Swift Boat Veterans for Truth?

[w5lda]

If it's political it's a smear job.There is no such thing as a politician with morals:p

kd5vsg

[K3UD]

Anyone remember the democratic operative who produced a book on Bob Dole during the 96 campaign arguing much the same thing that the Swiftys are? He made the rounds on all the appropriate TV and radio talk shows. James Carville was laughing his A** off whenever he was asked about it.

73
George
K3UD

[K6UEY]

The big difference is, with Kerry it is so easy to believe it is true. He has that natural aura about him that comes off as some one you don't dare trust.Some one who would not hesitate to take short cuts, if it was to his advantage. Not the kind of person you would want to have access to the brief case with the big button in my opinion.He is obviously aware the charges are being believed,as he is stabbing out at Bush in typical Democratic fashion.In my opinion I would not want him in the whitehouse even on a guided tour. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KC7UP]

What I see in the above posts on this subject is people blinded by their obscene loyalty to the pachyderm party.
Curt

[K3XR]

A link to the main stream Lib media is hardly the place to go for any facts about Kerry and Swift boat vets. #Try the Swift boat vets web site and read the FAQ list. #I.E. "Overall more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. #The list includes his entire chain of command, every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam." #Kerry needs to release all of his military record.

Strange how he wants to run on his 4 month military record after he spent years putting down his country and others who served in Vietnam. #Notice he does not want to even bring up his 19 year record in Congress where he has a more liberal voting record than Ted Kennedy and Hillary.

Why is it that the Libs in the media are not demanding answers to the questions raised by the Swift boat vets?

If you want to beleive that all these vets are lying and Kerry is telling the truth....I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.

DAN, K3XR

[w5lda]

Orv

#Are you saying we should trust Bush? Look at his track record,employment,cost of living,
our children dying for the almighty barrel of oil.
When will it all end?If you beleive Bush is still the answer,then you need to get colored contact lens to hide the brown cause you are full of it up to your ears.Also dont think i am
for Kerry,because i am not.Just waiting for a better candidate to come along and i don't see that in the near future.Are you also implying Republicans don't take viscious stabs at Dems?That is a joke!

kd5vsg

[ki4bgo]

More like "Swift Boat Republicans Shakin' in their Shoes!"
I believe ol' Bushie's got something to do with this, and the situation will just get worse 'till the election. He's destined to be a one-term failure, just like dad. And he's not taking it well! Will he get a chance to do 4 more years of this, DOUBLE the already record-size deficit, and send the REST of the jobs overseas? Nope, and he KNOWS it! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[W8EFA]

The majority of the anger directed at Kerry by these men, come from their disdain for his activities after the war. For many of these men it’s a personal issue and it’s probable that their personal feelings are causing these attacks based on AFTER WAR ACTIVITIES.

The guy leading the Swift vetereans charge said when Kerry got his bravery award for picking up Rasmussen out of the, water Kerry was not in danger. Last week they found that this same Guy had in his own report 30 years ago that all the boats were receiving fire.

All I know is that Kerry volunteered, received 2 medals for bravery, received 3 purple hearts, and the 15 men WHO DIRECTLY SERVED UNDER and best know his war time activities stood up for him on the National stage.

In contrast Bush had his daddy get him in the National Guard where he lost his flying priveledges for not showing up for a drug test. Cheney had something like 9 deferrments as did Ashcroft.

[K6UEY]

W8EFA,
You might be right about the after war activities,not too many veterans ever took a liking to Jane Fonda and her crowd. Besides with the time line it would almost have to be after the war,most of these guys spent their complete tour in country.So for 3/4 or more of their tour Kerry was already home,since he was only there a couple of months. Just long enough to be a hero collect his medals and run home to tell congress,what a sorry mess his buddies were over there,you know the one's who's ass was on the line the FULL tour. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Turn about if fair play. Ferinhite 911, Michael Moore and the other left wing smear agencies have been the ones that swing the ax for the Dems. Now it appears when the heat is applied to them, they squeal like franks on a grill. The Dems have spent more than three times the money for smear campaings. #American politics... Saturday Night Live loves a political year. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W8EFA]

Seems to me his detractors are splitting hairs. How long was his tour, how deep were his wounds. I think it is ridiculous.

Can anyone dispute that this man volunteered, went to Vietnam, and got shot at? How many of his detractors cruised down the Mekong getting shot at?

Bottom line he voluntarily risked his life for his country, no if's and's or but's..

[K6UEY]

W8EFA,
How many crusied down the MEKONG getting shot at,EVERY DAMN ONE of the swift boat crews,and they did it for their FULL tour,they didn't grab a bandaid and run home a hero to bad mouth their comrades still fighting. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[W8EFA]

OK UEY What enemy fire did your hero Bush come under? Aren't we comparing the 2 candidates?

[K6UEY]

W8EFA,
It would appear we have different criteria when picking a President of the United States.Obviously Mr. Kerry was under the impression that spending a few days in country and coming back with his medals ( the one's he didn't throw away) was all that was needed to make him presidential material. I don't recall the last president being a Military Hero. Quite to the contrary he went to a foreign country to evade the draft,then bad mouthed the country from foreign soil.
As to President Bush's qualifications he has with out a doubt shown in the last four years he can handle the job with the exemplary job he has been doing.He has turned the 8 years of Clinton economy back around,he is creating over 30,000 jobs a month ,he saved the country from what could have been one of the worst recessions the country has seen,he has proved he is qualified,no intelligent person can even question that.
I'm sorry but given the choice of no war Hero ,or a FAKE war hero,the office of the president only has room for an HONEST person. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N8CPA]

The helm of the ship of state is far more complex than the tiller of a river boat. Our current Commander in Chief is a veteran of a foreign war because one was brought to our shores three years ago, which trumps 4 months in Vietnam 35 years ago, as far as I'm concerned.

And, yes, I'll even grant that Clinton is a veteran, loathe as I am to do so, in light of WTC'93.

The TOPIC is Kerry and his service in VN and the record he accumulated (and now brags about 35 years later)

THe topic is NOT about comparing Bush to Kerry.

It's about Whether or not Kerry DID or did not do those things he CLAIMS (today) that he did or did not do.

STOP Trying to bring Bush into this.

He's NOT a aprt of the topic. The TOPIC is Kerry and HIS claims about his VN service.

Stick to THAT item. STOP trying to tossin things which are NOT germane to the topic.

Are the Swift Boat vets telling the truth?
Is Kerry telling the truth?

The Swift Boat vets have accumulated a LOT of 'THEY WERE THERE!' eyewitnessess who attest (and profess) what they saw.

Kerry provides a SMALL (VERY SMALL) quantity of rebuttals by a small group of folks.

YET!! The definitive iformation is available SIMPLY by Kerry signing a form! yet he won't do it.!

That raises a VERY BIG QUESTION?

WHY!!

If I had the means to open a file and put to bed PERMANENTLY all the issues in my favor do you think I'd do it? SURE!

If Kerry has the proof in his military records and HE can release them with a simple form.. and it would take the heat off of him. WHY won't he do it?

HMMMM!!! Interesting question indeed!

THAT is the question..

Stop muddying the waters with issues that are NOT germane to hte topic.

[N8CPA]

What also may be germane to the topic is that Kerry took a camera into the combat zone, while boasting--according to some sources--of his intentions to become the next JFK. That makes me question whether his purported exploits might be as much "hollywood" as true heroism.

Opening his service records would very likely answer such a question. Given his reticence to open them, I don't think he likes the answers they contain. If he wants his VN service to be the key issue of his campaign, he should accept without complaint critiques of that service. Or if his military record is that important, prove the critics wrong with official documentation.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] ]How many of his detractors cruised down the Mekong getting shot at?



Uh, the ones who wrote and were cited in the Swift Boat book...

-

Kerry went and served. For that, the Nation owes him our gratitude. It is my belief he gamed the system to his advantage. It is only my belief, nothing more. In my opinion, his service is less than what it could have been, but he served none the less.

I would prefer that both men focus on their vision of what America needs to look like in 2008 vs. what it was in 1971.

One man's ramblings...

[K0YNE]

I believe that Kerry had every right to question the reason why the US continued to be in Viet Nam. Look at the results. Over 58 thousand killed in battle, and then the entire country collapsed. I was in during the beginning of the war over there. 64-65.. I was in Europe, but it just started getting hot when I was half way through. I even had strong feelings that we shouldn't have ventured into Viet Nam. Too many body bags everyday at news time. We don't want to get into that kind of fix ever again. Just my opinion.

[K0RGR]

Have you ever read what Kerry actually said in his speech to congress in 1971?

Here's a link:
http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

Here's a more complete version:
http://www.c-span.org/2004vote/jkerrytestimony.asp

This whole stinking thing is another "Gore invented the Internet" smear. Gore never said he invented the Internet. In effect, that came from the Republican National Commitee, just like the charges that Kerry accused all of his fellow Vietnam veterans of being war crinimals.

What we have here is a compound lie. Most of the people in "Swifties for Bush" are upset because of the things Kerry said about them before congress. But Kerry never said those things. In one paragraph, he summarized what he said were stories told by over 150 Vietnam veterans who were involved in what his organization called the "Winter Soldier Investigation".
He never claimed to have witnessed those things. If you read his testimony it should be obvious that he is proud of his service and his fellow veterans, and extremely concerned for their safety and their ill-treatment by both the government and the public.

I think that most of his conclusions about the war have proven to have been accurate. He did say that a high percentage of our troops were high most of the time - that might be disputed, but I know some who would not.

I really believe that this is backfiring on the Republicans. In effect, calling into question a war hero's decorations casts doubt on the decorations earned by any veteran. People may start to think, and realize that there hasn't been anything but negative campaigning from Republican central for about the last 20 years.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] ]CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush on Monday denounced campaign commercials aired by outside groups, including an ad that accuses John Kerry of lying about his combat record in Vietnam.

"That ad and every other ad" run by such groups have no place in the campaign, Bush said when asked about the commercial sponsored by Swift Boat Veterans For Truth that has roiled the race for the White House.

Asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, Bush said, "I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record."

Full story here. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=1&u=/ap/20040823/ap_on_el_pr/war_politics)

The truth comes out eventually... this is the second time President Bush has called for the removal of all 527 ads (including from groups such as MoveOn.org and Swift Boat Veterans for Truth).

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KB9YCO]

"A link to the main stream Lib media is hardly the place to go for any facts about Kerry and Swift boat vets. Try the Swift boat vets web site and read the FAQ list." K3XR

So, instead go to an equally biased website with a very obvious agenda. That makes a lot of sense.
Since when did the Tribune company become a 'liberal' newsource anyway? Obviously, you don't live in the Chicago area or you'd know better, as W9NGC so wisely pointed out. All that liberal media talk is a load anyway, there is just as much partisan reporting on the other side and anyone that doesn't think so is living in a dreamworld.
They're all full of crap on this one; more extremist garbage being flung around from both sides, and neither one probably anywhere near the truth, but the media plays right along. Sad.

"Obviously Mr. Kerry was under the impression that spending a few days in country and coming back with his medals ( the one's he didn't throw away) was all that was needed to make him presidential material." K6UEY

Orv, you go spend 4 months in Vietnam during the height of the war and let me know if it feels like a few days. I'm sure people like my father, and many others, would disagree with you.

"As to President Bush's qualifications he has with out a doubt shown in the last four years he can handle the job with the exemplary job he has been doing.He has turned the 8 years of Clinton economy back around..." K6UEY

Turned it around from a record surplus to a record deficit; you see that as a positive thing?

"...he is creating over 30,000 jobs a month..." K6UEY

Where? In other countries where most corporations have been shipping their jobs? Meanwhile, Americans getting this abundance of new jobs, supposedly, are making considerably less than what they used to, and in many cases taking a job much below their qualifications because that's all that is available.

"...he saved the country from what could have been one of the worst recessions the country has seen,he has proved he is qualified,no intelligent person can even question that." K6UEY

He has helped to create one of the largest recessions and deficits in American history. I don't know where you're getting your facts, but any 'intelligent person' that really looks at the facts, uncolored by partisan leanings and from unbaised sources, will see that the Bush administration has done severe damage to our economy. Do I think Kerry will be the great savior? Probably not, but at this point we need to try just about anyone else. I just wish we could vote 'none of the above' until a worthy candidate comes along. Good luck with that since most would get overrun by special interest lobbyists and big money.

[n3ijw]

You know where that budget surplus came from?

It came from people like me who served in a gutted, underpaid, and significantly undermanned military throughout the 1990s, working 12-16 hour days to cover for huge shortfalls in people and equipment, while simultaneously dealing with wall to wall rotations to the desert to babysit a certain middle eastern country.

Nothing comes without a price.

[KB9YCO]

No argument here Sean; I've never placed any large value on the last administration either, but the facts are the facts, and what I see going on these days is not good.

[n3ijw]

Brett, just keep in mind we are in the middle of an ongoing war, which never comes cheap. On top of that, remember that spending is accomplished by our Congress, not our President. Whoever happens to occupy the White House at the time doesn't have as much bearing on where our money goes or the state of the overall economy as some would think.

As far as outsourcing goes, it is my opinion much of the blame for that can be placed directly on us. It seems like people come out of high school expecting $35-45K+ jobs right off the bat. I see it all the time. I don't even want to discuss unions #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

And to get back on topic...the ball is in Kerry's court now. 527's were the Democrats baby, and now they have to put up with it. Kerry is now faced with the realization that making his Vietnam service the centerpiece of his campaign may not have been the best choice. And using legal threats to try and squelch SBVT just plain looks bad, particularly in light of the repugnant tactics used by MoveOn, etc.

Anyway, you already know where I stand for the most part, so I won't bore you or anyone else with my Evil Conservative blatherings.

I can't wait until this crap is over for another four years.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Aug. 23 2004,13:27)]He has helped to create one of the largest recessions in American history.
Oh? Worse than James Earl Carter's, the days of double-digit inflation?

Quote[/b] ]Domestically, Carter had difficulties controlling inflation, which rose in each year of his administration—in part because of oil price increases after the Iranian revolution. The Federal Reserve Board's drastic remedies for curtailing inflation led to interest rates of more than 20% by 1980. (emphasis mine)
Data courtesy Infoplease.com (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0810628.html)

Now, according to Inflationdata.com (http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/default.asp), as of the time of this posting, the inflation rate is 2.99%

As for the worst in American history, ever hear of the Great Depression?

Maybe you need to look at the real facts instead of the factoids from the Democrats.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K8EEI]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,00:46)]Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Aug. 23 2004,13:27)]He has helped to create one of the largest recessions in American history.
Oh? Worse than James Earl Carter's, the days of double-digit inflation?

Quote[/b] ]Domestically, Carter had difficulties controlling inflation, which rose in each year of his administration—in part because of oil price increases after the Iranian revolution. The Federal Reserve Board's drastic remedies for curtailing inflation led to interest rates of more than 20% by 1980. (emphasis mine)
Data courtesy Infoplease.com (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0810628.html)

Now, according to Inflationdata.com (http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/default.asp), as of the time of this posting, the inflation rate is 2.99%

As for the worst in American history, ever hear of the Great Depression?

Maybe you need to look at the real facts instead of the factoids from the Democrats.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
I'm real happy with my medical coverage .....Which is absolutly nothing ...what do you have ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K8EEI]

Well ?

Over? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[K8EEI]

If I get sick , I'm screwed .....you ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (K8EEI @ Aug. 23 2004,20:53)]I'm real #happy with my medical coverage .....Which is absolutly nothing ...what do you have ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I had whatever I paid for while I was self employed. Now that I work for another company, I have wonderful insurance coverage in the US. But, since I don't work in the US, I have what I pay for. Sounds fair to me. The last thing I want is some insurance company telling me when and where I can get treatment for my family.

Quote[/b] ]Well ?
Yes, I studied several today. How about you?

Quote[/b] ]Over?
Red rover? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[K8EEI]

So if I go to the hospital , should I tell them what?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??/

Over ?

[K6UEY]

Well you know across the Border in Canada they already have Socialized Medicine Health Coverage,and they tell me they come across the border to the US for care.When Bush is re-elected there will be little chance we will see Socialized Medicine here,on the other hand that fits right into what Kerry has in mind.Of course I have VA coverage as a VET,which has room for improvement,but as a Senior I don't look forward to Socialized Medicine in this country,what Congress has done to the Medicare and Medicaid programs should be example enough for anyone. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[KC8QMU]

Well, i have medical insurance from work, but yes, they have a list where i can go that i am bound to. It beats the hell out of nothing, especially if you have a family. Im not complaining. I went for a few years that I got lucky that nothing happened to me, I consider myself lucky.

[K8EEI]

So , if I get sick ...I should tell em what .......? again ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[K8EEI]

Should I tell em these guys on QRZed said it's really good and I will be taken care of . ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Over ? please ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 23 2004,18:41)]Well you know across the Border in Canada they already have Socialized Medicine Health Coverage,and they tell me they come across the border to the US for care.When Bush is re-elected there will be little chance we will see Socialized Medicine here,on the other hand that fits right into what Kerry has in mind.Of course I have VA coverage as a VET,which has room for improvement,but as a Senior I don't look forward to Socialized Medicine in this country,what Congress has done to the Medicare and Medicaid programs should be example enough for anyone. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
There will never be socialized medical care in this country. There's far too many reasons beyond it being substandard care.

For starters, the insurance companies make a lot of of money selling insurance. They are not going to sit idle while the federal government legislates them and their workers out of business. How many people do you think work in the insurance industry? What do you think pulling all that money out of Wall street will do to the economy and the market? There's a lot of powerful lobbies for the insurance companies.

Doctors and the health care provider business as well as the pharmeceutical companies all make a ton of cash off third-payor systems. They are not going to sit idle while that cash cow is legislated away. Furthermore, they are not going to be willing to have to deal with the federal government to get payment for services nor do they want to have to stare a patient in the face and negotiate a price with them knowing that if they don't get treatment, they die. This isn't going to happen.

Socialized medicine can't happen without significant tax increases. Bush isn't going to raise income taxes and certainly Kerry isn't either. To do it like they do in Canada requires GST and PST or some other type of value-added tax. Do you really want the legislative branch modifying the constitution to support a national sales tax? This might happen, but it's not going to be for socialized medicine.

Kerry can talk all he wants about socialized medicine, it's just not going to happen.

[n3tvs]

As for Bush loosing his flying privlidges. Check the records. He was transferred to the National Guard and TURNED OVER his flying privlidges. HE DID NOT LOOSE THEM. He did not GO to the "mandatory" physical to keep his flying privlidges because he had transferred. NOT WENT AWOL. Sorry...

Melissa

[K6UEY]

N3TVS,
Melissa, now you stop that!! You start quoting facts in support of our President and you will ruin the day for all those hard working Liberals.
Quoting facts to a liberal is like feeding Gerbers to a baby,if you feed it too much, too fast, it all comes back up!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (n3tvs @ Aug. 23 2004,19:57)]As for Bush loosing his flying privlidges. Check the records. He was transferred to the National Guard and TURNED OVER his flying privlidges. HE DID NOT LOOSE THEM. He did not GO to the "mandatory" physical to keep his flying privlidges because he had transferred. NOT WENT AWOL. Sorry...

Melissa
Greetings, Melissa!

So nice to see a YL check in here... and an intelligent one, one that knows the difference between a real fact and a Democratic factoid. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Keep up the good work, and don't worry if the liberals start attacking you... it means you are getting to them, and scoring points.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K0RGR]

This from the New York Times article on the Swift Boat story this morning:

"The Swift boat group, meanwhile, was explaining a connection between it and Ms. Arceneaux. Records obtained by The New York Times also list Ms. Arceneaux as an officer of a political strategy company headed by William Dal Col, who has managed Republican campaigns.

She has also been an officer of several conservative organizations, whose other officers include Deborah Steelman, a Bush adviser on health care in 2000, and Sally Atwater, whose late husband, Lee, was an architect of the famous "Willie Horton'' attack advertisement against Michael S. Dukakis when he ran against President Bush's father in 1988."

So, this group is connected to the group that did the Willie Horton ads for Daddy Bush, eh? Those ads were why I turned my back on the negative campaigners, and will never, ever vote for a Bush.
I thought the president had done the right thing and called for these ads to be pulled, but of course, he didn't.

Sorry, this guy is definitely in the running for worst president of all time. If 9/11 had never happened, he'd already have been coronated for that honor.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (n3ijw @ Aug. 23 2004,16:06)]You know where that budget surplus came from?

It came from people like me who served in a gutted, underpaid, and significantly undermanned military throughout the 1990s, working 12-16 hour days to cover for huge shortfalls in people and equipment, while simultaneously dealing with wall to wall rotations to the desert to babysit a certain middle eastern country.

Nothing comes without a price.
The budget surplus predominately came from:

$71 billion from an uptick in tax revenues due to the business cycle

$21 billion in reduced spending post S&L bailout

$8 billion of one time revenue from auctioning off spectrum to cell phone companies

Defense spending cuts (but that was over 3 or so years) of $29 billion

And inflation stayed between 1.34 and 3.32 percent over most of the 90's

[n3ijw]

Yes, thank you. I was merely trying to point out the money came from somewhere and did not magically appear on the ledgers.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] (n3ijw @ Aug. 24 2004,08:14)]Yes, thank you. I was merely trying to point out the money came from somewhere and did not magically appear on the ledgers.

Remember the typical accounting interview goes like this:

Employer: What is 1 + 1?

Interviewee: What do you want it to be?


--


All the best!!
You must not be an accountant, especially a government accountant. #Money appears and disappears all the time from their ledgers.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 24 2004,05:41)]This from the New York Times article on the Swift Boat story this morning:

"The Swift boat group, meanwhile, was explaining a connection between it and Ms. Arceneaux. Records obtained by The New York Times also list Ms. Arceneaux as an officer of a political strategy company headed by William Dal Col, who has managed Republican campaigns.

She has also been an officer of several conservative organizations, whose other officers include Deborah Steelman, a Bush adviser on health care in 2000, and Sally Atwater, whose late husband, Lee, was an architect of the famous "Willie Horton'' attack advertisement against Michael S. Dukakis when he ran against President Bush's father in 1988."

So, this group is connected to the group that did the Willie Horton ads for Daddy Bush, eh? Those ads were why I turned my back on the negative campaigners, and will never, ever vote for a Bush.
I thought the president had done the right thing and called for these ads to be pulled, but of course, he didn't.

Sorry, this guy is definitely in the running for worst president of all time. If 9/11 had never happened, he'd already have been coronated for that honor.
Oh, yeah, it's terrible that Republicans would be on a campaign to call Kerry's record into question.

But, things like the following are perfectly okay (all emphases mine):

Quote[/b] ]The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.
Note: MoveOn.org is a 527 group, just like Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is.
Full article from Democrats.org (http://www.democrats.org/wvc/weekinreview/200305120002.html).

Also from Democrats.org (again, emphasis mine):
Quote[/b] ]The DNC is also conducting a major petition drive in partnership with MoveOn.org. More than 310,000 Americans have signed the petition to protect our courts — with more than 172,000 of those signatures coming in the past 36 hours. The petition calls on Bush and the Republicans to stop nominating judges that are out of step with mainstream Americans and praising the Democrats for standing up for their rights.
Here's the link so you can see for yourself (http://www.democrats.org/news/200311140002.html).

And then there's this CNN article where Kerry has hired a person directly from MoveOn.org to work on his campaign (emphasis mine again):
Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- John Kerry has hired an Internet-savvy Democrat to run his presidential campaign's online communications, a move that raises new questions about the link between his campaign and the independent groups that run TV ads on his behalf.

Zach Exley, the director of special projects for the MoveOn PAC, is going to the Kerry campaign to become its director of online communications and organization.
Full story here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/07/kerry.exley/).

Et tu, Brute?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (n3tvs @ Aug. 23 2004,19:57)]As for Bush loosing his flying privlidges. #Check the records. #He was transferred to the National Guard and TURNED OVER his flying privlidges. #HE DID NOT LOOSE THEM. He did not GO to the "mandatory" physical to keep his flying privlidges because he had transferred. #NOT WENT AWOL. #Sorry...

Melissa
Melissa, sorry but I believe you are wrong. I have the actual military record on GIF if anyone wants to have it. I can E-mail it to you if you don't believe me.

(grounded.gif ) - Bush's suspension from flying; "Reason for Suspension" Failure to accomplish annual medical examination." (9/29/72; confirming verbal orders of 8/1/72) (James Bath is also suspended on this same document.)

Also I have the actual documents threatening active duty for poor attendance etc.

[KB9YCO]

"He has helped to create one of the largest recessions in American history." KB9YCO

"Oh? Worse than James Earl Carter's, the days of double-digit inflation?... As for the worst in American history, ever hear of the Great Depression? Maybe you need to look at the real facts instead of the factoids from the Democrats." N7AAO

Read the sentence again; I said ONE of the worst, not the worst. I notice you didn't address that fact at all. Go ahead and try to deny it, the facts are there and verifiable from a number of sources beyond political parties.
Just so you know, I don't get my facts from the democrats, I get my facts from the reality of the situation; and I certainly don't trust the democrats any more than I trust the republicans, nor would I trust data solely from either one. There are certainly plenty of sources to find out the status of our country's economy, stop believing one party over the other and look at the truth in between.

[N7AAO]

Okay, YCO, let's look at another figure.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm), in July 2004 (the most recent report), the unemployment rate is 5.5%.

In July 1995, it was 5.7%.

Gee, who was President in July 1995?

Also, in the July 2004 report, there are 139,660,000 people employed. In July 1995, there were 122,706,000 employed.

Again, who was President in July 1995?

It is perhaps fortunate for President Carter that BLS only archives 10 years of records. ;)

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p.s. I am not afraid to post the sources for my data... where are your sources, YCO?

[K3UD]

Quote[/b] (KB9YCO @ Aug. 24 2004,12:25)]"He has helped to create one of the largest recessions in American history." KB9YCO

"Oh? Worse than James Earl Carter's, the days of double-digit inflation?... As for the worst in American history, ever hear of the Great Depression? Maybe you need to look at the real facts instead of the factoids from the Democrats." N7AAO
People tend to forget what happened in the Carter (and to be fair, the Ford) administrations.

The Carter recession was actually rather close to a depression, probably as close as we ever got to 1932. Anyone remember the 21.5% prime interest rates, the tremendous impact it had on everything from consumer purchasing, to home building, and especially agriculture in this country.

We had 3 or 4 years of double digit inflation. Anyone remember the WIN buttons (whip inflation now) issued in the Ford Administration or the "I refuse to participace In the recession" buttons passed out by thousands of Chambers of Commerce during the Carter administration? This inflation in those years is the PRIMARY reason why median incomes in this country falied to keep up and why wages, in terms of real dollars, have been very stagnent.

The Democrats always seem to say that "this is the worst recession in 50 years" during presidential elections if they are out of power. I remember it in 1972, 84, 92, and now once again.

What happened in 92 and is happening today did not, and does not begin to compare with the war things got between 1977 and 1981. Not close!

73
George
K3UD

[KB9YCO]

David, if you need a source for every well known fact and figure around you may have more issues than just what I think. All the things I've posted are readily available from a number of government sources, and otherwise; I'm certainly not going to list a link to every fact and figure I know of, nor would I question the information you posted merely because there was no source linked to the comment.
Also, please stop making the statements that I am defending Clinton, or the Democratic party; I have NEVER claimed allegiance to either group of crooks. I never made any comparison to Bush versus Clinton, you made that comparison.
All we can do is vote for what we think is the better of the two, pay as much attention to the changes in law, stay involved with our representatives, and hope for the best. Good luck to all of us.
Either way, I can't wait until this election is over.

[N7AAO]

Here's one more for ya, YCO: The United States is not currently in a recession at all!

As defined by WordIQ.com (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Recession), a "recession" is:Quote[/b] ]A recession is usually defined in macroeconomics as a fall of a country's Gross National Product in two successive quarters.

If you prefer Webster's (http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/recession), then a "recession" is:Quote[/b] ] A period during which economic activity, as measured by gross domestic product, declines for at least two quarters in a row in a specific country. (Note: GNP and GDP are generally interchangeable, sort of like megahertz and megacycles.)

Now, according to this report (http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm) from the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis, Quote[/b] ]Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States -- increased at an annual rate of 3.0 percent in the second quarter of 2004, according to advance estimates released by the Bureau of Economic Analysis. #In the first quarter, real GDP increased 4.5 percent (revised). (emphasis mine)

Therefore, we have had two quarters of growth, not decline.

Therefore, under the definitions listed above, the US is not in a recession.

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[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,10:36)]Okay, YCO, let's look at another figure.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/schedule/archives/empsit_nr.htm), in July 2004 (the most recent report), the unemployment rate is 5.5%.

In July 1995, it was 5.7%.

Gee, who was President in July 1995?

Also, in the July 2004 report, there are 139,660,000 people employed. In July 1995, there were 122,706,000 employed.

Again, who was President in July 1995?

It is perhaps fortunate for President Carter that BLS only archives 10 years of records. ;)

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p.s. I am not afraid to post the sources for my data... where are your sources, YCO?
AAO-

Citing individual statistics from different era's is not a logical argument. #The economy is much too complicated with factors including housong starts, poverty levels etc.

As in most of your responses unfortunately you take disparate factoids that dont add up to any clear analysis of the situation as a whole.

You cite that there are 139Million employed today and there were 122Million in 1995? However there are 294 Million people in the U.S. today as opposed to248 Million in 1995.

Fact is this administration has lost over 1 million jobs. #
Fact is the economy has shown spurts of life on and off over the last 6 months but the economy is not good at present and the US population as a whole and all the economists know this.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 24 2004,11:58)]Fact is this administration has lost over 1 million jobs. #
Fact is the economy has shown spurts of life on and off over the last 6 months but the economy is not good at present and the US population as a whole and all the economists know this.
Riiiiiight.

Then why have we shown two quarters of growth back-to-back?

I know! Just the idea that Kerry might get elected is spurring the economy to new heights! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

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[n9yb]

What is the distribution of the 1 million jobs lost? I would expect there to be a fair amount of job loss in the dot bomb sector as it employed a heck of a lot of people prior to imploding. Does anyone have figures as to the distribution of workers (white, blue, high tech, etc..) and is it in a historic proportion or has it shifted?

[n3ijw]

Quote[/b] (W9NGC @ Aug. 24 2004,15:24)]294M/248M = 1.185

139M/122M = 1.139
not a valid statistic unless you are counting only those of "working age".

that is all, back to lurking for me.

[W8EFA]

http://jobwatch.org/creating/index.html

AAO we had 3 years of job loss under Bush. #Then we had one somewhat promising #mont or two in early 2004 with finally some job gains. #However the next quarter slacked off again.

Last month, the economy created a paltry 32,000 new jobs. Keep in mind, about 150,000 new jobs need to be created every month just to keep up with the new workers entering the labor market.

Most of these jobs are manufacturing from what I have read.

Bush will be the first president to leave office with a net job loss in 70 years!

[N7AAO]

From U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab6.htm)

Quote[/b] ]Series Id: LNU02000000

Not Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Unadj) Employment Level
Labor force status: Employed
Type of data: Number in thousands
Age: 16 years and over


Series id Year Period Value
LNU02000000 2000 Jan 134912(1)
LNU02000000 2000 Feb 135490
LNU02000000 2000 Mar 136054
LNU02000000 2000 Apr 136927
LNU02000000 2000 May 136685
LNU02000000 2000 Jun 137915
LNU02000000 2000 Jul 137769
LNU02000000 2000 Aug 137308
LNU02000000 2000 Sep 136790
LNU02000000 2000 Oct 137532
LNU02000000 2000 Nov 137461
LNU02000000 2000 Dec 137846
LNU02000000 2000 Annual 136891
LNU02000000 2001 Jan 136181
LNU02000000 2001 Feb 136577
LNU02000000 2001 Mar 137155
LNU02000000 2001 Apr 137022
LNU02000000 2001 May 137121
LNU02000000 2001 Jun 137737
LNU02000000 2001 Jul 138239
LNU02000000 2001 Aug 136809
LNU02000000 2001 Sep 136835
LNU02000000 2001 Oct 136885
LNU02000000 2001 Nov 136370
LNU02000000 2001 Dec 136269
LNU02000000 2001 Annual 136933
LNU02000000 2002 Jan 134177
LNU02000000 2002 Feb 135443
LNU02000000 2002 Mar 135558
LNU02000000 2002 Apr 135903
LNU02000000 2002 May 136559
LNU02000000 2002 Jun 137181
LNU02000000 2002 Jul 137495
LNU02000000 2002 Aug 137295
LNU02000000 2002 Sep 137377
LNU02000000 2002 Oct 137551
LNU02000000 2002 Nov 136684
LNU02000000 2002 Dec 136599
LNU02000000 2002 Annual 136485
LNU02000000 2003 Jan 135907(1)
LNU02000000 2003 Feb 136433
LNU02000000 2003 Mar 136783
LNU02000000 2003 Apr 137424
LNU02000000 2003 May 137567
LNU02000000 2003 Jun 138468
LNU02000000 2003 Jul 138503
LNU02000000 2003 Aug 138137
LNU02000000 2003 Sep 137731
LNU02000000 2003 Oct 138619
LNU02000000 2003 Nov 138700
LNU02000000 2003 Dec 138556
LNU02000000 2003 Annual 137736
LNU02000000 2004 Jan 136924(1)
LNU02000000 2004 Feb 137384
LNU02000000 2004 Mar 137691
LNU02000000 2004 Apr 138423
LNU02000000 2004 May 138867
LNU02000000 2004 Jun 139861
LNU02000000 2004 Jul 140700

1 : Data affected by changes in population controls in January 2000, January 2003 and January 2004.

Looks like slow but steady gains, with a few short setbacks, to me.

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Some 'minor' reasons we 'lost' a million jobs

1) The Dot-com BUST
2) A small event known as Sept. 11, 2001
3) Seasonal variations in the labor market
4) Consolidations, mergers, and the like.

As AAO and others point out.. the BLS stats show a SLOW BUT STEADY *UPWARD* trend in jobs being established.

RECOVERY from the mid-1990's downturn takes TIME and we are NOW seeing the impact of the tax cuts taking effect. (BTW.. NY Times had an article (or it may have been Washington Post) where they admitted that tax cuts WORK!

So.. to EFA and the rest.. please.. if you are going bandy about figures about losing a million jobs or so.. then please be just as equitable to note the WHY of those loses and attribute them to the proper causes.

[n0ov]

[quote=K3FT,Aug. 23 2004,14:44]Some 'minor' reasons we 'lost' a million jobs

1) The Dot-com BUST
2) A small event known as Sept. 11, 2001
3) Seasonal variations in the labor market
4) Consolidations, mergers, and the like.

----------------------------
Add
5) Uncontrolled energy costs which scared the population.

6) Disposable income when to buy fuel (gas for cars, fuel for heaters, etc), less available to buy nice to haves. #Fewer sales, fewer orders. #Fewer orders, fewer people needed, etc.

7) Oh, don't forget our favoriate cost cutting step -- outsourcing. #You know, the gift that guarantees Americans will not get their jobs back once the economy kicks into gear again.

[n0ov]

Truth is who do we vote for.

A hot head who speaks straight, but the world does not trust.

Or a new comer with a questionable past, which NONE of us can trust.

[KA9VQF]

I would like to see steel produced in America again. Mr. Bush seems to have all the bunny huggers ducking for cover so maybe it will happen. After all he has people working on changing physics so BPL will work right?

Part of the reason my wife is laid off right now is because the company is having problems getting the steel parts made in China into the country. They found another source for the parts in Europe (Germany in think) that will be air lifted in soon as maybe but at extreme cost so they won’t be getting lots of them real soon.

They are also having problems getting the big rolls of steel to stamp into parts they need. The rolls used to come from Gary Indiana. That company has been severely cut back too. Now all their steel comes primarily from China.

[n0ov]

VQF

Instead of all the negative adds and finger pointing, I would love to see them give a straight answer to this one.

Hope your wife is able to go back to work soon.

73

[KG6JTB]

They used to teach that a 4% unemployment rate was factually zero (0) unemployment.

During the dot.com boom, we hit 4% and I can swear to you that people were employed who weren't worthy of the positions they held. Companies were hiring anyone that could breath. Headhunters called my office all the time. It was an absolute joke!

Now that we are headed towards 5%, probably sometime next year, I'm seeing signs of the late 90's again. People are jumping jobs more frequently and competitor companies are trying to steal people. Raises and bonuses are increasing.

At least this is true in So. California where the median home price is $465,000. Young people can only afford a house if the combind income is at least $90k and they qualify for an interest-only loan, which is a terrible way to go.

I'd like to think that 5% is probably true unemployment these days. If you can't find a job now, move elsewhere (not California) or learn a new skill. You can't keep a job for life anymore.

The president has little control over the economy.

Dave KG6JTB

[n0ov]

JTB

Hate to say this but I believe unemployment is going to be around 6 or 7% next year.

Energy prices to unstable.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KC0LNU @ Aug. 24 2004,14:58)]JTB

Hate to say this but I believe unemployment is going to be around 6 or 7% next year.

Energy prices to unstable.
Very true... in my job, I see utility rates from all over the country, and things are definitely in flux. One can hope that they will settle down soon, especially on a personal level. Maybe it is time to sign up for that equal billing from my electric company.

[N7AAO]

From the Los Angeles Times, 26 Aug 2004:

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON — President Bush heads into next week's Republican National Convention with voters moving slightly in his direction since July amid signs that Sen. John F. Kerry has been nicked by attacks on his service in Vietnam, a Times poll has found.

For the first time this year in a Times survey, Bush led Kerry in the presidential race, drawing 49% among registered voters, compared with 46% for the Democrat. In a Times poll just before the Democratic convention last month, Kerry held a 2-percentage-point advantage over Bush.

Link to full story (registration required) (http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-na-poll26aug26,1,891368.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

More interesting excerpts:
Quote[/b] ]Although a solid majority of Americans say they believe Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, the poll showed that the attacks on the senator from a group of Vietnam veterans criticizing his performance in combat and his antiwar protests at home have left some marks: Kerry suffered small but consistent erosion compared with July on questions relating to his Vietnam experience, his honesty and his fitness to serve as commander in chief.(emphasis mine.)

Quote[/b] ]With independent voters splitting evenly in the survey between the two men, one key to Bush's tentative new advantage was his greater success at consolidating his base. While 3% of voters who called themselves Republicans said they would vote for Kerry, Bush drew 15% of all Democrats, and 20% of Democrats who consider themselves moderate or conservative, the poll found.(again, emphasis mine.)

Smear campaign or not, it seems to be working!

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[n9yb]

If you would like to read more from Senator Kerry, read his book The New Solder. He has wanted to keep it out of print for a very long time.


The New Soldier (http://freekerrybook.com/)


Enjoy.

[N8CPA]

Yesterday, a senior advisor to the Bush campaign resigned over his connections to SBVFT. Let's see if Kerry purges his staff of connections to moveon.org, and other such PACs. If he doesn't do that, we could well see a '72 style rout in November. It might already be too late for JFK-ii to disinfect himself, if there's a significant bounce for Bush after RNC.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Aug. 26 2004,08:17)]Yesterday, a senior advisor to the Bush campaign resigned over his connections to SBVFT. #Let's see if Kerry purges his staff of connections to moveon.org, and other such PACs. #If he doesn't do that, we could well see a '72 style rout in November. #It might already be too late for JFK-ii to disinfect himself, if there's a significant bounce for Bush after RNC.
CPA, I am in the midst of some research into 527s, and how many support Bush and how many support Kerry. It should be quite interesting, when I get it completed. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

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[n9yb]

If I recall correctly, 7 out of 10 527s support Democrats.

Let us know what you find.

[W8EFA]

http://www.electionprojection.com/elections2004.html

Bush is losing AAO

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (n9yb @ Aug. 26 2004,09:22)]If I recall correctly, 7 out of 10 527s support Democrats.

Let us know what you find.
The primary source I am using is Opensecrets.org (http://www.opensecrets.org/), which covers all aspects of campaign funding. There's a section just on 527s, too.

Feel free to do some research of your own... it might be fun to compare notes.

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[KB9YCO]

Quote[/b] (KC0LNU @ Aug. 24 2004,15:50)]Truth is who do we vote for.
A hot head who speaks straight, but the world does not trust.
Or a new comer with a questionable past, which NONE of us can trust.
Boy, ain't that the truth. The only thing I'd say differently is that I don't know that many Americans are trusting either one (that includes President Bush) at this point. Just so you know, I have no numbers to back that statement, nor do I say it out of partisanship, it's just what I see. Sad state of affairs my friends.

[N7AAO]

More from the LA Times article I quoted earlier today (YCO, this speaks to your point, I think):

Quote[/b] ]Compared with the trend of modest erosion for Kerry in the poll, Bush either slightly gained ground or stabilized his position on several measures.

Bush's overall approval rating, which many analysts consider the best single gauge of his prospects in November, stood at 52%, with 47% disapproving; the numbers last month were 51% to 48%.

So it appears that while trust is still a problem for both candidates, Bush is moving in the right direction, although slowly.

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[K6UEY]

N7AAO,
David, In your research it is not as important as to how many 527's support each candidate but if they have direct ties. They are allowed to spend money to promote their choice, but must be totally indepenant of the candidate. That is why the Attorney for the Bush group resigned. He was working for the Bush campaign directly and was approached by the Swift boat Crew with a legal question,he said because he felt they had a believable and true message to get out he reluctantly resigned from the Bush organization,as it would have been illeagal to have both as clients.Now on the Kerry side they have 3 major 527's that have direct ties to the DNC,and have been active since last march or earlier and the fact they operate illeagaly under the IRS tax code does not seem to ring any bells for any one.That is part of the stink in the 527 organizations,the law is not being applied to both camps.I'm sure in your research you will discover the problem,the media is trying to low ball the fact that the Kerry group is not playing by the Rules,but it is building to a point,the bubble is about to burst.
Looking forward to seeing #what you turn up ...... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
POST EDIT:
The major 527's for Kerry with ties to the DNC I can't remember exact but one is the "Moveon" group another I think is called "ACTS" and there is another major one, that all have direct ties to the DNC......

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 26 2004,12:07)]N7AAO,
David, In your research it is not as important as to how many 527's support each candidate but if they have direct ties. They are allowed to spend money to promote their choice, but must be totally indepenant of the candidate. That is why the Attorney for the Bush group resigned. He was working for the Bush campaign directly and was approached by the Swift boat Crew with a legal question,he said because he felt they had a believable and true message to get out he reluctantly resigned from the Bush organization,as it would have been illeagal to have both as clients.Now on the Kerry side they have 3 major 527's that have direct ties to the DNC,and have been active since last march or earlier and the fact they operate illeagaly under the IRS tax code does not seem to ring any bells for any one.That is part of the stink in the 527 organizations,the law is not being applied to both camps.I'm sure in your research you will discover the problem,the media is trying to low ball the fact that the Kerry group is not playing by the Rules,but it is building to a point,the bubble is about to burst.
Looking forward to seeing #what you turn up ...... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
I will do my best to show ties, but I also want to show how hypocritical it is of the Kerry campaign to call for the shutdown of the 527s that are supporting Bush but not for the shutdown of the ones that support Kerry.

Bush has taken the moral high ground on this one, by calling for an end to all 527s.

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[w0dz]

Roger Hedgecock had a guy on today who was a gunner on Kerry's swift boat. No more "well, they weren't on the same boat so it's just hearsay." This guy was there. And he described Kerry as the most irresponsible officer he had ever had to work for. He blasted Kerry up one wall and down the other.

Kerry is an elitist snob who will say whatever is politically expedient. He has no morals whatsoever. His minions have a lot of gall accusing Bush of being a liar, when he practically invented the word. He makes me sick.

Americans for Democratic Action, the radical leftist group from the '60's, rates Kerry 92%, making him the most liberal senator in the Senate.

But methinks the liberals and Dems aren't so much wanting Kerry as NOT wanting Bush. I think it's because they perceive Bush as having lied about Iraq in order to avenge the attempted assassination of his father, who was a sitting President at the time (in and of itself a cause for war). However, one would hope that even Kerry would take action if presented with the data that Bush was given, so it's hard to see any lying going on.

Look at it this way: You are president. Putin tells you Saddam is developing WMDs. Saddam has a history of lying and deceit. He has killed hundreds of thousands of people. He has attacked neighboring countries. Every intelligence agency, including foreign ones, is telling you that there's a threat there (maybe not to our Homeland, but certainly to American interests and Americans overseas). The U.N. has passed a resolution demanding he come clean. He refuses to allow inspectors to see sites of potential weapons violations until he has had time to clean them up. You smell a rat. You can take decisive pre-emptive action (Plan A), thus potentially averting catastrophes like 9/11 but risking the wrath of anti-war activists, or (Plan B) you can try to talk it out ad nauseum with the U.N. and hope for a resolution, while giving time for another 9/11 to take shape, in which case you will be criticized for not taking pre-emptive action, but you can act sympathetic and console the nation about these cowardly acts.

You choose plan A (preceded by attempts to get the U.N. to take stronger action, which they don't do because many of the interested countries have interests in Iraq) which ends up:

* freeing 50 million people

* costing 1000 American MILITARY deaths - possibly the smallest number in history for an operation of this magnitude (soldiers who were WILLING to die to protect this country, as opposed to the protesters)

* capturing a tyrant

* bringing Libya to the bargaining table

* ending the speculation that "it's all about oil"

* bringing Democracy to an Arab country - which they said couldn't be done (also effectively ending speculation that "it's all about American imperialism")

* unfortunately, pissing off about a billion Muslims who don't like Christians or Jews (hmmm, wasn't WWII fought in part to eliminate anti-Semitism?).

WWJD (What would John [Kerry/Edwards] Do)? Plan B. And we'd have had another 9/11 by now, because, for those of you who may have missed it, we are AT WAR with radical Muslims who have declared war on us and promising that they will eradicate all of us and establish a fundamentalist Islamic state in the U.S.

We are faced with something that is apropos for our video game culture -- having to fight a war against a "virtual" country. There are no rules. It takes true leaders to make the rules. Kerry is a consensus-based follower, not a leader. Bush may have faults, but he is a leader. The choice is pretty darned clear to me.

[n0ov]

w0dz

Well said

[N7AAO]

The Swifties just hit Lieutenant (Junior Grade) John F. Kerry, USN, hard... again:

Quote[/b] ]STEVE GARDNER: # “I spent more time on John Kerry’s boat than any other crew member.

John Kerry hasn’t been honest, he’s been deceitful.

John Kerry claims that he spent Christmas in 1968 in Cambodia and that is categorically a lie.

Not in December, not in January.

We were never in Cambodia on a secret mission, ever.”
--from TV ad by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (http://www.swiftvets.com/), featuring the foregunner on PCF-44, which at one time was commanded by Lt. (J.G.) John F. Kerry.

"They didn't serve on the boat!"

Can't use that excuse anymore, liberals, it has been show to be 100% pure Bravo Sierra.

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[KG6JTB]

Quote[/b] ]hmmm, wasn't WWII fought in part to eliminate anti-Semitism?).

Well, no. Because if this were the case, we would have acted much quicker when American Jews, like my grandfather, petitioned congress to take action against Hitler in the mid 1930's.

Also, we sent a boat loads of Jew's trying to get into the U.S. from Europe back due to our own racist immigration policies. Many of those people ended up in concentration camps.

The fact is, most Americans had no idea what was going on in Europe, and certainly would have not gone to war to save Jews from the concentration camps- or to stop genocide of any particular "non-white" or "non-Christian" people. America was way too isolationalist back then. People just didn't worry about those things.

America has never fought against anti-Semitism, but has supported Israel for 57 year faithfully. And perhaps now, American needs to revisit those ties.

Dave
KG6JTB

[K3UD]

And still more fuel for the

fire....Who really was on the boat? (http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-nws-novak27.html)

73
George
K3UD

[N7AAO]

That's a good one, George!

[K3UD]

And still more napalm headed this way:

But Wait! There's More! (http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.htmlhttp://)

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 27 2004,12:30)]And still more napalm headed this way:

But Wait! There's More! (http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.htmlhttp://)
UD, your link is broken.

Here is a good link to the story UD refers to above. (http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html)

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[n0ov]

Whether Kerry deserved the medals is not important.
Just election year mud slinging.

What really scares me about Kerry is his voting record after he got past the Anti-American Vietnam crap.

Has he stood by anything besides tax hikes?

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KC0LNU @ Aug. 27 2004,13:41)]Has he stood by anything besides tax hikes?
I haven't looked into his voting record in-depth yet (I plan to in the next couple of weeks), but I would be willing to bet that he's stood behind every pay raise for members of Congress. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[K0RGR]

AAO - you cannot equate Willie Horton and this Vietnam drivel with a call by the Democrats to protest the tax cuts. This is NOT a discussion of 527's. It's about Mr. Bush's long-standing ploy of attacking veterans. It would appear that a great many million people don't like that one bit. Initially, Mr. Bush seems to have gained in the polls. I think there is going to be a backlash once people find out where this is really coming from.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 27 2004,14:09)]It's about Mr. Bush's long-standing ploy of attacking veterans.
Please provide specific examples of George W. Bush attacking veterans.

I can come up with lots of examples of John F. Kerry attacking veterans, going back to 1971!

Are you sure you want to open that debate?

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[K6UEY]

N7AAO,
David, I think it was a typo by KØRGR,I think he meant the attacking by Kerry,he is the one who has attacked his own comrades in arms.I don't recall seeing any thing that Bush has ever said a hint against the troops,and we know the media would grab that ball and run with it ,if it were ever even hinted at. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 27 2004,18:46)]N7AAO,
David, I think it was a typo by KØRGR,I think he meant the attacking by Kerry,he is the one who has attacked his own comrades in arms.I don't recall seeing any thing that Bush has ever said a hint against the troops,and we know the media would grab that ball and run with it ,if it were ever even hinted at. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
I dunno, I have seen far too many falsehoods out of the Kerry camp this year to dismiss that they might want to claim Bush was attacking vets.

If RGR did mis-speak (mis-type?) and will admit it himself, I'll forgive him, tho. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

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[K3UD]

With all the controversy concerning Kerry's medals and citations, and now with the Department of the Navy pointing out that there is at least one decoration on Kerry's website that is not something he earned, and with John Lehman wondering how a citation that Kerry has with his signature on it when he says he never signed it.

I thought it might be interesting to find out what John Kerry's take on Admiral Boorda, the guy who committed suicide in 1996 over a dispute about a ribbon he wore but did not earn.

What I found (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40188)

As you can see, he was rather opinionated of the subject.

73
George
K3UD

[W3MIV]

Why won't the esteemed Senator permit the release of his military records?

Could it be that he doesn't want anyone to read his fitness reports?

His commanding officer from that time is now one of his most vocal opponents.

Think about it.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 28 2004,09:02)]With all the controversy concerning Kerry's medals and citations, and now with the Department of the Navy pointing out that there is at least one decoration on Kerry's website that is not something he earned, and with John Lehman wondering how a citation that Kerry has with his signature on it when he says he never signed it.

I thought it might be interesting to find out what John Kerry's take on Admiral Boorda, the guy who committed suicide in 1996 over a dispute about a ribbon he wore but did not earn.

What I found (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40188)

As you can see, he was rather opinionated of the subject.

73
George
K3UD
For more on Kerry's apparently fraudulent combat "V," see this page (http://kerry-04.com/war/citations.php), which includes commentary from Henry Mark Holzer, Professor Emeritus at Brooklyn Law School, and Erika Holzer, a lawyer.

It's not only the "V" that raises questions, but the fact that Lt. J.G. Kerry's Silver Star has not one citation, as is the norm, but three, which makes it highly unusual and suspicious.

Remember, Kerry told us to judge him on his record, and his Silver Star is part of his record.

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[W8EFA]

AAO, UEY,UD,MIV - You guys are just too much

This is pathetic to question a V on a medal. #Ridiculous to question that 1 out of 3 purple hearts didn't bleed enough. Asinine to question "only" 4 months in Vietnam.

The simple facts are -

1. Kerry volunteered and saw active combat in Vietnam

2. He received 2 medals and 3 purple hearts and was decorated a war hero. #You can't pay for medals in the service. #It is a fact he turned his boat around while taking enemy fire, pulled another soldier out of the water from another boat and saved his life.

Yea there are some soldiers who hate him for protesting the war when he got back (The Swift Boat "Veterans:). #It has nothing to do with what happened in Vietnam, it's all about his protesting after.

Meanwhile Bush gets his Daddy to get him in the National Guard to get out of going to Vietnam and carouses around partying not showing up for duty, not taking physicals because of drugs etc.

Previusly I posted the actual signed document admonishing Bush for not reporting for a physical and threatening active duty.

If I were a Republican I would move on to another issue. #However you have no accomplishments in this administration to talk about, so you need to attack the other opponent.

Wake Up - think about this. #Greece and Ireland and France etc. all loved America 10 years ago. #These are all powerful 1st rate countries that are now digusted with the Bush Administration's world politics. #Do you all really think the rest of the world is stupid?

I already know your response (The hell with them, I'm an Umerican).

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,13:38)]Greece and Ireland and France etc. all loved America 10 years ago. #These are all powerful 1st rate countries that are now digusted with the Bush Administration's world politics.
What planet do you live on?

[K3UD]

EFA

I seem to remember something about France under Charles de Gaulle pulling out of NATO and dismantling the bases established by the US in the process. I also seem to remember when we went after Quadaffi we were not allowed to use the air route over France. They seemingly have not been a friend of the US since about 1958.

My problem with Kerry stems from several issues.

1. He admitted to personal commission of atrocities in front congress.

2. He leveled a general accusation of atrocities at the whole body of armed forces who were in Vietnam.

3. He speaks on Admiral Boorda concerning a ribbon he was wearing, telling various reporters that the Admiral is not fit to lead.

4. He repeats his admission of atrocities (and embellished them) during and interview with Tim Russert, telling Russert that he was orders to do it, but never naming the person who gave the order.

5. He demands the Rumsfeld resign in the face of of the Baghdad prison scandal, but himself admitted to much worse, and for some reason, that's ok

Politics are politics and I actually consider Kerry somewhat of a moderate and when the chips are down he actually might act in the interest of the US. However, his admissions and judgements in the past have, in my book, posed serious questions concerning his ability to lead.

I am sure that you can find a number of points that you feel disqualifies Bush, but that is what makes a horse race.

73
George
K3UD

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,10:38)]1. Kerry volunteered and saw active combat in Vietnam
Yes, Kerry volunteered. But, it is worth asking, what did he volunteer for?

If you look at the fitness reports released by Lt. J.G. Kerry on his own campaign website (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf), the first one has an interesting entry. The first line says, "Kerry, John F, Ens (abbreviation for Ensign), USNR"

"USNR" is the acronym for United States Naval Reserve.

In other words, Kerry did NOT volunteer for the Navy, he volunteered for the Naval Reserve!

Most military folks will tell you that the Naval Reserve is very comparable to the National Guard or Air National Guard. My late father was also a Naval Reserve member, transferring to it after serving in the active duty Navy during the Korean war (as an enlisted man, not as an officer), and he told me many times that the Guard and the Reserves are very similar... in fact, most of the time the Guard and Reserves are spoken of together.

In other words, John F. Kerry volunteering for the Naval Reserve is very comparable to George W. Bush volunteering for the Air National Guard.

Remember, Kerry said to judge him by his record, and all of this is based on the fitness reports he has on his own campaign website.

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[W5HTW]

The fact is with all of this, that Kerry has chosen to make his military service, the centerpiece of his campaign, and the focus of his convention speech. He is the one who made sure this would be scrutinized closely. It seems he must have assumed he could state, in effect, "I was a war hero" and that would be the end of it, as though no-one would dare question it. But by putting it out there, he left it open to investigation, confirmation, criticism. That's politics, no matter which party.

In addition, his military career did not end after four months in Vietnam. So assuming everything he said about those four months is absolutely true, we are left with the remainder of his military service to debate. It's like the CEO of a company who actually ran the company well for four months, then suddenly began embezzling from the funds, cheating employees and customers, and now, years later, he wants you to remeber only the months that he ran it well. Or perhaps it's like an apple pie. The first slice is good, but somehow way, way too much salt got into the rest of it, and it is garbage. Is the pie good?

John Kerry asks us to vote for him as Commander-in-Chief, based upon four months of his life. That just doesn't hack it, especially when the next months were diametrically opposed. We can't just "X" those months out and say his military service is unblemished.

Aside from all that, there are serious doubts about the truth of his four months! So even THAT slice of the pie has a bit too much salt, maybe quite a bit.

Yet this is the experience Kerry wants us to use to warrant voting for him for President. He doesn't talk about his Senatorial experience. What he is offering is not enough.

What happened on the Swift boats is going to be up to the varying memories of a lot of different people, and we may never know the truth. But if I am going to vote for a man for President, it is not going to be based on four months, good or bad, of his life. There has to be more.

And there isn't.

Another question remains. Who has the most experience as Commander-in-Chief? Who has 'been there, done that?" It's more than four months.

There are many issues. Some of GW Bush's issues I vehemently disagree with. Such as open borders, offering Mexican illegals Social Security benefits. Or amnesty, or any benefits of US citizens. And I did not support the invasion - at least not at the time it occurred - of Iraq. I referred to it then as "Bush's Vietnam."

I'm glad to have had Bush admit there was a 'miscalculation' regarding the war's aftermath.

I heartily disagree with anything resembling school voucher programs. But I do think the tax cuts were a good thing, though they didn't affect me much! And no president, neither Bush nor Kerry nor Clinton could affect the movement of US jobs off shore. That was a result of pricing our labor out of the competition. It's business; when labor is too costly, you find cheaper labor. Has nothing to do with politics. We cannot legislate business to remain in America. It has to remain here due to good economics, and the outflow of business to foreign shores began in earnest in the mid 1990's. One initial stepping stone was NAFTA. NAFTA is a massive failure, and the World Trade Organization is probably far worse.

But Kerry offers nothing that is better. Some of it may be as good, but I already have 'as good' on those issues, and better on others. He cannot demand business remain in America; business goes where it can make money. The climate to make money must change, but we cannot return to the Carter concept of wage and price controls. Unless, of course, we want to give up capitalism and become socialist.

We also have the issue of Kerry attacking Bush for the 527 ads, while the vast majority of money for 527s has been spent in favor of Kerry, and he has not complained once about that! Kerry has not said one negative word about Michael Moore's film! He hasn't even mentioned MoveOn dot org. That alone, makes me distrust and dislike the man. But there's so much more.

Ed

[W8EFA]

Comparison of War Records (http://www.mojones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html)

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,15:35)]Comparison of War Records (http://www.mojones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html)
Yeah, Mother Jones, now there is an unbiased news source. [/sarcasm]

Try again, please.

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[K6UEY]

I guess I missed the column where the experience as "Commander-in-Chief" is compared.And I noticed some of the information in the Bush column was not up to date,it still showed the Democratic Published lies as factual,but that is to be expected,probably just missed in the proof reading.
As a member of the ground Crew supporting the Convair F-102 when the aircraft first went into service,I thought the entry about Bush using the F-102 to ferry agriculture plants around the country was quite and amusing touch. Our pilots used to complain there was not room for an extra flight suit,when they flew cross country.But I guess that is what constitues a good writer,don't let a few small facts get in the way of amplifing the point. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB1GYQ]

I just love this one...Quote[/b] ]April 23, 1971:
Kerry helps to organize a huge anti-war protest outside Congress, earning a place on president Richard Nixon's "enemies' list." He joins a group of Vietnam veterans who throw medals and campaign ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol. - from MoJo news (http://www.mojones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html)

For someone who didn't seem to care about commendation he sure is boasting now. Flip - flop. (what else is new)

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,16:02)]I guess I missed the column where the experience as "Commander-in-Chief" is compared.And I noticed some of the information in the Bush column was not up to date,it still showed the Democratic Published lies as factual,but that is to be expected,probably just missed in the proof reading.
As a member of the ground Crew supporting the Convair F-102 when the aircraft first went into service,I thought the entry about Bush using the F-102 to ferry agriculture plants around the country was quite and amusing touch. Our pilots used to complain there was not room for an extra flight suit,when they flew cross country.But I guess that is what constitues a good writer,don't let a few small facts get in the way of amplifing the point. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Facts? Who needs facts? Whatever the High and Mighty Commisars of Public Opinion tell us, that is what is true... never mind if it actually matches reality. [/sarcasm]

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[K6UEY]

I don't know how true it is ,this is an election year, but I read that the incident of throwing the medals, Kerry did not actually throw his medals, he threw some one else's medals,I guess he figured he might need his medals for the campaign later,since he appears to have nothing else going for him. It looks like he has been planning this little fiasco, for quite some time,just could not get all the facts in a row at once. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,16:31)]I don't know how true it is ,this is an election year, but I read that the incident of throwing the medals, Kerry did not actually throw his medals, he threw some one else's medals,I guess he figured he might need his medals for the campaign later,since he appears to have nothing else going for him. It looks like he has been planning this little fiasco, for quite some time,just could not get all the facts in a row at once. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Actually, Kerry has said:

* He threw "six, seven, eight, nine" medals over the fence (no ribbons).

* He "took the ribbons off his chest" and then threw them over the fence.

* He threw two other veterans' medals over the fence.

Pretty soon, he'll be claiming he and his buddies threw his swift boat over the fence.

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[K6UEY]

"And the crew under my Leadership as swiftboat Captain threw the swiftboat over the Capital Fence, all the while dodging incoming enemy rounds of rifle fire and Grenade launchers." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,16:50)]"And the crew under my Leadership as swiftboat Captain threw the swiftboat over the Capital Fence, all the while dodging incoming enemy rounds of rifle fire and Grenade launchers." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Did the Secret Service have grenade launchers in the late 60s or early 70s?

Heck, do they have them now?

We need a Congressional investigation into the Secret Service using grenade launchers against the brave men of our Navy!

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[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,19:54)]Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,16:50)]"And the crew under my Leadership as swiftboat Captain threw the swiftboat over the Capital Fence, all the while dodging incoming enemy rounds of rifle fire and Grenade launchers." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
...
We need a Congressional investigation into the Secret Service using grenade launchers against the brave men of our Navy!

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I wouldn't say using them against the unnamed, but known, person is using them against "the brave men of our Navy".

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 28 2004,16:58)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,19:54)]Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,16:50)]"And the crew under my Leadership as swiftboat Captain threw the swiftboat over the Capital Fence, all the while dodging incoming enemy rounds of rifle fire and Grenade launchers." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
...
We need a Congressional investigation into the Secret Service using grenade launchers against the brave men of our Navy!

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I wouldn't say using them against the unnamed, but known, person is using them against "the brave men of our Navy".
GYQ, I was mimicking what that unnamed but well known person might say after claiming to have thrown a swift boat over the fence, dodging bullets and grenades. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K6UEY]

I think the Treasury Dept. authorized grenade launchers to counter the Jane Fonda crowd.As witnessed they had no bounds to what they would do against our country!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB1GYQ]

I want to see the video tape!

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 28 2004,17:00)]I want to see the video tape!
As soon as it gets out of the CGI lab. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,20:00)]I think the Treasury Dept. authorized grenade launchers to counter the Jane Fonda crowd.As witnessed they had no bounds to what they would do against our country!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Kerry was part of that crowd......

Not a good idea to use explosives... each little piece might grow into a whole enemy... flame throwers would be better.

[K3UD]

I guess all I really needed to know about the guy when I heard that he blamed his Secret Service agents for his falling off a snowboard.

I guess this thread is close to the end, Been Fun http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


73
George
K3UD

[N7AAO]

Now, gentlemen, we don't want to get too outrageous with the political rhetoric. Someone might use it as a club to beat us over the head with.

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[K6UEY]

I don't think they could use flame throwers,after the enviormentalists installed filters to eliminate the noxious emissions the flame throwers were no longer viable,and any attempt to use them was backed by a threat to withhold funds from their budget for violating envoirmental rules. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[k6ncx]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,13:42)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,10:38)]1. Kerry volunteered and saw active combat in Vietnam
Yes, Kerry volunteered. But, it is worth asking, what did he volunteer for?

If you look at the fitness reports released by Lt. J.G. Kerry on his own campaign website (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf), the first one has an interesting entry. The first line says, "Kerry, John F, Ens (abbreviation for Ensign), USNR"

"USNR" is the acronym for United States Naval Reserve.

In other words, Kerry did NOT volunteer for the Navy, he volunteered for the Naval Reserve!

Most military folks will tell you that the Naval Reserve is very comparable to the National Guard or Air National Guard. My late father was also a Naval Reserve member, transferring to it after serving in the active duty Navy during the Korean war (as an enlisted man, not as an officer), and he told me many times that the Guard and the Reserves are very similar... in fact, most of the time the Guard and Reserves are spoken of together.

In other words, John F. Kerry volunteering for the Naval Reserve is very comparable to George W. Bush volunteering for the Air National Guard.
Nice try, no cigar. My father's WWII dogtags read 'USNR' which distinguished him from "regular Navy." Mainly it meant that he could expect his commission to continue past the end of the war.

Spin how you may, serving overseas is still different from serving occasionally (or, as the case may be, not showing up) in the next state over.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (k6ncx @ Aug. 28 2004,17:27)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,13:42)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,10:38)]1. Kerry volunteered and saw active combat in Vietnam
Yes, Kerry volunteered. But, it is worth asking, what did he volunteer for?

If you look at the fitness reports released by Lt. J.G. Kerry on his own campaign website (http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Fitness_Reports.pdf), the first one has an interesting entry. The first line says, "Kerry, John F, Ens (abbreviation for Ensign), USNR"

"USNR" is the acronym for United States Naval Reserve.

In other words, Kerry did NOT volunteer for the Navy, he volunteered for the Naval Reserve!

Most military folks will tell you that the Naval Reserve is very comparable to the National Guard or Air National Guard. My late father was also a Naval Reserve member, transferring to it after serving in the active duty Navy during the Korean war (as an enlisted man, not as an officer), and he told me many times that the Guard and the Reserves are very similar... in fact, most of the time the Guard and Reserves are spoken of together.

In other words, John F. Kerry volunteering for the Naval Reserve is very comparable to George W. Bush volunteering for the Air National Guard.
Nice try, no cigar. My father's WWII dogtags read 'USNR' which distinguished him from "regular Navy." Mainly it meant that he could expect his commission to continue past the end of the war.

Spin how you may, serving overseas is still different from serving occasionally (or, as the case may be, not showing up) in the next state over.
It's not spin. Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, not the active-service Navy. Period.

I think you're the one spinning here.

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[k6ncx]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:29)]It's not spin. Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, not the active-service Navy. Period.

I think you're the one spinning here.

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And yet there he was, on active duty. Just like my late father. And unlike our current President. That's no spin, just facts which you seem to find inconvenient.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (k6ncx @ Aug. 28 2004,17:32)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:29)]It's not spin. Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, not the active-service Navy. Period.

I think you're the one spinning here.

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And yet there he was, on active duty. Just like my late father. And unlike our current President. That's no spin, just facts which you seem to find inconvenient.
We are not talking about whose reserve/guard unit was called to active duty (as George W. Bush's could have been at any time), so please quit trying to change the topic.

John Forbes Kerry volunteered for the Naval Reserves, not the regular Navy. That is attested to by the forms he himself has released.

End of story.

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[K6UEY]

K3UD,
Well good night George, I guess I am the one guility of pulling the thread off course,( I never was in the Navy I put my 8 years in the Air Force,and we always had some one willing to tell us where to GO! ) I just got tired of seeing the same old disproven Democratic lies repeated to infinitude as retroaction to the facts about Kerry. You would think this late in the campaign the DNC would sit down and think up new lies and offer a little variety,it is not like they are incapable,as a matter of fact they are known for their telling of whoppers, maybe they are busy discounting all of Kerry's facts to bother. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,17:36)]K3UD,
Well good night George, I guess I am the one guility of pulling the thread off course,( I never was in the Navy I put my 8 years in the Air Force,and we always had some one willing to tell us where to GO! ) I just got tired of seeing the same old disproven Democratic lies repeated to infinitude as retroaction to the facts about Kerry. You would think this late in the campaign the DNC would sit down and think up new lies and offer a little variety,it is not like they are incapable,as a matter of fact they are known for their telling of whoppers, maybe they are busy discounting all of Kerry's facts to bother. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Before ya go, UEY, wanna help me respond to the latest Democratic spin-meister here, as one who did actually serve?

Oh, whatcha think of the new quote in my signature?

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[k6ncx]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:36)]Quote[/b] (k6ncx @ Aug. 28 2004,17:32)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:29)]It's not spin. Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, not the active-service Navy. Period.

I think you're the one spinning here.

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And yet there he was, on active duty. Just like my late father. And unlike our current President. That's no spin, just facts which you seem to find inconvenient.
We are not talking about whose reserve/guard unit was called to active duty (as George W. Bush's could have been at any time), so please quit trying to change the topic.

John Forbes Kerry volunteered for the Naval Reserves, not the regular Navy. That is attested to by the forms he himself has released.

End of story.

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There you go, spinning, spinning, spinning....

Facts are just so inconvenient, aren't they?

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (k6ncx @ Aug. 28 2004,17:45)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:36)]Quote[/b] (k6ncx @ Aug. 28 2004,17:32)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,17:29)]It's not spin. Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, not the active-service Navy. Period.

I think you're the one spinning here.

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And yet there he was, on active duty. Just like my late father. And unlike our current President. That's no spin, just facts which you seem to find inconvenient.
We are not talking about whose reserve/guard unit was called to active duty (as George W. Bush's could have been at any time), so please quit trying to change the topic.

John Forbes Kerry volunteered for the Naval Reserves, not the regular Navy. That is attested to by the forms he himself has released.

End of story.

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There you go, spinning, spinning, spinning....

Facts are just so inconvenient, aren't they?
Yeah, I am sticking to the same story every message... that is sure spinning.

John Forbes Kerry did not sign up for the Navy, he signed up for the Naval Reserves. Period.

Where is the spin?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

p.s. Thank you for allowing me to repeat that point over and over for the lurkers who are reading but not posting. Please, keep it up!

[K3UD]

UEY

Nah, I thought almost everything that can be said has been said, but Wait! it gets better. I don't think this thread could ever be pulled off course.

73
George
K3UD

[K6UEY]

N7AAO,
David,I don't know too much about the Navy rules,although the Defense Dept. rules are recognised by the USN and all the services operate under the rule following any combat situation those who served are subject to recal and/or extension of normal enlistment for the duration. Although there may be a rule that applies to the active as well as Reserves the "R" designator stands for RESERVES as opposed to Regular Military.
As far as serving State side I served my TOTAL enlistment state side,even though I volunteered every chance I got for overseas duty.Out of school #we had 3 choices of duty,I chose" Formosa" at that time it looked like we were about to have action there, my second choice was "FarEast Command" my 3rd choice was Any where in the "Pacific Command". I was assigned to the West Coast of the US in California,where I served my total enlistment and mustered out there.I was told repeatedly that the needs of the military was always first choice.Does that mean I didn't serve my country because I was state side ? I hope the hell not,citizens like to sleep undisturbed at night but some one has to watch the store. That is the job of the Regulars,the Reserves,and the National Guard, stationed HERE in the US. My squadron had just come back from Korea where they Distinguished themselves,when I joined them,but they were then assigned stateside duty.I served with the #"82nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron" my full enlistment,but it was protecting the West Coast Of America, with our pilots flying the Convair F102 Fighter/Interceptor, a job that was also necessary for the citizens to sleep at night. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif BTW that was a 24/7 job,our pilots had 3 combat ready aircraft in the air tracking a bogey with in a 5 minute warning.Not too bad a job for the 1950's. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,18:19)]N7AAO,
David,I don't know too much about the Navy rules,although the Defense Dept. rules are recognised by the USN and all the services operate under the rule following any combat situation those who served are subject to recal and/or extension of normal enlistment for the duration. Although there may be a rule that applies to the active as well as Reserves the "R" designator stands for RESERVES as opposed to Regular Military.
As far as serving State side I served my TOTAL enlistment state side,even though I volunteered every chance I got for overseas duty.Out of school we had 3 choices of duty,I chose" Formosa" at that time it looked like we were about to have action there, my second choice was "FarEast Command" my 3rd choice was Any where in the "Pacific Command". I was assigned to the West Coast of the US in California,where I served my total enlistment and mustered out there.I was told repeatedly that the needs of the military was always first choice.Does that mean I didn't serve my country because I was state side ? I hope the hell not,citizens like to sleep undisturbed at night but some one has to watch the store. That is the job of the Regulars,the Reserves,and the National Guard, stationed HERE in the US. My squadron had just come back from Korea where they Distinguished themselves,when I joined them,but they were then assigned stateside duty.I served with the "82nd Fighter Interceptor Squadron" my full enlistment,but it was protecting the West Coast Of America, with our pilots flying the Convair F102 Fighter/Interceptor, a job that was also necessary for the citizens to sleep at night. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif BTW that was a 24/7 job,our pilots had 3 combat ready aircraft in the air tracking a bogey with in a 5 minute warning.Not too bad a job for the 1950's. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Thanks for the facts on those that served in Guard and Reserves.

I wish to make very clear, I am not condemning Kerry for enlisting in the Naval Reserves. He did volunteer to serve. However, so did George W. Bush.

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[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 28 2004,15:40)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 28 2004,15:35)]Comparison of War Records (http://www.mojones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html)
Yeah, Mother Jones, now there is an unbiased news source. [/sarcasm]

Try again, please.

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Do you want to point out what fact is not true in the comparison of service records? You might not like the source but the facts are accurate.

Do i need to post the actual records again of bush being grounded and missing his physical?

[K6UEY]

WB8EFA,
No it is not necessary to post the records we all have read them and understand them,therin is the problem,
the way it works in the Air Force and also Air #National Guard,if you are transfered out of a particular unit you are no longer required to report to that unit.That Physical you keep refering to, that he supposedly missed was a flight readiness physical,which he would be required to have to continue flying with that unit.He transfered out of that unit ,off of flying status,with the new unit so the fact he did not take the flight physical is of NO consequence. #He did not report ,so he was not AWOL, since he was not required to report,seems pretty cut and dry to me but maybe difficult for others to grasp. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 28 2004,22:41)]WB8EFA,
No it is not necessary to post the records we all have read them and understand them,therin is the problem,
the way it works in the Air Force and also Air #National Guard,if you are transfered out of a particular unit you are no longer required to report to that unit.That Physical you keep refering to, that he supposedly missed was a flight readiness physical,which he would be required to have to continue flying with that unit.He transfered out of that unit ,off of flying status,with the new unit so the fact he did not take the flight physical is of NO consequence. #He did not report ,so he was not AWOL, since he was not required to report,seems pretty cut and dry to me but maybe difficult for others to grasp. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
UEY

That is not the way I understood it. You mean his commanding officer reprimanded him and he was not even in the unit?

How do you explain the letter from GWB saying he was sorry and he will do better? Why would he send that if it wasn't necessary. Have you seen that?

I think everyone understands GWB was pretty much a wild part animal screw off in his earlier years though I am not sure we should hold that against him now.

You can spin it any way you want but Kerry definetely had the better service record.

I would like to see the issues be current - not what happened thirty years ago for both of them.

[K6UEY]

WB8EFA,
OH!! I agree the current record is the record that makes the difference,of course the last 4 years as Commander -in-Chief,Bush has shown he is fully capeable of discharging his duties, and he has the cooperation and support of his troops.He proved in the 9/11 situation he can take charge, even in an emergency and lead the country on the right course.His efforts in the 9/11 aftermath have evoked world wide praise for his actions.
His policy of saying what he means and meaning what he say's in my estimation has caused our enemy's to stop and take a second look. We are not the the whinning pushovers that they had imagined.When his job in Iraq is finally finished, we will once again be thought of as the world power that we have become, and we can rightfully take our place as a world leader once again.
As to Kerry, in my estimation he had to go back to his military career, as questionable as it may be ,since he has done nothing more than protest with Jane Fonda since. His time in the Senate, what little he was there to vote he voted against sending armored vests to the troops and several other bills to supply the much needed material to the troops. He has the highest rating by Socialist's groups #of any in the Senate, even considered to the left of Ted Kennedy.It would seem the only thing he seems to be good at is marrying Rich Widows, and some even question that practice.
Once in awhile a man will strike me as one who can not be trusted, and this with out even meeting him in person. Kerry is one of those people, some thing in my gut tells me this is NOT the man to TRUST in the Whitehouse.
With all that is hanging in the balance on this election, that being the future of this country for the next few decades, it would be utterly foolish to gamble and change horses in mid stream, and especially with Kerry and the tremendous doubt about him that lingers over his head. # # # # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
The word on the street was the DNC needed a loser so that Hillary would not have to run against a Democratic incumbent in the 2008 election,well I think they picked the right man....... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bigg