CBS NEWS.......THE FUBAR FOURTH ESTATE

[WA5KRP]

I'm old enough to remember when Edward R. Murrow was still a household name, as was Chet Huntley and David Brinkley, Walter Cronkite, and more recently, Dan Rather.

A simple internet search will reveal to anyone who takes the time that America had a politician spiraling out of control back in the early 50's, terrifying any Communist (read that anybody suspected of being a Communist sympathizer) with association with the Rosenbergs and a plot to overthrow the American government and its people. #Mr. Murrow, on the strength of his reputation and his unbelievable raw guts, took on Senator Joseph McCarthy and single handedly sent that fool to the political toilet. #At the time Mr. Murrow was an employee of CBS.

More recently CBS has put a vote of confidence in its anchorman Dan Rather and his team of reporters attempting to discredit our President on 60 Minutes (whatever the weekday thingy is called). #I cannot speak for the late Mr. Murrow, but having seen CBS Rather's allegations being dismantled document by document and expert witness by expert witness since that program was televised, I think time is nigh to send Dan Rather to the newsroom toilet. A newsman spiraling out of control is every bit as dangerous as a politician.

Mr. Murrow's legacy deserves far, far better.


WA5KRP
Texas

[K9STH]

"Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea" while he sent CW on his "bug"! Now, how about that for an amateur radio connection!

No, I really don't remember that much of him, but I have seen newsreels of when he was doing his news reporting from London during "the blitz"!

Glen, K9STH

[KG6JTB]

There was a report that two document experts told ABC that they advised CBS not to run the story on the memo citing their concerns to it autheticity.

It's another black eye for Rather & the Communist Broadcasting System.

Dave
KG6JTB

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KG6JTB @ Sep. 14 2004,21:30)]There was a report that two document experts told ABC that they advised CBS not to run the story on the memo citing their concerns to it autheticity.

It's another black eye for Rather & the Communist Broadcasting System.

Dave
KG6JTB
It's getting worse... according to the New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/30329.htm)... well... I will let you read it for yourself:

Quote[/b] ] The expert chosen by CBS to check Dan Rather's disputed National Guard documents got his start as a graphologist analyzing "Spirituality in Handwriting" and lacks recognized document training, The Post has learned.

Analyst Marcel Matley lists "Spirituality in Handwriting" and "Female/Male Traits in Handwriting" on the Web site for a foundation he serves as librarian. They were privately printed, but another analyst provided portions to The Post.

In "Spirituality in Handwriting," Matley assesses a woman's "libidinal energy" based on her handwriting.

So the document expert wasn't a document expert, but he was a signature expert... but he is a decidedly wacky signature expert, too.

And the slide continues...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Sep. 14 2004,23:22)]"Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea" while he sent CW on his "bug"! #Now, how about that for an amateur radio connection!
That was Walter Winchell.

[n9yb]

What is being reported in this morning's news is that CBS went "expert" shopping until it found a couple of experts who agreed that the documents in question were authentic.

The first two experts contacted did not feel they were authentic and one of them even contacted the producer of CBS evening new the day before it aired to express their doubts.


It isn't looking good for CBS.


All news agencies need to get out of the ratings business and get back into the quality news business.

Remember "back in the day" - when a reporter was giving an opinion, that portion of the broadcast had its own segment. News organizations even went so far as to make the editorialist (if there is such a word) sit on a set that said "Editorial" in the background or super imposed the word "Editorial" on the screen to specifically separate opinion from news. Today, it all blurs together and that is wrong.

[n9yb]

Here is a link to an article related to my post.

It looks like the broadcasters are turning on one another (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/bush_guard_documents_040914.html)

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Sep. 15 2004,07:35)]Remember "back in the day" - when a reporter was giving an opinion, that portion of the broadcast had its own segment. #News organizations even went so far as to make the editorialist (if there is such a word) sit on a set that said "Editorial" in the background or super imposed the word "Editorial" on the screen to specifically separate opinion from news. #
Perhaps you remember when Walter Cronkite was the (THE) news anchor at CBS, there was often a two or three minute editorial made by Eric Sevareid. Mr. Sevareid's segment was a "Commentary", and CBS called it that. Since Mr. Sevareid's editorials often challenged my limited intellectual capacity, I referred to him as Eric Clarified.

If you compare the trust America had in CBS and Walter Cronkite 20 years ago with what exists today with Dan Rather, you will come to realize how far CBS has fallen.

The only way Rather can pull out of this with his credibility intact is to produce the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS that were the basis of his report. Anything less will make it clear he is a dupe and should be fired.

And that's the way it is..........



WA5KRP
Texas

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Sep. 15 2004,06:40)]The only way Rather can pull out of this with his credibility intact is to produce the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS that were the basis of his report. Anything less will make it clear he is a dupe and should be fired.
KRP,

The problem is, the originals are probably forgeries themselves. What would it look like if CBS releases the originals and it is proven they came from a laser printer? Those certainly didn't exist in the 70s.

[K9STH]

MIV:

I knew that it was one of the old newscasters!

The London blitz was several years before I was born!

Glen, K9STH

[AG3Y]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Sep. 15 2004,07:35)]Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Sep. 14 2004,23:22)]"Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea" while he sent CW on his "bug"! #Now, how about that for an amateur radio connection!
That was Walter Winchell.
Right, Edward R. Morrow's byline was, "This is London"

He became famous by taking a microphone to the rooftops and letting the world listen to the bombs as they fell on the city! ( While all the "sane" people were hiding out in the bomb shelters! )

There isn't a reporter alive today that can hold a candle to the likes of Ed Morrow and his team!

I wonder what he would have thought of being "embedded" with the soldiers in Iraq ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

73 from Jim

[K9STH]

Speaking of being "embedded": I wonder how Ernie Pyle would have responded to the present state of reporting had he not been killed late in World War II.

Glen, K9STH

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Sep. 15 2004,13:18)]Speaking of being "embedded": #I wonder how Ernie Pyle would have responded to the present state of reporting had he not been killed late in World War II.

Glen, K9STH
Alas, Ernie Pyle's life has been burnished more by his leaving of it than by much of what he wrote during the war.

He was an unabashed critic of the brass and promoter of the lowly "GI" (WWI it was "doughboy" and later evolved into "Grunt"). The troops loved him, much as they loved Bill Mauldin the cartoonist famed for Willy and Joe, but a modern read of his columns in light of history is quite revealing. Pyle was wrong much of the time when he was waxing "analytical," though brilliant in his ability to give one a real flavor of what it was like to endure combat in Europe and then in the Pacific.

He was not the least bit "objective," but then that was not a trait considered overly important sixty years ago. It has only been in the past several decades that the press (here read all media) has developed the current affectation of "professional" with an finely honed sense of self-importance with regard to their place in both society and to their "value" to the nation.

Walter Winchell, of course, was a classic trouble-maker and gossip-monger in the old-school fashion. To his everlasting credit, however, he would not deny this. He was an old-time newspaper man who found a way to make a lot of money feeding juicy tidbits to gullible fools. In other words, a trend-setter.

Ed Murrow, too, became one of the earliest "journalist-showmen," a leader in this movement that led to the current state of newsrooms everywhere (remember the show where he went into people's homes to interview them about Barbara Walters-like topics?): it is entertainment being hawked under the guise of journalism and it has about reached the bottom of the barrel—indeed, I would argue that Rather and his ilk are now pulling the boards out and digging around in the muck under the barrel.

Andy Rooney is another hack with gilded memories: he was a wartime reporter for Stars and Stripes (much as Al Gore served in Saigon during the VN mess) and now gives advise and commentary as though he were in the trenches. There were many men, Walter Cronkite for example, who waded ashore or jumped out of C47s with the troops and worked under fire to get their stories.

Ernie Pyle was just another of those reporters who was unfortunate enough to be on the wrong tiny island at the wrong moment. Don't misunderstand me, I do not deprecate him or his accomplishments; it's just that many lionize him all out of proportion.

[WB2WIK]

Seems to me old Walt Winchell's broadcasts were addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. North and South America, and all the ships at sea...let's go to press!"

Of course I was minus 20 years old when Winchell took to the air.

Dan is someone I'd Rather not watch or listen to, so I don't.

WB2WIK/6

[AG3Y]

Come on Albert, tell us what you REALLY think ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Seriously, those are fascinating thoughts. I wonder what you might have thought about Lowell Thomas ? I've read his autobiography about the years leading up to WWII, and would love to read more. He did publish at least a second book on his later career, but I have not tracked it down, yet.

I was born in 1947, sorry to say I don't remember much at all about actually hearing Thomas on the air. He was definately a Radio personality, although Morrow really came into his own in early Television news.

I do remember Morrow's, "You Are There", "See It Now" and the interviews he did with people in their households. If you think about how huge and bulky those old RCA cameras used to be, you really have to give the television crews a lot of credit for what they accomplished on those shows! I believe they were done "live", as was almost all television ( except for the occasional filmed program ) . Taking all that equipment into a house and setting up a program must have been a huge task!

BTW, another one of Morrow's accomplishments was a set of recordings called "I Can Hear It Now!" which interspersed "sound bites" and his commentary. The recording I owned, and played over and over until I literally wore it out, featured such personalities as Neville Chamberland, Theo. LaGuardia ( Mayor of N.Y. ), Charles Lindberg, etc. etc. I credit that recording for my early interest in the radio medium and current history. It was probably very instrumental for my choice to go into broadcasting!

73 from Jim

[AG3Y]

BTW, who can forget Walter Winchell's introductions to the TV show "The Untouchables" ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Sep. 15 2004,14:11)]BTW, who can forget Walter Winchell's introductions to the TV show "The Untouchables" ? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Yeah man, Winchell had a distinctive voice and delivery. He talked like he was throwing punches with his fists. Very forceful and entertaining.

Another voice of that era that jumps to mind is Jimmy Durante. I LOVED to listen to that man talk. I've often wondered what he sounded like when he got home, closed the door, and talked to the dog.

BACK TO TOPIC:


CBS initially said they were going to have an announcement at noon EDT today. They then rescheduled for 2pm EDT. Nothing so far.......and it's 3:30pm EDT.

There's gotta be something big brewing. GAWD I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Dan Rather's office.


WA5KRP
Texas

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Sep. 15 2004,15:08)]...Lowell Thomas...
His line was "So long until tomorrow." One of the many great voices. Did lots of movie news in the days before TV (Pathé, Movietone, etc). Others of the great voices were Pegler and VanVoorhis.

As with all things, the business has changed over these many years, and not necessarily for the better.

I do not deprecate any of these folks; but I try to be truly objecting in light of history, not of their respective political viewpoints (some of which were fairly extreme). The old ways were often far more honest than today's sogenannte "professional objectivity," which is nothing but BS in every case. In the "old days" of journalism, you knew just exactly where Hearst or Pulitizer stood. Colonel McCormick, for example, did not pull punches or claim to be the soul of neutrality with his Chicago paper—he did not pretend to be objective or dispassionate. Anybody remember the Manchester (Vermont) Union Leader?

It was better when the ideological viewpoints of press and media were open and clear.

They were journalists with a clear (and sometimes compelling) mission; these bozos now (Rather, Jennings or whoever) are front men for a cause—the rim job of Coastal Political Hooey that has captured MY Democratic Party and turned it to mush. No ideas. No credibility. Nothing but special-interest politics (the Dems now make the Republicans look like pikers) and an inability to ever get over the Sixties lack of compass.



http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K0RGR]

Actually, laser printers did exist in the 1970's, at least as early as 1976 - they were about 50 feet long and cost several $ million. I worked down the hall from where they were tested.

If these documents were forgeries, we really need to know where they came from. Don't assume they came from the Kerry camp, either. I don't think it matters one way or the other. We can safely assume that it wasn't charisma that propelled the future president from the bottom of the waiting list to the top ahead of everyone else.

[K3UD]

I think that Matt Drudge might be as close to Winchell as exists today.

As far a Morrow is concerned, he road the wave of network popularity for a long time, but in the end, his ratings and popularity began to dip and his much acclaimed program "See It Now" was dropped from a regular CBS fixture to a very occasional special. I also think his health was a large factor.

I always heard that his time slot was replaced by the Mr. Ed show (The talking horse) Can anyone confirm this?

73
George
K3UD

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Sep. 15 2004,13:30)]Actually, laser printers did exist in the 1970's, at least as early as 1976 - they were about 50 feet long and cost several $ million. I worked down the hall from where they were tested.
RGR, the forged documents that CBS is trying to defend were supposedly written in 1971 or 1972... so that's still four to five years before the test versions you mention.

Nice try, tho. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] ]If these documents were forgeries, we really need to know where they came from. Don't assume they came from the Kerry camp, either. I don't think it matters one way or the other.


Indeed we need to know where they came from, regardless of the source. And we need to know the vetting process CBS used prior to putting them on the air - in all of its detail.

CBS really needs to do a McNeil Labs and open up with full disclosure and accept all responsibility for the product they put to market.

If is it authentic. Prove it beyond doubt. Facts should stand on their own legs.

If it is fake - do the mea culpa - lop some heads - comit to improving the organization.

[w0dz]

I don't care where the documents came from. I don't care whether Bush shirked his duty in the Guard. I don't care about John Kerry's atrocities, or his throwing his medals away, or his service record.

I do care about today. I care whether Bush can effectively lead the military and go after bad guys tat threaten us and inspire patriotism. I think he can do all that. I would also care, were Kerry to get elected, that he be able to do that. I don't think he can.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (w0dz @ Sep. 15 2004,14:56)]I don't care where the documents came from. I don't care whether Bush shirked his duty in the Guard. I don't care about John Kerry's atrocities, or his throwing his medals away, or his service record.

I do care about today. I care whether Bush can effectively lead the military and go after bad guys tat threaten us and inspire patriotism. I think he can do all that. I would also care, were Kerry to get elected, that he be able to do that. I don't think he can.
Responding to a crisis and sending troops into battle isn't my concern. Really, all you require for that is a pen.

My problem is that George hasn't been able to _complete_ the job. Osama is still thumbing his nose at George, Afghanistan is likely NOT to have the schedule elections and we all know about Iraq.

Certainly we didn't defeat the Japanese in two years and we didn't quit when things were going badly; but I have to believe the American people felt we had a plan. And I don't see that right now.

[N0KLT]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Sep. 15 2004,08:25)]MIV:

I knew that it was one of the old newscasters!

The London blitz was several years before I was born!

Glen, K9STH
Edward R. Murrow among other things was known for his tv interviw show called Person to Person. Usually, as I remember the show, he sat at a desk or may just in front of a screen and interviewed his quest of the week by remote. He would sit there and chain smoke through the whole show, at times so much smoke from his cigarette around him it was like looking at him through a fog. But he had a great voice and a manner that was very comforting and convincing. I do sort of remember him doing other news stories but the thing I remember him most for was that show. Great guy, great reporter.

73

Gary NØKLT

[K6UEY]

KA8NCR,
I have a couple of questions about your comments,
You say you are not interested in how our leader reacts to a Crisis? You mean if we were attacked once again ,and the only action we took was to send a letter complaining to the UN,that would be a satisfactory response for you?
I don't follow your logic about the job in Iraq. You say GW has not finished the job so you want to replace him with some one who has no clue what is going on,and is willing to dump it in the hands of the UN ? If you were listening to the Presidents address before the invasion he EMPHASIZED,this would be no short time project,also promised to stay the course and follow through. An action our country has not built a favorable reputation of doing in the past.
Osama Bin Laden thumbing his nose at GW,I hardly think that is happening,he is running and hiding in Pakistan,where he knows we can't get to him. The Talleban originated in Pakistan before taking over Afghanistan.There are Talleban strong holds who offer Osama refuge.The Pakistani troops are only half heartily trying to clean out those areas,why,because they have not forgotten how the previous Administration promised them help if they would settle the Pakistan/ India border clash with out resorting to Nuclear action,which they did and as soon as they did their part we packed up and left them holding the bag. That kind of action may be acceptable in this country,but over there to give your word then renig on your promise is not esaily forgotten.What goes around ,comes around.Osama will be caught but he is now a very small part of the overall terrorist movement,he is like a Mayor of a town,a figure head only. Time spent chasing him in the mountains of Pakistan ( Where we are not allowed to go) would be time wasted,there are bigger fish to fry in the terrorist structure.And they are being actively sought both Foriegn and Domestically.
The elections in Afghanistan are still scheduled,but we will have to see how that turns out, the WAR Lords do not like the idea of giving up power,and you are right about Iraq,those elections will be held right on schedule just as promised.
You note the persistance in fighting Japan to the conclusion in WWII,then you turn and want to give up on Iraq, I'm sorry I don't see the logic there.The only connection I can see is they did not consult you as to what the plan was to be,well if it any consulation to you they did not consult me either,but I don't despair several Govenment actions have been successfully undertaken with out my knowledge or consent. We live in a Republic where we are represented by elected officials,not in a Democracy where your vote is required for every action. That is precisely the point of electing the proper person who has proven he can do the job,and offer him the time and support he needs to finish that job. # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[w0dz]

Man, so we have a video game culture or what? Some seem to expect wars to be quick and decisive, with clear winners and losers and then let's move on to the next crisis. We could learn a thing or two about the strategy of the people we are fighting, who have a vision for world conquest that they are willing to wait MILLENNIA for. They know we will tire of the game eventually. Our "problem" is that we don't desire world domination. It would be so easy if we did. We have the power to crush just about anyone. But we don't, do we?

We wish to have a world in which people can have the kind of freedom we enjoy, but we don't aspire to conquer countries and add them as stars to our flag in order to give them that freedom. If we conquer, it is to liberate, then we turn them loose, for better or worse. It is then up to them to make something of their opportunity. We have to be the first and only strong power that has this "catch and release" policy.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

[K6UEY]

WØDZ,
You just may have hit a soft spot.It may be with these computers the younger generation has lost sight of reality.Just look in our own little world of Amateur Radio,many can not decipher the boundry line between Amateur Radio and the Internet.
Schools now won't hold class even at the lower grammer grades unless each student has their own computer.The kids at home must have their own wireless PC and a Laptop plus their own notebook PC.The younger generation is so submerged into computers they may have lost track of real time and only the cyber world seems real to them.
That would explain why all the successful programs President Bush has initiated go totally unnoticed,when asked what he has accomplished they are at a complete loss,because it did not come across their screen as some kind of Cyber Game so it is thought of as a total inequity.
When President Bush declared it could be a long engagement they took that to mean until the end of summer or until the Fall TV season starts,or Football returns to TV.
By Jove!! I think you may have the answer!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Sep. 15 2004,20:13)]WØDZ,
You just may have hit a soft spot.It may be with these computers the younger generation has lost sight of reality.Just look in our own little world of Amateur Radio,many can not decipher the boundry line between Amateur Radio and the Internet.
Schools now won't hold class even at the lower grammer grades unless each student has their own computer.The kids at home must have their own wireless PC and a Laptop plus their own notebook PC.The younger generation is so submerged into computers they may have lost track of real time and only the cyber world seems real to them.
That would explain why all the successful programs President Bush has initiated go totally unnoticed,when asked what he has accomplished they are at a complete loss,because it did not come across their screen as some kind of Cyber Game so it is thought of as a total inequity.
When President Bush declared it could be a long engagement they took that to mean until the end of summer or until the Fall TV season starts,or Football returns to TV.
By Jove!! I think you may have the answer!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
What? More heresay regarding computers in the lower grades.

UEY, where are you getting your information? As you know, I live in California too, and I've heard nothing of the sort. More talk radio nonsense from you!

Has KFBK gotten that bad? Or do you get your info from some sub-carrier #charismatic #nutjob?

I've held this back, as I wanted to wait on this, but I have to ask you, now Orv...

Quote from Repo Man (1984) "Did you eat a lot of acid, (UEY) during the hippie days?"

WX7B

[W8EFA]

Let me add some facts to UEY and others insinuating that the Bush Administration warned us (and thought themselves) the war and then peace would be long and tough.

They expected a cakewalk. How many times did we hear Bush say Mission Accomplished? #

Donald Rumsfeld said that he didn't know how long for sure but certainly less than 6 months.

Cheney said "Iraquis will see us as liberators".

This administration failed to understand the situation we were getting into. #They failed to plan for the peace and how we get out.

They just plain failed with their arrogant idealogical incompetence!

[w0dz]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Sep. 15 2004,21:47)]Let me add some facts to UEY and others insinuating that the Bush Administration warned us (and thought themselves) the war and then peace would be long and tough.

They expected a cakewalk. How many times did we hear Bush say Mission Accomplished? #

Donald Rumsfeld said that he didn't know how long for sure but certainly less than 6 months.

Cheney said "Iraquis will be seen as liberators".

This administration failed to understand the situation we were getting into. #They failed to plan for the peace and how we get out.

They just plain failed with there arrogant idealogical incompetence!

1. They did say it would be a long fight. They were not talking about the capture of Saddam and liberation of Iraq but about terrorism and the need to bring democracy to the Arab countries. And that *will*take time.

2. It was a cakewalk. As far as the actual liberation, capture or killing of the bad guys and establishment of an interim government, one year ain't too bad compared to most wars. And to lose only 1000 people doing it is just incredible given the magnitude of the task.

3. Doubt that Cheney said anything about Iraqis being the liberators. Us maybe. And to many (whom you will not see on the news), we are.

4. How can you really believe there was no plan for peace? There is an interim government now, with elections scheduled for January. That government has asked us to stay to help keep the fragile peace. Sounds like a plan to me.

5. You meant to use the word "their". You spelled ideological wrong. Other than that, that last sentence is a total non-sequitur. Arrogance - I don't see it. Ideological - yep. It's called wanting to have everyone live in freedom. Incompetence - ask the generals and troops who are doing the work if they are incompetent.

The Iraq war has been, by any measure, one of the most stunning successes in recent history:

* Caught or killed numerous bad guys
* Liberated 20M people from tyranny
* Lost the fewest soldiers in a major action ever
* Created an interim government with elections scheduled for January
* Caused an astonishingly low loss of life on the other side for a war of this magnitude
* Let other dictators know we mean business (no thanks to the liberals who would cut and run)
* Established a military presence in the Middle East
* Kept Saddam from developing WMDs again
* Are helping women in the region overcome decades of abuse

So quit your whining. We're the good guys, remember? We done good. Be proud.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (w0dz @ Sep. 15 2004,21:43)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Sep. 15 2004,21:47)]Let me add some facts to UEY and others insinuating that the Bush Administration warned us (and thought themselves) the war and then peace would be long and tough.

They expected a cakewalk. How many times did we hear Bush say Mission Accomplished? #

Donald Rumsfeld said that he didn't know how long for sure but certainly less than 6 months.

Cheney said "Iraquis will be seen as liberators".

This administration failed to understand the situation we were getting into. #They failed to plan for the peace and how we get out.

They just plain failed with there arrogant idealogical incompetence!

1. They did say it would be a long fight. They were not talking about the capture of Saddam and liberation of Iraq but about terrorism and the need to bring democracy to the Arab countries. And that *will*take time.

2. It was a cakewalk. As far as the actual liberation, capture or killing of the bad guys and establishment of an interim government, one year ain't too bad compared to most wars. And to lose only 1000 people doing it is just incredible given the magnitude of the task.

3. Doubt that Cheney said anything about Iraqis being the liberators. Us maybe. And to many (whom you will not see on the news), we are.

4. How can you really believe there was no plan for peace? There is an interim government now, with elections scheduled for January. That government has asked us to stay to help keep the fragile peace. Sounds like a plan to me.

5. You meant to use the word "their". You spelled ideological wrong. Other than that, that last sentence is a total non-sequitur. Arrogance - I don't see it. Ideological - yep. It's called wanting to have everyone live in freedom. Incompetence - ask the generals and troops who are doing the work if they are incompetent.

The Iraq war has been, by any measure, one of the most stunning successes in recent history:

* Caught or killed numerous bad guys
* Liberated 20M people from tyranny
* Lost the fewest soldiers in a major action ever
* Created an interim government with elections scheduled for January
* Caused an astonishingly low loss of life on the other side for a war of this magnitude
* Let other dictators know we mean business (no thanks to the liberals who would cut and run)
* Established a military presence in the Middle East
* Kept Saddam from developing WMDs again
* Are helping women in the region overcome decades of abuse

So quit your whining. We're the good guys, remember? We done good. Be proud.
Dz:

One thing you're forgetting:

This war was completely unnecessary

Rescue from tyranny? Maybe, but now we have a client state, that has exactly the same problems.

Spare us the "macho" BS. That stuff appeals to the lower common denominators in our society. Our "Kick Butt" in Iraq means no more than our previous "victories" is Grenada or Panama. It shows US resolve is only valid when we have a patsy enemy. It really shows our true weakness of resolve...

Let other dictators know we mean business (no thanks to the liberals who would cut and run)
[I] -w0dz

More BS rhetoric from the right. Which dictators are we targeting now? The only dictators left in the middle east are our allies! Your rhetoric is ancient cold war nonsense.

Since when did right wing nuts give a hoot about women's rights? FLip-Flop central, to be sure.

We should be the good guys. We blew it on this one. You should stop whining about any dissent against Bush and his foreign policy mistakes.

WX7B

[n3ijw]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 16 2004,02:01)]Since when did right wing nuts give a hoot about women's rights?
what is this supposed to mean?

btw the answer is "ever since the Republican party pioneered the right of women to vote".

[w0dz]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2004,23:01)]Dz:

One thing you're forgetting:

This war was completely unnecessary
That's the liberal bottom line, isn't it? I submit that ALL wars are unnecessary. One course of action, the one pursued by Bill Clinton that got us into this mess and the one I believe would be pursued by John Kerry, is to do nothing and be conquered by those who *do* find war to be necessary. Better red than dead, eh?

The question is, when do you decide that enough is enough? Liberals would prefer to do nothing, let the rest of the world move along at whatever pace it wants, and leave us alone to enjoy our technology and our arts. Conservatives prefer to fight for things we believe in.

The world does not end at our shores anymore. The U.S. has interests in all reaches of the globe. Oil is important. Global manufacturing is a reality. American citizens are everywhere. They deserve protection. The terrorists are everywhere too, and have promised to kill every one of us. I think the time has come to utterly annihilate them, whatever that takes. They started this. We must end it. No one else can.

[AG3Y]

Remember George Carlin's newscast , " Another sensless murder today . . . tell me, what would be a SENSIBLE murder ? " Good question !http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[K7JBQ]

Jim,

Back when Alaska was a territory, there was a law on the books that said that, before anyone could be tried for murder, first there had to be a determination as to whether or not the victim "needed killing."

73,
Bill

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (w0dz @ Sep. 16 2004,08:32)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 15 2004,23:01)]Dz:

One thing you're forgetting:

This war was completely unnecessary
That's the liberal bottom line, isn't it? I submit that ALL wars are unnecessary. One course of action, the one pursued by Bill Clinton that got us into this mess and the one I believe would be pursued by John Kerry, is to do nothing and be conquered by those who *do* find war to be necessary. Better red than dead, eh?

The question is, when do you decide that enough is enough? Liberals would prefer to do nothing, let the rest of the world move along at whatever pace it wants, and leave us alone to enjoy our technology and our arts. Conservatives prefer to fight for things we believe in.

The world does not end at our shores anymore. The U.S. has interests in all reaches of the globe. Oil is important. Global manufacturing is a reality. American citizens are everywhere. They deserve protection. The terrorists are everywhere too, and have promised to kill every one of us. I think the time has come to utterly annihilate them, whatever that takes. They started this. We must end it. No one else can.
The big problem is figuring out what conservative really believe in.

Iraq was the wrong target, from day one. This whole stupid war was politically motivated from the beginning. The Bush administration was planning an operation on Iraq before 9/11, and 9/11 gave them the excuse.

Spare me the Democrats are weak argument. Republicans show their weakness by picking the wrong targets and squandering our national treasure in money and lives justifying their boneheaded actions.

The only things I see happening now are:

1. Dead Americans
2. Vendors getting enriched
3. Some lesser lights getting their macho mojo on.
4. Domestic issues ignored in the name of "national security"
5. Rampant paranoia about an enemy no one seems to know.

Get real. WE started the Iraq mess. It's an albatross we will all be paying for for years. The links between 9/11 and Iraq are non-exsistent. When are you Bush partisans ever going to figure that out?


WX7B

[AG3Y]

Can you believe that Dan Rather said ( not sure if this is a direct quote, but close enough ) "if the papers prove to be forgeries, I want to be the first to report that ! " What GALL !

[n3ijw]

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/787/DanRatherMemo.jpg

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (n3ijw @ Sep. 16 2004,11:53)]http://img21.exs.cx/img21/787/DanRatherMemo.jpg
Hey! Another memo typed on those 1972 typewriters! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (AG3Y @ Sep. 16 2004,12:48)]...tell me, what would be a SENSIBLE murder ?
I could answer that.

As KoKo used to sing:

"I've got a little list; they never would be missed..."

To all those folks who believe Kerry will be the 'saviour of the United States image, reputation, and bring 'peace, love, and the Age of Aquarius' upon the land. I give you..


"Kerry on, my wayward son!"
"There'll be peace when you are done!"
"Lay your weary head to rest.."
"Don't you cry no more!"

Thankfully, the REAL WORLD knows the difference and here, in the United States, come Election day..

They will speak clearly and George Bush will have another 4 years to continue the successful changes that have already been accomplished.

THEN we can all settle in and await the opening of the 'GREAT HILLARY RUN OF OH-EIGHT!'

A situation comedy filled with angst, tears, and a great deal of humor as the main character strives diligently to convince the American people that SHE is the 'chosen one'.

The humor will be manifest as she tries to obscure her past... obsfuscate her true beliefs... while engaging in one of most audacious attempts at sleight-of-hand ever witnessed.

You'll laugh as she tries again.. and again.. to promote obviously failed programs and consistently gets rebuffed. You'll smile compassionately as you see her plucky nature as she faces insurmountable odds YET carries on the personal belief that she CAN win - in spite of all rational, logical, evidence to the contrary.

Even thought you KNOW she will lose, you'll enjoy watching her whirl, twirl, and spin as she attempts to rewrite history, realign peoples' thinking, and change the orientation of the landscape.

Enjoy the hi-jinks as she tries to make her husband 'invisible' to the outside world while letting him carouse and frolic.

She'll bake cookies AND she'll cook up schemes! She's a 21st Century Modern Woman! Hear her roar!

'The Great Hillary Run Of Oh Eight!" Scheduled for release in December 2004.

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (K3FT @ Sep. 16 2004,12:33)]To all those folks who believe Kerry will be the 'saviour of the United States image, reputation, and bring 'peace, love, and the Age of Aquarius' upon the land. I give you..


"Kerry on, my wayward son!"
"There'll be peace when you are done!"
"Lay your weary head to rest.."
"Don't you cry no more!"

Thankfully, the REAL WORLD knows the difference and here, in the United States, come Election day..

They will speak clearly and George Bush will have another 4 years to continue the successful changes that have already been accomplished.

THEN we can all settle in and await the opening of the 'GREAT HILLARY RUN OF OH-EIGHT!' #

A situation comedy filled with angst, tears, and a great deal of humor as the main character strives diligently to convince the American people that SHE is the 'chosen one'. #

The humor will be manifest as she tries to obscure her past... obsfuscate her true beliefs... while engaging in one of most audacious attempts at sleight-of-hand ever witnessed.

You'll laugh as she tries again.. and again.. to promote obviously failed programs and consistently gets rebuffed. You'll smile compassionately as you see her plucky nature as she faces insurmountable odds YET carries on the personal belief that she CAN win - in spite of all rational, logical, evidence to the contrary.

Even thought you KNOW she will lose, you'll enjoy watching her whirl, twirl, and spin as she attempts to rewrite history, realign peoples' thinking, and change the orientation of the landscape.

Enjoy the hi-jinks as she tries to make her husband 'invisible' to the outside world while letting him carouse and frolic.

She'll bake cookies AND she'll cook up schemes! #She's a 21st Century Modern Woman! #Hear her roar!

'The Great Hillary Run Of Oh Eight!" #Scheduled for release in December 2004.
Paranoia, will destroy ya, Chuck...

Nobody's talking about Senator Clinton except you!

What is it about ex-Republican women that get you in a such a whirl? Heinz-Kerry, and Rodham-Clinton.

Relax... Your boy (Bush) hasn't even lost yet, and oh yes, he will...Why be paranoid about HRC?

WX7B

[WA5KRP]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 16 2004,15:58)]Why be paranoid about HRC?
Exactly!


Outside of New York, she couldn't get elected dog catcher.




WA5KRP
Texas

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Sep. 16 2004,14:43)]Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Sep. 16 2004,15:58)]Why be paranoid about HRC?
Exactly!


Outside of New York, she couldn't get elected dog catcher.




WA5KRP
Texas
Some folks among the GOP (and I am not one of them) think that the Dems are setting Kerry up to fail in order to set up Hillary.

I doubt that Kerry would go along with that, myself.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[k6pme]

I happen to subscribe to that theory. NOTHING the Clintons tried would surprise me. But I made myself a promise to stay out of the political "discussions".

(Besides, I'm having too much fun watching the rest of you)

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K6UEY]

I am a believer in the "Great Hill Run of 08".I think that is the whole idea of the DNC putting up Kerry as the candidate. They surely did not want to waste a good electable one ,they don't have that many,on the other hand it had to look good,that's why Kerry is not in on the joke.He was a prime candidate,except for those who follow the Socialist voting in the Senate ,no one had heard of him,so he is expendable. Just think about ,what it would do to the party if an incumbent was ask to step down, so Hill could run ? The DNC may not be an organized political party but they know better than to try that,next best, put up a loser, and make the fight look good. In fact with GW as the incumbent,they will have an excuse to drag out all the trash they can muster for the previous 8 years to try to push Hill through the whitehouse doors. How would one Socialist group throw out all the policy's of another Socialist group, if they are both with the same party. The American Voters were dumb enough to elect Clinton a second time,but don't count on them being dumb enough to oust one Socialist and vote another one of the same party in . #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif