WOULD YOU SHOOT A LOOTER? [Archive]

KF0RT

08-18-2004, 01:22 AM

Hmmm...

My first take would be to shoot the bastid. The downside of this is that in most cases, this could easily get you a manslaughter (or even 2nd degree murder) conviction in the U.S. where you'd probably do three to five in a place that's not very nice. If caught http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

Legally, it's only a good shoot if it's in self-defense, and property crimes don't generally qualify. Here in Colorado, we make an exception for arson, though. If someone is about to light a fire, you can legally use lethal force to stop him/her. We also have the "Make my day" law that cuts homeowners a lot of slack should they happen to kill someone who is tresspassing.

Pack heat? Hell yeah...

K9STH

08-18-2004, 01:28 AM

In Texas a person has an absolute right to protect his/her abode, place of business, etc. Now, if the body of the "offender" is outside of the building then things can get "sticky". However, many a public safety officer "unofficially" will give you time to pull the body back inside the building and maybe even help a bit!

You don't want to "argue" with a shotgun, especially at short range!

I have owned a U.S. Carbine calibre .30 M-1 since my freshman year in college (over 40 years). Too many people have seen the war movies and "assume" that it is the M-2 variant (full automatic). Of course it is just semi-automatic, but the average criminal (not the drug dealers with the Uzi, etc.) doesn't know the difference and they "tend" not to argue with it as well!

I wish that my brother would find my father's Winchester M-97 12 gauge "pump" shotgun. It originally belonged to the county sheriff and was the "riot gun" version. The barrel is like 0.1 inches longer than the minimum legal length, etc. It holds 5 rounds and can be devestating! The same model was used by the U.S. troops in the Phillipines during the early years of the 20th century and even by a number of our troops in Viet Nam. Loaded with 00 buckshot it is very lethal at close range.

Glen, K9STH

ki4bgo

08-18-2004, 01:32 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 17 2004,18:41)]#Would you, in good conscience, take them out?

I WOULD NOT HESITATE TO INVEST IN A WELL PLACED BULLET.

Am I alone in my outrage?

As for contractors preying on the misfortune of others......nevermind. #That's another ugly thread.
Those poor people have lost practically everything, and then they have some sleazebags come by and take what's left? I say yes... I'd take 'em out for sure! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

KA9VQF

08-18-2004, 01:35 AM

Loaded with 00 its lethal at medium range as well and will have 'em cleaning their shorts even if you are well out of range.

gw4rcm

08-18-2004, 01:36 AM

Yes, but where do you stop? whos'e next on the list?
the local burglar? the mugger?the guy who cuts you up at traffic lights, anybody who pisses you off.leave it to law enforcers that is what they are paid to do.leave the ghung ho to the experts.creating a crime to solve another is no answer.

73
Dennis

k6pme

08-18-2004, 01:41 AM

Quote[/b] (gw4rcm @ Aug. 17 2004,18:36)]whos'e next on the list?
the local burglar? the mugger?
YUP!

KA9VQF

08-18-2004, 01:41 AM

Yes most law enforcement officials do tend to take a dim view of vigilantes.

However if you find them in your stuff, what are you going to do?

Yell at them?

Suppose that doesn’t stop them.

I’m guessing that any weapon that comes to hand will be in your hand and you will take appropriate measures.

I’m not advocating violence but.....

If they are armed they wouldn’t think twice.

Remember any tool is a weapon if you hold it right.

KC9ECI

08-18-2004, 01:42 AM

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Aug. 17 2004,19:28)]the average criminal (not the drug dealers with the Uzi, etc.) doesn't know the difference and they "tend" not to argue with it as well!
Not all Uzi owners are drug dealers. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

KF0RT

08-18-2004, 01:53 AM

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ Aug. 17 2004,19:28)]In Texas a person has an absolute right to protect his/her abode, place of business, etc. #Now, if the body of the "offender" is outside of the building then things can get "sticky". #However, many a public safety officer "unofficially" will give you time to pull the body back inside the building and maybe even help a bit!
Glen,
This is exactly what Colorado's "Make my day" law addresses. We get to leave the body outside without any undue penalty. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Saves the coroner a little work and keeps the citizens from messing with the crime scene.

People outside the U.S. must think we're absolutely barbaric. One part of me thinks that's great! Got too many people here already. Truth is, though, Colorado has about 4.5 million people, the law has been in effect for 6-7 years now, and I think this law has been used twice.

73, Rob (KFØRT)

N7AAO

08-18-2004, 01:56 AM

Just remember:

Criminals prefer unarmed victims!

Oops, I just realized, "criminal" is not politically correct... I suppose we should call them "legally challenged individuals."

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 02:17 AM

I read in the local news paper of 5 - 8 folks being arrested for LOOTING

Are there any cases of a looter getting beat up or shot yet ? Tempers are getting shorter by the day in those areas.

w6ez

08-18-2004, 02:28 AM

It all depends on where the looting is taking place.
Here in Ca, one member of the people's work brigade can not shoot another member of the people's work brigade for stealing. There has to be a threat to life before you can use deadly force. If you do shoot some one you will be sued by the perp's family even if you were shooting the guy who was raping your wife.
Now if I were living in a place where it was legal to shoot someone for stealing another person's property I would be inclined to try out some of my neck turned .308 target loads.
Or at least act as a spotter for the National Guard "snipers".

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 02:36 AM

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
What we will problably see if a LOOTER getting shot to death, then on the local tv channels evening news will be the LOOTERS momma, crying and snifling and saying " he wuz such a good boy, he neva did nuthin wrong ! "

If he never did nothing wrong, what was he doing at the location of the incident ? (oops)

N7AAO

08-18-2004, 02:38 AM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 17 2004,19:36)]If he never did nothing wrong, what was he doing at the location of the incident ? (oops)
EP, ya gotta quit making so much sense! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

KD7WHQ

08-18-2004, 02:44 AM

If he comes in in the dead of night....

WA5KRP

08-18-2004, 02:53 AM

AOL had an interesting news story about a pastor trying to help his community through this ordeal. He endured the hardships of Hurricane Andrew. He said within the next two or three days the stench of destruction will dominate the nostrils, essentials will remain in short supply, electricity will stay a distant dream, porta-pots begin to overflow, and tempers flare.

I don't doubt this man for a second. But I gotta tellya, I'm not going to jump on a bandwagon of sympathy. These folks have had a free ride for years - weather wise - and it's that hellish moment when it's time to pay the fiddler.

Look at a map. Florida is surrounded by water that can turn hostile quicker than a cat can lick its ass. Hell - IT JUST HAPPENED. AGAIN. Just watch what's coming. City, county, state, and federal officials are going to be burned in effigy for failing to take care of people who chose to live in a disaster zone.

Just like FEMA did locally in San Antonio following floods, people living in disaster prone areas are going to have to be told in no uncertain terms there are places you can choose to live, but if you make that choice you should be prepared to deal with the consequences. In some San Antonio areas, rebuilding was flat out NOT an option.

Florida and FEMA need to make the same tough decisions. As KA8NCR indicated in a previous thread, we'll probably see the insurance industry impose significant pressure toward this end.

WA5KRP
Texas

K4JSR

08-18-2004, 02:58 AM

Kill a felon at the scene = crime rate goes down.
Be a liberal at the scene + crime rate goes up.

An armed society is, by necessity, a polite society.

RCM, our muggers are usually armed with assorted deadly
weapons. I would kill one while he was in the commission
of his crime as quickly as he would kill me.
I am no vigilante and I do not go around looking for
criminals committing crimes, but I have a license to pack
and the training to use deadly force if necessary.
People don't like, then just don't do anything that puts
others in mortal danger and you'll have no problem from
me. Except for maybe a few bad puns!

By the way, Glen, STH, just a few miles from where you are visiting your daughter/grand daughter/ assorted kin,
is the town of Kennesaw, Ga. The town has an ordinance
requiring homeowners to have a gun in the house.
There had not been any violent killings in Kennesaw
until some travelling dopers had a shoot out at a motel
along I-75.
I like Kennesaw's method of "home heating"!

73, Cal K4JSR
Heatpack, Ga.

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 03:01 AM

I figure they have a " dusk to dawn " curfew. But that dont stop the looters. It just stops the HONEST folks.

I dont want no one getting shot or hurt, but if a half dozen to twenty folks get shot by the owners for looting over the next few days...the word will get out that the property owners aint gonna take no bull from any looters and they will go elsewhere...you can bet that about HALF of the looters are from within 20 - 50 miles of where they normally live and the other HALF are from any where else across this great nation looking for a fast buck.

We as amateurs might ought to keep our ears open for " unusual transmissions " from a possible stolen radio, or a rig that is being sold extremely cheap...possibly having just been stolen from a fellow amateur radio operator in the damaged areas of Florida.If it looks or sounds too good to be true/legal it problably is.LOOTERS will steal anything they can get their scummy fingers on, and that includes AMATEUR radio equipment.

I would not care if it were a $10,000 ICOM 7800 hf base station for $50, I could not buy it, my conscience would not let me. Now if it were a COBRA 29 gtl for $5 I might buy it, cause that is about all those rigs are worth even legally....nah I would not, I dont need no trashy cb rig cluttering up my shack !!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

So, in closing ( aint he thru yet ? He is longer - winded than George Kerry !! )... keep your ears open for LOOTERS or some of their scummy friends trying to sell stolen AMATEUR radio equipment from the hurricane stricken areas of Florida...listen on HF, 2 meter repeaters, wherever you might hear folks talking and some one breaks in with a rig for sale...just be cautious.99% are ok, we just have to be alert for that 1 in 100.

73

AI4EP

KB1KIX

08-18-2004, 03:01 AM

"Officer, I swear I saw him with a weapon - I felt my life was in danger!"

Jonathan

w6ez

08-18-2004, 03:03 AM

Quote[/b] ]By the way, Glen, STH, just a few miles from where you are visiting your daughter/grand daughter/ assorted kin,
is the town of Kennesaw, Ga. The town has an ordinance
requiring homeowners to have a gun in the house.
There had not been any violent killings in Kennesaw
until some travelling dopers had a shoot out at a motel
along I-75.
I like Kennesaw's method of "home heating"!

I have heard stories about when a town passes such a law that the crime rates drop. I sure wish I lived someplace where they had such an ordinance.

k6pme

08-18-2004, 03:32 AM

In the Republik of Kalifornia?

k6pme

08-18-2004, 03:33 AM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 17 2004,20:01)]We as amateurs might ought to keep our ears open for " unusual transmissions " from a possible stolen radio, or a rig that is being sold extremely cheap...possibly having just been stolen from a fellow amateur radio operator in the damaged areas of Florida.If it looks or sounds too good to be true/legal it problably is.LOOTERS will steal anything they can get their scummy fingers on, and that includes AMATEUR radio equipment.
Excellent point! Especially e-bay.

KI4FVX

08-18-2004, 05:04 AM

Quote[/b] (gw4rcm @ Aug. 17 2004,18:36)]Yes, but where do you stop? whos'e next on the list?
the local burglar? the mugger?the guy who cuts you up at traffic lights, anybody who pisses you off.leave it to law enforcers that is what they are paid to do.leave the ghung ho to the experts.creating a crime to solve another is no answer.

73
Dennis
I have to agree with you...........finally............some common sense.

N8CPA

08-18-2004, 08:48 AM

Yes, thieves should be shot! We'll keep the reason real simple. #

An honest man trades a part of his life, his time, for the materials of his prosperity. #Whoever deprives him of that effectively murders the part of his life that he spent earning it. #Murder is a capital offense. #Shoot the sumbich!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

N8CPA

08-18-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 17 2004,22:36)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
What we will problably see if a LOOTER getting shot to death, then on the local tv channels evening news will be the LOOTERS momma, crying and snifling and saying " he wuz such a good boy, he neva did nuthin wrong ! "

If he never did nothing wrong, what was he doing at the location of the incident ? #(oops)
Sorry, Robert, you're wrong. Those mothers always say, "He never done nuffin' wron' to nobody! Boohoohoo!"

Notice how there is rarely a father, except rarely a minister or priest, lamenting the loss.

af2cw

08-18-2004, 08:57 AM

Maybe shooting the looter is a bit much http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

If you're close enough to the fool, maybe some blunt force
trauma around the head and shoulders with a Louisville
slugger would be best. Less mess anyway http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

ae4fa

08-18-2004, 09:20 AM

Quote[/b] ]Less mess anyway
Not really. Not when you'd have all those backhoes conveniently nearby . . .

08-18-2004, 09:31 AM

Trouble with beating them up is that the State (meaning thee and me) pays the bill for the SOB.

It's rather amazing how, when the word gets around the local area that 'looters will be greeted by a well-placed bullet' that things tend to settle down rather quickly! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Two things a looter can't outrun..

A bullet....
Radio waves..

The first WILL stop 'em..
The second will help someone who has the first one stop 'em...

k6pme

08-18-2004, 11:57 AM

Sorry to dispute you hg, but a Louisville Slugger make's a considerably bigger mess than a single well placed .22 round.

I've seen both. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

And I can buy a whole lot of .22's for the price of a slugger.

af2cw

08-18-2004, 12:04 PM

True if using small caliber ammo. All I have here are .357 &
9mm. My favorite is my Walther P-38, had to work the ramp
to chamber hollowpoints, but works like a champ now http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

K3UD

08-18-2004, 01:57 PM

The gougers are almost as bad. $10 for a bag of ice, $5.00 each for C and D cell batteries, $10 for a 4 pack of double A, the $25.95 fleabag motel room going for almost $200, 2 KW generators going for $1,000+ and $10,000 for a work crew to remove a tree from a roof. All chronicled on CNN, FOX, and GMA over the last 2 days.

73
George
K3UD

KC5SAS

08-18-2004, 03:25 PM

I say yes. #I would always have one of my AR-15s and one of my Ruger 9mm pistols within reach and in sight ready to use.

K9STH

08-18-2004, 03:36 PM

Something to think about:

A dead person gets buried. One that is wounded, injured, etc., often sues and usually wins even though he/she was in the wrong.

Glen, K9STH

K4JSR

08-18-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 18 2004,06:57)]The gougers are almost as bad. $10 for a bag of ice, $5.00 each for C and D cell batteries, $10 for a 4 pack of double A, the $25.95 fleabag motel room going for almost $200, 2 KW generators going for $1,000+ and $10,000 for a work crew to remove a tree from a roof. All chronicled on CNN, FOX, and GMA over the last 2 days.

73
George
K3UD
If you think that is price gouging, considering that getting these goods and services to a disaster area is
riskier and more expensive than in business as usual
times, consider the price of a soft drink at a movie
theater or sporting event. Who are the more profligate
greed mongers now?

Getting back to gut shooting looters and other criminal
trash (Cheaper than trying and failing to rehabilitate),
consider this article written by a college professor:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20040818.shtml

Sorry Glen, but North Avenue Trade School didn't get a
passing grade this time! Looks like times have changed
for the worse since our days there!
Not surprisingly, Emory University made the list of shame
also. Glen, do you realize what an anomaly it is to grow up conservative living in the shadows of Emory? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I hope that everyone realizes that the above smiley was
a sardonic laugh!

73, Cal K4JSR http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
Close to a Varsity, Ga.

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 04:13 PM

IF the mayors, city council folks, police chiefs, etc were NOT so busy with their other new duties...

They could go to these FLEA BAG motels and tell the manager / owner to either " bring your prices back down to normal prices or lock this place up " !!

or

have the premises confiscated and then rent it out to the families that need a place to stay, courtesy of the county, state, usa .

Same with the folks selling a bag of ice for high prices...hit them in the eye, then CHARGE THEM for the ice to keep the swelling down
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

any thing else they can do to "fight back " from the " rip off artists "

I wonder how stores like wal-mart, etc that ARE able to open are selling these items and more ...are their prices UP too, or about the usual prices you see in other parts of the nation ?

and I thought the only HIGH prices were for the USED items listed here on this site....I wonder if these folks would BUY the same unit for what they are trying to SELL it to other fellow amateur radio operators for ?

just a question

73

AI4EP

WA5KRP

08-18-2004, 04:30 PM

I received the following email from David, KD5NNH. #He in turn, got it from a friend of his living in Orlando. #I do not envy the sender, but her situation is not as dire as others. #Any way you slice it, much of Florida is a cluster boink.

Quote[/b] ]
Hi all,

I just thought you would be interested in reading a little something from a friend of mine in Orlando. Sorta puts it all in perspective.

Dave - KD5NNH

************************************************** ****************************************

****************************
Hi Dave,

Today is Wednesday and I'm just getting back to work. #We lost power Friday
night at 8pm and were without until last night 12:30am. #It has been a
challenging time. #Mom flew off to CA on Sunday and my dad cancelled his
trip down since we were without power. #So, I have had to go it alone with
the kids. #Driving the streets is like a war zone. #Most have no lights and
no one follows the four stop rule. #I got a flat tire on Saturday and spent
5 hours at the tire repair shop on Monday with the kids waiting for my turn
to get it repaired. #Our babysitter left because of the storm to visit
family and I had no where to leave the kids. #I ended up finding a friend of
a friend to watch them Wed - Fri for $200. #I spent most of the last couple
of days cleaning up my yard from debris and damage. #All I have is a hand
saw to cut up limbs that are about 5" - 6" in diameter. #Hopeful the worst
is over. #It still took me an hour to drive to work this morning. #At least
we are all safe and healthy. #That's the report from Orlando - my first and
hopefully last hurricane.

Deb

W0UZR

08-18-2004, 04:59 PM

I was only able to read the first 2 pages of this, and that's all I could hack.

I agree that looters after a catastrophe is despicable, and a good part of me would want to shoot the person too. Is it right? Is it wrong?

It really takes me back that I'm sitting here with a bunch of murderers. Cause it seems that a lot of you don't know if it is right or wrong. Just because you don't have any qualms with shooting the #$&*% doesn't make it right.

The Bible says That we are not to kill. And says, "Vengeance is Mine" the Lord says. Also if we hold murder in our heart, to God, that is the same exact thing as killing the guy.. God says 'I will repay". And "If a person would take something from you, let him have it, and don't demand it back" "If he takes your jacket, give him your shirt also"

So you "GO AHEAD.,.,.,PULL THAT TRIGGER !!

I'm sure as heck glad I'm not going to be in your shoes on the day when we all are going to be standing before God !

WA5KRP

08-18-2004, 05:07 PM

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 18 2004,11:59)]It really takes me back that I'm sitting here with a bunch of murderers. Cause it seems that a lot of you don't know if it is right or wrong. #Just because you don't have any qualms with shooting the #$&*% doesn't make it right.
We see things differently.

WA5KRP
Texas

w6ez

08-18-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote[/b] ]The Bible says That we are not to kill. And says, "Vengeance is Mine" the Lord says. Also if we hold murder in our heart, to God, that is the same exact thing as killing the guy.. God says 'I will repay". And "If a person would take something from you, let him have it, and don't demand it back" "If he takes your jacket, give him your shirt also"

The exact Hebrew wording of this biblical phrase is lo tirtzack which accurately translates as "any kind of killing whatsoever."

So unless one does not kill anything (this include the food you eat) you are a sinner and will pay for it.
And since plants are considerd 'life' we are all in big trouble.

reference.

the Complete Hebrew /English Dictionary by Dr. Reuben Alcalay

or a quicke version at:

translation (http://www.thenazareneway.com/thou_shalt_not_kill.htm)

k6pme

08-18-2004, 05:13 PM

I have the right to defend me and mine. Would I arbitrarily run around looking to shoot people? No, of course not.

KC5SAS

08-18-2004, 05:34 PM

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 18 2004,09:59)]So you "GO AHEAD.,.,.,PULL THAT TRIGGER !!

I'm sure as heck glad I'm not going to be in your shoes on the day when we all are going to be standing before God !
Well, since I don't believe in your god or the holy book you quote I have no reason to fear being judged by it's standards.
Armed, Atheist and disaster ready.

KA3RFE

08-18-2004, 05:52 PM

I believe the mored accurate translation of the Hebrew word is "commit murder" Otherwise, all the instances in the Mosaic code which call for the death penalty for different offenses wouldn't be allowable.

And don't forget "Thou shall not steal..."

Shooting a looter wouldn't be an act of venegence.

Considering the apparent state of almost-anarchy in Florida right now, people are on their own and must do what they have to do to protect whatever they still have that's intact.

And, I wouldn't shoot without a warning first, as I said earlier. I don't want to shoot if I can just scare them away. That's the ideal use of a firearm and it happens thousands of times per year. It's documented.

73, Pete KA3RFE

N7AAO

08-18-2004, 06:01 PM

Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 18 2004,10:34)]Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 18 2004,09:59)]So you "GO AHEAD.,.,.,PULL THAT TRIGGER !!

I'm sure as heck glad I'm not going to be in your shoes on the day when we all are going to be standing before God !
Well, since I don't believe in your god or the holy book you quote I have no reason to fear being judged by it's standards.
Armed, Atheist and disaster ready.
Hey, SAS... if you don't believe in gravity, does that mean you would float above the ground?

Was the earth flat before people started believing it was round?

Was the moon made of green cheese before people began believing it was actually rock?

Belief or lack thereof does not negate reality. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

kn6z

08-18-2004, 06:04 PM

Which looters deserve a bullet?

How about one stealing a loaf of bread?

A blanket?

Bandages?

A flashlight?

A radio?

Tools?

A cheap watch?

Diamond jewelry?

A giant-screen TV?

A stereo?

A fur coat?

A bedroom set?

KC5SAS

08-18-2004, 06:05 PM

KN6Z,
In answer to your question- ALL OF THE ABOVE.
The hardest decision I'd face wouldn't be whether to shoot or not to shoot but which gun to use.
Onward Atheist Militia,
Forming up for war,
With a darwin fish decal,
pasted to our front door.
http://www.geocities.com/sraacke/gun

kn6z

08-18-2004, 06:21 PM

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 18 2004,11:01)]Belief or lack thereof does not negate reality.
Nor does belief in superstition create reality.

N7AAO

08-18-2004, 06:23 PM

KN6Z, KC5SAS, I'll make ya a deal.

After all of us are dead, let's look each other up and compare notes about who was right. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

k6pme

08-18-2004, 06:28 PM

Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 18 2004,11:05)]http://www.geocities.com/sraacke/gun
So which one is you?

kn6z

08-18-2004, 08:09 PM

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 18 2004,11:23)]After all of us are dead, let's look each other up and compare notes about who was right.
You can come down and see me on my pulpit of brimstone. But I won't have time for your gloating -- I'll be too busy debunking religion.

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 08:20 PM

yep...let us see what the daily paper and the network evening news ( gonna be hard to watch all 3 with only 1 tv...need new batteries in the remote control )...so see what the LOOTERS and thieves are doing in Florida...stay tuned, it may get worse over yonder !!

W5MEJ

08-18-2004, 08:45 PM

Quote[/b] (G7HEU @ Aug. 17 2004,17:24)]When I said 'yes' I would shoot a looter I didn't mention where I might point my Charles Boswell.
Now that is the way to stop the bad guy with style...Very nice choice of shotgun!

73
Chuck

N7AAO

08-18-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote[/b] (kn6z @ Aug. 18 2004,13:09)]Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 18 2004,11:23)]After all of us are dead, let's look each other up and compare notes about who was right.
You can come down and see me on my pulpit of brimstone. #But I won't have time for your gloating #-- I'll be too busy debunking religion.
I might help you out!

See, I don't have a "religion," I have a relationship. It just happens that this relationship is with God.

KF0RT

08-18-2004, 09:05 PM

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 18 2004,12:01)]Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 18 2004,10:34)]Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 18 2004,09:59)]So you "GO AHEAD.,.,.,PULL THAT TRIGGER !!

I'm sure as heck glad I'm not going to be in your shoes on the day when we all are going to be standing before God !
Well, since I don't believe in your god or the holy book you quote I have no reason to fear being judged by it's standards.
Armed, Atheist and disaster ready.
Hey, SAS... if you don't believe in gravity, does that mean you would float above the ground?

Was the earth flat before people started believing it was round?

Was the moon made of green cheese before people began believing it was actually rock?

Belief or lack thereof does not negate reality. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Seen the Easter Bunny lately? Santa Clause?

N0KLT

08-18-2004, 09:10 PM

Quote[/b] (gw4rcm @ Aug. 17 2004,19:36)]Yes, but where do you stop? whos'e next on the list?
the local burglar? the mugger?the guy who cuts you up at traffic lights, anybody who pisses you off.leave it to law enforcers that is what they are paid to do.leave the ghung ho to the experts.creating a crime to solve another is no answer.

73
Dennis
Old Son,

You break into my house and threaten me or mine, and your a$$ is next. Take that to the bank.

If there is a law enforcer on the spot, I will gladly leave it to him since he is better armed and most likely a much better shot then I am. Protecting my home and family is not a crime, or at least isn't where I live.

Gary NØKLT

k6pme

08-18-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Aug. 18 2004,14:05)]Seen the Easter Bunny lately? #Santa Clause?
Both are useless perversions.

WA2ZDY

08-18-2004, 09:20 PM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 17 2004,23:01)]I dont want no one getting shot or hurt, but if a half dozen to twenty folks get shot by the owners for looting over the next few days...the word will get out that the property owners aint gonna take no bull from any looters and they will go elsewhere...
Remember the case of Bernie Goetz in the New York City subway some years ago.

He was accosted by a group of fine young men who merely asked him politely for a little pocket change he might spare to help them further their educations. Funny thing of course was they each had screwdrivers point at old Bernie.

So feeling as though he was about to be assaulted or killed (why else would they appear ready to stick a screwdriver into him?) he drew his illegal (this is NY City afterall) revolver and shot each one of this young men. This allowed him to escape.

He was prosecuted only for the gun possession and I believe beat all the civil suits filed against him too by the fine young men. And there was absolutely ZERO crime in the subways for over a week. The word got out.

Yes, the criminals can be scared too, but not around here. And they SHOULD be scared. But alas . . .

Here's the thing about asking "what's worse, being a looter or a killer?" The difference is, the looter chose that to be his response to this tragedy. He chose to do so knowing the consequences. So in those areas where gunplay has already started, remember, the crooks know the deal and should have no complaint if they get hurt or killed.

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 09:22 PM

...if you put your bifocals on upside down the title looks like it says

" Would you loot a shooter "

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

AI4EP

k6pme

08-18-2004, 09:30 PM

Very good point EP and pretty much got right to the gist of the thread. As was said earlier, an armed society is a polite society.

kn6z

08-18-2004, 09:42 PM

Quote[/b] (N7AAO @ Aug. 18 2004,14:02)]See, I don't have a "religion,"
Oops. The "R" word. Sorry.

KA9VQF

08-18-2004, 09:45 PM

Many years ago I was pursuing a career in law enforcement. When it came time for the firearms bit of the course we were instructed on the proper use of such devices.

The official mandate was to use deadly force only as a last resort.

The unofficial ’word to the wise’ was make a good job of it.

Which meant, if it comes down to it make sure they won’t be tying you or the department up in court for the next several years, finish the job. Times change.
Now it is nothing for surviving family members {not necessarily immediate family members} to sue for damages for ’wrongful death’ even several many years the incident. Even if the ’alleged’ wrong doer was caught ’red handed’ and in many cases instigated the discharging or ordinance.

ai4ep

08-18-2004, 10:18 PM

There is no need in going overboard on the thread and bringing in all of these " scenerios ".

The basic point has already been made ( read through past posts. )

73

AI4EP

KF0RT

08-18-2004, 10:59 PM

Quote[/b] (KG6QQL @ Aug. 18 2004,15:14)]Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Aug. 18 2004,14:05)]Seen the Easter Bunny lately? #Santa Clause?
Both are useless perversions.
All articles of faith, my lad... The only difference is the depth.

kj5t

08-18-2004, 10:59 PM

No I would not!

I don't agree with looters, and theives are horrible.. but you are going to go around possibly killing people because they steal somthing from you?

That 56 year old man who shot the teenager breaking into his house, that man deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life, thats not self defense thats murder..

It would be different if the teenager had a gun aswell.. I mean if there was a looter pointing a gun at you and trying to steal you money, I would give him my money, and then I would call the cops.. but if I had a gun, and I had to use it I would.. but only as a last resort..

Okay, so maybe the last resort is too late.. but then again if the other guy had a weapon, that is Self Defense, otherwise its murder..

KC7YRA

08-18-2004, 11:08 PM

When it comes to the protection of my property and family I would die or make somebody else die to protect it. To allow somebody to come and take someting from your house is just the same as allowing somebody from another country take our freedom. Why can we shoot somebody who crashed into buildings and scared us but somebody who stole our personal property and scared us can get away scoot free because it is SMALL POTATOS. I believe VERY strongly in god and the compassion that he felt. I also belive that killing them with kindness and HEAP BURNING COALS UPON THEIR HEAD are great passages from the bible but I also believe and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. You take something from me I take something back. Since I don't know what you have or where you life I am going to take a large chunk of hide from you, then you can keep the bike. Also I have the quote that same say the bible also says good will be the ultimate judge, Well who is to say that me shooting them is not the sentence? David killed Goliath. Why can't I kill a looter,

Just my thoughts,

Brad

WA5KRP

08-18-2004, 11:11 PM

Quote[/b] (KD5OWO @ Aug. 18 2004,17:59)]That 56 year old man who shot the teenager breaking into his house, that man deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life, thats not self defense thats murder..
We disagree. A 56 year old man v. teenager.

Why is that teenager breaking into his house? Why should a 56 year old man risk his life taking on a looter - A GD THIEF? What tells that 56 year old man his life is not in jeapordy when his presence is discovered by the teenager breaking into his house?

Your post is absurd.

WA5KRP
Texas

WA2ZDY

08-18-2004, 11:12 PM

OWO and others . .. You cannot imagine what you would do "if" until you've met crime eye to eye.

Trust me, it changes a person.

w5lda

08-18-2004, 11:28 PM

Break into my home and threaten me or mine!
You will be worm food quicker than the blink of an eye,and i dont miss http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

ae4fa

08-18-2004, 11:55 PM

The perspective from my line of work is kind of interesting in that it quite often results in a change of opinion.

When I interview candidates for a job, I always ask for their views on the death penalty. The answer doesn't really matter to me. I just use it as a point of reference.

About half of the folks I've hired told me in the interview that the were adamantly against the death penalty. As soon as their skill level gets to a certain point, I assign them to death penalty cases.

Our work is quite intensive. We deal with the aftermath and what it does to people and families. In 20+ years, I have yet to have one of these initially anti-death penalty applicants who were hired to maintain that view past their first trial. And I have yet to have one who initially favored the death penalty change their opinion.

As for the topic at hand, I see that some would label it murder. I prefer to think of it as Field Adjudication.

K8YS

08-19-2004, 12:09 AM

remember these words of wisdom from a retired police officer...

Son, if you must shoot, shoot to kill. When the smoke clears, you only want one story told".

Dad told me that in 1967, of of the riot years in Cincinnati.

w6ez

08-19-2004, 12:18 AM

Quote[/b] ]Okay, so maybe the last resort is too late.. but then again if the other guy had a weapon, that is Self Defense, otherwise its murder..

In some states it is still murder unless he shoots you first.

Quote[/b] ]Son, if you must shoot, shoot to kill. When the smoke clears, you only want one story told".

What's that other saying, "it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6..?" I think that's the way it goes.

ae4fa

08-19-2004, 12:24 AM

Quote[/b] ]In some states it is still murder unless he shoots you first
Terms, of course, differ from state to state. What one state may refer to as "murder 3" another might deem "involuntary manslaughter." But, please, name one state where the law states you must be shot first - and cite the appropriate section of law.

Quote[/b] ]it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6
Exactly correct.

K8YS

08-19-2004, 12:29 AM

Quote[/b] (w6ez @ Aug. 17 2004,18:18)]Quote[/b] ]Okay, so maybe the last resort is too late.. but then again if the other guy had a weapon, that is Self Defense, otherwise its murder..

In some states it is still murder unless he shoots you first.
Quote[/b] ]

What's that other saying, "it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6..?" I think that's the way it goes.

yes, that was one of dads other favorite wisdoms.

Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".

I am glad that we live in a civilized state... we are allowed to defend ourselves and do not need for the bad guy to shoot first. If a trespasser is in your home, it is assumed that they are not there collecting for the sheriff's youth fund.

ai4ep

08-19-2004, 12:42 AM

.......practice shots ?

I think NOT !!

Do you practice shot when hunting

dove
squirrel
deer
or any other animal ?

NO

so ( like when hunting animals ) make every shot count !

...cuz...( in a way ) a looter is worse than animal..intent to TAKE from you.

a looter can be compared to a terrorist.

Since both types want to either TAKE from you or scare/terrorize you or your relatives/friends.

Neither group is up to any good ( and every one knows that the opposite of good is EVIL ).

Another form of evil is GREED...greed, like the folks selling a bag of ice for $10.00 .

Greed , like the folks selling flashlight batteries for $5 to $10 per package.

Greed, like the folks fixing holes in car tires for waay too much profit.

Greed, like the folks renting out $29 motel room for over $200 per night.

Maybe these folks need a dose of their own medicine, or their friends & families. { no, these kind of folks problably aint got no friends } -----there he goes with that " aint got no " stuff...again !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Tragedies like Hurricane CHARLEY tend to bring out two groups of folks, the vast majority of them are GOOD...but...
a very small percentage of those are up to no good or EVIL.

73

AI4EP

W0UZR

08-19-2004, 12:47 AM

IIIEEEIIIYYOOo!
I go to work, and to the doctors office and come back and ~*Poof*~ There are 3 more pages. Everyone is retired, I guess.

OK ! In my last post, I didn't mean that a guy shouldn't defend his family
I didn't mean that if the "Looter" has a gun, you shouldn't shoot.
I didn't mean that if you are "On your Own," and there are several hooligans descending on your place, that you don't have a right to shoot **IF** CLEARLY your life is in danger, or your family members are.

I support the use of deadly force in the right circumstances.

Even the Bible said that we have a right to defend ourselves.
But from what I read, it sounded like that if there are just one, or two looters, and it looks like that they are only going to take something and run, then SHOOT them !

We certainly have a right to defend ourselves, and our family. But before you pull that trigger, make sure your life, or your family's life are clearly in danger first. Or you will be the one in the clink.

ae4fa

08-19-2004, 01:02 AM

Quote[/b] ]OK ! In my last post, I didn't mean that a guy shouldn't defend his family
I didn't mean that if the "Looter" has a gun, you shouldn't shoot.
I didn't mean that if you are "On your Own," and there are several hooligans descending on your place, that you don't have a right to shoot **IF** CLEARLY your life is in danger, or your family members are.
Okay, so here's the check-list:

1. Does he have a gun or other weapon? Or, is that hidden hand possibly holding something?

2. Is he intent on causing you or your family harm?

3. Is he coming at you or running away?

4. If he is coming toward you, is there another reasonable explanation for his actions?

Now, snap your fingers. THAT is about how much time you have to complete the checklist.

w6ez

08-19-2004, 01:08 AM

Isn't it new Jersy where if a bad guy breaks into your house you have no right to defend yourself and must flee to the neighbor's house and if the bad guy follows you then you and the familyin that house must flee and so on and so on.. Or has that been changed.

In california it think the term is the right to not retreat. In our case you can defend yourself in your own home but you can only use equal force. So if he comes in your house and threatens to bust you up you can't shoot him.

In Connecticut a state employee on state property can not use a gun or even threaten to use a gun to protect his own life.
Executive Order #16 Governor Rowland 1999

ae4fa

08-19-2004, 01:10 AM

Quote[/b] ]In california it think the term is the right to not retreat. In our case you can defend yourself in your own home but you can only use equal force. So if he comes in your house and threatens to bust you up you can't shoot him.
Turn off the lights on your way out . . .

Let's examine, shall we, the concept of scale. Now, we have a 20-year old, 6'4" home invader armed with a baseball bat. You're saying Kaliphonia law says that the 72-year old, 5'6" homeowner with arthrities and a heart condition is limited to a baseball bat?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??

And that's "equal force?"

Again, PLEASE turn the lights off on your way out!

WA5KRP

08-19-2004, 01:14 AM

Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS.

WA5KRP
Texas

k6pme

08-19-2004, 01:18 AM

Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ Aug. 18 2004,17:24)]Quote[/b] ]In some states it is still murder unless he shoots you first
Terms, of course, differ from state to state. #What one state may refer to as "murder 3" another might deem "involuntary manslaughter." #But, please, name one state where the law states you must be shot first - and cite the appropriate section of law.
It's not quite codified in the Republik of Kalifornia but you can bet you will be charged if the incident isn't a TEXTBOOK PERFECT scenario.

The attitude here isn't what is right or wrong, it's "what can we charge him with" or "how much milage can we get".

K8YS

08-19-2004, 01:23 AM

EP,

While I am usually the first to scream like a stuck pig when it comes to your stated examples... I must sit back in ask...

At what point do you consider "capitalism" "greed"?? I'm am a greedy capitalist!

There is no one holding a gun to anyones head to stay in a $200/night roach motel, pay $400.00 for a used chain saw, or even a new one that Big Lots has on sale this week for $89.00??

It is what the market will bear, if you can sell ice water, then why not? In some circles you would be considered a sales genius, "salesman of the year".

It is not over priced if someone is willing to buy.

Would you call a ham dealer "greedy" if he sells an Icom IC-superrig for $1500 but another dealer sells them for $1100? How about the manufacturer that has the latest $4000 radio when a $500 radio does the same thing?

WA5KRP

08-19-2004, 01:26 AM

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 18 2004,19:47)]OK ! #In my last post, I didn't mean that a guy shouldn't defend his family
I didn't mean that if the "Looter" has a gun, you shouldn't shoot.
I didn't mean that if you are "On your Own," and there are several hooligans descending on your place, that you don't have a right to shoot **IF** CLEARLY your life is in danger, or your family members are.

I support the use of deadly force in the right circumstances.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to make that clear in the first place?

And frankly, as one who has been "saved", I find arguments grasping onto the Bible for validity a demonstration, not of faith, but of desperation to show witness of what should not need to be spoken.

Please. Not in here. This is not a church or tabernacle.

WA5KRP
Faith, Texas

w6ez

08-19-2004, 01:26 AM

Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ Aug. 18 2004,18:10)]Quote[/b] ]In california it think the term is the right to not retreat. In our case you can defend yourself in your own home but you can only use equal force. So if he comes in your house and threatens to bust you up you can't shoot him.
Turn off the lights on your way out . . .

Let's examine, shall we, the concept of scale. Now, we have a 20-year old, 6'4" home invader armed with a baseball bat. You're saying Kaliphonia law says that the 72-year old, 5'6" homeowner with arthrities and a heart condition is limited to a baseball bat?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif??

And that's "equal force?"

Again, PLEASE turn the lights off on your way out!
In flordia that was exactly what was used in the defense of guy who broke in and got shot at by an 88 year old home owner. He claimed he had the right to defend himself when he killed the 88 year old guy who shot him while defending his house.

And let's face it..here in Ca if you are a wasp you better not shoot anyone who isn't a wasp or you will loose everything you own due to unending law suits even if you aren't convicted of murder.

KF0RT

08-19-2004, 01:29 AM

Good checklist, Bob.

Ultimately (and I said this before), the law of the land weighs in. And the law is pretty clear that theft alone does NOT predicate the death penalty. It requires a threat to your person (or someone else) before you are allowed to use lethal force.

A nit, perhaps, but understand that if you kill someone, you will be judged by the law. Understand also that this is a very messy business. In the U.S., we have both criminal courts and civil courts. The criminal court will hold you to the law, but anyone can sue in civil court. If the family of the person you shoot dies or becomes crippled, they can sue you for any number of reasons, whether justified or not. Remember O.J. Simpson -- found innocent in criminal court but guilty in civil court and the civil award was $33 million, IIRC.

All I'm saying is that before you pull the trigger, make sure you aren't throwing your own life away. This is a very heavy snap judgement you'll have to make in the heat of things if you ever have to face it.

And, you best be well trained. I recall a case a few years back where a guy found an intruder in his home in the middle of the night and shot first. Turned out to be his own daughter. If you can't identify the target, you have no business touching the trigger.

73, Rob (KFØRT)

KF0RT

08-19-2004, 01:33 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,19:26)]And frankly, as one who has been "saved", I find arguments grasping onto the Bible for validity a demonstration, not of faith, but of desperation to show witness of what should not need to be spoken.

Please. #Not in here. #This is not a church or tabernacle.
Thank you!!!

w6ez

08-19-2004, 01:37 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,18:14)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS.

WA5KRP
Texas
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif so many nits
so little time to pick

If typos are to be excused then
"every mistake I make from this day
onward is a typographical error."

K8YS

08-19-2004, 01:43 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 17 2004,19:14)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS.

WA5KRP
Texas
"THAN".....

JEEEZZZZZZZZZZZSUS I was only spellin' like it is pronounced...

OK?

Not like I was mocking texan-lish

ai4ep

08-19-2004, 01:58 AM

I wonder how well the 2 meter / 440 / 6 meter repeaters that have power are being used.....

also

those repeaters that are on the air...IF they have AUTO PATCH capabilities...how are they holding up ?

73

AI4EP

WA5KRP

08-19-2004, 02:09 AM

Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,20:43)]Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 17 2004,19:14)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. #I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS. #

WA5KRP
Texas
"THAN".....

JEEEZZZZZZZZZZZSUS I was only spellin' like it is pronounced...

OK?
OK.

Reckon that "a" made any difference?

WA5KRP
Texas

N7AAO

08-19-2004, 02:12 AM

Sheesh... now we're arguing over "then" and "than."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

KF0RT

08-19-2004, 02:16 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,19:14)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. #I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS. #

WA5KRP
Texas
Must be missing a brain cell on this one. The "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" is very common gun-rights banter. It refers to being tried by 12 (in a jury) vs. being carried by 6 (pallbearers).

Where did 8YS screw up? I'm pretty sure he's got it correct.

73, Rob (KFØRT)

K8YS

08-19-2004, 02:26 AM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Aug. 17 2004,20:16)]Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,19:14)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,19:29)]Actually he said "it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".
My friend. I hope that is a typo.

C'mon folks...........if you give a damn about your own opinion, take the time to say it right.

JEEEEEZUS.

WA5KRP
Texas
Must be missing a brain cell on this one. The "better judged by 12 than carried by 6" is very common gun-rights banter. It refers to being tried by 12 (in a jury) vs. being carried by 6 (pallbearers).

Where did 8YS screw up? I'm pretty sure he's got it correct.

73, Rob (KFØRT)
Rob, re-read what I said...

judged by 12, then carried by 6 -- should have said " judged by 12 THAN carried by 6".

My keyboard has a decided SW OH, almost NKY accent... it types as I would speak, not always within the rules of syntax.

I had Microsoft create language support my SWOH NKY keyboard.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ghostface.gif

WA5KRP

08-19-2004, 02:56 AM

Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,21:26)]Rob, re-read what I said...

judged by 12, then carried by 6 -- should have said judged by 12 THAN carried by 6".
Hey guys,

I get frustrated when people make perfectly valid points and blow it with a typo.

"it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".

Surely the original point is in complete juxstaposition with then. To be judged by 12 then carried by six suggests a jury gives a death sentence followed by a funeral.

I'll try to do better.

WA5KRP
Texas

08-19-2004, 03:08 AM

UZR.... I think.. if you do a PROPER study on the word 'KILL'. you will see that it is MORE accurately to be translated 'MURDER'.. which is a FAR cry from what you quote.

I ask you ONE question..

Have oyu EVER been on the receiving end of a lawless band of illegals who loot? Have you SEEN what these folks will do to people they encounter who attempt to defend what is rightfully and lawfully theirs (absent a superior degree of force)? Have you seen the terror and mayhem that occurs (especially after dark?) in these situations?

Well I and others have. Trust me.. in the case where there is ZERO law enforcement and/or very little chance of receiving protection from the authorities for some time..

You'd QUICKLY change your tune.

Again.. do a study on the word 'kill'.. you'll find that 'murder' is the proper word. THEN do a study on the word 'murder'.. I think you will find your understanding enlightened quite a bit.

As many have said.. Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried bysix!

Of course. YOU and I would NOT loot, neither would be entertain the thoughts of terrorizing others so naturally the application of lethal force is something that takes you aback.

K3FT

kn6z

08-19-2004, 03:23 AM

Quote[/b] (KC7YRA @ Aug. 18 2004,16:08)]Also I have the quote that same say the bible also says good will be the ultimate judge, Well who is to say that me shooting them is not the sentence? David killed Goliath. Why can't I kill a looter,
Let Jesus be your guide, Bible quoter.

Jesus would not interfere in the responsibility of appropriate judicial authorities. When one of two brothers approached Jesus out of a crowd and asked Him to settle a probate dispute, Jesus responded: Man, who made Me a judge or an arbitrator over you?? (Luke 12:14).

Besides the cleansing of the temple, which is a stretch as it is, did Jesus ever commit an act of violence?

kf7qq

08-19-2004, 03:25 AM

I would choke the mutha with my bare hands, and enjoy MY right, to defend my property and family.

K4JSR

08-19-2004, 06:54 AM

Quote[/b] (kf7qq @ Aug. 18 2004,20:25)]I would choke the mutha with my bare hands, and enjoy MY right, to defend my property and family.
I prefer two shots to center mass and one to the head.
Someone break into my house using stealth, I will auto-
matically assume that he/she/they/it (I like to be an
equal opportunity shooter!) are doing so with flagrant
disregard for my family's safety. I will shoot.
I will get a good view of my target before firing without
providing him a good view of me.
Before you bedwetting bleeding hearts out there cry,
"What if it is a fireman or a policeman trying to tell you
that your house is on fire"? Get a flaming grip on
reality! Someone in those circumstances will be making as much noise as possible.

To me gun control is having a clear view of your target,
knowing there are no innocents in the way to avoid
possible collateral deaths, two shots to central mass,
one to the head. Those are the rules at my house.
You don't like it, then don't come busting in! My pistol
is next to my bed when I am in my bedroom. Otherwise
the burglar may get a 12 gauge of double 0 followed
by a slug to central mass. I live in a rural area where it
would take Sheriff's Deputies several minutes to respond to a 911 call. The Sheriff in my county has a Citizen's
Law Enforcement Academy that has at least two sessions
per year. This Academy is not to train "vigilantes", but
inform citizens of their rights, law enforcement practices,
some actual Law Enforcement Academy training, Community Oriented Policing (COPS), Nosy Neighbors
(A neighborhood Watch program), Ride arounds with
Patrol Deputies on duty, and fire arm safety and marks-
manship training. I highly recommend that if your local
law enforcement agency has such "Citizen Police Academies" that you sign up for a session. You will
come away with an appreciation of what they face and
what your local agency's strengths and limitations are.
I have a couple of liberal friends who took the course and are now 2nd Amendment advocates!
John Wayne is quoted as saying, "Life is tough. It is a
lot tougher if you are stupid".
There are no criminals with your best interest at heart!

As far as the religious ramifications of all of this,
FT, KRP and AAO have covered it fairly well, IMHO.

73, May peace and good will prevail, pack heat if it doesn't! Cal K4JSR

Ps. My arthritis won't allow me the pleasure of choking
the mutha with my bare hands. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

N8CPA

08-19-2004, 08:44 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,22:56)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,21:26)]Rob, re-read what I said...

judged by 12, then carried by 6 -- should have said judged by 12 THAN carried by 6".
Hey guys,

I get frustrated when people make perfectly valid points and blow it with a typo. #

"it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".

Surely the original point is in complete juxstaposition with then. #To be judged by 12 then carried by six suggests a jury gives a death sentence followed by a funeral.

I'll try to do better.

WA5KRP
Texas
I agree. THAN is a preferential juxtaposition: "I'd rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6."

THEN is a sequence of events: Shoot, then tried, then adjudged, then executed, then buried.

The irony is, if the criminal makes you spend that much money on defense, the @$$4ole still wins.

k6pme

08-19-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JSR @ Aug. 18 2004,23:54)]"What if it is a fireman or a policeman trying to tell you
that your house is on fire"? #Get a flaming grip on
reality! #Someone in those circumstances will be making as much noise as possible.
Yup! We want to make as much noise as possible. By the time we're done the whole nieghborhood will be awake anyway.

W0UZR

08-19-2004, 03:10 PM

krp and rt

If you don't agree with what I say that's fine. But in this case, you don't agree with what God says, and He will tell you about that eventually.

We are all here to get closer to the truth about things, Right? And that can't be done without God in the picture. Without Him, there is no truth to begin with.

Yes, this isn't a Church or a tabernacle. But if you want the truth, or what's good, you aren't going to find it without including Him.

I have a right to say whatever I need to say. If you don't like me saying it, then think what ever you want with it.

Do I go around here telling you to shut up about things if I don't agree with you? (which there was plenty)

Then I should deserve the same respect.

If you don't agree with what I say, then do like I do.

Skip it. And read something else.

Evedintly you like going around Poo Pooing people.

08-19-2004, 03:17 PM

THE BEST FORM OF GUN CONTROL..

The BEST form of gun control is when I control MY gun and excercise that control in a useful and appropriate manner.

While I do not look forward to, relish, or otherwise delight in the thought that I *MIGHT* have to exert deadly force on another human being (or beings).. I WILL do so if *I* believe that *I or my family or those I am charged to protect* are threatened with harm or hurt.

As several have pointed out here..

'If you have NEVER been faced with the situation of having to make a split-second decision to "SHOOT OR NOT SHOOT" then you have ZERO idea of what it is like'.

That is why you train.. that is why you LEARN how to properly handle, care for, and use the weapon. THAT is why you practice and practice.

NOT because you want to be 'Quick Draw McGraw' but because you want to be able to - in that 'split second' between 'SHOOT or DON'T SHOOT!' make a proper decision.

IF you shoot. you want to shoot accurately and HIT what you aimed at and minimize the chance of collateral injury to others.

I've taken the 'Shoot! Don't Shoot!' courses AND have had training to use, care for, and properly utilize the weapons I own. I am QUITE reticent about pulling it and using it.. but I know.. IF I HAVE TO.. I shall - without reservations - do so and use it.

The BEST form of gun control is YOU controlling your own weapon!

K3FT

WA5KRP

08-19-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 19 2004,10:10)]krp........

Evedintly you like going around #Poo Pooing people.
I'm very fussy about the poople I peep.

WA5KRP
Texas

K0RGR

08-19-2004, 03:27 PM

When I went to 'cop school' out in the 'Gilded State' years ago, the only one who could even shoot a fleeing felon was a sworn peace officer. And that officer better be sure that he was, indeed, a fleeing felon. Daylight burglary was not a felony back then, at least.

There were some fairly rotten cases were people were prosecuted for defending themselves or their family members. The law was written in such a way that John Q. Public could use deadly force to defend himself, but not another person. If, however, they used deadly force to interrupt a criminal engaged in the act of committing a felony, that was justifiable homicide. But, most property crimes were not felonies. This came awfully close to what someone else cited as the requirement that you had to be shot first to shoot back.

So, use your gun at your own peril. If you fire warning shots, please fire them into the ground so the stray bullets don't kill some kid in the next block. If their getaway car is empty, waste a few rounds on it - I've had the pleasure of shooting up junked cars with various weapons, and shotguns with bear slugs are surprisingly destructive - they can crack engine blocks.

W0UZR

08-19-2004, 04:30 PM

Where I live, if the person busting in your house doesn't have a gun, you can't use a gun. If he has nothing but his fists, all you can defend yourself with is your fists.

If he has a baseball bat, then the most you can defend yourself with is a baseball bat. (but tell the intruder to wait a minute until you find your baseball bat)

If the intruder has a pellet gun, then you can't defend yourself with nothing bigger than a pellet gun. (be sure to ask the intruder if that's a real gun, or a pellet gun first)

Then finally, if the intruder has a real gun, then you can defend yourself with a real gun, but you can't shoot !! If the intruder shoots first, than you can. (be sure to ask the intruder to shoot at the wall so you can shoot him back)

Than that's the only way it's legal.

Last year, I watched 3 cases on the news of where home owners shot and killed an intruder. In two of the incidences two of the intruders had a gun, and one didn't, And the home owners are going to be sitting in jail for around 10 years.

So here, you make sure to sit the intruder at your table, and give him a cup of coffee, and that's the only thing you can do about the intruder. OH,,I almost forgot! You can call the police, (tell the intruder sit down and wait for the police), and when the police comes 10 or 15 minutes later, then they will deal with him. (be sure to give the intruder a cup of coffee while he's waiting)

PS, thanks krp, really appreciate that!

k3ft,,I'll never change my mind about shooting someone that isn't Clearly trying to kill me.

08-19-2004, 06:12 PM

UZR... the sad part about that comment about not killing someone unless you know he is going to kill you -- as it relates to someone breaking into your home -- is the following.

1) You USUALLY don't know they are there until they are THERE and you are confronted by them.

2) You don't know their intentions so you cannot judge that they 'only' want to rob you, lock you in the closet, just rape your wife, OR kill you UNTIL they actually demonstrate their intentions. <By that time.. it's a TAD late to decide "I think I might JUST have to use deadly force on this one!" http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif >

3) Due to the 'sudden nature' of the event your reaction time to THINK and CONSIDER whether or not he's out to kill, steal, rape, or just invade will USUALLY NOT permit you the luxury of deciding whether or not to exert deadly force. <THIS IS A REALITY. Talk to ANYONE who has been there. They will confirm this to be true>

4) The bad guys DEPEND on surprise, shock, and delayed reaction time to think to allow them to gain entrance, gain control, and do what they want to do.

As I ask ALL who espouse what you do..
"After the bad guy breaks in, assaults you, possibly rapes your wife or daughter and does serious bodily harm to you and yours, would you STILL feel it best to wait and see if he's gonna kill you before you serve him a 225 grain asprin?"

Amazing how one's perspective changes when confronted with the reality of things that ACTUALLY happen.

Your altruistic mindset is laudable.. but the reality of the fact of life that evil inhabits the earth and runs about doing evil offsets that as a viable course of action.

K3FT

N7AAO

08-19-2004, 06:23 PM

A cop once explained to me that in any shooting, there are going to be several people who are going to try to decide if what you did was right:

1) the supervisor on the scene (sergeant, lieutenant, captain, so on... for civilians it would be the cop)

2) the lawyers

3) the jury

4) the family of the victim

5) the victim, if he/she survives.

All those people have time to sit back and think hard on it. The shooter does not. He/she has a split second to react.

If more second-guessers would remember that, maybe things would make more sense.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

W0UZR

08-20-2004, 04:16 AM

Ya, I can shoot his but if he's raping my wife, and I already said that if your family is clearly in danger, then you are justified in using deadly force

It's not only your right to defend your family, it's your obligation. I didn't say to not to shoot someone if they are attacking your family. The comments I made earlier, I meant if it was a situation if it were just me and him. One on one.

ai4ep

08-20-2004, 05:01 AM

....looks like we have a few " what IF " situations materializing.

" what IF " situations occur 24 / 7 :

* what IF you had no power today and could not post your thoughts

* what IF I had no power today and I could not read your words

* what if this website shut down and no one could read any one elses posts ?

* what if it rains tomorrow ?

* what if it does not ?

* What IF the terrorists strike ?

so many what IF, no solid answers.....

73

AI4EP

k5rna

08-20-2004, 06:37 AM

Bet Glen can attest to this as he seems to keep up with the news.Here in TX.a year or so ago a man broke into a womans house late one night.She was in her 80s and blew him away with a 357mag.The police and news people called her a hero.Here in TX if you see some one stealing your car,hub caps or what ever you have the right to defend your property any way you see fit.And one other thing.I have bad news for the ones of you who believe in the easter bunny and santa claus.They are not real.Some may ask how i can be sure of this.The tooth fairy told me.So there.

kn6z

08-20-2004, 08:47 AM

Quote[/b] (k5rna @ Aug. 19 2004,23:37)]And one other thing.I have bad news for the ones of you who believe in the easter bunny and santa claus.They are not real.Some may ask how i can be sure of this.The tooth fairy told me.So there.
You still can't be sure, because even the tooth fairy cannot prove a negative.

W0UZR

08-20-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote[/b] ]....looks like we have a few " what IF " situations materializing.

" what IF " situations occur 24 / 7 :

* what IF you had no power today and could not post your thoughts

* what IF I had no power today and I could not read your words

* what if this website shut down and no one could read any one elses posts ?

* what if it rains tomorrow ?

* what if it does not ?

* What IF the terrorists strike ?

so many what IF, no solid answers.....

73

AI4EP

HUH?
How does that fit in to what everyone else is saying? Sometimes I think you post just to post something.

kc2jga

08-20-2004, 11:46 AM

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Aug. 17 2004,15:01)]I would not care if it were a $10,000 ICOM 7800 hf base station for $50, #I could not buy it, my conscience would not let me. Now if it were a COBRA 29 gtl for $5 I might buy it, cause that is about all those rigs are worth even legally....nah I would not, I dont need no trashy cb rig cluttering up my shack !! # #
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
If I could afford it at a price like that, I would buy it. Then I would make sure that the rightful owner got his rig back. Then, more than likely, the original owner might even pay me back. Maybe not all of it, at least some of it. I hope someone would do that for me at least.
73's
Mike

NJ4R

08-20-2004, 11:49 AM

if you can show you acted reasonable and prudent and that at the time you believed that you were in danger of serious bodily harm or possibly death ...at that point you have the right to use deadly force to stop that person or persons from injuring you....you need to be able to justify your actions...once you have STOPPED the threat you are responsible to contact the authorities for medical treatment of your attackers.....(hopefully you concentrated on you sight picture and trigger squeeze) once you have done that do not answer any questions from the police and ask for a ( oh how I hate to say this this)lawyer.....depending where in the US you live, some police officers and prosecutors frown on people defending themselves even tho it has been decided by the higher courts that the police are NOT responsible for your protection...only to keep peace in the public as a whole.... just something to think about.......and yes..Been There...done that and have the teeshirt.....

ai4ep

08-20-2004, 12:41 PM

To repeat what the ORIGINAL post of this thread was / is by wa5krp :

" Would you shoot a looter ? "

yes

AI4EP

08-20-2004, 04:29 PM

Would I shoot a looter? Only if he's threatening me with bodily harm. Any threat whatsoever, it's my life or theirs. Would I shoot someone entering my house at night? Again, same deal. If they have a weapon on them - they're dead. I don't have police training to properly disarm a perpetrator - so a bullet will do it for me. Again, it's my life or theirs.

K4JSR

08-20-2004, 06:15 PM

Quote[/b] (kb0uzr @ Aug. 20 2004,03:17)]Quote[/b] ]....looks like we have a few " what IF " situations #materializing.

" what IF " situations occur 24 / 7 :

* what IF you had no power today and could not post your thoughts

* #what IF I had no power today and I could not read your words

* what if this website shut down and no one could read any one elses posts ?

* #what if it rains tomorrow ?

* what if it does not ?

* What IF the terrorists strike ?

so many what IF, no solid answers.....

73

AI4EP

HUH?
How does that fit in to what everyone else is saying? Sometimes I think you post just to post something.
UZR, WHAT IF you are wrong about what EP posts?

Further more, what if several what ifs ganged up on you in the middle of the night? Would you shoot the next poor innocent what if that came along and busted into your house while you and your family are asleep?

I can assure you that if someone breaks into my house at night, when everyone is asleep, I will consider it to be
"prima facie" evidence that they are there to do bodily harm to me and my family. I do not care if the perp's family sues me for wrongful death. The perp will not
get any benefit from it. If the perp's family loses the law suit, which is almost certain in this county, my
countersuit for filing a frivolous suit will most certainly
force those idiots into bankruptcy. The absolute fact of
the matter is that no one ever breaks into another person's home at night, or any other time, with the idea
of doing good deeds for the occupants. Boy Scouts are
not trained that way! The idea of having sufficient time to analyze a perp's motives is simply ludicrous at best.

In all seriousness I pray that none of us has to face
a bad situation within the confines of our "castles",
but Scripture also advises that in dealing with our
world that we should "also be as wise as serpents".
I don't have fangs, but my little Cobra does!

73, Cal K4JSR
Shoot 'em if you got 'em, Ga.

W3MIV

08-20-2004, 06:17 PM

With credit to Tom Clancy: "Without remorse."

W0UZR

08-20-2004, 06:48 PM

JSR

Oh, I think I get it now. EP was referring "What if" in a burglar situation? I read it again, and it still doesn't make sense. How did you read that in there.

Make Sure Of Your Target !!

And Make Sure Shooting is Your Only Option !!

Because it's not going to be fun sitting in the clink for 7 to 10 years. I agree with you 100% on what you said referring to that.

And I have had a person break into my place when I was sleeping, and found this $&%# going through my wallet with a cigarette lighter to give him light, and I jumped out of bed and ran after him, he bolted out the door and I was behind him and chased him out the door and around the building. Then I couldn't see him. Here I am in my underwear running up and down the block trying to find him at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Lots of fun....

Oh,,PS I didn't find him. And if I did, I'm pretty sure he would have needed an ambulance.

K4JSR

08-20-2004, 07:04 PM

UZR, Pardon me while I chuckle at your reply.
I think shooting that miscreant would be preferable to facing the neighbors laughing at me running around in my underwear!
I honestly don't think that I would have shot that perp in the situation that describe, but he would have been held
for the Sheriff's Deputies at gunpoint. At my age cannot
hope to tussle with some one. If they want violence in
my house, they get ventilated. And yes, I am very careful where I shoot and always have full visual contact
with my target. I think that I am far more sporting with
that attitude than a burglar or home invader.

Just one more thought, what if the guy you chased away
was armed and you had cornered him?

73, Cal K4JSR

KI4DYA

08-20-2004, 07:12 PM

Oh! Oh! Me me me! I can answer that!

We wouldn't have read his post because he'd be dead.

*bows*
Thank you.

K0RGR

08-20-2004, 07:31 PM

The overriding rule was "If you have time to think about it, don't shoot!".

K4JSR

08-20-2004, 07:35 PM

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 20 2004,12:31)]The overriding rule was "If you have time to think about it, don't shoot!".
You could be right. Dead right! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/ghostface.gif

I would rather a zillion bad guys die than one innocent victim.

73, Cal K4JSR

K4JSR

08-20-2004, 07:36 PM

Have you noticed how this thread just keeps
"blasting away"? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

n0ov

08-20-2004, 08:54 PM

Yep. Most of the post seem to be using the ready, fire, aim approach.

(Don't think before they type http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif )

kb2fcv -- agree 100% with you. Capability, Opportunity, Intent

kc2kde

08-20-2004, 09:44 PM

Quote[/b] (KA3RFE @ Aug. 18 2004,13:52)]I don't want to shoot if I can just scare them away. That's the ideal use of a firearm and it happens thousands of times per year. It's documented.

73, Pete KA3RFE
Sorry, but the ideal use of a firearm is NOT to scare people.

W5HTW

08-20-2004, 09:52 PM

Question: Would I shoot a looter?

Answer: No

However, the thread moved from looter, to terrorist, to murderer, to rapist, to child molester, to Godzilla and the Seven Headless Misfits.

Question: Would I shoot a looter?

Answer: No

kc2kde

08-20-2004, 09:58 PM

SY. where are you in this one??

WA5KRP

08-20-2004, 10:20 PM

We've all seen various sentiments posted in here. I didn't start this thread to determine who is right or wrong, but to get a sense of how the QRZ family would react.

Having read the posts, statistics tell me I'd be a fool to rob the QRZ family if I were the bad guy. You folks with the juevos to pull the trigger and defend yourself, your family, and your property certainly make life a helluvalot better for everybody else, particularly those who have a gentler, more civil way of dealing with looters.

Let me pose this question. What is the acid test to be used when a looter or burglar intrudes upon your property and permits you determine he is merely a thief, and not a rapist or murderer? Your response damn well better be politically correct and not involve profiling!

Try not to tie yourself into a pretzel.

WA5KRP
Texas

kn6z

08-20-2004, 10:37 PM

Is is justifiable to shoot a looter shooter if the looter shooter is about to shoot the shop keeper by mistake?

KF0RT

08-21-2004, 12:24 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 18 2004,20:56)]Quote[/b] (K8YS @ Aug. 18 2004,21:26)]Rob, re-read what I said...

judged by 12, then carried by 6 -- should have said judged by 12 THAN carried by 6".
Hey guys,

I get frustrated when people make perfectly valid points and blow it with a typo. #

"it is best judged by 12 then carried by 6".

Surely the original point is in complete juxstaposition with then. #To be judged by 12 then carried by six suggests a jury gives a death sentence followed by a funeral.

I'll try to do better.

WA5KRP
Texas
Geeeez. I can't believe I missed that. Brain was scanning for content, not grammar. And I claim to be afflicted with the same 'typo' frustration.

Good catch.

73, Rob (KFØRT)

N7AAO

08-21-2004, 12:26 AM

Quote[/b] (kc2kde @ Aug. 20 2004,14:58)]SY. where are you in this one??
SY has brains enough to stay out of this debate. And I did. too, until now. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/unclesam.gif

KF0RT

08-21-2004, 12:55 AM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 20 2004,16:20)]Let me pose this question. #What is the acid test to be used when a looter or burglar intrudes upon your property and permits you determine he is merely a thief, and not a rapist or murderer? #Your response damn well better be politically correct and not involve profiling!
Grab the cell phone on the way to the Panic Room. Dial 911 once there.

Another story... About three years ago, we got a phone call from the girl living next door. She was 17 at the time, her parents were out of town and she had a friend over so she wouldn't be alone. The call came at about 2:15AM. She told my wife that she thought there was a prowler inside the house. While my wife was talking to her on the landline, I called 911 on the cell phone. Police were here in about 3 minutes and within 10 they had everything under control; every room in the house had been searched and they came up empty. 3-4 patrol cars responded to the call, so there were plenty of officers.

In that same 3 minutes, I could have loaded a gun and been over there myself. Then, if the police showed up, it would be ME who was the prowler. Instead, I relayed messages. The girl talked to my wife, my wife told me what was going on, and this was relayed to the 911 dispatcher, who relayed it to the "field."

So much of this is situational, and that's really the whole point. In the same situation, if we were in a rural area with no other houses for miles, the reaction would have been MUCH different. "Honey, call the police, I'm heading over there." Armed? You bet!!

We may be lucky here with fast response times from the police, but I don't think I'd get too involved with a common thief.

There is no "one size fits all" acid test because every situation is different. Now, if a bear got into my beef jerkey stash, I might just have to shoot first and ask questions later. That's not profiling, is it?

73, Rob (KFØRT)

k4uug

08-21-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote[/b] (wa5krp @ Aug. 17 2004,19:41)]"I WOULD NOT HESITATE TO INVEST IN A WELL PLACED BULLET."
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #Are #you Sure you would shoot an unarmed theif.I shot and killed the enemy in combat that was trying to kill me!, and at times I have a hard time living with the fact I killed those enemy soldiers ie haunting dreams and memories and guilt of the past.Think about that before you say you would shoot an unarmed man! Kill only less you be killed http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

08-21-2004, 03:31 PM

N1OBN raises a great point (and one that almost EVERY person who has used a firearm deals with - especially if the use resulted in a death/injury to another human being.)

First, let me state WITHOUT reservation, that pulling the trigger is NOT something done with glee, joy, or a lot of thinking.

But when it was done.. it's done (becuase I've thought about it ahead of time) that *I* would MUCH rather be explaining WHY I fired that round than having some guy knock on the door of my family and say, "We regret to inform you that......."

Looter? Thief? no matter. YOU invade my home.. YOU suffer the penalties. I have NO idea of your mindset. I hvae NO idea if you are armed or not. YOU are the violator and the one taking the risk. You play th eodds and your odds will most likely come up snake eyes.

SORRY! you lose. I win. I live.. you die. Simple.

I'll deal with the emotional issues later. But I or whomeever I protected will be ALIVE to have to deal with it. YOU won't! Regrets? yes.. I had to kill. Regrets for having done it. NOT A ONE. You forced the issue, you opened the door, you entered the forbidden zone. Sorry.. YOU LOSE.

END. FULL STOP. OUT.

It's not until that 'moment of truth' when you find yourself looking down the barrel at another person. Things tend to 'slow down' relatively speaking to where a second seems like an hour.

You see the person in the sights, the hand aims the weapon, the sights line up with the target, your brain registers 'on target'.

Thefinger tightens and the hammer slides backwards until it releases and the sound of the round leaving the barrel is heard.

Then you see the target jerk a bit and depending on where you hit him you might see more overt results.

All this is done without a lot of concious thought. If you are trained.. it is done according to trained responses. IF not.. it's done by instinct. Either way.. the response is 'stimulus, reaction, action, review, action (if needed).' Then after it's over you analyze.

It's NOT until it's over that your brain begins to process the thought that 'I JUST SHOT SOMEONE!' and you begin to focus on the external reality that someone is now lying down with some really visible (or maybe not so visible) red stuff coming out of them.

It's NOT until then that your emotinonal side starts impacting the rational side.

The shakes kick in and you find it damn difficult to breathe...

damn difficult to focus..

Your brain is conflicted between the realization that you ACTUALLY shot someone and the thinking that you HAD to do that. (and this conflict goes on for a LONG time - even when the shooting is justifiably correct.)

Eventually you work through it. Either you adjust to the reality that what you did was required or you don't.

Either way.. you reevaluate things and arrive at a point where you achieve some time of mental equilibrium.

You find out JUST what you've got inside. Some can deal with it.. some can't. Some resolve that if they have to do it, they can. Others resolve NEVER again.

You NEVER know what's going on until you've been there and done that.

But N1OBN is correct..

The images of those times NEVER leave you and you never lose the awareness of it.

It's something you NEVER take lightly NOR do you ever DISCOUNT what it means. #The thought processes involved in arriving at thepoint where you realize that you CAN shoot #- if you need to do so - are not arrived at lightly, believe me.

if you do treat it cavilierly.. you'll be wrestling those mental attacks for years. #Trust me.. you DON'T want to go there if you don't have to!

k4uug

08-22-2004, 01:12 AM

Quote[/b] (K3FT @ Aug. 21 2004,11:31)]N1OBN raises a great point (and one that almost EVERY person who has used a firearm deals with - especially if the use resulted in a death/injury to another human being.

It's not until that 'moment of truth' when you find yourself looking down the barrel at another person. Things tend to 'slow down' relatively speaking to where a second seems like an hour.

You see the person in the sights, the hand aims the weapon, the sights line up with the target, your brain registers 'on target'.

Thefinger tightens and the hammer slides backwards until it releases and the sound of the round leaving the barrel is heard.

Then you see the target jerk a bit and depending on where you hit him you might see more overt results.

All this is done without a lot of concious thought. If you are trained.. it is done according to trained responses. IF not.. it's done by instinct. Either way.. the response is 'stimulus, reaction, action, review, action (if needed).' Then after it's over you analyze.

It's NOT until it's over that your brain begins to process the thought that 'I JUST SHOT SOMEONE!' and you begin to focus on the external reality that someone is now lying down with some really visible (or maybe not so visible) red stuff coming out of them.

It's NOT until then that your emotinonal side starts impacting the rational side.

The shakes kick in and you find it damn difficult to breathe...

damn difficult to focus..

Your brain is conflicted between the realization that you ACTUALLY shot someone and the thinking that you HAD to do that. (and this conflict goes on for a LONG time - even when the shooting is justifiably correct.)

Eventually you work through it. Either you adjust to the reality that what you did was required or you don't.

Either way.. you reevaluate things and arrive at a point where you achieve some time of mental equilibrium.

You find out JUST what you've got inside. Some can deal with it.. some can't. Some resolve that if they have to do it, they can. Others resolve NEVER again.

You NEVER know what's going on until you've been there and done that.

But N1OBN is correct..

The images of those times NEVER leave you and you never lose the awareness of it.

It's something you NEVER take lightly NOR do you ever DISCOUNT what it means. #The thought processes involved in arriving at thepoint where you realize that you CAN shoot #- if you need to do so - are not arrived at lightly, believe me.

if you do treat it cavilierly.. you'll be wrestling those mental attacks for years. #Trust me.. you DON'T want to go there if you don't have to!
You got it right almost a cold feeling comes apon you and you only feel the recoil of the weapon everything slows down all your senses get sharp I still can close my eyes and see the flash from his weapon the spent shell cases flying out and I see the expression of fear on those ememy faces the beads of sweat the splash of the bullet and the mist of blood and tisue flys off the body brain matter has a sweet sicking smell to it and I took no pride in it and I still feel guilty even though they were trying to kill me.Rethink about the use of deadly force apon an unarmed theif.You are the one who will have to live with your actions in the end!It is not easy!

WA5KRP

08-22-2004, 01:21 AM

FT and OBN,

As wrenching as the feelings you describe can be, they pale in comparison to the feelings your surviving family members would have upon the loss of YOUR life at the hands of a looter or intruder.

Sometimes trouble comes looking for law abiding citizens - rarely the other way around. We shouldn't be forced to make such horrendous decisions. But sometimes we have no choice.

WA5KRP
Texas

KA9VQF

08-22-2004, 01:40 AM

I personally have never ‘dropped the hammer’ at another person.

I was #however trained to do so. I have stood behind their car and beside the squad car {if their plates were on the hot list} with my blued .357 loaded with the approved .38 special loads, with the hammer back a live load in the cylinder and the safety off, in the approved two handed stance. Completely ready to do so. While my partner {the chief} asked them questions.

In my short time in blue, several people were relived of concealed, unregistered firearms. None of them were quite dumb enough to think ‘Andy and Barney’ in my tiny Podunk town wouldn’t drop them.

For what ever reason the next town over which was at least 6 times bigger, and the county seat, had plenty of firefights over the years. Never did figure that out. #

Also, I never had to deal with a looter.