Senator Kerry on overseas deployment

[N7AAO]

January 22, 2004 (emphasis mine):
Quote[/b] ]I've also said responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe.

And I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world, where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries. Full transcript here (http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/primdeb/deb012204tr.html).

April 14, 2004 (emphasis mine):
Quote[/b] ]The overall effort of a president right now ought to be really to try to find ways to reduce the overexposure, in a sense, of America's commitments. A proper approach to the Korean peninsula, for instance, should include the deployment of troops, the unresolved issues of the 1950s and ultimately, hopefully, could result in the reduction of American presence, ultimately. Those are the kinds of things that we ought to be trying to achieve in our foreign policy. Full transcript here (http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=33804).

August 18, 2004 (emphasis still mine):
Quote[/b] ]"Why are we unilaterally withdrawing 12,000 troops from the Korean Peninsula at the very time we are negotiating with North Korea -- a country that really has nuclear weapons?" he said. Full story here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/18/kerry.ap/).

Looks to me like Senator Kerry says if elected President, he is going to withdraw troops from Germany and North Korea; then when President Bush does reduce the numbers of troops in Germany and North Korea, Senator Kerry critizices him for it.

You could say Senator Kerry is criticizing President Bush for taking Kerry's own advice!

Ahh, the sound of Democrats in election season... flip... flop... flip... flop...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[nx6d]

AAO:

It may have escaped your notice, but the political trolling has pretty much stopped around here.

If you're looking for a response to your nonsense, you won't get it from me out of respect for everyone else here on the forum.

WX7B

WX7B,
thanks for that...

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Aug. 21 2004,08:27)]If you're looking for a response to your nonsense, you won't get it from me out of respect for everyone else here on the forum.
Well, you did respond... by calling it nonsense.

But that's not the point... I just wanted to make the undecided members here aware of Kerry's statements on this issue.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KA8NCR]

You mean it's not okay for a Republican to flip-flop?

Veterans Against Kerry (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0820041kerry1.html)

I think this effectively puts to bed the whole Swiftboat nonsense.

[N7AAO]

Who said anything about swift boats? This is about Senator Kerry's comments in 2004 about troop deployments overseas.

Sorry, not gonna distract me this time. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,08:56)]Who said anything about swift boats? This is about Senator Kerry's comments in 2004 about troop deployments overseas.

Sorry, not gonna distract me this time. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
No, you're nattering-on about flip flops which makes my post right on target.

It's not okay for Kerry to flip-flop, but it's okay for his detractors to do so? Really, the whole flip-flop issue is laughable. I thought that's what making informed decisions was all about; examining the issues and being able to adjust to changes.

Bush on the other hand will ride the horse right off the cliff.

[N7AAO]

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is not in any way connected to the Bush campaign. The ads themselves say so, and so does the White House:

Quote[/b] ]President Bush's re-election campaign distanced itself from the ad. Campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said the president's re-election effort "has never and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam. The election will be about the future." Full article here (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.veterans/).

That dawg won't hunt.

And you still haven't commented on Kerry's well-documented flip flop above... if it is so wrong for Bush to flip-flop occasionally (which has not been conclusively proven yet), why is it just fine for Kerry to do it? Wrong for Republicans, but right for Democrats?

Another dawg that won't hunt.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[nx6d]

AAO:

Don't you have a windmill to tilt at somewhere?

(Back to editing my website...)

WX7B

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Aug. 21 2004,10:08)]AAO:

Don't you have a windmill to tilt at somewhere?

(Back to editing my website...)

WX7B
No windmills in eastern Washington, sorry.

Thanks for the response to a thread you already said you weren't going to respond to, tho!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[nx6d]

Oh, ok...you sure got me with THAT one...

You seem to enjoy conflict. I'm not going to continue to enable you. I shouldn't have taken the bait on your initial post, and I'm sorry I did.

WX7B

[W8EFA]

AAO

Look again at his statement. #Kerry said he would like to reduce our deployment by building a true international coalition. That sounds like a plan to me - Bush is just pulling them out because we are overextended.

Read the quote you referenced closely:

"I've also said responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe."


Bush is just going to pull them out because we are so over-extended. #There will be no nternational coaltion to backfill of course because Bush has torqued everybody off with his "we don't need you", "if you aren't with us your against us", #arrogant foreign policy.

As for the Korean quote - #looks to me like he is going to solve some problems which may involve more involvement short term to reduce troops in the long run. #

Completely different policy than what Bush is doing.

[K4JSR]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Aug. 21 2004,10:35)]Oh, ok...you sure got me with THAT one...

You seem to enjoy conflict. I'm not going to continue to enable you. I shouldn't have taken the bait on your initial post, and I'm sorry I did.

WX7B
AAAAAAAAAAAW, come on, B. #It is not like you have
never trolled a few of us conservatives. #Be a nice little
liberal and bite that hook. #You *KNOW* that you
really want to! #Besides, we only have about 80 more
days to bash the snot out each other before we go back
to being mundane, boring techno-geeks! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
You can even call in some of your clones like WK & EFA.
(Sorry if I missed any liberals out there, I do try to be an
inclusive conservative!)
AAO has been nice enough to chum the water, so come on and beat us into submission. #Besides, we will have about 3 years of peace and harmony before we can start
gleefully ripping each other's guts out again. Nothing but ham
radio topics to talk about for three years! :yawn:
Come on now. #Your audience awaits you, sir.
Trust me! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ghostface.gif

73, # #Cal # #K4JSR # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
# # # #Troglodyte, Ga.

PS. #Just to add more fuel to the fire, conservative
women are hotter than liberal women! <Nyah! Nyah!>

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 21 2004,10:45)]Bush is just going to pull them out because we are so over-extended. There will be no nternational coaltion to backfill of course because Bush has torqued everybody off with his "we don't need you", "if you aren't with us your against us", arrogant foreign policy.
Right... we don't have a true international coalition. Just the nations of Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Costa Rica, the Czech Republic, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia (the former Soviet republic, not the state), Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Kuwait, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Mongolia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, Palau (hey! I work with a lady from Palau... nice folks!), Panama, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Rwanda, Singapore, Slovakia, the Solomon Islands, South Korea, Tonga, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, the United Kingdom, and last but certainly not least, Uzbekistan.

No, no international coalition here. Just nations from every continent on the globe except Antarctica (which has no armed forces anyway).

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[W8EFA]

Wow that is quite a list of world power countries. Most of them we have bought off. The majority lended their name for loans and sent maybe a hundred troops. The "coalition" is basically good old USA and Britain as we all know it including you too AAO.

Whaere are the major world powers - Oh - they are all called the U.N. who didn't want us to invade Iraq.

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (WX7B @ Aug. 21 2004,11:27)]AAO:

It may have escaped your notice, but the political trolling has pretty much stopped around here.

If you're looking for a response to your nonsense, you won't get it from me out of respect for everyone else here on the forum.

WX7B
Tis the season! And if who runs the country is nonsense, let me buy you a one way ticket out of here.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 21 2004,14:28)]Whaere are the major world powers - Oh - they are all called the U.N. who didn't want us to invade Iraq.
Boy, you are behind the times.

The UN didn't want us to invade because they were making fortunes through the corrupt "oil-for-food" program. Even ABCNews admits there are a lot of questions that need answered: ABCNews Investigates the Oil for Food scandal (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html). That story, by the way, is from April 20.

So, an invasion by the American-led coalition (which at one point included Spain, but they got scared off) led to American troops rummaging through Saddam's papers in Baghdad, which led to the revelations of widespread corruption in the UN.

But, of course, the UN didn't have saving their own butts at heart, they had the well-being of the Iraqi people in mind. Nevermind that the Iraqi people were systematically being tortured and killed by Saddam and his henchmen, including his two sons.

And of course, Russia didn't have keeping their huge oil contracts with Iraq intact in mind... neither did France... the two biggest recipients of oil contracts under this "oh so pure" program.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K6UEY]

Well I for one would much prefer a political debate,than all this juvenile jibberish the kindergarten crowd has been putting up for interesting topics.I have seen only one technical topic posted in the last 3 months,and it was almost a week before any one would post on it.So obviously if it requires the slightest understanding of the Technical Fundementals of Electronics that automatically disqualifies 90% of the posters,and the other 10 % do get irritated answering the same basic question each week.Whats next to keep the interest up on a Ham Forum?? Shall we take a poll to see how many put their Left shoe on first? How many run and Jump into their trousers in the morning (Fireman need not respond)??
This coming election could be one of the most important for the survival of this country in this Century,but we are encouraged not to discuss it because it irritates a precious few.
I can understand Kerry's desire to rejoin the paper tiger,and get the kick backs rolling in again.What little National Pride that is left will be easily given up,as we admit defeat to the rest of the World. Even the ARAB countries as desshelved and uncivilized as some of those countries can be they seem to retain their National Pride.I guess once you are successful and get fat and Lazy,there are no longer a need for values and National pride. In this country National Pride has become nothing more than a Horse in the Kentucky Derby.
Drop by your local Grammer and pre-school and see what the topic of the day is ,maybe it will be a winning topic on QRZ. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W8EFA]

Oh OK the U.N. didn't want to invade Iraq because France and Russia were making money.

Sorry AAO the UN did not base their decision on a few member nations making money, anymore than Bush invaded so we could have the contracts. O wait we do have all the contracts don't we. Hmmm

[K6UEY]

W8EFA,
Interesting you mentioned the individual countries who were making money on Iraq,as they are expendable, but I noticed you omitted the UN itself who was getting kickbacks from Sadamn himself on the oil for food program, and the people of Iraq never saw any of that food.Seems with a little bending and twisting of the facts and an omission here or there and the Liberal point of view comes out shinning like a new penny.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
You seem to be fond of saying that the US corporations got the contracts,but you fail to explain under what circumstances, and conditions those contracts were let and why they went to the companies they did.
The big problem with the Liberal Penny is shines alright, but it is one of the 1943 Lead pennies, not a true Copper one. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 21 2004,18:40)]The big problem with the Liberal Penny is shines alright, but it is one of the 1943 Lead pennies, not a true Copper one. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
The bulk of the 1943 pennies were zinc plated steel... except for about 40 copper ones that slipped through... and are worth quite a bit today.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Aug. 21 2004,15:20)]Oh OK the U.N. didn't want to invade Iraq because France and Russia were making money.

Sorry AAO the UN did not base their decision on a few member nations making money, anymore than Bush invaded so we could have the contracts. O wait we do have all the contracts don't we. Hmmm
No, the UN didn't want to invade because the UN officials were making money.

France and Russia didn't want to invade because French officials and Russian officials were making money.

I know, it hurts being told that these countries and organizations that you were told were Paragons of Virtue were really motivated by something as low and crass as self-interest... but the evidence is all there. You have my sympathy for your shattered illusions.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,11:06)]January 22, 2004 (emphasis mine):
Quote[/b] ]I've also said responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe.

And I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world, where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries. Full transcript here (http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/primdeb/deb012204tr.html).
. . .

Looks to me like Senator Kerry says if elected President, he is going to withdraw troops from Germany and North Korea; then when President Bush does reduce the numbers of troops in Germany and North Korea, Senator Kerry critizices him for it.

You could say Senator Kerry is criticizing President Bush for taking Kerry's own advice!

Ahh, the sound of Democrats in election season... flip... flop... flip... flop...

:unclesam:
I did not read the quoted and linked-to article. I am going to assume you made a typo, though I know you very well may not have. But correct me if I'm wrong - the US does NOT have troops in NORTH Korea.

And if we do, does that mean the conflict there is solved?

(I read all the posts hoping someone picked up on that. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any rebuttals. If I did in fact miss one, I apologise.)

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] ]The fact is that if we're going to maintain this level of commitment on a global basis, and for the moment we have to because of what's happened, we need an additional two divisions. One's a combat division and one is a support division. Now, that's the responsible thing to do.

I've also said responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe.

And I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world, where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries. KERRY, from the above refered URL. Yes, that's what he said. Go figure!

[edit - perhaps Kerry hasn't had a briefing since the 1950's ]

[K6UEY]

WA2ZDY,
Chris if you missed it, we are in the same boat.I'm quite sure that if any troops have crossed the DMZ it would have been Headline "Top of the News".I can only guess, but I think what is being refered to as US troops are the US troops and the ROK who are at the DMZ on a 24/7 basis,to stop if they can any North Korean troops from invading the South.The North Korean Leader,I can never remember his name,is not about to let US or ROK #troops cross the border. He won't even let UN Nuclear inspectors into the country.That's why Bush has been negotiating at the table for a couple of years trying to come to terms. The North Korean leader is trying to hold us up with his Nuclear program,threatning us with his possesion of the bomb,and he does not want on site inspectors evaluating his true position.His people are in dire need and starving,but he continues to support his military and Nuclear programs. It is truly international Extortion on a grand scale,but once again the trashing of the CIA and our intelligence agencies has left us blind in one eye,and so we must move slowly at his pace toward acceptable terms,that not only the US will accept but also ROK. This is one of the areas that scares me if Kerry gets involved in it,there are very precise negotations going on and his flip flop methods could put us in a Nuclear War. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 21 2004,15:58)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,11:06)]January 22, 2004 (emphasis mine):
Quote[/b] ]I've also said responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe.

And I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world, where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries. Full transcript here (http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/primdeb/deb012204tr.html).
. . .

Looks to me like Senator Kerry says if elected President, he is going to withdraw troops from Germany and North Korea; then when President Bush does reduce the numbers of troops in Germany and North Korea, Senator Kerry critizices him for it.

You could say Senator Kerry is criticizing President Bush for taking Kerry's own advice!

Ahh, the sound of Democrats in election season... flip... flop... flip... flop...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
I did not read the quoted and linked-to article. I am going to assume you made a typo, though I know you very well may not have. But correct me if I'm wrong - the US does NOT have troops in NORTH Korea.

And if we do, does that mean the conflict there is solved?

(I read all the posts hoping someone picked up on that. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any rebuttals. If I did in fact miss one, I apologise.)
Good point... I missed it and I'm the one that posted that quote and link.

I presume that what Senator Kerry meant was the troops in South Korea or the Demilitarized Zone to keep North Korea from invading.

However, it was an embarrassing slip of the tongue on Mr. Kerry's part. Can you imagine the field day the Democrats would have had if President Bush had said that?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,20:11)]I presume that what Senator Kerry meant was the troops in South Korea or the Demilitarized Zone to keep North Korea from invading.
Now, now... never make presumptions. Try to consider the possibilities...

a) There could be troops in DPRK and Kerry has just blown their cover.

b) Kerry would be making good on a bet he lost and publicly sticking his foot in the mouth on purpose.

etc


The "truth is out there", but I have yet to see Scully. <grin>

[WA2ZDY]

I feel better now - I think. At least I still know how to read and know north from south.

I'm glad my decision as to who will get my vote was already decided.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 21 2004,17:21)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,20:11)]I presume that what Senator Kerry meant was the troops in South Korea or the Demilitarized Zone to keep North Korea from invading.
Now, now... never make presumptions. Try to consider the possibilities...

a) There could be troops in DPRK and Kerry has just blown their cover.

b) Kerry would be making good on a bet he lost and publicly sticking his foot in the mouth on purpose.

etc


The "truth is out there", but I have yet to see Scully. <grin>
You missed possibility c) Kerry could have mis-spoken, and possibility d) Kerry could have no idea what the heck he is talking about.

I'll let the assembled readers pick which of the four they believe. I think c) is about the least damaging for Kerry, and so, since I do not believe he is stupid (misguided, perhaps, but by no means stupid), I will believe that until further evidence comes to light.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 21 2004,17:21)]I feel better now - I think. At least I still know how to read and know north from south.

I'm glad my decision as to who will get my vote was already decided.
Okay, which was is north? Is that towards Santa's workshop? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Yes, I just had to insert a little silliness. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K6UEY]

OPTION ( E)
In an effort to maintain an amount of consistantcy requiried by the voters,give an obviously little thought out wrong answer,then quickly FLIP FLOP to the correct answer.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 21 2004,20:48)]OPTION ( E)
In an effort to maintain an amount of consistantcy requiried by the voters,give an obviously little thought out wrong answer,then quickly FLIP FLOP to the correct answer.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Now you're thinking!

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Aug. 21 2004,17:48)]OPTION ( E)
In an effort to maintain an amount of consistantcy requiried by the voters,give an obviously little thought out wrong answer,then quickly FLIP FLOP to the correct answer.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Hmmm... possible... we shall see if he ever flips to the right answer. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[W5HTW]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 21 2004,17:21)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,20:11)]I presume that what Senator Kerry meant was the troops in South Korea or the Demilitarized Zone to keep North Korea from invading.
Now, now... never make presumptions. Try to consider the possibilities...

a) There could be troops in DPRK and Kerry has just blown their cover.

b) Kerry would be making good on a bet he lost and publicly sticking his foot in the mouth on purpose.

etc


The "truth is out there", but I have yet to see Scully. <grin>
... And I do want to see Scully, up close and personal


Nah, we do not have any troops in North Korea. We can WISH we had some folks in North Korea but we don't. Wwe might better be wishing we had spies in Iran.

By the way, the NK government will indeed let choice Americans visit, and even photograph, the USS Pueblo, but not often and not just anyone. And extremely well guided to get there and get back. Interesting. I've seen a lot of photos of the interior of that ship since it came to rest in Uncle Il what's-his-name's harbor.

Hopefully, though, if the DPRK heard Kerry's remark that we have troops there, he is now running crazily around shooting all his top aides for letting it happen. Maybe Kerry did us a favor?

Ed

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Aug. 21 2004,18:11)]By the way, the NK government will indeed let choice Americans visit, and even photograph, the USS Pueblo, but not often and not just anyone. And extremely well guided to get there and get back. Interesting. I've seen a lot of photos of the interior of that ship since it came to rest in Uncle Il what's-his-name's harbor.
Well guided, or well guarded? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K4JSR]

To WX7B or not to WX7B? That is still the troll!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

73, Cal K4JSR
East Jabip, Ga. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,20:27)]I'll let the assembled readers pick which of the four they believe. I think c) is about the least damaging for Kerry, and so, since I do not believe he is stupid (misguided, perhaps, but by no means stupid), I will believe that until further evidence comes to light.
I'm actually not convinced he's not stupid. #Lots of ultra liberal weirdos from Massachussetts have proven their stupidity in the past. #The ones from that "other" family though have managed to buy their way out of trouble (well, all except that exceptionally stupid one who was too stupid to tell his wife "no, we're NOT taking your sister flying in this crappy weather.")

That aside, I have to say I never heard of John Kerry in any particularly memorable way until the primary earlier this year. #And even then remember, he wasn't the one being talked about; it was Edwards and Dean we were hearing. #Kerry's source of whatever it is seems to be more his wife, the catsup lady. #SHE'S the one who is fabulously wealthy (maybe he was too but I don't get that impression.) #

And aside from Heinz condiments, the late Sen Heinz of Pennsylvania is a name I was familiar with, working for years in suburban Philadelphia. #(Before HIS brush with another stupid flyboy moron.)

So much for stupid. #Now let's get back to the facts. #Wherever they may be hiding until after 02 Nov.


Edit note: You know what's funny about me posting this? I nearly moved to Massachussetts 20 years ago to be a cop in Quincy (with a "z" thank you.) I've had a love affair with that state for much of my life, my otherwise absolutely worthless (except to the bank account of his favourite liquor store owner) step-father being a Hyannis native. I now travel to Martha's Vineyard regularly to visit friend who are year-round residents of Edgartown. And lastly, as I type this, I'm playing a Boston CD.

Go figure.

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 22 2004,08:44)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 21 2004,20:27)]I'll let the assembled readers pick which of the four they believe. I think c) is about the least damaging for Kerry, and so, since I do not believe he is stupid (misguided, perhaps, but by no means stupid), I will believe that until further evidence comes to light.
I'm actually not convinced he's not stupid. Lots of ultra liberal weirdos from Massachussetts have proven their stupidity in the past. The ones from that "other" family though have managed to buy their way out of trouble (well, all except that exceptionally stupid one who was too stupid to tell his wife "no, we're NOT taking your sister flying in this crappy weather.")
Well, I doubt a truly stupid person could get as far as Kerry has in politics... it takes a certain level of intelligence to succeed. As I say, I think he may be misguided, but hardly a dunce.

It should be noted that the ones who most frequently pull out the "he's stupid" attack are the Democrats, using it to attack President Bush. I really don't think it does the GOP any good to claim that Kerry is stupid. We should be honorable enough to admit the other guy's intelligence.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K0YNE]

At Least he went to Viet Nam, faced the enemy, got wounded, received metals, and that is far more than "W" or the VP did. End of arguement. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K0YNE @ Aug. 23 2004,07:24)]At Least he went to Viet Nam, faced the enemy, got wounded, received metals, and that is far more than "W" or the VP did. End of arguement. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Really?

Just out of curiosity, where did Senator John Edwards, Democratic Vice Presidential candidate, serve? How often was he under fire? What wounds did he get in combat?

Just curious...

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[K0YNE]

Of course it's a smear job. Senator Kerry faced down the enemy years ago, to have to face a few people now who don't have the war record to try to bring him down.
George would have a war record too if he wanted' but then on the other hand, he may have been wounded or worse. Let's really define who is brave and who not.

[N7AAO]

You were the one who brought up what "'W' or the VP did," (emphasis mine)... now you are avoiding the question of your party's VP candidate's service.

I ask again: Where did Senator Edwards serve? What enemy's fire did he face? What wounds did he receive?

Remember, you brought up VP qualifications, K0YNE.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (K0YNE @ Aug. 23 2004,07:24)]At Least he went to Viet Nam, faced the enemy, got wounded, received metals, and that is far more than "W" or the VP did. End of arguement. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
K0YNE,

I am still waiting for your answer to my question about Senator Edwards' (the Democratic VP candidate) military service. Specifically:

What branch of the service was he in?
What war/conflict did he serve in?
What wounds did he suffer?
What medals did he receive?

Inquiring minds want to know, especially since you saw fit to bring up VP Cheney's service record.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[AE4FB]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,05:38)]Quote[/b] (K0YNE @ Aug. 23 2004,07:24)]At Least he went to Viet Nam, faced the enemy, got wounded, received metals, and that is far more than "W" or the VP did. End of arguement. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
K0YNE,

I am still waiting for your answer to my question about Senator Edwards' (the Democratic VP candidate) military service. Specifically:

What branch of the service was he in?
What war/conflict did he serve in?
What wounds did he suffer?
What medals did he receive?

Inquiring minds want to know, especially since you saw fit to bring up VP Cheney's service record.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
Since most "conservatives" let others do their thinking for them it's hardly surprising that they need others to do their homework also. For supporting links follow the url at the bottom of the article.
Cheers,
AE4FB
Member: Compassionate Snipers for the Truth ;-)

To Whit:

The Post-Vietnam Candidate
Finally, a national-ticket candidate too young to have served in Vietnam.
ByTimothy Noah
Posted Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT


John Kerry's selection of John Edwards to be his running mate marks an important threshold in American history. In Edwards, we can glimpse an end to years of class warfare—or rather, class warfare of a certain kind. Edwards' epoch-making role is a simple matter of chronology. He is the first national-ticket candidate to be too young to have to explain whether he joined up or evaded the draft during the Vietnam War.

Edwards was born on June 10, 1953. That put him in the Vietnam draft lottery of Feb. 2, 1972, when Edwards was a sophomore at North Carolina State University. (Like a great many college students, he opposed the war.) The lottery ranked individuals according to their birth date; Edwards drew 178, which was reasonably "good," i.e., high, reducing the likelihood he would be called up. (The highest number called during the previous year had been 95.) In any event, Edwards' lottery number didn't even matter, because nobody in the 1972 lottery was ever called up. The war was winding down and draft resistance had become an enormous headache for the Pentagon. In 1973, it scotched the draft altogether and instituted the All Volunteer Army. Unimpeded by any Vietnam-related moral or legal dilemmas, Edwards graduated from North Carolina State in the spring of 1974 and enrolled at the University of North Carolina Law School in the fall.

During the primaries, Kerry cracked, "When I came home from Vietnam in 1969, I don't know if John Edwards was out of diapers." Kerry immediately regretted (or professed to regret) this swipe at Edwards' comparative youth and inexperience in government. He even phoned Edwards to apologize. But take it from Chatterbox, five years Edwards' junior (and therefore 15 when the draft ended). Diapers were a very good place to be. Missing Woodstock was a small price to be free from the risk that your government would make you fight a senseless war, or the certainty that if you managed to wiggle out of it, someone less privileged would take your place.

One might conceivably fault Edwards for failing to enlist voluntarily on his 18th birthday in 1971, but the notion that anybody—much less an opponent of the Vietnam War like Edwards—had a "duty to enlist" is so unreasonable that Chatterbox has never heard it voiced. Edwards, at any rate, was no pampered child of privilege. He was (as he's stated repeatedly) the son of a millworker, and the first in his family to attend college. For all practical purposes, then, Edwards has no Vietnam-era choice to defend (as Bush must) or flaunt (as Kerry does). It's a complete nonissue.

Edwards' youth doesn't mark the end of political warfare over what someone on the presidential ticket did during the Vietnam War, nor even, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, the beginning of the end. But it does give us a glimmer of what awaits us in a decade or so, when nobody running for president will have to explain his Vietnam strategy. The battles over Vietnam service, or lack thereof, have been necessary, but wearying. They began in the summer of 1988, when President George H.W. Bush chose as his running mate Dan Quayle, who was born to wealth and, memorably, explained his decision to join the National Guard thusly: "My desire was to go on to law school as soon as possible, so the National Guard allowed me to go to active duty for six months." They continued in 1992 with the presidential campaign of Bill Clinton, who in 1969 wrote a famously smarmy letter from Oxford to an ROTC colonel reneging on his previous pledge to join, on the strength of which Clinton had received a draft deferment. Clinton took additional lumps in 1996, when his opponent was disabled World War II hero Bob Dole. (Dole's running mate, Jack Kemp, was too old by a hair for Vietnam, having earlier avoided the peacetime draft by joining the Army Reserve.) The 2000 election marked the first time a Vietnam veteran (Al Gore) was a major-party presidential nominee. He lost to President Bush, whose service in the Air National Guard was marked by long absences, and Dick Cheney, who had "other priorities in the '60s than military service" and gamed the deferment system in various ways. In 2004, Bush faces John Kerry, a Vietnam veteran who actually killed people during the war and repeatedly risked being killed himself.

The character issues raised in the Great Vietnam-Service Debate have been important, and they're extremely rich in drama. They cannot be ignored. But they've also been trying, because they have forced us to relive an unpleasant and divisive time in our recent history. With Edwards' elevation to the national ticket, we get a brief taste of what life will be like when we don't have to relive it anymore. Yum.

Timothy Noah writes "Chatterbox" for Slate.

Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2103487/

[N7AAO]

AE4FB:

Where did I use the word "Vietnam" in my message? I asked if Senator Edwards ever signed up for any military service at all.

Please note that I did not bring this question up until Vice President Cheney's military service was brought into question by someone else. At that point, I thought an honest, open discussion of the military careers of both VP candidates might be a good thing.

You have also refused to answer the simple question: When did John Edwards serve in the military?

Of course, I already know the answer... and most intelligent people who read my posts will already know that I pepper many of them with quotes from online sources, and that I identify those sources with links. So your comment about needing someone else to do my research is way off the mark.

Nice try, but sorry. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

p.s. Thanks for helping to keep this thread on the first page!

[n0ov]

While suturing a laceration on the hand of an 80-year-old grizzled Texas rancher (whose hand had caught in a gate while working cattle), a doctor and the old man were talking about John Kerry's possibility of being in the White House.

The old Texan said, "Well, ya know, Kerry's one of them 'post turtles'."

Not knowing what the old man meant, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was..

The old man said, "Well, when you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old man saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he continued to explain, "You know he didn't get there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he can't get anything done while he's up there, and you just want to help the poor dumb bastard get down 'afore he hurts hisself."

[AE4FB]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,14:33)]AE4FB:

Where did I use the word "Vietnam" in my message? I asked if Senator Edwards ever signed up for any military service at all.

Please note that I did not bring this question up until Vice President Cheney's military service was brought into question by someone else. At that point, I thought an honest, open discussion of the military careers of both VP candidates might be a good thing.

You have also refused to answer the simple question: When did John Edwards serve in the military?

Of course, I already know the answer... and most intelligent people who read my posts will already know that I pepper many of them with quotes from online sources, and that I identify those sources with links. So your comment about needing someone else to do my research is way off the mark.

Nice try, but sorry. We have some lovely parting gifts for you.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

p.s. Thanks for helping to keep this thread on the first page!

Certainly a Hannity like attempt at misdirection by my e-steamed colleague on the right.
de AE4FB


Rense.com


Did Cheney Dodge
The Draft Five Times?
By Barry Ritholtz
Bop News.com
5-3-4

You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried:
#
"On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born."
#
This quote comes from a Saturday NYTimes article --
"Cheney's Five Draft Deferments During the Vietnam Era Emerge as a Campaign Issue" -- discussing the lengths VP Dick Cheney went to in order to avoid serving during the Viet Nam war.
#
It is apparent from the piece that Richard Cheney did everything humanly possible -- short of fleeing to Canada -- to avoid military conscription: He applied for and recieved 5 student deferments, a number described as "incredible" by professor David Curry of the University of Missouri in St. Louis. Curry has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender." The Times quotes Mr. Curry as observing: "That's a lot of times for the draft board to say O.K."
#
* Three weeks and a day after the Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed (giving President Johnson unlimited military force in Vietnam), Cheney married Lynn Cheney.
#
* Within a day or so of the end of deferment for "Married w/o children," Mr. and Mrs. Cheney conceived their first child.
#
Here's the rest of Cheney's well timed actions:
#
In February 1962, when Mr. Cheney was classified as 1-A available for service he was doing poorly at Yale. But the military was taking only older men at that point, and like others who were in college at the time, Mr. Cheney seemed to have little concern about being drafted.
#
In June, he left Yale. After returning home to Casper, a small city in east-central Wyoming, he worked as a lineman for a power company.
#
At that point, the Vietnam War was still just a glimmer on the horizon. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. Mr. Cheney was eligible for the draft but, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.
#
But by 1963, ferment in Vietnam was rising. Mr. Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College in January 1963 he turned 22 that month and sought his first student deferment on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, he sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963.
#
On Aug. 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use unlimited military force in Vietnam. The war escalated rapidly from there.
#
Just 22 days later, Mr. Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought his third student deferment on Oct. 14, 1964.
#
In May 1965, Mr. Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. But he was married, which offered him some protection.
#
In July, President Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964.
#
Mr. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment when he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965.
#
On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born. On Jan. 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted.
#
In January 1967, Mr. Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.
#
Quite frankly, I would have done the same thing as Cheney (if I wasn't 9 at the time). The difference between the Veep and me is that I wouldn't have the temerity to criticize someone who not only served in Viet Nam, but was wounded three times and won several honors for courage and bravery.
#
That would simply be hypocritical.
#
Cheney apparently has no such restraints. Of the American involvement in Vietnam, Dick Cheney was asked: "Was it a noble cause?
#
His answer: "Yes, indeed, I think it was."
#
Just not for him . . .
#
#

Cheney's Five Draft Deferments During the
Vietnam Era Emerge as a Campaign Issue

By Katharine Q. Seelye
NY Times
May 1, 2004
#
WAASHINGTON -- It was 1959 when Dick Cheney, then a student at Yale University, turned 18 and became eligible for the draft.
#
Eventually, like 16 million other young men of that era, Mr. Cheney sought deferments. By the time he turned 26 in January 1967 and was no longer eligible for the draft, he had asked for and received five deferments, four because he was a student and one for being a new father.
#
Although President Richard M. Nixon stopped the draft in 1973 and the war itself ended 29 years ago on Friday, the issue of service remains a personally sensitive and politically potent touchstone in the biographies of many politicians from that era.
#
For much of Mr. Cheney's political career, his deferments have largely been a nonissue.
#
In an increasingly vituperative political campaign, Mr. Cheney this week again questioned the credentials of Senator John Kerry and his ability to be commander in chief. Mr. Kerry, who was decorated in Vietnam and has made his service there a central element of his campaign, fired back.
#
Putting Mr. Cheney's record in the spotlight, Mr. Kerry said that he "got every deferment in the world and decided he had better things to do."
#
Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign, dismissed the criticism, saying that Mr. Kerry was delving into a subject that he had said he would not touch. Mr. Schmidt said that Mr. Kerry was trying to divert attention from what the spokesman said was Mr. Kerry's reversals on other topics.
#
While Mr. Cheney's deferment history was briefly an issue when George W. Bush picked him as his running mate in 2000, the Democrats did not focus on it after Al Gore, the Democratic presidential nominee, who had served in Vietnam, picked as his running mate Senator Joseph Lieberman, who also had not served.
#
The issue also received little attention during Mr. Cheney's Senate confirmation hearings as defense secretary in 1989 under the first President Bush, largely because the Armed Services Committee had just completed a bitter and protracted battle over the president's original choice, John G. Tower. Mr. Tower had faced questions about philandering, drinking and conflicts over defense contracts before he was rejected.
#
Senators of both parties were so eager to confirm Mr. Cheney quickly that they were relatively undemanding, not pressing him on the draft but merely asking him if he had anything to say about it.
#
He said he "never served" because of deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, which he attributed to subpar academic performance and the fact that he had to work to pay for his education.
#
He added that he "would have obviously been happy to serve had I been called."
#
Away from the hearing room, he told the Washington Post that he had sought his deferments because "I had other priorities in the 60's than military service."
#
"I don't regret the decisions I made," he added. "I complied fully with all the requirements of the statutes, registered with the draft when I turned 18. Had I been drafted, I would have been happy to serve."
#
But others contend that Mr. Cheney appeared to go to some length to avoid the draft.
#
"Five deferments seems incredible to me," said David Curry, a professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis who has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender."
#
"That's a lot of times for the draft board to say O.K.," Mr. Curry said.
#
In February 1962, when Mr. Cheney was classified as 1-A " available for service " he was doing poorly at Yale. But the military was taking only older men at that point, and like others who were in college at the time, Mr. Cheney seemed to have little concern about being drafted.
#
In June, he left Yale. After returning home to Casper, a small city in east-central Wyoming, he worked as a lineman for a power company.
#
At that point, the Vietnam War was still just a glimmer on the horizon. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. Mr. Cheney was eligible for the draft but, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.
#
But by 1963, ferment in Vietnam was rising. Mr. Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College in January 1963 " he turned 22 that month " and sought his first student deferment on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, he sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963.
#
On Aug. 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use unlimited military force in Vietnam. The war escalated rapidly from there.
#
Just 22 days later, Mr. Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought his third student deferment on Oct. 14, 1964.
#
In May 1965, Mr. Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. But he was married, which offered him some protection.
#
In July, President Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964.
#
Mr. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment when he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965.
#
On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born. On Jan. 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted.
#
In January 1967, Mr. Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.
#
Of the 26.8 million men who were eligible for the draft between 1964 and 1973, only 2.2 million were drafted while 8.7 million joined voluntarily, according to "Chance and Circumstance: the Draft, the War, and the Vietnam Generation," a 1978 book by Lawrence M. Baskir and William A. Strauss. Mr. Cheney was among the vast majority of 16 million men " about 60 percent of those eligible " who avoided the draft by legal means.
#
The deferment process proved controversial, discriminating against men who were black or poor, and a lottery was introduced in 1969. President Nixon did away with student deferments in 1971 and the draft ended in 1973.
#
But the deferments left such a bitter after-effect that the Selective Service says on its Web site (www.sss.gov) that if a draft were reinstituted, it would be conducted much differently and there would be fewer excuses for people to get out of it.
#
At the time of his confirmation hearings as defense secretary, Mr. Cheney said that he had not taken any action either for or against the military during the Vietnam War. But, he told an interviewer at the time, "I think those who did in fact serve deserve to be honored for their service."
#
Of American involvement in Vietnam, he said: "Was it a noble cause? Yes, indeed, I think it was."
HINGTON, April 30 " It was 1959 when Dick Cheney, then a student at Yale University, turned 18 and became eligible for the draft.
#
Eventually, like 16 million other young men of that era, Mr. Cheney sought deferments. By the time he turned 26 in January 1967 and was no longer eligible for the draft, he had asked for and received five deferments, four because he was a student and one for being a new father.
#
Although President Richard M. Nixon stopped the draft in 1973 and the war itself ended 29 years ago on Friday, the issue of service remains a personally sensitive and politically potent touchstone in the biographies of many politicians from that era.
#
For much of Mr. Cheney's political career, his deferments have largely been a nonissue.
#
In an increasingly vituperative political campaign, Mr. Cheney this week again questioned the credentials of Senator John Kerry and his ability to be commander in chief. Mr. Kerry, who was decorated in Vietnam and has made his service there a central element of his campaign, fired back.
#
Putting Mr. Cheney's record in the spotlight, Mr. Kerry said that he "got every deferment in the world and decided he had better things to do."
#
Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign, dismissed the criticism, saying that Mr. Kerry was delving into a subject that he had said he would not touch. Mr. Schmidt said that Mr. Kerry was trying to divert attention from what the spokesman said was Mr. Kerry's reversals on other topics.
#
While Mr. Cheney's deferment history was briefly an issue when George W. Bush picked him as his running mate in 2000, the Democrats did not focus on it after Al Gore, the Democratic presidential nominee, who had served in Vietnam, picked as his running mate Senator Joseph Lieberman, who also had not served.
#
The issue also received little attention during Mr. Cheney's Senate confirmation hearings as defense secretary in 1989 under the first President Bush, largely because the Armed Services Committee had just completed a bitter and protracted battle over the president's original choice, John G. Tower. Mr. Tower had faced questions about philandering, drinking and conflicts over defense contracts before he was rejected.
#
Senators of both parties were so eager to confirm Mr. Cheney quickly that they were relatively undemanding, not pressing him on the draft but merely asking him if he had anything to say about it.
#
He said he "never served" because of deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, which he attributed to subpar academic performance and the fact that he had to work to pay for his education.
#
He added that he "would have obviously been happy to serve had I been called."
#
Away from the hearing room, he told the Washington Post that he had sought his deferments because "I had other priorities in the 60's than military service."
#
"I don't regret the decisions I made," he added. "I complied fully with all the requirements of the statutes, registered with the draft when I turned 18. Had I been drafted, I would have been happy to serve."
#
But others contend that Mr. Cheney appeared to go to some length to avoid the draft.
#
"Five deferments seems incredible to me," said David Curry, a professor at the University of Missouri in St. Louis who has written extensively about the draft, including a 1985 book, "Sunshine Patriots: Punishment and the Vietnam Offender."
#
"That's a lot of times for the draft board to say O.K.," Mr. Curry said.
#
In February 1962, when Mr. Cheney was classified as 1-A " available for service " he was doing poorly at Yale. But the military was taking only older men at that point, and like others who were in college at the time, Mr. Cheney seemed to have little concern about being drafted.
#
In June, he left Yale. After returning home to Casper, a small city in east-central Wyoming, he worked as a lineman for a power company.
#
At that point, the Vietnam War was still just a glimmer on the horizon. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. Mr. Cheney was eligible for the draft but, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.
#
But by 1963, ferment in Vietnam was rising. Mr. Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College in January 1963 " he turned 22 that month " and sought his first student deferment on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, he sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963.
#
On Aug. 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use unlimited military force in Vietnam. The war escalated rapidly from there.
#
Just 22 days later, Mr. Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought his third student deferment on Oct. 14, 1964.
#
In May 1965, Mr. Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. But he was married, which offered him some protection.
#
In July, President Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964.
#
Mr. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment when he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965.
#
On Oct. 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Mr. Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born. On Jan. 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted.
#
In January 1967, Mr. Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.
#
Of the 26.8 million men who were eligible for the draft between 1964 and 1973, only 2.2 million were drafted while 8.7 million joined voluntarily, according to "Chance and Circumstance: the Draft, the War, and the Vietnam Generation," a 1978 book by Lawrence M. Baskir and William A. Strauss. Mr. Cheney was among the vast majority of 16 million men " about 60 percent of those eligible " who avoided the draft by legal means.
#
The deferment process proved controversial, discriminating against men who were black or poor, and a lottery was introduced in 1969. President Nixon did away with student deferments in 1971 and the draft ended in 1973.
#
But the deferments left such a bitter after-effect that the Selective Service says on its Web site (www.sss.gov) that if a draft were reinstituted, it would be conducted much differently and there would be fewer excuses for people to get out of it.
#
At the time of his confirmation hearings as defense secretary, Mr. Cheney said that he had not taken any action either for or against the military during the Vietnam War. But, he told an interviewer at the time, "I think those who did in fact serve deserve to be honored for their service."
#
Of American involvement in Vietnam, he said: "Was it a noble cause? Yes, indeed, I think it was."
#
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html




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[N7AAO]

So, now you are bringing up Mr. Cheney's record.

And you still have not answered my question:

If you want to compare Vice Presidential candidates, then tell me what branch of the Armed Forces John Edwards served in. Tell me what years he was in uniform. Tell me what medals he received. Tell me what wounds he received.

I'm not the one misdirecting here, you are. I didn't mention Vietnam, and you accused me of it, while trying to misdirect the thread. I brought it back onto my question, and now you are trying to misdirect us again. It ain't gonna work.

By the way, wonder what Glen will think of you posting the full text of your articles? Copyright, remember!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (KC0LNU @ Aug. 24 2004,14:45)]While suturing a laceration on the hand of an 80-year-old grizzled Texas rancher (whose hand had caught in a gate #while working cattle), a doctor and the old man were talking about John Kerry's possibility of being in the White House.

The old Texan said, "Well, ya know, Kerry's one of them 'post turtles'."

Not knowing what the old man meant, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was..

The old man said, "Well, when you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old man saw a puzzled look on the doctor's face, so he continued to #explain, "You know he didn't get there by himself, he doesn't belong there, he can't get anything done while he's up there, and you just want to help the poor dumb bastard get down 'afore he hurts hisself."
Replace John Kerry with George Bush and this makes sense!

"You know he didn't get there by himself," #- GWB to a Tee. #His daddy got him there - anybody even know anything about Kerry's family?

"he doesn't belong there," #- Boy that is for sure. #Any sitting President who is below 50% approval and has to fight for re-election obviously isn't doing a good job. #Even if he somehow get's re-elected he is obviously not one of our stellar Presidents.

"he can't get anything done while he's up there", - #Name one darn UNQUESTIONABLY good thing he has accomplished.

"and you just want to help the poor dumb bastard get down 'afore he hurts hisself."[/quote] - #AMen

[AE4FB]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,14:50)]So, now you are bringing up Mr. Cheney's record.

And you still have not answered my question:

If you want to compare Vice Presidential candidates, then tell me what branch of the Armed Forces John Edwards served in. Tell me what years he was in uniform. Tell me what medals he received. Tell me what wounds he received.

I'm not the one misdirecting here, you are. I didn't mention Vietnam, and you accused me of it, while trying to misdirect the thread. I brought it back onto my question, and now you are trying to misdirect us again. It ain't gonna work.

By the way, wonder what Glen will think of you posting the full text of your articles? Copyright, remember!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

You obviously haven't read either of my posts or you would realize that the first one answers your rhetorical question. Unless of course you're just in denial, with #denial not being an uncommon charastic among pseudo conservatives these days.

I'm simply not going to feed your rhetoric, I'm simply going to post facts under the fair use doctrine in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, since this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

As to matters of misdirection? Your argument seems to be 1) "I know you are but what am I?" 2) And then you look for Glen to toss me for using facts... But that's not misdirection... Yeah, Right.

So if Glen rescue's you it will be because he want's to not because he has to. He is covered but you're grasping for administrative straws.

[N7AAO]

Gee, you're not gonna feed my rhetoric? You keep posting to this thread, that looks like feeding it now!

And I am not looking for Glen to toss you for using facts... it is a well-known fact that it's against QRZ policy to post the entire text of an article. I suspect Glen will edit your posts down to just the link for the article, if one exists.

And I don't want an article to answer my question... I want you in your own words, to answer it... but you won't, because that would destroy your nice double standard where you bash Cheney for not having served, but let Edwards have a pass for not having served!

So, are you, yourself, going to answer my question: What branch of the Armed Forces did The Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate join?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[AE4FB]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,17:20)]And I don't want an article to answer my question... I want you in your own words, to answer it... but you won't, because that would destroy your nice double standard where you bash Cheney for not having served, but let Edwards have a pass for not having served!

So, are you, yourself, going to answer my question: What branch of the Armed Forces did The Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate join?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
The more important and the only real question here is what Military service did either of the vice presidential candidates avoid.

Edwards: None. Not Applicable: Conflict winding down, draft ended, services disgorging massive numbers of members. (In a minor note John Edwards did however take the draft physical which was closer than Cheney ever got to doing his duty.)

Cheney: Five (5) draft deferments during wartime all with questionable timing. The deferments were good for Dick because if he had been anything but a REMF and the gooks hadn't zaped him we probably have fragged his cowardly a$$...;-) But then that's not applicable either because, Dick's a$$ has REMF written all over it's ugly expanse.

Cheers,
AE4FB

[N7AAO]

Oh, yeah, we can't have anyone in office that requested a deferment, can we?

I give you the Harvard Crimson of 18 February 1970 (http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185):
Quote[/b] ]When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.

Get that? Mr. Kerry approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris! Isn't that what is called a deferment? Let's see:
Quote[/b] ]de·fer·ment, n.

1. The act or an instance of delaying or putting off.
2. Officially sanctioned postponement of compulsory military service.
Dictionary.com definition of deferment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deferment)

So, I guess if requesting a deferment is bad, Kerry is just as bad as Cheney... the only difference is, Kerry got told "no."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[AE4FB]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,18:55)]Oh, yeah, we can't have anyone in office that requested a deferment, can we?

I give you the Harvard Crimson of 18 February 1970 (http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185):
Quote[/b] ]When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.

Get that? Mr. Kerry approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris! Isn't that what is called a deferment? Let's see:
Quote[/b] ]de·fer·ment, n.

# 1. The act or an instance of delaying or putting off.
# 2. Officially sanctioned postponement of compulsory military service.
Dictionary.com definition of deferment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deferment)

So, I guess if requesting a deferment is bad, Kerry is just as bad as Cheney... the only difference is, Kerry got told "no."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
Multiple Text Book propaganda ploys. (101)

False Asserttation leading finally to a false conclusion, subject change, subject comparison change, completely ignores qualitative and quantitative reference points, etc. ad nauseam.

Diagnosis: Suspect severe Hannitization syndrome combined with cerebral Limbaughtomy with a probable history of Reaganitis during formative adolescent years.

Prognosis: None worth mentioning.

AE4FB
Clear of the Frequency

[K3UD]

AAO
David,

Man, you are tough! Ever consider applying for Tim Russert's job? You already have the research department http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

73
George
K3UD

[KB1GYQ]

Lets see here...

Does a wedding get planned and executed in 22 days? No.... not if there are any guests.

Can conception be planned to that degree? Not really, two can try, but whether it catches or not is too random to bet on.

He used the legal options afforded him, those afforded everyone.

Unless you can show me evidance otherwise, the timing is questionable only to those wanting to question it.

And if you can show otherwise, that wedding planner must be quite rich by now.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[N7AAO]

Quote[/b] (AE4FB @ Aug. 24 2004,19:21)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,18:55)]Oh, yeah, we can't have anyone in office that requested a deferment, can we?

I give you the Harvard Crimson of 18 February 1970 (http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185):
Quote[/b] ]When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.

Get that? Mr. Kerry approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris! Isn't that what is called a deferment? Let's see:
Quote[/b] ]de·fer·ment, n.

1. The act or an instance of delaying or putting off.
2. Officially sanctioned postponement of compulsory military service.
Dictionary.com definition of deferment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deferment)

So, I guess if requesting a deferment is bad, Kerry is just as bad as Cheney... the only difference is, Kerry got told "no."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
Multiple Text Book propaganda ploys. (101)

False Asserttation leading finally to a false conclusion, subject change, subject comparison change, completely ignores qualitative and quantitative reference points, etc. ad nauseam.

Diagnosis: Suspect severe Hannitization syndrome combined with cerebral Limbaughtomy with a probable history of Reaganitis during formative adolescent years.

Prognosis: None worth mentioning.

AE4FB
Clear of the Frequency
You would know all about avoidance, OM. Here I point to evidence from 34 years ago that Kerry sought a deferment himself, and all you can do is indulge in pseudo-medical jargon laced with what are, to you, insults.

My point has been made, my job for the moment done. I'll leave you to contemplate what I have said. But I will offer one more point... what do all those who have read, yet have not replied, think of your candidate now that they know he himself sought to avoid the Vietnam war?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 24 2004,22:48)]Does a wedding get planned and executed in 22 days? No.... #not if there are any guests.
BzzzzzT ... Wrong answer.

I met my wife in June, proposed 2 weeks later on July 4th and we were married on July 24th - all in the same year. There were about 150 guests at the wedding, most of whom were saying "They must be crazy!" or "Who is he/she marrying?"

Well, we're still crazy, I guess! But neither of us was dodging the draft.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[KB1GYQ]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 24 2004,22:58)]Quote[/b] (KB1GYQ @ Aug. 24 2004,22:48)]Does a wedding get planned and executed in 22 days? No.... not if there are any guests.
BzzzzzT ... Wrong answer.

I met my wife in June, proposed 2 weeks later on July 4th and we were married on July 24th - all in the same year. There were about 150 guests at the wedding, most of whom were saying "They must be crazy!" or "Who is he/she marrying?"

Well, we're still crazy, I guess! But neither of us was dodging the draft.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
We had 300 guests, so we had to look a long time just to find a place - over 3 months if memory serves me right; most places are booked a year in advance. With all the other gory details I just can't imagine doing it all in that time... just picking a gown took my wife more time then that.

[KB1GYQ]

The latest best selling book, for what it's worth...
anti-kerry book (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1131&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040824%2F2035879754.htm&sc=1131) Note that B&N says that their review section for this book is a free-for-all, the normal rules against personal attacks will not be enforced... so have fun, and embarrass your cause. <evil grin> (I can't wait for life to return to normal... )

[kn6z]

Maybe Clinton, Gore, Bush, Kerry, etc., didn't want to go crawling around in a jungle full of bullets and bugs, snakes and snipers, and FRANCIS FORD COPELLA. I don't hold it against any of these guys. I bet lots of guys served honorably, fought bravely, but would gladly have taken Bush's Guard gig, or Gore's journalist gig, if they could have gotten it.

In Michael Moore's debate with O'Reilly, O'Reilly would not come out and say that he would send his own children into the Iraq war. Apparently his answer is no. I don't blame him. I understand that in "911," Moore ambushes politicians who favor the war, but they refuse to say whether they would send their children into the war. I don't hold that against any of those politicians.

In comparing the candidates, I don't give this stuff any weight.

[K6UEY]

KN6Z,
I think you might have missed the point,Kerry has centered his campaign around he would be a good Commander in Chief because he spent his time in country defending the US and winning all his medals.Had he spent a little time on how he would handle some of the issues of this country, this would have never come up. But since Bush was a combat Pilot in the Air Force National Guard and spent his time protecting the Home front Kerry thought he would get away with it. Seem's the guys who he left to finish their FULL tour didn't appreciate the manner in which he earned his medals or the fact he came home only after a couple of months,then bad mouthed the troops to Congress.Jane Fonda and her anti-American stunts never did play well with the guys getting their ass shot off and Kerry's affiliation with her did not bolster his position.His winning his medals it seems is all he has going for himself,his record in the Senate is dismal at best,his votes are to the left of Ted Kennedy,that is when he shows up to vote,his attendance record is one the people of Mass. should discuss with him.
POST SCRIPT:
Despite his absence to committee meetings and votes on the floor he has accepted all his paychecks right on schedule,seems to have no remorse for not earning them.

[w0don]

I served in Korea. What would Kerry know about troops there since he hasn't payed a visit to them. Everytime John Kerry speaks that means some other lier doesn't stand a chance:cool:

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 24 2004,20:20)]Gee, you're not gonna feed my rhetoric? You keep posting to this thread, that looks like feeding it now!

And I am not looking for Glen to toss you for using facts... it is a well-known fact that it's against QRZ policy to post the entire text of an article. I suspect Glen will edit your posts down to just the link for the article, if one exists.

And I don't want an article to answer my question... I want you in your own words, to answer it... but you won't, because that would destroy your nice double standard where you bash Cheney for not having served, but let Edwards have a pass for not having served!

So, are you, yourself, going to answer my question: What branch of the Armed Forces did The Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate join?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
I think I can answer that, Dave. He was a commander in the ACS/SLSD--Ambulance Chasing Service/Specious Lawsuit Division.

He was in town the day before yesterday. And just as they had in Boston, the city imposed a citywide EVQZ--Emergency Vehicle Quiet Zone--lest he bolt from the podium to chase the first one he hears.

[n9yb]

Quote[/b] ]O'Reilly would not come out and say that he would send his own children into the Iraq war. #Apparently his answer is no.


The fallacy with that line of questioning is that we have an all volunteer military.

Those who enlist do so accepting the risks that come with that particular line of work.

Moore, as you noted, likes to bait. #Not answering a "baiting" question is just fine in my book. #O'Reilly never answered the question, thus there was no answer.

Both candidates need to focus on our future, not their respective pasts.

[n0ov]

Headlines in the year 2029
Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh largest
country in the world, Mexifornia formally known as California.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

White minorities still trying to have English recognized as Mexifornia's third
language.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Spotted Owl plague threatens northwest United States crops and livestock.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Baby conceived naturally . . . scientists stumped.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Last remaining Fundamentalist Muslin dies in the American Territory of the
Middle East, formally known as Iran, Afghanistan.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Iraq is still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least 10 more years
before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

France pleads for global help after being overtaken by Jamaica.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported legally,
but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2036.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces mail
delivery to Wednesdays only.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

85-year, $75.8 billion study: Diet and Exercise is the key to weight loss.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter speed,
they now can photograph a woman with her mouth shut.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Average height of NBA players now nine feet, seven inches.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters
and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2036.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Congress authorizes direct deposit of formerly illegal political contributions
to campaign accounts.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Capitol Hill intern indicted for refusing to have sex with congressman.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75 percent.

[ka4vvc]

As for all Senator Kerry's Purple Heart medals, it might be interesting to know how many of the others in Mr. Kerry's unit were wounded at the same time he was. #During my one year tour in RVN (1966-1967), #I don't think I ever heard of or saw any actions that produced only one or two very light casualties. #I may be wrong and it may be possible but maybe things were different after 1967.

73 de KA4VVC