View Full Version : Keyboards and the Vagaries of
Aren't comments like this just uplifting?
"If you're going to use a keyboard and morse reader to get on cw, why bother? #Are you trying to show others that you're a cw op without being one? #
I'd bet that some of the same guys here blabbing about using readers are the same who are anti-code test. " - WA2ZDY
(I've been a CW operator almost 100% since 1983 OM and can copy conversational code in my head above 35 WPM and I have taught the code to several people who later got their licenses. #I am hardly "anti-code" and have never used a "code reader.")
"Tim, there is always the telephone !!!----" #K8ERV #
(Thanks Tom. #That someone whose copying speed is probably higher than the vast majority of hams and is simply outstripping his ability to send truely clean, manually sent CW at a matching speed and seeks to push the envelope in that regard by using a keyboard is surely justification to suggest he abandon CW and take to the landline, especially when CW is dying a slow and painful death overall.)
"As I've said elsewhere, using a keyboard to send CW is like hopping a commercial jet from NY to LA and when you arrive claiming what a great pilot you were." #W5HTW
(Well, if that is the case, then sending on a paddle or a bug is to a straight key what keyboards are to a paddle: an aid calling into question someone's pedigree as a "real" CW operator.)
Yep, the sour curmudgeons strike again.
While some posters made constructive comments, I was afraid that my original posting regarding the use of CW keyboards would end up in the all too common penchant Hams have to engage in the "American as Apple Pie" tradition of getting in someone's face to let them know, BY GOD, that "My Dog is Better Than Your Dog."
And if this were not a family website, I'd be using more colorful language to describe the latter.
To avoid this, I pulled my original post to kill the thread after the first response was so uplifting but even in the absence of it (just a little comment to ask if anyone else sends on a KB for conversation) the self-appointed heroes of Morse mount their pulpits to preach to the unwashed masses.
No wonder we are dying. #
Can you imagine any young kid who has little patience for his elders' uninformed preaching that often obtains in Ham Radio circles like this but who might, just might, have an interest in CW...can you imagine how fast he would burn shoe leather to get away from it never to earn a license while positing that Ham Radio is full of a bunch of nasty old (and middle-aged yet old in the negative sense) men?
You guys want the long and skinny on this issue?
1. #Most of the higher speed code I hear on the air is choppy, poorly spaced, and difficult to
# # understand in detail and this comment comes from a Ham who loves the Code and can
# # copy conversational code faster than the vast majority;
2. #Most of the guys who justify this by saying that a particular operator has "swing" or
# # "character" are doing little more than making excuses for mangled code;
3. #There are far fewer CW operators on the air today then when I was last active only 2
# #ago and most are not sending anywhere near 30 WPM. #Further, even the slower
# #WPM signals I hear are often mangled code.
4. #At least half the time, I cut the Q short because I cannot comfortably understand what
# #the hell the other guy is saying due to a fist that is sometimes downright awful (not just some errors here and there, but simply "another code altogether) and this obtains at all speeds;
5. # In nearly all cases , "easy copy" at the higher speeds is NOT sent by someone,
# # using a paddle or a bug. #It is almost always, with a precious few exceptions amounting
# #to maybe two or three operators I have QSOed with over my ham career, being sent by
# #an operator using a keyboard.
6. #Some objectors to keyboards in casual operation readily admit that they use machine
# #generated code in contests. #Wonder why? #Could it be that they cannot send smoothly
# #and error free enough, the kind of code that is necessary in competition?
OK, so I am at a point where I have been manually sending code and receiving by ear for over 20 years and my receiving ability is in the middle to upper 30 WPM range but I find that to really push the envelope and be able to fly along and send at a matching speed above 30 WPM and eventually above 40 WPM....that my fist simply will not negotiate those speeds to really, truly, send smooth code adhering to a high standard that is nearly error free.
And I get on here to inquire if anyone else is doing that...and I get preached at by the sour curmudgeons who, if my experiences on the air with mangled code being received at least half and usually more of the time is any indication, that many if not most of them cannot send at extremely high speeds without using a KB either when the sending is judged by critical standards.
And I simply wondered that after having achieved an upper level of receiving ability over 20 years of being a Ham that perhaps I too #should take a long, hard look at how I send code at those higher speeds and consider using a keyboard, that perhaps I could learn to receive in my head even faster, owing to the practice coming from having higher and higher speeded QSOs with other KB operators arising therefrom.
Yet the Curmudgeons are the "real" CW operators, notwithstanding that most people, according to the ARRL Handbook section on "The Code", #simply cannot control a paddle or bug to send really, truly, good code at speeds above 30 WPM and a quick listen on the bands confirms it.
Am I just holding myself to a higher standard while subordinating my ego when it comes to being able to manually send high speed CW while others are not, and they often assault my ears by sending at speeds for which a keyboard IS necessary for most people to send well at those speeds, yet they pontificate that they are the "real" CW operators, with a few at least hinting that I am not a genuine CW operator and should abandon it altogether for "more suitable" modes.
What the hell is that all about?
Brevity. #One guy talks of "brevity" being a good thing on CW.
While the proper use of abbreviations is certainly good practice, all too often the "brevity" breaks down into #"RST 579 - NAME PAUL PAUL- #QTH NJ NJ - WX RAIN LIL FOG -
73 - DE_" and THIS is supposed to be a conversation.
I know because for the past 20 years, I've had several thousand of these meaningless cookie cutter QSOs with most of the remainder rising just above that level...but afterall, this is what CW is SUPPOSED to be according to the high priests of Morse Code, at least as presented by some of them here.
I think that it comes down to this: #A good deal of the time, the other guy cannot send and receive well enough to have a real conversation and simply sends the same block of meaningless basic information over,,,and over...and over again.
Think I am kidding?
Try this, as I have.
On an "over" after the other guy has sent RIG, RST, QTH but little else of substance.....don't send your callsign and simply say something outrageous like #"PRESIDENT BUSH IS HR WID ME IN SHACK- BK."
I've done this many times over the years and about half the time I get a response like this:
FB TIM - RIG KNWD 520 - ANT VERT - BCNU 73 DE __. (!!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
So the long and short?
Yeah I agree that beginning operators should not use a keyboard or even a paddle when learning CW.
But when someone who has reached a plateau in sending ability consistent with really good code modeled on an exacting standard yet wants to push the envelope to take advantage of an even higher receiving ability and really fly along at 35 plus and even 40 plus sending AND receiving.... to use a keyboard in that regard does nothing to lessen his status as a "real CW operator" the sour curmudgeons be damned.
Some days, it doesn't pay to get out of bed.
TP
k0ews
07-22-2004, 05:06 AM
I don't think anyone begrudges you using a keyboard. They are just stating their opinion. I also don't buy the arguement that using a keyboard is cheating. It is only cheating when the operator doesn't know CW. I know plenty of great CW operators that use keyboards. Matter of fact, the guy that gave me the idea of getting one like his (K1EL k-20) has been a ham for 50 years and was a telegrapher in the Navy. He likes it for its ease of use, and so do other experienced operators.
I am the one who mentioned that I like to use them in contests but not for general use. Two reasons. In a contest, I can get the computer to automatically send, and I can type in and log at the same time. This gets the QSO count going pretty fast. We used a laptop at Field Day, and at times the QSO rate was 85 per hour. That's a pretty good clip, and would be slowed down by doing the keying manually. I've done it the other way too with using a set of heavy paddles and paper logging and paper duping and the computer wins, hands down.
As for my using my bug for general use, I worked damn hard to get my bug fist presentable. I'm a musician, and I took it on like I would learning to perform on an instrument with daily practice. That CWGet program can be very unforgiving to bugs and straight keys. I didn't put my bug on the air until I could send into that program and it could decode me. It took lots of work for me to get there, and I don't apologize for using my bug. I enjoy it.
I do know what you are talking about with faster operators. Many of the European stations that I've worked this evening don't space their words; they just run characters at you 30 wpm.
You shouldn't worry what others think of your using a keyboard. I used to use one quite a bit too. Truth be told, if I'm running CW, and have been drinking, I'll go to the keyboard, as I enjoy a cold beer or two when doing CW, but it does strange things to my fist, so I do like to go to keyboard or computer at that point, just to spare the other guy's ears. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I'm sorry you got the responses you did. I never got to read your original post. If you like using the keyboard, then use it! I know a lot of great ops that do. By the way, what kind of keyboard do you have? 73
9V1VV
07-22-2004, 05:49 AM
Anyone using a keyboard for CW should be dipped in hot tar, shackled in stocks in the public square and pelted with rotten tomotoes. His shack should be raized to the ground and the straight key ops dance upon the smoking ruins singing comical songs.
Blah blah blah etc etc.....
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8LXR @ July 22 2004,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
TP,
Let me add my bit.
I agree, Quite a few of these so called "EXPERT" cw ops send terrible code at speed. I can honestly say that I use a Keyboard to send CW. I can also send CW with my Straight key (which I do on SK night) and I can send with my Bug. I am proficient at about 25 wpm. However, I find that I would much rather copy (and I don't use any machine to copy for me) any machine generated cw such as a Keyboard because most of the ops out there can't actually send cw worth a crap at speed. I am constantly copying cw where the Number 5 has about 10 dits in it because some ops just can't control their bugs. I get a lot of compliments and a lot of remarks about how easy it is to copy my Keyboard generated CW. I make maybe 1 mistake in every 10 qso's so the error rate is very low. I still copy by ear but I send by keyboard most of the time because I have arthritis and I prefer to send PERFECT code. I hope to work you on HF some time and I will know that I will be able to copy you. keep it up and others will definately enjoy the fact that you are sending code that is easy for them to copy! I have NO problem with keyboard CW and I am ashamed of anyone that does have a Problem with it!
Don't let those guys that post Negative things get you down. It is their way of getting their kicks. just ask them to Join you on HF for a Sched and see how well they actually can do with their pounders http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Gordon
N6WK
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k0ews @ July 22 2004,06:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IIf you like using the keyboard, then use it! I know a lot of great ops that do. By the way, what kind of keyboard do you have? 73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
EWS,
You have to be one of the most Polite gentlemen I have ever met.
Hats off to you OM.
Gordon
N6WK
KA9VQF
07-22-2004, 06:38 AM
My very good family friend and Elmer W0BCJ now sk could send and head copy like a machine. He had problems sending slow enough for me to copy way back when I was studying for my novice test. We did this on channel 14 walkie-talkies {100mw} in the CB band late at night.
He went to the expense of getting and setting up a keyboard so he was sending perfect code for me. Another sk and good friend had a code reader setup with a Vic20 with his own CB and was able to copy and print each of the practice sessions and later he drove the 20 miles to my place and gave me the hard copies so I could check them against what I had written down.
They would both use paddles left handed so they could write, when nessassary, with their ‘skill hand’.
I envy them and keep at the practice but for what ever reason it just doesn’t seem to soak in.
WA2ZDY
07-22-2004, 07:51 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8LXR @ July 21 2004,21:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Aren't comments like this just uplifting?
"If you're going to use a keyboard and morse reader to get on cw, why bother? #Are you trying to show others that you're a cw op without being one? #
I'd bet that some of the same guys here blabbing about using readers are the same who are anti-code test. " - WA2ZDY
(I've been a CW operator almost 100% since 1983 OM and can copy conversational code in my head above 35 WPM and I have taught the code to several people who later got their licenses. #I am hardly "anti-code" and have never used a "code reader.")[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Let me see. You quoted me, correctly I might add, and it's pretty clear I was talking about code readers. So how you got me mixed into your rant about poorly SENT cw . . . Shooting in the dark, eventually you're bound to hit something. And I daresay I hit a nerve . . .
Let me see. You quoted me, correctly I might add, and it's pretty clear I was talking about code readers. #So how you got me mixed into your rant about poorly SENT cw . . . # Shooting in the dark, eventually you're bound to hit something. #And I daresay I hit a nerve -WA2ZDY
LXR:
Precisely OM.
You hit a nerve but it may not be the one you had in mind.
You hit the sore nerve I have about a phenomenon in Ham Radio that has always annoyed me lo these past 21 years: #The penchant some (not all!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #of the more experienced operators have to look for any opening whereby they can posture themselves superior to others in this or that pursuit and thereby gain points solely for ego's sake and often without any real justification (as obtained here.)
Such offerings are not meant in a spirit of being helpful or part of a brotherhood, no, far from it. #
They have a nasty and cutting quality to them and I wonder that since so many making such offerings #are also self-appointed spokesmen for Ham Radio speaking with loud voices and at every opportunity...I wonder how many potential recruits or the newly licensed into our ranks are driven away never to darken Amateur Radio's door again, fleeing while covering ears burning with the Sour Curmudgeon's rancor.
Yes... I pulled the original posting when the first response came rolling in making it look like this would be yet another "My #*!*^% #is bigger than yours" so-typical-of-ham-radio-today-rant, when not even the title of the thread which remained had anything to do with code readers but it surely represented an opportunity for you to stroke your ego by running off on a tangent.
So you will forgive me if I regard it as having been you who was "shooting in the dark."
OUT.
Tim
N8LXR
Extra Class (First time ever that I have listed this, but
# # # # # # # # since we are all into status and posturing...)
K3STX
07-22-2004, 11:02 AM
Tim,
You should calm down. I can understand at first glance why someone would be offended by the use of keyboards for "casual" use below 25 wpm, but it was not clear to me at least that the point (as you now state it) is that you are maxed-out on receiving in the mid-thirties and want to send to match. These guys you ragged on are real CW ops, and yes, by and large we are curmudgeons. But by now you already know this. The last thing we need is class warfare among CW ops!!
There is EXCELLENT high speed CW on the air on 40 meters, often around 7 am local time, before work, and in the early evening. By 0300 UTC most are asleep.
The keyboard will help. The only way to increase your speed is get on the air and have QSOs (where have I heard this before). But I am in your boat exactly, it is easier to scare up a 40+ wpm QSO when you are sending properly spaced code. And there is nothing wrong with that! I am one of those who does NOT like the banana-boat swing, at high speeds it becomes really difficult to copy.
High speed CW is not about hearing letters, it is hearing words. After about 70 wpm an entire word is a fraction of a second long, no time to translate letters. It is a very enjoyable way to operate CW, much more natural and it is truly a language at that point, not simply a bunch of foreign letters.
Your keyboard will help you send/receive faster, which will help you become a better CW operator and will help at all speeds, not just QRQ. I don't think there are ANY QRQ guys who use paddles; fingers just can't move that fast.
paul
KB1GYQ
07-22-2004, 11:35 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ July 22 2004,07:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">... The last thing we need is class warfare among CW ops!!
...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually, that would be a refreshing break... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I like it when an op uses a keyboard, because it makes the code easier to copy on my end. I think all the technology that is used in a shack today is part and parcel of the developing nature of ham radio.
Much of this devolves to what you prefer. I used a keyboard for a spell at field day one year, but found it distracting and awkward. From using a computer for logging, I find that much time is saved once familiar with its use. Consequently, more practice with a keyboard in a contest should make its use more comfortable and efficient.
I feel that one should learn to use cw as a manual skill to send and receive, because developed skills are something to cherish at all levels. That does not mean that there is no place for a keyboard and a code reader. The same can be said of the SSB operator who operates with skill.
Chris
K3STX
07-22-2004, 01:38 PM
GYQ,
We COULD have a war between CW ops on all sorts of topics (bugs vs. paddles vs. straight; banana-boat or not;words vs. abbreviations, etc...). But it wouldn't be fun; nobody would go home crying as they do so often around here.
paul http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
K3STX
07-22-2004, 01:43 PM
Chris,
IMHO there is no place for a code reader in Ham radio. Unless you consider your brain a code-reader, in which case it is OK to use one. If you can't copy the code with your brain you are not copying code. I think RTTY and PSK31 are modes where a computer does the deciphering for you. Sure , technology advances, but is there not a point where the using the International Morse code to communicate becomes something DIFFERENT by using technology (like a code-reading device).
If you can copy it with your audio gain turned off you are not copying code.
paul
STX:
Hi OM, how are you doing?
I don't really care one way or the other about CW and keyboards, who's a "real" this and that...blather all of it.
I like CW. It's a great tradition in Ham Radio.
But it's only a part of Ham Radio, not the whole kit and caboodle.
In the bigger picture, it is comments such as arise from some of us experienced ops both on here and on the air that are often aimed at newcomers that have and will play a big part in our eventual demise.
Let's face it, some of us experienced ops have dropped the ball, maybe even a majority have.
Maybe I am guilty of it myself but I try to at least recognize it as a failure of leadership and certainly not a badge of honor.
All too often, the newcomer or inexperienced (and sometimes even the experienced op) will have vitriol lobbed at him at even slight provocation on the air and here on QRZ over some issue of "who is the real" whatever.
I notice that very often those doing so have not even really read the whole thread, yet that does not stop them from leveling harsh judgments about who is a "real" this and that, as they see a fine opening to bolster their egos and let their cannons rip.
That is kind of what happened in this thread with some, but not all, of the comments.
It would be OK if the comments arising from such people were regarded as having been the remarks of someone on the fringes, but no. #
They are often and perhaps even usually highly regarded leaders in our community holding positions of influence in clubs and other bodies.
We are so steeped in tradition that I feel there has come a point that Ham Radio's past, while certainly wonderful in its own right when regarded in proper perspective, is one of the main things marginalizing us in the modern era, or at least the stubborn habit of hanging onto it as though it must return, that anyone not adhering to it is a lid or not a "real" this and that.
That is where the "you're not a real" whatever BS comes from: #When newer Hams and even experienced ones try something new, they are not part of the past and hence, are part of what is regarded by many more experienced operators as a threat: #The future.
Note that the person lobbing the criticism rarely offers anything constructive as they long for Ham Radio's Golden Age when everybody built their stations from the ground up, the tubes glowed with a cheerful light, #almost everyone could fly along at 35 WPM using a hacksaw blade for a key, and even the average Ham knew enough theory to win him an RF engineering degree, or so they imagine it.
Today's younger set, and even older non-Hams have scant little patience for this in our fast paced, modern world.
We cannot pontificate that they must learn the code and do everything just like it was done in 1980, 70, 60, 50 and even before without giving the impression that Ham Radio is nothing more than a middle aged and senior mens' club longing for the "old days."
That time is past. #Now is now, then was then.
CW is no longer THE mode. #It is only ONE mode and in today's world, some Hams will be telegraphers and others won't -ever.... and that from a CW operator who loves the code.
It's that simple, it's reality, and to pine for the past will do nothing to change it.
Back in the early days and well into the 20th century, technology was such that one simply HAD to be a proficient telegrapher to effectively operate an Amateur Radio station and thereby offer something of value to the public.
That time is past and it is this and other issues revolving around newer ways of doing things that ends up in the "vitriol-fest" that so many OTs like to revel in.
We have:
Techs against Generals (and vice versa) and up;
Contesters against non-contestors;
Digital modes against other modes;
Guys who build stuff and guys who don't;
....and yes, guys who use a keyboard to send high speed code against those who say that "real" CW ops use a straight key, paddle, or bug.
With a few of the comments, I received my dose of vitriol for the latter and I've been licensed for 21 years and am an Extra Class CW operator and all over whether or not I should use a keyboard notwithstanding that I can copy higher speed code but cannot send well at those speeds.
Can you imagine what the completely inexperienced must go through in some quarters?
This is really not good, especially when at this juncture in our history, when Ham Radio is slowly but surely being "rendered incompatible with modern living arrangements" given antenna restrictions of every ilk, when BPL threatens to make our radio lives a living hell, and all the rest of it....hmmm....no, this should be the time when Hams of all persuasions form a common interest to safeguard the future of our great service and stop all this petty nonsense.
Instead we're arguing over keyboards and paddles, whether people should learn the code, how lousy contesters are or aren't and all the rest of it.
Related to this is that many of us experienced operators will have ONE chance to influence a newcomer and if we blow it by pontificating about the past in judgmental fashion about what is a "real" this and that, more likely than not we have lost an opportunity to groom someone who may carry the Amateur Radio tradition forward and maybe even become a high speed CW operator too, and thereby carry that tradition forward as well.
So that is what got me a little annoyed.
Not keyboards, not my fist, nothing like that.
IF I stink as a high speed operator when it comes to sending and thereby use a keyboard to compensate, well then, God just didn't bless me with that kind of fine motor coordination and that's just fine with me.
I have other talents that He gave me of value to Ham Radio and other parts of society writ-large and the issue of whether or not I am a "real" CW operator is of small consequence in comparison.
It was, however, that I witness all to often the invective of OTs and others who should be offering positive encouragement as opposed to bolstering their sense of superiority over whatever issue is at hand, especially when Ham Radio as an institution is being attacked from so many quarters in American society today.
73,
Tim
N8LXR
LXR and I are on the same frequency and in agreement on this issue..
It's the POORLY sent CW that drives me NUTZOID!
I've been a commercial CW op, military net CW op, and have been doing CW for over 35 years.. so I know what good, bad, and indifferent CW sounds like.
I'd RATHER a guy use a keyboard with a bit of skill and send REALLY pleasant-to-copy CW (regardless of speed) than some 'speed merchant' who doesn't have full and complete control of his bug/keyer/straight key at ANY speed.
When I HAVE to copy such sending... such as in traffic nets or times when the MESSAGE has to get copied.. I'll put up wit it. Other than that.. Like LXR.. I'm OUTTA there and end the QSO as politely and quickly as I can.
I won't comment on code READERS to take the place of copying the code by ear.. that's (as one poster noted) like flying from LA to BAltimore on a jet and then saying 'Man! I just flew that plane all the way! WOW!)
Am I a perfect-fist guy? Nope, I'm not.. but I AM smooth, clean, and quite good up to about 18-20 with the Straight Key, about 30 with the 'bug', and 40-45 WPM with my keyer.
I send good, clean CW and don't go much faster than that because my instrument (and my hand/arm) can't deal with it cleanly above those speeds for the particular key that I use.
The 'KEY' (pun intended) is to LEARN to use the tool effectively. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE until you adn the tool are 'meshed and comfortable together' YOU know what the limitations of your own ability are AND the limitations of the tool you are using.
LXR is 100 percent correct... if using a keyboard is what it takes to send good, clean, crisp CW.. then HAVE AT IT!!
73
K3FT
BTW.. 'rotten CW' is NOT a new thing. W1AW himself wrote a series of articles entitled 'ROTTEN SENDING' wayyy back which were published in QST.
The following quote comes from the fine web page below:
http://www.cebik.com/ugger.html
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The "editorial" was reprinted in the December 1940 issue of QST. The word "ugerumf"--while mentioned in this writing, was actually part of poorly sent exchange by a "poor gink."
A portion of the text reads:
"BIRRGRMP BRU ROTARY GE GE UGERUMF OM WITH MY SET RETTYSNITCH SPITTY TONE HIT IN POTIMUS? Now what do you suppose the poor gink was trying to say when he unreeled that? You have to guess a lot in wireless, and how would you guess this?" (TOM)
Yes UGERUMF--not the more popular spelling--UGERUMPH--was used (at least in the 1940 reprint) Perhaps the "ph" modifies this to a noun?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Kinda looks like the sort of CW I have tried to read on occasion ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif BTW ( TOM ) refers to Maxim, himself "The Old Man"
73 from Jim AG3Y
K3STX
07-22-2004, 02:28 PM
Chuck,
I would love to see copies of those W1AW articles. Any idea how to get them? From the League?
LXR:
Yes, I think we agree basically. But I disagree that "newbies" who come in will never fully be accepted and will never really "be a part" of the old ways. CW types stick together. I'm not old, but I've been around a while. I was not licensed in the "Golden Age", and while I built my rig, it was from a kit. Ham's today can do the same thing and feel just as much a part of this tradition as (fill-in OT here); they just have to want to do it. If they do not care about it, they will not be accepted. It's as simple as that.
OTs sense newbies distain for tradition like dogs sense fear. (Hey, that's pretty funny.)
paul
k0ews
07-22-2004, 02:50 PM
N8LXR:
Yes, there is that problem in ham radio today, as in society. We are all different, and have different interests and there is so much more out there today than there was so many years ago. I'm a new ham, and hardly what I would consider a curmudgeon at only 38. I started teaching ham radio to the young this last year, and I do know that there is a lot more out there today to occupy a young person's time, and if we do get them in the door, keeping them here can be a challenge. I believe that this was brought up at Dayton too. We all should take part in welcoming new hams, no matter what their ability or interest is; WE NEED TO CREATE AN ATMOSPHERE ON THE AIR IN WHICH PEOPLE WANT TO GET BACK ON THE AIR! Right now, the airwaves are much more polite than these forums, and perhaps the forums could be a little "nicer" too. If QRZ is someone's gateway to ham radio, then these forums should at least be civil. There is a real lack of respect that I see, and it's too bad. Everyone, and I mean everyone has something that is valuable and worthwhile about them. This need for validation because you do code, contest, vote Republican, do emergency communication, eat a low fat diet, eat a low carb diet, etc., etc., ad nauseum gets really old. We are all hams, and need to treat others with respect. One of my high school kids had a phrase on a book one day, it's very fitting to the thread here: Mean People Suck.
I've only had my ticket for 4 years. Call me strange, or in the minority, but the day I got my ticket, I put out my callsign on a local repeater, and got answered and welcomed. Within a week, I was welcomed into ham radio by most of the local hams. Most all of them are at least 25 years older than me. We are a generation apart, and you know what? To this day, I look forward to eating breakfast with that whole crew on Saturday more than I do most things all week.
Some of those guys are in their 80s, but they are a blessing to be around. Why? They could give a rip about what I had to do compared to what they had to do. They themselves are different. Contesters, boat anchor collectors, builders, QRPers, emergency volunteer types, 2 meter operators, digital operators; we all get together every week, and enjoy each other. Some of the old timers give me parts and help me learn to build stuff and show me their old gear, I come and help them with their computers and other stuff. I got one of my friends into digital stuff, and it opened up a whole new world for him. Same thing with my Dad. Now we talk more on PSK than any other mode.
Personally, I would LOVE some kid that I taught to try CW even with the aid of a reader and a keyboard. If that gets them on the air with CW, so be it; at least they are on the air. I figure if they do that long enough, they will enjoy it, and the magic will take. The bottom line is that to get people to stay in ham radio, ham radio needs to be something worth staying involved with. Just a few thoughts. By the way, you never told me what kind of keyboard you had. If you are interested, K1EL makes a dandy. I know his very popular model K-20 sold out twice, but he is developing a newer, better K-40. It is way better than MFJ, and runs for less than 30 bucks, and you get to assemble it yourself, and it goes together in only an hour or two. Here is the link if you are interested. http://www.k1el.com/
Enjoy, and Peace.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hey there STX:
"Yes, I think we agree basically. But I disagree that "newbies" who come in will never fully be accepted and will never really "be a part" of the old ways.
CW types stick together. I'm not old, but I've been around a while. I was not licensed in the "Golden Age", and while I built my rig, it was from a kit.
Ham's today can do the same thing and feel just as much a part of this tradition as (fill-in OT here); they just have to want to do it. If they do not care about it, they will not be accepted. It's as simple as that."
LXR replies:
To me, there should be no "newbie" or OT.
There is only a fellow Ham. #
If the person I am dealing with is a fellow Ham needing instruction (and ALL of us are "Newbies" at something in Ham Radio, I dare say that damn few of us OTs know squat about moonbounce for instance), I will offer it in a friendly, nonjudgmental fashion to the best of my ability.
If they accept my advice, OK. #
But if they don't, if they want to try something new or a different way, then fine, (so long as it's legal but even then, it's on them) #I am still glad that they are a part of the Amateur community and will do what I can to help them in whatever pursuit obtains and encourage their future participation and I do not CLASSIFY them as not having a Ham Radio pedigree on a par with mine.
Anything beyond that gets into the class warfare that only drags us down.
Let's face it, some of our "traditions" are just plain silly and while they may have served some purpose years ago, they really don't any longer.
Requiring CW is one of them, I add at great peril.
Another is the idea that CW QSOs have to be "brief" to the point of being basically ridiculous for their lack of real personal interaction.
Another is the penchant some ops have to send BOTH stations' callsign on EVERY over. # Maybe this made sense when receivers were not so good, the bands were jammed with signals, relaying was common, #or maybe it was required legally at some point, but it gets on my nanny-goat in 2004!
Look OM, I know my callsign, ya don't have to keep sending it over and over again, and sending your call sign once every ten minutes is just fine, OK?
Yet another is the idea that a Ham should build major portions of his station (those types are still around) when hypocritically, the same OTs making this argument run a Kenwood 2000 and a commercial beam on a store bought tower, usually purchased with a generous retirement stipend.
Yet another is the licensing "classes." #
There should one class: #Amateur and nothing more. #
Argue over the requirements if you will but the "ranks" only breed animosity between "classes" of Hams.
And here is the one really big one: #That being a Ham for however many years makes you somehow more entitled and ipso facto a better Ham than someone who has come recently... and in the absolute, by God!
This is the kind of stuff that obtains in college fraternities but is no less juvenile in Ham Radio.
We should, rather, be trying to relate how much FUN and intriguing Ham Radio is, rather than making it into some sort of forbidding enterprise where someone just has to "measure up" to be a part of the group, while #assuming some lower status like pledges in a college fraternity that are to be hazed until they accept "our ways."
Yep...this is Ham Radio's "nasty side" and boy do I hate it.
It's one of the reasons why I will not join any more clubs and frankly, one of the reasons why I have scant little personal interaction with fellow Hams other than on the air.
I've simply seen this "we're gonna save the world with Ham Radio and you better be a good soldier or else" BS too often and so, I go it alone whether contesting or while working on whatever project I have my hands on at the moment.
So, we can say that "they won't be accepted," but I have to tell you, THEY (assuming we are talking about younger hams as is often the case) will be here long after WE are gone and THEY are the future of Ham Radio.
We should do nothing to drive them away....even if it means that they will not accept "the old ways" and remanding them to the outer fringes of the Amateur Service is the worst thing we can do.
73,
Tim
k4uug
07-22-2004, 03:20 PM
"IT'S JUST ANOTHER MODE" http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
EWS:
Hi there OM and thanks for your input.
You have captured a lot of what I have been trying to relate to my fellow OTs (Gee...OT...I AM getting old! HI HI).
I am very glad that you got your license and are enjoying Ham Radio and especially that the OTs in your club are helping you out and not trying to jam "the old ways" down your throat.
There IS a God. LOL.
Anyway, the keyboard program I am planning to use is called SERIAL KEY.
It is freeware and can be downloaded on the net at ZERO cost and it simply turns your laptop computer into a CW keyboard, complete with a never ending buffer, memory buffers, and lots of other features too.
If you want to try it yourself, just do a Google Search for SERIAL KEY by KF6RLU and you should find the website where it can be downloaded from.
73 and hope to work you on the air soon.
Tim
N8LXR
W5HTW
07-22-2004, 03:36 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8LXR @ July 21 2004,20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To avoid this, I pulled my original post to kill the thread after the first response was so uplifting but even in the absence of it (just a little comment to ask if anyone else sends on a KB for conversation) the self-appointed heroes of Morse mount their pulpits to preach to the unwashed masses.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's awfully difficult, I would think, to kill a thread by posting another multi-screen rant. And then continuing on even beyond that. "Die, thread, die! But let me keep you alive a dab longer, for me to have my say!"
Nope, I don't care if you use a keyboard. And I would not refuse to talk to you on CW. But I don't relate typing skills to Morse code skills. Can't brag how good you are at Morse when you are really just good at typing.
But then I can't brag how good I am at Morse, either, as the age has certainly slowed me down a bunch! And yes, I do see using a keyer as a form of cheating. Of course, with the keyer I actually have to know Morse - I have to know the correct number of dits and dahs in a character, and the correct spacing, which would not be true if I were typing on a keyboard. I have to handle the paddle to produce readable code, again something not true with a keyboard.
Yep, It's all opinion. And you can kill this thread a few more times if you'd like!
73
Ed
"Nope, I don't care if you use a keyboard. #And I would not refuse to talk to you on CW. #
(Gee, how nice of you OM! Your charity is breath taking.)
But I don't relate typing skills to Morse code skills. #Can't brag how good you are at Morse when you are really just good at typing."
W5HTW
LXR replies:
The thread was loaded with responses after I tried to kill it based on just the title regarding keyboards and that was what prompted me to post further.
Several jumped to conclusions that I wanted to use a code reader and imagining, I guess, that I was an inexpereinced CW operator seeking to substitute a computer for really knowing the code, which I am not.
That an experienced CW operator who DOES know the proper number of dits and dahs to form a letter on a paddle, hacksaw blade, straight key, pair of wires touching... and can send good code at more moderate speeds... and can copy those letters into words well into the 30 WPM range, yet realizes that like MOST people (undoubtedly to include some of the pontificators on this subject if my experience on the bands is any indication), #controlling a paddle to form really smooth code at those higher speeds is beyond his ability and thereby opts to send CW on keyboard after having mastered it otherwise...... should raise no issue of any sort.
I won't, like so many, bolster my ego yet assault other operators' ears with a mishmash of tones.
Like I said, "some days it doesn't pay to get of bed."
TP
Back in the 70's and early 80's I had the privilege of hanging around with some of the grand old men of cw, mostly on 40 meters. #Many of those guys were former military and commercial operators who thrived on pushing the envelope on cw speed, accuracy and conversation interactivity (through use of break-in). #Real died in the wool cw men.
When the initial glitches and shortcomings were worked out and cw keyboards became available through a fairly large number of manufacturers, every high speed cw operator I knew started using them. #Boards became the solution to the common challenge of being able to copy at much faster speeds than one can send using paddles or bugs. Many were so motivated to use this newfangled method of sending that they taught themselves to type.
Heathkit got on the bandwagon as did Skipjack, DGM, Info-Tech and quite a few other manufacturers. #I still have my Info-Tech M300 but prefer the smoother key action of a PC keyboard connected to a MFJ 451.
One of the early board users was Jim Ricks W9TO (sk) who invented the Hallicrafter HA-1 TO keyer. #Jim was an extraordinary cw op who could send beautiful code at 60+ with paddles and when we used his board he got into the 80+ range. #Some of the guys were in the 100 wpm arena. #Not to show off or impress anybody, they were simply honing their skills and doing more with cw.
There was a little bit of good natured ribbing. #Many times I'd be in a group doing say, 50 and then somebody would say "let's get going". #Next thing I knew they'd be at 75 and I'd be sweating bullets. What a great experience.
Many of the fellows exceeded the keying capacity of their transmitters and there was a big shake out of gear that wasn't up to the challenge. #Ten Tec became the transceiver of choice because of superb cw waveform and smooth QSK. #The Collins S line series was no slouch either although getting QSK was a somewhat complex proposition. #The reason I mention QSK so much is because these ops were not the type to set there sending endless one way transmissions. #Rapid fire back and forth exchanges made for stimulating conversation that became surprisingly natural and human. #For example if I asked someone what rig they were using, he would send the answer right now, in real time. #BTW for anyone interested in doing more with cw, let me suggest you use the QSK or Vox-key feature of your radio and try this approach of keeping each transmission short to increase interactivity. #It puts a whole new dynamic into the contact and can become addictive. ##
To me it's kinda humorous to read posts from people telling us what is and isn't "real" skill in the art of cw. #I never knew a high speed op who ever passed judgment on what method of sending was better or more righteous than another. #Most owned all sorts of keys, had a genuine love for code and despite the fact that they were seriously proficient didn't take themselves too seriously. #
Sorry to put so much of this in the past tense. #There are still some fabulous cw guys out there. #But the truth is most of those grand old men are no longer with us and there is a void where they once were. #The best of the best did indeed set a benchmark that greatly benefitted the rest of us who aspired to do better. #Today's benchmark is lower and I think overall cw proficiency within the amateur community reflects that. Hopefully there will always be some who want to keep clean, fast code alive. #I for one don't care how you send it, just send it!
73, Mike cfo#70
Mike, as you probably know, I am a digital guy, whole-heartedly, and absolutely LOVE to get on a keyboard and type away to someone who is equally ( or even more ! ) skilled than I ! #
I think you , and others, have hit the nail on the head, when you stress that what seems to have been lost, regardless of what mode is used, is the ability to COMMUNICATE! #That is what is so sadly lacking now days. #
Almost every weekend, the ragchewer is totally swamped out by the hundreds of operators, sending CQ TEST CQ TEST DE XXXXX #, infinity, ad nauseam ! #
UR 599 1004 QSL TNX QRZ ? # is not my, nor a lot of others, idea of a fun qso, and yet, that mode of operation seems to have become hugely, overwhelmingly popular for the vast majority of operators.
Earlier, I stated that the "true art" of CW operation was being able to send it well manually, that is with the fingers on a key paddle of some sort, and receive it accurately and meaningfully at whatever speed you were engaged in ! #
I can certainly see the use of the keyboard to enhance the operators ability to conduct or engage in a qso, but I state now, emphatically that "it don't mean a thing" if an exchange of ideas and thoughts, that is, true conversation, doesn't take place ! #
Hope to meet you on the band some day! # 73 from Jim AG3Y
Hi Jim. #I always enjoy reading your posts. #Once again you said it so well with respect to contacts, contacts everywhere but where's the communication. #Yes, I agree it is harder to find someone wanting to have an actual conversation these days. #And as N8LXR said,
operators are so uninvolved that you just know they're paying attention to something else when you're trying to talk with them. #This phenomena isn't mode dependent.
The little trick that works best for me: #when I am lucky enough to encounter a bright bulb with a sense of humor, I make every attempt to find him again thru a sked or by asking when he's active on the air. #The old cw guys I referred to in my previous post were conversationalists extraordinare and we spent hundreds of hours talking with each other over the years.
I hope to see you on the air Jim. #Let's "keyboard" to our heart's content. #Bet we could fill up a 3 hour QSO with no dead air, no repeats, no brag tape, no station id every 2 minutes.
73, Mike
K3STX
07-22-2004, 07:42 PM
OK Tim (LXR),
Now we completely disagree again.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's face it, some of our "traditions" are just plain silly and while they may have served some purpose years ago, they really don't any longer.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
There is not a single tradition that I can think of that is silly. Call me sentimental.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To me, there should be no "newbie" or OT.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What are you, a Socialist?! Of course some people are new and some have been around for a while. Are you saying that advice from your grandfather is no more important than advice your college roommate? Come on. While not UNIVERSALLY true, those with more experience are, well, more experienced and I tend to find that these guys have good ideas, not only for the present but also the future. I tend to listen to these guys for advice, in my experience they know more than me and get me going in the right direction.
But once again, this is CW, and we are all friends!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
paul
" Aww, come over here, ya big lug, and give me a big hug ! "
( The Odd Couple )
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
73 from Jim AG3Y
Back in 1955 when I went to High speed CW ops school, everything was sent off keyboard or tape. When I got into the fleet, everything sent on broadcasts was sent off keyboard or tape. When we got on real time with vibroplexes, some of the ops just didnt get it together, but for the most part very copyable. I adamantly disagree with one poster that a "Swing fist" was just a bad sending fist. I agree the quality of "fists" has gone down in recent years, and CW operators are becoming sloppy and make tons of mistakes and continue a qso without using eeeeeee. I prefer to copy in my head a good keyboard sender and find it easy to carry on a excellent qso above 30 wpm that way...I don't use a reader, I use my brain. Alot of ops use keyboards to send, and receive the ole fashioned way. When I use a bencher or vibroplex, I limit my sending speed to 22-25 wpm, and find most folks copy it just fine. Face it, cw is changing faces today with the advent of new rules (downward spiral) But, it is ham radio, and will be around forever...Bring on the keyboards, if you can copy 30 plus wpm...I welcome you...
K3STX
07-22-2004, 09:03 PM
MW,
Wow, "Skipjack". That sure brings back memories!! I haven't thought of that word in 20+ years!!
paul
K7JBQ
07-22-2004, 09:10 PM
Tim,
While I agree with the spirit of much of what you have to say, this quote of yours...
"There should one class: Amateur and nothing more." ...
is simply assinine.
Which is it you want to accomplish:
1) The elimination of any entry-level class, or
2) The elimination of any meaningful work/knowledge/expertise etc required for full amateur privileges?
In either case, why?
73,
Bill
Paul, glad the ole Skipjack rings a bell with you. #Worked a lot of guys using 'em. #Never saw one. #
73, Mike
WB2WIK
07-22-2004, 10:33 PM
Tim,
I have no objections whatever to anything anyone uses to enhance their ham radio enjoyment as long as it doesn't QRM me personally, hi!
To that end, of course I chat with guys using keyboards on CW. I'd much prefer they use a keyboard (assuming they can type!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif than send badly using some other mechanism.
As I mentioned in my "other" post (different thread), I own an MFJ Keyboard Keyer, which does *not* use a computer in any way, it's a stand-alone accessory, and found it fun to use for a few days. But like many new toys, alas, it found its way back onto a shelf in the closet, where it's been for years now, simply because I like using a paddle. I've got three Bencher paddles, one attached to each rig but all set the same way, and I just like using them. It's fun. Plus, I type enough at the office every day, so I'm pretty much "typed out" when I get home. Just like I'm pretty much "computered out" when I get home, which is why I almost never have a PC on in the shack when I'm operating, unless I'm actually using it to work a contest.
One minute after the contest's over, the computer is OFF again and stays that way until the next contest.
Sending code is fun. It's true I'm limited to maybe 45 or 50 wpm using the Bencher, and with the MFJ Keyboard, I can rip along at 100 wpm -- but who can copy 100 wpm, anyway? It's silly.
So, it's in the closet. But it doesn't take up much space, and some day if I need it, it will likely be there and still work.
WB2WIK/6
KC8QMU
07-22-2004, 10:40 PM
Let's face it, if you are on HF you had to learn CW to get there.
Some folks like the High tech way, some like the old school way. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you are enjoying whatever way you do it, successfully, then you are obviously doing it the right way for you.
Remember CW is the ORIGINAL digital! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
ka4pne
07-23-2004, 12:23 AM
I've been a CW operator since 1966 - trained by the best - the United States Navy. #Fleet broadcast back then was 20wpm (manually), and that was the absolute minimum. #Even before my Navy days I was a member of our high school Amateur Radio club. #I didn't have my license yet, but I could still copy code at almost 20 words per minute. #Back then I just couldn't imagine using a keyboard or even a code reader. #Did they make them back then? #I don't know. #Today, I can still keep up with the fastest. #However, there were times when I was in crisis situations while in the "Seabees" in Vietnam when I had to use a J-37 knee key and send code at less then 5wpm because of different circumstances so I had no choice but to slow it down and do many repeats. #In situations like those I'm sure some of my contacts would have loved to have a keyboard and/or code reader. #Now, it doesn't matter to me if you are or are not as smooth as glass with your fist. #Copying code at any speed is still the ultimate challenge and that is what makes Amateur Radio so unique. #Ever try copying code from an Op on the high seas who's roller coasting in a serious storm? #That's fun! #Yet, isn't Amateur Radio supposed to be both "fun" and "challenging"? #Those that are pro code...I salute you! #If you are anti code...well, that is your business. #Who am I to persuade you to live up to my standards? #Nevertheless, what I don't quite understand in this forum is why some are quick to #critisize another for his/her personal preference regarding the mode of delivering code; the keyboard. #It's one thing to "know" code but it's another thing to not know code. #I know of many Ops who use an "automatic" code sender for contests...such as an Autek Research Message Memory CMOS Keyer MK-1. #But, [that] is just another method or mode to enjoy the contest that much more. #It still takes a good CW Op to operate and understand CW and what he/she is doing with [it]. #Furthermore, it seems to me that if using a keyboard will make your QSO that much more pleasant for both parties...what's wrong with that? #I've never used a "keyboard" but if that is your preference and it helps you to enjoy this past time that much more...so be it. #Enjoy! #Personally, I'm just old fashioned and love my Navy issued J-37 straight key. #By the way, my J-37 was part of a package deal that came with my primary radio; the PRC-47. #I was a platoon radio operator with the "Seabees" in I-Corps Vietnam '68. #Yup, I love copying the code in my head. #I think a code reader would only distract me and remove part of the challenge that copying code brings. #I'll admit that I've even tried the use of an Iambic keyer, but I just never got use to it and have always preferred a straight key. #I just got to thinking ...what if Samuel Morse had the opportunity to read some of these posts, how do you think he would feel? #("...What hath God wrought...?") #Wouldn't that be an understatement? # # 73 #KA5PNE # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
"There is not a single tradition that I can think of that is silly. Call me sentimental."
Quote N8LXR:
To me, there should be no "newbie" or OT.
"What are you, a Socialist?! Of course some people are new and some have been around for a while. Are you saying that #advice from your grandfather is no more important than advice your college roommate? Come on. While not UNIVERSALLY true, those with more experience are, well, more experienced and I tend to find that these guys have good ideas, not only for the present but also the future. I tend to listen to these guys for advice, in my experience they know more than me and get me going in the right direction."
K3STX
HA!
I cannot win.
Since I am a Libertarian espousing a "live and let live" way of life, I am hardly a socialist yet the far right considers me a Liberal (or a socialist!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #while the far left considers me a right winger!
What I am about is (you fellow OTs better brace yourselves) FREEDOM over CONFORMITY.
But in Ham Radio, conformity is more highly esteemed than freedom, whether it's the freedom to do things differently then they were in some imagined Golden Age long past, try new things, or get things done differently than we revered and august experienced operators believe they should be.
Of course, to demand this conformity there just has to be BY GOD a social caste system remanding newcomers to some sort of lower status akin to pledges in a college fraternity with, of course, us more experienced Hams being the vanguard of all that is true and sublime as their Big Brothers (and that last term surely has a communist ring to it, methinks!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
This caste system is ostensibly based on knowledge when for the most part, it centers upon one thing: #TIME spent in the Amateur Service with scant deference to anything else.
There is no mistaking that the social side of Ham Radio has a very mean-spirited, good old boy, authoritarian streak that frankly, I detest.
And yep, it is this hyper-deference to seniority and its accompanying requirement of conformity that I regard as one of the more stupid of our pet "traditions."
Let's take two hams. #One has been licensed for 30 years and the other for 5 years.
The one licensed for 30 years is a lousy CW operator while the newcomer has really applied himself and can fly like hell at 30 WPM using a paddle.
The one licensed for 30 years has long lost his fascination with radio yet the newcomer is intrigued.
The 30 year Ham has never gotten anyone licensed and rarely gets on the air, save to meet with still more OTs on 40 CW every Thursday at noon to talk about Jack's bladder operation, who died this week, or how awful it is that only 5 WPM is required to earn a General Class ticket, #while the newcomer stays up late into the night to work DX on 160 meters using a vertical he built out of an old downspout...with five watts!
The newcomer is really interested. #He joins clubs, reads magazines about Ham Radio, and tells his friends and family all about Ham Radio while for the OT, Ham Radio is old hat.
NOW, which one of these holds elective office in the local ARC and other esteemed Amateur Radio organizations?
The OT of course. #
He often receives his place of honor at the table based solely on TIME spent in the Amateur Service with no reference to his current level of interest, skill, knowledge, or anything else aside from it.
In short, he's "been around a while" and has become an established member of the "good old boy" network.
SENIORITY by GOD is the word of the day, with CONFORMITY being nearly demanded and Ham Radio is LOADED with this BS.
OK, an isolated instance in the case of my OT mentioned above?
I don't think so. #In fact, I think it's far more common than we like to imagine.
You hear this common refrain from those of less seniority that the older and more experienced among us (often only as regards TIME spent as a Ham) #are arrogant, opposed to progress, and generally pine away for the "old days" when all was holy and orthodox in Ham Radio, while remanding newcomers to some lessor status that we OTs can have our place and time in the sun.
A social stratum to be sure, but one based on malarkey more often that not.
Personal experience with this? #You bet.
You mentioned something about the more experienced having the "good ideas." #Read on.
When I was first licensed some 21 years ago, I joined the local ARC which, to be kind, was little more than a senior and advanced middle-aged men's' coffee clutch.
I was in my early 20s and part of a group within the club made up mostly of newer hams with no more than five or maybe six years of experience each and some were freshly minted Hams too.
We were outnumbered by the OTs who always sat on the opposite side of the room when we had a meeting, often scowling at the new upstarts while being terribly concerned that we would turn the club into something more than a men's' sewing circle in essence.
Of course, the esteemed OTs holding office in the club sat at the front table, the president clutching his gavel and very, very aware of his "status."
We proposed new ideas. #(Or at least that were new to them.)
How about a trip to the Dayton Hamfest as a group? #
How about a more competitive Field Day effort? #
How about building a new repeater for the then burgeoning 440 mhz band? #
How about having a real club station instead of just a meeting room at the local library? #
How about having the club compete as a group in SweepStakes?
How about code practice on the club repeater?
How about having someone expert in Packet Radio hold a workshop and show us this (what was then) new mode promising to bring Ham Radio ever more into the computer age?
.....and many more.
The OTs would have NOTHING of it. #
Month after bloody-ever-living month, the OTs would vote us down and poo-poo any and all proposals that came to the floor except, of course, the very few and of minor consequence votes over who would bring the coffee for the next meeting or a motion to give a donation to the local Red Cross.
NO trip to Dayton. #"We're too old for that."
Packet Radio? #"It's a newfangled thing-a-ma-jig and besides, we have CW for that."
NO new repeater. #"The old one is just fine." #(It wasn't. #In fact, it sucked.)
NO more serious Field Day effort. #"We just wanna make a few contacts and besides
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #we're not contestors - contesters are awful, BY GOD."
NO, NO, NO...no nothing!
So, being the good democrats that we were with a small "d," we started our own little membership drive and got several newcomers licensed who then became voting members of the club.
And Brother, I wanna tell ya, the OTs sure as hell didn't like THAT.
It came to a head when we nominated a really nice guy, a fine Ham, and a man of truly charismatic personality to be........President!
Bobby was great. #He was really a leader and wanted to make the club into something more than a monthly men's' social circle.
In the few months before the election, however, the OTs got their heads together, to get rid of us.
One by one, members of the "upstart" group got called out onto the carpet for having violated some tenet of "club ethics."
I "used the autopatch too much," with one truly enterprising OT declaring "I have tapes!" #
(It sat there unused about 95% of the time and the Sherlock Holmes wanna-be OT never raised the issue with me when a phone call surely would have been appreciated.)
Another guy "does not use proper phonetics on the repeater."
Yet another "proposes crazy ideas." #(Yeah, like doing SOMETHING OM!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Another poor fellow "simply uses the repeater...too much, BY GOD."
Then came the thing that blew it all apart.
They censured Bobby, our candidate for President who most assuredly would have won, over some imagined violation of their rules that was not in any way the subject of any FCC violation at a meeting not announced to the general membership. #
"Bobby" did not even attend, that he might defend himself.
Lovely behavior at the hands of our esteemed, senior OTs, eh?
At the same meeting, I got yet another censure for my "overuse of the autopatch" yet I too was not at the meeting and so could not offer any words in my defense.
Bobby quit in disgust along with me and several others.
We went on to form an informal group with NO officers, NO ranks, NO constitution, and really NO rules aside from FCC regulations.
We assumed various roles revolving around whatever project was at hand.
We built the new repeater, we went to Dayton, we had great Field Days, with everyone just pitching in here and there....with NO ONE being over and ABOVE anyone else in the overall sense.
Oh, the old club?
It is now defunct and has died along with the OTs, most of whom I imagine are SK. #They still have a repeater allocation but there is nothing on that frequency in my home town, just dead air.
So that was my first experience with two of Ham Radio's great traditions: #Seniority and Conformity.
And I vow, as I now move into OT status myself (like it really means squat), that I will not be like the nasty OTs I encountered by dragging Ham Radio into still more class warfare over who has been licensed longer, who is the "real" whatever, who has rank, and all of that authoritarian blather.
No, FREEDOM to enjoy radio consistent with doing nothing to lessen the enjoyment of others so long as its legal. #
End of story. Stop. #
Nothing more...no ranks, no clubs, no high falutin' traditions hearkening back to the Golden Age that Never Was, NONE of that BS for more often than not, it only makes a "I'm better than you are" mess of the whole danged thing.
If you have a license, you're a fellow Amateur and part of our brotherhood.
Hell if you just like and are interested in radio...you are just fine with me and you'll never hear me pontificating that I am somehow better than you because I hold an Extra Class license, do a lot of CW, or adhere to the "old ways" perhaps to a greater degree than you.
To hell with tradition. #Let's get on with having fun with Ham Radio in whatever form appeals to you.
73,
Tim
N8LXR
KC8QMU
07-23-2004, 03:11 AM
ahhhhhhh. the beauty of doing your own thing on simplex and HF. (I'll leave it at that.) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
There should one class: #Amateur and nothing more." ...
is simply assinine.
Which is it you want to accomplish:
1) The elimination of any entry-level class, or
2) The elimination of any meaningful work/knowledge/expertise etc required for full amateur privileges?
In either case, why?
K7JBQ
___
LXR:
I've looked at the history of so-called incentive licensing and while I did not find any information on it prior to 1950, it's my recollection that the early days of Ham Radio up until about 1950 did not have the crazy patch quilt classes that have obtained in recent years yet, ironically, this is usually referred to as Ham Radio's "Golden Age."
In the early part of the 1950s, we had the Novice, Technician, and Extra Class licenses.
Later, the FCC split even these three into still more classes, proceeding on the argument that such would provide incentive to learn and become a more proficient Amateur.
The latter incentive licensing era nearly tore the Ham community to shreds with so many operators bitter that they had lost privileges already earned, and all of that sort of thing, and I believe that this was the "seed" setting the stage for the "us against them" culture that now besets us.
While it may have worked in 1950, it is clear to me that having a multitiered licensing structure as obtained until a few years ago (and still exists if however in abbreviated form) #did not and has not led to a more technically proficient Amateur community.
In fact, the more classes there were, the more it seemed that Hams were not delving into the technical for any number of reasons but clearly, having so many classes did nothing to make it any different.
So to me, in the end, it was so much bureaucratic nonsense.
In short, in recent years, incentive licensing is a failure in all but one regard: #It has created a multi-factioned group constantly at each others' throats in an age whereby we need to be united as never before.
You have a point about an entry level class so I will concede #that my earlier comment regarding just one class was not on target.
But in that vein, I think there should be only an entry level license and one other: #The General Amateur License with full privileges.
The test to earn an entry level license with more basic privileges would be fairly easy to earn and I would like to see some sort of recognized mentoring system sponsored by perhaps by the ARRL or some other body, perhaps a VEC-type network of Hams who have pledged to help newcomers formally.
It would encompass one of two tests: #A harder "theory only" test and an an optional second test encompassing slightly easier theory but with a practical test as well.
The practical test would proceed thus: #The mentor and the student would build a simple CW only QRP transceiver as a team, probably from a kit, and once it is working and the student has made a contact with it, the mentor signs off on a form to confirm that such occurred.
The practical test would teach the student, many of whom may have never even seen the inside of anything electronic, what a resistor is, what a diode is, what negative and positive voltages are, etc., while also introducing them to basic soldering techniques.
Of course to pass the practical test and make a contact with our student's new little rock crusher, he will have had to learn some rudimentary CW so those taking that route will have some, if however basic, knowledge of CW.
Perhaps just learning to send their callsign at bare minimum but I would bet, that with their new little rig running and on the air, that many if not most would WANT to learn the code to use it to fuller advantage, as opposed to being forced to learn the code as a condition of Amateur status generally.
The "mentor's" additional role would be simply to prepare his student for the General Amateur test, a process probably taking several months if not more in most cases.
This would accomplish several things: #First, OTs, for once, would have to do something, i.e. teach and instruct, as opposed to simply posturing, pontificating, and sniping at the newer Hams in this and so many other forums.
We'd have to put our money where our mouths are, so to speak, and in the process, we'd get to know our newly minted Hams on some personal level which should help in fostering a more cooperative overall Amateur experience.
It also would make it so that OTs would remain at least conversant in overall radio theory since having a student means knowing something yourself: #Perhaps there would be some sort of test to be "a mentor."
Also, the rather involved process of finding a mentor, getting prepared for the entry level license, working with a mentor, #and so on, would ensure a crop of truly interested recruits rather than the "memorize the test to get on the air and then drop out 6 months later" sorts that we now seem to attract.
The test, however, to earn the General Amateur license should be difficult (but not bone crushing!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif indeed and there should be no published questions, only study aids as was once the standard.
The requirements I will leave to other threads, but I think this should be the basic structure.
For those so earning it, a single General Class with all privileges will have new Hams enter as full members in our community and go a long way toward fostering the brotherhood that Ham Radio should be: #No more Tech against General, General against Extra, and all of that nonsense.
So that is where I am: #An easy test for entry and a very hard test for all privileges with no published question pool.
All the classes in world have not helped in any area save one: #They have split us up into warring factions when antenna restrictions and BPL threaten to take the whole thing the heck away from all of us and hence, divide and conquer is now what besets us.
The rancor arising therefrom reminds me of how "Nero Fiddled while Rome Burned."
73,
Tim
N8LXR
N8CPA
07-23-2004, 09:51 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KA5PNE @ July 22 2004,20:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've been a CW operator since 1966 - trained by the best - the United States Navy. #Fleet broadcast back then was 20wpm (manually), and that was the absolute minimum. #Even before my Navy days I was a member of our high school Amateur Radio club. #I didn't have my license yet, but I could still copy code at almost 20 words per minute. #Back then I just couldn't imagine using a keyboard or even a code reader. #Did they make them back then? #I don't know. #Today, I can still keep up with the fastest. #However, there were times when I was in crisis situations while in the "Seabees" in Vietnam when I had to use a J-37 knee key and send code at less then 5wpm because of different circumstances so I had no choice but to slow it down and do many repeats. #In situations like those I'm sure some of my contacts would have loved to have a keyboard and/or code reader. #Now, it doesn't matter to me if you are or are not as smooth as glass with your fist. #Copying code at any speed is still the ultimate challenge and that is what makes Amateur Radio so unique. #Ever try copying code from an Op on the high seas who's roller coasting in a serious storm? #That's fun! #Yet, isn't Amateur Radio supposed to be both "fun" and "challenging"? #Those that are pro code...I salute you! #If you are anti code...well, that is your business. #Who am I to persuade you to live up to my standards? #Nevertheless, what I don't quite understand in this forum is why some are quick to #critisize another for his/her personal preference regarding the mode of delivering code; the keyboard. #It's one thing to "know" code but it's another thing to not know code. #I know of many Ops who use an "automatic" code sender for contests...such as an Autek Research Message Memory CMOS Keyer MK-1. #But, [that] is just another method or mode to enjoy the contest that much more. #It still takes a good CW Op to operate and understand CW and what he/she is doing with [it]. #Furthermore, it seems to me that if using a keyboard will make your QSO that much more pleasant for both parties...what's wrong with that? #I've never used a "keyboard" but if that is your preference and it helps you to enjoy this past time that much more...so be it. #Enjoy! #Personally, I'm just old fashioned and love my Navy issued J-37 straight key. #By the way, my J-37 was part of a package deal that came with my primary radio; the PRC-47. #I was a platoon radio operator with the "Seabees" in I-Corps Vietnam '68. #Yup, I love copying the code in my head. #I think a code reader would only distract me and remove part of the challenge that copying code brings. #I'll admit that I've even tried the use of an Iambic keyer, but I just never got use to it and have always preferred a straight key. #I just got to thinking ...what if Samuel Morse had the opportunity to read some of these posts, how do you think he would feel? #("...What hath God wrought...?") #Wouldn't that be an understatement? # # 73 #KA5PNE # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think we can all agree on this. What God hath wrought is that after 160 years, Pounding Brass still kicks .- ... ... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
K7JBQ
07-23-2004, 04:22 PM
Tim,
You're going to find this hard to believe, but I actually (mostly) agree with you.
Aside from a few historical inaccuracies concerning license classes in the '50s (which is when I was first licensed), what you are suggesting is essentaily what we had then:
1) A "learner's permit," aka "Novice" which allowed limited HF (CW only) privileges and required your "rudimentary" knowledge of code (sending and receiving, and yes, 5wpm certainly qualifies as "rudimentary") and a simple 25 question test on theory, operating and regulations. Good for one year, non-renewable. Upgrade or out. A good idea then, a good idea now.
2) A "real license," aka "General," which granted full amateur privileges and required usable knowledge of code (sending and receiving) and a fairly stiff (it seemed really stiff to me, at age 14) exam (no published questions) that even required drawing of schematics.
I recall no "class envy" back then. Novices knew the deal, and the OTs in our local club back then indeed mentored us new kids - and celebrated our passing the General as a rite of passage. And just about all of us got intensely annoyed when "incentive licensing" came along.
Note to Glen: None of this is meant to get into code vs. no-code. Just basic history.
I think the underlying problem today is that our entry-level license in effect puts newcomers to the service "on the reservation," ie, 2m FM. And, as noted ad infinitum in other posts, that gets really boring in a short time. Getting newcomers on HF is a much better way to go, in terms of giving them a taste of the real deal and encouraging them to move up.
Final note, Tim, concerning your earlier post about your experience with your first club: IMO, you just joined a lousy club, and my congratulations on forming your own.
73,
Bill
K3STX
07-23-2004, 05:51 PM
Bill,
You are my new hero!
paul
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your reply and it's nice to know that someone agrees with something I've said!
Yes, the first club was lousy and NO we did not form "a club" in the sense of a formal organization with all the trappings of officers, by-laws, minutes, meetings, #and all that stuff, yet we were far more effective as a group organizing only loosely as the situation warranted.
Ironically, I think that the "loose" nature of our efforts was the very thing that made us effective.
Now, over the years, and while I have not been a true member of any ARC ever since, I have been around a few others from time to time on Field Day efforts, at hamfests, and so on, and I did make a donation to one local club here since I used their local repeater and they gave me a membership, but I was a "member" on paper only as I would never bother with silly 2 hour long meetings and all they entail to debate issues of minor concern about coffee, donations to charity, and all that malarkey.
Frankly, I sense the same BS I did so many years ago in my local ARC: #A kind of mean spirited, good old boy network demanding conformity with self-appointed "masters of the airwaves" keenly aware of their "status."
Now, given that my loosely knit and temporary ragtag coalition could beat the pants off the old club in any endeavor and with far less angst, and given that I still sense this tradition-stilted group of OTs in control of the formal clubs I had only passing acquaintance with, not to mention that it is surely no secret that many if not most Ham Radio clubs all over the country amount to little more than social circles with hoards of them having gone defunct in recent years, I came to this conclusion:
Formal clubs do not work, at least they don't if the object is #providing their members with an outlet for a truly involved Amateur Radio experience.
They DO however, provide a kind of "reservation," a place in the sun, that us older and more experienced OTs may have positions of respect and authority over what really amount to little more than men's' coffee clutches in the vast majority of cases.
They are more about officers, good old boys, the trappings of service awards, power struggles, and all the rest of the BS that frankly means nothing to me and I dare say, most interested Hams from the outset.
So, no more clubs for me as I cannot stomach all that pomp and circumstance and hyper-deference to authority.
I like radio and am not into coffee clutches, thanks.
73,
Tim
ae4fa
07-24-2004, 03:38 PM
Not a bad fist from the mobile today, Tim. #Was reading the mail on you for a bit on 7.034.75 - nice ragchew with AA1A.
Now, back to the chainsaw . . .
k4uug
07-24-2004, 03:54 PM
I love my MFJ 464.
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/pictures/MFJ-464.jpg
I just Relax and plug-in this MFJ Morse Code Reader with built-in Keyer at my operating station . . then watch CW turn into solid text messages as they scroll across an easy-to-read LCD display.
It makes working high speed CW a breeze -- even if you're rusty. A type-ahead buffer, message memories and adjustable speed get you ready to compete with the world's best hi-speed CW operatiors -- and they won't even know you just passed the code test!
The MFJ-464 gives you everything you need to have the Ultimate CW Station:
Sends and Reads 5-99 WPM
Automatic Speed Tracking
Large 2-line LCD shows send/receive messages
Single or Iambic paddle or computer keyboard operation
Front panel speed, volume controls
4 message memories
Type ahead buffer
Read again buffer
Adjustable Weight and Sidetone
Speaker, RFI Proof
Reader Has Auto Speed Track
MFJ AutoTrak automatically locks on, tracks, and displays CW to 99 WPM. Simply plug in your MFJ-464 to your receiver speaker until the lock LED flashes in time with the CW.
High Performance Modem
Consistently get solid copy from MFJ's high performance PLL (phase lock loop) modem. Digs out weak signals. Even tracks slightly drifting signals. Of course, nothing can clean up and copy a sloppy fist, especially weak signals with lots of QRM/QRN.
Superb built-in Keyer Features
The MFJ-464 combines the latest millennium microprocessor technology with non-volatile EEPROM memory for a full featured, low cost, high reliability design. You can send CW or load messages using a paddle, keyboard, or through your computer serial port.
Easy-to-use menus and LCD display let you set all keyer functions merely by pushing buttons. Keyer functions can also be changed from your keyboard or computer. The MFJ-464 has 4 message memories of 256 characters each. You can repeat messages continuously, insert timed pauses within messages, insert an auto-incrementing serial number, have messages call other messages or insert embedded commands to change speed, weight, etc. -- automatically.
Sinewave Sidetone . . More!
MFJ-464 supports direct keying output, Has PTT output, built-in speaker, sinewave sidetone and more! Iambic keyer with dot and dash memories: automatic, semi, or hand-key mode. Input queue lets you store multiple messagse. Auto-incrementing contest serial numbering from 001 to 9999.
Adjustable Speed 5-99 WPM
Digital linear soeed control from 5-99 WPM. Farnsworth Mode with speed adjustable from 10-99 WPM. Ultra speed sets messages up to 990 wpm. Adjustable weight 25% to 75%. Adjustable sidetone from 300 to 1000 Hz. Keying output delay up to 20 milliseconds. Pust-To-Talk (PTT) hang time to 5 seconds. Timed tune function for XMTR adjusting. Timed pauses in messages/message loop. Internal speaker with adjustable volume. Support for Qwerty & Dvorak keyboards.
Type-Ahead Buffer
190 characters type-ahead keyboard buffer with low-buffer warning. Keyboard input lets you plug in any AT keyboard. All commands, functions & memories can be done through the keyboard! Compact and handsome all-black metal cabinet measures just 6.25 x 2.5 x 6.25 inches. Uses 12 VDC or 110 VAC with MFJ-1312D,
No problems and no complaints with this little gem!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif