OPEN COMMENT to Glen,OT's ,OF's

[KA4DPO]

Hey Glen, Um Glen, Guess what Glen? Theres a parody site about QRZ Glen. I hate it Glen. Nany Nany Glen.

Sorry but that was just about the most blatant derierre hicky I've ever seen. If your so dad gummed concerned about it whay didn't you post the URL so the rest of us could make up our own minds.

Next time add a few X's and O's so we won't have any doubts about your intentions......

[WA5KRP]

Orv,


I think you are a man on a mission to discourage new blood from joining the amateur radio service. In your obsession with the days of yesteryear you turn a blind eye and an empty helping hand to those we need to be our successors.

Quite frankly, I feel if you were the gatekeeper that determines who enters the ARS, you would oversee the death of amateur radio. Within this forum, I cannot think of a poster with a more negative impact. And frankly, that's very sad. You have so much to offer that's positve, informative, and useful. But you bury that beneath scornful, mean spirited posts. You are perfect example of raw, vibrant talent that's misdirected and going to waste.

It's a terrible shame. Pull your head out.



WA5KRP
Texas

[9V1VV]

Orv, this is over the top. You really should take a long walk in the fresh air more often.

[K3STX]

BOO HOO HOO, Orv made me sad.

BOO HOO HOO, Orv hurt my feelings. BAD ORV!

BOO HOO HOO, Orv is MEAN and OLD and doesn't like people who ask basic questions.

What a bunch of crybabies.

Have you guys ever been to college and gotten SCREAMED at by teachers like Orv. I have, it motivated me.

Orv tries to get the lazy a%*holes off their butts and do something other than whine and cry and belly ache. I think this is what we need, not the Dr. Phil mantra of " I love you, we all love you, serenity now and we are all one big happy family". Grow up, this is real life. While it might be a "hobby" to you, so some of us it is serious stuff that is an important part of our enjoyment of our limited time on earth. (WOW MAN, THAT'S DEEP).

Orv, as you know I just got back on after 20 years off the air. On the air I have not noticed any change. On the other hand, I only operate CW and we all know how great CW ops are (touche').

Seriously, I think all the blabbing/bashing/crying is an internet thing, considering I have not heard it on the air. On the other hand, my mode limitation limits my peer group.

Perhaps something you should consider.

paul (the CW snob)

[k5rna]

I repeat.If any one is so down on the hobby because every ham isn't a rocket scientist which was never expected of any one (contrary to what a few expect the new comers to believe) turn the rig off,take down the antennas take up another hobby.Yes,i said hobby.This is not the 1930s and 40s any longer.And yes,i remember the late 30s very well.

[KA9VQF]

Gosh RNA, Orv has suggested his own solution. He and people of his own level will seek their own level like water. When they do so perhaps they will populate their own bit of cyberspace.
{Quote}
I have noticed most Hams will like water seek their own level,which stands to reason,you want to talk to some one who understands what you are saying, and can contribute to the conversation,those who did not measure up would listen and learn until such time as they also could contribute.
{End Quote}
Perhaps there he will learn to use spaces between a word, comma, and the next word. Who knows perhaps he will even learn to split up actual paragraphs.

Being a technical wizard and truly knowing everything about everything must really be a drag when you have problems writing and being able to be understood.

[KA9VQF]

Yes, Miss Hokensen, if she were alive, would be all over your text with her red pencil.

I hope you realize that I really have no real animosity toward you.

[9V1VV]

Orv, I don't think anyone feels any animosity towards you. We all know you have the best interests of amateur radio at heart. You can be mighty cranky at times, s'all #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

BTW I'm not a democrat (or a republican !!). Work that one out.

[kd7eze]

UEY--

You bring up some interesting points, however, even after being asked, you still haven't posted the link to this site you talk so much about.

As for the political side--I too am neither Dem nor Rep, but I vote in every election. I vote for whomever I feel will do the best job in the position they seek. For what it's worth, I didn't vote for Dubya, or his pappy.

[K9STH]

To approach this subject scientifically and NOT emotionally!

First of all there have always been amateurs with varying levels of technical skill all the way from what were known from the 1930s into the 1960s as "appliance operators" all the way to those who could design a complete station from scratch without having to "crack" a reference book. Most operators were somewhere inbetween.

Now, until the advent of the "no code" Technician Class everyone did have to pass an examination in the International Morse code, 5 wpm for Novice and Technician, 13 wpm for Conditional, General, and Advanced, and finally 20 wpm for Extra. Now days you have to pass a 5 wpm test to get HF privileges of any kind.

Does making one pass Element 1 make them a better amateur? Well, in my opinion yes and no! I know some no code Technicians that are excellent operators, who are learning the technology behind amateur radio, and so on. I also know a lot more no code Technicians who are no more than glorified Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service operators who act exactly the same way on the various repeaters that they utilize as they did on the 11 meter band.

Frankly, I have NEVER run into someone who could NOT learn the code. I have run into people who did NOT want to learn the code and would NOT put forth the effort to learn it. There is a difference! In fact, starting tomorrow evening I am again running a code course at my house in Richardson, Texas, all of the students that have "signed up" are no code Technicians.

I really believe that the vast majority of people who have taken time to learn the International Morse code are showing something about themselves and that is the fact that they are willing to put forth the effort required to gain additional privileges. They do NOT want things handed to them on a silver platter. Sure, these same people would probably operate on HF if they were suddenly given those privileges without any effort on their part. But, the fact that they are willing to put forth the effort to gain the additional privileges says something.

As for the SOB type of operating: There have always been a very few operators within the amateur radio ranks that have not been of the highest character. There also have been some "characters" like W2OY ("CQ, CQ, no lids, no kids, no space cadets. Class A ops only. No 'phonies' - meaning no phonetics - etc."). However, it has only been in the relatively past few years that the conduct, language, etc., of those on all of the bands have become questionable.

I do attribute much of this to the fact that many of the newer amateurs have come into the service from the Class "D" Citizen's Radio Service and from the ranks of the "freebanders". Since the FCC has basically abandoned the 11 meter band in terms of enforcement anything goes on the 27 MHz band. Because of this, when many of these operators acquire a no code Technician license they believe that they can still operate just like they did on 11 meters.

When those operators upgrade and then operate on HF some take those same "ideas" of operating with them and continue to use the same "quality" of language, operating habits, etc. Unfortunately, a small number of amateurs who have been licensed for a longer period of time (and who had been reined in by FCC enforcement in the past) fall in with these persons who do not operate properly and then things get even worse.

With the vanity program for call signs you can no longer get an idea as to how long a person has been licensed from his/her call sign. These days a person who has been licensed for over 30 years may have a 2X3 and someone who has been licensed for only a couple of years might have a 1X2. As such, you cannot tell how long a person has been licensed when you hear the "not so proper" language from them.

The Internet has also added another dimension to the "mix". Anyone with access to a computer can appear on the various discussion boards posting all sorts of things. Unfortunately, many people sit in their homes, offices, school rooms, etc., and feel a sense of annonomity and post things that they probably would not actually "say" in a personal conversation or over the air. There is just something "different" between writing something and actually verbalizing it that makes people write things that they would never say to someone.

As for those boards that people have established to criticize this site, I don't read them. Frankly, I have enough to do trying to keep order in the forums that I moderate on QRZ.com that I don't have time to even "think" of reading what others have to say about this site and even me personally. If the sites get bad enough (and I have "heard" of some of the comments on a couple of them) they will eventually come under some scrutiny from the "powers the be" of this site and it is remotely possible that some sort of action might be taken. However, I have found in the past that if one ignores such activities that they soon lose their "steam" and just fade away.

There have been sites that started in either "competition" with this site but that allowed no moderation at all as well as those sites that have been started to criticize this site. Well, the sites that were started a while back have all disappeared. One of the sites that had no moderation at all lasted less than 3 months before the person who had established it found out what happens when there is no moderation. The site got raunchier than most XXX rated sites on the Internet with posts by a small handful of persons. The owner of the site got completely fed up and
pulled the site.

People tend to be jealous of success and QRZ.com has been fairly successful since its inception. There are those who think that "freedom of speech" means that they can post anything anywhere on the Internet without the chance of being moderated. Those people need to take a civics class and learn just what "freedom of speech" really means! Then there are those who exist solely to cause problems. Those people get their basic subsistance from having their opinions criticized (more like attacked) by others. They cannot exist unless they are causing chaos for everyone else.

Then, there are those people who just have to put their "2 cents" in no matter if they can make a concrete contribution to the discussion. Now, there are certain individuals who post regularily on the forums that I moderate who are a warehouse of knowledge and who most certainly are willing to try to help those who are asking questions. There are those who have a definite political position and who post in this particular forum. And there are those who cannot accept any position except their's and who keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over ad naseum.

As I have posted time and time again, if the people who post obey the "rules of the road" of QRZ.com

No profanity

No obscenities

No personal attacks

then they are free to participate. However, when the "line" gets crossed, and when I have to put on my moderator's "hat", then the fur just might start to fly! But, when people do obey the rules then I can refrain from having to put on my "hat" and can participate in the discussions like anyone else.

Glen, K9STH

[K7JBQ]

Orv,

While we do not always agree, you're on to something here, and Glen nailed it down.

Interesting point regarding vanity calls. Maybe it was because I spent a dozen years or so away from the radio, but the flood of "new old" calls I found on my return was perplexing, to say the least.

I wonder how many dollars have flowed into the government coffers from this program and, frankly, whether it's been worth it.

Now, I can see why someone would want his father's, or grandfather's old call. But for others, what's the point?

73,
Bill

[KB9YCO]

I'm pretty sure this is the site Orv is complaining about: I won't print the name here. (http://www.####qrz.com/) I would agree that it's way over the top, although some of it was amusing, I can't see dedicating an entire website to it. Whatever floats your boat I guess, but it seems to me that if you don't like a website you simply don't look at it. Seems easy enough, but someone went out of their way to send it to Orv, knowing it would get a reaction. Why they can't just stop reading what they don't like on QRZ and move on with their lives is beyond me. It does seem like most of it is done if a satirical way, and not too be taken too seriously, but again, I can't see making a whole website out of it. Whatever.
Moving on to Orv, CW, and the class warfare mentality.
Orv:
I do have animosity towards Orv because he offers nothing helpful to the service/hobby, he degrades the service by his constant negative attitude towards anyone that doesn't fit his image of what should be. Here is an experienced operator, who is obviously a smart person, who practices nothing but intolerance and blatant hatred towards those that may disagree with him. That is unbecoming of the amateur service in any era. There is a difference between a mean teacher motivating his student, the teacher is still teaching (hopefully) whereas Orv does not pass on anything except his vitriol and disdain for others that don't fit into his scheme of things. Whether he would admit it or not, what he does, and the way he does it, does more damage to the service/hobby than any amount of testing changes will ever do. You don't have to teach others directly, but a positive attitude towards new people can make all the difference in the world, and in itself can be a motivating factor. Something that Orv has clearly missed.
CW: Anyone that thinks code testing makes people more qualified operators hasn't been listening to all of HF; I hear just as much fighting, swearing, and complaining in HF as I do in CB, (sometimes more) and I've been listening to both for 20+ years. You people that think the elimination of code testing will be the downfall of amateur radio had better start worrying more about the information on THE TEST. Memorization tests that lack the fundamentals are what we should be worrying about. It's the actual knowledge of radio, electronics, and etiquette
appropriate to the class of license that makes the difference. Code is no gaurantee of a good or more knowledgable operator.
Class warfare: For as long as I've been around radio, which has been most of my life at this point, most people in radio strived to be helpful, or at the very least encouraging to newer operators. This is a big part of the license class system in the first place, the level of knowledge dictates your position and privileges, and those with higher class licenses support the entire service/hobby for the purpose of maintaining it's level of quality. Bickering, talking down, insinuating, generalizing all lower class licensees, etc., does not help to maintain the brotherhood that is supposed to be the foundation of the service/hobby. Encouraging, volunteering, setting an example for others is what makes the difference. ANYONE that thinks otherwise has missed the point of the amateur service since it's creation. It's a learning process where most do not start out as experts; they should be encouraged by others to continue to learn, instead of being condescended to (without actual knowledge of who they are or what they actually know) based on their class of license. Some people are just happy to have the priveleges their licenses give them. I personally know a few people that are MARS licensees, or in the radio business and educated in it, that still maintain a tech license because that's what works for them. It doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to go beyond that, or they don't have knowledge beyond their license class, it just means it works for them at the time. It doesn't mean that they'll be there forever, or that they are somehow less of a ham because of their current status.
Orv, and people of his opinion, do not add to the quality of new operators or help to contribute to the positive growth of the service. And again, we'd better start worrying about THE TEST, instead of only worrying about code testing. THE TEST is what determines what they should and shouldn't know, and what they should continue to learn about later on. Orv, and people that think the way he does are doing us all a great disservice by their poor attitudes and bad example of the amateur service/hobby.
But, I'm just a newbie, so what do I know, right? eeeesh...

[KC9ECI]

Really, Orv isn't all that bad guys. He's opinionated, like each and every last one of you. I used to snipe at Orv frequently. One day I posted an question relative to gamma matching and distortion of the rf signal at angles to the direction the antenna was pointing. Guess who emailed me and helped explain the whole thing? Orv.

On the other hand...sometimes you go over the top Orv.

[AG3Y]

One of the points that Orv is making here has to do with the "gimmee gimmee" attitude of so many posters here on QRZ. #There is an example right within this very string. #Shame on you for complaining that Orv did not GIVE you the URL of the site he was talking about! #

I did not have the URL either, but it did not take me more than a couple of minutes to find the site that I am sure Orv is talking about! #And I did not have to harangue him for the location, either!

I agree that sometimes Orv seems to be a bit more opinionated than that which is "politically correct". #But sometimes, I too feel that what I am seeing and hearing, that is going on all around me on the hambands, and here on the internet is so STUPID and WRONG that I could SCREAM ! #

Perhaps the only real difference between Orv and some of the rest of us, is that he doesn't seem to care any more if he is "Politically Correct" or not !

No, I am not saying that I agree 100% with everything that Orv says, but I will agree that a WHOLE LOT of what he does say makes a LOT OF SENSE! # Which is a lot more than I can say for some of the other posters here on QRZ.COM !

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KB9YCO]

I never said he was stupid, he wouldn't be where he is, or at his class of license if he was. I said he's narrow-minded and misguided, negative, and doing a disservice to the amateur community by his attitude.
I do notice that everytime I note the importance of THE TEST no one even says anything. I'm used to Orv ignoring me because he doesn't consider me worthy of response (it's always good for a laugh since I could care less), but what about all you other code supporters? Don't you think the information contained on the test is much more important than whether or not there is a code requirement or not? Don't you consider actual knowledge of radio and electronics more important than whether or not someone knows Morse code?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

[w8ob]

I dunno I kind of enjoy reading Orv's post. He kind of reminds of the old D.I. I had in the service. One day while doing the low crawl I ended up gettting a rifle butt to the back of my head, I looked up and there was ole sarge saying "son you better keep that ****** head down or your gonna lose it. Sure I was POed as first but then I understood why he did it and I never forgot it After all the man had done a couple of combat tours and sure as hell knew more than I did about it. You keep up the good work Orv if the girlee men can't take it tough. Last I heard we were still in America everybody has rights here. How come everytime on this forum toes get stepped on somebody comes up swinging with proper useage of writin english?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif? Honestly Orv I can't answer your question because in spite of almost 40 years of being licensed I never strayed from the CW bands, Just too many good hams there to make me want to leave.

[KB9YCO]

And yet you choose to not answer either. IS CODE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF RADIO AND ELECTRONICS? Everyone is so concerned about code, but no one is concerned about the quality of the test? It just makes no sense, if you're so worried about the quality of new people coming into amateur radio then shouldn't you be more worried about the test than about whether or not there is a code requirement? Anyone, anyone at all?

[K7JBQ]

YCO,

Consider this: The code test does not have questions and answers published. You can't memorize them. That's the difference for a lot of us.

73,
Bill

[KB9YCO]

That's a view I can appreciate, but it still doesn't answer the core question. Shouldn't we be more concerned with the quality of the test, instead of being concerned about code? I understand what you're are saying, but if we're looking for fundamental changes in the licensing requirements, shouldn't we be worried about the fact that it is a memorization test, and about what's actually on there as far as subject matter goes. That's what I'm asking. Thanks for at least one response though.

[ai4ep]

oh sheesh here we go again with another " code vs no - code " thread.

Wont this be exciting? Problably not, unless the " anti - code " fans actually come up with something different and new to say ( which is very unlikely ).

How long will this thread last in pages ? possibly 10 or less, or the end of the week...whichever comes first.

How long will it take to get " up close & personal " ? Maybe this evening, maybe not.

Where do I stand ? Way over here, behind this "vote for Bush " billboard, so I wont get hit by gun fire. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif


hee hee hee

ai4ep

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 20 2004,20:22)]oh sheesh here we go again with another " code vs no - code " thread.

Wont this be exciting? Problably not, unless the " anti - code " fans actually come up with something different and new to say ( which is very unlikely ).
How about the "pro-code" fans actually come up with something different and new to say? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Sep. 20 2004,15:05)]I never said he was stupid, he wouldn't be where he is, or at his class of license if he was. I said he's narrow-minded and misguided, negative, and doing a disservice to the amateur community by his attitude.
I do notice that everytime I note the importance of THE TEST no one even says anything. I'm used to Orv ignoring me because he doesn't consider me worthy of response (it's always good for a laugh since I could care less), but what about all you other code supporters? Don't you think the information contained on the test is much more important than whether or not there is a code requirement or not? Don't you consider actual knowledge of radio and electronics more important than whether or not someone knows Morse code?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller?
And I suppose we should all be like you? #Be careful of who you point a finger at.
Now for your rant about "the test." #What would you consider a good test? #Drawing out circuits and understand them? #Not a chance because someone will cry all I want to do is operate not build. #Describe antenna systems? #Nope, same answer, all I want to do is operate. #I will agree that the knowlegde of radio and electronics IS important. #You jab the pro-code crowd for not jumping on and supporting you in this test idea, why should they? #How many no-code ops have you heard complain that the written test is too easy? #Most likely none or very few. #Feel free to call misguided and narrow minded all of the folks who do not agree with you. #If we (pro code) all are a disservice to the amateur community it is good you came along to save us then
Arend

[KC9ECI]

The no code test is too easy. Multiple guess is a poor test of knowledge. Randomly, you have a 25 percent chance of getting the answer to each question correct. With only 75 percent needed to pass, it's almost impossible to fail. I support dropping code, and giving the written test more substance.

[KB1GYQ]

This NCT has repeatedly stated that the test should be: you are handed a box of parts, a schematic (not a heathkit style for-dummies one), and a soldering iron -- when you are communating with the examiner in the next room via radio you have passed the test. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ai4ep]

and be sure to INCLUDE extra good parts that will NOT be used and a few WRONG parts ( makes it harder !! ) to the parts box.

[K9STH]

UEY:

Calm down! More threads get "hijacked" in this particular forum than keep to the original subject. As such, your outburst is really uncalled for! However, your attempt to bring it back on course is fine.

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[WF7I]

I've been a ham for 19 years. For a couple years prior I was a pretty active SWL'er (although a pretty young one!).

I don't think I've been on air long enough to judge how the CBer influx has affected the hobby. But as to general demeanor on the bands, for me at least, there hasn't been a huge change. I remember running into many bozos on the local 2m repeaters as well as on 40m SSB almost 20 years ago. I can remember people discussing how things had gone to the dogs even in those days. I think part of it is that people's memories are kind of selective. We tend to see the past in a more positive light than what it really was.

Sure, the conduct may have degraded. But it has not gone down to such a level that it has impacted my ability to enjoy the hobby, for the most part.

One thing I have noticed is that it seems to me the ham clubs have declined. The average age is very high, there seems to be a lot of bickering/arguing at meetings, and frankly they're just kind of boring. I felt there was more youth and more excitement at meetings 20 years ago, and more people willing to help others get started. These days, people in general seem to be more pissed at life. But I feel like that's true for our whole society and not just ham radio.

[N0ZB]

Energy and matter are neither created or destroyed, they merely change forms.

Yawn.

N0ZB, Proud member of the wet behind the ears clan.

[KD5KUF]

Quote[/b] (K7JBQ @ Sep. 20 2004,18:50)]YCO,

Consider this: The code test does not have questions and answers published. You can't memorize them. That's the difference for a lot of us.

73,
Bill
On this I beg to differ. A local man, who has a phonographic ear or a photographic eye, memorized the entire text of a sample CW test session, but did not memorize or learn the actual code.
He went to a test session and "copied" 100 percent of the QSO. Trouble was, ONE of the VE's (who was paying attention) spotted the fact that the text copied was not on any of their code testing tapes.
It has severely hurt his reputation and relationship with fellow hams in the area.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

It is about the only way you could cheat on a code test, but memorization is the norm for the written tests. I did not choose to take that path. I read the Now You're Talking book from cover to cover many times over six months and then took the online "test" to see if I had fully grasped the fundamentals. Results looked encouraging so I took my test and missed only one question.

I agree that many newbies who memorized, ask questions they would know if they had actually studied the material, but our schools now reward memorization and have no time for the students to actually learn something.

Don't blame the newbie for using the system strategies that work for them. It is a matter of survival in school these days. But take heart that those asking "questions they should know the answer to" realize the lack and honestly want to make up for it. They know they got ripped off from a real education by the school system. They are asking for someone to take the time that their teachers never did, to make them understand something fascinating to them. You can make a difference this way.

God am I glad I went to an old country school, where the little gray haired old ladies knew how to teach, but sadly the cute young new teachers coming in were clueless, but were very popular. Only now can I appreciate what the old ladies did for me that the young pretty ones never did. Taught me how to learn and how to think clearly. I was one of the last of the generation of learning around these parts. The "new education" set in shortly after. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[K7JBQ]

Joe,

That's funny.
Of course, that's also the difference between a sample test that uses published questions, and one that doesn't.

73,
Bill

[AE6QE]

Now, granted that I have only been on HF for about a year now, I do concur with the level of rudeness that many have expressed. One mentioned that he rarely hears rudeness on CW. I think that hits the nail on the head, in a way.

I spend most of my on-air time with PSK-31. While it's a plug-and-play mode, it still requires either building or buying additional equipment, a rudimentary knowledge of both radio and computer technologies, and a desire to do something beyond the "norm". Never have I experienced any rudeness on PSK-31, or when I've used other digital modes.

What this means to me, is when someone uses modes that take additional effort to use (CW, PSK31, RTTY etc.), the person is less likely to be the type to cause trouble. Perhaps it's because using SSB on HF or FM on VHF/UHF is perhaps the easiest thing to do! In the Navy, my training for "talking on the RT" was this simple: Think, key, speak.

What does this mean? I don't know...I just found an interesting coorelation. But, for anyone tired of the rudeness, I do whole-heartedly recommend PSK-31!

Rickey/AE6QE

[W8EFA]

I think it has changed over the years. However I think our whole society has changed.

I have had NFL season tickets for 25 Years. Used to be you would see families, and true football fans at the games. You had a few hooligans but they were the exception rather than the rule.

I have noticed a big change over the years. The games have turned into a big drunken party for most. Half the people there are drunk and causing trouble. People are afraid to take their children these days because of the public drunkeness, fights, and vulgar language. Let me say I am not a prude and like to have a few cold ones myself but this behavior is terrible.

I hope this analogy is not too far off track, but I think what we are seeing today in the Ham ranks is just a microcosm of our society's degeneration in general!

Glen,

A cogent and coherent (as usual) post!

Thanks!
73
Chuck K3FT

[K7JBQ]

EFA,

Whatever happened to "You don't live in Cleveland, you live in Cincinnati?"

73,
Bill

A lot has to do with what you will put up with.

if a group on the air does things that are 'outside the acceptable scope' of the norm for ham radio AND they choose NOT to change.. the best course is to ignore 'em - don't talk to 'em, don't give them publicity.

Those whom you teach and those with whom you discuss such things just impress them with the facts that such behaviour - while PERMITTED (perhaps) by the Rules or by the lack of enforcement - is NOT considered acceptable, proper, or appropriate by the ham radio community.

in other words.. let the idiots have their day. However, the more people who CHOOSE to avoid, evade, or instruct others will cause these folks to 'self-isolate' by the very fact that no one will want to talk with them.

the upside is that those who do choose to associate with them will become KNOWN and then be avoided by others.

It's ONE tactic amongst many. It works.. albeit slowly.. but it works.

[AG3Y]

I think the rudeness has a lot to do with the expected size of the audience ! On the digital modes ( including CW ) the conversations are largely one on one, and there is very little thought that the one doing the transmitting is going to have a large "listening" audience. What are they going to hear, anyway? A bunch of "beeps" and "weedles" !

In a situation such as a SSB "Net", there is a great amount of bolstering of an individual's ego and fortitude in that several operators are feeding off each other's boorish behavior. It is a kind of "mob behavior" which causes certain people to act in a way that they would never carry on as individuals.

Yes, society as a whole, has degenerated, and in order to avoid the results of that degeneration, sometimes you have to "take the road less traveled by" !

73, Jim

[K7JBQ]

Jim,

Good point. And made me think of another reason I enjoy CW.

The XYL rarely nags in International Morse.

73,
Bill

[ai4ep]

...and very little BELCHING is done in C W !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (K7JBQ @ Sep. 21 2004,16:54)]Jim,

Good point. And made me think of another reason I enjoy CW.

The XYL rarely nags in International Morse.

73,
Bill
sure they do.. just it sounds like "eeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

(tapping finger in impatience)

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 21 2004,19:16)]...and very little BELCHING is done in C W !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Are you sure you're not mistaking it for QLF?

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 21 2004,01:06)]Quote[/b] ] GYQ: This NCT has repeatedly stated that the test should be: you are handed a box of parts, a schematic (not a heathkit style for-dummies one), and a soldering iron -- when you are communating with the examiner in the next room via radio you have passed the test.

and be sure to INCLUDE extra good parts that will NOT be used and a few WRONG parts ( makes it harder !! ) to the parts box.
Some of the needed values would be missing, but able to be made using serial/parallel combination of those present...

[K7JBQ]

Isn't that how MFJ makes things?

73,
Bill

[ai4ep]

then...after 5 - 10 years of folks not being able to build a radio out of parts from a box they will want the tests made easier by learning the ( antiquidated ) morse code.

round and round and round they go


hee hee hee :0

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 21 2004,22:37)]then...after 5 - 10 years of folks not being able to build a radio out of parts from a box they will want the tests made easier by learning the ( antiquidated ) morse code.
now, now... an AM rig, albeit with a hot mic, is just as simple to build, and easier to use.

haw!

[ai4ep]

but if they can not learn a simple 5 word per minute MORSE CODE, what makes you think they can build a radio ?

As an example...which can YOU do easier ?
( me...morse code is easier )

So which is easier for YOU ?

[WF7I]

I'd agree with the consensus on there that the digital modes & CW seem to have less "hooliganism" than SSB or 2m FM.

But if you like phone, there are still plenty of opportunities for civilized conversation. On HF, I've had some of my most memorable QSOs on 17m and 12m phone. Even on 40m and 20m I've had some nice rag chews now and then. 80m -- well, I have to admit not too much success (seems like you have to "own" a frequency to get on the air, and have lots of buddies in a roundtable). I've heard 160m has a very solid reputation for polite conduct (although never had a 'tenna capable of working that band!).

On 2m, I avoid repeaters essentially 100% of the time. If you can do 2m SSB, you'll generally find a pretty classy group of ops. 6m is the same, from my experience.

Yeah, it'd be nice if all the bands were nice at all times, but whether it's due to a societal degeneration or what, they are NOT this way.

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 22 2004,09:54)]but if they can not learn a simple 5 word per minute MORSE CODE, what makes you think they can build a radio ?

As an example...which can YOU do easier ?
( me...morse code is easier )

So which is easier for YOU ?
Electronics is MUCH easier!!!!!

[N0PU]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Sep. 22 2004,18:24)]Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 22 2004,09:54)]but if they can not learn a simple 5 word per minute MORSE CODE, what makes you think they can build a radio ?

As an example...which can YOU do easier ?
( me...morse code is easier )

So which is easier for YOU ?
Electronics is MUCH easier!!!!!
And the reason it is easier for you [AND for me!] is that it uses a different set of skills...

Memorizing things a parroting them back has never been a skill of mine... took me many years of torture to get the frickin' multiplication tables... they just didn't stick... I understood them and could work them out, I just don't have good memorization skills...

I can work out the flow chart for some very complex computer programs, but I have to look up a lot of the syntax because I forget what order a function call comes in...

It is symptomatic of the same problem...

Some folks can 'see' the immediate circuit they are working on but can't 'see' the overall system.... some 'see' the system easily and have to take the circuits as they come...

Different strokes for different folks...
Neither type is right, neither is wrong...just different...

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] ]but if they can not learn a simple 5 word per minute MORSE CODE, what makes you think they can build a radio ?

That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen.

Not having one skill (Morse in this case) doesn't negate you having the other skill (build a radio).

Quote[/b] ]As an example...which can YOU do easier ?
( me...morse code is easier )

And that's YOU. Me, it's electronics. And my opinion is that the electronics is MUCH more important than "beeping". Obviously, you think "beeping" is more important. We agree to disagree, I suppose.

I'd much rather have people who can build radios in this "hobby" than people who can beep really fast. You seem to want the fast beepers, instead.

Unfortunately as it is going now, neither of us is getting what we want.

[K8ERV]

Will someone tell me briefly the meaning of the various "elements" for the ticket? Think I got mine back in '06, we did not have elements, and only Glen to talk to

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[K9STH]

ERV:

If you got your license in 1906 then you were not on the planet Earth! The Navy Department didn't start licensing of wireless stations in the United States until 1912. Also, you could have communicated with my father's father if he had been interested in wireless at the time. However, my father wasn't even born until 1916 and me in 1944!

Now, if you are referring to 2006 then, obviously, you have invented some type of "time machine" and have come back two years! Since the vast majority of us haven't traveled into the future, we don't have any idea as to the FCC's licensing requirements two years henceforth.

Glen, K9STH

[ky5u]

As I have said a hundred times before, give the NCTs HF in their own band segments, keep Element 1 for General and Extra. Those who want to progress will pass the Element 1 test and move on. Those who don't can still legally shoot skip in their band segment where the FCC can watch them.

[KB9YCO]

Interesting idea, the original novice licenses did include HF, so why not the current entry level license.

[KA9VQF]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Sep. 23 2004,16:30)]Interesting idea, the original novice licenses did include HF, so why not the current entry level license.
Why yes, it did. CW only @ 75 watts on a very small bit of the bands.

[ai4ep]

leave well enough alone

[ky5u]

Intrestingly enough, there is a link between the ARRL Bandplan by Bandwidth proposal and the telegraphy test removal argument. #One of the largest arguments for opponents of telegraphy testing is that Element 1 prevents "the younger generation" from getting into amateur radio. #

Nobody defines what the younger generation want in the way of modes in any petition. #Research by numerous industries show people between 13 and 30 want digital stuff. #Downloads, movies, music, games, email, etc. These are all BIG bandwidth users, and currently can't be done well on HF (with the exception of maybe email).

So, the anti-code forces want "the younger generation" to be amateurs and not learn the code. #Well, they can NOW with the NCT license. Additionally, the bandwidth needed for the digital modes research shows "the younger generation" want are available on frequencies accessable by the Technician license (which makes the "younger generation" and "technically inclined" hurt by Element 1 argument invalid). #Currently, no code access to HF would give them access to frequencies where they can't do the things they want to do.....UNLESS the bandplan was changed. #

The ARRL bandplan moves toward making the invalid anti-code argument work. #IF there were wider bandwidths available on HF, then you could logically argue that the "younger generation" was being prevented from #accessing them by Element 1.

[ai4ep]

IF cows had wings they could fly....but look at the run way they would need for take off / landing...plus who would want to be on the highway when a herd of them go flying over head and one of them has a " nature call " ?

Whew, what a mess !!


hee hee hee

Plus you could always tell when a flying cow has been roosting on your tower & beams...IF it is still standing, it possibly has a lean from all the weight !

[ai4ep]

Whew !!

[KC9ECI]

Birdie Birdie in the sky,
Drop some doo doo in my eye.
I won't moan.
I won't cry.
I'll just be glad that cows don't fly.

[K6UEY]

Tell me praytell where does this "BEEPING" that is talked about for CW transmissions take place.Are the No CODE people so ignorant that it sounds like "BEEPING". Maybe some more thought should be given for entry qualifications to Amateur Radio, The only "BEEPING" I'm familiar with is the EOT that is used on 2 meter repeaters to remind the not-so-bright it is their turn to talk. CB may also use that,but I'm not as familiar with that operation as many of the new Amateurs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KC9ECI]

The local repeater I use from time to time doesn't beep. It sends a dah di dah.

[KD7WHQ]

UEY, that is actually a courtesy tone sent out by the controller that indicates the talk timer has reset.
The bit on CB, is nonsense. NASA uses it due to possible inclarities in determining the end of a transmission, but that is about the only use in a transmission.

But, the beep on a repeater does have a purpose, and it has nothing to do with the users..

[K6UEY]

KD7WHQ,
Well I don't know how common the beep tone is on 2 meter repeaters, as I make it a point to stay off of them,but the last one I attempted to use had a EOT tone,that beeped when the PTT was let up on the person talking,it was a real irritant and as far as I can tell the only prupose was to let the Lid know the other station had completed a transmission.If as you say trhis is a discourtesy tone that the timer has been reset what is the prupose? Are you suppose to rest your watch every time the beep goes off.What ever happened to operator skills or did they go passe' in the old 20th Century. You would really have to have a single digit IQ,to need a talk timer on a 2 M repeater. # I know the EOT was a common item on Japenese 2M equipment not made for import to the US. It was the first time I had run into it on a repeater and I hope the last.If that is the caliber of those who use 2m, I can see why they are dying off.

[KB1DIW]

Perhaps those of you who have been shocked more than once with your CW paddles should try keying up on 2M/440 once in awhile.

If you are just now realizing that there are EOT tones off the repeaters, you have been out of touch WAY too long. Those have been around on repeaters for at least the last 10 years I have listened.

Sheeesh.

Also, I have a post-PTT ID on my radio, so when I am simplex (or repeater) people know when I am done talking. Better than saying "over"...which sounds about as gay as "hihi".

When you stop saying "hihi" on a repeater in the middle of a conversation, I will turn off my MDC1200.

[K6UEY]

KB1DIW,
No I don't think I have been out of touch too long.I was on 2m repeaters in fact helped in the development of 2m and 440 repeaters in the late 50's early 60's then got disgusted with what was going on and dropped out in the middle 70's.....Where were you ? #HI HI !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB1DIW]

Hmmm, prior to 1976, I was a gleem in my dad's eye...

Now lets do some simple math...

Middle 1970's (lets go with 1975).
Today is 2004.

That makes is 29 years. And you say "No I don't think I have been out of touch too long"http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Ooook.

This is the exactly what people are saying about some of the old timers....They don't want to expand their horzions..just as they same about some of the new timers (those lowley NCT's!). "Its been this way for 30 years, why do we need a change! Grrrrr!"

I hear this at work all the time, then we change things anyways. Nevermind that for the last 30 years with that mindset things have been "F"d up.

[K6UEY]

Well in a few years when you start to mature,you will look at things differently. Why change some thing that works well simply for the sake of change. Now if it is too complicated for you to fully understand then maybe it might appear all fouled up,but who's fault is that??For instance I changed from the use of Motorola Gear on VHF since it could no longer do the job properly,but I notice you are still struggling along with it. I see nothing wrong with it if you are willing to have your horizons limited,different strokes for different folks.When I moved 15 years ago I sent all the old Motorola gear to the dump with the rest of the useless trash.....HIHI http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB1DIW]

Hmmm lets see...

At age 28, I am...

The communications manager for a police department
Auxillary Police Officer
Director of Emergency management for communications for a town
Part time paid firefighter at the Firefighter II level with Hazmat operational
Volunteer firefighter for the past 8 years
Own a side business for emergency equipment installs and sales
Own my own home
Married without an arrest for domestic violence
Can honestly say "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" with a straight face

I'd say I am doing pretty well for myself considering.

And what can a Motorola not do that something else can on 2m? My motorola can do narrowband, wideband, digital IMBE, 255 channels...blah blah. I'd say that's pretty normal... In fact, I can change radio channels on from my computer mounted in the truck! How many ICOM's can do that? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

And for the record, I do have an ICOM in the truck as well. 2800H to be exact.

[KB9YCO]

Don't mind Orv, obviously he's ignorant to the subtle use of satire (the beeping comment about code) and would rather just assume that all younger people are stupid, that people with a tech license don't have a knowledge of radio, based simply on the fact that they have a tech license and don't know code (an assinine assumption), and insult them based on those broad assumptions that really have nothing to do with reality. Very progressive thinking. Nice work, you serve your cause well.

[w3sy]

KB1DIW claims:

<span style='color:blue'>Married without an arrest for domestic violence</span>

Brag, brag, brag.... haw!

Hmmmm... There's a Chris Rock routine that talks about stuff like that. He called it "taking credit it for what you are SUPPOSED to be doing in the first place."

"I ain't NEVAH been to jail!"

YOU AIN'T SUPPOSED TO GO TO JAIL!

"I takes CARE o' my keeds!"

YOU SUPPOSED TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR KIDS, YOU STUPID ******!

Chris Rock slays me every time.

Sorry to hijack the thread. As you were, gentlemen.

[K9STH]

Everyone calm down!

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[KB9YCO]

Noted and appreciated Glen, I just get tired of the constant insults, generalizations, and condescending attitudes that add nothing to the argument except further derision and hatred amongst the people arguing; arguing instead of debating, there is a difference.

[ei5ja]

[/quote] Don't you consider actual knowledge of radio and electronics more important than whether or not someone knows Morse code?
Anyone, anyone? Bueller?[/quote]


Yes, but the arguments anti and pro the code have been discussed ad infinitum and anything anyone has to say on the matter has already been said.

I have always been an advocate of keeping the code, but not hidebound by it's inclusion/exclusion.
i have (and am) an advocate of the teaching of as much theory as is necessary to enable an operator to build a basic transmitter/receiver.

I am not familiar with Orv's latest but I have never found him to be anti anybody. I cannot fault him for insisting that people read up on the simple things before asking them on the forum.
Orv may, at times, seem impatient but I cannot draw a thread between that and the implied elitism in some of the posts.

Keep a big heart and bear no animosities
73 ed http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (K8ERV @ Sep. 23 2004,08:20)]Will someone tell me briefly the meaning of the various "elements" for the ticket? Think I got mine back in '06, we did not have elements, and only Glen to talk to

:laugh:

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo
Why heck, man, when I started, the elements hadn't even been invented yet. Yeah, even the chemical elements.

Don't need no stinking 'beep' tone!

I call the repeater courtesy tone very discourteous. And roger beeps are 'negatory beeps' for me.

On a less satirical note, but still on the same subject, does anyone have any idea what is really the idea of echo on a CB radio? What is it really, honestly, supposed to do? I know reverb can enhance the sound of a guitar, unless it's done all the time, in which case it gets irritating. Aw, come on now, I mean, really, what is the purpose of the echo?

I have 27.185 programmed into my 706, my way of finding the humor channel. Can't use it for transmit of course, and wouldn't, and don't have an antenna that will work on 27 mhz, but it can receive somewhat there. The other day I was parked across the road from a major truck stop. Heard this guy with echo talking to someone else. Harder for me to understand than the other guy, who did not have echo.

Also heard some guy, yeah, this is for real, advertising (which is legal on CB by the way) his service. He was known as the Polish-man. Now I figured out, what he does is polish truck wheels. Six bucks a wheel, plus, he said, ten bucks tax (which I really doubt he pays since he is a traveler going all around the region.) And he said he had medium duty equipment. But I began to wonder about anyone advertising polishing! And then there were two of them, competition, I guess. And they had customers lining up, no joke.

Couple more echos and I could listen no more. Echos? Roger beeps? Polish your wheels? The antenna was tuned to 20 meters, so that's where I went. Ah, no roger beeps, no CBers, no echos. And nobody offering to polish anything.

Ain't ham radio great?

Ed

Yeah, it was simpler back then, Tom. Only a few elements.

Ed,

Just be glad he wasn't advertising knob polishing! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

All those 'noisemakers' on CB are just like those 'fancy' lights that people put on their cars which act like the flickering marquees on the old style movie theatres that come on when they hit the brakes.

or those hubcaps that rotate whether the car is moving or not..

Or the guys who put those colored lights on the UNDERSIDE of their car so when they drive at night (or park with the lights on) the underside of the car has a multicolored array of lights shining from underneath.

Doesn't add much to the car.. but sure 'Looks cool!'.. That's the same type of thing you get with all the noisymakers on CB rigs.. don't add ANY value.. but sure 'sound cool'!

I heard one guy.. about 20 years ago who had (I kid you not)

Roger beep... tweety bird.. pinger.. echo box... and at the end a very pronouced 'CRASSSHHHHH' sound like a cymbal crash as the end of a 'badda BING'.

So it would sound like this.

(echo sound effect on his speech) "RAHJAH DAHJAH! WE BE GONE, DOWN, AND TEN DOUBLE SEVEN FER SURE!" (release PTT echo stops).. ""BEEEEP.. chirpchirpchirpchirrrrrp.. PINGPING.. CRASSHHHHHHHHhhhhhh!"

It took 4-6 seconds from the time he let the PTT go until it all stopped - depending if he rekeyed the PTT! Fascinating!)

This happened at the end of EACH AND EVERY TRANSMISSION!

people used to agitate him or call him JUST to hear all the crap. I think they did it just to bother everyone else on the channel! Cheap entertainment for them, I guess!

[ai4ep]

Problem with that type of stuff is it dont last too long...quality is low...maintenance is high....I hear fewer noise toys on cb now than I did in January of this year ( also fewer operators ).

I see fewer vehicles with any kind of cb antenna on it ( especially the newer models tend NOT to have one, or a magnet mount...if any !! ).

Then 5 minutes later you see a 1980 model pick up with 3 different cb antennas on it ( wonder if they are all any good / being used ? ).

Cell Phone use has really hurt the cb world ( IMHO ), but you still hear the "smokey reports...debris in the road ( traffic hazards ) and the " excort systems of moving house trailers {mobile homes } through the area ".

So all in all, for the past week or so, it HAS been quieter than it used to be ( also less dx from wherever ); so (IMHO ) it is either a combination of folks doing >>>

* tired of the racket in the past and just having no kind of communication

* upgrade to AMATEUR radio

* went to cell phone exclusively

* combo of cell phone & AMATEUR radio use.

but you never really know what you may hear tomorrow morning.

A I 4 E P

[wd5kca]

What happened to the original message of this topic? Look back at page 1.

[KB1DIW]

K6UEY:

Out of curiosity, what Motorola radio's did you use, and what did you use them for?

[N0KLT]

Orv,

If you think the single 'curtesy beep' tone on a repeater is irritating, come out here and listen to this one we hear every once in awhile when the 2 meter band is open. The thing is in another state southeast of here, probably 100+ miles away, maybe a bit farther. But every time the band comes up, we get to hear all or part of the conversations on that repeater here in Lincoln, Ne. The blessed thing has what we have taken to calling a doodle-oop set of tones, say the word doodle-oop in a high tone of voice and go farther up with the 'oop' part and you have an idea what the thing sounds like. I can put up with or ignore the single beeps but this multiple thing sets my teeth on edge. I am just grateful I don't hear it very often. This is on the same pair of freqs that one of our local repeaters that is used for public service quite a bit. I try to stay off repeaters as much as I can but every once in awhile it can't be avoided. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

73

Gary NØKLT

[K6UEY]

KB1DIW,
GEE!I don't know that I can remember what models were used,seems the early ones were 41V does that sound right, later there was I think Motrac,some GE progress line mixed in also,but all that was before the Japeneses Radios hit the market.
To get on the repeater you either converted Motorola Gear or you built your own. The repeater group I was associated with was probably the most sophisticated machine on at that time.
We Had 2m and 440 with intertie or separate monitoring,we had a phone patch as well as a separate phone control system to back up our 1000 channel decoder. It was a touch tone decoder,no big deal but Ma Bell was still using rotary dial.
We had a complete weather station up at the site with crontrolled down link telemetry,we could monitor things like wind speed,direction and temperature right from the mobile.
We had 2 cameras which were remoted down on 1200 mcs,one on the outside top of the building, with 2 way talk back and az/el and zoom control, for site security, the other was inside, fixed looking at our status control panel with colored LED's to show total status of all the equipment at the site.
We had an intertie with other sites,we could go in on 2m tie to MT VACA about 100 miles away that inturn tied to a system that terminated in the Mt. Shasta area about 350 miles north,then the system would link back and we could talk to our self on the 440 output,all the interties were through the TT decoder so totally switchable.This was all during the early 60's and later.
All the equipment at the site was home built and designed. Everything was documented very professionally right down the the color of the interconnect wire. In that way any modifications or additional equipment installations could be planned down in the valley before we went to the mountain. It also aided in trouble shooting when some one had to go up the mountain in the middle of the night.
So yes I am some what familiar with repeaters and commercial motorola and other gear but not any thing lately. I went on to bigger and more interesting things to play with in Amateur Radio........ http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
NØKLT,
Gary,I always thought that if you were so inexperienced you didn't reconize a squelch tail,or you were not paying attention to what was being said enough to tell when they other guy stopped talking,then maybe you should be listening and learning rather than talking. Glen has mentioned it a few times about some of the guys who come up from CB and bring their bad habits with them,that's my opinion of a beeper to tell you it is time to talk.Sounds like your machine needed a decoder to prevent it being triggered by the distant machine,but that's how we all learn to overcome the difficulties, innovation is half of what Ham Radio is all about. I at times feel sad most of the newcomers have no concept of what Amateur Radio is all about,being an appliance operator and shooting skip just does not feed the bull dog,they are cheating themselves of 90 % of the joy of Amateur Radio. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ei5ja]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Sep. 26 2004,21:16)]. I at times feel sad most of the newcomers have no concept of what Amateur Radio is all about,being an appliance operator and shooting skip just does not feed the bull dog,they are cheating themselves of 90 % of the joy of Amateur Radio. # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Too true.
Ed