Talk by ARRL President

[n5zvp]

At last nights GARC* meeting, the special guest was Jim Haynie, W5JBP. He gave a very interesting talk, in which several important topics were bought up. This is from my memories of the meeting and all mistakes are do to me having slept since then.

1) Hams are getting older. Average age of US amateurs is in the 50s. If the trend continues, ham radio will be virtually dead in 2027. The future is helping newer hams be better hams. He was dismayed how little encouragement and fellowship is displayed and recruiting is done.

2) The league hired a company to do a survey of hams, a sample that include members and non-members.

3) There is a need to get entry level hams on HF and out of the 2-meter ghetto. He discussed his days as a novice.

4) The league is very active in DC fighting BPL and other causes for hams.

5) NTS is broke. Some words were mentioned about Homeland security and HF digital.

Jim also talked about his past experiences as a ham. He is a good speaker and I wish someone could have gotten a tape of the meeting.


Chris WA5TT (former N5ZVP)

*Garland Amateur Radio Club, Garland TX

[WB2RJR]

"1) Hams are getting older. Average age of US amateurs is in the 50s. If the trend continues, ham radio will be virtually dead in 2027. The future is helping newer hams be better hams. He was dismayed how little encouragement and fellowship is displayed and recruiting is done."n5zvp relating w5jbp


When I was licensed in 63 there were about 210,000 hams and the population was 193,000,000. Today the population is about 290,000,000 so there should be about 316,000 hams, but there are 680,000. In the early 60's because of the baby boom the average age of the #population was dropping. Continuing this trend showed that by 2000 most people in the US would be under the age of 5. Well guys look around, are your co-workers 3-7 years of age? Gee, I wonder is the average age of people in the US increasing? Did ARRL explain how they took into account baby boomers. Ever think that maybe it's their membership that's decreasing and not amateur radio.

680,000 hams, oh, yes, I know 675,000 of these are dead, and of the remaining 5000, 50% are inactive. Do you remember from Aminal House "super secret double probation", basically that is the same place this crap comes from, but instead of the dean's office it comes from NCI and now the ARRL.

All over this site are threads about crowded bands condx, can't have ESSB or AMers taking up valuable space, at the same time amateur radio is dead, no one on, etc. I hate to tell you this, but both of these can't be true at the same time.

"He was dismayed how little encouragement and fellowship is displayed and recruiting is done."

Yeh, I'm dismayed too, that adults act like 6 year olds, but I didn't do that, and unlike him I don't encourage or reward it. If you're an adult and have been a no-code tech for over two years, you're a loser, please just go away. If you're a kid send me an email and I'll show you how to teach things to yourself and research anything you want to know and learn it. Even if you don't stay a ham you can use this the rest of your life.

I got interested in radio when I was 10. A little while later I found out two of my older cousins(brothers) were hams. When I was 11 or 12 I asked them about how you get licensed. They told me, #"Go to the library, get a book and read about it, unless you're RETARDED." #Not being retarded, that's exactly what I did. Oh, I did forget to tell them that people like them were the whole reason amateur radio wasn't growing and people left, like someone would say today. Guess it didn't occur to me, of course if I had said that, they would have been on the floor laughing uncontrollably. I got on the air myself and have been there for 41 years.

This whole proposal is what happens when you let magazine salesmen have a say in the future of amateur radio.

Marty WB2RJR/7

[w3sy]

The point that I MOST strongly agree with is that we must get newcomers out of the 2 meter ghetto. (In da ghetoooooooo, as Elvis once said.)

When you think of ham radio, you think of working the WORLD... CW, phone, digital modes... Yo yo yo, it's all good. 2 meters has its place -- ragchew with the local yokels during commute times, that sort of thing. When Tech replaced Novice as the entry level license, I was disgusted. I knew that newbies would be trading 80, 40, and 15 CW (and all the terrific adventures that can be found there) for 2 meter repeaters. Yuck. How much challenge and adventure do you find THERE?

I know we can't bring back the "old" Novice ticket. Clearly, the whole communications culture has changed. So that's why you don't hear me griping about the proposed new "Give 'em a taste of HF" Novice ticket.

If they REALLY want to do this thing right, the Novices should have a distinctive call. Why? Back when Novices had WN calls (and KN or WV, depending on the era), part of the incentive to upgrade was to get a "real" callsign. That carrot needs to be dangled again. Also, the Novice license should be for a limited term, by the end of which the holder must upgrade. (No career Novices, please.)

If you've never been on HF, you don't know what you are missing, Newbie doodz.

Out.

[K3UD]

Marty,

Great post on the the problem of trying to relate short term trends to long term outcomes http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

While we have about 684,000 individual licensees, the real questions are how many are actually active and what is the definition of "active".
This will determine initial new activity on HF if the ARRL proposal goes into effect. There is some data that the ARRL has which shows that very large numbers of Tech and Novice licensees are not active and have not been active for long periods of time.

We are presently seeing a short term trend of static or slightly decreasing numbers (less than a percent or so each way depending on the data sample) since the beginning of the the licensing changes in 2000 which probably means we are making up for the expired license and death attrition rates.

73
George
K3UD

[WB2RJR]

"The point that I MOST strongly agree with is that we must get newcomers out of the 2 meter ghetto." W3SY

Steve,
They have had the oportunity to do that themselves since 1991. Are you making them stay there?

I was not the fool that eliminated the novice license as you know, but I agree, a beginning license, up or out!

73, Marty WB2RJR/7

[w8ob]

God all this crying about Ham radio dying. It makes me sick. Let people who stand to make money off of something in charge and watch out. Standard issue for reading some of these threads should be hip boots so you don't sink up to your rear end in all the BS. I see many no-codes who are content to lay around like fat hippos, pee and moan and want something for nothing. This has gotten way out of hand. Ham radio really needs a organization to represent it that will take the bull by the horns and do the right thing to preserve traditions.
We don't need quanity in this hobby.

[w3sy]

Hey Marty,

Har... no, I'm certainly NOT "keepin' da Tech man DOWN." But I think it's a problem if a new ham's FIRST taste of hamming is strictly on 2 meters. I believe that first impression goes a long way - for good or bad.

If it were totally up to me, I'd reinstate the CW only, 75 watt xtal control Novice, and keep code testing -- receiving AND sending. But that's a battle that can't be won. SO... you pick your battles. If they can make this proposed new Novice ticket a true ENTRY LEVEL (translation: temporary) ticket,and prevent it from being a Chicken Bander magnet, great.

W8OB, I love the traditions as much as anybody, but they are getting to be a hard sell. But I will agree that the "ham radio is dying" line was getting old 30 years ago.

If quantity were the true goal, all we'd need to do is produce a movie about a bunch of renegade TRUCKERS with ham stations in their rigs. God knows that worked for CB!! haw...

[KB9YCO]

"If you're an adult and have been a no-code tech for over two years, you're a loser, please just go away." kg0ko

If your a ham that promotes this type of attitude then you are the loser. The reason for the class system is for people to upgrade when they are ready to. You don't know all current no code techs or what their reasoning is for staying where they are. It's a moronic statement and is exactly the type of attitude that has turned many people off for a long time.
Try a little encouragement instead of your whining and crying about how you had to do it all and we have it so easy. We didn't decide what the licensing structure was going to be. We didn't change the test, nor could we demand the older and harder test to make us 'real hams' like you. We took the test to be a part of amateur radio and it's these sort of bad attitudes, that we too often hear, that causes many of us to not want to upgrade to talk to crotchety people that still will think we didn't earn it anyway. A helping, guiding attitude will get you much further than idiotic insults that aren't really representative of the majority out there in the first place.
I currently have no incentive to upgrade because I would have nowhere to run an HF system, unless mobile and I don't spend much time there. And again, that is the reason for the class system in the first place, upgrade when you're ready to. I have my whole life to think about upgrading and when I have more time I will.
While I don't agree with testing getting easier I think this type of attitude is detracting from the brotherhood of amateur radio and causing more and more divisions. In other words, you're not making things better acting that way and persecuting an entire group of people that you nothing about, you're just making things worse. When you have personally talked to every no code tech out there and found out what their reasoning is for being where they are then you may be qualified to talk, otherwise you are just talking out your a*s and showing a huge amount of bitterness to an entire group that you obviously know nothing and care nothing about.
As far as code goes, you should be much more upset about the testing getting easier and people not knowing what they should know to operate a radio than if someone knows code or not.

"I see many no-codes who are content to lay around like fat hippos, pee and moan and want something for nothing." w8ob

Maybe some, but not most. Most no code techs I know (myself included) have the same incentive to upgrade, regardless of what licensing structure changes may or may not be implemented. I don't care if I have to learn 15 wpm or 5, when I'm ready to upgrade I will. I never petitioned the ARRL to propose any of this, I didn't ask the FCC to please make it easier so I can be lazy, I just took the test available to me as did many others that were unaware (or uncaring) of your negative attitudes. I could care less one way or the other if the proposed rule changes go through, when I am ready to upgrade I will. Hopefully, you two aren't representative of the type of people I'll run into when I do upgrade, through rule changes or by taking the test. Amateur radio is supposed to be about people that share a common bond, the art radio, a love of electronics, etc. and not a pissing match of my license is bigger and badder than yours, and I know more and can go more places, or I earned it and you didn't, what a joke. Most people willing to take the time and study are people that want to be a part of it all and not people that just want long distance CB or a free handout. Share your knowledge with others, encourage them to learn more and upgrade, but please drop the attitude, it's not helping anyone or the hobby. Quite frankly is just makes you look bitter and unfriendly, not someone anyone would want to talk to, no matter what license they have. Have a nice day. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[K3STX]

Back to the issue at hand, even an unscientific survey of my QSOs have revealed that the age of most hams is above 50l. Sure there are exceptions, but I remember when I was a Novice the average age of the guys I talked to were in their teens. A very different world.

I agree with Steve that a non-renewable HF entry license will do alot to boost the number of Hams, they will get bitten by the bug, and stay on for life.

paul

[AG3Y]

Today's teens are still interested in technical things, but they find their outlet in Computers, MPEG players and Home Theater systems, right on down to game-playing machines, and cell phones with built-in cameras.

The biggest difference between today's teens, and the teens of our generation ( IHMO ! ) is that we did not have all this technology handed to us on a silver platter. If we wanted a Hi Fi at a reasonable cost, we put together a kit. If we wanted to communicate to someone in another part of the world, ( or even outside of our local telephone area ) we had to put up antennas, gather together receivers and transmitters, and build up a radio station !

Today's teenagers, for the most part, do not understand the workings of modern technology, nor are they really interested in doing so. What they want to do is chat with their friends and aquaintences in Internet Chat Rooms into the wee small hours of the night, or play with their Nintendo, or "Rip" music files to listen to on their MP3 players. In other words, they want the results of the technology, but really don't care about how that technology was achieved!

We might want to blame the teenagers themselves for being in this condition, but I believe the situation exists, largely because it would be impossible to duplicate the effort expended by major corporations to create this technology.

Let's face it, CW with a homebrew QRP rig is a real kick to certain types of people ( such as myself ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) but it is a lot different than downloading a several megabyte music file from somewhere on the other side of the earth, and playing it on your handheld state-of-the-art music machine! As the old expression goes, " Different strokes for different folks! "

So our job is to introduce today's young people to our hobby, and convince them why it IS so fascinating to us. It cannot compete directly with these other forms of technology, it must offer something unique to a certain kind of person and therefore it must stand of its own volition.

73 from Jim AG3Y

[WB2WIK]

Ya know, I'm pretty active on a bunch of bands (160m through 70cm, anyway) and I must admit the average age of the American hams I contact (and I think Canadians, also) probably is about fifty! This doesn't mean the data holds for the entire ham population, but it sure does seem to hold for those who are active and representing the hobby on the air. And I certainly agree, the average age of my on-air contacts used to be lower.

I can't blame any of this on the League, although possibly there may be a link in there, somewhere. "Incentive licensing" wasn't really League-inspired or driven, and it happened, anyway. "Novice Enhancement" which occurred in the mid-1980's didn't really help anything, far as I can tell. Doing away with the Novice license probably hasn't helped, either -- although when the Novice was changed from a one-year, non-renewable, mostly-CW, low-power, crystal-control ticket to a renewable ticket with additional privileges, the whole spirit and intent of the original Novice license disappeared.

Novices did bring in kids, and lots of them. Whether they were the first wave of baby boomers or the wave that followed 20+ years later (the Gen X wave), the Novice ticket worked and not only brought in kids, but separated those who really wanted to be hams (so they'd study and upgrade within 12 months) from those who didn't. This was a classic case of fixing something that wasn't broken. Oh well.

I continue to bring in kids, in a small way. About one per year, from the neighborhood mostly, who became interested when I gave a talk at the local middle school; or maybe became curious when biking by and staring up at my tower; or, in one case, a neighbor kid came over to complain I was messing up the sound system on his PC -- and ended up becoming interested in ham radio and earning a ticket, himself.

It only takes each of us bringing in one new ham every twenty years or so to sustain amateur radio indefinitely. Is that too much to ask?

WB2WIK/6

[W8MW]

WA5TT thanks for the info. I for one take Jim Haynie's number one point about the aging amateur population very seriously. #Being one of the old dudes let me offer a personal observation: #More than 80% of my original ham buddies are no longer involved in amateur radio. #At the same time, every one of 'em still alive still holds his call sign. #This is one reason I hesitate to refer to the FCC license database as any indication that things are fine in amateur radio.

Let's see how many of the 680,000 licensed amateurs participate in the process of license restructuring. #Does anyone think 10% of US hams will stand up and be counted? #If so, and FCC releases a NPRM for public comment, we ought to be seeing comments from 68,000 individuals. #Just a guess, but I doubt that anywhere near that many are interested enough or involved enough to care one way or the other about the future of amateur radio. #I'd like to be wrong about that.

Have we reached a point in time where overwhelming apathy best describes the majority of amateurs? #I think so. #And I think we need a major course correction. #That's why I am supporting the ARRL's proposal.

[KA7RRA]

IS amateur radio dying only in the USA?? What about Canada? Is amateur radio dying in Canada? or any place eles?or is it just the USA
Dave

KC9FAC & KB9YCO,

If you need emotional support or your hand held constantly I suggest you move back in with mommy. Me, I have better things to do with my time. I'm willing to bet neither of you was in the military, you would have had a break down in basic training.

Let's look at the world from your bitter view point and then mine and see who the grown-up is.

My neighbor Dan has an MSEE which he spent a minumum of 6 years and thousands of dollars to get. From your view point because I'm a ham interested in electronics he should spent his time teaching me everything he knows and if he doesn't that's why EE is dying and good people don't persue it.
My view point is he doesn't owe me a thing and should spend his spare time raising his family. If I want to know what he does I will enroll in a university and get an MSEE. Since this is only one of my passtimes my present knowledge in electronics consists of what I have taught myself, a 1970 course for the 1st phone from CIE(cost $425 which I had to finance), and 22 hrs of EET at a community College in 1993 for $165/credit hour. If you have some good reason why I should spend my time imparting this to you for free, don't tell it to me, go down to your local college and tell it to them and see if they let you in for free. Or are they, heaven forbid, charging for their time and knowledge.

Some years back I wanted to learn to speak spanish, the language appeals to me, and I have an interest in the culture as well. I guess if I were you I'd have latched on to some spanish speaker and like a parasite tried to make them feel guilty for not passing their language and culture on to me for free. When they didn't do as I expected I could just quote from your post, claiming THEY were bitter not me, and they are the reason people don't speak spanish. Well what I did instead was take a year of college spanish(10 hrs at $165/cr hr), and then took 200 hours of private instruction from the Berlitz school of Language at a cost of $6400.00. You know, now I can have QSOs in spanish, and I'm not the least bit bitter. Let me know when you get Berlitz to do this for you for free, because you have an interest in some language.

If anything kills amateur radio it is your attitude of someone owes me, and you better be sweet to me or I'll go back to my mommy, and then you'll see.

It is of interest that I have never, ever, seen a kid interested in amateur radio with this attitude. Just no code "adults".

Ag3Y, I believe the beginning exam should be about basic applied electronics, how the parts work and how a simple keyed oscillator works. Then with knowing code a kid could make a simple transmitter and get on the air, know somewhat what he was doing(actually use the knowledge). Do this and he will be here forever, plug & play isn't the thing that holds interest, using technology, even simple technology yourself is the real grabber. Show your kids how to make a phone with two cans and some waxed string, or simple electromagnets or motors if you don't believe me.

73 Marty WB2RJR/7

[K3STX]

I agree Marty. I actually DID make some of those tin-can phones for my kids, they LOVE it, and I then went to my daughters kindergarden and showed all the kids how to do it. The teachers loved it and the kids went wild, talking with string from 5 feet to 25 feet long. We have to figure out how to do this with Ham radio.

When I play in my shack my 7 year old often comes in to "see what I'm doing". At first I was pissed off, but then I realized what a fool I was. Now when she comes in, I turn off the heater switch on my transmitter, plug in a straight key, and she and I send "secret messages" to each other over the radio. I help translate other peoples QSOs. She thinks it's great; she's getting hooked and doesn't even know it. We should all do this (even Grandfathers!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. OUR kids can be the Hams of tomorrow.

paul

[n0ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Jan. 26 2004,15:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree Marty. I actually DID make some of those tin-can phones for my kids, they LOVE it, and I then went to my daughters kindergarden and showed all the kids how to do it. The teachers loved it and the kids went wild, talking with string from 5 feet to 25 feet long. We have to figure out how to do this with Ham radio.

When I play in my shack my 7 year old often comes in to &quot;see what I'm doing&quot;. At first I was pissed off, but then I realized what a fool I was. Now when she comes in, I turn off the heater switch on my transmitter, plug in a straight key, and she and I send &quot;secret messages&quot; to each other over the radio. I help translate other peoples QSOs. She thinks it's great; she's getting hooked and doesn't even know it. We should all do this (even Grandfathers!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. #OUR kids can be the Hams of tomorrow.

paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
How about starting with some kids and FRS radios, maybe even some of the ones with CW keys.

Get them interested in talking remotely. #Maybe try code to communicate for fun. #Then expose them to the hobby bit by bit -- longer ranges, new folks to talk too.

The ones who aren't interested will move on. #The folks who have an aptitude for science, electronics, etc may find it interesting you can bounce signals off the earths atmosphere, or talk with the space shuttle.

These are the ones who will make the jump. #These are also the young tallent who will possibily be the radio techs, tower maintainers, programers, dispatchers, etc of the future.

Growing amateurs is one thing, growing the leaders and support folks of the future is another.

Lucky for us this hobby (and service) allows us to do both.

Cheers

Dan KC0LNU

[KB9YCO]

&quot;I think we just got a pretty close to typical example, at least this is the attitude I have run into. Most have absolutely no idea of what Ham Radio is, it's back ground, it's traditions and what has made it great for all these decades nor do they care . This idea that &quot;Ill upgrade when I'm damn good and ready&quot; attitude is some thing new to the traditional Ham Radio. It would seem the new crowd does not have the &quot;fire in the belly &quot; interest some of us had.&quot; K6UEY

Apparantely you missed the point of what I was saying. Let's try again and maybe you'll get it.
I have been into radio for 21 years now, listening to amateurs, CB'ers, scanners, anything I could possibly listen to. I've known many amateurs and I am well aware of the traditions of ham radio and proud of the hobby that others have built up. The ' I'll upgrade when I'm ready' philosophy has been around for as long as I've been listening and IS the reason for the class system in the first place. I never said people shouldn't learn, shouldn't grow, or shouldn't have the 'fire in the belly' to upgrade; I said they will do it when they are ready. I for one know that I will upgrade and it won't be on yours or anyone elses schedule of when you think it is appropriate to do so. Again, the reason for the class system in the first place. Also, the reason for different priveledges for the different classes. You can delude yourself into thinking that no code techs are young punks with no clue and that don't value the traditions of ham radio, I know from experience that that is a mostly incorrect assumption. Anyone willing to take a test to get a radio license (these days a small minority of the population) and take the time to build their own equipment, or save the money to buy some, is not likely to be a person looking for a hand out or a free ride. It's just a ridiculous notion and I really wonder if any of the guys whining about this even know any no code techs on which to base this large assumption.

&quot;If you need emotional support or your hand held constantly I suggest you move back in with mommy. Me, I have better things to do with my time. I'm willing to bet neither of you was in the military, you would have had a break down in basic training.&quot; WB2RJR

Ahh, the old military hardline approach that has nothing to do with the point I was making, save your military lecture for a military topic, it doesn't apply here and just makes you look like a *&amp;@$. I never said anyone should be coddled along by someone else, the only way to truly learn something is to learn it yourself. What I did say is that negative attitudes, instead of a spirit of encouragement which is what amateurs are supposed to do and have done for years, goes a lot further than crying everytime you think the new amateurs are getting it too easy. We aren't the people that decided what the license structure should be, we just went with it to be a part of the amateur community. I guess somehow that makes us lazy, under educated, simplistic, or other such similar trash as I have seen posted about the lowly no coders. What a load of crap. Perhaps your mommy wasn't very nice to you and this is what gave you such a bitter attitude. But, seeing as I don't know you I won't assume anything in the way you are assuming you know about me or other no code techs. You don't, so don't bother pretending like you do. Generalizations are usually inaccurate and the postings by you two gentlemen are a prime example of this.

&quot;...if I were you I'd have latched on to some spanish speaker and like a parasite tried to make them feel guilty for not passing their language and culture on to me for free.&quot; WB2RJR

Again, I never said anything remotely close to this, reread the post, maybe a little slower this time if that helps you. You get a lot more bees with honey and instantly turning on someone that you know nothing about is certainly not going to serve the purpose of getting more people into the hobby or getting them to advance in the hobby. I didn't leach off anyone, or make them feel guilty for not helping me, I studied and I got my license. When I am ready to upgrade I will study again and get my license. Obviously, you guys have forgotten the reason for the class system of licensing and are just more eager to jump on anyone that didn't go through the steps you went through. I didn't say that you should spend all your time helping us 'poor unfortunate lowly no coders', but I did say that having a good attitude about new people in the hobby and encouraging them, as opposed to treating them like dirt, is a much more logical route to take. Get past your bitterness and think about it for half a second and you may yet realize that as well, hopefully.

KB9YCO,

You know why you're bitter, because you want to be accepted into a fraternity without doing what you need to to get in. The real reason you haven't upgraded(forget your self delusion and excuses) is because you can't. You would have to learn the code and you don't have the determination to do it. Instead you would rather destroy a 90 year old tradition, and then tell me you're just a ham like me. Sorry but, no dice.


&quot;I think we should decide what we want to build before we start ordering materials ......&quot; K6UEY

Orv,
This is what really needs to be done. Exactly who are we trying to attract to the service, and what's the best way to do it. We don't need to go off half cocked like this ARRL plan, especially after the mess that no code tech is. I have been checking to find an actual study about the demographics of hams and haven't found one yet. Just anecdotal stuff like we see posted here. Hardly the data I would use to make such an important decision.

Did find some interesting stuff though. This link explains that the US population has been getting older since 1990, and this will continue until about 2020. Have you heard anyone talking about the US dying? We do not know if the amateur population age distribution is the same as the general population's.

http://www.microsoft.com/enable/research/agingpop.aspx

It has also been suggested that people are getting licensed in their 40's (or relicensed after many years raising a family etc), I've noticed this but it is not scientific.

Check out this link

http://www.hamradio-online.com/1999/oct/demograf.html

It appears from this article ARRL is using their membership demographics to say there are no young people. Lots of reasons this may not be true including people don't join clubs much these days.(witness JayCees, Lions, Masons etc). Remember the Flintstones or The Honeymooners, fraternal lodges in both. Don't see that today.

Well after reading that article I came to the conclusion that it isn't amateur radio that's going to die, it's the ARRL.

Did they come to the same conclusion? You tell me, two big give aways, NCT's to general, and a no-code very easy test new class with 100kcs of phone on 80,40,15 and more on 10. And I almost forgot a NEW MENTORING Program, get those new ones into the ARRL.

Personally I don't think the Amateur Radio Service should be structured around an ARRL membership drive.

73, Marty WB2RJR/7

Some of you people need to realize we do this for fun. I am 25 years old and just got my ticket friday. I was on the air on 2 meters for the first time today. I enjoy learning about all aspect of the radio. However, I am not looking to upgrade for awhile. I am happy with 2 meters for now and frankly other things are more important then studying for the general exam. I woudl rather take my time to study for certifications for my job that will imrpove my income. The theory of &quot;upgade or get out&quot; is one of the more rediculous theorys i have heard in the constant infighting that this new operator is already getting tired of. This isnt something i do for a living its supposed to be for fun. Some of these olders guys really need to drop the attitudes there is no debating with some of you guys because you are never wrong.

This guy marty in perticular. No marty i wasn't in the military either, and no i took a bus to school i didn't have to walk both ways uphill in the snow with no shoes just to get to school. It's great that you learned spanish on your own. I learned a lot on my own as well. I bet I can do a ton of things that you can't but i am not going to sit on QRZ and brag about them.

Someday when i am ready and I am happy with my career and i have room (i live in a condo) to put up a HF setup i will. Untill then I will enjoy my technican class license, and thank god that the guys on my local repeaters are not only knowledgable but respectfull.

One last thing Marty, I earned my ticket the same way you did, by meeting the requirements put in front of me by the FCC.

[K3STX]

YCO,

I don't mean to offend you, but I still think you don't get it. The purpose of the class licensing system is NOT &quot;I will upgrade when I am good and ready&quot;. Maybe YOU think that is the purpose, but I think alot of the OTs would disagree with you.

The Novice license was a taste of Ham radio. If you were remotely interested in HF communications, you would easily pass the 13 wpm test and study the theory required to get your General. I think most people were Novices for one year or less.

The General license was the basic Ham radio license. All bands and modes. Some limitations of privileges, but for most this was all you needed.

The Technician was a General who did not pass the 13 wpm test. These guys tended to play alot in VHF and, if I remember correctly, were actually technically gifted. Hence Technicians. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was a badge of honor to be a Technician (the code kept them out of the General ranks).

Advanced and Extra: More band privileges, Advanced (if I remember correctly) actually had a harder written test, but only needed 13 wpm. Extra had everything, so the test was difficult and all-encompassing but not as tough as the Andvanced exam. The 20 wpm was the dealbreaker here.

The difference between this and what you are suggesting is that you are saying you are happy with your &quot;entry level&quot; license and will upgrade when you are good and ready. I am sure Orv and Marty will back me up: when I was a Novice the last thing I wanted to be was a Novice! I wanted to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade to get more privileges. I only upgraded to Extra when I realized the whole structure had been so ruined that even an idiot like me could do it. Back in the day, Extra class licensees were looked up to as sort of God-like figures who were at the top of the Ham radio totem pole. Now there are 40 year old punk Extras like me having to defend a system that has been in place for half a century (the class structure).

I'm certainly not calling you lazy, however defending the &quot;rights&quot; of Techs to upgrade &quot;when they are good and ready&quot; in the name of the &quot;philosophy of the class system&quot; sounds like a losing argument.

just my opinion.

paul

[K3STX]

KSO,

I was typing while you were typing!

Congratulations on your new ticket and your first QSO. But try not to be complacent with your ticket like YCO. Get into it, practice your code, and upgrade ASAP. The world of HF is an unbelievable joy. Like having kids, I do not know one person who regrets doing it.

paul

&quot;Some of you people need to realize we do this for fun. &quot;kb1kso

Mike,
Take my word for it, this was not the thing to say in a thread that Orv is taking part in. This is not the Fun Radio Service, fun is, believe it or not, a perk resulting from what we are actually doing. Read Part 97.

&quot;The world of HF is an unbelievable joy. Like having kids, I do not know one person who regrets doing it.&quot; K3STX

Truer words were never spoken. KSO since doing anything is better than watching TV, why not take that time and use it to upgrade. Also don't come on these sites unless you have all your other stuff taken care of. They tend to be a waste of time that could be spent more productively. Good luck on your career, and after you have worked, and busted your ass all those years to get ahead, to have house etc. and you are 54 like me, remember this conversation. I think you will see it in a slightly different light.

73, Marty WB2RJR/7

[kc7jty]

News Flash! Ham radio gets new entry license with HF privs without the need for Morse code knowledge.........a couple years go by.........the relatively low numbers who entered this new class are not upgrading and are becoming inactive. Contacts made on the bands they are allocated sound strikingly similar to the 2 meter band.
You'll have another class of ham to piss on in addition to the adult 2 meter bums who won't upgrade (pass a Morse test to please you)......KMA big boys!
What part of you will tingle then mom? Hannibal Lecter

[kb9lor]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB9YCO @ Jan. 27 2004,10:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">&quot;If you're an adult and have been a no-code tech for over two years, you're a loser, please just go away.&quot; kg0ko

If your a ham that promotes this type of attitude then you are the loser. The reason for the class system is for people to upgrade when they are ready to. You don't know all current no code techs or what their reasoning is for staying where they are. It's a moronic statement and is exactly the type of attitude that has turned many people off for a long time.
Try a little encouragement instead of your whining and crying about how you had to do it all and we have it so easy. We didn't decide what the licensing structure was going to be. We didn't change the test, nor could we demand the older and harder test to make us 'real hams' like you. We took the test to be a part of amateur radio and it's these sort of bad attitudes, that we too often hear, that causes many of us to not want to upgrade to talk to crotchety people that still will think we didn't earn it anyway. A helping, guiding attitude will get you much further than idiotic insults that aren't really representative of the majority out there in the first place.
I currently have no incentive to upgrade because I would have nowhere to run an HF system, unless mobile and I don't spend much time there. And again, that is the reason for the class system in the first place, upgrade when you're ready to. I have my whole life to think about upgrading and when I have more time I will.
While I don't agree with testing getting easier I think this type of attitude is detracting from the brotherhood of amateur radio and causing more and more divisions. In other words, you're not making things better acting that way and persecuting an entire group of people that you nothing about, you're just making things worse. When you have personally talked to every no code tech out there and found out what their reasoning is for being where they are then you may be qualified to talk, otherwise you are just talking out your a*s and showing a huge amount of bitterness to an entire group that you obviously know nothing and care nothing about.
As far as code goes, you should be much more upset about the testing getting easier and people not knowing what they should know to operate a radio than if someone knows code or not.

&quot;I see many no-codes who are content to lay around like fat hippos, pee and moan and want something for nothing.&quot; w8ob

Maybe some, but not most. Most no code techs I know (myself included) have the same incentive to upgrade, regardless of what licensing structure changes may or may not be implemented. I don't care if I have to learn 15 wpm or 5, when I'm ready to upgrade I will. I never petitioned the ARRL to propose any of this, I didn't ask the FCC to please make it easier so I can be lazy, I just took the test available to me as did many others that were unaware (or uncaring) of your negative attitudes. I could care less one way or the other if the proposed rule changes go through, when I am ready to upgrade I will. Hopefully, you two aren't representative of the type of people I'll run into when I do upgrade, through rule changes or by taking the test. Amateur radio is supposed to be about people that share a common bond, the art radio, a love of electronics, etc. and not a pissing match of my license is bigger and badder than yours, and I know more and can go more places, or I earned it and you didn't, what a joke. Most people willing to take the time and study are people that want to be a part of it all and not people that just want long distance CB or a free handout. Share your knowledge with others, encourage them to learn more and upgrade, but please drop the attitude, it's not helping anyone or the hobby. Quite frankly is just makes you look bitter and unfriendly, not someone anyone would want to talk to, no matter what license they have. Have a nice day. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
kb9yco, my sentiments exactly!


Cheers!

[K3STX]

Orv,

I started the &quot;This Bud's for Marty&quot; thing a couple of hours ago. I'm sitting here shivering with 6 inches of snow, a coating of ice, 20 degrees F, a wife out of town, and two screaming litttle kids who won't go to bed. You are way, way behind!

JTY: You are as wrong as wrong could be. There will be a flood of new licensees. While I think this new Novice license is a cave-in to the no-code cry-babies, I honestly think it will rejuvinate the hobby. If someone can't get excited about calling CQ on 15 meters and having Frank in Namibia answer with a strong signal, then Ham radio really might be dead. I know there are exceptions (80 meters), but I think there is a sense of tradition and values that, for the most part, keep HF a noble place in the radio spectrum. I can not imagine the new Novices pooping in their own beds. When we were Novices we did not do it, why do you think the new Novices would be any different? Everyone makes mistakes on HF, and I suspect all of us have been publicly scolded for it. It's not the kind of thing people want repeated; I think the new guys will get it quickly. There will be HF mentors to show the rules of the road, just as there has always been.

paul

[K9STH]

UEY:

Remember, the &quot;correct&quot; rated &quot;G&quot; term is &quot;educated donkey&quot;!

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[K3STX]

GSO2

paul

[kc7jty]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Jan. 27 2004,18:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">JTY: You are as wrong as wrong could be. There will be a flood of new licensees. While I think this new Novice license is a cave-in to the no-code cry-babies, I honestly think it will rejuvinate the hobby. If someone can't get excited about calling CQ on 15 meters and having Frank in Namibia answer with a strong signal, then Ham radio really might be dead. I know there are exceptions (80 meters), but I think there is a sense of tradition and values that, for the most part, keep HF a noble place in the radio spectrum. I can not imagine the new Novices pooping in their own beds. When we were Novices we did not do it, why do you think the new Novices would be any different? Everyone makes mistakes on HF, and I suspect all of us have been publicly scolded for it. It's not the kind of thing people want repeated; I think the new guys will get it quickly. There will be HF mentors to show the rules of the road, just as there has always been.

paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It will cut into the time they spend on the internet communicating and talking, including slow scan visual, with friends all over the world, some of whom they have visited and hosted already.
Look at the music scene today. I don't understand why more of the new generation aren't rediscovering the (great to me) music of the late 60s and 70s. Instead they are listening to rap and this other stuff that is so bad I would use it as torture to get info out of the &quot;terrorists&quot;. The generation gap is just as wide today as it was when we were kids.

[K3STX]

Actually, I think our military DID blast the music of today in Iraq to get someone to cry Uncle, I forget why. But kids today ARE actually starting to listen to old Hippie music. A lot of the music my 7 year old listens to (groups called Myra, Play) are actually pretty good, which is pretty high praise coming from a hard-core Dead-Head like me! Of course, she already knows the Dead, Allman Brothers, and the Doors. Just like getting them into Ham radio, we have to get them into good music at an early age.

paul

stx:

I have no doubt especially after the reading I have done that HF is a lot of fun. However, living in a condo with no place to mount an antenna is certainly a problem. I am sure when I get a house i will take the test and get a nice HF rig. Right now i can't use it, and i don't the the time for it. My point is, is there are a lot of tech out there and happy with their privledges or not grouping them all into a catagory of lazy and lacking &quot;the fire in the belly&quot; is a gross generalization that simply isn't true. There are a lot of reasons why people do and don't upgrade when they do.

The snow is heading my way too. I hope it's not to bad, i am already sick of the snow and we barly got any this year. Stay warm and i hope to hear you on the air sometime.


Marty,

In all seriousness, you need to get laid. It's that simple. Loosen up a bit and enjoy life. From the way you speak and the way you act you clearly lack some self esteem and you clearly havn't enjoyed life. I appreciate getting grouped into the &quot;tv is rotting my brain&quot; group. However, i opted not to get cable when i bought this place because i never watch it. I know next you will say i spend all my time on the net. Well your right, i have to it's my job i am an internet security analyst. Just figured i would answer that before you went there and accused me of wasting my time on the net.

[K3STX]

KSO,

Ahhhh, you're gonna have to do better than &quot;I live in a condo and can't do HF.&quot; WALT, WHERE ARE YOU ?? W5ALT is living in a condo/apartment and his antenna is a small vertical about 5 feet tall firmly planted in the corner of one of his rooms. He has worked over 100 countries on this arrangement and does not have any RFI problems at all.

What you have is a challenge. GREAT!!! That is the fun of the hobby, overcome this challenge and I guarantee you will be very very pleased with yourself. Then on to the next challenge!!

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but trying to inspire you. Hell, 25 years old with no mortgage and a Ham radio license. I should be so lucky! If I were you I would somehow get onto the roof/into the attic of that condo and lay down a mile of wire just waiting for the day that General class ticket arrives (oh yeah, its instantaneous now. Remember the wait?!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

go for it man, do it do it do it.

paul

&quot;In all seriousness, you need to get laid. It's that simple. Loosen up a bit and enjoy life. From the way you speak and the way you act you clearly lack some self esteem and you clearly havn't enjoyed life. I appreciate getting grouped into the &quot;tv is rotting my brain&quot; group. However, i opted not to get cable when i bought this place because i never watch it. I know next you will say i spend all my time on the net. Well your right, i have to it's my job i am an internet security analyst. Just figured i would answer that before you went there and accused me of wasting my time on the net.&quot; kb1kso

Mike,
What is this? The wisdom of youth. Self esteem, I know what that is. It's when you have a 25 year old who doesn't know much, can't do much, doesn't realize it, and feels good about himself. I read an article about this. U.S. high school students are doing very poorly in math, behind lots of third world countries, but they came in No.1 for feeling good about their abilities and knowledge of math. I wonder who do you think has the problem, the foriegn students who realize they have a lot to learn, or the Americans who think everything is swell. Think about that, your job will probably be outsourced to India where people actually know what they 're doing.

You're right, I don't enjoy life enough. For instance this last summer I only took off for 3 months with the xyl and my son, fossil and mineral collecting in the Black Hills and the Badlands, fishing and conoeing in northern Wisc. and Ontario, and ended up visiting my brother in upstate NY. He entered me in a fishing contest. Can you believe it, with 7 minutes to go I got a 33 3/4 inch Northern Pike and won. First fishing contest I was ever in. Maybe I should retire, but I really love the oil and gas business. I hope you enjoyed your summer too and didn't spend it all in some office cubicle, staring at a CRT and typing.

BTW the first person personal pronoun &quot;I&quot; is always capitalized, unless you're trying to tell us something about your self esteem.

About the only thing that annoys me in life is coming on here and reading the Gimmi-tech posts, but that is balanced by the posts of Orv, STX, FA, ALT and plenty of others.

You have a good day.

Marty WB2RJR/7

[K9STH]

KSO:

Since you are very new to this site I'll excuse your comment that was sexually orientated.

However, although not that bad, we do try to keep things more in the &quot;G&quot; side of &quot;PG&quot; than the &quot;R&quot; side.

The three main &quot;rules of the road&quot; here on QRZ.com are no profanity, no obscenities, and no personal attacks. For some reason, the acronym &quot;no-POP&quot; just &quot;hit&quot; me! Anyway, discussion in the Talk &amp; Opinions forum does &quot;stray&quot; from the more &quot;mundane&quot; amateur radio topics. Also, I tend to be more &quot;forgiving&quot; of the content of the posts on this particular forum as well. But, I can come down hard when necessary and I definitely haven't come down hard on you!

Anyway, just a friendly caution not only to you but to several others who sometimes push the envelope and I have to slap them down a lot harder!

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

stx,

I truly wish i didn't have a mortgage but i do. I havn't looking into HF antennas for more then a passing few minutes out of curiosity, i would be interesting if you could get walt to send me a pm with info on that antenna would be appreciated.

Sth:

My apologies.

orv, and marty,

You guys are right. I now understand that i can't be a complete person unless i have my amateur extra license and know morse code. Thank you for helping me understand that. My life was headed no where before your wisdom guided me back on the right path.

[N0ZB]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG3Y @ Jan. 27 2004,13:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's face it, CW with a homebrew QRP rig is a real kick to certain types of people ( such as myself ! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #) but it is a lot different than downloading a several megabyte music file from somewhere on the other side of the earth, and playing it on your handheld state-of-the-art music machine! # As the old expression goes, &quot; Different strokes for different folks! &quot;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Consumerism is killing music too. In the 60s and 70s you didn't sit around watching MTV or fiddling with your I-Pod, you went down in the basement, out in the garage or wherever you could stave off the normals and started a band. Didn't matter if you could play or not, you could learn. Besides, those rinky-dink little portable record players wouldn't get LOUD enough.

If you think TVI will stress out the neighbors, plug a Les Paul into an old 4 EL-34 Sunn bass head and bounce some antique porcelin clowns off the shelf!

DE N0FAA
still like it loud, still pass my hearing test and still looking for those microphonic tubes that are &quot;just right&quot;

[K3STX]

KSO,

Walt W5ALT has it described on his web-site
W5ALT Antenna stuff (http://www.comportco.com/~wfair/index.html)

He has lots of real interesting information there too!!

paul

[WA2ZDY]

Ya know, there's a lot of deli disease going around. #Lots of folks are full of baloney.

I got my Extra at 16. #I ate, slept, LIVED ham radio. #(Well, I took enough time out to get into some &quot;trouble&quot; too, but . . . ) #Code was no problem, I enjoyed it then as I enjoy it now. #But that was MY choice.

If these folks are happy being no-code techs on the repeaters, that's fine. #Nobody should be judging them for that. #Personally I think that's sad, but if it works for them, fine. #Ham radio is many things to many people. #That's a good thing about ham radio. #There's something for everyone.

Why do I find it sad though? #Well, I think a lot of new hams, particularly the no-code techs haven't been exposed enough to other things. #They are happy on the repeaters because that's all they know. #They aren't interested in the code because they don't see the need. #And if they don't want to upgrade, there is in fact no need. #

We older hams learned the code because we had to. #I don't think too many of us were introduced to ham radio and said &quot;wow, code? #I can't wait. #Teach it to me. #Heck, remove my vocal cords, I never want to talk again!&quot; #For a good chunk of us, we learned to enjoy it. #We got unexpectedly hooked. #But I rest assured, most of you, like me, couldn't wait to upgrade to General to get on phone. #

I was a Novice for 11 months because at age 13, my mother wouldn't let me take the train to New York City to take the General. #In that time I had no choice but to work CW or stay off the air. #Like I said above, it sunk in, became fun and I've loved it since. #Then as a new General, there was no money in my family for phone equipment, so I stayed on CW.

Today's new hams do not face that &quot;need.&quot; #They simply do not have to learn the code and let's be real. #Who among us takes on things we think will be onerus just for the heck of it? #Not most. #

So don't look down on them. #Feel bad that they have no incentive to learn things they see no need for, and more than that, nobody to show them the way anyway. #

It's a matter of choice. #Given the choice, I think many of us would have made the same no-code choice. #I'm just thankful that easy way out wasn't available to me at 13.

[n5zvp]

I have a extra ticket and the only time I go on HF is on Field Day or while at another's station. I do spend time listening to HF or SW or the scanner.

Why? It's not that high of a priority. I originally got the license to help out with public service and the other events that clubs do around here. I'm also interested in the technology of radio, it helps me in my job to explained to the RF-clueless why wireless networks with financial and private data is not always a bright idea.

The highest priority I have now is restoring my health after 15 years of slack-a-tude. I had become the stereo-typical grossly overweight ham that people like to bitch about. So I am in the gym six days out of the week hitting the treadmill and the weights.

I used to spend more time on the radio when I would sit at a desk programming all day or working the night shift in the fab. Radio provided a human contact. Now I spend 7 to 8 hours a day talking to clients on the phone, in my spare time I need the quiet. A lot of &quot;spare&quot; time is spent keeping current with my job and career or spent with the family.

Eventually I will fire up the soldering iron and build some more gear. I want to build a portable PSK-31 station to take along when I go backpacking. But I do think I would have done more HF and been more dedicated to radio had a better novice program and a few more elemers been around when I got started.

Chris WA5TT (N5ZVP)

[N8YV]

One of the interesting points I often find, when conversing with long-term HT squeezers that seem stuck on VHF, is that very few own (or have ever used) a worldband receiver.

On the other hand, I've found that hams who have been ordained in SWL, especially using receivers equipped with SSB capabilities, seem to get ahead in Amateur Radio much farther and faster than most quagmired techs.

I would recommend a good portable SWL rig for ANY Technician, whether newbies or those stuck in the &quot;repeater rut&quot;. There's nothing like SWL to whet one's appetite for learning the material and advancing beyond the HT barrier.

In my opinion, there is no better preparation (other than direct elmering) for HF, than learning signal propagation, operating basics, and tracking down a choice DX station on a receiver. Many old-timers I've had the pleasure of meeting, still pursue SWL &quot;on the side&quot;.

There are those, however, that may well remain stuck on VHF/UHF, even after any proposed codeless HF (if it happens) licensing becomes available.

To each, his own.

[N8CPA]

Very good point, YV. The first step on the last leg of my becoming a Novice was the purchase of a shortwave receiver. It was a cheap but effective DX-160, purchased at Radio Shack. Very broad bandpass! I used TV rabbit ears for an antenna. But I started monitoring W1AW to learn the code, at the same time learning how to use a BFO to make the desired signal the most noticeable pitch among the dozens that were audible. At the time I bought it, I had no idea there was a ham club where I worked. They saw to it that I learned right!

Twenty-six years later, I can't believe how I crabbed that it couldn't receive the local repeaters. And I only waited 6 months to upgrade to General, one of the happiest days of my life at the time. AHHHHH--memories!

Steve

[ac3p]

n0faa

Re: music

Do you know about this website: www.myfirstband.com

It documents what many of us wannabes were doing.

A the time I was still an (I'm gonna upgrade someday) Technician.

It wasn't until the FCC gave me a kick-in-the-pants motivation that I actually did.

73

Frank

[KI4BOO]

This topic reminds me of a conversation I heard two old crotchety Extra class hams having on a repeater in Tampa, Florida during a band opening.

Yes, On a repeater, and on 2 Meters.

They went on for about 25 minutes about how the new licensees are lazy, and dont know anything about the hobby, and cant use code, and cant use HF, and cant tell the value of a resistor from the value of a capacitor, and cant [insert activity here].

By the way, neither one of them ID'd during this 25 minute LID bashing...

Well, they both finaled and said they would be listening, I keyed the radio and spoke my call, wishing to talk to them. I made it into the repeater, I know, because I heard the courtesy tone.

Neither one of them answered me. A KI4 callsign? &quot;Oh no, A Tech heard us!&quot; I came within a hair of telling them to take their &quot;QSO&quot; up to 40 CW so us &quot;No-Code&quot; Techs wont have to listen to, or be able to even copy their complaining (since we dont know code...) But I didnt, because I figured it wasn't my place.

People like THAT peeve me. Suppose I wanted to ask one of those guys a question about a circuit, or an antenna? Would they help me, or tell me to go and study and stop asking &quot;stupid questions?&quot;

[K2ACX]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K6UEY @ Jan. 27 2004,14:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This idea that &quot;Ill upgrade when I'm damn good and ready&quot; attitude is some thing new to the traditional Ham Radio. It would seem the new crowd does not have the &quot;fire in the belly &quot; interest some of us had.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So when can we look forward to hearing you and 'RJR on the Extra-class subbands?

Whoa, wait, hold on... I hope you're not satisfied with your current privileges. And you damn well better not tell me you have other priorities at this point in your life. I ain't hearin' it!

Brian K2ACX

[K0RGR]

Once again, no arguments are going to sway any of the stalwarts in this battle.

On the one hand, we have the &quot;self-made&quot; men. These folks like to worship their &quot;maker&quot;, and insist that we all follow the path of true enlightenment, whatever they perceive it to be. These folks are supported by the perpetually abused, who feel that no matter what, they will be the losers if there is any change.

On the other side, we have the 'progressives'. These consist of a few hedonists who have no regard for tradition, and a lot of pragmatists who see abandoning tradition as an acceptable way of advancing their cause, which they truly believe will better their lot, right or wrong.

Stuck in the middle are the silent majority, who simply say &quot;can't we all just get along?&quot;.

At this point, there is clear concensus: in some form, the current Technicians should have HF priveleges. All of the other points are less clear. #FCC has stated repeatedly that they are waiting for us to reach a conscensus. I think we're well on the way.

I've been very busy the last month trying to find 10 students for an upcoming Technician class. Last year, we determined that at the present rate of decline, membership in our local radio club will approach zero in less than a decade. We need 20 newbies a year to replace those who die, move, or give up the hobby (mostly bored Technicians).

This is also coupled with recent difficulties in providing enough trained bodies to support our ARES commitments - a very bad situation.

We've had a big article in the newspaper, all the schools in the area have made announcements and posted items on bulletin boards. The Boy Scouts, and the two biggest employers in the area have posted the information. We've got flyers and posters at both of our Radio Shack stores. We've emailed all the hams in the county. So far, we have only 5 students - really not enough to run the class.

Clearly, either people have no idea what Ham Radio is, or there just isn't much interest. We could be giving away Extra licenses on the streetcorners, and I'd wager extremely few would bother to take them. We need to do lots more than just changing the license structure if we're going to attract and retain good people.

I think the current proposal(s) requesting HF priveleges for Techs can help us to keep the people we have, and maybe bring back some of the many thousands who we've lost. Locally, we seem to retain 1-2 out of every batch of 9-10. But it won't bring in hordes of new people - it just won't happen. #It won't bring back those who used two meters as a cellphone replacement, either. But the ones who were truly interested and just never found anybody to talk to on two meters will be candidates for re-entry. If we can't get new people, we better work a lot harder to keep the ones we get!

[ky5u]

The median age in the US is nearing 45 and coould be as high as 50 by 2010. #What is wrong with a hobby for the older half of the population??

IMHO, if we continue down the line of thinking the &quot;younger generation&quot; will be the salvation of the hobby, it will indeed die. I am not suggesting we stop recruiting young people. #What I am suggesting is the effort spent trying to make the hobby appeal more to the younger generation may be wasted time. Why?

Because to make the hobby more appealing to the younger generation we would have to address bandwidth issues on HF which would result in the &quot;absolute&quot; state of removing SSB and CW completely. #Would we be willing to make changes that would kill interest for the hobby constituency, to gain a dubious amount of new younger hams?

Even if the answer is yes, there are methods of delivery that do a better job with these popular modes such as video, internet access, than Ham Radio can. #We would simply be a competing hobby with other delivery mechanisms for the same services, and the other folks could do it better.

The mainstream young people I know have communications patterns that may not be compatable with Amateur radio. #Their social skills and abilities are more alligned with Cell Phones than a conversational service such as Ham Radio. This is not intended as disrespect. Listen to young people yourself.

There are frequencies available to no code technicians today with the bandwidth to experiment in these &quot;modern modes&quot;. #Why are we not doing it? #Why not set up these &quot;modern&quot; modes on 1 or 2 GHZ today? #If we have the systems, it would be easier to attract the people interested in them. #Our attempt to attract younger hams is alot like being invited to dinner and finding out you're supposed to cook it. #We want the young folks to come in and transform the hobby into something they're interested in.

My point is that the hobby is far from dead as it is. #We should still recruit young people, but we should also recruit from the age group most of us fall into. #Mostly, we sould work to provide activities for the license class we seem to be losing the most, no code techs.

I respect Jim Haynie alot, and am supprised at the &quot;ghetto&quot; comment. #My prediction is that we may see a small influx by the ARRL proposal, but we'll still be having this discussion in 10 years if we don't ACCEPT that we a re a hobby for older folks and stop being ashamed of that. #Jim and the League has mostly unused frequencies at 1.2 and 2GHZ with which to build the Ham Radio of tomorrow, if that is their vision. #Build what you propose there Jim, and we'll have a working example (or not) of whether we should scrap the reast of the hobby.

As far as a &quot;ghetto&quot;, the 2m repeaters offer a unique opportunity for all Amateurs. #Every town has several active Hams. #How many stay in touch locally? #2m offers the chance for local hams to communicate, meet, and share info with younger or newer hams. #Ironically, the ARRL proposal could make 2m a ghost town ripe for picking by BPL type interests.

[KB9YCO]

“First of all we don't need more people in the HOBBY/Service we have more than enough now .It will take years to overcome their bad attitude and bad habits to make half Vast Hams out of them, who can contribute to the Fraternity as a whole and not be in Amateur radio for just their personal gains.” K6UEY

Completely inaccurate, look at the statistics, the numbers have been dwindling for a long time and it is this bad attitude that helps it continue to dwindle. You think the majority of hams are bad out there? Well that says something about the people you must come into contact with or how you perceive others. That’s just spooky, and sad. Change is constant and if amateur radio doesn’t keep up it will keep on dying.

“You know why you're bitter, because you want to be accepted into a fraternity without doing what you need to to get in. The real reason you haven't upgraded(forget your self delusion and excuses) is because you can't. You would have to learn the code and you don't have the determination to do it. Instead you would rather destroy a 90 year old tradition, and then tell me you're just a ham like me. Sorry but, no dice.”

First you pretend to know what all no code techs think, then you pretend to know what I think or know. Your bitterness has been shining through and the more you post the more obvious it is you are afraid and un-accepting of the changes coming in the hobby. Time for a wake up call, get over your obvious delusions, self righteousness, and presumptuous attitude and maybe someone will be interested in what you have to say. Also, I am about the least bitter person you will ever know, but it is hard to be nice in the face of insulting, arrogant people.
Now you seem to know why I haven’t upgraded and why, and you know what my level of determination is; I guess you know what my intentions are too. You are making a number of assumptions that you obviously know nothing about and just want to play the personal attack game instead of the issue at hand. That was a sad and pathetic attempt, but nice try anyway. The more you babble the more you just make yourself look like bitter, tired and afraid of anything new or different; sad, keep up the good work.
You think learning code should be the number one hindrance to upgrading? How about the level of testing being appropriate as opposed to one mode versus another? I never asked for a hand out or a free ride and I don’t even completely agree with the new ARRL proposal. If you were really concerned with the tradition of amateur radio you would be much more worried about the test reflecting the amount of knowledge you need for the level of privileges. It’s your backwards attitude that is destroying amateur radio. It is this mentality of condescension towards anyone that didn’t take the same steps you took that is ruining amateur radio. It is people like you that have nothing nice to say (and keep on saying it) and an obvious problem with social interaction that is ruining amateur radio. Blame it on the lowly no coders all you want, but it is obvious where the problems lie. #The FCC says I am a ‘real ham’ but I guess that doesn’t mean anything to you either.

“YCO,

I don't mean to offend you, but I still think you don't get it. The purpose of the class licensing system is NOT &quot;I will upgrade when I am good and ready&quot;. Maybe YOU think that is the purpose, but I think alot of the OTs would disagree with you… The difference between this and what you are suggesting is that you are saying you are happy with your &quot;entry level&quot; license and will upgrade when you are good and ready.” K3STX

Nothing anyone says offends me; unlike many people online, or on radio, I take it all with a grain of salt and can take criticism without getting personal. A good debater can do that; some people are just too pent up to refrain from childish name-calling (not you in particular).
I first refer you to the comments from KB1KSO. He says ‘when he’s ready’ and that is the point. Not everyone has the availability of a place for HF. There is no time limit on how long I can hold my tech license; I have no current need to upgrade because I wouldn’t be able to use it anyway. I guess I should be on the same schedule as you guys because life is really that black and white; please, give us a break with that giant load of crap. I don’t recall I saying I didn’t want to upgrade, I do want to upgrade but it will be when I am ready to and when it makes sense to. How can anyone not figure that out?

”I earned my ticket the same way you did, by meeting the requirements put in front of me by the FCC.” KB1KSO

For some people that’s not good enough. I’ve posted this a dozen or more times now but I have to ask again. What are we supposed to do when we go take the test? Are we supposed to demand the old version so we can be so called ‘real hams’? What a ridiculous notion, and really a reflection of the fears, the OT’s you refer to Paul, have with the constantly evolving amateur hobby.

“But try not to be complacent with your ticket like YCO. Get into it, practice your code, and upgrade ASAP. The world of HF is an unbelievable joy.” K3STX

If you actually read his post you would see that he said the same thing I said, when the time is right he will upgrade. Does that make him complacent too because he doesn’t have a place to use HF, or a current need for it? When the time is right he will do it, when the time is right I will do it. That time is on our shoulders, is our responsibility, and shouldn’t be dictated by you or anyone else.

“If these folks are happy being no-code techs on the repeaters, that's fine… So don't look down on them. #Feel bad that they have no incentive to learn things they see no need for, and more than that, nobody to show them the way anyway. #
” WA2ZDY

I never said, nor did KB1KSO, that I didn’t want to, or had no incentive to upgrade. Anyone that gets an amateur license wants to eventually go to the highest possible level, but that doesn’t mean it needs to be right now. #When I am ready I will upgrade regardless of whether there’s a CW requirement or not, none of it is that difficult that any ‘lowly no coder’ should be intimidated by it.
You’re right I am happy on 2 meters, 6 meters for a taste of HF, and everywhere else that I am licensed for. It’s a great time, lots of good people out there, lots of wisdom shared amongst others, and usually an encouraging attitude. That is what it’s supposed to be about and the person that said it shouldn’t be fun is seriously lacking in a big part of the hobby, HAVING FUN. If it were boring technical talk all the time even more people would be turned off than already are by the elitist attitudes I see posted here time and time again.

“One of the interesting points I often find, when conversing with long-term HT squeezers that seem stuck on VHF, is that very few own (or have ever used) a worldband receiver.” N8YV

I couldn’t agree more, I have been a shortwave listener, an AM radio listener (miss those clear channel days), since I was a young kid and it certainly makes me want to get there eventually, and I will when the time is right and not when someone else tells me I should. #I embrace the entire radio spectrum and anyone that doesn’t is missing out on an entire amazing world out there.
As far as this debate goes (and my overly long reply, I’m done), I am sure we could go around and around in circles for years. I only hope that regardless of what changes happen in license or band structuring the OT’s will continue, in the spirit of amateur radio, to be friendly, helpful, and accepting of new people coming into the hobby, coming into new bands (by restructuring or testing) and celebrate the brotherhood of amateur radio, instead of the poor examples posted here. The personal insults have gotten way out of hand and do not serve the greater cause. Most replies to my posts were answered with almost nothing but insults, condescension, and arrogance, and that is sad. You can debate without resorting to this kind of conduct. #Have a nice day.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[w8ob]

Get off the kick the numbers are dwindling. Look at the stats more hams now than ever before. The Hobby is far from dying or even getting weak. You no-codes who have been brainwashed by the NCI should wake up and smell the coffee. I guess all us old farts have to grab up all the NCI members take them in a small room with a bright light, and de-wash them, Like what has to be done when regaining back a family member who has been in a cult somewhere. You guys have not given one iota of a good reason for any of your ham radio dying statements or any of the other remarks read on here. you simply have been rendering repeats of the pathetic lip service you have been exposed to. The other excuse that makes me laugh is &quot; But I have no time&quot;. As with others here I work 12-14 hours a day sometimes 7 days a week, train dogs several hours a day and most importantly spend time with the family, yet still knock off a little radio on 160 or 40 M. Yeah I know another old fart ranting But you know what, My son is working toward a medical degree, He sez to me the other day, &quot;Thanks Dad for pushing me a little when I was young, I had no idea how many hours a day I was going to have to put in to become sucessfull in this field&quot;. Sounds like a smart kid to me with a fire in his belly burning him toward a goal.

[KB9YCO]

&quot;Get off the kick the numbers are dwindling. Look at the stats more hams now than ever before. The Hobby is far from dying or even getting weak. You no-codes who have been brainwashed by the NCI should wake up and smell the coffee.&quot;

The overall number may be up, but the number per percentage of population has gone down, better check your statistics again. I wish what I was saying is wrong, the more people in the hobby the better, but it's simply not true.

[K9STH]

According to the fatalists amateur radio has been dying since 1921 when spark was outlawed!

Glen, K9STH

[k5frp]

Um, this appears to be a simple numbers thing. So what if the percentage of Ham's to the overall population is less than it was a few years ago. Geez, that doesn't mean it's dying. Contrary to what you've been taught. 684,000 now, to 180,000 back whenever = 504,000 more than there used to be. Looks like growth to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Frank

[K3STX]

I honestly do not understand how you guys think a Ham radio station takes up as much room in your home as a particle accelerator! I am currently building a complete station (receiver/keyer/battery) to be housed in an Altoids tin ( a whopping 2&quot; x 4&quot; x 1&quot;). I have walkman headphones, and the antenna is fed with RG-174 coax (about 1/10th of an inch thick). The antenna is the biggie for me (a dipole made out of magnet wire), but look at W5ALT'S homepage for an indoor vertical that is smaller than most houseplants. If you really want to do it, you can. It is OK not to want to do it, but I guess some guys are disappointed at this attitude and manifest their disappointment as anger.

We're on the same team here.

paul

YCO,

I sit back in awe, these guys actually know more about us then we do. Have you been called a &quot;gimme-tec&quot; yet? I have, it was amusing. You see they assumed that I was all for the automatic upgrade the ARRL has up on the drawing board. Unfortunatly, for them they don't realize that when it comes down to it I am against it. I am still a &quot;gimme-tec&quot; not sure why but I can assure you I sleep well each night.

I guess the bottomline is this. I am not retired and have a lot of hobbies this is just one of many, Ham radio is probably their only hobby which is fine but i simply don't have that kind of time to dedicate to it. I am sure in due time I will upgrade to whatever the FCC class is then but until then I will enjoy my current license class.

[WA2ZDY]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB9YCO @ Jan. 28 2004,10:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">. . .“If these folks are happy being no-code techs on the repeaters, that's fine… So don't look down on them. #Feel bad that they have no incentive to learn things they see no need for, and more than that, nobody to show them the way anyway. #
” WA2ZDY

I never said, nor did KB1KSO, that I didn’t want to, or had no incentive to upgrade. Anyone that gets an amateur license wants to eventually go to the highest possible level, but that doesn’t mean it needs to be right now. #When I am ready I will upgrade regardless of whether there’s a CW requirement or not, none of it is that difficult that any ‘lowly no coder’ should be intimidated by it.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I don't recall specifying whom I thought may or may not have had incentive or desire. It was a blanket statement. Some folks only want to work 2m repeaters. For them, the no-code tech is perfect, and there's little reason for us to try to sway them.

You do sound a bit defensive, even when nothing is directed toward you.

I wonder about that.

[n7wsb]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3UD @ Jan. 27 2004,08:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While we have about 684,000 individual licensees, the real questions are how many are actually active and what is the definition of &quot;active&quot;.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I determined there were like 3000-4000 hams in the Portland Metro area where I live. 4 local clubs with less than 15-30 people at most attending which works out to less than 1% activity.

You could also look at who is on the repeaters locally. In this area there are one or two that are used a lot, but on most days its the same 10 guys. There's probably 30-40 repeaters in the Portland Metro area...

To me though this may be a trend in the US in general. A long time ago I read an article about voter turnout and the fact that church attendence is going down, bowling club membership is dwindeling etc. Does anyone notice a tendency towards apathy in your community? Why does this happen?

[n7wsb]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG3Y @ Jan. 27 2004,11:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Today's teens are still interested in technical things, but they find their outlet in Computers, MPEG players and Home Theater systems, right on down to game-playing machines, and cell phones with built-in cameras.

The biggest difference between today's teens, and the teens of our generation ( IHMO ! ) is that we did not have all this technology handed to us on a silver platter. #If we wanted a Hi Fi at a reasonable cost, we put together a kit. #If we wanted to communicate to someone in another part of the world, ( or even outside of our local telephone area ) we had to put up antennas, gather together receivers and transmitters, and build up a radio station ! #

Today's teenagers, for the most part, do not understand the workings of modern technology, nor are they really interested in doing so. #What they want to do is chat with their friends and aquaintences in Internet Chat Rooms into the wee small hours of the night, or play with their Nintendo, or &quot;Rip&quot; music files to listen to on their MP3 players. #In other words, they want the results of the technology, but really don't care about how that technology was achieved!

We might want to blame the teenagers themselves for being in this condition, but I believe the situation exists, largely because it would be impossible to duplicate the effort expended by major corporations to create this technology.

Let's face it, CW with a homebrew QRP rig is a real kick to certain types of people ( such as myself ! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #) but it is a lot different than downloading a several megabyte music file from somewhere on the other side of the earth, and playing it on your handheld state-of-the-art music machine! # As the old expression goes, &quot; Different strokes for different folks! &quot;

So our job is to introduce today's young people to our hobby, and convince them why it IS so fascinating to us. #It cannot compete directly with these other forms of technology, it must offer something unique to a certain kind of person and therefore it must stand of its own volition.

73 from Jim AG3Y[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What we can do is start intergrating this technology into ham radio. Many of the younger hams I have met are into digital modes pretty heavily, however many of the digital modes we use are pretty outdated - so its hard to say have a handheld radio that can connect to an internet gateway at a reasonable speed. Many of the digipeaters only support 1200 baud - if you live in a big city there are many more 9600 baud digipeaters - which is decent for narrow band speed.

One technology that has interested me since I first saw a presentation on it was d-star. D-Star is a fully documented and open protocol developed by engineers at JARL and can do 128KBps digital modes (mobile or portable), 16 megabits site to site, 8KBps digital voice. One of the first mobile prototypes from Icom has an ethernet jack on the radio - which is pretty cool. This allows for all kinds of applications in amateur radio including cell style radio networks, messaging, internet gateways, and wide area networks.

You could even build a satellite/hf remote control you could use from a laptop or handheld computer in the field - which is just the kind of thing I think younger kids would be interested in http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[KC2KFC]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc9fac @ Jan. 28 2004,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you read it very carefully you will find NO WHERE is AMATEUR radio refered to as a &quot;HOBBY&quot;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It is defined as a &quot;service.&quot;

So is CB.
So is FRS.
So is GMRS.
So is R/C (radio control).

Your point is?

And from the ARRL web site:
&quot;Here's your invitation to a friendly, high-tech hobby
that's got something fun for everyone!&quot;[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well here is part 97.1 Basis and Purpose

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR97.1]

[Page 562-563]

# # # # # # # # # # # TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

# # # # # # # # # # # # COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 97--AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Table of Contents

# # # # # # # # # # #Subpart A--General Provisions

Sec. 97.1 #Basis and purpose.


# #The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an
amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the
following principles:
# #(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
# #(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to
contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
# #© Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through
rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and
technical phases of the art.
# #(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio
service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
# #(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to
enhance international goodwill.

And part 97.3 Definitions (extract)

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2002]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR97.3]

[Page 563-566]

# # # # # # # # # # # TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

# # # # # # # # # # # # COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 97--AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Table of Contents

# # # # # # # # # # #Subpart A--General Provisions

Sec. 97.3 #Definitions.

# #(a) The definitions of terms used in part 97 are:
# #(1) Amateur operator. A person holding a written authorization to be
the control operator of an amateur station.
# #(2) Amateur radio services. The amateur service, the amateur-
satellite service and the radio amateur civil emergency service.
# #(3) Amateur-satellite service. A radiocommunication service using
stations on Earth satellites for the same purpose as those of the
amateur service.
# #(4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of
self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried
out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio
technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.
# #(5) Amateur station. A station in an amateur radio service
consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on
radiocommunications.
...

There a more definitions, but I think these are the ones of interest here.

I live in connecticut. We have a few laws here too. Here are three currently on the books in Hartford:

You aren't allowed to cross a street while walking on your hands.

You may not educate dogs.

It is illegal for a man to kiss his wife on Sunday.

In case your wondering Orv why I posted that? I wanted to make sure that like you I got a post in with nothing but useless information.

So far I am really enjoying this hobby and I am glad the people on my local repeaters and my local amateur radio store have been nothing but welcoming and helpfull.

Whats next Orv? Like president Clinton are you going to debate the meaning of the word &quot;is&quot;. I mean come on!

[N0ZB]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n7wsb @ Jan. 28 2004,17:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does anyone notice a tendency towards apathy in your community? Why does this happen?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Is it flourine in the water? Or subliminal messages from the Home Shopping Network?

Ahhh, who cares?

[KC2KFC]

Hobby Definition of Hobby (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hobby)

Service Definition of Service (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=service)

In case anyone was wondering.

[K3UD]

N7WSB

You are certainly correct about 2 meter repeater activity. I recently purchased an FT-1500 and filled programmed in every standard repeater split and common simplex frequencies. I can let it scan for hours an do not hear very much activity except for scheduled nets. While I think that there are far more than than just 1% of hams who are active on the air, I would wager (a small amount) that the actual total is around 33% or about 226,000 hams, and that could be well on the high side. The HF bands are not near as populated as they were 20 - 25 years ago, and the repeaters I hear are mostly ghost towns. I remember when you literally had to wait in line for repeater access.

In the county I live in, there are about 130 licensed hams, the majority of which are Technician and Novice. I hear very few of these hams on the three local 2 meter repeaters, a couple on 6 meters, no one on 2 meter SSB / CW or 70cm. There are 2 local novices who are active on 10 andThere are maybe 8 higher class licensees who are on HF with any regularity. Maybe a maximum of 20 out of 130 total, or 15%

I understand that one county does not a study make, but I suspect it is not a lot different in other locales.

73
George
K3UD

George, your data is pretty typical all over the United States. You may have heard about the READEX survey that we recently did. We use this company about every 5 years to get an un-biased opinion about the amateur radio service. Several things were very alarming. 1. The average age is now 55. In fact 53% of all licenses are over 55. Looking back at earlier surveys, this ageing factor is growing at an alarming rate. 2. The number of hours now spent on the air is down by 39% from 5 years ago. The new hams that have a technician license use the local repeaters for about a year, then go on to something else. The need for an entry level license that allows some HF is important to the future of amateur radio. We had it once, albeit the old novice doing CW, but they found friends (I did) all over the U. S. and they got to experience the real &quot;magic&quot; of amateur radio. They were not &quot;trapped&quot; by the local repeater that the same old group uses during drive time.

Jim - W5JBP

[ky5u]

You guys talking about low repeater activity hit the nail on the head.

If you're a Tech and there is nothing going on on 2m, and everyone talking about DX on HF, guess what? #You'll either lose interest and quit, or you'll upgrade. More people quit than do upgrade.

If someone sponsered 2m rag chews every evening on a local repeater for a couple of hours, my guess is that we'd cut the Techs we lose in half. #This would breed other activities.

Now, all a bored Tech can do is learn CW or bitch about having to learn CW. Looks like there were enough of the second to really get our attention.

[KB9YCO]

I’m reluctant to post in this mess again, but since it seems to continue on into infinity then here goes.

“Let the Generals put up with the GIMMI-TECS, they are getting the shaft from the ARRL but it is not the first time, and better them than me .Besides one way to look at it it's an incentive for the General to upgrade to Extra and climb out of that CB den.” K6UEY

So now all techs are CBer’s too; another idiotic presumption not based on the facts. We aren’t the one’s that came up with the test Orv, we just took it. What else was there for us to do? Again, was I supposed to demand the older version to be a ‘real ham’ like you? Besides, if you are a ‘real ham’, with all your bitterness and vitriolic hatred, I think I’d much rather be your stupid little stereotype gimme-tech. Why not direct this venom towards the ARRL or the FCC? They’re the ones changing things, supposedly ruining your traditions, not us. All this pent up hostility towards people you don’t know and obviously care nothing about, that’s just sad.
I have no problem with learning code or any version of the test they want to give and when the time is right, if that’s what it takes to upgrade, I will. I never asked for a handout or a free ride, so all that gimme tech crap is just that, crap.
You refer to poor attitudes coming into amateur radio and so far yours is one of the poorest. No encouragement, no suggestion that your best intentions for amateur radio are in mind; just bitterness piled on hatred with personal attacks serving no greater good to the service as a whole. This is not a personal attack, just what I see you posting here.

“I sit back in awe, these guys actually know more about us then we do. Have you been called a &quot;gimme-tec&quot; yet?” KB1KSO

I guess so, right here; but the question is, do I really care what people with a mentality like that have to say anyhow? I think we both know the answer to that one.

“I don't recall specifying whom I thought may or may not have had incentive or desire. #It was a blanket statement. #Some folks only want to work 2m repeaters. #For them, the no-code tech is perfect, and there's little reason for us to try to sway them. #
You do sound a bit defensive, even when nothing is directed toward you. I wonder about that.” #WA2ZDY

What is there to wonder about? I am only defensive for the sake of these stereotypical ‘blanket statements’ that people are spewing out as reality about us ‘lowly no code’ gimme techs (if I may borrow Orv’s little insult again). All of these personal attacks and no solutions or encouragement; my apologies if I incorrectly interpreted your statement. It’s just so hard to tell with all the generalizations about people that the posters in question obviously know nothing, or care nothing, about. #It’s certainly contrary to the brotherhood of amateur radio and is helping no one.

“You could also look at who is on the repeaters locally. In this area there are one or two that are used a lot, but on most days its the same 10 guys. There's probably 30-40 repeaters in the Portland Metro area...” N7WSB

Well things must be vastly different in that part of the country then because when I listen around, in the metropolitan area between Milwaukee and Chicago, all of the amateur bands are full and active. It’s next to impossible to even get an allocation for a repeater in 2 meters or 70 centimeters in this area (there’s a long waiting list for years on end), and for the most part they are all used on a daily basis. Sounds pretty active to me, but Chicago is the third largest city in the country as well, so perhaps it all relative.

“You must be one of those NorthEastern Liberals, who else would resort to such a LOW BLOW as to mention my name and Clinton in the same post.” K6UEY

Are you really this uptight? It seems like you and Clinton are brothers of the same variety; you will justify your actions in the face of reality and when someone points it out to you try to re-interpret and warp basic questions to fit your version of reality. Again, this is not a personal attack; it’s just based on what I see in your postings. Let’s take a look.

Assumptions: “You must be one of those NorthEastern Liberals…”

I didn’t see anywhere that he made any reference to political beliefs, just stating his opinion.

Generalizations: “I often wondered why all the commotion to get HF when they all seem right at home on a 2 meter repeater, I guess it is the feeling of power to come out of no-where and destroy decades of tradition held as valuable to others for no logical reason, it affords a certain amount of ill gotten recognition for those of such low self esteem.”

All techs are looking for a hand out and are solely responsible for the ARRL proposal? You said yourself in a different thread that the ARRL didn’t even solicit opinions from it own members, so how could we be any more responsible than you? I don’t even completely agree with the proposal so I resent being lumped into this category based on your ignorance of what you think all no coders supposedly think or do. No one wants to ruin the tradition; you spit in the face of the tradition by continually showing yourself to be uncaring, unhelpful, and bitter towards anyone that doesn’t think the way you do. Again, not a personal attack, just what I see in your various writings.

Personal attacks: “BTW congratulations on your use of upper case in speaking in the 1st person, see you are capable of learning some thing after all.”

If I were to go through even your last posting (and most in this particular thread, try spell check sometime) and point out all of your spelling, punctuation, and spacing errors, it would take a separate website to do so. Get off the high horse with all this condescension and garbage and start coming up with solutions that we can all endeavor to participate in for the service, instead of wasting your time with tearing everyone else down. Besides, I believe Glen has asked politely, more than once, to stick to the issue and stop the personal attacks. You can’t honestly tell me that your negative attitude (and constant personal attacks) are serving the greater good; if anything you are just causing more division on topics we need to come to some consensus over for that greater good in question. Tell us what we should do to better contribute to the service, being as you are a seasoned amateur and a higher class licensee I would respect and value that opinion. But, all these personal attacks serve only to make you look bad and don’t contribute anything at all. Have a nice day.

[kc7jty]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG4YO @ Jan. 29 2004,10:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys talking about low repeater activity hit the nail on the head.

If you're a Tech and there is nothing going on on 2m, and everyone talking about DX on HF, guess what? #You'll either lose interest and quit, or you'll upgrade. More people quit than do upgrade.

If someone sponsered 2m rag chews every evening on a local repeater for a couple of hours, my guess is that we'd cut the Techs we lose in half. #This would breed other activities.

Now, all a bored Tech can do is learn CW or bitch about having to learn CW. #Looks like there were enough of the second to really get our attention.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Absolutely correct........you didn't mention however that the no codies are shunned by the yes codies and the resentment of the no codies towards the higher ups. 2 meters is indeed a wasteland for the reasons given.
When the no codies get HF privs will the same thing happen to their new portions of the HF bands?

[w8ob]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc7jty @ Jan. 29 2004,10:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG4YO @ Jan. 29 2004,10http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You guys talking about low repeater activity hit the nail on the head.

If you're a Tech and there is nothing going on on 2m, and everyone talking about DX on HF, guess what? #You'll either lose interest and quit, or you'll upgrade. More people quit than do upgrade.

If someone sponsered 2m rag chews every evening on a local repeater for a couple of hours, my guess is that we'd cut the Techs we lose in half. #This would breed other activities.

Now, all a bored Tech can do is learn CW or bitch about having to learn CW. #Looks like there were enough of the second to really get our attention.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Absolutely correct........you didn't mention however that the no codies are shunned by the yes codies and the resentment of the no codies towards the higher ups. 2 meters is indeed a wasteland for the reasons given.
#When the no codies get HF privs will the same thing happen to their new portions of the HF bands?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Given the message below, one wonders why the complainee's do not do something to correct the problem?

You don't need to be a extra class to start up a evening ragchew net, It just takes a little effort to get the thing going.

If one has to complain about learning CW than maybe one is involved in the wrong hobby perhaps model airplanes or scuba diving would fit better.

Yes no-codes are shunned by the so called elistist, but then again the elite corps welcomed these glorified CBers
to 2 Meter and got shafted and back stabbed so many times by them, they put up their hands in disgust and gave up.

Man, some of the comments you read here makes you wonder if some of these dudes fell in a deep hole what would they do? Simply climb out with a little effort or stay down there freezing to death while waiting for someone to come along and do it for them.

[K3UD]

Jim W5JBP

While I had some knowledge of the READEX survey being done, I did not know what the scope of it was. That the average age is 55 is not too surprising. I am curious what the median age is.

The finding on the state of activity among the Tech class is not surprising either. One of the regular posters here did some work in the FCC database and determined that the Tech licensees, in very large numbers, are not renewing.

The overall number of individually licensed hams has been within 1% of what it was prior to the last restructure effective date in May 2000. This means that while the ARS population is keeping up with the death rate and the non renewal rate, there is literally no growth. In the decades of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, there was average growth of about 20%+ per decade.

While it can be debated as to why this is happening, the bottom line is that we have hit a plateau. if, as seems to be happening, there is a dearth of renewals and a large number of deceased hams whose license is still on the books as active, it will be a real challenge to create a sustainable positive growth rate.The implied outcome of the already high and increasing average age is that the death rate will only accelerate.

I certainly agree with your comments concerning technicians and 2 meter repeaters. This amounts to a somewhat closed society where everything is the same over the operational life span of tech who uses only them for his or her operating activities.

Your comments on the Novice experience echo many that have been posted here and given over the air. The old Novice license worked because it allowed the taste of HF, and originally a taste of VHF phone. At one time 60-70% of all novices were upgrading. This did not happen with the newer tech class. It was a begin and end all license for many of them.

On the numbers of active hams....My estimate was from my own county and who I personally here on the air. If your findings seem to reflect the 15% activity rate, It might be a serious problem. However, I don't think that activity rates have been measured to any great extent over the years unless there is a history via the READEX survey that goes back 15 or 20 years. I just seems that with 684,000 hams, one should hear much more activity than is commonly heard.

You might have read some of my posts on the subject of the ARRL's proposal. I love the idea of a beginner class (Novice) which has the privileges (a very good amount of them on HF) the board recommended.

I argued for something like this back in the debate of 1997/1999 when the ARRL board first focused on the perceived problem of the barrier between the Techs and the rest of us. I like the merger of the Advanced and Extra classes. I don't have a problem if Tech+ and Novice move into the General Class as these people (those who are active) most likely have a fair amount of HF experience.

I do question the wisdom of the moving the Tech to General and feel, for a variety of reasons, that it is this license class who should initially populate the beginner class. Alternatively, put Novice, Tech and Tech+ into the new class with everyone getting all privileges above 50 MHz as well as the proposed HF privileges.

As always, I certainly appreciate you (and Ed) for taking time to directly address issues posted by those on this board who are passionate and really care about the state and future of Amateur Radio…even if we tend to disagree with each other some of the time.

73
George
K3UD

Lets see, the US population has been ageing since 1990, by 2010 the majority of people will be over 45. This is occuring because the baby boon is moving through the population. The US is not going to die. That the average age of amateurs is following the same trend as the general population is no surprise. Couple with this the 36,000,000 that didn't survive their gestation period since 1973 and you see exactly what you would expect.

Check out the distribution of ARRL members by age. Young hams don't join. This whole thing is about saving the ARRL not amateur radio.

73, Marty WB2RJR/7

[wb9mcw]

I WILL USE ALL CAPITALS BECAUSE I AM YELLING! #I HAVE BEEN A HAM SINCE 1972 AND AM 45 YRS. OLD. I USED TO MAKE FUN OF MY BROTHER (W9ADS) FOR BEING A CB'ER BACK IN OUR HIGH SCHOOL DAYS. #WHERE DO I LOG MY MOST QSO TIME NOW? #NOT ON 2MT! #NOT ON HF! NOT ON 70CM.! #IT IS ON THE CB! #WHY? BECAUSE I WANT TO GIVE BACK TO HAM RADIO WHAT IT GAVE TO ME ( A GREAT HOBBY-AND A LOT OF FRIENDS ALL OVER THE WORLD) I FIRST MET KB9YCO AT A CB LUNCH GATHERING 8 YEARS AGO. #A FINE , BRIGHT YOUNG LAD WHOM I FIGURED WOULD GO FAR IN THE HOBBY AND IN LIFE. #I'M CONSTANTLY IMPRESSED BY MR YCO'S MATURITY AND GROWTH IN THE RADIO HOBBY! # HE WILL SOMEDAY, I'M SURE BE AN EXTRA WHEN HE IS GOOD AND READY! #NOW WHY DON'T ALL YOU UPPER LEVEL CLASS HAMS GET OFF YOUR DUFF, FIRE UP A CB RADIO AND DO LIKE I HAVE BEEN DOING--MENTOR A CB'ER OUT OF THE DARKNESS AND INTO THE LIGHT OF HAM RADIO--REMEMBER TO TELL HIM NOT TO GIVE UP HIS CB HOBBY AND TO DO THE SAME--GIVE BACK TO THE HOBBY!!! # HOW MANY OF YOU CAN SAY THAT YOU HAVE MENTORED ON AVERAGE 1 PERSON INTO HAM RADIO A YEAR?? #I CAN...I DO...AND I WILL KEEP BRINGING THEM OVER FROM THE DARKSIDE! #WHY? #BECAUSE IT IS NOT SO DARK OVER THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE ( I ENJOY NOT HAVING TO ID EVERY 10 MIN.) AND I AM HAVING GREAT TIME AND ADDING A NEW HAM EVERY YEAR ON AVERAGE!!! # IF YOU ALL DID THE SAME THEN THIS THREAD WOULD NEVER HAVE TO EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE! #MANY GREAT FUTURE HAMS ARE ON THE CB EVERY DAY JUST WAITING TO BE NUDGED INTO THE FINE HOBBY WE CALL HAM RADIO, #BUT IF NO NUDGERS ARE MONITORING #THE BAND THEN NOTHING HAPPENS. #PLEASE DO NOT START THE CRAP THAT CB'ERS MAKE POOR HAMS, #BECAUSE I AM HERE TO TELL ALL OF YOU NAYSAYERS THAT SOME OF THE FINEST HAMS I HAVE EVER KNOWN WERE CB'ERS FIRST! #JUST LIKE MY BROTHER WHO SURE HAD THE LAST LAUGH WHEN HE SAW ME ON THE 27MHZ BAND!!! # #VTY, #BRYAN WADSWORTH-- WB9MCW-- (A LATENT CB'ER AND PROUD OF IT) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ky5u]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">jty: you didn't mention however that the no codies are shunned by the yes codies [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I assume you mean on 2 meters? Not so as far as I have seen. There are as many Generals and Extras on 2 meters as Techs. No attitude problem I can see either.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ob: You don't need to be a extra class to start up a evening ragchew net, It just takes a little effort to get the thing going.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You're absolutely right. Only I noticed that the loss of the new Technicians comes fairly early in their ham radio life. What I think is happening is that they don't really understand that they can do what you suggest. That's why someone with a little experience needs to get it going. If you can keep somone active for 6 months, it appears they accept it in their life. Not very scientific, but it is what I have seen.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As always, I certainly appreciate you (and Ed) for taking time to directly address issues posted by those on this board who are passionate and really care about the state and future of Amateur Radio…even if we tend to disagree with each other some of the time. 73 George K3UD[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well put George. And I hope Jim and Ed both know our opposition to parts of their proposal does not mean we don't appreciate all the other things they do.

Well put George. #And I hope Jim and Ed both know our opposition to parts of their proposal does not mean we don't appreciate all the other things they do.

-------------

Sure, I realize that.

I just get flustrated when I get e-mails that are pa