N1IN

[N1IN]

From Daniel Wolff, Army MARS in Europe
This message is a personal appeal to take action against the closure of the European Area MARS Gateway Station (AEM1USA.)
Earlier this year the Commanding General, General Bell, US Army Europe (USAREUR), officially requested the closure of the Gateway, which links the Hams in MARS within the United States with troops #in Europe, the Middle East, West Asia and Africa. #His request has made its way up the chain to the Department of the Army who, if I understand correctly, concurs with his request. #The General’s request is now on the desk of the Department of Defense (DoD) representative for MARS who works in the offices of the Secretary of Defense. #This DoD representative, Mr. Morris Hornik ( Morris.Hornik@osd.mil ), is now being asked to concur or not concur with the closure of the European Area MARS Gateway station
# # # # This is a critical pivot point in not only the future of MARS in Europe, but the future of MARS anywhere outside of the Continental USA (CONUS). #He argued that with the advent of new technologies (cell phones, satellite communications, email, and phones in the field, etc.) that MARS is not needed anymore.
# # # # None of the positive reasons for MARS provided by me or the Command MARS Director, Europe to General Bell made it in the General’s request to close the Gateway. #In fact, it appears the General had his mind up to close the Gateway before ever requesting input from the Command MARS Director, Europe.
# # # # The following statement on MARS was included in the House Armed Services Committee report which accompanied the Defense bills for 2000.

QUOTE
Military Affiliate Radio System
The committee reiterates its prior support for the Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) and the civilian amateur radio operators who provide the Department of Defense (DoD) with an auxiliary means of communications in the event of a local, national, or international emergency. However, the committee is concerned that the benefits of this volunteer communications service are not fully appreciated or utilized by the Department.
In its December 31, 1996 report to the committee on the MARS program, the Secretary of Defense emphasized, "there is no requirement for a change in the MARS mission." although its main mission is to provide emergency communications support, MARS has been a valuable system for relaying morale and welfare messages between U.S. service personnel stationed abroad and their families in the United States. #This system has operated at virtually no cost to the Department. As the number, scope, and pace of contingency operations in which the United States participates--including peacekeeping operations--continues to grow, the committee encourages the Department to support, where feasible, the deployment of a MARS capability to contingency theaters in order to provide an auxiliary communications means for the use of service personnel. In light of reports that DoD communications networks in Europe are being augmented and improved in connection with the U.S. and NATO military campaign against Yugoslavia, the committee believes that MARS can play an important role in support of the military and humanitarian operations being conducted in support of this mission.
The committee is aware of other existing communications arrangements--including the Defense Switching Network, mobile subscriber equipment, commercial carriers, and e-mail--which have been made available to U.S. troops for morale traffic purposes during limited periods of time. However, the committee notes that these alternate systems may not always be available and may result in out-of-pocket costs to the users. The committee also encourages the department to make greater efforts to inform U.S. military personnel of the availability of the mars service.
UNQUOTE

With this in mind, the committee urged the Secretary of Defense to take a number of actions to improve the utility of MARS. Such actions included(1) increasing the visibility of MARS to senior military and civil authority leadership;
(2) incorporating MARS into appropriate contingency and emergency operations plans;
(3) increasing the use of MARS as a cost-effective and viable alternative to commercial telecommunications for the purposes of troop morale and welfare;
(4) ensuring that all forward deployed units possess communications equipment capable of operation on MARS frequencies; and
(5) considering the applicability of using MARS as a low-cost test bed for the evaluation of new communications technology and equipment.

The committee notes that contemplated changes to communications modes and frequency allocations between military and commercial use may negatively impact the ability of mars to fulfill its auxiliary communications role in the event of emergency.

The committee also encouraged the Department to ensure that issues related to MARS frequency allocations are addressed in connection with any review of emergency response mission requirements.

The European Command from HQ USAREUR, through 5th Signal Command, down the chain to the 181st Signal Company has done little to support the objectives envisioned above by the House Armed Services Committee or the office of the Secretary of Defense. #Just the opposite has occurred and in fact, many obstacles have been put in place to stunt the growth and curtail the improvement of the MARS network within USAREUR and CENTCOM. #

Mr. Hornik is in general, pro-MARS. #In fact, he is also a licensed Advanced Class Amateur Radio Operator. #However, in his official capacity as the DoD Representative for MARS, he can not simply “non-concur” with the closure of the Gateway without giving some substance as to why. #I ask you to give him reasons why it is not a good idea to close the Gateway.

73
Mr. Daniel Wolff
Assistant Affiliate Coordinator, Europe
US Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
MARS CallsignS: AEA1AM, AEM1WF
Webpage: http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf
E-mail: aem1wf@qsl.net

Contact info for Mr. Hornik, DoD MARS Representative, Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD-NII)
Morris.Hornik@osd.mil
(703) 607-0251

[KT0DD]

What's next? Since reading can be done "Online", will we quit printing books since we now have newer technology, and no longer "need" them? Sheesh, I really wonder what our country is coming to sometimes. 73

[KF7CG]

What is the biggest upcoming threat to the local MARS operators? Does BPL interference sound like a good candidate? Need I say more?

[w6em]

I was an Army MARS member for more than 20 years, until very recently.

I resigned due to an internal squabble which I felt was handled very poorly. #And, I told the Chief ARMY MARS why, and the specifics.

MARS, now it seems, has become a "news media follow up system" here stateside. #Essential Elements of Information (EEI) reports are what are focused on, not traditional traffic handling nor assistance to RA, Reserve or National Guard units as it has been over the years.

Budget cuts, and thoughts by those in senior positions just as voiced in the General's response, have unfortunately taken away from what the traditional and rightful role of MARS should be.

A good example of how it used to be (and still very occasionally is) appeared in a recent article in World Radio where an officer, who is a ham and MARS member took along civilian gear with his unit which was being deployed in Central America. #Great story. #But, IMHO, there are countless similar examples that could be and could have been, of civilian MARS operators helping to train and set up MARS stations for deployment with units.

Why hasn't this been done, instead of focusing on chasing media stories to feed to the Pentagon? #And, on top of that, here in FL, communications outside of the state are virtually forbidden unless through non-military "gateway" stations. #Ridiculous over control, IMO.

While a resident in the Western Area of Army MARS, we were free to check into any nets in the 6 to 7 state Western Area and to pass traffic across the Area, and through AF and NAV/MAR nets as well. #Perhaps, that too has changed in the last two years or so. #But, as one friend has informed me just recently, it has not.

So, yes, the gentleman will receive an email from me, supporting the retention of the European Gateway, but also my criticism over the change in and IMO defocus of the proper and correct role for MARS, as you have so eloquently reminded us. #The former Secretary of Defense, in his statements, properly justified the continued existence of MARS. #Apparentlly our present one wishes that it should become a system to check up on the media and local events and goodness knows what else.

Best 73,

Lee
W6EM

[w3tua]

I believe MARS is outdated and no longer needed. As a 14-year veteran and a member of the signal corps I can attest to the fact that Army communications systems are highly reliable. Email and internet communications are available at a majority of deployment locations. Backup systems include tactical telephone and short to long-range radio systems. All of these systems are operated and maintained by highly skilled and experienced soldiers.

My unit was in charge of MARS operation in our part of the Afghanistan theatre. I never saw a single MARSgram come through my unit due to the availability of email. It was darn near impossible to convince soldiers to wait days for a message to get through that could get there in only minutes over the internet.

Times have changed and I personally don't see the need for MARS anymore. #Believe me---if our primary commo systems go down for any amount of time we will be breaking our necks to fix them.

Respectfully submitted,

SGT Korey Chandler
327th Signal Battalion
Fort Bragg, NC

###The opinions expressed in this message are the sole responsibility of the author and are not necessarily endorsed by the United States Army###

[N3NL]

Mr. Hornik, DoD MARS Representative, Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD-NII)
Morris.Hornik@osd.mil

# Dear Mr. Hornik,

# Please do not close the European Area MARS Gateway Station (AEM1USA.). #The Department of Defense needs to retain an active and capable MARS system to provide morale traffic for our troops overseas and to provide back up communications capability in case of a megadisaster situation.

# The DOD is in the business of preparing for worst case situations in order to protect the Nation. #This protection should include the maintenance of an active MARS system and its trained group of radio operators both civilian and military.

# One very possible megadisaster is an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attack by a rogue nation. #An EMP attack can be conducted effectively by a nation or group equipped with a basic missile with elementary guidance systems. #In an EMP attack scenario, most of the usual high-tech communications will cease operating. #In this situation, the manually operated HF stations operated by trained MARS operators will be a major functioning communications resource.

# For further information on EMP scenarios, I suggest that you examine docket RM-10330 on the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Electronic Comment Filing System (ECFS) at the URL:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/ecfs/

# Thank you for your attention to this important issue.

# # # Nickolaus E. Leggett
# # # N3NL Amateur Radio Extra Class
# # #

[n2obm]

It is a sad day for the MARS program. To have to 'justify' the mere existance of an adjunct communications medium.
It is REALLY sad that justification has to be made to a Commander.

'Sir, the plan for communications to the long range recon team is satellite.' OR, how about, 'Sir, we have reports that a Kellog, Brown and Root convoy is taking small arms fire north of An Najaf, but the report is 4 hours old.' (Please read lack of interoperability)

I snicker under my breath when I hear that "the SAT link is down" or "the shot is taking hits". And I hear these terms all too often.

I am in the Army Signal Corps, fresh from 15 months in Iraq.

They forgot about the 'poor man's satellite'.

High frequency.

It baffles me that these 'new age' techie soldiers can send an SMS, adjust the EQ on the car audio system, program the the CD player, check range to destination on the GPS and drive like fools well beyond the speed limit (all at the same time) BUT can't grasp the concepts related to radio wave propagation, Fresnel zones, antenna patterns or troubleshoot a simple communication circuit by introducing loopbacks to exercise the process of elimination and substitution.

I was approached by contractors in Iraq to give advice on establishing radio nets. Line of sight and beyond the horizon. I suggested using the MARS network (the contractors worked under the Army Corps of Engineers). MARS already had authorized frequencies (day, nite and NVIS), a call sign system, and stations monitoring. I don't know the full outcome of my suggestions. What more could any 'customer' want? Free gear? Oh, well the 14 Icom 706's were paid for by taxpayers.

A sad day indeed.

P.S. Also stationed at Ft. Bragg, NC

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka5vcq @ July 28 2004,14:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe MARS is outdated and no longer needed. As a 14-year veteran and a member of the signal corps I can attest to the fact that Army communications systems are highly reliable. Email and internet communications are available at a majority of deployment locations.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Do you know (I am dating myself here!) what an O-11-A is? Or was? May not have them anymore. The Army may not have used them at all.

It was a rather large flight line fire truck. I hope you own one, and it is warmed up and ready to go, with full crew and load of foam. You're gonna need it.

Like amateur radio traffic nets, MARS handles mostly, from what I can tell with listening to them, practice traffic, or just 'service messages.' In my sporadic monitoring over the past year, I've heard no voice messages at all. Maybe it has all gone to data or RTTY.

Crank up your fire truck. Enjoy

Ed

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka5vcq @ July 28 2004,14:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe MARS is outdated and no longer needed. As a 14-year veteran and a member of the signal corps I can attest to the fact that Army communications systems are highly reliable. Email and internet communications are available at a majority of deployment locations. Backup systems include tactical telephone and short to long-range radio systems. All of these systems are operated and maintained by highly skilled and experienced soldiers.

My unit was in charge of MARS operation in our part of the Afghanistan theatre. I never saw a single MARSgram come through my unit due to the availability of email. It was darn near impossible to convince soldiers to wait days for a message to get through that could get there in only minutes over the internet.

Times have changed and I personally don't see the need for MARS anymore. #Believe me---if our primary commo systems go down for any amount of time we will be breaking our necks to fix them.

Respectfully submitted,

SGT Korey Chandler
327th Signal Battalion
Fort Bragg, NC

###The opinions expressed in this message are the sole responsibility of the author and are not necessarily endorsed by the United States Army###[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sgt. Chandler:

Your perspective is appreciated, yet your concept of reliability is slightly off the mark.

As has been said by Nick Leggett, N3NL, there is no guarantee that your satellite internet connection will be there when you need it. #EMP, Xray or conventional laser radiation, as well as an intense meteor shower could kill satellites and your uplink/downlink dependency will leave you isolated. #And not for minutes or hours...... but for months or years until more satellites could be manufactured and launched.

And, although you claim your SINCGARS and such gear is incredibly reliable, it is not available for health and welfare traffic. #Nor, is it as flexible as continuously tuneable HF radios are. #Flipping synthesizer digits and code wheels just isn't the same. #And, the equipment is incredibly expensive.

MARS should continue to exist, as both a training tool for military operators, and as a back up, long distance communications system. #There are many folks with many years of military communications experience in MARS civilian operator ranks that could assist in training military radio operators. #Much like used to be the case, at least in the Western Area. #Most of the RA gateway operators actually learned radio procedure from the civilian MARS members.

Thank you for your service to our nation, but your rush to solely rely on satellite technology for internet and long distance communications is, IMO, akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Best 73,

Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL
Formerly, AAT9GN and AAV4IG.

[ka7agn]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Hello All.

I wish to personally thank each of you for writing Mr. Hornik in an effort to save the European Area MARS Gateway Station (AEM1USA). Sadly, however, Mr. Hornik feels overwhelmed and is not reading any of your responses to the proposed closure of the Gateway. #See his email below. #Your valuable comments weren’t even given a chance in the decision process. #I’m not even sure that he can effectively argue reasons to keep the Gateway with only one page but that’s not my call.

I was extremely disappointed that he only read my emails and discarded yours, especially since many of you have very good reasons to keep the Gateway open. #I wrote him back after receiving his email to explain that we weren’t trying to ambush or spam him, but give him plenty of information to consider for his response to the request to close the Gateway, and that there wasn’t anything malicious in our intent. #I haven’t heard from him since.

I felt, however, that what each of you wrote WAS important and valuable in the decision making process of the proposed closure. #To that end and because Mr. Hornik didn’t even read your inputs, I forwarded your responses to the DoD Inspector General’s Office for consideration. #You should have each received a copy of my email to the Inspector General’s office for your own use. #If you wish to write the Inspector General’s office directly to express any further concerns or provide additional information, their contact information is:


Email: hotline@dodig.osd.mil

Web: http://www.dodig.osd.mil (must be on a .mil server to access)

Ph: 1-800-424-9098


73,

Mr. Daniel Wolff
Assistant Affiliate Coordinator, Europe
US Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
MARS Callsigns: AEA1AM, AEM1WF
Webpage: http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf
E-mail: aem1wf@qsl.net

HQ Army MARS (NETCOM/9th Army Signal Command)
Webpage: http://www.netcom.army.mil/mars

=======================================
Army MARS serving "proud, professional and ready."
=======================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Hornik, Morris, CIV, OSD-NII [mailto:Morris.Hornik@osd.mil]
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 7:12 PM
To: 'daniel.v.wolff@us.army.mil'
Subject: RE: MARS --- Future of the European Area MARS Gateway Station, Edingen, Germany (U)

UNCLASSIFIED

Mr. Wolff,

Please understand that my MARS involvement is temporary, is among several "additional duties as assigned," and certainly is not any major part of my responsibilities. #Also, there's very little time available for any response to the Army from my office; further, my response may well be over-ruled. #In any case, I don't appreciate being "spammed" by MARS proponents, and simply do not have time to read their e-mails. #As I explained to you last week, your previous response will be the basis of my ONE PAGE non-concur memo. #Everyone else who e-mailed has wasted their time, but will not be wasting mine. #I would appreciate it if you'd immediately notify EVERYONE you e-mailed my address to, and tell them that there is absolutely no point in sending anything to me. #It's not too smart to ambush someone you want to help you...

Morris Hornik

[KT0DD]

I'm so glad I never served in the military after seeing this nitwit's response. Mighty poor example of leadership being shown here. the term A**hole coms to mind. Oh well, when they need You MARS ops and you're no longer there, well they have only themselves to blame.

Maybe writing a few congresspeople and sending a copy of his rude respnse will at least get some attention drawn to him. Maybe we can get him assigned to polar weather station Hi Hi. 73.

[N3ZKP]

I have no comment on the gentleman's reply, but like most things, there is more than one side to every story.

In all probability, the proposed closing of the gateway has nothing to do with MARS itself or any real/imagined anti-MARS bias. More than likely, this is simply one step in drawing down the US military presence in Germany.

[W1GFD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka5vcq @ July 28 2004,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I believe MARS is outdated and no longer needed. As a 14-year veteran and a member of the signal corps I can attest to the fact that Army communications systems are highly reliable. Email and internet communications are available at a majority of deployment locations. Backup systems include tactical telephone and short to long-range radio systems. All of these systems are operated and maintained by highly skilled and experienced soldiers.

My unit was in charge of MARS operation in our part of the Afghanistan theatre. I never saw a single MARSgram come through my unit due to the availability of email. It was darn near impossible to convince soldiers to wait days for a message to get through that could get there in only minutes over the internet.

Times have changed and I personally don't see the need for MARS anymore. Believe me---if our primary commo systems go down for any amount of time we will be breaking our necks to fix them.

Respectfully submitted,

SGT Korey Chandler
327th Signal Battalion
Fort Bragg, NC

###The opinions expressed in this message are the sole responsibility of the author and are not necessarily endorsed by the United States Army###[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sgt. Chandler:
As the other fella stated your conception of reliability is somewhat skewed and you (through no fault of your own) obviously have a misconception as to the actual role of MARS post 9/11, the primary role of MARS has shifted from troop support to emcomm. And as for the reliability of military satellites etc… well I have an interesting story to convey to you sir, while on a joint training exercise with the 11th WMD-CST I had the pleasure to be assigned as the ARES liaison to the unified command post owned and operated by the AMRY, about an half an hour into the drill the UCP was set up and thought to be fully operational but when the UCP commander attempted to connect to the satellite he was unable to get the crypto to lock well after about another 45 min he contacted Ft. Belvoir and found that they had a fire alarm go off and it automatically closed the safe which contained the crypto code for that day and the only person who had the combination was a Colonel who was out on the golf course, but in the Colonels defense it was a Sunday, so after yet another 45 min they got the codes and had the system working, or did they, well at least the phone and internet were there but the brand new encrypted 900Mhz radio system (repeater included) seemed to not be functioning, well really it was working just that the UCP was one mile from the scene and well as we all know 900Mhz dose not have that great a coverage area so myself the lowly Ham with a $300 Icom portable working of a 20+ year old VHF un-encrypted repeater had to communicate with the scene commander. So you see all communications methods have their limitations and if you know this you will know how to pick the right tools for the job at hand. Remember one good solar flair and oops no more satellite till the storm passes.

[N3NL]

It is too bad that thoughtful citizen input is viewed
as spam. What happened to the idea of democracy
and citizen participation in government? I guess all
that is obsolete in this brave new world.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N3NL @ July 29 2004,06:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is too bad that thoughtful citizen input is viewed
as spam. #What happened to the idea of democracy
and citizen participation in government? #I guess all
that is obsolete in this brave new world.
73, #Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nick: #Unlike members of Congress, he doesn't have a separate "spam-input" mailbox, used for collection of email....to be received, but ignored.

Bureaucrats aren't so priveliged. #And, on top of that, he seems to have a rather terse attitude about people that are pro-MARS. #Or, at least MARS missions beyond local media surveys. #Maybe Rumfilled would be a better addressee.

Also, the DOD-OIG's office (Office of the Inspector General) would be a good place to write, but they're probably pretty busy looking at Kellogg Brown and Root's billings these days.

73,

Lee
W6EM

[JimHoffman]

As an Airman stationed in Germany during the 60s, I used MARS to make calls home and promised myself that one day I would get my HAM License, Join MARS and try to return the favor.

After 26 years in the military, I finally became a ham and joined MARS. To my dismay, it turned out to be a group that wasn't interested in handling MARSGrams. It was a reason to stay in contact 4 or 5 times a week and call it training.

When the War in Iraq started I tried to stir up interest in handling traffic from local families to their sons and daughters that had been deployed to the gulf region. I was told to forget it. No one was interested!!!!

If all State MARS Groups are like the one here in PA, then thay might as well close the Germany Gateway .

There isn't anyone to talk with them!!!

[w8mu]

From the Army MARS webpage:

Mission

To provide Department of Defense sponsored emergency communications on a local, national, and international basis as an adjunct to normal communications.
To provide auxiliary communications for military, civil, and/or disaster officials during periods of emergency.
To assist in effecting normal communications under emergency conditions.

I was involved in Navy-Marine Corps MARS during the first Gulf War, and have been involved again in the past two years or so. The differences are striking. The focus from health and welfare traffic is gone, replaced by the emergency communications support for DoD and local authorities. I know Navy Marine Corps MARS is organized differently, since we do not have "Gateways". Listening to the Chief's at Dayton for the last two years, it appeared that all branches were focused on domestic emergency communications.

Truthfully, if conditions were such that communications via satellite and/or other channels were not available, I doubt seriously that H&W traffic would make it through anyway, as emergency messages would have higher priority.

To the extent that a gateway is necessary to support the primary emergency communications mission, it should be retained. If a gateway is not necessary, it should be closed and (most importantly) the billet released to addressed other communications needs of the military.

The mission is what it is -- and I gather several years ago it was either emergency comms or elimination of the MARS program. The Chiefs should be commended for working together to firmly establish MARS as an integral part of the DoD emergency response plans, and as an integral part of the Homeland Security Plan.

de NNN0RBB / N5NW (Marty)
Ohio

[w3tua]

Thanks for the low-heat treatment so far, Gentlemen! hi hi!

Just to clarify a few things:

We do have long-range HF capabilities as backups to satellite. I started out as a 31C (05C for you old-timers) and we still have HF capability. The radios and antenna systems available today are head and shoulders above what we had only 10 years ago. Our HF fixed-stations are top-notch also.

Since I'm a soldier and not a writer, I tended to leave out a point that a gentleman posted later. Something along the lines of "if primary communications systems fail then message traffic would become a low priority and probably not be passed." That's the meat of the matter IMHO.

I appreciate the long history of professional service MARS has given to all servicemembers over the past decades. During my first and second assignments to Korea, I spent my free time in the MARS stations at Camp Red Cloud and Camp Carroll passing traffic. It was some of the best training I've ever received in my radio hobby as a ham and career as a military radio operator. People kept the MARSGRAM boxes pretty full back then. Keep in mind that the internet wasn't nearly as popular or developed back in the '91 and '95 time period.

I will continue to utilize the gateway when necessary during my upcoming deployment to Iraq. Though I can see the reasoning for eliminating the MARS station, I will continue to support it until it is no longer there since I am one of my company's MARS station operators.

73 to all,

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5nw @ July 29 2004,11:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From the Army MARS webpage:

Mission

To provide Department of Defense sponsored emergency communications on a local, national, and international basis as an adjunct to normal communications.
To provide auxiliary communications for military, civil, and/or disaster officials during periods of emergency.
To assist in effecting normal communications under emergency conditions.
.................................................. ..........................
The mission is what it is -- and I gather several years ago it was either emergency comms or elimination of the MARS program. #The Chiefs should be commended for working together to firmly establish MARS as an integral part of the DoD emergency response plans, and as an integral part of the Homeland Security Plan.

de NNN0RBB / N5NW (Marty)
Ohio[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Marty: #No offense, but, if the MARS mission is what you have indeed clipped and posted, then WHY did no MARS Chiefs, nor anyone from DoD object to the BPL rollout?

Surely, they must have heard what BPL will potentially do to HF communications.

If they are to be commended, (for saving MARS) then WHY didn't they comment that BPL will make the MARS mission(s) difficult, if not impossible to achieve?

Was it fear of retaliation from above? #Most MARS officials are now contractors, and can be dispensed with at will. #Perhaps therein lies the answer.

In any case, the MARS directors do not deserve any commendation for remaining publicly silent on the effects of BPL on homeland and national security.


Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[WD8OQX]

It seems to me that "they" were trying (on & off) to get rid of MARS for the past 30 years. Can't figure out why, myself.

As an OT (OF?) I know from experience, about the time you rely on something it WILL go to ****. (remember Murphy's Law?) I for one think anytime you totally forget the old ways & rely on tech. you are cutting your own throat!

BTW: I can hear the Amish laughing, now..... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
We should use tech. - not let tech. use us!

[AB9IW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KT0DD @ July 29 2004,03:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm so glad I never served in the military after seeing this nitwit's response. Mighty poor example of leadership being shown here. the term A**hole coms to mind. Oh well, when they need You MARS ops and you're no longer there, well they have only themselves to blame.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would guess that Mr. Hornick is not a military person, but rather a fairly high ranking civilian. As such, it is not fair to judge military people by him. Indeed it is not fair even to lump all military people together, but that is another topic.

His reasons sound reasonable to me. We may or may not agree with him, but obviously we do not all agree among ourselves.

73

Gene Fuller, Major USAF, Retired (in 1971. Have been a civilian after my military service longer than I was on Active duty.

[K4SFC]

The "Army MARS" has been in slow closure for many, many years now. It has just reached the final conclusion.
The "Gateway" station in Frankfurt Germany in 1982/83, utilized radio equipment purchased by the "Overseas Wives Club". The station was manned by volunteers. The only thing the Army furnished was the building, tower and antenna. And they still closed it anyway. So I ran the station out of my quarters with permission from the 5th Signal Command, 'til I retired in Oct '83. I suspect the circular scenario will repeat itself in this case as well. Some day in the future an NCO will be told; "just get it done"! And he/she will have to figure a way to get on the air.
K4SFC, Ex-AEM1SNN, Ex-DA2SN

[KT0DD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AB9IW @ July 29 2004,23:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KT0DD @ July 29 2004,03:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm so glad I never served in the military after seeing this nitwit's response. Mighty poor example of leadership being shown here. the term A**hole coms to mind. Oh well, when they need You MARS ops and you're no longer there, well they have only themselves to blame.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would guess that Mr. Hornick is not a military person, but rather a fairly high ranking civilian. As such, it is not fair to judge military people by him. Indeed it is not fair even to lump all military people together, but that is another topic.

His reasons sound reasonable to me. We may or may not agree with him, but obviously we do not all agree among ourselves.

73

Gene Fuller, Major USAF, Retired (in 1971. Have been a civilian after my military service longer than I was on Active duty.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
To AB9IW, Sometimes I need to allow my blood pressure to fall before using a keyboard, so my response may have been a little strong. And I do respect military people worthy of respect. My father was a Tech Sgt./ tailgunner on B-17's in WW2 who spent 14 months in an Austrian prison camp (Thank God it wasn't inside Germany, as Dad said his outcome may have been quite different) I chose to help in civilian life providing energy to people (22 years in the oil/gas/geothermal fields)

However, sometimes cost isn't everything, and I agree with an above poster that Murphy (and sometimes Mrs. Murphy) rear their ugly heads when you are totally reliant on the latest and greatest. It may seem like archaic technology compared to modern stuff, but I still agree with the bumper sticker I saw that says" When all else fails - There's Amateur Radio. Keeping an old tool around is a good idea. You never know when it may be handy.73.

[kc7gnm]

First off let me say that I have had first hand experience in dealing with the Heidelberg Army Mars Gateway and it was not a very positive one either. I am a SFC in the United States Army and during the Kosovo campaign I was deployed to Albania with Task Force Hawk. Now this was the armpit of Europe down there and we were living in mud up to our waists but we managed to pull it off. At first I did not bring any ham gear with me because I looked at what the reciprocal procedures were in Albania and found out that I would have to go to their communications bureau in person to get a license to operate over there. Well a friend of mine Randy Harper (N1NGN), who was a ham over in Germany and was stationed not far from where I was, told me to get a Mars call and operate mars over there. Well I could not do that so he contacted Christa Meyers and she had me a mars call within a few days. My friend mailed me my hf station and I set up to operate mars. The frequencies that were given to me were to the Heidelberg gateway station. To my surprise no one was monitoring those freqs that were specifically assigned to me in Albania to operate on. I did manage to get a few marsgrams to try and put out over hf but I found that I had to use a landline phone system to call the gateway to wake them up and get them on the air. Now if that isn’t backwards I don’t know what is. I should not have to be waking folks up to get them on the air to pass traffic. After a few times of this I gave up completely on mars because we had internet and a phone system that was much more reliable than mars.

A lot of folks here do not understand that the Gateway in Heidelberg is not run by amateur radio operators nor is it run by civilians. It is run by Army soldiers. Most of these soldiers are put there because they cannot get or hold a clearance necessary to operate in their real signal jobs. The folks put in charge are either at the end of their careers and really don’t care how the place is run if at all. The gateway in Germany is a joke and should have closed a long time ago. It is a fund sucker that is taking money away that could be better spent on the troops that are actually in Iraq or Afghanistan. The General is making the right decision to shut that outdated place down. My first hand experience has shown that that place is a waste of taxpayer money.

The only positive experience I have had with mars is the volunteer hams that do it from their homes. Over in Iraq while flying missions with JSTARS we made phone patches from the jet to home. Never did we hear the gateway in Germany the whole time we were there. Those guys are the real mars not a gateway with a bunch of rejects sitting behind the mics, or should I say sleeping behind the mics at the gateway.

Greg Thompson
SFC, USA
KC7GNM
EX AEM1GNM, AEM5GNM, and DA2GNM

Stationed at Patton Barracks, Heidelberg Germany, 1997-2000

Disclaimer: These are my views and opinions alone and does not in any way reflect the views of the United States Army.

[N1IN]

Remarks by Robert Sutton, Chief Army MARS, on his weekly
Friday evening network to MARS members:
. #Periodically we receive negative
comments about MARS or indications that some individuals do not
have a clear picture of the MARS program and its missions. #They
think MARS is outdated and no longer useful. #As an example, Mark
Hudson, AAA9DTC, spotted a post on QRZ.com from an Army SGT
who expressed his opinions concerning MARS support for his unit
deployed overseas. The SGT's comments as relayed to me by Mark
are as follows:

" I believe MARS is outdated and no longer needed. As a 14-year
veteran and a member of the signal corps I can attest to the fact that
Army communications systems are highly reliable. Email and
internet communications are available at a majority of deployment
locations. Backup systems include tactical telephone and short to
long-range radio systems. All of these systems are operated and
maintained by highly skilled and experienced soldiers.

My unit was in charge of MARS operation in our part of the
Afghanistan theatre. I never saw a single MARSgram come through
my unit due to the availability of email.
It was darn near impossible to convince soldiers to wait days for a
message to get through that could get there in only minutes over the
internet.

Times have changed and I personally don't see the need for MARS
anymore. Believe me---if our primary commo systems go down for
any amount of time we will be breaking our necks to fix them."

My Response: Upon receiving this a number of thoughts went
through my mind. First, everyone has a right to their own opinion
and that's fine. Most times it may be limited as it is based solely on
their own personal experience and I cannot argue that his stated
experience was not true as I am sure that it was. But, there is much
more than this single glimpse. Based only upon his #comments one
may come to the same conclusion - that MARS is no longer needed.
Yes, unfortunately this type of thinking does exist at all levels
which
makes our job a bit tougher in explaining the true facts. Let's
explore
this a little deeper.

# - As a signal soldier there is no doubt in my mind that 'he' and
other signal soldiers had at their disposal all the communications
capabilities they needed. I can attest to the fact that during my 20
years in the service and subsequent 23 years in civil service, I and
those in my unit did not have any lack of communications either. But
this misses the point. What about other soldiers at other locations
who were not communicators; who may not have all the readily
available communications assets? #Ask those MARS operators in
Vietnam and Desert Storm and you will find out that the vast
majority of #the individuals that utilized phone patches and
messages were NOT communicators, and did not have available to
them the same assets as the communicators did. To put this in
perspective, did you ever see a cook that starved? #A mechanic in
the motor pool who did not have a vehicle? #A medic that ran out of
a supply of aspirin? #Don't think so.

- You may be interested in asking a few questions of this soldier,
such as how many individuals in his area even knew that MARS
existed? What was done to spread the word at the deployed location
to other individuals? #Bottom line, if a service is not known to
exist, it
won't be used. This was also noted during Desert Storm and the
availability of MARS assets only became known to many soldiers
after they returned home. #Those that knew about MARS, used it.
Those that did not, didn't.

- One also has to ask how about other individuals experiences. Do
they paint the same picture? I suggest that they do not. There will
always be more than one view on any subject. But to make a
statement that something such as MARS is not needed only based
on one individuals experience, frankly is sad. #As an example, we
had the same type (don't need MARS here) reports from a 'very
select few' during Desert Storm. On the other hand, we had
thousands of individuals who had nothing but great praise for MARS
and the volunteers that supported them. To support this, we had
something like 180,000 MARSgrams and 60,000 radio phone
patches (recorded) within just Army MARS alone during a four
month period. Tell the deployed soldiers and their loved ones that
MARS was NOT needed?

# Some will say that may have been true ten years ago, but not
today. Yes there is validity to that statement as there are more
capabilities via access to the internet today than ten years ago. No
argument there and I don't think anyone would deny that. But the
question remains, is there still a need? #The answer is yes. Lets look
at a few examples. #AEM3UAB, a mobile deployed MARS station
deployed to Iraq. This one station conducted 130 phone patches
during October 2003 alone. How about AEM4UAC deployed to
Nigeria? They originated numerous messages and completed many
phone patches through the European Area Gateway. There are
other examples of where MARS was used and therefore one can
only ascertain that other means of communications was not readily
available or was not available for morale and welfare calls support.

#- There is no doubt in my mind that the sergeant's statement was
correct when he said "Believe me---if our primary commo systems
go down for any amount of time we will be breaking our necks to fix
them." #Been there, done that, have a tee shirt to prove it.
But..what he and others may fail to understand is that history has
proven many times that the real-time temporary 'fix' is the use of an
alternate means of communications until the primary is back up on
the air. It is suggested that a well trained and prepared
communicator has more than one or two tools in his/her tool box.
Relying on one or two means of communications may not be good
enough when lives are at stake. What if the 'terminal' at the other
end has been knocked out. Now what?

# To support this point of needed cost effective back-up
communications, #there has been and is #a significant interest in
MARS capabilities by a number of disaster relief agencies and
military units as they recognize the importance of additional tools in
the tool box; specifically MARS.


#What is the point of tonight's discussion you may be asking? The
point is that MARS and your dedication is obviously still needed
today. #Although you well know that the focus is on emergency
communications in support disaster relief after natural or man made
disasters including the role of #EEI reporting; the fact remains that
some individuals still believe that MARS is 'just' a morale and
welfare system that has become outdated and no longer needed.

Why? Because they have not received the word. #It is of utmost
importance that the public, disaster relief agencies, and military
units
be made aware of the cost effective capabilities of MARS and the
volunteer support that it provides.

[w6em]

Hopefuly, Mr. Sutton will have had the time (and motivation) to read this thread in its entirety.

Its very clear from my over 20 years of Army MARS experience that the primary value of the MARS program to the men #women of the United States Army and their families still is welfare and morale. #Perhaps, as it should be, at least from many of us who want to assist them in their service to our nation in any way we can.

The so-called emergency mission, if it really exists, was not defended in the face of a challenge to the utility of the HF bands: Our President's personal agenda of installing HF BPL on our national electric distribution system.

Why, Mr. Sutton, were YOU and all of the other MARS Chiefs silent about the effects of BPL on your now-primary mission(s) of the MARS program? #Was it because EEI reports are primarily filed via the Internet and not via HF or VHF outlets (and you don't need HF to follow up on local events?)


73,
Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN and AAV4IG

[kg6qmz]

MARS members are volunteers with a small full-time staff. #The governement gets a great bargain for back up communications that is used for disaster communications, routine traffic, and MARSGrams. #MARSGrams are used for health & welfare for soldiers to send messages to family at home. #MARS was there for the soldier when the internet was not set-up or available in theater. #Recent examples: Afghanistan and Iraq.
MARS members are senior communicators who are trained in military communications. They practice daily using voice and digital on VHF repeaters and HF. #Over 200 members participate in a weekly HF net that covers North America. #
WHAT OTHER VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION DOES THIS?

Reading the comments:
1. #There are educated individuals with constructive comments either pro or con.
2. #There are disgruntled former MARS members.
3. #There is a SGT with 14 years of service who should be working on his promotion packet instead of posting comments.

[kc7gnm]

To N1IN I don't think you get the idea of how this thread started. It started because the Army decided to close the Heidelberg Gateway station. To me that is long overdue as it was a waste of taxpayer money to keep something in operation that you could not use anyways. If you read my post up a few you will understand why I feel this way. That money can be used to better protect our soldiers than to offer a backup to a backup to a backup to a backup of commuications. MARS is the lowest priority when it comes to freqs as well. Talking to a friend of mine that was over there he found out that because the Heidelberg gateway was so lazy that their frequency authorizations were expired for 7 years. They were getting all kinds of interfearence from folks that now had authorization. BTW he was assistant Army mars coordinator and he sent out an email telling everyone to cease using the freqs immediately. Mr Wolff decided to stick his nose in and got the Heidelberg Army mars chief to tell my friend to shut up and color. This is an E-8 ignoring the law in a country that can shut you down in a heartbeat for transmitting off of authorized freqs. All the dealings I ever had with Mr Wolff have been useless because if anyone has a good idea to revitalize mars he shoots it down because it is not his own. Mr Wolff thinks Mars exists solely for his enjoyment and he seems to think he is in control of it when he is not. In my opionion I am glad they are finally cutting off the Heidelberg Gateway because it was useless.

BTW have any of you ever seen what condition that station is actually in? Believe me they have no idea what they are doing there so another good reason to shut it down.


SFC Gregory L. Thompson
KC7GNM
EX AEM1GNM, AEM5GNM, DA2GNM

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg6qmz @ July 31 2004,10:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They practice daily using voice and digital on VHF repeaters and HF. #Over 200 members participate in a weekly HF net that covers North America. #
WHAT OTHER VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION DOES THIS?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, lets see, I think ARES and RACES eclipse easily the 200 weekly participants you cite. #And, with in-place emergency arrangements with local, regional and state public safety infrastructure. #During bona-fied emergencies, having equipment in key locations to interface is extremely important, and can't be stressed enough.

The fact that civilian MARS members communicate between themselves and use the internet routinely, isn't getting equipment located in emergency facilities. #And, besides, why duplicate the ARES and RACES roles? #Sure, if DoD wants local media reports (EEIs) of what is happening, MARS members could get press passes or other official ID ahead of time and collect the information as desired off of local command centers and the like. #But, what can MARS do that RACES and ARES can't (besides send EEI reports to the Pentagon)? #FEMA already has a network that is separate from MARS and is set up to request assistance from DoD. #Why is this? #Because, IMO, FEMA has an established and necessary purpose to communicate directly with local and state officials in the event their primary communication means to do so are not available.

Now, lets talk resources. #At one time, MARS provided surplus equipment to civilian members to facilitate their operation. #This isn't done any longer. #Why not? #If the role is now emergency communications, it is even more critically important to have a dependable network with emergency power to facilitate communications. #The thought of some form of automatic national digital systen comes to mind. #With the role MARS now claims, that shouldn't be hard to justify to DoD officials. #Why hasn't one been set up instead of relying on catch-as-catch-can individual members? Most of which are seniors and not up to a heavy duty committment. #Especially during emergencies.

Quite frankly, the EEI reports are nothing more than a system to spy on local events and the media and have no obvious role in providing anything from DoD in the way of assistance to areas suffering catastrophes.

RACES, ARES and FEMA already fulfill that role...... But, I'm sure there's a place for MARS in the grand scheme of things. And, some good reasons to keep the Eurpean gateway, if its role were changed slightly.

I still plan on writing to object to the closure. After all, even if the equipment is silent most of the time, it still can be operated if needed.....

Just my 2 cents.

Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN and AAV4IG

[kc7gnm]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka7agn @ July 29 2004,01:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I felt, however, that what each of you wrote WAS important and valuable in the decision making process of the proposed closure. #To that end and because Mr. Hornik didn’t even read your inputs, I forwarded your responses to the DoD Inspector General’s Office for consideration. #You should have each received a copy of my email to the Inspector General’s office for your own use. #If you wish to write the Inspector General’s office directly to express any further concerns or provide additional information, their contact information is:[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dan,

I hope that you included the negative comments as well or did you just send the ones you wanted to send to make your case stronger. You have been known to do things like in the past. If it doesn't meet your purposes or further your goals you choose to ignore them. Many folks came to you with fresh ideas on Mars and you choose to ignore them. Well I am glad someone is ignoring your ideas for a change and the gateway in Germany needs to be closed.

Greg
KC7GNM
EX: AEM1GNM, AEM5GNM and DA2GNM

[w6nyr]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ July 31 2004,13:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg6qmz @ July 31 2004,10:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They practice daily using voice and digital on VHF repeaters and HF. #Over 200 members participate in a weekly HF net that covers North America. #
WHAT OTHER VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION DOES THIS?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, lets see, I think ARES and RACES eclipse easily the 200 weekly participants you cite. #And, with in-place emergency arrangements with local, regional and state public safety infrastructure. #During bona-fied emergencies, having equipment in key locations to interface is extremely important, and can't be stressed enough.

The fact that civilian MARS members communicate between themselves and use the internet routinely, isn't getting equipment located in emergency facilities. #And, besides, why duplicate the ARES and RACES roles? #Sure, if DoD wants local media reports (EEIs) of what is happening, MARS members could get press passes or other official ID ahead of time and collect the information as desired off of local command centers and the like. #But, what can MARS do that RACES and ARES can't (besides send EEI reports to the Pentagon)? #FEMA already has a network that is separate from MARS and is set up to request assistance from DoD. #Why is this? #Because, IMO, FEMA has an established and necessary purpose to communicate directly with local and state officials in the event their primary communication means to do so are not available.

Now, lets talk resources. #At one time, MARS provided surplus equipment to civilian members to facilitate their operation. #This isn't done any longer. #Why not? #If the role is now emergency communications, it is even more critically important to have a dependable network with emergency power to facilitate communications. #The thought of some form of automatic national digital systen comes to mind. #With the role MARS now claims, that shouldn't be hard to justify to DoD officials. #Why hasn't one been set up instead of relying on catch-as-catch-can individual members? Most of which are seniors and not up to a heavy duty committment. #Especially during emergencies.

Quite frankly, the EEI reports are nothing more than a system to spy on local events and the media and have no obvious role in providing anything from DoD in the way of assistance to areas suffering catastrophes.

RACES, ARES and FEMA already fulfill that role...... #But, I'm sure there's a place for MARS in the grand scheme of things. #And, some good reasons to keep the Eurpean gateway, if its role were changed slightly.

I still plan on writing to object to the closure. #After all, even if the equipment is silent most of the time, it still can be operated if needed.....

Just my 2 cents.

Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN and AAV4IG[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, I hate to start one of those "my antenna is bigger then your antenna threads". You must have been a member quite some time ago, or you never made it past a /T call sign, because I can't find your Army call sign in any of the Region 9 lists, past or present.

To start off with, ARES and RACES does NOT have a "in place" digital infrastructure that would support it in passing traffic NATIONWIDE, we do use the internet when available, but,,, WE DON'T HAVE TOO! Sure you may have a couple of guys with Digital sound card modes, but Clover and Pactor 3 leave those in the dust.

Also, I have never heard an ARES or RACES phone patch network. But I have heard a recent phone patch to a soldier from his wife’s hospital room while she was delivering his Baby (his location is Classified, but I can say it is very sandy there). Does ARES and RACES have that capability?

We have 24/7 access to "Clear channels" for message handling, last I heard, ARES and RACES only could use Amateur Frequencies.

You say that "FEMA already has a network that is separate from MARS and is set up to request assistance from DoD". #Why is this?" # Who mans that network?

Were you in MARS long enough to become a SHARES station? The last FEMA test I attended was a total failure. ALE did not work, the satellite phone did not work, but the HF in my car worked just fine. What band is it that RACES and ARES has direct communication with FEMA? I know what frequencies I have direct contact with FEMA on, do you?

Ummm, when did MARS quite issuing equipment? Would you like me to send you a requisition? (I prefer the Harris RF-350 w/ 500 watt amp and built in phone patch that is also NTIA compliant, myself).

Honestly, ARES and RACES are setup for local communication in an emergency, they are no more important or less important then anyone else, my neighbor is the RACES Coordinator for my city, I am glad he is here. But he does NOT have the capability of direct contact with FEMA and various other Federal agencies, and also certainly does not have the WIRELESS digital infrastructure MARS has. On the other hand, I do have local resources (2 High level repeaters and several high level Packet nodes, not to mention the Pactor and Clover gateways located WORLD WIDE, including Germany). Personally I have looked at several RACES and ARES groups locally; I would not waste my time with them. But, I know that not all ARES and RACES groups are the same. I will keep looking for a good group that I can help.

That is my EDUCATED 2 cents.

Patrick Smith
PROUD, PROFESSIONALL and READY!

[ka7agn]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc7gnm @ July 31 2004,18:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka7agn @ July 29 2004,01:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I felt, however, that what each of you wrote WAS important and valuable in the decision making process of the proposed closure. #To that end and because Mr. Hornik didn’t even read your inputs, I forwarded your responses to the DoD Inspector General’s Office for consideration. #You should have each received a copy of my email to the Inspector General’s office for your own use. #If you wish to write the Inspector General’s office directly to express any further concerns or provide additional information, their contact information is:[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dan,

I hope that you included the negative comments as well or did you just send the ones you wanted to send to make your case stronger. You have been known to do things like in the past. If it doesn't meet your purposes or further your goals you choose to ignore them. Many folks came to you with fresh ideas on Mars and you choose to ignore them. Well I am glad someone is ignoring your ideas for a change and the gateway in Germany needs to be closed.

Greg
KC7GNM
EX: AEM1GNM, AEM5GNM and DA2GNM[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
SFC Greg Thompson,

Your personal attacks to me through this forum are unprofessional, obviously hateful, unwelcome, and counter-productive to a valuable discussion regarding MARS. Contrary to your pointed and belligerent attacks on what you believe is my intent and role with MARS and with my character, I believe that there are many others who have the opinion that I'm attempting to ensure the success of the MARS mission in our region. I work hard to improve MARS operations over here despite the limitations and obsticles we are presented with.

Our region has seen many successes and stations now deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Qatar, Kuwait, and other areas of Southwest Asia are benefiting greating from having access to our Gateway. The 1st Intellegence Bn deployed to Iraq made 130 phone patches through the European Area Gateway last October and regular phone patches every month since. During the recent GRECIAN FIREBOLT 04 exercise, the Gateway processed about 850 messages. I assure you that the 30 deployed stations now deployed want to see the Gateway remain but not only remain, improve their operation and procedural skills so that they are of more use to everyone.

You may not personally like the actions that I have taken in an attempt to save our European Area MARS Gateway from closure, nor may you like my opinions on how MARS is managed in our region, but I assure you that all of these have been made with the right intent---to increase the use and utility of MARS. I strongly believe that MARS still has an important role in emergency communications even with the availability of other communication capabilities and technologies. MARS volunteers by the hundreds want to see the success of MARS just as I do. Why not you?

The recommendation to close the European Area MARS Gateway is yet another example, as other have also pointed out, of MARS getting less Command attention. The problem is far greater than just one Gateway and other MARS members know this. The problems that you pointed out in your first forum comments illustrated this greatly when you talked about how you had to call the operators of the Gateway to "wake them up" to get them to monitor the radio. If there was more Command emphasis prior to your deployment, perhaps you'd have another opinion of the Gateway to tell others. Without the Command interest, the operators don't see any either and therefore do little to support the program unless forced to.

The House Armed Services committee saw the value in maintaining the MARS program and underscored that the Department of Defense wasn't doing enough to make use of the program. They gave several actions items for the Department, namely the committee urged the Secretary of Defense to take a number of actions to improve the utility of MARS. Such actions included:

(1) increasing the visibility of MARS to senior military and civil authority leadership;

(2) incorporating MARS into appropriate contingency and emergency operations plans;

(3) increasing the use of MARS as a cost-effective and viable alternative to commercial telecommunications for the purposes of troop morale and welfare;

(4) ensuring that all forward deployed units possess communications equipment capable of operation on MARS frequencies; and

(5) considering the applicability of using MARS as a low-cost test bed for the evaluation of new communications technology and equipment.

Had these action items been implemented, the state of MARS throughout the world would be much better. Moreover, there would have also been actual Command interest and the request to close the European Area MARS Gateway station (AEM1USA) would likely never have happened. Since it appears that the DoD hasn't done enough to implement the above action items, many MARS members, Hams, and MARS customers are beginning to write their Congressmen and Senators to ask why the Committee's results were not implemented.

SFC Thompson, I ask you to please stop with the personal attacks and keep your comments on MARS issues. We'd all like to hear how we can improve the MARS program, not how to put down any individual MARS volunteer and I am a volunteer with a sincere interest in seeing the success of MARS for the many years to come. Take a look at my MARS website ( http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf ) and see if I don't show an interest in the success of MARS. My intentions are honorable, sincere, and with the best interest of the MARS program in mind at all times.


Respectfully,

Mr. Daniel Wolff
Assistant Affiliate Coordinator, Europe
US Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
MARS Callsigns: AEA1AM, AEM1WF
Webpage: http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf
E-mail: aem1wf@qsl.net

HQ Army MARS (NETCOM/9th Army Signal Command)
Webpage: http://www.netcom.army.mil/mars

=======================================
Army MARS serving "proud, professional and ready."
=======================================

[ka7agn]

For everyone's benefit who is reading and participating in this forum on QRZ.com, here is what the House Armed Services Committee said. The following statement on MARS was included in the House Armed Services Committee report which accompanied the Defense bills for 2000.

QUOTE

Military Affiliate Radio System


The committee reiterates its prior support for the Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) and the civilian amateur radio operators who provide the Department of Defense (DoD) with an auxiliary means of communications in the event of a local, national, or international emergency. However, the committee is concerned that the benefits of this volunteer communications service are not fully appreciated or utilized by the Department.

In its December 31, 1996 report to the committee on the MARS program, the Secretary of Defense emphasized, "there is no requirement for a change in the MARS mission." although its main mission is to provide emergency communications support, MARS has been a valuable system for relaying morale and welfare messages between U.S. service personnel stationed abroad and their families in the United States. This system has operated at virtually no cost to the Department. As the number, scope, and pace of contingency operations in which the United States participates--including peacekeeping operations--continues to grow, the committee encourages the Department to support, where feasible, the deployment of a MARS capability to contingency theaters in order to provide an auxiliary communications means for the use of service personnel. In light of reports that DoD communications networks in Europe are being augmented and improved in connection with the U.S. and NATO military campaign against Yugoslavia, the committee believes that MARS can play an important role in support of the military and humanitarian operations being conducted in support of this mission.

The committee is aware of other existing communications arrangements--including the Defense Switching Network, mobile subscriber equipment, commercial carriers, and e-mail--which have been made available to U.S. troops for morale traffic purposes during limited periods of time. However, the committee notes that these alternate systems may not always be available and may result in out-of-pocket costs to the users. The committee also encourages the department to make greater efforts to inform U.S. military personnel of the availability of the mars service.

UNQUOTE

With this in mind, the committee urged the Secretary of Defense to take a number of actions to improve the utility of MARS. Such actions included:

(1) increasing the visibility of MARS to senior military and civil authority leadership;

(2) incorporating MARS into appropriate contingency and emergency operations plans;

(3) increasing the use of MARS as a cost-effective and viable alternative to commercial telecommunications for the purposes of troop morale and welfare;

(4) ensuring that all forward deployed units possess communications equipment capable of operation on MARS frequencies; and

(5) considering the applicability of using MARS as a low-cost test bed for the evaluation of new communications technology and equipment.

The committee notes that contemplated changes to communications modes and frequency allocations between military and commercial use may negatively impact the ability of mars to fulfill its auxiliary communications role in the event of emergency.

The committee also encouraged the Department to ensure that issues related to MARS frequency allocations are addressed in connection with any review of emergency response mission requirements.

Further, a report to the House of Representatives on MARS by the Secretary of Defense is available on my MARS website ( http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf ) for viewing (too large to post here).


73,

Mr. Daniel Wolff
Assistant Affiliate Coordinator, Europe
US Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
MARS Callsigns: AEA1AM, AEM1WF
Webpage: http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf
E-mail: aem1wf@qsl.net

HQ Army MARS (NETCOM/9th Army Signal Command)
Webpage: http://www.netcom.army.mil/mars

=======================================
Army MARS serving "proud, professional and ready."
=======================================

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KF6NYR @ July 31 2004,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Patrick: #Please don't confuse me with anti-MARS sentiments expressed by others. #Perhaps your database on MARS callsigns doesn't go back to the early 1980s. #I can assure you that AAT9GN and AAV4IG were valid callsigns issued to me. #And, no, I never had a "/T" and operated as NCS quite a few times and passed lots of traffic. #So, I've been there. #Lots and lots of training on and off the air.

My points addressing ARES and RACES are that they have the relationships set up with local and regional organizations. #MARS does not. #And, MARS may have an emergency role, and indeed it does via the SHARES system, but you offer your station as an example. #What happens if you car won't start or something happens to YOU in an emergency precluding your being the "link"?
Depending upon certain individuals (to be ready and available) in the affected area unless they have a hardened operating facility like mobile command posts offer, is stretching the point too far. #They can and will be refuelled long before they run dry (and have plans for just that). #You don't. #Trying to find a gas station for your car or generator that can pump gas in a disaster will be a challenge. #Let alone an ATM that can dispense cash.

Sure, outside the affected area, individual civilian stations would be useful. #And, I do know about SHARES.

Please don't attack me on the health and welfare aspects of MARS. #That's now a secondary role, but, probably the most important to service members. #Less frequently used now, but still very valuable. #I'm sure that you could find, if you look and listen, to examples of multiple phone patches from Iraq and other locations via MARS stations. #They still happen.

I'm not anti MARS. #If you think so, please re-read my post(s). #MARS has an emergency role as part of FEMA's information gathering process. #And, there are networks set up to accomplish informaton flow. #But, if your point is to point out FEMA's failings, I suggest that you think again about the purpose of all of the SHARES and other arrangements that exist. #Their purpose is to support FEMA.

RACES, ARES and any licensed amateur can operate on any frequency in a bonafide emergency to establish communications. #Read Part 97.403. #

While I recognize that your are EDUCATED, your approach is to blast us with what you have and how ready you are to help. #Fine. #And, thanks for your generosity. #Sorry, but your example of loaning you an expensive Harris amplifier isn't consistent with the issue of equipment that facilitates reliable emergency communications such as generators, fuel tanks, large solar arrays, etc. #Besides, HF MARS power levels, as I recall, have been restricted to 100W output. At least they were about a year ago.

Thanks again for your enthusiam. #But, again, think availability and reliability when it comes to local responders. #That's where the up front coordination, access authorization and interaction with local public safety organizations gives RACES and ARES just those attributes. #And, of course depends on how the local organizations interact....it can work or like everything else, can be screwed up too.

73

Lee
W6EM

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka7agn @ Aug. 01 2004,05:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For everyone's benefit who is reading and participating in this forum on QRZ.com, here is what the House Armed Services Committee said. The following statement on MARS was included in the House Armed Services Committee report which accompanied the Defense bills for 2000.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Your information is quite dated. #The FY 2000 Defense Appropriations Act was passed in 1999. #When Bill Cohen headed up the Department of Defense.

The perspective of the present Administration and Armed Services Committees would really be helpful..........

I hope the role envisioned for MARS hasn't lessened. #General Bell's actions (and the bureaucrat's response to objections over the station closure) may indicate otherwise, though. #One of the reasons I'll spend some time writing to folks in the Pentagon (besides the guy who doesn't have the time to listen).

73
Lee
W6EM

[w6nyr]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ Aug. 01 2004,06:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KF6NYR @ July 31 2004,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Patrick: #Please don't confuse me with anti-MARS sentiments expressed by others. #Perhaps your database on MARS callsigns doesn't go back to the early 1980s. #I can assure you that AAT9GN and AAV4IG were valid callsigns issued to me. #And, no, I never had a "/T" and operated as NCS quite a few times and passed lots of traffic. #So, I've been there. #Lots and lots of training on and off the air.

My points addressing ARES and RACES are that they have the relationships set up with local and regional organizations. #MARS does not. #And, MARS may have an emergency role, and indeed it does via the SHARES system, but you offer your station as an example. #What happens if you car won't start or something happens to YOU in an emergency precluding your being the "link"?
Depending upon certain individuals (to be ready and available) in the affected area unless they have a hardened operating facility like mobile command posts offer, is stretching the point too far. #They can and will be refuelled long before they run dry (and have plans for just that). #You don't. #Trying to find a gas station for your car or generator that can pump gas in a disaster will be a challenge. #Let alone an ATM that can dispense cash.

Sure, outside the affected area, individual civilian stations would be useful. #And, I do know about SHARES.

Please don't attack me on the health and welfare aspects of MARS. #That's now a secondary role, but, probably the most important to service members. #Less frequently used now, but still very valuable. #I'm sure that you could find, if you look and listen, to examples of multiple phone patches from Iraq and other locations via MARS stations. #They still happen.

I'm not anti MARS. #If you think so, please re-read my post(s). #MARS has an emergency role as part of FEMA's information gathering process. #And, there are networks set up to accomplish informaton flow. #But, if your point is to point out FEMA's failings, I suggest that you think again about the purpose of all of the SHARES and other arrangements that exist. #Their purpose is to support FEMA.

RACES, ARES and any licensed amateur can operate on any frequency in a bonafide emergency to establish communications. #Read Part 97.403. #

While I recognize that your are EDUCATED, your approach is to blast us with what you have and how ready you are to help. #Fine. #And, thanks for your generosity. #Sorry, but your example of loaning you an expensive Harris amplifier isn't consistent with the issue of equipment that facilitates reliable emergency communications such as generators, fuel tanks, large solar arrays, etc. #Besides, HF MARS power levels, as I recall, have been restricted to 100W output. At least they were about a year ago.

Thanks again for your enthusiam. #But, again, think availability and reliability when it comes to local responders. #That's where the up front coordination, access authorization and interaction with local public safety organizations gives RACES and ARES just those attributes. #And, of course depends on how the local organizations interact....it can work or like everything else, can be screwed up too.

73

Lee
W6EM[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well Lee,

If something happens to me, I have over 100 members just in Central and Southern California alone. They are all trained just as well as I am, I have no doubt that they will come through in an emergency and use their training.

If all of our station where grid powered, or powered by generators, this could present a problem. You are forgetting about Solar and such. We have more then 1 station that is "high power", solar powered (yes, it was not given to them). For myself, after 4 days, I will have to ask the locals for some gas, but every emergency I have been through (the last one I was trucking in aid by the 53' trailer load, as a volunteer, no I don't drive truck for a living, but I do have a class "A" drivers license for emergencies), supplies usually have made it through in 4 days, but you are correct, after the batteries die 2-3 days later, I am dead in the water and will have to let ARES and RACES handle all of the emergency communications.

I don't know how many real emergency situations you have participated in, but if it is that wide spread, the state and feds usually take it over from the locals in 48-72 hours. That is when the National Guard and FEMA take over, we have MOU'S with both agencies and we have the equipment to operate reliably on their frequencies. We also train with these agencies regularly through the shares network. And we have FEMA quarterly tests on FEMA frequencies that ALL MARS stations are invited to attend, as long as their equipment is NTIA compliant (for most radio's all it takes is a TCXO or OCXO, but their is a website to verify if your radio can be made to meet FEMA specs). I have never once heard an amateur call sign on a FEMA frequency in a drill, Mr. Hollingsworth would have a field day with that.

"Read Part 97.403." I have, but is your antenna system effective on various parts of the HF spectrum. I can transmit, without a tuner or antenna coupler from 1.8-50 MHz, and I can do it at 1500 watts (no it is not a dummy load). The FEMA frequencies DO NOT skirt the amateur bands like some MARS frequencies do, I have many members that have this same capability or similar capability as myself. Next time you have a ARES or RACES drill, fire up that NTIA compliant radio and DUMP 1500 watts into your antenna system on 8.500 MHz, then let me know how it worked.

Your MARS information is outdated, our power restrictions where substantially raised after 9/11. On a weekly basis with this bad propagation that has been affecting communication on the lower bands, I have my 3-500zg's brightly glowing in a NCS role, but I will more then gladly turn my amp off and run 25 watts if propagation is good.

The times I have toured ARES and RACES local stations, they had 1 HF antenna, usually a trapped/loaded vertical. I tried one of those once, it is in the garage, did not work well on 2.5,5,9 MHZ. Need it for your group?

I have been present at FEMA mobile operations centers, where all forms of communications failed in that center, and the cell phone in my pocket worked GREAT. If we would have had a MAJOR emergency at that time, the creek would have been pretty deep and we definitely would have had NO paddles, because I am sure that the cell phone in my pocket would have no longer worked either. But one saving grace, several MARS members where invited to this test, all of our vehicles would do what FEMA's could not. Communicate with the East Coast, RELIABLY on THEIR frequencies.

You needed a generator and a fuel tank?? Why didn't you say so? MARS members can get generators up to 10 KW without having too much paperwork involved; fuel tanks usually come with the military generators I have seen. Solar arrays we can't get, to many batteries, too heavy; not mobile enough, though we do have members that purchase their own

My approach to blast you is no different then the approach that you took towards kg6qmz. If you want to do some blasting, you better be prepared to take some back yourself; especially when your knowledge of what you are blasting is outdated.

You don't know about shares? The Federal system that is made up of at least 40% MARS members. You have to be accepted by SHARES after you meet certain qualifications. One is you have to be a member of a FEDERAL emergency organization, like MARS, CAP, FEMA, FBI, DEA, etc. Why the DEA, I don't know..... Try google.com and search "Shares Radio".

Lee, I am ready, but I am not anxious or in a hurry to test my skills as a radio operator. That means my wife and kids would be in danger (my wife is in law enforcement and I used to be, I very much have been there done that). She is on call and there long before any RACES or ARES member is (and I will probably be right next to her). I no more want to use my skills as a radio operator in a real emergency then I want to shoot someone with my 7.62 rifle or have to use CPR. But the difference is, I know how to use them, if need be. I have just broadened my options by NOT limiting myself to Amateur frequencies. MARS, CAP, MURS, GMRS and Amateur radio are ALL viable modes of communication, as long as you know their limitations. ARES and RACES are not a cure all. I support the locales (at least the plaque given to me by the county says so), and I support the non locales. I don't think I am going to save the world with a transceiver, but I have made a difference in quite a few lives, both local and non locals alike.

If you think that MARS is just about EEI reports these days, you are very wrong my friend.

You want to discuss why I have a class "A" drivers license and which trucking firm is better because they lended their trucks in an emergency now?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif


Good Day,


Patrick Smith


"Can't we all just get along", Rodney King, 198? (Yes! I was in the city when the riots broke out, Federal courthouse, down town, carying a box full of evidence for a case, watching the THUGS light parker center on fire, or at least try)

[w6em]

I'm getting a little more EDUCATED as time passes. Let's see, you're a no-code Technician, limited to voice operation on 6M and above. And with a total of 6 years in amateur radio (not to mention your many years prior in CB, no doubt)

No wonder that you have such an attitude with respect to HF amateur operation. Something you aren't able to do.

Perhaps if you had learned CW, like the rest of us, you'd be able to truly use an efficient mode when the batteries remaining Ampere-hours are precious.

Let me suggest that you could better spend your time and energy penning a letter to someone at the Department of Defense, in support of Mr. Wolff's concerns about the future of MARS in Europe and stateside, for that matter. And, after that, studying and learning the code at a paltry 5 words per minute so that you could join the amateur community on HF SSB.

And, yes, to answer the most important of your questions, I had lots of emergency event involvement in northern CA as a manager of Pacific Gas and Electric, including the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989. While you were still a CB'er.

73's

Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN, NorCal (and CeCal) Army MARS

[w6nyr]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ Aug. 01 2004,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm getting a little more EDUCATED as time passes. #Let's see, you're a no-code Technician, limited to voice operation on 6M and above. #And with a total of 6 years in amateur radio (not to mention your many years prior in CB, no doubt)

No wonder that you have such an attitude with respect to HF amateur operation. #Something you aren't able to do.

Perhaps if you had learned CW, like the rest of us, you'd be able to truly use an efficient mode when the batteries remaining Ampere-hours are precious.

Let me suggest that you could better spend your time and energy penning a letter to someone at the Department of Defense, in support of Mr. Wolff's concerns about the future of MARS in Europe and stateside, for that matter. #And, after that, studying and learning the code at a paltry 5 words per minute so that you could join the amateur community on HF SSB.

And, yes, to answer the most important of your questions, I had lots of emergency event involvement in northern CA as a manager of Pacific Gas and Electric, including the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989. #While you were still a CB'er.

73's

Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN, NorCal (and CeCal) Army MARS[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Lee,

You are a funny man. I had been a class 3 radiotelephone license from the time I was 13 (later upgrading to a class 1). At which time I learned Morse code. I had dropped my radio telephone license years ago after I decided to quit installing and testing police transceivers and become a police officer. The calling of electronics had never left me. After attending college and earning my degree, I went to work for General Dynamics working with Radar for missiles and gun systems. Quite honestly, CB and amateur radio never interested me until I had to start driving to the south bay everyday, where I worked. The company I worked for had an amateur radio club, so I got my license so I could talk to my friend’s everyday on a 2 meter repeater during the commute.

But since you are one of those super wazoo advanced licenses. People like you are the ones that turned me off to amateur radio; I have a CB sitting on my desk next to my hf gear, quite honestly it is been hard to tell the difference for years (between CB and Amateur that is). Your claim to fame is learning a little Morse code?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?? You are the people that made amateur radio sound just like CB.

Sorry son, I was working for a defense contractor on 10GHz +++ gear while your pitiful life left you having to learn Morse code to find someone to talk to. I have been gainfully employed around RF and the defense industry for a very long time. The people who trained me helped to invent RADAR.

But as always, it has to turn into a code/no code issue because that is all you have going for yourself. Seriously listen to 40 meters towards the top of the band; you think I want to partake in that?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif??

So let’s take inventory here, you used to string power lines after wind storms and I was working for a defense contractor designing RF circuits.

I was working as a law enforcement officer (to protect and serve), while you where stringing lines after wind storms.

I was repairing radios and installing them, while you where learning to be a lineman.

Starting to see a pattern here? You where a manual laborer while I had and still have a very robust career in electronics, RF to be exact.

I can see where you are an expert on RADIO and EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS, picking those splinter out of your fingers can really be an emergency, while you are climbing a power pole.

Once again, sorry son, don't dish it out unless you can receive a little back. You started on how great RACES and ARES were, way back, but how MARS was nearly useless.......Remember that?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Guess how I got into electronics, in a code class! I learned Morse code over 30 years ago to get my novice. You know, back when you had to have a Crystal Controlled transmitter and the license was good for only a year. I had my fill of people like you back then, and I can still tell your type has NOT changed.

So your claim to fame is Morse code and stringing downed wires? Once again, I am still working on my claim to fame, but thus far, it has included a family of 5, 2 excellent careers, several volunteer positions, and a very nice income, and killer retirement to come.

Now oh gosh, what do I have left to accomplish to be a MAN and fulfill my life? I know!!! Learn Morse code again so I can go to 40 meters and listen to old men complain about their GOITER....... HAHAHA NOT!

And of course, the only reason why I came to this board is because one of my people E-Mailed me the thread, you’ll notice my very first post was in response to your negativity about MARS.

Now Lee, Keep flapping your uneducated jaw and I will come out there and BUY that box you call a home and build a MARS station on top of it........LOL


Carry on,

Pat

[k4uug]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KT0DD @ July 28 2004,14:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What's next? Since reading can be done "Online", will we quit printing books since we now have newer technology, and no longer "need" them? Sheesh, I really wonder what our country is coming to sometimes. 73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Y A W N FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO READ A BOOK ON LINE AND THOSE WHO WANT TO READ A PRINTED BOOK,IT SHOULD BE LEFT UP TO THE READER NOT THE GOVERNMENT!WE HAVE CARS LETS GO BACK TO THE HORSE AND BUGGY!

[k4uug]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KF6NYR @ Aug. 01 2004,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ Aug. 01 2004,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm getting a little more EDUCATED as time passes. #Let's see, you're a no-code Technician, limited to voice operation on 6M and above. #And with a total of 6 years in amateur radio (not to mention your many years prior in CB, no doubt)

No wonder that you have such an attitude with respect to HF amateur operation. #Something you aren't able to do.

Perhaps if you had learned CW, like the rest of us, you'd be able to truly use an efficient mode when the batteries remaining Ampere-hours are precious.

Let me suggest that you could better spend your time and energy penning a letter to someone at the Department of Defense, in support of Mr. Wolff's concerns about the future of MARS in Europe and stateside, for that matter. #And, after that, studying and learning the code at a paltry 5 words per minute so that you could join the amateur community on HF SSB.

And, yes, to answer the most important of your questions, I had lots of emergency event involvement in northern CA as a manager of Pacific Gas and Electric, including the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989. #While you were still a CB'er.

73's

Lee
W6EM
Formerly, AAT9GN, NorCal (and CeCal) Army MARS[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Lee,

You are a funny man. I had been a class 3 radiotelephone license from the time I was 13 (later upgrading to a class 1). At which time I learned Morse code. I had dropped my radio telephone license years ago after I decided to quit installing and testing police transceivers and become a police officer. The calling of electronics had never left me. After attending college and earning my degree, I went to work for General Dynamics working with Radar for missiles and gun systems. Quite honestly, CB and amateur radio never interested me until I had to start driving to the south bay everyday, where I worked. The company I worked for had an amateur radio club, so I got my license so I could talk to my friend’s everyday on a 2 meter repeater during the commute.

But since you are one of those super wazoo advanced licenses. People like you are the ones that turned me off to amateur radio; I have a CB sitting on my desk next to my hf gear, quite honestly it is been hard to tell the difference for years (between CB and Amateur that is). Your claim to fame is learning a little Morse code?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?? You are the people that made amateur radio sound just like CB.

Sorry son, I was working for a defense contractor on 10GHz +++ gear while your pitiful life left you having to learn Morse code to find someone to talk to. I have been gainfully employed around RF and the defense industry for a very long time. The people who trained me helped to invent RADAR.

But as always, it has to turn into a code/no code issue because that is all you have going for yourself. Seriously listen to 40 meters towards the top of the band; you think I want to partake in that?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif??

So let’s take inventory here, you used to string power lines after wind storms and I was working for a defense contractor designing RF circuits.

I was working as a law enforcement officer (to protect and serve), while you where stringing lines after wind storms.

I was repairing radios and installing them, while you where learning to be a lineman.

Starting to see a pattern here? You where a manual laborer while I had and still have a very robust career in electronics, RF to be exact.

I can see where you are an expert on RADIO and EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS, picking those splinter out of your fingers can really be an emergency, while you are climbing a power pole.

Once again, sorry son, don't dish it out unless you can receive a little back. You started on how great RACES and ARES were, way back, but how MARS was nearly useless.......Remember that?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif #

Guess how I got into electronics, in a code class! I learned Morse code over 30 years ago to get my novice. You know, back when you had to have a Crystal Controlled transmitter and the license was good for only a year. I had my fill of people like you back then, and I can still tell your type has NOT changed.

So your claim to fame is Morse code and stringing downed wires? Once again, I am still working on my claim to fame, but thus far, it has included a family of 5, 2 excellent careers, several volunteer positions, and a very nice income, and killer retirement to come.

Now oh gosh, what do I have left to accomplish to be a MAN and fulfill my life? I know!!! Learn Morse code again so I can go to 40 meters and listen to old men complain about their GOITER....... HAHAHA # #NOT!

And of course, the only reason why I came to this board is because one of my people E-Mailed me the thread, you’ll notice my very first post was in response to your negativity about MARS.

Now Lee, Keep flapping your uneducated jaw and I will come out there and BUY that box you call a home and build a MARS station on top of it........LOL


Carry on,

Pat[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
NOW THAT WAS A SMACK DOWN ! THANKS PAT:p

[w6em]

I think I'll respond to two birds with one stone.....

First, N1OBN, you may have a purple heart, but your heart is not in the right place.

Now, Patrick. #You seem to have assumed a great deal about me. Unfortunately, its all quite a figment of your imagination.

You mentioned that you went to college. #If you earned a degree, what was it in? #Not in electrical engineering. #You would have said so. #I have a BS and and MS in Electrical Engineering. #And, am a registered professional engineer in more than one state. #I did climb a tower once, to prove what calculations predicted for induced current in ground counterpoise. #Probably while you were assembling dishes for your defense contractor.

Why on earth, if you really ever had a First Class Radiotelephone license, would you let it expire? #I got mine when I was a senior in high school. #From your Los Angeles FCC office, by the way. #I still have it even though its been downgraded to a General Radiotelephone License. #Oft referred to as "the Engineer's license." #It's been handy throughout the years, and helped me earn enough as chief engineer of several radio stations to finish my education. #By the way, it was a radiotelephone license, as opposed to a radiotelegraph license, and there was no CW requirement to have obtained it.

Well, now that I've dealt with that, you seem to profess having learned CW. #I think most will agree that once that they have learned it, they never unlearn it. #So, 5WPM should be easy for you, but I guess it isn't. Otherwise, you would be on HF as a general. #I'm normally an inclusive type when it comes to joining. #I even objected to incentive licensing back in the 60's that took away spectrum from our priveliges and gave it to the extra class DX hounds. #Well, I've moved on since then. #By the way, I was first licensed in December, 1961.

Thanks for your service as a peace officer. #And, your wife's too. #Too bad that you think so little of linemen. #For your information it takes a good deal more technical smarts than you might think to be one. #Several classes in eletrical theory. #It's not just about knowing how to climb a pole without pole steps. # Certainly more technical knowledge than what's needed to become a policeman.

And, as I've said before, thank you on behalf of the men and women of the US Army on your extensive MARS involvement, high-powered Harris amplifier, antenna and all. #I'd be right out there challenging you on how many messages that you've handled, to assist those on active duty deployment, if I still had my records. #Service to the men and women of the military was quite rewarding. #Much more so than filling out practice EEI reports.

By the way, I just penned a three page letter to an Assistant Secretary of Defense. #What have you done to support Mr. Wolff's issue? #If you are so connected in MARS, why don't you ask Mr. Sutton why I left MARS after 23 years? #If he's reading this, he has my permission to share my emails to him regarding the issue surrounding my resignation. #It was a morale issue.

I think I've said enough. #So, kindly move on and support MARS as you were encouraged to do by Mr. Wolff, when it needs your help. #I have. #Your turn. #Even if you can't copy CW, maybe you can write a letter. #Did you major in English or Journalism?

# # #
73,

Lee
W6EM

Oh, one last thing. #N1OBN, if you are proud of your purple heart, and you should be, you might want to consider moving down here to FL. #We have license plates that display them.

[AB9IW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KT0DD @ July 30 2004,17:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To AB9IW, Sometimes I need #to allow my blood pressure to fall before using a keyboard, so my response may have been a little strong. And I do respect military people worthy of respect. My father was a Tech Sgt./ tailgunner on B-17's in WW2 who spent 14 months in an Austrian prison camp (Thank God it wasn't inside Germany, as Dad said his outcome may have been quite different) I chose to help in civilian life providing energy to people (22 years in the oil/gas/geothermal fields)

However, sometimes cost isn't everything, and I agree with an above poster that Murphy (and sometimes Mrs. Murphy) rear their ugly heads when you are totally reliant on the latest and greatest. It may seem like archaic technology compared to modern stuff, but I still agree with the bumper sticker I saw that says" When all else fails - There's Amateur Radio. Keeping an old tool around is a good idea. You never know when it may be handy.73.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually, I agree that MARS is still a good thing to have around. I agree that "old technology" may still do a job when "new technology" fails. Indeed, I am not sure that the "shock and awe" that we inflicted in Iraq has or will take care of the problem. The Air Force alone, probably the Army alone, possibly the Navy alone, and almost certainly the Marines alone (all having sufficient transportation and supply lines, etc) could break things and kill people to whatever extent was desired in Iraq and even surrounding areas. But that will not settle the problem. I won't go into proposing solutions.

But I remember about 1962, in the Air Force Communications Staff Officer School, that I gave a short talk to the effect that the latest and greatest did not always surpass the tried and true. I used the Old Testament story of the giant Goliath, and his huge spear, etc, against the little shepherd boy (I think really a strong and fit grown man, but it doesn't matter) equipped with a sling and some smooth rocks.

Actually, I was thinking in terms of using propeller (low and slow) aircraft for ground support, and I guess now I would not, but then it seemed to me better than some alternatives.

I guess the problems with our current tanks, etc, have been overcome and they can survive in sandy deserts, but I hope we never have to try them for really long periods of time.

73,

Gene, AB9IW

[kb9ibw]

Mars is still needed in our communications for the Military. #The only problem that most of us see with Mars is that it is not very well publicized. #Like other Amateur Radio modes and nets, we tend to stay inside of the "BOX." #We need to utilize Amateur Radio to it's max and let the military know what we as Amateur's and Mars operators can, and will do in times of need. #We recently held an Amateur Radio Military Appreciation Day to honor our troops via Amateur Radio. #We felt that this would be a way to keep Amateur Radio alive among the Military members, and provide a service to our local communities. #The problem that we had was typical to amateur radio however. #Amateur's would rather fight each other, and not participate with Special Events that expose the hobby and showcase what we do and can do as a service to help our communities and the Troops. #The newer technology is great, however Amateur Radio is also great, and very relaible as it depends on the realtime operation of amateurs that dedicate themselves to making sure the job is done.
Let's all support each other, and promote Amateur Radio in a positive way. We can then expect others to use our services also. #Just think of what it would be like if we could have troops and related organizations from around the world hearing the citizens thank them for their service live over Amateur Radio, and then being able to reply back live to yhose citizens.
Yes, let's work to keep Mars alive, and also work more to let the world see Amateur Radio in a positive way. #Join us for ARMAD on May 28, 2005 and set up on or near a military base or VA Hospital to honor those that serve by Ham Radio. #Doing these type of events throughout the year keeps Mars and Nets alive too.
People are using the new modes because they don't we as amateurs are ther for them. We got a lot of positive respose during ARMAD, and people want to have this type of event held in their towns to show support and expose Amateur Radio.

Thank You;
KB9IBW / Emery
www.geocities.com/kb9ibw
www.nmam.org # #click on Photo's

[na4it]

Well, here I go, probably sticking my foot in my mouth.

Once again, I reiterate, I do not support closing ANY gateway station. I sent an email as requested, if the gentleman decided not to read it, that's his problem. And it if ticks him off at me, he can revoke my MARS privledges.

Some have made mention not much is known about the MARS program. Well, by what I understand, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY! Some of the information a MARS operator is privy to is confidential!

Fighting each other gets us no where. The only way to fix a problem is when we all pull together intelligently.

MARS operators have been very helpful to me. I have had a couple who decided to lay it down pretty hard when I goofed up on a net or passing traffic, but there again, that's their perogative. If they simply cannot stand the way I operate, they can file to have my MARS licensed yanked.

I got into MARS because I saw many of my friends being deployed. And MARS is a good way I can support them. Period.

I'm done now... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[ka7agn]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ Aug. 01 2004,08:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka7agn @ Aug. 01 2004,05:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For everyone's benefit who is reading and participating in this forum on QRZ.com, here is what the House Armed Services Committee said. The following statement on MARS was included in the House Armed Services Committee report which accompanied the Defense bills for 2000.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Your information is quite dated. #The FY 2000 Defense Appropriations Act was passed in 1999. #When Bill Cohen headed up the Department of Defense.

The perspective of the present Administration and Armed Services Committees would really be helpful..........

I hope the role envisioned for MARS hasn't lessened. #General Bell's actions (and the bureaucrat's response to objections over the station closure) may indicate otherwise, though. #One of the reasons I'll spend some time writing to folks in the Pentagon (besides the guy who doesn't have the time to listen).

73
Lee
W6EM[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Greetings, Lee.

I agree with your comments. I'm trying to get my hands on a more current version of the Committee's position on MARS. If I do, I'll post it on my MARS website ( http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf ) where I have the others now posted for all to read.

As I wrote ealier, I have already written the DoD IG's office since Mr. Hornik didn't read everyone's emails and knew that the IG office would. I'm now in the process of preparing a letter for my Congressman and Senator to address the bigger question: why hasn't the DoD implemented the items that the Committee gave them on MARS? If the DoD had done this then the entire MARS program would be in a better state of affairs, known by more service members, and in use throughout the DoD. More Command interest would probably be in place if the DoD had implemented the Committee's recommendations (provided in my ealier comments).

I will probably post a copy of my letter to my Congressman on this forum for others to read or use as an example (if they choose) in preparing their own letters to their Congressman or Senator and/or the DoD IG office. If you write the DoD IG office and wish to refer to my complaint that I filed with their office on MARS, the complaint number that has been assigned to my case is control number 93565.

Have a good day.

73,

Daniel V. Wolff, Jr. - AEA1AM / AEM1WF
Assistant Affiliate Coordinator, Europe
US Army Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
http://www.qsl.net/aem1wf
aem1wf@qsl.net

[WW3JR]

For those who say we don't need MARS, I refer you to the MSNBC article "Recycling cell phones for a great cause" posted August 2. From the mouths of babes Ladies and Gentlemen, take heed.

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb3ekb @ Aug. 03 2004,10<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who say we don't need MARS, I refer you to the MSNBC article "Recycling cell phones for a great cause" posted August 2. #From the mouths of babes Ladies and Gentlemen, take heed.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Good suggestion. #Here's the link to the article:
MSNBC Recycling of Cell Phones (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5581510/)

Everyone reading this thread can help, as Mr. Wolff has asked, by writing members of Congress and DoD officials to point out that MARS needs a more notable role.

It literally nauseates me to think that AT&T or somebody else is charging a soldier over $7,000 for him to use a phone while deployed in Iraq. #If DoD supplied every unit with an ICOM 706 or Yaesu FT100 and a little training, lots of phone patches and digital text could be handled for nothing out of pocket for our military personnel.

If you want to fight the AT&T lobby (that surely wouldn't want their for-profit overseas and satphone business to be lessened) it will take lots of us sending letters of protest. #I wish that I had seen the article before I #mailed my letter.

Thanks for sharing and if we all speak up, maybe DoD will listen..... #Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea to let NBC know about MARS. #They might do a follow up story.
That would get the word out.....


73

Lee
W6EM

[w6em]

To: #nightly@nbc.com

Hello. #I was readling your August 2, article on MSNBC's site concerning cell phone use by our military personnel overseas.

While the spirit and intent of the young people to raise funds is terrific, the thought of supplying the troups with more cell phones so that they will have to pay exhorbitant costs to make calls home really bothers me. #Especially when the service members must pay to use the phones.

It bothers me because since the Korean War, the Department of Defense has had a program called the Military Affiliate Radio System. #It is staffed both by the military and an extensive network of volunteer amateur radio operators here stateside. #This network has, as a mission, to connect military personnel overseas directly with their families and friends back home, via two way radio connection, at no cost to the miltary personnel.

Literally thousands of MARS "phone patches" as they are called have been made over the years. #Yet, today, MARS is not being implemented by DoD as it should be.

The Congress, in its FY2000 Defense Appropriations Act directed DoD to "raise the level of knowledge and utilization of the MARS program." #This clearly has not happened. #If it had, there wouldn't be soldiers with $7,900 cell phone bills to call home!!!

The cost to equip units in the field with commercially made, amateur radio transceivers and simple wire antennas to effect such connections is not significant. #Approximately $600 per radio, exclusive of the cost of some basic instruction on how to use the equipment.

Please consider a follow up article to inform the public about the MARS program, and what it has done over the years to keep military service people in contact with home. #In Korea, in Vietnam, and what it could do, if operated as it should be, for our current deployments overseas. #The late Senator Barry Goldwater (R-AZ) was a very active member of MARS and personally handled hundreds, if not thousands of phone patches and messages from Vietna