Commission: Fire, Police Rivalry Hurt 9/11 Rescue

[n0ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NEW YORK (Reuters) - Rivalry between New York's police and fire departments and conflicting advice from emergency teams on Sept. 11, 2001, hampered efforts to save lives as the Twin Towers collapsed in a heap of smoke, the commission investigating the attacks said on Tuesday. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> #
Rest of the Story Available on Yahoo (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040518/ts_nm/security_commission_dc)

I don't go in for those finger pointing he said/she said sessions to place blame but there is a lesson to be learned here. #United we stand, divided we fall!

How many times have you been a club environment or in a QSO with other operators where the topic comes up &quot;local police or fire just don't know what we have to offer&quot;. #If so, ask your self why?

Fact is the same rivalry between clubs or operators may have, or be contributing to issues driving barriers between folks that want to help (us) and the first responders (them -- fire, police, FEMA, red cross)

So here's the question, when Us vs Them situations are identified, what are the best to proceed? #How do we break down the barriers and let the folks that can benefit from our capabilities know

We are not the police,
We are not the fire department
Heck, we're not even first responders.

We are folks that can help keep the lines of communications open if existing phones and communications options are just not enough.......

That we are available..........when needed......when asked

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">POOR COMMUNICATIONS

The commission report said rescue efforts were also hampered by communications equipment that was damaged in the attacks or was not &quot;interoperable&quot; between departments. This meant rescue teams had little idea what was going on on other floors, in other buildings, or outside the towers.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

How can amateur radio capabilities be integrated with local first responders so we can enhance their capability without getting in the way

Job Well Done to the members of the NY Fire and Police Department for your actions during the 911 nightmare.

No matter what is said, your actions saved the lifes of many folks that day. #

In my book, you ARE will ALWAY be remembered as heros!

Being a Firefighter/First Responder, I see this quite often. Everyone wants to be in charge. On the Fire/Rescue?medical side we do it well, but law enforcement never wants to be a part of the show, or part of the incident managment system.

That said, the first thing I advise anyone interested in working with thier local agencies do is take some classes on the Incident Command System or ICS. They are offered all the time, call and ask you local agency when they are offered and how you can attend.

Untill you understand the command system, and the command structure and lines of communication they use, all the technical skills in the world are not going to help much.

Next, train with them and get to know them. Know how they operate. If they throw you a radio and ask you to relay everything they say on Med-9, know what the local channels and freqs used are. Know the local radio designators (If 801 calls you on the radio, then 1901, and someone asks you what the EM director just said, will you know which one he is?)

Also, don't show up unless your ASKED FOR. Don't take it upon yourself to show up at every incident with a bright orange vest and 6 radios when your not needed and getting in the way, or you will soon never be considered a serious asset.

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ May 18 2004,11:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are not the police,
We are not the fire department
Heck, we're not even first responders.

We are folks that can help keep the lines of communications open if existing phones and communications options are just not enough.......

That we are available..........when needed......when asked

... and I add, IF asked ...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Totally agree with KF4PEP. Holding an amateur radio license is not training of any kind for anything. It has zero standing. Often the departments would just as soon have a Joe John off the street, hand him a Fire HT and have him do a specific job. They know that is what he will do, and he will not go wandering around thinking he has been promoted to &quot;authority&quot; and now has to stick his nose into every place he can.

The quote is great and very accurate. When we get in the way, we are not an asset but a liability. Time that could be spent on doing the job, by the pros, is instead spent on watching us and trying to get us directed properly.

So along with the quote, I wish we had hams (more hams) who would keep this in mind: A ham radio license is not a license for anything else, is not automatic training in disaster work, doesn't make you an auxilliary cop, qualifies you for nothing at all except to talk on ham radio.

Good to gently and discretely let local emergency authorities know you are available, *provided* you are willing to train with them, let them be the director in the training and not go around telling them how it should be, and accept their guidance. But if you simply tell them you are a ham, and if they need you they can call on you, let's hope they never need you, not until you are formally trained in some of the disciplines needed by the pros.

Ed

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Persoanlly I know they are good at their individual job s and would rather I and others just keep on moving and get out of the way ( no rubber necking ).

If I have any thing to tell the police, I can do it 2 seperate ways:
1) phone call
2) in person
sometimes number one gets number 2 any way.

I do not need MODIFIED radios to talk on their frequencies.

You folks can do that all you want/need but leave me out of that stuff. Less to explain and you are not a suspect if some one plays music on their frequency; or jams the frequency with a stuck microphone button.

73

---ai4ep---

[ky5u]

As a recently retired FF/First Responder, long time line officer and past Fire Chief I agree with PEP too.

The incident command system began in California with the need to coordinate vast amounts of resources and agencies for woods fires. #One of the inovators was Ronnie Coleman who traveled the country in the early 70's teaching ICS (Ron was Chief in San Clemente and went on to be California State Fire Marshal). I was lucky enough to take one of his early classes.

The large ICS system used in California was tamed and brought to useful size by Chief Alan Brunicini of Pheonix. #He started the famous &quot;COPLF&quot; IC structure (Command Operations, Planning, Logistics, Finance). #In 1978, I met a young fledgeling Alan Brunicini teaching one of his first few classes outside of Arizona. #When I repeated the class in '99, I reminded him of the earlier class and we both laughed at how young we BOTH were then. My department in Louisiana started using the ICS system in late 1978. When I came to Pensacola in 1988, I started it here and it has been used ever since.

FEMA offers a FREE online Incident Command class which follows the larger California model. #If you pass the final, they send a nice certificate in the mail. #If you fancy yourself part of Amateur Emergency Services in any way, you owe it to yourself to take this course. #The web address is : http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/is195.asp #and the entire list of FEMA courses at: http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/crslist.asp

Don't be human flotsom at an emergency. #Negotiate your role through your organization and stick to your orders. #IC will show you why freelancing is not cool and I am sure others on here can tell you why not.

[w6vps]

Noteworthy postings and excahnges. I have recommended them to all those in our local ham club who are just begining to dip their toes into ECOM issues and activities.
As a a former #Jail PIO and retired Correctional Officer I was fortuante enough to have a one week training session on the role of a Info Off. within the ICS system. #I found it quite true that Law Enforcement Types have a hard time &quot;Relinquishing Control&quot; but little by little L.E.O.'s and their command staff #a coming to the realization the #ICS is the only way to go in a major incident be it large or small.
Thanks guys...good poop here. -73-

Paul W6VPS (former WA6CTR)

[k9kjm]

Best post I have seen in a long time about emergency communications by KF4PEP. I hope all go back and re read it slowly....... # ICS is very important to know.

[n0ov]

Amateur Radio clubs often like to make claims they are a &quot;full service&quot; club, stating to everyone who can here they stand ready to support the community in an emergency.

When you dig a little deeper -- often you find alot of good folks, with good intentions that have not done anything to develop those relationships or skills needed to become an effective addition to a disaster team.

Is your club full service? If so, what have you done to make the next step to ensure you are ready?

Strenghs: What has worked for you?

Weakness: What hasn't -- you know, the barriers that prevent people from taping that &quot;un-used amateur asset&quot;

Opportunity: What can be done to improve relationships, or increase knowledge in your local area?

Threat: What is the actual cost of doing nothing?

[k6pme]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG4YO @ May 18 2004,18:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't be human flotsom at an emergency. #Negotiate your role through your organization and stick to your orders. #IC will show you why freelancing is not cool and I am sure others on here can tell you why not.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
As a engine Company Officer and early IC I have to weigh in and agree. To be bluntly honest, if a ham walked up and tried to help me I MIGHT have time to even acknowledge him or her......Otherwise a ham would just be in my way and if need be I would have law escort him/her off the scene.

This may sound somewhat harsh but I have a job to do.

1) I don't know you and that makes you another person to worry about.

2) I don't know your level of training and I don't have time to find out.

3) You probably don't have any idea what I need from you.

4) Depending on the incident I might even consider you a suspect. Yes, thats right, a suspect.

While hams could be a very valuable asset they must, by the very nature of the beast, be an integral part of the system as a whole. That means training and being part of something such as RACES or ARES. Only then could a ham operator be part of the ICS.


AG4YO, I've also had classes by both Ronnie Coleman and Alan Brunicini......Enjoyed them all!
I don't know about Brunicini these days but Coleman is now running his own Fire Service consulting firm in Sacramento. He just did a major report for us on demographics and station locations. Pretty good work but would anyone expect less?

[K4JSR]

I am happy to see this discussion. It has a great deal of
merit and is needed. I too am a retired First Responder.
(Volunteer). I am now EC for my county and am actively
building an ARES system that is responsive to our Public Safety and EMA system. Our county is totally committed to
the ICS plan. It works quite well, and is efficient.
Our ARES group will be getting training from our Public Safety
officials this fall. The group is starting up from scratch as
there had been no active EC before me. I think that it comes
as a complete shock to someone not involved in handling
an incident scene to be turned away. Most people mean
well, but when you are up to your buns in fire and gore you
do not have time to deal with those well meaning folks.
I agree completely with what QQL has said.
Unfortunately most ham radio clubs do not have the dedication to undergo rigorous training required for assisting
serious emergencies in conjunction with their county/city
governments. The E-Comm courses offered by ARRL are an
excellent start, but anyone who has taken them realizes that they have had more doors opened to explore.
Great topic! Beats the heck out of politics, no-code/know code! To those of you who really want to help, find your
local EC. If there is none, volunteer and get all of the training
you can for yourself and your group. When the goo hits the
fan, your training will pull you through more than good intentions.
We need QUALITY more than QUANTITY!
73, Cal Neff K4JSR

[ky5u]

Monty,

Brunicini was still Chief in Phoenix a year ago, but I heard he was going to retire. #Thanks for the update on Chief Coleman. #I was lucky that we had an outstanding training center. #I had classes with John Rooney from LA after the PSA crash, Manny Freid retired from New York who wrote the red book on Strategy and Tactics, Clarke on Admin., Don Favreau, and others. #We had fire streams classes with the Akron and Elkhart engineers, military crash training with the Navy, civilian air crash training with folks from Denver Airport FD.

I was at the crash of PanAM 759 in New Orleans on the IC team. #727 bound for Las Vegas hit windshear on take off and crashed in a residential neighborhood. #Nobody is ever ready for the magnitude of that, but the training I had was good, I had seen Chief Rooney's pictures from the PSA crash, and we buckled up our fire coats and did our job.

I have to agree with you on &quot;help&quot;. #If I know you then I'll find a job for you. #If I don't know you, I'll point out the yellow tape and see you're safely behind it. #The point is to negotiate your role ahead of time through your club or organization. #If you live in an area protected by Volunteers, go to the station on their training night (usually Monday nights) and talk to the Fire Chief. #

There is only one rule that comes before using available resources (Amateurs) to address an emergency, and that is to ensure their safety and that of my FFs and the public. #I can think of 20 jobs Amateurs could help us with if we can get past the training and safety issue.