Echolink and beyond

[ng1p]

First the age old question is Echolink Ham Radio?

Looking at the following story in the Feb 2003 QST it
tries to answer that question.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.arrl.org/qst/2003/02/VoIP.pdf

It all boils down to how you define Ham Radio. With
that in mind you would have to ask yourself are the
following Ham Radio:

Ham operator? morse code key? antenna? TNC? computer?
microphone? speaker? transceiver? Echolink?

Ham Radio is the act of communicating by using a
combination of the above to produce an RF signal as
governed by Law (The FCC part 97 in the U.S).

Clearly Echolink (VoiP Systems) are being used as a
direct part of this communications process to produce
RF signals as governed by Law.


To take this to the next level I think Ed Mitchell,
KF7VY, publisher, Ham Radio Online said it best in his
Opinion: (Amateur Radio Has Lost Its Uniqueness)
http://www.hamradio-online.com/1999/mar/unique.html

Ed, KF7VY, states in part the following:

-------------------------------------------------------------


"We Must Redefine Ourselves Amateur Radio needs to
bring itself in line with the contemporary world. We
must not define Amateur Radio of the 21st century in
terms of what used to make us unique. Instead, we need
to re-invigorate our service with innovation in
technology and operations – and make ourselves
relevant in a world awash in communications. There are
many innovative communications technologies – many
invented by hams – but their use is not widely adopted
within the amateur service. We stubbornly refuse to
acknowledge that today there are better ways to
accomplish traditional tasks.

Instead of settling for the status quo, stretch
yourself!

Be creative in applying innovative solutions to
today’s problems. Set yourself high goals and strive
to meet them. Instead of settling for 40 messages
during your next ARES drill, set a goal of 1,000 – and
see what creative solutions your team develops to meet
the challenge. Look for ways to improve productivity,
efficiency and reliability. Don’t settle for the
status quo – constantly look for and implement ways to
improve your procedures. Introduce new technology.
Experiment with how image communications, or wireless
data or even a new invention – can improve your
services and skills. When was the last time you tried
a new operating mode or technology? When was the last
time you varied your procedures? What steps have you
taken to improve the reliability of your public
service communications team? Amateur experimentation
is alive and well, contrary to widespread rumors.
There are many research projects underway right now. I
am aware of projects in areas like high speed digital
communications including data networks, digital voice
and digital television, high-speed computer generated
CW for meteor scatter, satellite communications, and
extraordinary weak signal work being done by hams in
the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. We
forget that it is only within the past few years that
Amateur Radio enthusiasts invented AX.25, CLOVER,
PSK31, "packet cluster" applications, the Automatic
Packet Reporting System and "micro-satellites" – each
of which has migrated to commercial applications. We
Must Obsolete Ourselves and Recreate Our Uniqueness

Our uniqueness has been reduced to a commodity
available to everyone. If we do not focus our service
on attributes that meaningfully distinguish us from
the rest of the crowd, then we may not remain viable.
We must dispense with dated traditions and regulations
(see footnote[4]) and innovate with new procedures and
techniques. If we do not, then we are failing to serve
the public and the public will demand our spectrum
allocations for other uses. Rather than cling to old
traditions, we must "obsolete" ourselves and recognize
that our little world cannot remain unchanged in the
21st century. Or, we can let the rest of the world
make us obsolete (our traditions will no longer matter
if Amateur Radio no longer exists). We must embrace
dynamic change, not retreat and hide behind our pride
of past accomplishments. Each of us can contribute by
trying something new and adopting change and
innovations in our everyday Amateur operations.
National Amateur Radio organizations must embrace
change and adopt forward-looking policies and visions
for the 21st century. National leadership must be
truly committed and supportive of re-aligning Amateur
Radio to the realities of the 21st century. Summary
When the market tells us we are no longer important,
we make excuses about poor sunspots causing a lack of
interest and then blame the Internet and cellular
phones. But the problem is us – we are steadfastly
unchanging in a world that rockets by. Its time to
steer the conversation back to "our customer" – the
general public – and ensure that everything we do is
geared towards serving the public with a robust,
modern and efficient Amateur Radio Service. If we do
not focus on the public’s requirements for an Amateur
Radio Service, we will be obsolete in a world of
commodity communications, available to all. It is up
to you to accept and embrace change. You can take a
small step towards keeping Amateur Radio relevant by
embracing a new communications technology, inventing a
new application for existing technology, or enhancing
your operating procedures. Move yourself from the
trailing edge to the leading edge - join TAPR, AMSAT,
AMRAD, or the SETI League. Re-invent yourself. And
help re-invent Amateur Radio for the 21st century.
Make Amateur Radio a source of creativity, innovation
and most of all – make Amateur Radio unique!"

------------------------------------------------------


When I first got interested in Ham Radio back in the
1970s it was the uniqueness of the hobby that started
the spark for me. Ed's comments from above go along
way.

ILRP was created by David Cameron, VE7LTD in November
1997 and in early 2002 Jonathan Taylor, K1RFD
developed Echolink. This type of creativity and
innovation are steps towards keeping Amateur Radio
relevant, alive and unique by embracing new
communication technology.

73 Bill, NG1P

[n0jwa]

Echolink is a part of ham radio!!!!! Many old time hams [no offense] who now currently live in retirement settlements in the south are not allowed to have any antennas at all. This is their salvation. I have personnaly talked to some of them and they say that if it was not for echolink they would not be able to talk to any one anywhere. So is echolink ham radio YES it is for those of us who can not have HF or reach out an touch some one.

[N0FPE]

while I will agree Echolink and ILRP are PART of hamradio they are NOT Ham radio in total. If you use echolink without ever having your signal or "Chat" use rf then how is it different than a chat room on any online service?? And they are not ham radio! Now since ILRP does use RF as part of its transmission means it is radio!
And if you say that you live someplace that you cant get on HF then you are not trying very hard!! Heck folks get on HF using all kinds of strange antennas and means. Try harder!!! work at it! Oh I forget sometime..lots of folks dont want to work at it. They want free and easy.
SO dont tell us out here in hamland (sounds corny huh)
that Echolink is radio..its not. It is a nice toy but no more than a chat room style operation when there is no RF involved.

IMHO # Dan/NØFPE

Oh and yes I have echolink and a full HF/VHF/UHF station.

--- http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[k4vo]

Echolink is #a part of Ham Radio in my shack. I use my Echolink to 2 meter simplex link daily.
You are encouraged to connect and say hello.
73 de Mark K4VO #Birmingham, AL # Node #70714

[k3pcs]

As my non ham wife observed:- the difference between IRLP and Echolink is in the length of wire connecting the microphone and earphones to the transmitter.

[n3pzz]

I talk every day to friends in Germany,either RF or ISP,
I don't lay awake fretting over it. Don't we have better things to do?
73 de dave n3pzz

[ad5qb]

I also use Echolink occasionally for a change of pace, think it's fun and offers a way for those who cannot otherwise get on the air to participate. #I agree with Dan N0FPE that it is a part of ham radio, not ham radio in total. #However, I don't think that ANY one mode can be said to be ham radio in total, the complete ham radio experience is the sum of it's parts, and people will enjoy the aspects of the hobby that most appeal to them.

And hello to Mark K4VO, we had an enjoyable PSK-31 QSO back in March.

[W5HTW]

Perhaps in redefining Amateur Radio, we could change thename to "Amateur Communications." That would satisfy all those who say "it ain't radio", as we would no longer be called 'radio' anyway. It would also satisfy all those who prefer internet to radio, as they would indeed be 'communicating.'

It may be the name of the Service (a "service" is something the FCC regulates) should more aptly reflect what we are, rather than what we were.

Ed

[WD8OQX]

Quote[/b] (k3pcs @ Aug. 29 2004,17:09)]As my non ham wife observed:- the difference between IRLP and Echolink is in the length of wire connecting the microphone and earphones to the transmitter.
Isn't this pretty much the differences between what some perceive as ham radio & what echolink & such is?

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[k1lwi]

yes echolink and irlp is part of ham radio. i been lic 44 years echolink and irlp is great wendell k1lwi 73http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Let's see...what's next? #An autopatch conversation to another ham in Lower Slobovia to count as a valid contact for a WAC? #Or, a crossband FRS/2M contact to count as a "third party" contact for grid square hunting? #People, let's get real here. #Ham RADIO should be Ham RADIO...not Ham ISPs or Ham Autopatch or Ham IRLP!?!?In this ham of over 25 years continious licensing's opinion, which is not worth much, ham radio is well on the way to be legislated OUT of existence by the US Congress. #Our rules specificially say that we are to be a "trained group of electronics experts" to help our country in times of crisis and/or emergency. #I would be willing to bet money that the majority of our "new breed" of hams can't tell the difference between one end of a diode and the other...nor what they do...or a battery, for that matter. #For THOSE folks...PLEASE do the ARS a favor, and go BACK to CB, FRS and GMRS, before you ruin the once great hobby for the rest of us. #If YOU don't want to learn electronics, or code or correct operating procedures, that is your business...just DON'T try to force puke your laziness down the throats of those of us who CARE about this hobby...yet more than that, OUR "Amateur Radio SERVICE". #I close with this: #I am writing to people who don't care. #All you want is to work "skip" (whoever the heck HE is), and have something for nothing. #My Amateur Radio LICENSE used to be a point of great pride...it is not such any more. #Those of you who want priviledges and operating frequencies GIVEN to you are (have) killed our hobby. #Wait a few years...this prophecy will come to pass. #How will you, who said nothing and stood up for nothing, feel THEN...when you have NOTHING?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Is Echolink ham radio? #I would say yes it is. #Most of the time I connect to remote repeaters to use Echolink. #I am still working on getting my HF privileges (learning the code). #It is fun to take a break from studying General theory and listening to the code and jump out and hook to a repeater in the UK, in New Zealand, or on the U.S. East coast. #As one gentleman in the UK put it quite accurately who has talked on Echolink since its creation. #It is still one radio amateur talking to another we understand the common language of the hobby. #Locally I am on a 2 meter net that meets every night. #Eventually I want to have an HF antenna system, but, my C&CRs in my neighborhood may limit that possibility unless I put an antenna in the attic.

Echolink lets me enjoy the hobby (remotely that is).

Gary
KC9GGV
Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA

[WL7LZ]

Quote[/b] (k0qi @ Aug. 29 2004,19:18)]Let's see...what's next? An autopatch conversation to another ham in Lower Slobovia to count as a valid contact for a WAC? Or, a crossband FRS/2M contact to count as a "third party" contact for grid square hunting? People, let's get real here. Ham RADIO should be Ham RADIO...not Ham ISPs or Ham Autopatch or Ham IRLP!?!?In this ham of over 25 years continious licensing's opinion, which is not worth much, ham radio is well on the way to be legislated OUT of existence by the US Congress. Our rules specificially say that we are to be a "trained group of electronics experts" to help our country in times of crisis and/or emergency. I would be willing to bet money that the majority of our "new breed" of hams can't tell the difference between one end of a diode and the other...nor what they do...or a battery, for that matter. For THOSE folks...PLEASE do the ARS a favor, and go BACK to CB, FRS and GMRS, before you ruin the once great hobby for the rest of us. If YOU don't want to learn electronics, or code or correct operating procedures, that is your business...just DON'T try to force puke your laziness down the throats of those of us who CARE about this hobby...yet more than that, OUR "Amateur Radio SERVICE". I close with this: I am writing to people who don't care. All you want is to work "skip" (whoever the heck HE is), and have something for nothing. My Amateur Radio LICENSE used to be a point of great pride...it is not such any more. Those of you who want priviledges and operating frequencies GIVEN to you are (have) killed our hobby. Wait a few years...this prophecy will come to pass. How will you, who said nothing and stood up for nothing, feel THEN...when you have NOTHING?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
<span style='color:blue'><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:OCR A EXTENDED'>I agree with IRLP and ECHOLINK, BUT...

I do not agree they should be used to count towards anything , same as you cant QSL a /r contact. Same should hold true with IRLP and ECHOLINK.

I DO AGREE when it comes to expanding amatuer radio. I enjoy being able to bring up nodes overseas and always having the "WINDOW" open (not having to worry about band conditions) to be able to talk to friends in case the HF bands are down in that part of the world.

So its a 50/50 I suppose. My .02 worth.

Mark
WL7LZ</span></span></span>
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[na4it]

If it's not amateur radio, then answer this:

Why does EVERY radio that is linked to Echolink have to ID every 10 minutes according to FCC rules?

If it isn't ham radio, then the FCC has nothing to worry about.

Anyone want to set a link up and not make it legal...just to prove the theory??? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WL7LZ]

Quote[/b] (k1lwi @ Aug. 29 2004,18:30)]yes echolink and irlp is part of ham radio. i been lic 44 years echolink and irlp is great wendell k1lwi 73http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
<span style='color:blue'><span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:OCR A EXTENDED'>Agreed! Thank you.

Mark
WL7LZ</span></span></span>
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[KH2D]

EchoLink is not ham radio. It's got a RELAY in the middle, it's not a ham talking to another ham.

AMSAT isn't ham radio, it's got a RELAY in the middle, it's not a ham talking to another ham.

REPEATERS aren't ham radio, they have a RELAY in the middle, they are not a ham talking to another ham.

PACKET RADIO isn't ham radio, it's got a RELAY in the middle, it's not a ham talking to another ham.

Real ham radio is two old fat guys in their own basement, using their own wire antenna outside in the tree, with an open wire feedline and a D-104 microphone with RFI that burns their lips. Now THAT's ham radio!!!


Anybody know what's wrong with these fonts??? I can't figure this board out since Fred changed it.


73, Jim KH2D

[w5bak]

Why does it matter?

[KH2D]

I do not agree they should be used to count towards anything , same as you cant QSL a /r contact. Same should hold true with IRLP and ECHOLINK.

Me too. But I'll go one step further. I don't think anything should count for anything.<p align="center">I think people should realize that ham radio is about <p align="center">COMMUNICATIONS<p align="center">not about collecting post cards.

EchoLink should only count for having a nice conversation with somebody you enjoy talking to. IRLP should to. So should HF. No post cards. Post cards suck. Post cards are for sissys. Only weird people collect post cards. Call me on EchoLink. I promised I'll never send you a post card in a million years. Never never never. No way. Out of the question. No post card 4 U on EchoLink.

73, Jim KH2D
EchoLink Node Number NOQSL4U


P.S. Fred, you really need to fix this HTML stuff. This forum looks like a coloring class for second graders. Are we trying to have an intelligent conversation here, or are we trying to impress each other with our childish use of FONT tags?

Anybody want to trade a RED crayon for a BLUE one? I have some extra GREEN ones too.

[al2n]

There are some Echolink nodes that are hooked to repeaters. So yes, there is RF involved (sometimes).

IRLP and Echolink are fun to use and I consider them part of ham radio. They will never replace the fun of RF communication, but they are tools that are there for use when regular rf communications are not possible for whatever reason.

Echolink is NOT an internet chat room. It does not have the profanity, porn advertisments, or 13 year old boys hitting on anyone that has a username that could be taken as female that you find in internet chat rooms. Just stop by some of the chat rooms on Yahoo or MSN sometime and compare what you see there to Echolink.

Echolink/IRLP and other methods of connecting POINT 'A' to POINT 'B' are NOT ham radio.

They are simply a METHOD to pass communications of some type from one point to another WITHOUT radio.

Doesn't matter if you connect TO a radio down the line or not. The MODE of getting there is what you speak of, not the eventual usage.

ECHOLINK and IRLP are no different that IRC, 'chat rooms' or other non-RF methods of communications.

Ham radio involves some kind of RF to RF link.

When you CONNECT ECHOLINK/IRLP to a transmitter and that transmitter uses RF to reach another station and communications occurs OVER THE AIR, on the ham bands, using ham callsigns, and in accordace with rules, THAT is ham radio.


ECHOLINK/IRLP are great TOOLS for furthering the UNIQE nature of ham radio -- that is....

**(See FCC Part 97.1 'definition' for the answer)**


As for the question of IRLP/ECHOLINK being 'ham radio' as it relates to validity for DX QSL's, contests, awards, and the like. ABSOLUTELY NOT. There is no pride of accomplishment in that and it negates ANY value of competition or achievement.

Using someone else's gear which will be in a decent location with (probably) better hardware while you are NOT there and hten claiming SOME type of accomplishment is the same as going to a 'salted' game preserve and bagging a trophy animal.

Yes, you got the prize.. but you didn't earn it. You didn't gain it by the dint of your OWN efforts, skills, and work.

So it's a prize.. but it is valueless other than bragging amongst others of the same stripe.

So use ECHOLINK/IRLP to further Part 97.1 activities.

But not for other things outside that.

73
k3FT

[k3pd]

Chuck, You are correct that Echo Link is not part of Ham Radio according to Part 97.

However Echolink is as much a part of the hobby today as other Ham activities that to not incorporate RF.

Think of the times you sat down and ate a breakfast when hams gathered, or when you attended a meeting when hams gathered, was this not part of Ham Radio? EchoLink is just another gathering place for Hams.

On the other hand IRLP does incorporate the RF link, so it would be defined in Part 97.

73's Pete http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[M3CET]

I'm a 15 year old Ham, living here in Northampton England and Echolink is the only access to Ham Radio I have from my Home QTH. If it wasn't for Echolink I would probably had dropped Ham Radio by now. Echolink in my opinion is a fantastic system and has allowed me to make friends worldwide. It is a step towards pushing Amateur Radio into the future, but it is only one small part of Amateur Radio, and for some it's great and for others it isn't. So if VoIP isn't something you enjoy, don't stop others who do enjoy it, from enjoying it.
73 de Mike
M3CET
Northampton England UK - IO92NG
Echolink Node - 96317

[N9CJT]

I have two thoughts to add:

1) #Emergency Communications: #Echolink and IRLP assist in passing emergency traffic for those we serve just as surely as autopatch and repeater use. #Let us not forget, however, that neighbors and served agencies have just as much need, if not more, when the wires are down and the power is out. #Let us not forget to be prepared for that, too.

2) #Adaptation to New Technologies: #For those of you who want to redefine the ARS, there is a parallel which you may wish to consider. #Prior to 1965, osteopaths were a separate and distinct health profession which held great respect in this country and at one time operated a large minority of hospitals. #In 1965, the profession voted to incorporate all the wonderful advances in the medical profession into its own training and practice, and in fact discontinued teaching osteopathic manipulation in its own schools (a mistake which persisted until 1990), coming under the umbrella of the medical profession. #The result? #The osteopathic profession all but disappeared, osteopaths trained between 1965 and 1990 practice medicine (eg. drugs and surgery), and another profession (chiropractic) which did work similar to osteopathy has so quickly become the largest and fastest growing "non-medical" profession in the world that it is now defined within mainstream health care.

As we consider redefining our hobby, let's not lose sight of those services we provide which are unique to the hobby. #Otherwise, as we attempt to be everything to everyone and have ALL the toys, we may end up being indistinguishable from, and useless to, the public which we claim to serve.

[WS2L]

I use Echolink daily in order to keep in touch with old friends who have moved around the country and are no longer on HF. If not for Echolink I would have either lost contact or had to rely on email to keep in touch with many friends who for whatever reason are no longer active on the HF bands. Now we are able to talk via a local repeater or simplex frequency or just connect to each other, either way I think it is a great advancement in interfacing Ham Radio and the Internet.

[KD5HIY]

I believe it is part of ham radio. Somewhere out there you are connected to radio hardware that transmits your voice.

Chris

PD and the rest...

Please, within 97.1 (which is the foundational definiation for amateur radio) please locate the word 'HOBBY' for me, OK? (I'll save you the trouble, it's not there.)

ALSO.. Please note.. I DID NOT say that ECHOLINK/IRLP are NOT valuable and useful FOR ham radio to remain a unique and valuable SERVICE - which is what I was REALLY trying to get to by my reference to FCC Part 97 section 1. <obvoiusly, that was missed. I guess I should have been MORE explicit, perhaps!>

Ham radio has a 'hobby' component that people use for their own enjoyment. THAT is what everyone alludes to when they try to tout the 'hobby' over the service. BUT ham radio is a service.. (See that pesky 97.1 sectoin again!) because what it DOES is provide a SERVICE.

*I AM NOT attackingthose who think it is a hobby!! I just want people to understand AND use the proper terms when referring to ham radio**

Calling it a hobby defines it for people who don't know what it is. It 'cheapens' ham radio and puts it on the same level (for the uninitated) as 'collecting cards, stamps, baseball cards, and rocks'.

Ham radio is a SERVICE (see that pesky 97.1 again folks!). I don't think you would call the Fire Service a 'fire hobby' would you? They have volunteers who are not paid just as ham radio has volunteers (all of us) who aren't paid. So, don't call ham radio a 'hobby' unless you are willing to call ALL the other non-paid Services out there 'hobbys' as well.



I will restate what I said..

ECHOLINK/IRLP are USEFUL.... VALUEABLE.. and have PURPOSE **WITHIN** ham radio as TOOL.. an INSTRUMENT.. a MEANS.. of ham radio doing what it does best.

For bulk traffic handling, Agency support, helping hams who cannot get on HF/VHF stay in contact IT IS EXCELLENT! No disagreement.

So please.. I'm NOT demeaning it, but rather it is important to know that it is a tool ONLY.

Ham radio was, is, and always shall be about providing a UNIQUE service to the Country, Community, and hte public by means of assistance via the RF spectrum.

Doesn't matter if it's a 2000 mile connection to some HT-equipped ham in the woods via the Internet.. or using the dial upto call some buddy's rig across the street.

IF it uses and RF to RF link.. andit uses the frequecies and licenes of ham radio.. IT'S ham radio.

If it's just atool.. a link.. it's NOT ham radio.

It's a tool.. part of the things we use to do HAM RADIO and perform that service we provide.

That's all I am saying.

I know. some with argue the 'service' vs 'hobby. That's fine. You argue a losing point. Some will say ECHOLINK/IRLP is ham radio .Fine. you fail to grasp the points being made. That's fine.

And no, I'm not a Luddite. I appreciate, use, and fully believe that non-RF methods of getting traffic and information handled for served Agencies and the Public is IMPORTANT and if we can use our spectrum and tools to do so.. EXCELLENT! (See that pesky 97.1 again)

That's it. I'm done.

Believe as you will. Say what you shall.

73
K3FT

Again.. understand I agree. IF IT USES AND RF to RF Link.. somewhre inthe chain..IT IS HAM RADIO!!

[N2ACX]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Here's my 2 cents worth,
Included in my small ham shack is echolink.I have found it to be a nice addition to many for reasons ascribed in previous posts including those in, locations preventing the use of outside antennas, nursing homes, and others. It gives those people a chance to be involved in the ham radio plus much more as has already been posted.
Here's a short comment
On the morning of august 29th 2004 I communicated with another ham on one of the 70cm SIMPLEX frequencies which we've used for a long time. As may already know the propagation for the week is going to be strong north south for the week.
I was using my T8 handheld to a homemade 4 ele beam,running into a small amplifier at 30 watts, pointed west, in the attic. after a few minutes a Station ID came up from southern New Jersey a town about 60 miles away. then a guy in Niagara Falls came in to say hello and after about two rounds said he was on Echolink.So I went on Echolink and found it using the call.
I dropped power to about .5watt and was still on the input of this "Link" and heard potentially worldwide.
First, there are about 22, 70cm and 26, VHF simplex frequencies, right?
If one looks there are many "links" using simplex.
What happens next, when ducting isn't the only reason for being heard on echolink,or if a few use those frequencies locally to link up?
It would appear to me that in a year or so there may not be any simplex frequencies left without being on a "Link" at the rate echolink is growing. And I prefer Simplex, to repeaters, and only use them if needed.
Seems that when you listen on the U/V bands, the Repeater's, are mostly silent, I haven't heard activity on a few in my area for the last couple three years, with a couple exceptions. Simplex frequencies are seeing increasing activity which indicates that we seem to be on a collision course between amateur radio VoIp and RF communication.
Iam for a fine balance for all modes including echolink that technology has to offer.
I hope the ARRL doesn't get involved with this one, G' help us.
As someone else has said, "What say you?"
73 Gary N2ACX

[KJ0L]

N0FPE #your mind is as closed as a trap...shut and locked!

100000000000000's of people, and kids, and old hams are turning to the Internet now in droves.. hand over fist, and #cant wait to shell out 100's of bucks a month for cable and Internet... ((( THESE PEOPLE NEVER WILL EVER FIND HAM RADIO BECAUSE THAT NITCH IS FILLED BY THE EMENSE INTERNET! )))

10000000000000000 of people are shelling out for cell phones and wireless networks every day! (((( THESE PEOPLE WILL NEVER SEE THE BENIFITS OF HAM RADIO BECUASE THESE DEVICES FILL THERE COMMUNICATIONS NEEDS THROUGHLY)))))

100000000000000000000 of people are leaving our hobby and only a few chances in a trillion that they will ever even try a ham radio at any level...

THEY THINK>>>>>Why would they need ham radio for anything...They have computers and Internet and cell phones..and #who needs ham radio.... In there closed as a trap mind sets #sound familiar>>http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif<<

My best friend in high school and I were both hams he moved away was on the Internet he said... why do i need radio blah blah blah I have chat rooms blah...
I said try echolink its free over the internet and you can talk just to hams over repeaters and there computers... (((((((( JUST HAMS )))))))))))

I pointed out echo link to him a cheap easy way for him to get on line and connect to (((((((((my ham radio repeater)))))))))) that has echo link
(((((((( WAA LAAA ))))))))) after 5 Min's on echo link he was back in business with a new excitement inspired!!! He now has a tribander and is back online bigger than ever with hf/packet/yes echolink!!!

ECHO LINK WILL DO THAT AND IS DOING THAT TO OLD HAMS WHO THOUGHT RADIO WAS DEAD AND ONLY HAVE BEEN ONLINE!! HAMS ARE USING ECHOLINK TO FIND OLD BUDDIES... and conatcting other buddies that are lost...... #

(((((((( I USE ECHOLINK ON REPEATERS ONLY )))))))))
BUT WITH OTHER HAMS ON OTHER REPEATERS USING ECHOLINK AS A WAY TO CONNECT US TO EACH OTHER!!!!!!

ECHOLINK...is inspiring the computer generation back into ham radio and vaulting our hobby as not in the dark age... and into the light... age...

We can all scream public service public service rah rah rahhh
But the public isn't listening they are to busy on line and in those chat rooms you keep comparing echo link too..

Echo link is more like radio and less like chat rooms then you will ever admit or

OFF SOAP BOXXX

One more thing ECHO LINK IS KEEPING OLD TIMERS
in touch with us some day you will be in a nursing home someday you wont have antenna some day you will be on a voip to a radio and then you (((( SAUL )))) will see the light here HAM BRO!


Regards
Joe
KJØL
ECHOLINK repeater node
# 12132
Des Moines, Iowa
Since January 2002

--
Evil only survives when Good Men step back and do nothing! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[n0doz]

Lot of short-sighted viewpoints. Doesn't matter if Echolink or IRLP "count" for anything... they're for actually TALKING to other people, not exchanging grid squares, for heaven's sake. It also doesn't matter if it's 100% radio, either. People that may not be able to talk to each other are able to, and that's what counts.
You know, some of the newer systems in public safety radio are going to VoIP connections, which were proven to be feasible partly by IRLP and Echolink, so instead of bashing these things, you should applaud them for (once again) showing that hams lead the way.

[WM5L]

Quote[/b] (k4vo @ Aug. 29 2004,17:09)]Echolink is a part of Ham Radio in my shack. I use my Echolink to 2 meter simplex link daily.
You are encouraged to connect and say hello.
73 de Mark K4VO Birmingham, AL Node #70714

I think you should look at the rules om. I used to do the same thing untill it was pointed out that using two meters to remote controll ANYTHING is illegal...

[zl1byz]

Quote[/b] (n3pzz @ Aug. 28 2004,18:14)]I talk every day to friends in Germany,either RF or ISP,
I don't lay awake fretting over it. Don't we have better things to do?
73 de dave #n3pzz
I agree with you totaly Dave! Who cares. If you like echo link, fine. Personally I don't, I have used it but it just doesn't spark for me. That misterious ether is just to remote. All I feel is computers chundering there cold little bit streams, just to mechanical. Give me the warm glow of a CW transmitter any day. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But who should care, I don't as long as it's not compulsory http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Oh I guess the stumbling block is you can't do DXCC on echo link http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Who cares Who cares Who cares Gee find something else to rave about.

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (K3FT @ Aug. 30 2004,08:16)]Ham radio is a SERVICE (see that pesky 97.1 again folks!). I don't think you would call the Fire Service a 'fire hobby' would you? They have volunteers who are not paid just as ham radio has volunteers (all of us) who aren't paid. So, don't call ham radio a 'hobby' unless you are willing to call ALL the other non-paid Services out there 'hobbys' as well.
Just like the Citizen's Radio Service. The Family Radio Service. The General Mobile Radio Service. The Maritime Radio Service. The Publice Safety Radio Service. Cellular phone service. Aviation Radio Service.

It is fortunate we hams are not mandated to 'perform a service' for two reasons; The first is that out of perhaps 300,000 active hams, only about 5,000 annually actually perform a service. The rest of them would be disbarred. De-licensed! Banned in Boston. ARRL figures published last year pointed out that only about 1700 hams in the US actually participate annually in emergency service, (tornados, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, etc.) but I'd assume quite a bit more participate in things like bike races, marathons, and the like, which also are a 'service.'

The second is darned few of us would know HOW to perform a service, and even fewer are a 'pool of trained electronics technicians and radio operators.'

But it's an old debate. We are indeed a service, just like those others I mentioned above, for that is what the FCC calls us - the Amateur Radio Service. The fact that probably 98 percent of us are only into it as a hobby has nothing to do with the title of our service.

Comparing us to paid or volunteer fire personnel, or medical or police personnel, is a real stretch! It is one, though, that a lot of hams make in evaluating their importance to life on the planet.


Ed

[N0WE]

Why do people have such a hard time with this question? It's simple. If it requires the internet to operate then it is not ham radio. Remember the motto "When all else fails" I don't think the internet would fit this category.

[k4uug]

Quote[/b] (N0FPE @ Aug. 29 2004,20:03)]while I will agree Echolink and ILRP are PART of hamradio they are NOT Ham radio in total.
No certian mode or certain amateur radio tool is Amateur radio in total.but however all of it, is amateur radio in total something for everyone almost that is untill the code requirement is dropped .The most challenging problem in this hobby is our attitude towards newcomers and change and the focus on the mode of CW / HF as the defining characteristic of Amateur Radio. The attitude "If you do not operate the mode CW/HF, or if you are not proficient with the CW mode, then you are not a real ham radio operator".This is our most challenging problem our attitude towards change.I believe the mode attitude is the Achilles Heel of the Amateur Radio Hobby.Changing our attitude towards change and new comers is a key part of growing Amateur radio in the future.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k4uug]

Quote[/b] (zl1byz @ Aug. 30 2004,17:34)]#Personally I don't, I have used it but it just doesn't spark for me. #Give me the warm glow of a CW transmitter any day. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Personally I don't, like CW I have used the mode but I find it a bore yawn!Telegraphy proficiency should no longer be a compulsory licensing requirement for any class of Amateur Radio license.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KH2D]

Personally I don't, like CW I have used the mode but I find it a bore yawn! Telegraphy proficiency should no longer be a compulsory licensing requirement for any class of Amateur Radio license.

Personally, I don't like ugly women or mushrooms in my fried rice. But what's ugly women, mushrooms, or Morse code, have to do with the discussion we're having about EchoLink? Is your sewing machine broken and you wound up in the wrong THREAD?


73,

Jim
KH2D

[KG4OOA]

Ham Radio -- NO WAY!

Why don't you just get 100 phone numbers, one from each DXCC entity. Grab your cell phone (it uses RF). spend maybe 100 minutes calling them.Presto! DXCC! Oh yeah, email confirmations.

If you call that ham radio I feel sorry for you and your laziness!

[VE8MD]

I agree with most of the comments posted above. I have had many "rag chews" with older members in our hobby who are antenna restricted due to their living conditions, thus echolink and irlp. I for one think it's great! I enjoy talking with these guys and learning from them, afterall isn't that part of the facinating part of the hobby. I recenty had a fellow ham who is 92 years young, as he says, say to me at 40 "How can we bridge the gap between the older hams and the younger ones?" This works just great, echolink irlp. For those who think it's not part of hamradio, think of it this way. It's a new facet of the hobby just as digital mode and other areas are. Don't look at as a threat, it's not.

73's
Mike VE8MD http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KH2D]

Presto! DXCC!




DXCC - Now that's HAM RADIO!


First you werk 100 countries and have an interesting QSO with each:


Somebody says "UR 59" 100 times.


You say "UR ALSO 59" 100 times.


Then you collect 100 post cards.


Then you send them with some money to a radio club.


Then they send you a piece of paper.


Then you repeat the above some more.


Then the radio club sends you stickers that look like they came from a Cracker Jack box.


Never mind this EchoLink stuff, I'm convinced!


Talking to your friends is for sissys!


Let's all collect post cards and Cracker Jack Stickers!


DUDE!! Now that's HAM RADIO!.


73, Jim KH2D

[kb7qdi]

Hello everyone,

I think it's fair to say from this thread that VoIP services like EchoLink and IRLP have their valid pros and cons from both sides.

I have always taken the view that these services are an excellent enhancement to the hobby.

I personally love EchoLink. It's a great method to talk to other hams when the bands are dead, noone is on the repeater and I am in the mood to chat.

Can you use EchoLink in a true emergency? Only when the internet stays up, which is known to fail. However, it can be used as a supplemental mode of communications outside the disaster area.

For example, when the bands just don't allow message traffic from one place to another via HF, VoIP can be used to bridge the gap, and get that message to its destination in a more timely fashion.

Is it ham radio? Probably not in the sense of direct RF connectivity goes. But then you can say the same thing about packet BBS's, beacons (it's like cheating) and APRS.

It is not unreasonable to expect that the world of communications is going to change in the next 5 to 10 years. For $20 a month I can call anyone in the country for as long as I want over VoIP and a telephone. For $40 a month I can use a cell phone. Why would I have to use HF to relay a message in another state when all I will have to do is use my 2 meter repeater and ask someone in the unaffected area to call my wife for me, and it doesn't cost them a dime.

And when HF no longer becomes necessary to relay emergency traffic, then where will our hobby be at? Don't think someone won't pay good money to snatch up our precious rag-chewing bandwidth right in front of our eyes.

My advice - appreciate the work your fellow hams are putting towards the hobby, enjoy each facet this excellent hobby has to offer, and unite as amateurs to make sure we have a hobby to enjoy now, and can enjoy later.

Dean KB7QDI
Mukwonago, Wisconsin

[kd5lwu]

Yes Echolink is ham radio! Is a computer that has a receiver and transmitter board installed ham radio? of course it is just as a new transceiver that has transisters, resisters and microchips in it is ham radio. I have been using VOip since before Echolink on a computer and connected to my repeater. I NEVER use the keyboard to communicate, nor do I use a phone line as I have a cable modem (is packet radio not ham because it uses a modem? Of course not). I only use handhelds. It is ham radio when I use my ham call sign regardless of the modality used. Just as it's GMRS when I use WPWL443.

73 Johnny Echolink nose 24336

[AB8RU]

I just read that the 2 way industry just adopted ROIP Radio Over Internet Portocal they are really trying to compete with handheld Cell Phone / Walkie Talkie market I left their names out you know who I mean, they are running ads for that kind of gear.

[AB8RU]

Echolink is also a good thing to learn especially the everchanging market now that 2 way co's are looking to IT people and this is going to be an interesting part on any resume' http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[na4it]

Here's an idea...

A lot of older hams that are in nursing homes would love to be able to get on the air and ragchew again. And a lot of nursing homes frown on having ham radio equipment installed.

But, a lot of them allow computers...

A great project for a ham club would be to find out if any of local nursing homes, assisted living centers, and the like will let you donate a computer to allow access to Echolink. Who knows, they might even give you a port on the highspeed router! And, if you have got a good computer guru (which I'm sure most clubs do) he should be able to take parts from everyone else's junk box and build a decent computer for the task.

And I can tell you from experience...those older souls in the facilities love it when someone does something good for them.

Do something good for ham radio...GIVE a little to someone else... # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (na4it @ Aug. 30 2004,20:54)]Here's an idea...

A lot of older hams that are in nursing homes would love to be able to get on the air and ragchew again. And a lot of nursing homes frown on having ham radio equipment installed.

But, a lot of them allow computers...

A great project for a ham club would be to find out if any of local nursing homes, assisted living centers, and the like will let you donate a computer to allow access to Echolink. Who knows, they might even give you a port on the highspeed router! And, if you have got a good computer guru (which I'm sure most clubs do) he should be able to take parts from everyone else's junk box and build a decent computer for the task.

And I can tell you from experience...those older souls in the facilities love it when someone does something good for them.

Do something good for ham radio...GIVE a little to someone else... # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I agree here, With respect to our elder ham operators ! What knowledge ! Voip can provide for upcoming hams. If VOIP can share that knowledge,who are we to be the judge ? How can you or I be the judge ?

[kn6z]

Quote[/b] (K3FT @ Aug. 30 2004,08:16)]So, don't call ham radio a 'hobby' unless you are willing to call ALL the other non-paid Services out there 'hobbys' as well.
Right. And don't call ducks water fowl unless you are willing to call all birds water fowl.

[K0RGR]

I think the original post was marvelous. We need to look forward to what we must become, not backward all the time to what we have been. Those of us who have the old skills should not forget, and must pass them on to those who are willing. But we must also be eager to learn new ones, and push those who will carry ham radio forward for the next 100 years to continue to grow, to expand, and to create.

[k4uug]

Quote[/b] (KH2D @ Aug. 30 2004,19:36)]Personally I don't, like CW I have used the mode but I find it a bore yawn! Telegraphy proficiency should no longer be a compulsory licensing requirement for any class of Amateur Radio license.

Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-Personally, I don't like ugly women or mushrooms in my fried rice. But what's ugly women, mushrooms, or Morse code, have to do with the discussion we're having about EchoLink? Is your sewing machine broken and you wound up in the wrong THREAD?
KH2D[/b]
my reply was to zl1byz not YOU!
#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Lamda colors # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[k4uug]

Quote[/b] (K3FT @ Aug. 30 2004,11:16)]PD and the rest...

Please, within 97.1 (which is the foundational definiation for amateur radio) please locate the word 'HOBBY' for me, OK? #(I'll save #you the trouble, it's not there.)

ALSO.. Please note.. I DID NOT say that ECHOLINK/IRLP are NOT valuable and useful FOR ham radio to remain a unique and valuable SERVICE - which is what I was REALLY trying to get to by my reference to FCC Part 97 section 1. <obvoiusly, that was missed. I guess I should have been MORE explicit, perhaps!>

Ham radio has a 'hobby' component that people use for their own enjoyment. THAT is what everyone alludes to when they try to tout the 'hobby' over the service. BUT ham radio is a service.. (See that pesky 97.1 sectoin again!) #because what it DOES is provide a SERVICE.

*I AM NOT attackingthose who think it is a hobby!! I just want people to understand #AND use the proper terms when referring to ham radio**

Calling it a hobby #defines it for people who don't know what it is. It 'cheapens' ham radio and puts it on the same level (for the uninitated) as 'collecting cards, stamps, baseball cards, and rocks'.

Ham radio is a SERVICE (see that pesky 97.1 again folks!). I don't think you would call the Fire Service a 'fire hobby' would you? #They have volunteers who are not paid just as ham radio has volunteers (all of us) who aren't paid. #So, don't call ham radio a 'hobby' unless you are willing to call ALL the other non-paid Services out there 'hobbys' as well.



I will restate what I said..

ECHOLINK/IRLP are USEFUL.... VALUEABLE.. and have PURPOSE **WITHIN** ham radio as TOOL.. an INSTRUMENT.. a MEANS.. of ham radio doing what it does best.

For bulk traffic handling, Agency support, helping hams who cannot get on HF/VHF stay in contact IT IS EXCELLENT! # No disagreement.

So please.. I'm NOT demeaning it, but rather it is important to know that it is a tool ONLY.

Ham radio was, is, and always shall be about providing a UNIQUE service to the Country, Community, and hte public by means of assistance via the RF spectrum.

Doesn't matter if it's a 2000 mile connection to some HT-equipped ham in the woods via the Internet.. or using the dial upto call some buddy's rig across the street. #

IF it uses and RF to RF link.. andit uses the frequecies and licenes of ham radio.. IT'S ham radio.

If it's just atool.. a link.. it's NOT ham radio.

It's a tool.. part of the things we use to do HAM RADIO and perform that service we provide.

That's all I am saying.

I know. some with argue the 'service' vs 'hobby. That's fine. You argue a losing point. #Some will say ECHOLINK/IRLP is ham radio .Fine. you fail to grasp the points being made. #That's fine.

And no, I'm not a Luddite. I appreciate, use, and fully believe that non-RF methods of getting traffic and information handled for served Agencies and the Public is IMPORTANT and if we can use our spectrum and tools to do so.. EXCELLENT! (See that pesky 97.1 again)

That's it. I'm done.

Believe as you will. Say what you shall.

73
K3FT

Again.. understand I agree. IF IT USES AND RF to RF Link.. somewhre inthe chain..IT IS HAM RADIO!!
Amateur radio is a service and a hobby and echo link is part of amateur radio no one mode or band should be used to define the amateur radio hobby/service as a whole it is all amateur radio. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[N0WE]

If it "REQUIRES" the internet it is not Ham radio. Now if people choose to use this mode then good for them. This can also be said for cell phones internet chat rooms. I hear people saying they "worked" England using Echolink. Now that just plain wrong!

[k4uug]

Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Aug. 31 2004,08:42)]If it "REQUIRES" the internet it is not Ham radio. Now if people choose to use this mode then good for them. This can also be said for cell phones internet chat rooms. I hear people saying they "worked" England using Echolink. Now that just plain wrong!
No wrong my friend it is in keeping with the mandated objective of contributing to the advancement of the radio art.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[KF4FSE]

I guess what I don't understand is why ths crap needs clarification every other week. #Are older hams that insecure about amateur radio that they must discredit and condemn any new technologies? #Are new hams so lazy and unwilling to learn that they cast off all the wonderful, proven technologies involved with amateur radio in favor of trendy, Internet-based services? #Seriously, I just do not understand why this has to be brought up over and over and over and over again.

I do not use Echolink. #I don't use it because it's mediocre software at best and as far as I know only works in Windows. #I do not run Windows, so that's another problem. #But anyway. #I don't care who uses it for what. #If you want to use Echolink to talk to your fellow hams, that's fine. #If you want to use it to access distant repeaters or use a friend's simplex link, more power to you. #Who cares if it uses RF? #Hams talking with hams. #Communication. #As others have mentioned in this thread, this is one of the most important facets of our hobby. #The same goes for IRLP, though in most cases it's used to link repeaters to repeaters via the Internet (as the name suggests) so RF is almost always involved at some point.

Does everyone here understand that these types of things are not limited to usage on the Internet? #Echolink, IRLP, etc., all work over Internet Protocol (IP), which is used on most all networks. #If amateurs set up a long-range wireless network (not necessarily something like 802.11x) that ran IP, all of these services could also exist on an amateur radio only network. #This is something I think is highly desirable for the amateur radio community to explore to continue to expand. #Why be limited to voice-only communications? #Why be limited by insanely slow packet networks? #We're using the Internet to do a lot of things now that could probably work more reliably as amateur radio services. #You could transfer data across this network, talk with other hams (via something similar to convers or IRC), use Echolink, etc. #However, it'd be on *our* network and not the commercial Internet.

Anyway, c'mon people. #Stop trying to justify these new technologies over and over and over. #And the rest of you stop trying to belittle people over and over and over because they use these new technologies. #Let's move into the future together and make amateur radio bigger, faster, stronger.

[N0WE]

Maybe we can start using the 10 code and have echo mikes. And we wonder why Amateur radio is waining. It has been so diluted you can hardly recognize it anymore.

[KF4FSE]

Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Aug. 30 2004,08:05)]Maybe we can start using the 10 code and have echo mikes. And we wonder why Amateur radio is waining. It has been so diluted you can hardly recognize it anymore.
Oh, that's right. #I forgot. #Amateur radio is not ever supposed to change. #As technology advances, we need to just let it pass us by. #This is especially true if the technology could further our hobby and get more people interested, if not making it more practical for all of us.

[N0WE]

No problem with change. I am a VE and I teach a Tech Class. I am all for eliminating the CW requirement. I have no problem with all the new data modes. My problem is using the internet.

[KF4FSE]

Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Aug. 30 2004,08:46)]No problem with change. I am a VE and I teach a Tech Class. I am all for eliminating the CW requirement. I have no problem with all the new data modes. My problem is using the internet.
I don't think using the Internet qualifies as using amateur radio. This does not mean the Internet cannot be used as an additional tool in the ham's arsenal. As stated in my previous post, I think creating and using an entirely wireless amateur radio internetwork would be much more useful fo the community.

[n0doz]

>I guess what I don't understand is why ths crap needs clarification every other week.<
Amen!!

>Are older hams that insecure about amateur radio that they must discredit and condemn any new technologies?<
Yes, apparently. They don't want to move forward, if you can believe what they say here.

>Are new hams so lazy and unwilling to learn that they cast off all the wonderful, proven technologies involved with amateur radio in favor of trendy, Internet-based services?<
Yes, absolutely. They don't want to move backward, if you can believe what they say here.

>Seriously, I just do not understand why this has to be brought up over and over and over and over again.<
Seriously, there's nothing else to complain about until the FCC restructures ham licensing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[wa4dou]

Perhaps the real answer is that new hams are easily led and swayed to believe that newer is better and older hams are not. Older hams often don't do a good job of articulating their points of view and newer ones will swallow every line of "new and improved" , often to their detriment. When it comes to the arguements pro and con cw, most forms of digital communications doesn't even come close to performing on the same level of efficiency. Therefore, why make our stations more complex than necessary(remember the KISS principle)and turn our communications over to computers to do for us? There was life before computers and there'll be life after they're gone. Oldtimers remember a world that was a lot saner before computers came along. You'll pardon us if we fail to share your enthusiasm for the insane onslaught of technology for no other purpose than to sell folks things they got along without before, with no end to it in sight. I doubt that the present economic climate can sustain ever present rates of "progress" much longer. If you believe echolink and irlp are valid forms of amateur radio, have at it. As for me, I see no practical difference between irlp and 2 individuals talking on the ends of a long distance phone line with cordless telephones(albeit, long range cordless phones). Since my fascination with radio communications was due to its "wireless" nature, I see no connection between my interest and the telephone. However, for our communicator class of hams and for ARES and such utilitarian applications, I can see the usefulness. Have at it. If it weren't for the technical side of radio communications, the ability to "communicate" would have lost its appeal long ago. YMMV!

[n0ov]

I grew up driving a truck which had a carborator and used leaded gas.

Still drive a truck, only it has fuel injection and uses unleaded gas.

It's still a truck, just has some new components that make it work a little more efficient with a little less maintenance.

On the flip side, you could buy parts for my old Ford in the corner drug store without taking a second mortgage out on the home.

Echolink? Hey, it's just a new attachment to radio that allows you to communicate. Great add to Amateur Radio. (Also has one or two more things that can do wrong.)

[KT4EB]

Okay, I've had it!!

I have stayed quiet in the shadows for as long as I can. #Now listen my fellow Ham Radio Operators, I'm going to tell you a story.

I have been a ham since I was 14 years old. (My God that was 10 years ago!) #I was introduced to the hobby at summer camp in Boy Scouts. #I worked hard to earn my license and to upgrade to Extra class. #I can't even remember how many sleepless school nights I would spend tuning up and down 20 meters. #Having said that, it's apparent I love HF. #

After IRLP made it's debut, I was a hardcore hater of it. #I mean, this was seen as a threat to everything I held dear. #It had the potential to wipe the HF bands clean of any activity!!

Fast foreward a few years, I moved into an apartment complex that was not very radio friendly. #And to top it off, due to financial problems, I had to sell my HF equipment. #I went for two years without HF, and I missed it. #Finally one day, our local IRLP repeater had a station calling CQ. #Oh how I missed answering a CQ. #So I went back to the station and had a great conversation. #This made me realize that IRLP is not the incarnation of the devil as I thought it was, but a good resource for communications.

Is it real radio? What is real radio? If I am transmitting with my radio, and you are replying with your radio, what does it matter if there is an internet relay in between? #Is it much different than a repeater? Think about it! #At least people are talking to one another. #IRLP may not have much of an advantage during emergiencies, because the internet can crash. #But it is providing a way for Hams to communicate with each other. #Emergency communications may be our primary function, but promoting good fellowship around the world is number two. #Not to mention that number three is exploring new frontiers of communications. #Two out of three isn't that bad. #

We have far bigger problems in this hobby to worry about. BPL is the monster, not IRLP. #Another problem is the lack of public knowledge of Amateur Radio. #Even Hollywood shows us as an outdated hobby (Movie: Frequency.) The younger generation needs to see this hobby in new light. #Tell a 14 yr old that you can talk to someone overseas with a wire, they will laugh. #Tell them you can do it with a handheld that utilizes the internet, they will be curious. #Then, after they are interested, let them find the path of dipoles and CW. #Don't allow this hobby to die with the Old Timers. (No offence.) #

Thank you for allowing me to put in my 2cents worth. #You may now procede to rip apart everything I have said, analyize it, and misquote me.

Brandon KT4EB
Extra Class since 1994

[KF4FSE]

Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Aug. 30 2004,12:45)]Perhaps the real answer is that new hams are easily led and swayed to believe that newer is better and older hams are not. Older hams often don't do a good job of articulating their points of view and newer ones will swallow every line of "new and improved" , often to their detriment. When it comes to the arguements pro and con cw, most forms of digital communications doesn't even come close to performing on the same level of efficiency. Therefore, why make our stations more complex than necessary(remember the KISS principle)and turn our communications over to computers to do for us? There was life before computers and there'll be life after they're gone. Oldtimers remember a world that was a lot saner before computers came along. You'll pardon us if we fail to share your enthusiasm for the insane onslaught of technology for no other purpose than to sell folks things they got along without before, with no end to it in sight. I doubt that the present economic climate can sustain ever present rates of "progress" much longer. If you believe echolink and irlp are valid forms of amateur radio, have at it. As for me, I see no practical difference between irlp and 2 individuals talking on the ends of a long distance phone line with cordless telephones(albeit, long range cordless phones). Since my fascination with radio communications was due to its "wireless" nature, I see no connection between my interest and the telephone. However, for our communicator class of hams and for ARES and such utilitarian applications, I can see the usefulness. Have at it. If it weren't for the technical side of radio communications, the ability to "communicate" would have lost its appeal long ago. YMMV!
Or, old hams refuse to accept change and embrace anything new. I can't think of very much in amateur radio where something new does not offer some advantages over the older ways of doing things. There definitely are digital modes that work better than even CW, such as PSK31. A PSK31 signal can be picked up in conditions so horrible that even CW is impossible. CW is also a form of digital communication, by the way.

As far as there being life before computers, you are correct. But life after they're gone? Ummm, I don't see computers going away. I see them becoming more and more a part of our lives each and every day. What in the world makes you think they're going away?

As for the insane onslaught of technology for no other purpose than to sell folks things they got along without before, I strongly disagree with your view. Why? Because technology does a lot of things to help us and make our lives easier. Technology != computers. But even computers have helped us out tremendously. How easy was life before automobiles? How about weather prediction before satellites and computers to give you climate models? Technology has increased food production, made communication easier for everyone, and you're using it to post on this board right now. Sure, we can live without this stuff, but we've evolved past that point.

The difference between IRLP and a telephone is that you are linking two repeaters that otherwise could not be linked. This expands the coverage of both repeaters and enhances the ability for people on 2m or so to communicate farther distances without having to tie up spectrum to do so. I think it's a great idea, especially in areas where geography prevents a single repeater from covering an entire area, but with IRLP more than one repeater can cover a specific area to give a larger footprint. This means more people can talk. Everybody wins here. Why is it so hard to make older hams understand this?

I think the appeal of amateur radio is that if you want to, you can communicate without any middle-men. However, radio has room for technologies of all sorts. The amateur radio community will stagnate if it does not embrace new technologies and move foward. It doesn't mean all technologies, or that everyone has to do everything. But it does mean this flat out refusal to do anything new has got to stop. If it does not, the hobby will die with all the old hams who refuse to try something new.

[aa7jc]

Quote[/b] (ng1p @ Aug. 29 2004,09:13)]Move yourself from the
trailing edge to the leading edge - join TAPR, AMSAT,
AMRAD, or the SETI League. Re-invent yourself. And
help re-invent Amateur Radio for the 21st century.
It would be real nice if we as hams got back the basics of how things work at the component level. #

The best clubs I know of are the QRP enthusiest clubs because they design and build and offer kits and training. (See The American QRP Club (http://www.amqrp.org/))

When I was in high school, we learned component level electronics. # I dont know if that is the case anymore.. #Hmmm...

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (aa7jc @ Aug. 31 2004,19:49)]Quote[/b] (ng1p @ Aug. 29 2004,09:13)]Move yourself from the
trailing edge to the leading edge - join TAPR, AMSAT,
AMRAD, or the SETI League. Re-invent yourself. And
help re-invent Amateur Radio for the 21st century.
It would be real nice if we as hams got back the basics of how things work at the component level. #

The best clubs I know of are the QRP enthusiest clubs because they design and build and offer kits and training. (See The American QRP Club (http://www.amqrp.org/))

When I was in high school, we learned component level electronics. # I dont know if that is the case anymore.. #Hmmm...
It would be real nice if we as hams got back the basics of how things work.


If we go back ! there is no way we can go forward.


Most amateur's know how things work, All amateur's should experiment or least we lose the concept

[na4it]

Just a comment:

A couple of gentlemen have made comments about a 2M link on Echolink. One has said this is illegal, because the other station is controlling the system with the 2M radio.

The FCC looks at Echolink and it's normal DTMF functions just the same as a phone patch. Yes, you are bringing the "patch" up and down, and dialing a number to connect. Nothing illegal about it.

As far as the control aspect, yes, if you are not at the 2M rig linked to the computer, then it is illegal if you are using it to turn the entire Echolink system off and on. But, most Echolink interfaces have facilities to connect and extra receiver for control purposes, and should probably be a 220 or 440 receiver.

Also, if the operator is using Echolink and is at the Echolink computer, he is still legal, as he is at the control point. (A lot of sysops do this, because they run high speed internet with a separate computer for Echolink, and the only way they can talk on Echolink is to go through the RF side. Echolink won't let you log on 2 systems at the same IP address.)

And another tid bit most folks don't know (unless you are a sysop). There IS a "secure back door" into the Echolink software by which you can control the system. And it is legal because it is considered "wireline control", much the same of controlling a repeater by telephone, or reverse autopatch.

Just 2 cents...well maybe 5, but you got your money's worth! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[wa4dou]

It is a popular belief that PSK31 outperforms cw as a weak signal mode. It does, only in the hands of a unskilled cw op. That belief is parroted ,over and over without merit. Skilled cw ops resort to cw after their PSK31 stops working over various paths. PSK31 only outperforms cw in the hands of those who have not devoted the time necessary to become so skilled. Thats why cw is such an effective mode for dx and for those with sub optimum antennas.
IRLP remains nothing more than a long distance connection between two cordless phones that have more range than ordinary cordless phones. As Archie Bunker would say," Woopdie dooo".

[kg6ath]

IRLP is definitely ham radio as all conversations pass over RF.

Echolink is a mixed bag.

Last I knew 60% of Echolink conversations never passed over
RF as they were strictly chatroom stuff on internet.

This is good and bad.

When a ham goes into a retirement complex where antennas
arent allowed and the building prevents his HT from being of use,
then its a god send.

What scares me is having some bright cookie realize
"Hey ! Ham radio can be done over the internet so they dont
need RF spectrum anymore!"

I advise you not to scoff at this.
I cant count how many times Ive been told that ham radio is
obsolete now that we have internet.

This thing has its ups but as long as more than half the traffic is
all chatroom, it just may blow up in our face !

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (kg6ath @ Sep. 01 2004,05:15)]I advise you not to scoff at this.
I cant count how many times Ive been told that ham radio is
obsolete now that we have internet.

This thing has its ups but as long as more than half the traffic is
all chatroom, it just may blow up in our face !
Station Summary shows a bit different,

Echolink on a slow morning, 1,655 Repeaters and links.

45 Repeaters 114 links are busy. totals 159.

Computer users 301 , with 140 busy .Some of these are using the Repeaters and Links.

Looks to me there like someone is enjoying a conversation . looks about equal to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[n9lya]

Quote[/b] (kf4vgx @ Sep. 01 2004,06:04)]Quote[/b] (kg6ath @ Sep. 01 2004,05:15)]I advise you not to scoff at this.
I cant count how many times Ive been told that ham radio is
obsolete now that we have internet.

This thing has its ups but as long as more than half the traffic is
all chatroom, it just may blow up in our face !
Station Summary shows a bit different,

Echolink on a slow morning, # 1,655 # Repeaters and links.

45 Repeaters #114 links are busy. totals 159.

Computer users 301 #, with 140 busy # #.Some of these are using the Repeaters and Links.

Looks to me there like someone is enjoying a conversation # # #. # looks about equal to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
A lot of those BUSYs are from people who leave the connection alive buthave left the BUILDING...

The stats are bogus.. Just as the number of registered users means nothing aboutthe actual number of users...
Many have left Echolink after a quick look...

73

[KF4FSE]

Quote[/b] (wa4dou @ Aug. 31 2004,05:52)]It is a popular belief that PSK31 outperforms cw as a weak signal mode. It does, only in the hands of a unskilled cw op. That belief is parroted ,over and over without merit. Skilled cw ops resort to cw after their PSK31 stops working over various paths. PSK31 only outperforms cw in the hands of those who have not devoted the time necessary to become so skilled. Thats why cw is such an effective mode for dx and for those with sub optimum antennas.
IRLP remains nothing more than a long distance connection between two cordless phones that have more range than ordinary cordless phones. As Archie Bunker would say," Woopdie dooo".
My experience has been the opposite, but, I digress. I'm not a flawless CW operator, so perhaps I'm "unskilled".

As far as IRLP being a long distance connection between two cordless phones... are you saying repeaters are cordless phones? If so, this would mean that you feel using 2m and the like through repeaters is nothing more than operating high powered, cordless phones?

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (n9lya @ Sep. 01 2004,06:22)]A lot of those BUSYs are from people who leave the connection alive buthave left the BUILDING...

The stats are bogus.. Just as the number of registered users means nothing aboutthe actual number of users...
Many have left Echolink after a quick look...

73
Yes I agree , Elvis has left the building , on a few computer connections.

But the RF side is current were not talking about registered users,were talking about the current Station Summary. This is a software feature within Echolink

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ke4zhn]

This subject has been beaten to death as much as the CW debate. Echolink is actually a little bit of both mixed together.(internet and radio) If you link to another amateur voip, then its like internet chat except with a ham radio theme. If you connect to a repeater or RF link, its radio! Its radio with a remote wired link, kind of like a reverse phone patch. Why some people get so bent about it is beyond me. If you like the technology use it and enjoy it, if not then dont! Think of the RF nodes as a radio with a REAL long microphone cable and a REAL long speaker wire... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N7XB]

IRLP is no different than two guys using cell phones. A cell phone is nothing more than a hand-held RF transceiver that connects to a backbone, comprised of RF and hardwire elements, that retransmits the RF to the recipient's hand-held transceiver (cell phone).

IRLP is "radio" to the same extent using a cell phone is "radio." Why is this so hard to understand or accept?

[ki6lo]

If one were to consider all the possible modes amateur operators are allowed to use in the allocated spectrum from HF thru microwaves, then it would be easy to just consider Echolink another mode of amateur radio (or amateur communications or amateur service or whatever you prefer to call ham radio officially).

The issue of whether "Is Echolink is amateur radio" has taken on a life of it own with a stong distinction drawn towards either side of the coin. It isn't whether it is radio so much as is it's useability. I have Echolink and use it on a regular basis to 'qso' with fellow hams around the country especially when the HF bands are dead.

I think that there is alot of resentment towards Echolink since a lot of hams think that if it isn't a transmitter in the shack connected via transmission line to an antenna radiating RF then it just isn't radio'ing and should not be allowed in the amateur service. Well it isn't controlled by the amateur service. Remember the only aspect of Echolink regulated by the amateur service is the RF link portion and the remainder (which is most of the system) is simply a VoIP service provided by Echolink (whom I applaude for doing so free of charge to the amateur radio community ).

Use it and enjoy it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #--- OR --- ignore it and don't use it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif . There isn't anyone forcing you to go either way. FREEDOM OF CHOICE - dontcha just love it!!!!!!!

Now all someone has to do it interface Vonage VoIP telephone via a autopatch and we can have a whole new thread to start 'flaming' each other about!!!!!!!!

Gene KI6LO

[n3pzz]

I think w5bak said it best.

Why does it matter?

[kc4wms]

echolink , AOL/IM , Paltalk, ICQ, all voip ,but ONLY Echolink
has the ability to tie up a repeater, then have some lid connect
and disconnect without saying anything. Or to talk over a REAL
amateur radio contact QRMing them.
yes echolink is part of amateur radio ( Sadly) just like repeater
"kerchunkers" that key up without identifying.

[WF7I]

Wow, been away from the board for a month or two, come back and see "Echolink: is it ham radio??" Sort of like the age-old forbidden code/no-code topic. How many times has this football been tossed around?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[n8ary]

Cell phone companies use VoIP to transfer signals. Is my cell phone still wireless? YES!

[kc4wms]

Quote[/b] (n8ary @ Sep. 02 2004,06:43)]Cell phone companies use VoIP to transfer signals. Is my cell phone still wireless? YES!


Since when did you test and become licenced to use a cell phone?

DUH! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

cell phones also are NOT amateur radio!

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (KF4FSE @ Aug. 31 2004,08:08)]Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Aug. 30 2004,08:46)]No problem with change. I am a VE and I teach a Tech Class. I am all for eliminating the CW requirement. I have no problem with all the new data modes. My problem is using the internet.
I don't think using the Internet qualifies as using amateur radio. #This does not mean the Internet cannot be used as an additional tool in the ham's arsenal. #As stated in my previous post, I think creating and using an entirely wireless amateur radio internetwork would be much more useful fo the community.
You do realise that if you want any kind of throughput that even approaches the speeds of wired broadband you are restricted to the microwave amateur allocations since you likely need at least 3MHz bandwidth for Megabit speeds. That means local RF-only networks. Global or regional RF-only networks will be at kilobit speeds or less due to bandwidth restrictions of the long distance HF bands unless you have a network of dedicated, high bandwidth satellite repeaters in place.

[KD7YVV]

To see how Echolink and IRLP are being used for people down in Florida, check
out my website, http://www.geocities.com/hurricane_hamnet/
It's a net that has been running almost continuously since SKYWARN closed down
after Charlie. One of the advantages to Echolink is that I can talk to people down in
Florida now who are about to be whacked really good by Hurricane Frances.
The WX_Talk conference is also monitored by the National Hurricane Center
when SKYWARN activates the VOIP-WX Net on the same conference.
I have lights, power, phones, repeater access here in Washington.
I doubt Frances is going to get me up here, but just on the chance some ham is out
in the middle of Frances, needs help, and by chance is able to hit a repeater in
Florida connected to the WX_Talk Echolink conference, by God I'll do my best to help him.
THAT is what ham radio is about. Not the code/no-code or is this or that radio.....
Frankly, FCC rules state that if you have an emergency that involves a life or death
situation, or something really dangerous, you can use any means necessary to summon
aid. Is Echolink ham radio? It may not fall under the definition of "radio" in the traditional
sense, but radio itself has evolved. (I'll stick with my tube set! I don't trust them
transistorized things!) As ham radio has evolved with different modes of communication,
so should the ham operator. Use the modes you're comfortable with. Just don't close
your mind to new ideas and new technology.

My $.02....

---KD7YVV, Kirkland Washington ARES #154

[N5UUA]

Greetings to all! The statement that amateur radio is a sum of all its parts is pretty much a given in my book and should really be common knowlege among the amateur community. Just think what might of happened many years ago if every new idea was shot down or discouraged??? We would not have some of the mode of operations we enjoy today...

So what if Echolink is using VOIP technology, VOIP is starting to take off (in the business world) and amateur radio was using it before it became so popular in the market place. Now there are all kinds of companies offering VOIP services.

Now I do prefer that RF be used in order to have real fun in amateur radio but if I wanted to talk with a friend with only a PC then so be it. Who cares?

You might find me on HF, either digital or SSB and very little CW or you can always try my Echolink station in Wagoner Oklahoma on 147.420 & 446.420 simultaniously. The node number is 99989 and it is usually on 24/7 365 days a year for the past 2+ years.

Have fun and enjoy life, it is too short to sweat the small stuff!

Jon Edwards
N5UUA # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[KG4TMK]

We live in Venice, Florida just 20 miles from the destruction of Hurricane Charley and we are currently threatened by Hurricane Frances. This area has a special need for effective radio communications during a disaster.

When we attempt to assist local authorities with communications on 2-meter it is a form of "harmful interference" to have people break into the local repeater with echo-link. The automated voice saying "echo-link connected" made one of our field personnel in Charlotte County ask "why can't you people turn echo-link off during an emergency". The problem was that echo-link was coming from an unmanned station in Venice, Florida and the operator was in Kentucky. He left orders that nobody enter his home and disconnect the equipment. We did have the option to enter a code and disable echo-link. However, remote operators with the code turned the system back on without regard to our emergency.

We hope we do not have this problem with Hurricane Frances. The simple fact is echo-link is not working well with emergency communication. Further, that remote operators who have no idea of the nature of our local emergency are causing "harmful interference" with echo-link.

The only reason a local community can support Ham Radio is if we offer professional support to local governments during an emergency. Echo-Link has proven to hinder that operation in Southwest Florida. We must do better!

[N0WE]

Now the public service angle is shot down.......Next

[xe1dvi]

Ham Radio? of course it is.... 10,000 stations connected world wide (and growing) confirms it.
W6DVI Web Page (http://www.qsl.net/xe1dvi)

[N5UUA]

KG4TMK,

Your concerns are well noted but misdirected toward an operation that is only as good as its management. The fact that the control operator went out of town and left no other persons responsible for the Echolink system is a bad situation made worse by the event of a terrible storm.

Even though I run an Echolink station I am also bothered by poor operating practices associated with the system. Over the past two years I have also noticed that as people become more familiar with it they become more conscience about its operations. Still you may have the occasional random connect that is intrusive and you may have someone connected who have poor operating manners or a poor sounding operation. This is troubling, especially for those who are trying to understand the person…

As with many things there are always draw backs and nothing seems to be 100% spot on at all times. Over the past two years I have enjoyed having an Echolink link Station on the air here in NE Oklahoma. #I have learned to take it for what it is and forgive it for what it is not.

#At this moment I have the N5UUA-L station in listen only mode while listening to the conference WX-TALK and the VOIP WX net concerning Hurricane Francis. The net is going well with little trouble at all, hopefully this will be the case when traffic is hot and heavy.

Echolink is a part of amateur radio, get used to it. And to the proposed operators from a computer station, please be mindful of possible operations on the other end when connecting to repeaters and links.

73 & God Bless!

Jon Edwards
http://www.n5uua.com
Echolink Node: 99989
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[w5ljm]

I have Echolink downloaded and I've used it to "communicate" with other ham radio operators. My signal is "transmitted" through a cable modem issued by RoadRunner high speed internet, which, I suppose is connected via cable to a phone line somewhere(?) and is somehow connected to a ham radio system somewhere,where, I suppose is "retransmitted" to another hams PC. I like Echolink, but even though it somehow is considered ham radio, I believe that because there is not a direct radio to radio contact, it is NOT intended ham radio communications. Argue if you must. It is merely a fancy "chat" format for hams with new modern ideas. Which is a good thing for some I guess. Change is good as long as one doesn't wander too far from the original intended idea.

[KD7YVV]

I agree...something's not right....


--KD7YVV

[KF4FSE]

Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ Sep. 01 2004,11:09)]Quote[/b] (KF4FSE @ Aug. 31 2004,08:08)]Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Aug. 30 2004,08:46)]No problem with change. I am a VE and I teach a Tech Class. I am all for eliminating the CW requirement. I have no problem with all the new data modes. My problem is using the internet.
I don't think using the Internet qualifies as using amateur radio. #This does not mean the Internet cannot be used as an additional tool in the ham's arsenal. #As stated in my previous post, I think creating and using an entirely wireless amateur radio internetwork would be much more useful fo the community.
You do realise that if you want any kind of throughput that even approaches the speeds of wired broadband you are restricted to the microwave amateur allocations since you likely need at least 3MHz bandwidth for Megabit speeds. #That means local RF-only networks. #Global or regional RF-only networks will be at kilobit speeds or less due to bandwidth restrictions of the long distance HF bands unless you have a network of dedicated, high bandwidth satellite repeaters in place.
Of course. It's pretty obvious that one wouldn't be able to make a nationwide link at several megabit. That isn't really what I would like to see. It could easily be something similar to the days of bbsing and Fidonet where there are hubs that are able to maintain a higher speed link via microwave frequencies (these can go a decent distance with the proper equipment) to provide a backbone to other communities, which in turn have hubs connecting to other communities, etc. The links don't have to all be higher speed either, as slower speed ones could offer functionality where none would exist otherwise.

Another possibility is to link remote nodes using pre-existing Internet connections so that the amateur radio network traffic is tunneled between two Internet nodes. While I'm sure this will illicit some sort of response from people reading this thread along the lines of "that's not radio!" ... bite me. The goal is to create a usable, practical amateur network for amateur radio operators.

So what would it be? In my mind, an internetwork of sorts for providing information and services to amateur radio users. You could run virtually any IP application without having to write new ones. Web browsers could give access to amateur radio oriented web pages containing information of all sorts on radios, propagation, weather, etc. IM applications could be used by those who want to use them as well as e-mail, file transfer protocols, and even VoIP if the link can support the throughput requirements of the codec being used. A lot of things can become possible and practical, in my opinion.

[wb6bcn]

I fully agree that the new digi modes and computer interfaced modes are excellent modes to draw fresh blood into the Amateur Radio service. #

We must not loose sight of the fact that support during any type emergency is one of the most important functions of ham radio. #We must remember that with a major storm, #or earthquake we may not have internet access, #telephone service, #or electricity for an extended period. #During such times cell phones, IRLP, #Echolink, #and other such services may not be accessible.

Develope and use new services, #but don't loose sight of what ham radio is all about in the process.

There is plent of room for the old and the new, #and I make use of both as much as possible.

[N5UUA]

Two thumbs up for how Doug WB6BCN put it! From what I have read and posted this seems to be a common theme...

"Develop and use new services, but don't loose sight of what ham radio is all about in the process."

"There is plenty of room for the old and the new, and I make use of both as much as possible."


Amateur radio has many facets to it, we can take advantage of one facet or we can go for the whole of it. One thing for sure lets enjoy the privilege we share and when the need arises lets lend a helping hand. Seems like some go from one extreme to another, I have seen these type come and go over the years. Let us keep this HOBBY both fun and important when the opportunity exist, all of this backbiting only exudes a negative stereotype.

We have lost too many good people in amateur radio just because they do not have the time for such pettiness of who is right and who is wrong about subjects relating to this hobby. Amateur radio did not really start out as a communications tool for emergency management groups; it was a technical pursuit in the beginning. Since I am an electronics tech/engineer and have built/repaired my own equipment should I criticize all of you no-code techs that can barely get by on your tech skills? NO! That is not the spirit of amateur radio, I may offer to help if I can but being critical is not going to help anyone or solve any issues.

Recently someone emailed me and criticized me for my statements posted here. This guy is a tech (probably a no-code tech) and has only been licensed for two years. This guy was very antagonistic toward me with his comments and as he put it I should stay off of Echolink and leave the emergency communications to the pros. Not only that, he also made reference to Echolink being the same as CB. Was he trying to insult me by stating that I was like a CB'er? Who knows! Who cares! I have been involved in amateur radio (off and on) since the age of 10 (now 41) and I have seen crappy attitudes before...

Some of you need to go read the history of radio so you can get a proper perspective concerning this subject. While you are at it please read the statement of what amateur radio is about.

Ham Radio's purpose is to spread goodwill around the world through radio, provide volunteer emergency communications in disasters, and maintain a pool of experienced and knowledgeable radio operators and electronics enthusiasts.

http://www.arrl.org/hamradio.html

The future of amateur radio?
http://www.fcc.gov/Speeches/misc/dnh061700.html

In hopes that this posting does more good than harm, 73' de N5UUA
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N0WE]

Use Echolink if thats what you want to do. Just don't call it HAM radio. What part of RADIO don't people understand?

[k5co]

"Age old question...."? Humm?

If it goes over the telephone line, it is a phone call.

KD5PSH

[N5UUA]

RF LINK - INTERNET VOIP - RF LINK

By the way, my Internet is served over a coaxial cable not telephone lines. Where it goes from there??? There are multiple paths... One big extension cord???

Echolink is a part of amateur radio because ham radio operators make it so. Of course it is not amateur radio... Duh! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I said enough concerning ths subject, Good Night Gracie.

[KG4TMK]

Since many readers have expressed further information regarding how Echo-Link has negatively affected the current emergency situation in Southwest Florida. The following is from the "Communicator" a newsletter of the Tamiami Amateur Radio Club:

"REPEATER/TECHNICAL - Pete-N2IZD reported that the EchoLink facility has been disabled as it was causing interference to the emergency traffic being passed on our repeater. Pete added that clarification is needed regarding the codes that can disable or activate the EchoLink facility. In response to the query of Pete-N4RD about our freedom of access to our repeater, Jim Frey-W8ISZ stated that a telephone call will give us ready access, however, the need for improvement will be addressed."

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KD5PSH @ Sep. 03 2004,11:51)]"Age old question...."? Humm?

If it goes over the telephone line, it is a phone call.

KD5PSH
Depends upon your age, I guess!

... to those who remember ham radio, and to those who don't.

[wb4aej]

Look at http://www.echolink.org and then decide for yourself. #

Integrating amateur radio with the Internet is a technical project which I have no problem with. #The problem I do have is when people limit themselves only to using other people's work without taking on projects that increase their own level of learning. #

Remember that the Internet is a technical hobby and the Internet is a technical medium. #Like flying, it is no surprise to me that a lot of hams are using the Internet for different things. #

Take a look at my ham article at: http://www.wb4aej.com/hamdomain #

73,


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #Fred, WB4AEJ

[n0doz]

The only "age-old question" is how many times can this get re-hashed? Seems like just another excuse to drive a wedge between old and new hams. Enough already! We get your point! You old hams are freakin GENIUSES for the ways you developed to communicate! THANK YOU! Really!

[w5dhg]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I believe that echolink is just as a big part of ham radio as repeaters. Yes that is right repeaters! Why because it is going through a machine and being retransmitted back. I t is giving everyone a chance to be on the air. I really do like echolink I have worked 27 states through echolink by connecting to various repeaters and link stations.

[kc4wms]

Quote[/b] (xe1dvi @ Sep. 02 2004,14:33)]Ham Radio? of course it is.... 10,000 stations connected world wide (and growing) confirms it.
and how many are LICENCED hams? it's a sham, it's NOT RADIO!!!

From Webster's :

Main Entry: 1ra·dio
Pronunciation: 'rA-dE-"O
Function: adjective
Etymology: 2radio or radio-
1 : of, relating to, or operated by radiant energy
2 : of or relating to electric currents or phenomena (as electromagnetic radiation ) of frequencies between about 15,000 and 1011 hertz
3 a : of, relating to, or used in radio or a radio set b : specializing in radio or associated with the radio industry c (1) : transmitted by radio (2) : making or participating in radio broadcasts d : controlled or directed by radio


EchoLink is NOT Radio! ILRP is NOT Radio! It's a GUI for the internet !

Get informed or get over it! you waste energy beating a dead horse!

[WD8OQX]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Another dead horse beaten to a fine powder!!!!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[kd5lwu]

Quote[/b] (KF4FSE @ Aug. 31 2004,06:56)]I do not use Echolink. #I don't use it because it's mediocre software at best and as far as I know only works in Windows. #I do not run Windows, so that's another problem.... #
Not true runs in Linux and Mac also

[W5TXR]

A legal FCC callsign is required to use Echolink.
Seems to me that is is ham radio.
I use Echolink once in a while. It's interesting.
I don't think it should be used for contesting.

[G3SEA]

To KC4WMS

Echolink registrations are authenticated in their respective geographic areas. Is it foolproof ? Is anything ? Check out the pirates on HF http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There are thousands of VHF/UHF repeaters and links used by Mobiles and HT's. The overwhelming number of contacts utilize RF at both ends.Actual traffic stats indicate hundreds of thousands of such contacts.

This wonderful system ( and IRLP ) is proving itself ( Echo/IRLP Skywarn Net ) in the current Hurricane disasters in Florida.

Is it Radio ? it's EchoLink ;)

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73 & Aloha http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # KH6/G3SEA

[KB1KIX]

Is Echolink radio? Man, I'm so sick of hearing this like it's a serious question.

Can we debate code vs. no code... can we, can we?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

It's just another facet of radio. For those that say it isn't - so what?

Is it really CW if I'm using a keyboard and a code reader?

Jonathan

[n0doz]

[QUOTE] "Is Echolink radio? Man, I'm so sick of hearing this like it's a serious question.
Can we debate code vs. no code... can we, can we?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
It's just another facet of radio. For those that say it isn't - so what?
Is it really CW if I'm using a keyboard and a code reader?
Jonathan"

AMEN, Brother!!
How about: am I really a ham if I used to be a CBer?
Or: you're not a real ham unless you took your test at the FCC!
I've got a better one: Why do people ask these meaningless questions, and why do people answer like it makes a difference?

[N0WE]

[QUOTE=Quote ] "Is Echolink radio? #Man, I'm so sick of hearing this like it's a serious question.
Can we debate code vs. no code... can we, can we?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
It's just another facet of radio. #For those that say it isn't - so what?
Is it really CW if I'm using a keyboard and a code reader?
Jonathan"

AMEN, Brother!!
How about: am I really a ham if I used to be a CBer?
Or: you're not a real ham unless you took your test at the FCC!
I've got a better one: Why do people ask these meaningless questions, and why do people answer like it makes a difference?

Wow a lot of insecure people on this board. This disscussion is not about being a ham or not, it's about Echolink

[KD7YVV]

Well, I do like the emergency communications aspect of Echolink. As previously stated, I'm up here in Washington.
I've never in my lifetime ever heard of a hurricane in Florida affecting Washington.
Frankly, I honestly don't give a hoot if it's considered ham radio or not. It's not in the true sense of the word radio as defined. However, it IS a mode of communication. There are a lot of old hams out there who have contributed many technical innovations to the hobby. I'm kind of curious to see what ham radio is going to be like in 20 years.
There is so much to explore, so many things to look at, learn about and try. (Yes, putting a knife into an electrical outlet at the tender age of three did give me a healthy respect for the power of electricity.)
All I know is, Echolink can be an invaluable resource in emergency communications, IF it is used properly and wisely.

--KD7YVV, Kirkland, WA ARES #154

[ky5u]

Someone may have said this before but, be careful pronouncing Echolink as not part of Ham Radio.... I'll tell you why.

Quote[/b] ]EchoLink is NOT Radio! ILRP is NOT Radio! It's a GUI for the internet !

Echolink is denounced because it is a computer program that uses Amateur Radio. #So what are the digital modes that run on a computer hooked to an Amateur radio? #New digital voice modes will likely come VIA computer. #WinLink 2000 used by the ARRL is an internet interface program that uses Amateur Radio as part of the circuit. #What about SSTV? #Everything is done on the computer and the Ham radio is nothing more than a medium.

Do I disagree with digital modes? #Nopers. #Just making the point that our perception of "what is Amateur Radio" must change or you need to get busy and kill it before it spreads....LOL AT lease on Echolink, you can bring it up from your handheld on one repeater and connect with a distant remote repeater for a radio to radio link where the internet is the medium, instead of the other way around!

[N0WE]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Sep. 08 2004,09:45)]Echolink is denounced because it is a computer program that uses Amateur Radio. #So what are the digital modes that run on a computer hooked to an Amateur radio? #New digital voice modes will likely come VIA computer. #WinLink 2000 used by the ARRL is an internet interface program that uses Amateur Radio as part of the circuit. #What about SSTV? #Everything is done on the computer and the Ham radio is nothing more than a medium.

Do I disagree with digital modes? #Nopers. #Just making the point that our perception of "what is Amateur Radio" must change or you need to get busy and kill it before it spreads....LOL # AT lease on Echolink, you can bring it up from your handheld on one repeater and connect with a distant remote repeater for a radio to radio link where the internet is the medium, instead of the other way around!
Easy answer, the digital modes do not require the internet. Thats the whole point. No internet, no Echolink.

[ka8yit]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Echo link is not ham radio, anytime you use a pc and the internet to get on the air that is not ham radio. The other thing i have herd some say ah worked dx today and you aske them where they worked and they tell you and you ask them what band it was in I worked them on the echo link i tell them they didn't work dx. Working dx is radio to radio no internet near it.

terry ka8yit

[kg4ghz]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif There really is a True meaning of ham Radio but let us all not forget that when YOU use RF it is HAM RADIO. I personally run a link useing my VX7R to my dedicated VHF radio to access Echo Link. Does that imply that I am not a Ham Radio operator? I have seen and been in numerous debates over VOIP and am totally discusted with the non beleivers.
Enough said. Take care all and if you do no like Echo link do not post your thoughts just sit and listen to your squelch.
KG4GHZ

[G3SEA]

Aloha

DX is 'long distance' so even a phone call can be to a 'DX'
entity BUT KA8YIT is correct in that it's not DX in the normal Ham radio sense where the Internet replaces the ionosphere ( That's why QSL's are not exchanged on EchoLink or IRLP ).

However it is a fun mode when local or propagation conditions prevent reliable communincations especially for expats linking back to their home states or countries.

If I use a laptop vice my HT then it's normally into a distant VHF/UHF repeater or Link. No it's not the same
' Magic ' of HF but it IS better than nothing http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73 & Aloha

KH6/G3SEA

[M3PDP]

M3PDP,JUST A THOUGHT, WHAT MATTERS HOW WE COMMUNICATE AS LONG AS WE DO IT IN FRIENDSHIP, ISNT THAT WHAT AMATURE RADIO IS ALL ABOUT THE WHOLE WORLD TECHNICALLY MOVING FORWARD IN FRIENDSHIP?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?
JOHN THE SHAMAN33

[w5ljm]

:0 Whether Echolink is ham radio or not. Don't know, don't care. By golly! For now it's FCC legal, so use the darn thing before someone does something to get that PRIVILEGE taken away. Someone created the program (to whom I give a personal "Thank You"), The program was evidently somehow approved by the FCC and is available to US hams. Like all other bands and modes, we'd better "Use it or loose it." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Take advantage of it while you can. We came close to loosing 10 mtrs.and all of 1.25 mtr. bands and had to fight to keep those privileges. There's always someone lurking in the shadows waiting to take the ideas and frequencies of ham radio and use them themselves.
Again I say in conclusion, please do not wander too far from the ORIGINAL IDEA and purpose of ham radio. Finding new technologies and ideas can sometimes cause one to loose sight of the intended purpose.

[W9GRN]

Quote[/b] (N0WE @ Sep. 07 2004,10:15)][QUOTE=Quote ] "Is Echolink radio? #Man, I'm so sick of hearing this like it's a serious question.
Can we debate code vs. no code... can we, can we?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
It's ju