BPL site online in VA with active solicitations [Archive]

n7spy

09-27-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,09:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck:

When was the BPL trial over in Middlesex/Boston done?? The only BPL trial in MA that I've been able to find out about was over in Agawam... which is, well, not in the same County.

Seriosuly, if you and your friend didn't get any discernable interference during the BPL trial in your region I'd love to know who did the trial. I want to contact them and find out what equipment they were using... so I can contact the power utility here in Arizona and make sure that they talk to the power utility in YOUR area so they can use the same equipment... it just might be that the people in your area have found the equipment that won't interfere with Ham Radio... then again... what are the odds that the one trial in YOUR region is the only one in the planet that has not caused harmful interference on HF?

Now... if you were talking about interference from power lines just as they are... well, I don't get interference from power lines either (and I have power lines less than 20 feet from my antennas at my QTH). Of course, there is not BPL trial in place nor scheduled for my area as of yet.

At any rate... awaiting your response. 73 DE N7SPY

KT0DD

09-27-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,09:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Hey Chuck,

Check the website of Verde Valley ARA at Cottonwood Ariz. if you dont think there's a problem. I'd say +30 over S9 is pretty severe interference. I believe it's www.vvara.org. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

WD8OQX

09-27-2004, 06:58 PM

---SOAPBOX MODE ON---

This JUNK has already been proofed not to work - just look at all the listings on ARRL that state that they had to shut down because of interference. (& you'll have to proof it by me to the contrary)

If it wasn't for the government pushing this it would have died by now. I wonder when it will be that they get it through there thick heads THAT THIS WON'T WORK?! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Fiber optics & cable wouldn't be any harder to install & around here anyway, is already installed in most areas, just needs to be expanded. I say if broadband is to be available to all then THIS is the way to go - NOT through the power lines.

---SOAPBOX MODE OFF---

K7JBQ

09-27-2004, 07:12 PM

Just found a good "letter to the editor" on the web:

http://readthehook.com/stories....fe.html (http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/09/16/letterBroadbandDoesInterfe.html)

73,
Bill

kb3hak

09-27-2004, 07:40 PM

It looks like the almighty dollar has won again. The FCC has sold us out.
I guess BPL will be hitting my area before too long if it's already in Va.
I bet you'll see one of the FCC reps on tech tv talking about it.Just like the rest of the big business in the world money talks and you know what walks!
The beginning of the end for ham radio.

kc2ftn

09-27-2004, 11:54 PM

They cancelled the BPL trial in Pen Yan, New York.
Seems there was too much interference!

Mike KC2FTN
www.hamwave.com

W0GI

09-27-2004, 11:56 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,09:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Oh Chuck,

Glad that you have enlightened us. Please contact the ARRL and let them know, so they stop wasting all that money.

And, don't forget to contact all of the hams that have reported 20+ over 9 interference. They obviously need to find medical people to help them with their hearing and eyesight problems.

Seriously, your post was a joke, right?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Bob

wd5dbc

09-28-2004, 02:48 AM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 26 2004,12:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
AA1MN never said that he was in the Nelson County BPL area. All he said was that he was near "power lines very much like that"

He also never said that he was near any BPL system.

hc

WR2E

09-28-2004, 02:49 AM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,05:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck,

Who did you say you work for ?

(JOKE!)

73 de Jeff

k0xu

09-28-2004, 04:25 AM

w0kiz

09-28-2004, 05:14 AM

If the public really understood BPL it would not exist. Once in place, it gives anyone with a computer who has placed a proper IC in your house, like a tv manufacturer, to monitor anything from the stations you watch to listening and watching you as you view the tv set. #The only way to stop the spying is to have your power lines bypassed, so that the internet connection can not be made. #Even your washing machine maker might be interested in how many loads of laundry you have done so he can sell the information to the detergent manufacturers. Just imagine a high speed internet connection into your house which does not only terminate in your compute. For those of you old enough to have read the book, it is "1984" all over again ( I think that was the right year for the title).
Bob W0KIZ

N4KDF

09-28-2004, 10:46 AM

I live in Central Va. and am served by CVEC, the electric Co-op. #The area that they are testing/providing BPL to is only about 45 minutes drive from me. #Since BPL is not in my area just yet I will be interested to see (hear?) the results when it does come. #Even though I am not active on the HF bands I do listen to SW and am not looking forward to any more interference. #I have enough from electric fences. #If and when BPL arrives I will try and post some info here with my observations.
FWIW: #Here is an interesting link: BPL INFO (http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/files/HomePlug_ARRL_Dec_2000.pdf)
Brian

09-28-2004, 02:08 PM

In regards to the post by K0KIZ...if what you are saying is possible, then by the same means viruses will eventually be able to come into your home via the electrical circuits and infect every microprocessor based appliance you have. Am I just being paranoic or will this be possible? Also, it seems the FCC is bent on ignoring science and it's own rules in favor of another money making scam and is diligently paving the way for the demise of a number of things, including HAM radio. It's time we retired the "evil empire" and chairman Powell (he's appointed) before it's too late. This all flys in the face of national security and homeland defense, but I guess the powers that be just regard us as a bunch of ignorant stiffs who don't know anything. '73 '

KF7CG

09-28-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote[/b] (K9REH @ Sep. 28 2004,07:08)]In regards to the post by K0KIZ...if what you are saying is possible, then by the same means viruses will eventually be able to come into your home via the electrical circuits and infect every microprocessor based appliance you have. #Am I just being paranoic or will this be possible? #Also, it seems the FCC is bent on ignoring science and it's own rules in favor of another money making scam and is diligently paving the way for the demise of a number of things, including HAM radio. #It's time we retired the "evil empire" and #chairman Powell (he's appointed) before it's too late. #This all flys in the face of national security and homeland defense, but I guess the powers that be just regard us as a bunch of ignorant stiffs who don't know anything. #'73 '
Thank goodness computer viruses like their biological counterparts are for the most part species (operating system) independent. The degree of coupling between the micro-processors and the powerline signals is also a factor.

Here is the other goody to savor. In many BPL systems you do not have to be a BPL subscriber to have the BPL signals running through your power lines. They are there but you just can't use them to connect without an account and the proper "modem."

Remember, cell phone viruses for the net enable cell phones now exist.

09-28-2004, 04:55 PM

How about this scenario.. a virus, trojan, etc. that metamorphizes depending on its environment, operating system. It comes in, analyzes the system and changes to infect the system.

W2NJS

09-28-2004, 07:58 PM

Before anyone gets too far ahead of things on this subject, let's take note of the objections raised regarding BPL by both NTIA and ARRL. Both have vested interests in HF radio and neither of them likes BPL. For you people who would brush off the serious nature of this controversy I would suggest that you first read up on the subject before you blow it off as meaningless. It's not meaningless, and it could very well affect you directly when and if you use the HF amateur bands. The BPL system uses unshielded conductors to transmit RF signals in a band between 3 and 80 mHz. The signals are supposed to be below a certain level, but the power companies so far have shown an unwillingness to follow the FCC regs and limit their signal levels.

My interest in this? My primary address is D.C., but I am also a resident of Nelson County, Virginia, and I'm also a cooperator/user of CVEC's electricity. My letter to the President of CVEC, Howard Scarboro, was mailed last week, and in it I attempted to make a non-techie, layman's, case against BPL. I'll probably get a polite brushoff, but the fight on this issue is just beginning, believe me. Should the FCC show any backbone on this matter, which to date they have not, the matter can probably be resolved in a way that makes everyone happy.

Stay tuned, and keep watching the ARRL site.

Tom Donohoe
W2NJS
Washington DC/Wintergreen VA

k7ov

09-29-2004, 03:33 PM

Based on what I see in the various posts and news reports, it may well boil down to interested and impacted parties pursuing a class action suit in Federal court against the FCC for deriliction of duty, and malfeasence of office. (God I hope I spelled those right!) and failure to properly protect impacted services from BPL emissions.

73 all,

Mike - K7OV, Renton, Wa

ae1x

09-29-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote[/b] (k7ov @ Sep. 29 2004,11:33)]Based on what I see in the various posts and news reports, it may well boil down to interested and impacted parties pursuing a class action suit in Federal court against the FCC for deriliction of duty, and malfeasence of office. (God I hope I spelled those right!) and failure to properly protect impacted services from BPL emissions.

73 all,

Mike - K7OV, Renton, Wa

I agree with you this point. The only thing at issue will be the term "The Public Interest". The commissioners have been very careful to use this term consistently. They believe that their action is "In the Public Interest".

Ken

09-29-2004, 07:29 PM

Folks,

There is a multi-pronged attack going on by hams and other affected parties.

1) Publicity and education of the informed, uninformed, and semi-informed to raise the awareness

2) Technical research and documentation to provide the technical folks with adequate resources to battle on the tech front.

3) Governmental relations and interactions

4) building a SOLID base and foundation for the court battle that will, most likely, occur over this. The MORE solid, unimpeachable, irrefutable information we have to walk into the Court with.. the better our chances are either in a first battle verdict OR on appeal.

Multi faceted it is.

K3FT

09-29-2004, 08:53 PM

One of the "draw cards" of the pro-BPL crowd is that it will make hi-speed internet service available to us country bumpkins that live out in the sticks. #Therein is the lie. #

The deployment cost per mile will be excessive.. Right now, we have in the ground, fiber optics cables that were installed three years ago... and are not used at all, for DSL, although that is what they were put there for. #SBC told me this by the way.

I can't get DSL, it's "not available in your area" says SBC. But what about those new fiber optics cables, says I. "There's not enough population in your area to support it even if everyone signs up", says SBC. #

So, I hope I will be spared at least for a time. #There is noise enough now, from the power company alone, which doesn't seem to get fixed no matter how much you complain. #

Someone tell me how to get a phone number for the FCC, so I can complain. I've looked in every directory I have been able to find with no luck. #

'73'
Rick
K9REH

W9GOC

09-29-2004, 11:42 PM

For the gentleman who wanted a phone # @ the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/contacts.html #has the names of the honchos, and a printable phone directory list.

Spend your telephone money wisely,
# #Frederick/W9GOC

w4rwo

09-30-2004, 06:48 PM

Well....I think we can all agree on this:
Whatever the BIG Boys with money want..the BIG BOYS with money will get..BPL included.

Makes me wonder..would it (BPL) interfere with tin cans and string? That may be the only way us girls will be able to communicate if BPL goes thru.

Robert
W4RWO

w8bq

09-30-2004, 08:02 PM

I wrote the company about this and thought I should share the reply.
For your consideration:

...While I have seen some of the information that the ARRL has been issuing, I can only report on what we are doing at CVEC. I understand you concerns and can assure you that we intend to offer a service that does not interfere with the amateur radio community or others on the radio spectrum.

We are a not-for-profit cooperative offering bpl with a vendor that called IBEC. They have conducted tests in Alabama with a local ham radio operator and we have met with the Albemarle ARC and plan to conduct with them with the local chapter as well.

· IBEC utilitizes a system that is fully Homeplug Powerline Alliance compliant, a technology standard that has been tested and demonstrated to be compatible with amateur radio equipment.

· IBEC operates at a very low power level with a potential 10 nano-watt impact at any given frequency. In addition, IBEC installs ferrites along the power line and neutral to contain and direct the flow of the bpl data, limiting the spread of an already low-power signal.

· IBEC is working to eliminate the ambient noise from sparking sources created on the CVEC distribution system, which will reduce noise levels for radio operators and bpl users alike.

· In addition to HPA testing, IBEC conducted field tests with a representative of the amateur radio community and submitted those results to the ARRL home office. While the ARRL is actively engaged in an effort to halt the deployment of bpl, their initial review and response indicated that the IBEC bpl system would not interfere with the activities of an amateur radio operator.

· The Albemarle Club also will conduct field tests with IBEC to verify the results of the earlier testing.

If you would like to discuss this information, please feel free to give me a call at your convenience.

Thank you.

Gregory J. Kelly

Member Services & Business Development Manager

Central Virginia Electric Cooperative

Lovingston, VA 22949

434-263-7627

gkelly@forcvec.com

Interested to hear others' comments.

Doc, W8BQ

YO3GNO

09-30-2004, 08:16 PM

Check this out:
http://www.drm.org/pdfs/newsevents/DRMStatementPLCseptember04.pdf
Seems that we are not alone.
What do you think?

ag4hy

09-30-2004, 11:30 PM

hello all;
If i remember correctly, arrl ask for a low band in the 136 kc range and it was turned down, because the power companies were using it for powerline control and expermenting, w e l l l ,guess what they were expermenting with..
so seems to me turn-a-bout is only fair play, namely low power, part 15 on 136 kcs.....
can't hurt to experment.

ab8rx

09-30-2004, 11:31 PM

This is a somewhat radical thought,and probably more of a retaliatory move, but so be it. #Since the FCC, NTIA, and the utilities seem to be of like mind in giving a wink and a nod to the BPL folks, regardless of what the Part 15 rules, etc., say with regard to interference,I've come to the conclusion that about the only thing we have left in our bag of tricks is this: #The part 15 rules state that those devices must "accept any interference, even that which causes undesired operation",etc... #I think that introducing the full legal limit for your transmissions into the mix, in order to overcome the spectrum pollution caused is going to do quite a bit of damage to the system. People aren't going to pay for something that is unreliable and poor signal quality caused by the interference may result in failure of the utilities to get enough subscribers to make the system profitable, resulting in moves to other,better, forms of internet providing modes. (I know, we aren't supposed to interfere with other services, and should stay on the high road. #However, bpl is not a licensed service, so please keep that in mind when you consider what I've written....)

ag4hy

09-30-2004, 11:46 PM

Quote[/b] (ab8rx @ Sep. 29 2004,17:31)]This is a somewhat radical thought,and probably more of a retaliatory move, but so be it. #Since the FCC, NTIA, and the utilities seem to be of like mind in giving a wink and a nod to the BPL folks, regardless of what the Part 15 rules, etc., say with regard to interference,I've come to the conclusion that about the only thing we have left in our bag of tricks is this: #The part 15 rules state that those devices must "accept any interference, even that which causes undesired operation",etc... #I think that introducing the full legal limit for your transmissions into the mix, in order to overcome the spectrum pollution caused is going to do quite a bit of damage to the system. People aren't going to pay for something that is unreliable and poor signal quality caused by the interference may result in failure of the utilities to get enough subscribers to make the system profitable, resulting in moves to other,better, forms of internet providing modes. (I know, we aren't supposed to interfere with other services, and should stay on the high road. #However, bpl is not a licensed service, so please keep that in mind when you consider what I've written....)
ab8rx
maybe we could get to know your typical neighborhood cber that just loves sport radio(read key downs) i have been to a couple and believe you me "do-not have any piece of radio equipment any-where near the place it is a bunch of guys and gals, yup you read right gals, get to gether and see who has the mostes with the bestes, 5000 watts isn't unusual and from a mobile. sooooo just think what that would be like to try and even find bpl in all that even if it survived the ordeal, i have a old friend that has a top of the line cb that he went to a key-down with and left it connected to his 102" steel whip, oh well, "Gee Dad it was a Werlitsera. tch, tch, tch. my,my what a mess inside of that radios circuits

10-01-2004, 01:34 PM

Quote[/b] (w8bq @ Sep. 30 2004,13:02)]I wrote the company about this and thought I should share the reply.
For your consideration:

...While I have seen some of the information that the ARRL has been issuing, I can only report on what we are doing at CVEC. #I understand you concerns and can assure you that we intend to offer a service that does not interfere with the amateur radio community or others on the radio spectrum. #

We are a not-for-profit cooperative offering bpl with a vendor that called IBEC. #They have conducted tests in Alabama with a local ham radio operator and we have met with the Albemarle ARC and plan to conduct with them with the local chapter as well.

· # # # # IBEC utilitizes a system that is fully Homeplug Powerline Alliance compliant, a technology standard that has been tested and demonstrated to be compatible with amateur radio equipment. #

· # # # # IBEC operates at a very low power level with a potential 10 nano-watt impact at any given frequency. #In addition, IBEC installs ferrites along the power line and neutral to contain and direct the flow of the bpl data, limiting the spread of an already low-power signal.

· # # # # IBEC is working to eliminate the ambient noise from sparking sources created on the CVEC distribution system, which will reduce noise levels for radio operators and bpl users alike.

· # # # # In addition to HPA testing, IBEC conducted field tests with a representative of the amateur radio community and submitted those results to the ARRL home office. #While the ARRL is actively engaged in an effort to halt the deployment of bpl, their initial review and response indicated that the IBEC bpl system would not interfere with the activities of an amateur radio operator.

· # # # # The Albemarle Club also will conduct field tests with IBEC to verify the results of the earlier testing.

If you would like to discuss this information, please feel free to give me a call at your convenience.

Thank you.

Gregory J. Kelly

Member Services & Business Development Manager

Central Virginia Electric Cooperative

Lovingston, VA 22949

434-263-7627

gkelly@forcvec.com

Interested to hear others' comments.

Doc, W8BQ
10 Nanowatts? That's -50 dbm. Unless they are talking about the level actually on the line, that's a huge signal to typically take out of the air and would be s-9 + 60 on most rigs. I hope they are talking dirctly coupled here...
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

KF7CG

10-01-2004, 06:26 PM

That is about right for BPL. The Part 15 limits translate to about that and at least 20 db over S9. So he is talking about radiated power.

That is low to him. Remember he is used to taking hundreds of megawatts (100 to greater than 800 megawatts electric for large electrical generating stations), so 10 nano-watts seems incredibly small to him, not like an ear-splitting noise.

ae1x

10-01-2004, 07:46 PM

Quote[/b] (KF7CG @ Oct. 01 2004,14:26)]That is about right for BPL. The Part 15 limits translate to about that and at least 20 db over S9. So he is talking about radiated power.

That is low to him. Remember he is used to taking hundreds of megawatts (100 to greater than 800 megawatts electric for large electrical generating stations), so 10 nano-watts seems incredibly small to him, not like an ear-splitting noise.

You see, this is the crux of this problem. We are radio engineering types and we understand what this level of signal means in terms of its effect on our environment. Electrical Power types have no conception about power levels this small.

I don't think the FCC commissioners appreciate this either, but for other reasons. They are schooled in the law and not engineering. This is a matter of engineering. Futher, I don't think those at the FCC that are engineering savy are going to risk their positions to tell these commissioners the truth. This environment is too charged at this time and an outside force may be the only just way to resolve it.

Ken

kg6amw

10-01-2004, 08:18 PM

If you want to read something interesting, go to the FCC website and check out the correspondence filed on 9/30/04 by the NTIA under BPL Notice of Proposed Rule Making File 04-37 . (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516487941). #In so many words, we support the FCC on BPL implementation and oh, by the way we would like a 2.4 mile BPL exclusion zone around aeronautical communications stations and a 45 mile BPL exclusion zone around astronomy and weak signal research stations. #What problem, I don't see a problem.

KG6AMW

ni4jm

10-01-2004, 09:45 PM

I have to wonder why it is insisted upon by the FCC that BPL be allowed to deploy. Within the last 2 months during the crazy hurricane season here in Florida, amateur radio has done great and wonderful things for the community. Amateur radio was and is the leg of communications to stand on during these times of crisis. Why pollute it? Why destroy it?

When all else fails...AMATEUR RADIO PREVAILS.

- KE4EAO

ae1x

10-02-2004, 12:38 AM

Quote[/b] (ke4eao @ Oct. 01 2004,17:45)]I have to wonder why it is insisted upon by the FCC that BPL be allowed to deploy. Within the last 2 months during the crazy hurricane season here in Florida, amateur radio has done great and wonderful things for the community. Amateur radio was and is the leg of communications to stand on during these times of crisis. Why pollute it? Why destroy it?

When all else fails...AMATEUR RADIO PREVAILS.

- KE4EAO

The problem is that this is HF we are talking about. The FCC thinks that amateur radio should be a VHF/UHF centeric service. HF is passe' as far as they are concerned and that BPL is a great fit for this apparent waste land. They can rid themselves of all the interference and complaints all at the same time.

KT0DD

10-02-2004, 09:04 PM

If a 45 mile "Quiet Zone" is required around radio astronomy, then let's all get the minimum equipment necessary to listen to the 1450MHZ Hydrogen Line, and apply for our own exclusion zones. I think a TS2000 Kenwood can be ordered that goes clear to 2.4GHZ. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif 73.

n7spy

10-03-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote[/b] (kg6amw @ Oct. 01 2004,13:18)]... we would like a 2.4 mile BPL exclusion zone around aeronautical communications stations and a 45 mile BPL exclusion zone around astronomy and weak signal research stations.
2.4 Mile Exclusion Zone from Aeronautical Comm. Stations...

I wonder if an airport's control tower would be included in these Exclusion Zones... because the Aircraft Bands are not that far from 2-meters... could it be that BPL ALSO interferes with VHF?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

And if they go for the 45-mile Exclusion Zone for Astronomy... boy, there goes BPL for Tucson, AZ... and the entire Big Island of Hawaii... and the areas near Mt. St. Helens (if you live in that area and are told to leave... SCRAM!!)... hmmm.. there would be all sorts of rural areas that BPL can't get too...

These recommendations just might be what drives BPL out of circulation.. WOOOHHHHOOOOO!!!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

wb6bcn

10-03-2004, 03:46 PM

BPL can work if they do just one thing. The solution is so simple, minimal expense would be involved. Basically DSL and BPL are the same to a certain degree. No one has issues with DSL, except maybe they don't have local access.

Why doesn't DSL cause harmful interference? Because it is run on balanced lines. If you run 1,000 feet of ladder line and put 100 watts in on one end and a 100 watt resistor at the other end the majority of the energy goes into the resistor. If you run 100 watts into 1,000 feet of a single conductor, guess what happens. That's right, Instant antenna. Maybe not the most efficient antenna at all frequencies, but very efficient at others.

It is my understanding all the BPL systems use a single wire against an earth ground. If they were to employ balanced lines center tapped against an earth ground it may work. Not exactly rocket science.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

ae1x

10-03-2004, 05:46 PM

Quote[/b] (wb6bcn @ Oct. 03 2004,11:46)]It is my understanding all the BPL systems use a single wire against an earth ground. #If they were to employ balanced lines center tapped against an earth ground it may work. #Not exactly rocket science.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Good idea, but it will require the power companies to run new cables. The propose of BPL as configured is to take advantage of the infrastructure in place and that is the single wire lines against ground.

The proper solution to universally available internet is in the Wi-Fi, WiMAX, and fiber cable systems. This system is a simple means to provide a new revenue stream for power companies that would be independent of regulators. The profits would directly improve the bottom lines of the power companies, ofcourse this presupposes that this will be profitable.

There's another more pressing issue for the power companies. BPL will provide a method for them to gather value information about the amounts and times of peak usage in each home. The claim is that this system will permit them to be more efficient in locating outages and sources of electrical noise. It will also allow them to remotely terminate service and read meters. These applications are the real reason they are hot for this system. The PLC system they have now does not have sufficient bandwidth to provide all of these services and the internet.

Ken

KC0NPF

10-03-2004, 07:41 PM

ummm, won't even 100w destroy the sig completely if it's on an unbalanced, unshielded cable... BPL has been tested in our area, I believe that a transmission on 17m totally and completely wiped out the signal, and that was barefoot 100w from a MOBILE (read: inefficient antenna).

Some guys from the local club have taken measurements and the noise level all depends on the traffic level. Here: http://www.rarchams.org/bpl.htm#measurements

KC0NPF

10-04-2004, 02:03 AM

Quote[/b] (W2NJS @ Sep. 28 2004,12:58)]Before anyone gets too far ahead of things on this subject, let's take note of the objections raised regarding BPL by both NTIA and ARRL. #Both have vested interests in HF radio and neither of them likes BPL. #For you people who would brush off the serious nature of this controversy I would suggest that you first read up on the subject before you blow it off as meaningless. #It's not meaningless, and it could very well affect you directly when and if you use the HF amateur bands. #The BPL system uses unshielded conductors to transmit RF signals in a band between 3 and 80 mHz. #The signals are supposed to be below a certain level, but the power companies so far have shown an unwillingness to follow the FCC regs and limit their signal levels. #

My interest in this? #My primary address is D.C., but I am also a resident of Nelson County, Virginia, and I'm also a cooperator/user of CVEC's electricity. #My letter to the President of CVEC, Howard Scarboro, was mailed last week, and in it I attempted to make a non-techie, layman's, case against BPL. #I'll probably get a polite brushoff, but the fight on this issue is just beginning, believe me. #Should the FCC show any backbone on this matter, which to date they have not, the matter can probably be resolved in a way that makes everyone happy. #

Stay tuned, and keep watching the ARRL site.

Tom Donohoe
W2NJS
Washington DC/Wintergreen VA
AMEN BROTHER..

-Richard Rivenbark (KI4EKI)

kg6amw

10-04-2004, 02:47 PM

If you want to read the NTIA’s request for exclusion see
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=651648 7941 # If really want to see a very good summary of the pro position for BPL see the Powerline Communications Association letter from their attorney to the FCC filed on
10/1/04. http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod....=651649 (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=651649)
0476 # # # #Its the same old BS. #Oh, we are just a basic new technology and oh please give us a free pass before anybody see what a mess we are going to create. # At least they recognize amateur radio as their biggest problem in this matter. That’s because they will be interfering primarily with two groups (SWL and Hams) and not anyone else especially in light of the NTIA exclusion request. #They in essence want one thing. Give us a free pass while we raise hell in the HF bands so we can make money. Also make it really hard for SWL and ham radio operators to track down BPL interference sources and file complaints. #So here is how the complaint process will unfold. What interference. I don’t hear anything. #Oh that. Well you really didn’t tell us specially what pole it was coming from and you failed to complete form 30-B with the independent confirmation data. #You have to start the 30 day process all over again. #Sorry. By the way, make sure it includes latitude and longitude of #the offending pole. #Pay attention FCC. #Your about to be taken in.

KG6AMW

ae1x

10-04-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote[/b] (kg6amw @ Oct. 04 2004,10:47)]If you want to read the NTIA’s request for exclusion see
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=651648 7941 # If really want to see a very good summary of the pro position for BPL see the Powerline Communications Association letter from their attorney to the FCC filed on
10/1/04. http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod....=651649 (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=651649)
0476 # # # #Its the same old BS. #Oh, we are just a basic new technology and oh please give us a free pass before anybody see what a mess we are going to create. # At least they recognize amateur radio as their biggest problem in this matter. That’s because they will be interfering primarily with two groups (SWL and Hams) and not anyone else especially in light of the NTIA exclusion request. #They in essence want one thing. Give us a free pass while we raise hell in the HF bands so we can make money. Also make it really hard for SWL and ham radio operators to track down BPL interference sources and file complaints. #So here is how the complaint process will unfold. What interference. I don’t hear anything. #Oh that. Well you really didn’t tell us specially what pole it was coming from and you failed to complete form 30-B with the independent confirmation data. #You have to start the 30 day process all over again. #Sorry. By the way, make sure it includes latitude and longitude of #the offending pole. #Pay attention FCC. #Your about to be taken in.

KG6AMW
Isn't this the type of recommendation the FCC has been looking for so they can tuck it us? It's strange that this proposal was only made at the 11th hour. I'm surprised they didn't make it during the actual open period or during the NOI when it was the proper time for such proposals. I guess they just didn't want anyone to hear it then when comments and counter proposals could be added to the record and proper debate engaged in for the sound development of regulations. This is just another clear indication of the subverted nature this action has had since it inception.

They are defining themselves as a service despite the fact that they can not be a service because they have no allocated frequencies and no licensing requirements. They still think they are and want all the protections of a service including recognition as a co-primary user of spectrum to which they are not entitled under international law.

It appears the FCC is using this process to reallocate all of the HF spectrum on a primary basis to AccessBPL as long as they promise to protect certain critical services. The other users be damned.

Ken

aa1mn

10-04-2004, 08:28 PM

Quote[/b] ]When all else fails...AMATEUR RADIO PREVAILS.

There's a relatively new invention called "cell phones" that are just a tad bit more prevelant than amateur radio when it comes to prevailing when all else fails.

There's also another, more popular, radio communications available to the general public that you may not be aware of called CB ... that's stands for Citizens Band, which also prevails when all else fails.

Oh, did I fail to mention FRS?

Chuck, AA1MN

AD6WZ

10-04-2004, 09:25 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 04 2004,13:28)]There's a relatively new invention called "cell phones" that are just a tad bit more prevelant than amateur radio when it comes to prevailing when all else fails.

There's also another, more popular, radio communications available to the general public that you may not be aware of called CB ... that's stands for Citizens Band, which also prevails when all else fails.

Oh, did I fail to mention FRS?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif What planet is this guy from? When forest fires hit southern California, most cell towers were down. Some HAM repeaters continued to operate, and HF was still good. I think you will find that in other disaster areas, cell phones worked sporadically or not at all.
Yes, CB works, but only the illegal stations can work any distance to speak of.
FRS is even more limited.
Amateur radio still rules, when it comes to working all the time. How many CBers have backup systems and backup power to keep them operating?
C'mon, give us a break. Maybe you should turn in your ticket and stay with cell phones and CBs, if you feel that strongly that ham radio is unimportant and marginally useful in emergencies. I don't think you will find either the facts or other hams agreeing with you.

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 11:43 AM

Quote[/b] ]What planet is this guy from?

Quote[/b] ]Maybe you should turn in your ticket and stay with cell phones and CBs, if you feel that strongly that ham radio is unimportant and marginally useful in emergencies.

Ham radio isn't unimportant but responses such as that are. With attitudes like this amongst the amateur radio community yes I will let my license expire and encourage those interested who have not yet gotten theirs not to ... being able to display this kind of ignorance will be a very persuasive tool for doing so.

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

10-05-2004, 05:20 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 04 2004,13:28)]Quote[/b] ]When all else fails...AMATEUR RADIO PREVAILS.

There's a relatively new invention called "cell phones" that are just a tad bit more prevelant than amateur radio when it comes to prevailing when all else fails.

There's also another, more popular, radio communications available to the general public that you may not be aware of called CB ... that's stands for Citizens Band, which also prevails when all else fails.

Oh, did I fail to mention FRS?

Chuck, AA1MN
This from someone who has been involved in emergency communications for 30 years and has kept up with the times:

Fact 1: Cell phones are the first to go in an emergency. It is foolish to rely on them. They also do not have multiple unit communications capability (often valuable in an emergency). The single point to single point nature severely limits their effectiveness in an emergency, even in the rare case when they are still operational.

Fact 2: CB is basically useless because of the illegal operation, clutter, and lack of backup systems as well as the shortage of trained, capable operators. Also, today, the rare legal operation is worth about a mile, tops.

Fact 3: FRS is valuable only in about a 1/4 mile radius, severely limiting their effectiveness. They are good for onsite intercom type operations, but that is about all.

It is amazing to me that anyone could seriously mention cell phones or CB being useful in an emergency.

Amateur radio is still the best, and no other service remotely approaches the reliability of Amateur radio in an emergency. No other service offers the ingenuity of the average ham in an emergency, either (in fact, they are not allowed to, by law).

That is fact, and any emergency professional that fails to recognize those facts is guilty of dereliction of duty, in my opinion.

Question: Why would one suggest resigning from ham radio when confronted with facts about the service?

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote[/b] ]Question: Why would one suggest resigning from ham radio when confronted with facts about the service?

1. I've rarely known cell phones to go under any conditions, emergency or not ... I've known them to be used in a variety of emergency situations; cell phones provide a directly to emergency professionals such as police, fire, and paramedics -- amateur radio does not.

2. Citizen Band radio provides is much more accessable to a broader base of on-air listeners who have direct access to reaching emergency professionals such as police, fire, and paramedics since they do not require a license to own and operate and the equipment is not as cost prohibitive as ham -- amateur radio does not.

3. FRS is much more accessable than amateur radio toa broader base of on-air listeners who have direct acces to reaching emergency professionals such as police, fire and paramedics since no license or testing is required to own and operated and the equipment is not as cost prohibitive as ham -- amateur radio does not.

Why would one choose an ineffective means of communications when one's life or property is possibly at stake?

Having two members of my immediate family involved in the fire department I can assure you that none of them have ever used or been licensed for or interested in amateur radio and neither has 99.9% of the people on the fire departments they are associated with ... if this is the case are these emergency professionals quilty of dereliction of duty?

I will be printing out the reply to your post along with your name and address to show to them and the people on the force they are associated with, by the way.

Now, what kind of emergency professional did you say you were again?

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

10-05-2004, 07:15 PM

1. I've rarely known cell phones to go under any conditions, emergency or not ... I've known them to be used in a variety of emergency situations; cell phones provide a directly to emergency professionals such as police, fire, and paramedics -- amateur radio does not.

Obviously you have not been involved in a large disaster. #Talk to some of the folks in Florida. #There are also the other problem I stated, if they do stay up. #Even on ordinary days, cell phones are not 100%. #Ever. #Example: #there are many places I drive that there is no cell service... but 2M is 100%.

2. Citizen Band radio provides is much more accessable to a broader base of on-air listeners who have direct access to reaching emergency professionals such as police, fire, and paramedics since they do not require a license to own and operate and the equipment is not as cost prohibitive as ham -- amateur radio does not.

No real access to the public. #CB is so rife with garbage that most members of the public have turned them off, or junked them. #No on-air listeners, really. #CB was effective in the 60s... not today.

3. #FRS is much more accessable than amateur radio toa broader base of on-air listeners who have direct acces to reaching emergency professionals such as police, fire and paramedics since no license or testing is required to own and operated and the equipment is not as cost prohibitive as ham -- amateur radio does not.

FRS is, as I stated, extremely short range. #Of no real value in an emergency. #I have never even heard of an emergency service monitoring FRS. #If you have, I would like to know what channel, so I can call if I need. #And there is no "base of on-air listeners".

Why would one choose an ineffective means of communications when one's life or property is possibly at stake?

Exactly - why would you choose ineffective CB or cell, or FRS?

Having two members of my immediate family involved in the fire department I can assure you that none of them have ever used or been licensed for or interested in amateur radio and neither has 99.9% of the people on the fire departments they are associated with ... if this is the case are these emergency professionals quilty of dereliction of duty?

Anyone who refuses to use the best, when it is available, is shirking his/her duty. #Whether your family, or any other, or any firefighter is a ham is irrelevant to this discussion. #We're talking about using a service, not getting licensed in one. #I know quite a few law enforcement professionals who are licensed hams, but I didn't mention it because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I will be printing out the reply to your post along with your name and address to show to them and the people on the force they are associated with, by the way.

For what purpose? #Hopefully you would be using my post to educate them on the reliability of the various means available, but I doubt it, given the attitude I see.

Now, what kind of emergency professional did you say you were again?

I didn't. #But for the sake of argument, list law enforcement, emergency preparedness, safety professional, and many years of communications service. #I am retired, but I will never retire from service to my nation and community.

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 07:46 PM

Quote[/b] ] didn't. But for the sake of argument, list law enforcement, emergency preparedness, safety professional, and many years of communications service. I am retired, but I will never retire from service to my nation and community.

In other words are you saying that you are not now and never have held qualifications for active duty as a law enforement professional, EMT, fireman, or any other qualified service of the like?

Yes, that seems to tell it all.

The members of my family are and were qualifed for the positions the hold and held, one of them having been the fire chief of the town I live in for many years.

I also am on close terms with two former policemen of this town both of whom wore Badge #1 for having been on the force longer than the other officers.

Neither of the above groups make use of amateur radio as the communications equipment they use moves such so far down on this list it's not even on considered.

The only dereliction of duty I see here would be your big mouth with nothing to back it up with unless you're willing and able to state what training you have that can match or exceed those mentioned above ... but you're not up to the task are you?

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

10-05-2004, 07:48 PM

CB: Amateur radio of the 1950s (AM), but without the training and discipline.

FRS: Amateur radio of the 1970s (FM), but without the range, or operator skill.

Cells: Amateur radio of the 1980s, but without multiple station operational capability, and not as reliable.

I respectfully suggest that emergency services get into the 21st century, with modern Amateur radio.

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 08:00 PM

Quote[/b] ]I respectfully suggest that emergency services get into the 21st century, with modern Amateur radio.

I respectfully suggest that they already are which is why law enforcement, fire departments and other emergency services do not require amateur radios or their operators to aid them in doing their job.

I am not a qualified emergency professional but, knowing many who are and the communication equipment they are currently using, it must be said that they are, for the most part, doing a superior job of it.

My nephew, currently a high school senior, has forgotten more about emergency communications currently being used than you have ever known as he has taken the time to inquire about the subject from true professionals such as firefighters, policement and EMTs.

You, sir, apparantly are too lazy or mentally lax to do so.

Your bluff has been called, now kindly go back doing what you do best ... nothing.

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

10-05-2004, 08:02 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 05 2004,12:46)]Quote[/b] ] didn't. #But for the sake of argument, list law enforcement, emergency preparedness, safety professional, and many years of communications service. #I am retired, but I will never retire from service to my nation and community.

In other words are you saying that you are not now and never have held qualifications for active duty as a law enforement professional, EMT, fireman, or any other qualified service of the like?[/QUOTE]
No, Chuck, that is not what I said. I said law enforcement, didn't you read it all? I carried a badge for 8 years, and held the rank of Captain by the end of that time. The badge is hanging on the wall above this computer. I also retired from safety official for a major chemical company, and if you don't think they have to plan for emergencies in great detail, and work in close concert with firefighters, and other emergency preparedness officials, you aren't up on the risks!!

But, to you, only a paid firefighter can discuss the relative quality of communications. I don't think many will agree, but you are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine, also, no matter what you say. And mine are based on many years of first hand experience.

K4JF

10-05-2004, 08:11 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 05 2004,13:00)]Quote[/b] ]I respectfully suggest that emergency services get into the 21st century, with modern Amateur radio.

I respectfully suggest that they already are which is why law enforcement, fire departments and other emergency services do not require amateur radios or their operators to aid them in doing their job.

I am not a qualified emergency professional but, knowing many who are and the communication equipment they are currently using, it must be said that they are, for the most part, doing a superior job of it.

My nephew, currently a high school senior, has forgotten more about emergency communications currently being #used than you have ever known as he has taken the time to inquire about the subject from true professionals such as firefighters, policement and #EMTs.

You, sir, apparantly are too lazy or mentally lax to do so.

Your bluff has been called, now kindly go back doing what you do best ... nothing.

Chuck, AA1MN
No bluff, Chuck. Experience. And far more than any dozen "high school" kids.

My statements agree with the vast majority of emergency professionals in this country. Recently in Florida, Amateur radio was the ONLY communications onsite, and in-and-out. Same in the Carribian. Just the facts.

If one has a license, and is not actively involved in emergency preparedness, then he/she is neglecting one of the major reasons for the issuance of that license. (Note that I am not making personal statements.)

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 08:17 PM

[/QUOTE] didn't. #But for the sake of argument, list law enforcement, emergency preparedness, safety professional, and many years of communications service. #I am retired, but I will never retire from service to my nation and community.Quote[/b] ]

That is what you DID say and was not specific in the fact that you held a badge in that capacity ... I can only imagine what that sort of lack of specifics might have accomplished while you were on the force, sir, such as resulting in how many criminals getting off on technicalities?

Anyone who refuses to use the best, when it is available, is shirking his/her duty. #Whether your family, or any other, or any firefighter is a ham is irrelevant to this discussion. [QUOTE]

I'll be sure to pass this along to the police officers, both retired such as yourself, and those currently on the force whom I know how "relevant" they are and ask them how they feel about having "shirked their duty" over the years for not making amateur radio a part of it ... I wonder if they'll find it as insulting as I did?

Chuck, AA1MN

N1FSX

10-05-2004, 08:20 PM

All I know on this issue is this: I purchased one of those "wireless" cameras that looks like a flood light. Had the thing turned on in my home for quite some time. After a while, I shut it off pending a better application for it. In the meantime, my lovely YL inadvertantly turned it on (wallswitch). I started having this "mystery" noise on 15 meters.. In fact I could here it 1/4 a mile away from my QTH!!!!

I took me a while to isolate the noise and sure enough, it was that darn camera operating over one phase of my household wiring and it wiped me out on 15 meters (S-7).

If this is an example of any signal being propogated in this manner and the power companies go forth with it, we're all done.

73
Chris

ae1x

10-05-2004, 09:02 PM

didn't. #But for the sake of argument, list law enforcement, emergency preparedness, safety professional, and many years of communications service. #I am retired, but I will never retire from service to my nation and community.Quote[/b] ]

That is what you DID say and was not specific in the fact that you held a badge in that capacity ... I can only imagine what that sort of lack of specifics might have accomplished while you were on the force, sir, such as resulting in how many criminals getting off on technicalities?

Anyone who refuses to use the best, when it is available, is shirking his/her duty. #Whether your family, or any other, or any firefighter is a ham is irrelevant to this discussion. Quote ]

I'll be sure to pass this along to the police officers, both retired such as yourself, and those currently on the force whom I know how "relevant" they are and ask them how they feel about having "shirked their duty" over the years for not making amateur radio a part of it ... I wonder if they'll find it as insulting as I did?

Chuck, AA1MN[/b]
Chuck,

I don't understand your anger with the amateur radio service and its association with local emergency response agencies. Amateur radio is not and never has been a first level response service. It has always been a pool of available talent that has augmented local emergeny officials when all else fails.

I spent 20+ years as the Civil Defense/Emergency Management Agency Communications Officer. I worked with Fire Chiefs, Police Chiefs, and other city department heads. I provided RACES traffic for the Civil Defense Director and set up the Hospital to Ambulance Radio Emergency system for the local volunteer ambulance squad.

We used amateurs and amateur radio for one specific task during one specific emergency. The Blizzard of 1978. There was not enough personnel and radio equipment around to handle all the tasks that need doing. The amateurs provided the needed skills, interest, and organization needed to get the job done. This is the history of amateur emergency response and hopefully it will remain that way.

For everyday work, the proper dedicated systems are in place to provide coverage for most emergencies and there is no need for amateurs. Amateurs become important when cells have failed or become overloaded, NexTel fails, regular communcations system are down, and regular services are overloaded because of shear volume.

Professional firefighters and police officers generally have a distain for any outside assistance. This attitude is union related. If there is a job that needs doing, the community should hire and train a union member to fill the position. They see volunteers as unfair competition for work they get paid extra to perform. It is wrong to prevent people from receiving pay to use free workers no matter how well trained.

If you want a true view of amateurs and what they can and do do in the public interest contact the agencies involved in the handling of this summers spate of hurricanes and those that responded to 9/11. They can tell you the true value of amateur radio when the chips are down.

Ken

aa1mn

10-05-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote[/b] ]If one has a license, and is not actively involved in emergency preparedness, then he/she is neglecting one of the major reasons for the issuance of that license. (Note that I am not making personal statements.)

I'm glad you qualified that as a personal statement as I became involved in amateur radio based on an interest in commumications. I realize and applaud those who apply amateur radio for emergency preparedness but, for the most part, they are not trained to the degree that a law enforcement or firefighting official is trained in dealing with same said emergencies. Please note that I do not intended to demean you either, only the assertion that most amateurs are on par with police, firefighting or EMT personnel.

Unless an amateur radio operator shares those special skills with one, some or all of the above, we are there to lend support in the capacities that our own personal skills allow. In other words, an untrained amateur operator should not take the law into their own hands, attempt to deal with a medical emergency by themselves, or attempt to put out fires on their own unless extenuating circumstances exist that would warrant such an action.

The first logical thing to do would be to contact the properly trained persons for such an instance and, in most cases, amateur radio is usually not the most effiecent means of doing so and making it sound as though it usually is, in my view, is misleading.

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand your anger with the amateur radio service and its association with local emergency response agencies. Amateur radio is not and never has been a first level response service. It has always been a pool of available talent that has augmented local emergeny officials when all else fails.

As you can see from my above statements that is exactly what I am saying. I am not angry with amateur radio service and its relation with emergency response at all. It is the insinuation that amateur radio is always the most effective means of communication when, usually, it is not that should not be put forth to mislead the public.

I remember the Blizzard of '78 quite well and have no doubt that amateurs helped in their own way. At the time, however, I didn't even know what amateur radio was and got through the "week that wasn't" just fine without it or having inkling to its existence. I do remember the town plows out there doing their thing but that's about it.

It's the old saying "I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I'm not." Let's let amateur radio be what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

Hope this clears things up on my end gentlemen.

Chuck, AA1MN

K4JF

10-06-2004, 01:21 AM

Quote[/b] (ae1x @ Oct. 05 2004,14:02)]Chuck,

I don't understand your anger with the amateur radio service and its association with local emergency response agencies. Amateur radio is not and never has been a first level response service. It has always been a pool of available talent that has augmented local emergeny officials when all else fails.

I spent 20+ years as the Civil Defense/Emergency Management Agency Communications Officer. I worked with Fire Chiefs, Police Chiefs, and other city department heads. I provided RACES traffic for the Civil Defense Director and set up the Hospital to Ambulance Radio Emergency system for the local volunteer ambulance squad.

We used amateurs and amateur radio for one specific task during one specific emergency. The Blizzard of 1978. There was not enough personnel and radio equipment around to handle all the tasks that need doing. The amateurs provided the needed skills, interest, and organization needed to get the job done. This is the history of amateur emergency response and hopefully it will remain that way.

For everyday work, the proper dedicated systems are in place to provide coverage for most emergencies and there is no need for amateurs. Amateurs become important when cells have failed or become overloaded, NexTel fails, regular communcations system are down, and regular services are overloaded because of shear volume.

Professional firefighters and police officers generally have a distain for any outside assistance. This attitude is union related. If there is a job that needs doing, the community should hire and train a union member to fill the position. They see volunteers as unfair competition for work they get paid extra to perform. It is wrong to prevent people from receiving pay to use free workers no matter how well trained.

If you want a true view of amateurs and what they can and do do in the public interest contact the agencies involved in the handling of this summers spate of hurricanes and those that responded to 9/11. They can tell you the true value of amateur radio when the chips are down.

Ken
Thank you, Ken, for backing up my statement(s). I have seen many cases myself, where hams came through when all else failed... when the phones were out, the regular radios were overloaded, the assisting agencies were on different frequencies, and all the other things that happen in real emergencies. And that is all I said - that hams were usually the best backup resource when all else fails.

Emergency resources are duty bound to serve the public in the best way possible. Relying on untrained backup when trained, licensed and resourceful people are available is not serving the public.

Amateur Radio Operators in a particular area may or may not be equipped, trained and prepared to serve. If they are not, then they should develop a local ARES and get prepared, but no responsible public servant should reject them outright, either from previous opinion, prejudice against volunteers, or lack of knowledge. They should at least investigate the possibility.

And, yes, they should know the true value of Amateur radio when the chips are down. That is all I have said, and my specific experience is irrelevant. The facts are the facts.

aa1mn

10-06-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote[/b] ]If you want a true view of amateurs and what they can and do do in the public interest contact the agencies involved in the handling of this summers spate of hurricanes and those that responded to 9/11. They can tell you the true value of amateur radio when the chips are down.
[QUOTE]

The Blizzard of 1978. There was not enough personnel and radio equipment around to handle all the tasks that need doing. The amateurs provided the needed skills, interest, and organization needed to get the job done.[QUOTE]

With all due respect, were either one of you in New York on 9/11 to observe what services amateurs provided during the emergency or are you basing it on hearsay since neither one of you is from South Carolina and the other from Massachusetts?

I heard or saw nothing about amateurs aiding during 9/11 just about firefighters and police and EMTs.

What needed skills did amateurs provide during the Blizzard of '78? #Having lived through that myself there was never any mention of it then and I certainlys did not witness them plowing the roads for the town ... specifics please, such as callsigns of those made such contributions and what they contributed please?

Chuck, AA1MN

ae1x

10-06-2004, 05:42 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 06 2004,10:55)]Quote[/b] ]If you want a true view of amateurs and what they can and do do in the public interest contact the agencies involved in the handling of this summers spate of hurricanes and those that responded to 9/11. They can tell you the true value of amateur radio when the chips are down.
[QUOTE]

The Blizzard of 1978. There was not enough personnel and radio equipment around to handle all the tasks that need doing. The amateurs provided the needed skills, interest, and organization needed to get the job done.

With all due respect, were either one of you in New York on 9/11 to observe what services amateurs provided during the emergency or are you basing it on hearsay since neither one of you is from South Carolina and the other from Massachusetts?

I heard or saw nothing about amateurs aiding during 9/11 just about firefighters and police and EMTs.

What needed skills did amateurs provide during the Blizzard of '78? #Having lived through that myself there was never any mention of it then and I certainlys did not witness them plowing the roads for the town ... specifics please, such as callsigns of those made such contributions and what they contributed please?

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck,

It will be very difficult to pull all the names and calls that aided with our Blizzard Effort in our city. What I can tell you is that we placed amateurs with 4x4 drivers and snowmobiles so we could direct them to places where they were needed. They assisted with the coordination of these vehicles for picking nurses, doctors, and other people needing rides to critical work assignments. They also were also to dispatch these vehicles to pick and deliver medicines from local pharmacies when needed. They used my Clegg FM-27B in our EOC for the fixed station using our RACES antenna and each used his own amateur equipment to provide the mobile end of the path. I provided coverage of the amateur station for at least a part of the emergency and other amateurs relieved me. I later left when I became ill.

Amateurs continue to prepare for and participate in major disaster relief efforts in our city. I'm no longer directly involved in this effort, but I participate when I can. It is major disasters where amateurs and their skills are the most useful to public officials.

As an amateur radio operator and city official, I was trained as a First Responder. This is the same level of medical and emergency training that our local police receive. The course was taught by our local fire department. Many amateurs have this same level of training and are respected by the local officials with which they train. We are never a first line of defense in emergencies, but are always ready, will, and able to do those tasks assigned using our radio equipment when needed and just our bodies at other times.

Radio amateurs serve as trained Sky Warn stations in service to the NWS. These stations report local weather conditions to the local NWS station to confirm for them the sensor readings that they have and report severe weather that bares watching. In specific, many serve to report torandoes before they are seen on radar and give the NWS valuable information not available in any other way in a timely manner.

I think there are other activities that license amateurs can and do play important roles. You must have your head in the sand if you are not aware of the things that are going on in our communities. Then, again, you may be talking about the popular media. They give amateur radio very little in the way of publicity. This may be our weakest link. We do not blow are horn in public much.

Chuck, please look beyond your own nose. You may find a lot of good things are going on in our communities. It's such a shame that you are so will to berate our efforts to provide public service when it is called for.

aa1mn

10-06-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote[/b] ]It will be very difficult to pull all the names and calls that aided with our Blizzard Effort in our city.

Quote[/b] ]Chuck, please look beyond your own nose.

[/B]It's rather difficult to "look beyond your own nose" when there's nothing of consequence to look at.

Who are the "they" you speak of, a mystical nameless force from the great beyond? With all the "they" you speak of you can't supply one name or call other than yourself?

If you're not able to back up claims with call signs and specific instances where amateur radio operators partook an effective role in emergency situations in real time, real life situations kindly do not mention it ... this is the stuff off urban legens are made out of.

One doesn't have to be an amateur operator or city official to become certified as a first responder, anyone can do that if they have the time or inclination to do so; hell, I go a CPR certificate many years back as part of a phys ed course but that is completely seperate from anything to do with being an amateur radio operator ... when a medical emergency arises the first people I'd call is 911 or the local police or fire department, I'm sure not gonna call an amateur radio operator.

Sorry for shootin' down your plane once again but without concrete evidence to back it up.

Chuck, AA1MN

[B]

ae1x

10-06-2004, 06:42 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 06 2004,14:07)]Quote[/b] ]It will be very difficult to pull all the names and calls that aided with our Blizzard Effort in our city.

Quote[/b] ]Chuck, please look beyond your own nose.

It's rather difficult to "look beyond your own nose" when there's nothing of consequence to look at.

Who are the "they" you speak of, a mystical nameless force from the great beyond? #With all the "they" you speak of you can't supply one name or call other than yourself?

If you're not able to back up claims with call signs and specific instances where amateur radio operators partook an effective role in emergency situations in real time, real life situations kindly do not mention it ... this is the stuff off urban legens are made out of.

One doesn't have to be an amateur operator or city official to become certified as a first responder, anyone can do that if they have the time or inclination to do so; hell, I go a CPR certificate many years back as part of a phys ed course but that is completely seperate from anything to do with being an amateur radio operator ... when a medical emergency arises the first people I'd call is 911 or the local police or fire department, I'm sure not gonna call an amateur radio operator.

Sorry for shootin' down your plane once again but without concrete evidence to back it up.

Chuck, AA1MN

Chuck,

We are talking about 25 years ago now. I can give a couple of names and a couple of calls, but all. I would have to look at records I generated at the time and I'm not sure they have been preserved. I last saw them in the old EOC and they had been removed the last time I was in that building.

The follow names and calls I can recall:

Joe Aruda - AA1X
Pat Joy
Bill Beardsworth
K1ZZN

We used the EOC call sign WC1AAW for the fixed station activity. I got that call under my old call WA1PYZ. I was a technician at the time. The above people and people working at Sturdy Memorial Hospital, later started the Strudy Memorial Hospital Amateur Radio Club (W1SMH). This club is still in existence and now holds the WC1AAW call sign which expire shortly and pass into history. The members of this club are active in local public service events and maintain a ARES net that meets weekly on the local repeater. In addition, the club sponsors emergency communications training calls and teaches code and radio theory to anyone interested. You can view the club web-site at:

www.w1smh.com (http://)

I just can not understand your blindness to all the public spirited amateur activity that occurs every year in this country. Have you not attended a Field Day site? Are you not aware of the all events covered by radio amateurs for the public good as training exercises in the event a disaster should occur that requires our unique talents? These exercises prepare all services to work together in the event of the unthinkable.

One last time, amateurs do not wish to take the jobs of police or fire officials. This is not realistic or in the public interest. We prepare for the really bad times that can and do develop of the course of history.

(view my web-site: www.geocities.com/ae1x (http://))

aa1mn

10-06-2004, 06:57 PM

While I understand it was over two decades ago it is still an example of amateurs saying what a wonderful job they did in an emergency without giving any specifics as to who "they" were or "what" they did.

The few accounts that do cite such examples it's usually, but not always, a case of them taking credit for something someone else did ... that is what I object to.

When an amateur radio operator provides a legitmate public service directly involving amateur radio more power to him or her.

No, I do not attend field day activities ... I have witnessed one or two and it was, in a word, bedlam -- having seen that it was enough to put me wise to avoid such horror scenes in the future as more confusion and fear was caused than it help prevent; and yes, I certainly do base an opinion on one bad experience as I live a life of avoidance, avoiding bad experiences that is.

I suggest the rest of you do the same.

Chuck, AA1MN

YO3GNO

10-07-2004, 06:03 AM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,09:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Oh, you are the Lord of the Truth. No one has to doubt. If it happens to you, then we have to put our fears to rest.
Is there any power on the lines?
Maybe you are a microwave ham?

ae1x

10-07-2004, 09:55 AM

Quote[/b] (YO3GNO @ Oct. 07 2004,02:03)]Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Sep. 27 2004,09:42)]Hey, I'm about fifty feet from power lines very much like that and have no problems with transmission or recetpion what-so-ever!

Everyone can now officially put their fears to rest.

Chuck, AA1MN
Oh, you are the Lord of the Truth. No one has to doubt. If it happens to you, then we have to put our fears to rest.
Is there any power on the lines?
Maybe you are a microwave ham?
Nick,

Chuck is located in Reading MA. There is no BPL in that community and to date no trials in this state.

He is a VHF/UHF FM operator, according to his posting on this site. Enter his call into the call box above and you will see his information.

aa1mn

10-07-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote[/b] ]Chuck is located in Reading MA. There is no BPL in that community and to date no trials in this state.

Never said there was and there ain't gonna be in most parts of the civilized world which, judging from the moaning and groaning, most amateur operators apparantly aren't from.

So quit looking for trouble, stop your whining about something that isn't a problem unless you make it a problem and go back to be the empty minded cranks you are ... like me.

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

10-07-2004, 12:28 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 07 2004,04:53)]Quote[/b] ]Chuck is located in Reading MA. There is no BPL in that community and to date no trials in this state.

Never said there was and there ain't gonna be in most parts of the civilized world which, judging from the moaning and groaning, most amateur operators apparantly aren't from.

So quit looking for trouble, stop your whining about something that isn't a problem unless you make it a problem and go back to be the empty minded cranks you are ... like me.

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck: #With all due respect, you have a history of posting on BPL threads, insisting "there's no problem."
Isn't that asking for trouble, especially in light of the overabundance of factual data showing that there is strong HF and low VHF interference where BPL has been deployed and will be when and if it is installed on overhead utility lines elsewhere?

Clearly, your 2M VHF FM operation isn't bothered by traditional power line noise, since its intensity doesn't overcome local repeaters on your transceiver.

Perhaps you should chose another subject to argue about.

And, hams taking credit for public safety events, field day, etc.? #Maybe you should have come down here to FL and listened to some of the assistance provided to relief agencies and local law enforcement, when their gear wouldn't work (and amateur radio did). #I was an armchair listener, and not a participant, unfortunately. #The hurricanes were major events for amateur radio in the souteastern US, and AR came through in a big way. #Maybe the training that the hams had who participated wasn't the result of Field Day, but clearly, operating in a very busy and hectic environment was part of what they experienced in the aftermath. #So, if that's a needed skill, then Field Day is just what the doctor ordered......

73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.
40 miles from Charlie's eye (to the east and south).
40 miles from Frances' eye.
40 miles from Jeanne's eye.

aa1mn

10-07-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote[/b] ]Isn't that asking for trouble, especially in light of the overabundance of factual data showing that there is strong HF and low VHF interference where BPL has been deployed and will be when and if it is installed on overhead utility lines elsewhere?

Fact is, most of the places that BPL is and will be employeed isn't going to be near amateur operators are to begin with; most of the difficulties experienced by hams are when the hams brought themselves to the BPL not the other way around -- when you jump in front of a speeding train of course you're going to get hit ... now that's asking for trouble.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe you should have come down here to FL and listened to some of the assistance provided to relief agencies and local law enforcement, when their gear wouldn't work (and amateur radio did).

I'll pass on the invite. I'm not one to place myself in a situation that invites disaster which Florida definitely is, it's an area well known for being fraught with hurricanes and those who live there knowing full well this fact have no right to complain when they get him with 'em ... again, it's asking for trouble and the rest of us don't want to hear about it when it happens. Then again, what do you expect from a group of people who have difficulty counting hanging chads when the rest of the country has no difficutly with it what-so-ever (sorry, just had to get that jab in, the opportunity was just too good to pass up).

Quote[/b] ]Maybe the training that the hams had who participated wasn't the result of Field Day, but clearly, operating in a very busy and hectic environment was part of what they experienced in the aftermath.

Look, considering the one field day I saw with my with own two eyes and the many hellacious experiences I've heard related over the airwaves about them all tell the same story -- they create more chaos than they control.
Now, if you want to set yourself in that kind of environment go right ahead but I sure as hell ain't gonna be dumb enough to do it myself and why should I?

73s,

Chuck, AA1MN

ae1x

10-07-2004, 01:49 PM

Chuck,

What about Jim Spencer W0SR? He is located right in front of a BPL trial system, which has since been shutdown. He did not have to go looking for a problem. The train was right in front of his position and coming on strong.

I was wrong is stating that there are no trial systems in this state. There is a new one starting up in Agawam, MA in the western part of this state. It is being set up by Western Mass Electric and uses Amperion technology. According the article, this system is being set up in the immediate vicinity of active amateur stations with fore knowledge of the amateurs to make a real effort to assess the effects of BPL on real amateur operations and to do analysis of the notching capabilities. This is precisely the kind of activity that should have been set up in previous cases so that real interference data could be collected with the advise and consent of all parties. 3 cheers to the Western MA amateurs and Electric Utility for setting this up.

Ken

aa1mn

10-07-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote[/b] ]What about Jim Spencer W0SR? He is located right in front of a BPL trial system, which has since been shutdown. He did not have to go looking for a problem.

Well, what about him?

Isn't this a great opportunity for him to make use of BPL and find out what a wonderful effective service this is?

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

10-07-2004, 03:05 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 07 2004,06:56)]Quote[/b] ]What about Jim Spencer W0SR? He is located right in front of a BPL trial system, which has since been shutdown. He did not have to go looking for a problem.

Well, what about him? #

Isn't this a great opportunity for him to make use of BPL and find out what a wonderful effective service this is?

Chuck, AA1MN
Chuck: #Your diatribe has the all earmarks of a true "troller" of animosity. #Replete with illogic and dischord throughout.

Please, by all means, keep your little 2M transceiver and CB rig at your side in your little corner of Massachusetts. #

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL.

n7spy

10-07-2004, 03:19 PM

Chuck/AA1MN sure has a gift for pissing people off...

Going back to the subject/matter of this topic... namely, BPL trials:

The League announced earlier in the week that yet ANOTHER BPL Trial has been shut down... this one in Raleigh, NC (which is NOT a small town)... in spite of the fact that Progress Energy and Amperion (the utility/partner team doing the Trial) were actually cooperating with Hams to remove interference.

The problem was that they found out what EVERY OTHER TRIAL IN THE PLANET has found out: that you can't remove the interference caused into the Amateur Bands.

By the way, everyone, mark your calendars: the FCC Commissioners are meeting on October 14th (that's a week from today) and they have an item in their agenda: to consider a (draft) Report and Order regarding BPL (ET Docket 04-37, according to the League's website).

W1RFI

10-08-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote[/b] (Guest @ Sep. 28 2004,14:53)]So, I hope I will be spared at least for a time. #There is noise enough now, from the power company alone, which doesn't seem to get fixed no matter how much you complain. #

Someone tell me how to get a phone number for the FCC, so I can complain. I've looked in every directory I have been able to find with no luck. #
Information on how to proceed with "regular" power-line interference is at:

http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/rfi-elec.html

Ed Hare, W1RFI

W1RFI

10-08-2004, 12:14 PM

Quote[/b] (ae1x @ Oct. 06 2004,07:49)]I was wrong is stating that there are no trial systems in this state. There is a new one starting up in Agawam, MA in the western part of this state. It is being set up by Western Mass Electric and uses Amperion technology. According the article, this system is being set up in the immediate vicinity of active amateur stations with fore knowledge of the amateurs to make a real effort to assess the effects of BPL on real amateur operations and to do analysis of the notching capabilities. This is precisely the kind of activity that should have been set up in previous cases so that real interference data could be collected with the advise and consent of all parties. 3 cheers to the Western MA amateurs and Electric Utility for setting this up.
Actually, that "cooperative" approach has been seen at the start of several of the trials. It even continues when the amateurs who have done testing and listening report interference. It usually disappears, however, when the hams report that the "fixes" tried by the utility do not actually fix the problem. At that point, Progress Energy tried to solve interference through statements by their legal department. To this day, in spite of having shut it down, they are making very public statements that the amateurs in Raleigh kept "raising the bar" instead of admitting that they failed to clear the bar in several attempts.

They also reported that they spent $500,000 on this BPL trial. I suppose if I spent $500,000 of my boss's money and only had to show for it what they don't have to show for it, I might try to blame it on someone else, too.

And the area amateurs are doing a great job at working patiently on the issue. I have been providing help and guidance to a number of BPL teams across the country, but I am an active member of this one, serving under its chairman.

My job is to go there and make the necessary measurements of field strength and degradation within the ham bands. The initial results are encouraging, but the system is nowhere near built out yet, so I am not reaching any conclusions.

I have offered to the BPL manufacturer, Amperion, to meet them there and work together to find out how "encouraging" it really is, but "their schedules" don't permit them to do anything with me except for a teleconference call that hasn't actually happened. In the meantime, ARRL will have to continue to base its positions on what it has found in other Amperion systems (Raleigh, Cedar Rapids and Penn Yan).

Ed Hare, W1RFI

n2obm

10-08-2004, 11:01 PM

Hello All,

IMHO, the BPL advocates (providers) should buy up all of the unused 'fiber' around and provide service to 'all of those poor unfortunate rural citizens' AT COST without polluting the spectrum. If they are SOOO worried about access for the masses.

Is there a customer-base that could offset cost, maybe some of those folks STILL can't afford it (at$29.99/mo)! #
Maybe they are too busy at earning a living to give a s$%#t.

And Chuck(aa1mn):
Every Amateur should be...'PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and community.'
A little rehash of the Amateur's Code.

Yes, a 'well equipped' communications-emergency vehicle should have all of the assets that you list (please read MAXIMUM cross-compatability)....but could you explain to me why I have CREDIT on my cell (Verizon) bill for 'dropped calls'? Dependable as far as I can throw it, disaster or not.

"Can you hear me now?"

aa1mn

10-08-2004, 11:55 PM

Quote[/b] ]Every Amateur should be...'PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and community.'
A little rehash of the Amateur's Code.

I can think of no government or country worth risking my life or limb for with the sole exception of the one that I am in charge of.

While I do appreciate being a citizen of the United States of America the more than gratutious taxes taken from my paycheck by this fine government of ours is "patriotic" action enough for my part ... any additional patriotism will necessitate the government reimbursing me financially -- and considering my the time, trouble and finances paid for the educational background which the United States government saw fit to charge an arm and a leg for, my services won't come cheap.

Perhaps you, and others such as yourself, don't mind playing the part of sheep for governments or religions and that is, of course, your right to do so ... I, however, do not.

Being a bit more independent, I do not trust authority as they do not have my best interst at heart -- perhaps they have your best interests at, that I don't know and shan't speak for -- but do as you will, please don't ask me to think as you do just as I don't ask others to think as I do.

73s,

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

10-09-2004, 03:18 AM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 08 2004,16:55)]I can think of no government or country worth risking my life or limb for with the sole exception of the one that I am in charge of.

So, you are willing to risk life and limb for the government "you are in charge of?" #Does this mean you are the mayor of Bleaksburg, MA? #Or have you elected yourself dictator of a sea gull-inhabited rock off the MA shore?

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 08 2004,16:55)]Perhaps you, and others such as yourself, don't mind playing the part of sheep for governments or religions and that is, of course, your right to do so ... I, however, do not.

Then, you reverse yourself and say you won't "play sheep for governments."

Read and correct what you write first, then maybe you'll make more sense to those you are broadcasting to.

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 08 2004,16:55)]Being a bit more independent, I do not trust authority as they do not have my best interst at heart

You really ought to take that CB rig of yours and troll for Ipswitch clams with it. #Try using a surplus Amperion BPL line coupler too. That might make better clam bait.

Cheers.

Lee
W6EM

aa1mn

10-10-2004, 12:39 AM

Quote[/b] ]So, you are willing to risk life and limb for the government "you are in charge of?" Does this mean you are the mayor of Bleaksburg, MA? Or have you elected yourself dictator of a sea gull-inhabited rock off the MA shore?

No, Lee, just saying that I wouldn't risk it for any government that I wasn't in charge of, what's so difficult to understand about that?

Oh, yeah, that's right you're from Florida, that's the state that couldn't figure out how to count the votes in the last presidential elections even after they did it four or five times isn't it?

Quote[/b] ]Then, you reverse yourself and say you won't "play sheep for governments."

Guess you have trouble with reading comprehension as well as figuring out what to do with hanging chads, huh?

Chuck, AA1MN

k4tfc

10-10-2004, 07:00 AM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif When I drive through Collinsville Virginia there is NO band that I can receive on includeing the 27mhz band so GOOD for BPL I got no ears now !

k4tfc

10-10-2004, 07:17 AM

Please Drive through Collinsville VA Route 220 south try to receive when you get close to the AutoZone north bound you can see the boxes on the poles and they Humm I hate to drop a QSO when I'm rst59 in my mobile to a fixed base station K7DY on 14.293mhz, Sep 11 2004, because QRM BPL Well he did confirm my rst.

w6em

10-10-2004, 02:52 PM

Quote[/b] (k4tfc @ Oct. 10 2004,00:00)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif When I drive through Collinsville Virginia there is NO band that I can receive on includeing the 27mhz band so GOOD for BPL I got no ears now !
Wow. Thanks for your post of reality with respect to BPL. We need to hear such stories. And, the FCC does too. You might want to share it with the ARRL.

The reality of BPL is just as you have described, unlike the dementia of at least one of us, here, who actually proposes its installation and use (and doesn't know the difference betweem "I am" and "if I were").

Lee
W6EM

KG4RUL

10-10-2004, 09:17 PM

The promise of BPL was to bridge the "last mile" and bring the internet to the rural areas of America. The reality of BPL is to bring the internet to suburban areas and maximize power company profits. The rural areas are still not getting the internet and we are getting scr##ed! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

ae1x

10-11-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 10 2004,17:17)]The promise of BPL was to bridge the "last mile" and bring the internet to the rural areas of America. #The reality of BPL is to bring the internet to suburban areas and maximize power company profits. #The rural areas are still not getting the internet and we are getting scr##ed! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
They can't bring BPL to the rural areas until they are profitable enough to take the losses. These same rural areas did not get telephone or power until government took action to force the situtation. It's never been sufficiently profitable to provide such service to these areas.

Ken

P.S. I'm not in favor of BPL, please don't flame me on this one. I'm just pointing out some history.

KES

kd4mxe

10-11-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 10 2004,14:17)]The promise of BPL was to bridge the "last mile" and bring the internet to the rural areas of America. #The reality of BPL is to bring the internet to suburban areas and maximize power company profits. #The rural areas are still not getting the internet and we are getting scr##ed! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
kg4rul hang in there it will come , we need it out here, bill.

KG4RUL

10-12-2004, 09:20 PM

To Clarify:

The we who are getting scr#wed are Hams. #I live in a suburban area and have a cable modem my self. #The rational for BPL was to serve rural folks. #They are the ones getting scr#wed.

The reality of BPL is that you have to bring the backbone to within a mile or less of the user anyhow. #So if you are that close, wireless makes much more sense than fibre or placing hardware at each transformer. #Besides, with wireless, you don't need any interior hardware other than the card.

BPL is nothing more than a HUGE potential money maker for the utility companies.

Dennis #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

w6em

10-13-2004, 12:26 AM

Dennis: It won't be a money maker in rural areas, but a money loser. For the reasons you point out. That's why many of the trials have been in cities, where the customer density is much higher. That's where they see dollar signs.....

Even selling power in rural America is marginally profitable. The primary reason for setting up what used to be called REAs was because investor owned utilities would not serve the rural customers since the cost of extending the system to serve them was so much.

When I worked for Pacific Gas and Electric, our least profitable area was the central San Joaquin Valley of California, and its miles of rural lines. Probably is still the case today.

Lee
W6EM

kd4mxe

10-13-2004, 11:27 AM

Quote[/b] (KG4RUL @ Oct. 12 2004,14:20)]To Clarify:

The we who are getting scr#wed are Hams. #I live in a suburban area and have a cable modem my self. #The rational for BPL was to serve rural folks. #They are the ones getting scr#wed.

The reality of BPL is that you have to bring the backbone to within a mile or less of the user anyhow. #So if you are that close, wireless makes much more sense than fibre or placing hardware at each transformer. #Besides, with wireless, you don't need any interior hardware other than the card.

BPL is nothing more than a HUGE potential money maker for the utility companies.

Dennis #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
well it dont scr#w me let them come on ,Icant stop them any more than you can, they got the money and idont so , if they wont it Bad enought they will get it and all these winer,s cant stop it eather, so let them Bring it on , we will with it Bill .

W9WHE

10-13-2004, 03:01 PM

Michael Powell and the FCC should have assembled an international coalition, instead of going it alone. We need UN approval. What we have here is a coalition of bribed and cohersed consumers. We need to #pass a global test before undertaking such incredibly spectrum polluting action. Harming our RF enviornment is a global issue with global implications. Therefore, we need to fight a more sensitive BPL action. After all, this BPL stuff is just so Haliburton, Exxon and ARRL can reap Zillions of $$ in selling over-priced publications. #RF hash and publications for $$. But we can't pull out now. If you go to John Kerry.com, you can see that he has a better plan. Only he and John Edwards can assemble an international coalition of the sued and cohersed foreginers to run our country!

W9WHE

10-14-2004, 06:17 PM

Know what is REALLY WRONG with this picture?

They did not go to the U.N. and assemble an international coalition. They did not pass the "global test". Instead, they assembled a group of the bribed and cohersed power companies. Everybody knows that BPL is all about RF hash for no bid contracts to Exxon and Dick Cheny's Haliburton. If they had assembled a true international coalition, then we would not be stuck in this quagmire! But we can't pull out now. Fear not! John Kerry has a plan. If you go to John Kerry.com, you will see that he has a plan to assemble an international coalition of BPL providers and hams that will come together to solve this issue.

After all, John Kerry plans on voting FOR BPL after he votes AGAINST it!

k9ekg

10-17-2004, 05:59 AM

Hi everyone. I'm new here and I was perusing the boards this evening. I came across this guy who thinks BPL is great and CB's are better than amatuer radio when it comes to public service. I understand this is what one calls a "troller", well it worked on me so I became registered as he infuriated me.
Although at current I am working on my morse code requirement and do not actively use HF, I would like it preserved for when I do finally get to make my debut, as I want to earn the privelege, not have it handed to me. So yes, BPL is a concern. But my biggest concern is how this guy can fathom that a cell phone works better in an emergency than an amatuer radio?
Now, as a current licensed Firefighter-EMT-I who holds the rank of an Assistant Chief on my local department, I do hold the qualifications to make these assessments more than any "I-know-someone-who" character. We all know someone...do the job first and THEN make your assessments.

First, lets look at the mechanics of a disaster, and the things that can and often do occur.
We have the actual incident occuring, whether man made, natural or otherwise. What were the ramifications? What damage did it make? Did it trash your cell towers, which we all know is how that thing works. Common "ham sense" tells you something sticking 200 feet in the air has an enormous windload, and in cases of hurricaines or tornadoes, has the tendency and ability to damage or destroy those as they are not engineered to hold those wind loads for any period of time. No towie, no phonie...

Next, should the tower last now you have the aftermath.
Maybe local lines are down. Wooden telephone/transmission poles are typical and fracture easily, thus the populatory exodus to the cell phone.

Now, post disaster, EVERYONE seems to get on the phone!! Gotta call Aunt Marge, see if shes ok. Gotta call Uncle Bil. Hey, you guys ok? Those circuits become overloaded with calls incoming and outgoing to all those different families thus everthing becomes jammed. Even worse with cell phones due to the site(s) that are used typically will be located in the areas where the damage has occured, and thus overloads them. SO, even if the cell phone towers survive the disaster, they will become inundated with phone calls from the general citizenry as they all communicate with each other and families. Useless.

Look at NYC when 9/11 occured. It is well documented that cell phones were jammed for miles, towers down, radio systems down, there were NO COMMS! Who came in? Thank you hams...
Cell phones ARE THE WORST possible thing I could use in a disaster mode. I do have one, yes, but always have backups as I would personally pre-treat it as a failure.

Now from the public safety standpoint....
If I have an incident in my community which wipes out my ability to communicate with my crews or rigs, I will, as a proactive commander, find something to immediately alleviate that problem. Amatuer radio is the perfect product. Hams could send teletypes, RTTY, and even television of areas which I might be concerned with not to mention the ability to communicate via swaths of mindnumbing bandwidth, and building portable repeaters! There are so many modes one could use I would be a fool NOT TO USE IT should the need arise. I dont think there is an issue with public safety and amatuer radio working together for the sheer reason that each should simply know what his/her job is and not to interfere with the other. Furthermore, hams are there HELPING ME with my comms, not fighting fire or treating the injured. If hams wish to become CERT teams also, thats their perogative. However, if I call them to use the radios, then they will use the radios and that only. Common ICS. Amatuer radio is the way to go if my commercial systems fail and I for one will use them should the need arise.

Now onto BPL. This scares me because should I need help with multiple comms, I should know that they can communicate without interference. Should it be a disaster situation, chances are power will be out and BPL wont be an issue. BUT, should something else arise, I sure as hope that it doesnt hinder the hams performance.
Not to mention we have to have licenses to use those frequencies and should be afforded the right to have the spectrum protected from this unecessary evil.

In the end, God bless all hams who help us do our jobs all over the country and the world. The service is second to none and I dont say that as an amatuer myself, I say it as a professional. Im proud to be a ham, and proud to be a firefighter. Chuck; "Break 19?" Not in my house. 73 and God Bless
Keep up the good work and hopefully BPL will be its own demise!

Chris, K9EKG
[B]

aa1mn

10-17-2004, 08:14 PM

Quote[/b] ]I understand this is what one calls a "troller"

You understand incorrectly, Chris.

The definition of a "troll" is anyone who has a different opinion than the one you hold.

Hope this clarifies the term for future use.

Yours,

Chuck, AA1MN

w6em

10-17-2004, 10:30 PM

Quote[/b] (aa1mn @ Oct. 17 2004,13:14)]Quote[/b] ]I understand this is what one calls a "troller"

You understand incorrectly, Chris.

The definition of a "troll" is anyone who has a different opinion than the one you hold.

Hope this clarifies the term for future use.

Yours,

Chuck, AA1MN
Chris: #Thanks for your post. #It was a breath of fresh air.

And, as you can see, our "troller" friend re-enters and attempts to tone down what the definition of what one is. #

No, its not just someone with a differing opinion, Chuckles, but someone who goes about with the intent of injecting controversial, differing opinion, even in the face of factual information to the contrary, with the intent and purpose of causing animosity.

Chuck, the shoe fits you well.

You don't know the first thing about communications reliability and availability during emergencies, and your postings demonstrate it. #So, go back to your 2M rig, shucking Ipswitch clams, or some other activity.

Cheers from Chadland,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

aa1mn

10-18-2004, 12:05 AM

Quote[/b] ]No, its not just someone with a differing opinion, Chuckles, but someone who goes about with the intent of injecting controversial, differing opinion, even in the face of factual information to the contrary, with the intent and purpose of causing animosity.

Quote[/b] ]You don't know the first thing about communications reliability and availability during emergencies, and your postings demonstrate it. #So, go back to your 2M rig, shucking Ipswitch clams, or some other activity.

Thank you for your imput Lee.

I thus amend my original definition for the definition of "Troll" as follows:

The definition of a 'Troll' is a person who holds an opinion than the one you have AND is used by only those with a very, very, very small mind with a very, very, very limited scope.

Chuck, AA1MN

P.S.:

By the way K9EKG and W6EM, my personal thanks are extened to both of you, Chris and Lee, for proving the point made on my behalf earlier that CB is a far superior band to the amateur radio waves ... those on the CB bands are quite capable of having different opinions, as the two of you have from mine, without lowering themselves to a level as displayed here -- needless to say, it's safe to say both have you have used up your allotment of stupidness to last a life time.