WWJD?

[ae4fa]

Since the board is rife with non-ham topics these days, I figured I'd offer this:

As an astute (some, nay, many, would say a stupid) observer, I have often opined that

1. The only things new in a newspaper are the comics; and
2. The only things written above the eighth grade level are the comics.

I refer you to the “Family Circus” which appeared 1 November, 1998.

In it, adventurous young Billy is seen in the first panel salivating over a lone piece of cake.

The second panel shows Billy declaring to his younger brother and sister that there is only one piece of cake left, and it is his.

Billy’s mom, in the third panel, is shown asking Billy what Jesus would do in this situation.

And, in the finale, Billy clearly shows his understanding of what he has been taught. #With arms spread wide, he announces that Jesus would multiply that lone piece of cake into five thousand.

Eternal thanks to Bil Keene for his incredible discernment of the human condition.

That cartoon has been hanging on my ‘fridge since the day it was published. #I’m going to have to scan and reprint it before the paper deteriorates any further.

[KF0RT]

I... shall... resist... temptation....

[k5ahh]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Good post. If only more people would think like that.

[KI4DYA]

I'd say Jesus is being a bit negligent these days.

Drive through downtown Birmingham, lots of folks lookin' a bit hungry.

Oh, my point?

It happened (supposedly) a couple of thousand years ago. Repeat after me.

Not relevant.

If God ever did care about humanity, it's rather obvious he doesn't any longer.

Things would be better all around if he did, as it is, I got no use for him.

[ae4fa]

Quote[/b] ]If God ever did care about humanity, it's rather obvious he doesn't any longer
You might want to ponder that thought - and the original post - just a bit longer.

Is there a more appropriate question the mom might have asked Billy?

[KC8QMU]

Jesus being a bit negligent?

Doesnt care any longer?

Who are you to tell us what Jesus thinks?

And why do you think you are of the same level to tell us all, wise one? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I suppose the blind man that was cured was a millionaire. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KA9VQF]

I have a cartoon of the lockhorns on my fridg. It shows Leroy bent down looking into the open fridg with a stunned looking Loretta in the background.

Leroy is saying "looks like its to late to clean the fridg its started its own ecosystem.

line from a song "Hey JC, did you see I waved, I belive in you and God so tell me that I'm saved"

[KI4DYA]

I'll tell you who the *&^* I am to tell you what Jesus thinks.

Someone laughing at the fact it wasn't ME who threw out the vulgarity. Nice, a credit to your religion you are.

Here's the way it is.

You know a guy, he allows his wife to be beaten and raped every day, and all he has to do to prevent it is simply stand up and say 'no'. Would you think much of that man?

If God is so all freakin' powerful and so dang loving, then why the Hell doesn't he change a few things down here? After all, he spoke the world into existence didn't he? So what's the trouble with simply improving a few things HERE, without the whole 'Things will suck your entire life, but trust me! It'll get better later!'

BS. If anyone tried that crap with you, you'd knock 'em in the teeth.

God either allows things to happen the way they do because:

A) The sadist enjoys it.

or

B) He doesn't care anymore.

Either way, he's an A-hole.

[ae4fa]

Oh, my.

So, I gather that you think we'd all be better off being remotely controlled robots? No problems, no strife, no violence, no emotion, no life?

[KC8QMU]

DYA,

I've had enough things go wrong in life and said the very same things as you have. It took some time for me, but I can now look back on things and see that I have had to learn some things the hard way, and also see that some things had to happen for other things to happen to get me out of my problems. I know that sounds like complicated gibberish but thats the way it is. You dont have to believe this, but I believe there is a plan and we are along for the ride. It may not seem possible to you now but I hope that someday it does become apparent to you.

It's just my belief that when you take yourself to be large enough to speak for a higher power, it is a bad mistake. Just my thoughts and opinions, take it for what its worth or leave it.

[KI4DYA]

Remote controlled robots?
I love that argument from you people.

The SOB used to kill people for putting their hands on his precious 'Ark of the Covenant', but baby rapers, serial killers, wifebeaters and the like (just for a few examples) are allowed to run rampant.

His idea of 'saving' us was to send his 'son' to die a bloody horrific death at the hands of a psycho mob in order for the myth to be perpetuated and perverted (read: Catholicism) for thousands of years.

I dunno about you, but I'd have a lot more faith in a fellow who would actually dialog with me and get a few things done, rather than some 'mystical being' who rules with fear and offers no evidence of his caring and/or existence.

Why getting so worked up fellows? You're entitled to your opinion I'm entitled to mine. I've not attacked any of you guys, only God, and he's more than welcome to come settle the dispute.

**Posted before QMU's response. I can accept that QMU, I may not agree, but I can accept your opinion on that. And for speaking for a higher power? He's not speaking for himself...or rather he hasn't in 2k years.

[W4MAJ]

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Time out. This is one of my favorite websites to read during my down time and I'd hate to see it shut down by lightening! Let's calm down and consider a few things.

Since the first time mankind looked at the stars and wondered where he came from he as asked the same questions.

"Where did I come from?"

"Is this all that I am?"

"Why is there so much suffering in the world?"

"Why can't Mick Jagger get any satisfaction?"

Every faith has pondered these and no matter what they call God they have come to the same conclusions.

1. Considering the clockwork perfection of the universe and a living cell it could not have happened randomly.

2. Unlike lesser animals, the gray matter between ears allows us to make choices.

"What will I wear?"

"What will I eat?"

"Will I argue code or no code today?"

I believe that God most definitely cares about us today as much as He ever did. He rejoices with us when we are happy and cries with us when we are sad.

But God made us in His spiritual image. As such He gave us free will. He did not create a lockstep robot driven only by instict. Unless your a South Florida retiree, when was the last time you had the desire to fly south for the winter?

If there is suffering around you, what are you doing about it?

[ae4fa]

Quote[/b] ]Remote controlled robots?
I love that argument from you people.
Good!

Now, considering that your argument seems to be that God should prevent bad things from happening, then it only seems logical that we should not be allowed our own free will.

Surely can't have it both ways - either we are remotely controlled robots or we have our own free will, malicious as it might be.

So, which is it? #

Are we remotely controlled robots and God is the ulimate evil responsible for all the mayhem?

Or, are we beings of free will allowed to perform good or evil as we wish?





Or, would you envision a combination system wherein we are allowed free will only to the extent that we wish to do good things - and revert to remotely controlled robots to prevent us from performing evil?

Hmmm . . .

That does seem rather limiting . . .

[KC8QMU]

Personally, I believe that the reason God gave us intelligence over most other animals is so that we can discern from right or wrong and make decisions for ourselves. I believe that God lets us make our own mistakes to make our own lessons.

DYA, you are obviously going through some serious "stuff" in some form or another, keep your head straight and believe me, in time will sort it out. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KI4DYA]

I'm not saying we should be robots and live without free will.
What I'm saying is there is a definate lack of justice in the world today.

Read what I said. Take the Ark of the Covenant example.
If you touched it, you died. One guy died by simply placing a hand upon it to steady it when the wagon hit a rock in the road. Dead for touching a box.

Today, you can do whatever you want, without fear of heavenly reprisal. Ahhh, but you get punished upon death? Where's the proof, this 'God of love' doesn't do a thing to show his love to us, therefore, I have a significant amount of doubt he would do any different after I or anyone else dies.

Hell, not even EVERYONE who does a 'bad thing' has to die, do you think anyone would kill a child if there stood a fair chance of getting struck by lightning? Let's say 1 in 10. Is that too much for God? Apparently so.

I'm not saying there's NO God, just that he doesn't care.

[KA8NCR]

Sure is a lot of killing going on in "His" name.

[ae4fa]

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying we should be robots and live without free will. What I'm saying is there is a definate lack of justice in the world today.

I got no problem with that statement. My problem lies with where the responsibility is laid.

Quote[/b] ]Sure is a lot of killing going on in "His" name.

I got no problem with that statement, either. My problem, again, lies with where the responsibility is laid.

[W4MAJ]

Quote[/b] (KI4DYA @ Aug. 23 2004,20:35)]Read what I said. Take the Ark of the Covenant example.
If you touched it, you died. One guy died by simply placing a hand upon it to steady it when the wagon hit a rock in the road. Dead for touching a box.
DYA,

You seem to be engrossed in the Old Testament tonight. Let's consider the way God treated his people during that time and consider the way a parent treats a young child. Obviously a caring parent will not "smote" a child for touching the cookie jar, but remember "no" means "no". A misdead is often followed by swift reminder to the hind quarters. Now consider how a parent treats an adult child. A parent will offer advice and will watch and see if the child accepts it.

This is how God treats us today. He has told us what we should do, but He will not intervene -- no swift reminder to the hind quarters. It is up to us to chose right from wrong.

Sometimes people chose poorly.

[KI4DYA]

I like the Old Testament actually, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.

Now, I'm sure we've got different ideas on child rearing, but here's my thoughts on the matter.

When someone's a baby you must reinforce their teachings with the occasional swatting. When they're grown up you provide advice and/or allow them to make their own decisions.

One problem I have with the 'free will' argument, what happens in heaven? Is the will to sin magically removed? Why is it ok there and not here? (This is a tangent not really applicable to the discussion)

Look at humanity as a whole, if God would provide a swat every now and again, would it not provide a bit of incentive to 'act better'?

Following this example, God is the mom in Wal-Mart who always tells her children 'you better behave or I'll spank you', but never does.

[ae4fa]

Quote[/b] ]Following this example, God is the mom in Wal-Mart who always tells her children 'you better behave or I'll spank you', but never does.
Are you really sure about that?

Seems the stuff you complain of is quite the spank.

[KA9VQF]

I am not saying that there is not an all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent God out there creating universes, galaxies, solar systems and sentient beings they are handy to have around to blame things on because they never seem to come around to defend themselves.

When bad stuff happens you can always say “God works in mysteries ways”. That used to be all it took to make the pig heard quiet down and behave. With more education in the world thanks to more liberal governments the average hominid has more time to ponder and ask better questions.

I have the opinion that once the heavy work is done he {God} sorta moved on. Leaving the beings to do whatever.

I once read a story about such a being and our universe was one of his earlier science class experiments that had gone a bit astray and he just never got around to cleaning up his mess.

I also have the opinion that this God was created by man in mans own image. But better, of course, so man had something to look up to that wasn’t a non-sentient being eg. A bull, different rocks {Stonehenge, those statue things on Easter Island}, mountains, volcanoes, or the sun, or whatever the most primitive men worshiped.

Why would such a jealous God as he is described to be in the books {written so long ago by people long dead and may not have gotten it right in the first place} let the most primitive men worship any thing but him?

Believing in God beat the smeg out of what Pharaoh had to offer the “chosen people” so they invented this new religion and went with it. In some ways it was like a union in its organization and rallying the oppressed masses against the rich, powerful, government of the time.

“I swear there ain’t no heaven and I pray there ain’t no hell.” <quote grom a BS&T tune>I hope I haven’t offended anyone with my opinions here.

And yes I do have lightning rods on my house, not that they will do any good if God decides he has it in for me.

[W4MAJ]

Let me reinforce what I and other posters have already said. We are God's adult children. No more time-outs, swattings, or groundings. It's up to us now -- sink or swim. Since you're obviously versed in the Old Testament, may I suggest you try the New Testament. I don't mean that sarcastically.

God doesn't need to make an example of anyone anymore to get our attention or to teach us a lesson. He's left His word and a hope for the future. For me at least that's enough. Call me simple.

What will Heaven be like? I say let Heaven work out itself. We'll find out soon enough.

[ae4fa]

Well, this thread sure didn't go where I thought it would.

Thanks, gentlemen, for all your comments!

Bedtime here.

[AB8TM]

KI4DYA,

Let me try to take you in a different way than, I think, the others are.

Do not lock your thought of God into a religous institution (aka, Catholicism, Judism, Islam, etc.)

What institution has not been corrupted over time? I don't think that the institution of organized religion is much different.

For me, God is a very personalized thing (perhaps an instinct?) that I can't define with a word, book, or church. If you choose to not have faith in God (in words and in actions), I personally believe that God will forgive your ignorance.

If he doesn't then what kind of place would "heaven" be?

1 Philosophical ham sandwhich coming up! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KC9ETP]

Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ Aug. 23 2004,19:10)]I refer you to the “Family Circus” which appeared 1 November, 1998.

In it, adventurous young Billy is seen in the first panel salivating over a lone piece of cake.
errr..

Check that cartoon, Family Circus has always been a one panel cartoon.

[K4JSR]

Quote[/b] (KC9ETP @ Aug. 23 2004,21:21)]Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ Aug. 23 2004,19:10)]I refer you to the “Family Circus” which appeared 1 November, 1998.

In it, adventurous young Billy is seen in the first panel salivating over a lone piece of cake.
errr..

Check that cartoon, Family Circus has always been a one panel cartoon.
Except on Sundays.

73, Cal K4JSR

[KI4DYA]

I like that 8TM, that shows some thought into things.
However, I still have no faith that God cares about us, which is the crux of my whole belief.

Maybe he will forgive me my lack of faith, it's not based on anything other than a lack of evidence. (In my opinion)

Now, bear in mind, creation and the beautiful world we live in, kudos to him for that, I think it's a wonderful thing. HOWEVER, I simply think we've either been abandoned or things are running exactly the way he wants them to, neither of which cause me to have very nice feelings.

[AB8TM]

I respect and understand your belief KI4DYA.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (KI4DYA @ Aug. 23 2004,21:52)]If God is so all freakin' powerful and so dang loving, then why the Hell doesn't he change a few things down here? #After all, he spoke the world into existence didn't he? #So what's the trouble with simply improving a few things HERE, without the whole 'Things will suck your entire life, but trust me! #It'll get better later!'
When God created us, He instituted the very ideal world you now cry for. We, however, opted for the freedom to choose for ourselves, and Paradise was moved from the
"here and now" to this "later" state you deprecate.

The essence, you seem not to have realized, is that each of us makes decisions about our lives that we must then live with. How we choose to interact with our neighbors or how we respond to the needs of our families is totally in our hands.

If you choose to sit on your duff and talk about hunger and deprivation, that is your decision; you could step up and work to alleviate those conditions to the extent you can rather than berate God for your own lack of ambition.

Bob: good post, good topic. Thanks.

[KC9ETP]

Quote[/b] (K4JSR @ Aug. 23 2004,23:25)]Quote[/b] (KC9ETP @ Aug. 23 2004,21:21)]
Check that cartoon, Family Circus has always been a one panel cartoon.
Except on Sundays.
oops

oh well won't be the first time I was wrong http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KG4RYT]

Quote : Ki4dya
"Where's the proof, this 'God of love' doesn't do a thing to show his love to us, therefore, I have a significant amount of doubt he would do any different after I or anyone else dies."

His love is shown in the person of God "Jesus" John 3:16
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif What a manisfestation of love Romans 5:8 when we were unloveable he still loves us.
His love is extended every day you wake up!
His love is extended with every breath you take!
His love is extended with every blessing you have!
His love is extended with every chance of salvation!
You do not have to accept him as Lord, or trust in him,(Right Now) but you can by hearing the word (Romans 10:17)
heeding the word (II Corinthians 5:7)
You will one day confess he is Lord of all and Lord over all. Do it now under grace, and not one day before the Great white throne (Revelation 20:11-15)

God bless you all.

Jim Norman
Eden, NC

[w3bny]

And this is why I am a Pagan..... Heck you all borrowed/hi-jacked our Holidays anyhow. Ostara egg anyone? Wonder who's Yule log that is. hmm...

Anyhow, Religion, Politics, and Ham radio really dosent mix. Then again some religions and ham dont mix either http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Hi I'm Ren and I'm a recovering catholic/southern baptist....

[KI4DYA]

Jim, I'm not slamming your response, but when I say 'evidence' or 'proof', I'm actually speaking of tangible, quantifiable instances.

Maybe we will be judged, I kinda don't think so, but then again, it wouldn't surprise me because I kind of think the old man would get a lot of enjoyment out of casting us all to Hell.

Quote[/b] ]You will one day confess he is Lord of all and Lord over all.

This I'm not disputing...I'm just saying he doesn't do a very good job IMHO. He's mean, spiteful, petty and capricious. NOT someone I respect as 'ruler of all'.

So far, (since the Old Testament) all he does is make empty promises. Compare a bit:

Old Testament:
If you touch the ark you will die.
If you walk around the wall and blow your trumpets, it will fall.
If you build it, you will survive the rain.
Frogs, mites, angel of death. (The plagues)

I could go on, but it's just icing.

New Testament:
I go to prepare a place.
You will be with me in Heaven today.
Forgive your debtors.
The meek shall inherit.

See the difference? At least in the OT people had a REASON to believe. Since the coming of Jesus, it's just a bunch of empty rhetoric, almost as if 'someone' is tired of dealing with us.

Bear in mind, neither the OT or the NT is relevant today except for containing a fine set or moral values.

[KB9YCO]

Herein lies the problem with religion in general. Everyone has a different interpretation, and who knows if who interepreted whatever original religious texts from one language to another didn't give it their own spin to fit their own needs. For that matter who knows if the original writers of any religious texts weren't wasted on mushrooms, or made the whole thing up in order to direct their society in a certain direction.
I personally put no stock in anything that claims to know everything; that is just human arrogance and rationalization in order to justify one person or group's actions. Religion tends to be a set of moral fables designed to dissuade society from 'misbehaving'; when in all reality you don't need religion to realize that pain is bad, being a general a***ole won't get you far, and tolerance for others is necessary for being civilized. Anyone raised with even a modicum of common sense understands that difference between what is right and wrong, we certainly don't need a guidebook to lead us on. But, I freely admit that I have no way to one hundred percent gaurantee you that I'm right either.
That's the main problem with any religious argument, no one really knows one way or the other what the 'real truth' is. They may convince themselves that they do, but they don't. Neither side of the issue can point to any 'smoking gun' that is unquestionable, therefore it's an unwinnable debate.

[AG3Y]

It sounds like a few people could benefit from reading C.S. Lewis's fine book on apologetics, "Mere Christianity".

Learn a bit more about the book at this URL:

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/guide_xml.asp?isbn=0060652926

73 to all, and "Peace" !
Jim AG3Y

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (KG4RYT @ Aug. 24 2004,08:34)]Quote : Ki4dya
"Where's the proof, this 'God of love' doesn't do a thing to show his love to us, therefore, I have a significant amount of doubt he would do any different after I or anyone else dies."

His love is shown in the person of God "Jesus" John 3:16
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif What a manisfestation of love Romans 5:8 when we were unloveable he still loves us.
His love is extended every day you wake up!
His love is extended with every breath you take!
His love is extended with every blessing you have!
His love is extended with every chance of salvation!
You do not have to accept him as Lord, or trust in him,(Right Now) but you can by hearing the word (Romans 10:17)
heeding the word (II Corinthians 5:7)
You will one day confess he is Lord of all and Lord over all. Do it now under grace, and not one day before the Great white throne (Revelation 20:11-15)

God bless you all.

Jim Norman
Eden, NC
One cannot use scripture as proof of anything until the person you are trying to convince believes that scripture is truth...

Otherwise you are saying that since "the hitchhikers guide to galaxy" says that it is the ultimate reference, and that since it's editor and chief is "out of lunch, missing presumed fed", that we all should become slackers. Wow, what would Bob say? <evil grin>

Circular logic that even a three year old can see through cannot be used to convince an adult of anything, except that the person trying to convince them is nuts - having not developed enough to not believe everything that they are told.

Quote[/b] ]For who has knowledge of the things of a man but the spirit of the man which is in him? in the same way, no one has knowledge of the things of god but the spirit of god. ... For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the spirit of god: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the spirit. - 1 Cor 2:11,14

So, by the words of the same book -- until the spirit of god enables it, you only "throw pearls before swine" by trying to convice unbeliever by use of scripture. One may scare people into things, but that just isn't real....

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (KI4DYA @ Aug. 24 2004,13:30)]Jim, I'm not slamming your response, but when I say 'evidence' or 'proof', I'm actually speaking of tangible, quantifiable instances.

Maybe we will be judged, I kinda don't think so, but then again, it wouldn't surprise me because I kind of think the old man would get a lot of enjoyment out of casting us all to Hell.

Quote[/b] ]You will one day confess he is Lord of all and Lord over all.

This I'm not disputing...I'm just saying he doesn't do a very good job IMHO. He's mean, spiteful, petty and capricious. NOT someone I respect as 'ruler of all'.

So far, (since the Old Testament) all he does is make empty promises. Compare a bit:

Old Testament:
If you touch the ark you will die.
If you walk around the wall and blow your trumpets, it will fall.
If you build it, you will survive the rain.
Frogs, mites, angel of death. (The plagues)

I could go on, but it's just icing.

New Testament:
I go to prepare a place.
You will be with me in Heaven today.
Forgive your debtors.
The meek shall inherit.

See the difference? At least in the OT people had a REASON to believe. Since the coming of Jesus, it's just a bunch of empty rhetoric, almost as if 'someone' is tired of dealing with us.

Bear in mind, neither the OT or the NT is relevant today except for containing a fine set or moral values.
Quote[/b] ]Truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth come to an end, not the smallest letter or part of a letter will in any way be taken from the law, till all things are done. - Mat 5:18, Lk 16:17

Quote[/b] ]Thou shalt not kill. - Ex 20:13

Quote[/b] ]You have knowledge that it was said in old times, You may not put to death; and, Whoever puts to death will be in danger of being judged: But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be in danger of being judged; and he who says to his brother, Raca, will be in danger from the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, You foolish one, will be in danger of the hell of fire. - Mat 5:21,22

Quote[/b] ]Thou shalt not commit adultery. - Ex 20:14

Quote[/b] ]Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Mat 5:27,28

The new testiment actually places much stronger restrictions; it's just that most of it's believers would rather "sin that grace may abound". - Heaven forbid!, But that's the way it be.

The biggest reason that "god does a lousy job" is that he allows people free will. The debate surrounding that topic has raged for millennia and there is no agreement - basicly people blame "god" for the ablity of others to do what "god" says is "wrong"... and then they, themselves, start doing wrong (note no quotes) in order to stop the "wrong" from being done.

The world's problems are it's own doing, not "god's" ... He's only doing was to make people able to do wrong and thus able to choose to do right --- personally I'd rather have it that way.

[WA5KRP]

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/other/yleyes.gifWWJD?

If he's as smart as I think he is he'd avoid getting drug into a <bleep> ham radio forum. #What do you hope to accomplish bringing religion in here? #

TO SPREAD THE WORD by quoting scripture in a ham radio forum and denouncing those who disagree? ARE YOU KIDDING? #You're using the same foolish tactics KCØEBM tried. #And winning just as many converts.

Not only do you not know what battles to fight or where to wage them, you are clueless to the damage you inflict upon your cause.

WA5KRP #
Texas

[KI4DYA]

I didn't say there should be no free will.
Read more carefully.
I said there should be greater consequences than what are currently in place. There's a difference between choosing to do something while knowing not a darn thing will happen to you because of it, and choosing not to do something because you're afriad of the reprisal.

Oh? That doesn't work? It's still not allowing people free will?
Why are you Christians then? For the 'joy' of worshipping God, or to avoid going to Hell? Would you make the same choices if there were no Hell?

GYQ, I can understand and appreciate your response, it shows some thought, but it misses my point. My point being, in the OT when God said 'do or do not', if you went against that, you suffered as a consequence.

In the NT, if you ignored Jesus, you just got threatened.
'Ohhhh, don't you do that! You'll go to Hell!'

I hate to paraphrase a freakin' comic book, but 'With great power comes greater responsibility.'

I think most of us agree with that.
God's being quite negligent by allowing things to happen as he does. NOT by allowing the choice, but by choosing to allow those making certain choices to go unpunished.

Now, before you say, 'But they'll pay...they'll pay in HELL!', I ask you: Where's your proof? There is none. God can say (through the Bible) that there'll be repurcussions all he wishes. Doesn't make it true.

How many times do you let someone borrow money from you, without paying you back simply because they keep saying, 'I'll square you away man!'.

You wouldn't. But because it's 'God' puts it in a new light?
Don't think so.

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 24 2004,20:58)]What do you hope to accomplish bringing religion in here?
That's why there's a moratorium on code/nocode arguements! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (KI4DYA @ Aug. 24 2004,21:08)]GYQ, I can understand and appreciate your response, it shows some thought, but it misses my point. My point being, in the OT when God said 'do or do not', if you went against that, you suffered as a consequence.

In the NT, if you ignored Jesus, you just got threatened.
'Ohhhh, don't you do that! You'll go to Hell!'

...
Now, before you say, 'But they'll pay...they'll pay in HELL!', I ask you: Where's your proof? There is none. God can say (through the Bible) that there'll be repurcussions all he wishes. Doesn't make it true.
Only those who haven't read the book themselves say that... the NT is far more strict then the OT, but those who claim to follow it, don't. Period.

...

As I wrote in the other post, the scriptures are meaningless unless one believes them. Making arguements from them is meaningless unless both parties already believe -- so I am pleased that you quote a comic book! No one humanly available source holds a monopoly on truth. (and it's out there http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif )

Common ground so needed for understanding ... doing what is right, because it is right - not because of threats, out of fear - not because of trying to earn anything, out of pride - but just because it is the right thing to do. It doesn't not take religion to do that! Thankfully. And religion does not exclude that, unless used wrongfully; unfortunately the wrongful use is much more common.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 24 2004,17:58)]http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/other/yleyes.gifWWJD?

If he's as smart as I think he is he'd avoid getting drug into a <bleep> ham radio forum. #What do you hope to accomplish bringing religion in here? #

TO SPREAD THE WORD by quoting scripture in a ham radio forum and denouncing those who disagree? #ARE YOU KIDDING? ##You're using the same foolish tactics KCØEBM tried. #And winning just as many converts.

Not only do you not know what battles to fight or where to wage them, you are clueless to the damage you inflict upon your cause.

WA5KRP #
Texas
Exactly!

Good grief! Don't you know that wars have started and are currently rageing around the world because of religion?

I beleave there is a Holy Trinity also. But I wouldn't try using this forum to shove it down someone's throat to get a point across. IMHO, The Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of TOLERANCE FOR OTHERS no matter what, or who they beleave in.

Enough said.

[KF0RT]

God is the government of the ancients. Before modern science, this is how humanity explained the unexplainable because there was no other way to view our world. Today, science marches on and we learn more about our world every day. The concept of God hasn't moved forward in eons because there's only so much you can do with it, and it's already been done. Yeah, verily, God was created in man's image, by man.

The only interesting reading I've done on the subject since I attended "Bible school" as a child is the premise put forth by Stephen Hawking, in his book A Brief History of Time. You may know Hawking as the greatest physicist since Einstein. In his book, Hawking refutes the scientific evidence against God by saying that since God is omnipotent, He can manufacture evidence that is contrary to His own existence. Is this to be our proof of a supreme being? Rock on, Steve, baby... You sound a lot like Jim Bakker, but with different funding.

There's a reason it's called "faith." The presence of God (or lack thereof) cannot be proved. So, you either believe or you don't.

To my way of thinking, religion itself isn't bad. Some good stuff there on how to live and treat others with respect. But, it gets twisted fast when people start putting God and the "afterlife" ahead of the here-and-now. I have no fear of God, Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny, but some of God's followers are pretty scary, even today. If there is a God, He has reason to be pissed, but not from the likes of athiests like myself.

73, Rob (KFØRT)

[ae4fa]

For the record, I am not a church-attender. I've tried 'em all.

My faith in God remains unchanged. Just not overly impressed with the practitioners.

My wife, who is quite devout, often opines as follows:

"With friends like that, He sure doesn't need any enemies."

[AB8TM]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Aug. 24 2004,13:50)]Herein lies the problem with religion in general. Everyone has a different interpretation, and who knows if who interepreted whatever original religious texts from one language to another didn't give it their own spin to fit their own needs. For that matter who knows if the original writers of any religious texts weren't wasted on mushrooms, or made the whole thing up in order to direct their socin anything that claims to know everything; that is just human arrogance and rationalization in order to justify one person or group's actions.
I think that the way you stated that, I tend to agree with you. I think of most 'major organized religions' as grand sociological creations. The alligning yourself (meaning anyone) with a particular religion seems to me to be the same way we align ourselves with a particular sports team. A better example would be a political party. I don't believe that this inheritly makes religion evil or even a bad idea. Any pathway to God seems like a good idea to me.

Quote[/b] ]That's the main problem with any religious argument, no one really knows one way or the other what the 'real truth' is. They may convince themselves that they do, but they don't. Neither side of the issue can point to any 'smoking gun' that is unquestionable, therefore it's an unwinnable debate.

I agree, but that is exactly why a religous discussion should never start out or end up as a religous arguement. All a believer can do is plant a seed and hope it will grow. We cannot convince each other.

It's a little bit like this.

Does Love exist?

Describe it.

Does God exist?

Describe Him.

There is nothing wrong with a religous discussion. They function as a means of opening ones mind to different ideas. Religous arguements serve no practical purpose that I can see. Furthermore, I find it depressing that the mention of religion is so offensive to people.

I just used your quotes KB9CYO to expound a little bit, hope you don't mind. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AB8TM]

Quote[/b] ]It sounds like a few people could benefit from reading C.S. Lewis's fine book on apologetics, "Mere Christianity".

Learn a bit more about the book at this URL:

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/guide_xml.asp?isbn=0060652926

73 to all, and "Peace" !
Jim AG3Y

Looks like a good book Jim

[W3MIV]

Thomas Aquinas: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

St. Augustine: "Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."

Alfred E. Newman: "What, me worry?"

Brother Dave Gardner: "Is you gonna be here when JAWN gits here??

[KB9YCO]

"I agree, but that is exactly why a religous discussion should never start out or end up as a religous arguement. All a believer can do is plant a seed and hope it will grow. We cannot convince each other." AB8TM

I've seen a few people in this thread getting upset that this talk doesn't belong here, etc., but for the most part it seems like it has stayed primarily a discussion. Tolerance for others, and their opinions, seems to have tapered off around here lately, and around the world in general. We can discuss without arguing as long as we maintain civil discourse as opposed to the F U I'm right and your wrong crap that we see here time and time again. There is much to be learned and appreciated, even if you don't agree with it, by discussing subjects such as this with people diametrically opposed to yourself.
73

[K3UD]

As one who was raised in the Catholic faith attended Catholic schools and Mass every sunday, but who fell away and was unchurched for about 17 years until 1990 when I went back, I have, over time, pondered almost everything that has been brought up in this thread.

Whoever made the post about faith was, I think, on the right track. You either have it or you don't. Religion is a funny thing, even atheism, humanism, stateism etc. can be its own religion.

My read is that there have been various codes of conduct passed down since the dawn of civilization. If you believe that God exists, then it is not a large leap in logic to find some kind of "divine" intervention into the life of man which instilled in us a conscience, and the ability to determine right from wrong. If you don't believe, then you have to find another answer as to how things like a conscience and codes of conduct developed. Why is a human different from an animal?

In almost every religion in the world, there are codes of conduct and threats of consequences for violating those codes. A lot of the time you can get away with things, sometimes what you do violates the law of the land and you do, in fact, suffer consequences. Sometimes you even lose your life for the violation.

Why does God let bad things happen? Almost everyone asks that question and I think it is in reality a test of faith. Many bad things happen due to us having a free will to choose the way we want to act. If God gave us free will, why would He intervene?

So we have wars, we get Hitlers and Stalins, the holocausts, the serial killers and businessmen who rob, cheat and steal. We have the drug problems and the wrecked lives... all because we have a free will to choose what we do.

If, as some believe, we die and thats the end, than what is the point in the first place? What is the reward or what is the punishment? Where is the justice?

I think it was Einstien who said "God does not play dice with the universe".

I believe that Einstien was an agnostic.

73
George
K3UD

[KB9YCO]

" If you don't believe, then you have to find another answer as to how things like a conscience and codes of conduct developed." K3UD

That's easy; the majority of society doesn't like pain (with the exception of some freaks out there), most of us realize that doing bad things to others has a negative effect on society as a whole, most people understand that lying, cheating, and stealing are unfair and also have a negative effect.
I've never understood why some people need to believe in a deity (pick one) who would punish them for not being respectful to others. We can live with one another and conduct ourselves in a civil manner without having to have the scare tactics of punishment by a god in the afterlife. It just seems like common sense to me to not be a *&@#$@^!.
Many people were able to live together long before Christianity, or before any of the other big theologies currently in place developed, without resorting to anarchy, and in many cases perhaps with no religion at all. Who is to say that they really know everything that has transpired on this planet in the past.

"If, as some believe, we die and thats the end, than what is the point in the first place? What is the reward or what is the punishment? Where is the justice?" K3UD

This is one thing I've never understood. Why do people have to have some kind of a justification for their lives, or their actions? Why does there even have to be a point or a reward? Why not just conduct yourself in a manner that is respectful to others?
Perhaps, if there is indeed a grand scheme with a point, it's so beyond our comprehension that we try religion to find a simple explanation to make ourselves feel better? Or, that we can't handle the fact that maybe we don't understand everything in the universe and seek explanations via religion to satisfy ourselves that there is indeed something better.
Again, as I stated earlier, I would never claim to be one hundred percent sure; but, it seems to me that if we practice simple logic and kindness on one another, than perhaps there would be no need for religion at all. I know that's a simplistic statement for the complex issues of life as well, but is it really any less effective than practicing a religious philosophy to make yourself a better person? To each their own I guess.
Again, this is an argument that no one will win; I'll believe what I believe and you'll do the same. As long as we tolerate and live with one another we should be o.k.; another pipe dream for sure. Where's my pipe, damnit?

[kc2kde]

Quote[/b] (kd5wpw @ Aug. 24 2004,21:28)]Exactly!

Good grief! Don't you know that wars have started and are currently rageing around the world because of religion?

I beleave there is a Holy Trinity also. But I wouldn't try using this forum to shove it down someone's throat to get a point across. IMHO, The Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of TOLERANCE FOR OTHERS no matter what, or who they beleave in.

Enough said.
Exactly.