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n0ov
12-11-2003, 08:45 PM
Antenna Challege

What is the best way to configure an antenna that will let you get on HF when you

1. Don't have lots of room

2. Want to intentially keep the HF antenna profile stealthy to limit attention

3. $$$ are limited

My favorate is a G5RV Inverted V

K3STX
12-11-2003, 09:00 PM
Is this a problem you want solved, or just an execise in creative thinking? If it is for YOU, you have to tell us whether apartment, townhouse, single family, small yard, etc... Wire dipoles can be almost invisible if made with thin wire. You can make a wire verical up the side of a tree, paint it brown, and feed with coax run under lawn. But for this you need a house (oops, no you don't, you can do this in an apartment so long as you don't get caught).

paul

w5alt
12-11-2003, 09:00 PM
There is no "best" answer to your question, since it depends on the situation and your definitions of "stealth," "lot's of room," and "$$$."

A G5RV wouldn't be my first choice for an antenna, no matter how much or little room I had, and it certainly wouldn't fit in my living room. On the other hand I have a vertical sitting in the living room corner that few people who visit even notice. It cost me less than $10 to build and I've worked 170 countries so far. If I had room here to put up a G5RV, I could put up a real antenna!

73,

n0ov
12-11-2003, 09:38 PM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Dec. 10 2003,15http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this a problem you want solved, or just an execise in creative thinking? #
paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Paul

Exercise in creative thinking -- amateur radio operators can come up with some great alternatives when faced with a fun challenge.

I just moved and am lucky enough to have some land to put up some antennas. #Didn't have the option in the place we had a few months back.

Wanted to have some fun and see if I can learn something new. #Besides, with all the developments with restrictions -- some of the posts may allow some other members to get on the air.

Cool solutions!

73

DocRF
12-12-2003, 06:34 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Dec. 11 2003,14:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Dec. 10 2003,15<!--emo&amp;http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this a problem you want solved, or just an execise in creative thinking? #
paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Paul

Exercise in creative thinking -- amateur radio operators can come up with some great alternatives when faced with a fun challenge.

I just moved and am lucky enough to have some land to put up some antennas. #Didn't have the option in the place we had a few months back.

Wanted to have some fun and see if I can learn something new. #Besides, with all the developments with restrictions -- some of the posts may allow some other members to get on the air.

Cool solutions!

73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Ah, you have not figured out the &quot;trick&quot; yet.

Stealth antennas MUST be designed to take advantage of some feature of the locale where they are used. #A G5RV is one of the worst choices in the world for most stealth installations.

You want an exercise in creative thinking? #Tell us about the last place you lived. #The place where you claim you &quot;didn't have the option&quot;. #I'll just bet that, once we know more about why you FALSELY believe you could not get on the air from there, that we can, in less than 15 minutes, come up with an antenna idea that would have netted you DXCC in one contest weekend.

Creativity starts with a thoroughly well-defined and articulated problem statement.

Provide one! I think the last place you lived would be a great start.

Doc

n0ov
12-12-2003, 01:49 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DocRF @ Dec. 11 2003,00:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Dec. 11 2003,14:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Dec. 10 2003,15<!--emo&amp;http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this a problem you want solved, or just an execise in creative thinking? #
paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Paul

Exercise in creative thinking -- amateur radio operators can come up with some great alternatives when faced with a fun challenge.

I just moved and am lucky enough to have some land to put up some antennas. #Didn't have the option in the place we had a few months back.

Wanted to have some fun and see if I can learn something new. #Besides, with all the developments with restrictions -- some of the posts may allow some other members to get on the air.

Cool solutions!

73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Ah, you have not figured out the &quot;trick&quot; yet.

Stealth antennas MUST be designed to take advantage of some feature of the locale where they are used. #A G5RV is one of the worst choices in the world for most stealth installations.

You want an exercise in creative thinking? #Tell us about the last place you lived. #The place where you claim you &quot;didn't have the option&quot;. #I'll just bet that, once we know more about why you FALSELY believe you could not get on the air from there, that we can, in less than 15 minutes, come up with an antenna idea that would have netted you DXCC in one contest weekend.

Creativity starts with a thoroughly well-defined and articulated problem statement.

Provide one! #I think the last place you lived would be a great start.

Doc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
OK -- how about this.


Scenerio 1
Have a plot of land that is about 60 x 80, no trees one story home in a development with a city restriction stating antennas cannot be higher than 20 feet.

Want to get on the air without attracting too much attention -- have about $200 to spend.


Scenerio 2
Members of the local ARES unit and want a quick, portable HF solution that can be used in an emergency without taking up lots of room.

w5alt
12-12-2003, 02:58 PM
Doc is right. In order to come up with a decent stealth antenna, you have to take advantage of some factor in the situation. There is always something that can be done, but what it is depends on the situation. Take a look at my Web Pages (http://mars.comportco.com/~w5alt/antennas/notes/ant-notes.php?pg=23) for a general idea of the approach.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Dec. 12 2003,09:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scenerio 1
Have a plot of land that is about 60 x 80, no trees one story home in a development with a city restriction stating antennas cannot be higher than 20 feet.

Want to get on the air without attracting too much attention -- have about $200 to spend.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scenario 1 is pretty common. I used a Butternut vertical with a few radials. Not a beam, but worked the world. You can build your own multiband HF vertical for much less than $200.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scenerio 2
Members of the local ARES unit and want a quick, portable HF solution that can be used in an emergency without taking up lots of room.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scenario 2 is similar to my travel situation. I use QRP, but the same antenna could be used with higher power with no problem. See my Travel Antennal (http://mars.comportco.com/~w5alt/antennas/travelant.html) for one option.

K3STX
12-12-2003, 04:05 PM
OK,

For scenario #2, if you really mean emergency then who cares if you are breaking the zoning rules anyway. I would think in an emergency these would be moot. I think one of those mobile antenna &quot;Hamstick&quot; things with a lousy ground would still work fine for the USA.

Scenario #2. if you can go up to 20 feet, why not go up to 20 feet! Can you place a vertical antenna (home-brew) along side your house? Your house will hurt radiation in one direction, but you will still get out. Can you put a dipole on your roof? In an old apartment I threw a dipole onto the roof of the building, It was literally lying on the roof (I used black wire and black coax on a black roof). You could not see ANYTHING and it worked pretty well. If you have a chimney you can get at least some of the wire off of the roof material, use 20 ga. wire and it is stealth.

Scenario #2. Run a random wire all over the place, out the window, over to a fence, attached to a ...


Scenario #2. A flagpole vertical. I think this is what these antennas were made for.

Wire, wire, wire.

paul

12-12-2003, 05:19 PM
&quot;Short&quot; Cobra style dipole. I use one. It's 73 feet long and it is resonant on 75 meters, 40 meters, 6 meters, and nearly resonant on the other bands. 17 meters is the worse, but I can tune it to a 2:1 swr (or thereabouts) with my tuner.

It needs to be up at least 30 feet.

It's made from sometimes hard to find three conductor rotor cable from Radio Shack.

Let me know if anyone wants the plans and I'll email them to you.

David, N1ZHE


David

ky5u
12-12-2003, 05:29 PM
There is a pretty neat arrangement for hamsticks made by &quot;Lakeview&quot;. #It is a dipole mount for hamsticks where one is the antenna and a second hamstick is a counterpoise. #I saw it in a AES catalogue (Spring/Summer 2003 #pp.100)but I am sure Universal and HRO would have the mount too. #It was like $15 bucks.

There is a small company that goes to hamfests (can't find the blasted business cared) called something liks CJ Enterprises that offers pre made hamstick type dipoles for like $75 dollars.

I worked a guy last night in St Louis on a 40M hamstick dipole and he sounded as loud as anyone else on the band. #

Guess there is no reason why it would not work with ANY mobile ham antenna using 3/8 X 24 mounts as long as you used two of them.

Also, check out my review of the MFJ 1621 antenna which sells for $89.95 on eham. #It is an &quot;indoor&quot; or good weather antenna. #I use one on the road traveling in my hotel with an FT 840. #I set it in the middle of the bed.

N8CPA
12-12-2003, 06:17 PM
Stealth experiments are fun.

12 years ago, living in a slab built home in Ohio, I was able to work a station in Manitoba on 10M 25W SSB. I used a magmount 10M antenna, stuck on a dog cage next to the radio desk.

After I moved in here, before I got the tower up, I used a wire mailbasket on my desk for a groundplane. I attached a Hustler 40m radiator directly to a spare magmount, without the mast, and check into Midcars on 7258 (NCS in 0 land). I don't remember that power level, though.

Sometimes, when I'm bored, I do such things. What can I say?--I'm a ham.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

DocRF
12-12-2003, 07:19 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Dec. 12 2003,06:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">OK -- how about this.


Scenerio 1
Have a plot of land that is about 60 x 80, no trees one story home in a development with a city restriction stating antennas cannot be higher than 20 feet.

Want to get on the air without attracting too much attention -- have about $200 to spend.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
A little too easy. You can even purchase a commercial antenna for this situation. Anybody's vertical that fits the height restriction, ground mounted. Four &quot;radials&quot; tied to a ground rod near the antenna. All four &quot;radials&quot; rise up as they leave the ground rod, about a 45 degree angle, until the 10 foot height. Monofilament fishing line can be attached to the vertical to establish the first &quot;10 foot high&quot; point. Radials then head outward to whatever supports you want to plant. I have often used 1 X 2 pine, treated with Thompson's water seal.

It would have been more difficult if you had said &quot;community does not allow antennas at all&quot;. The fact that they state a max of 20 feet means you have free reign to install support structures anywhere you need them.

By proper top loading of a vertical, you can do quite well on frequencies as low as 80 meters, with a 20 foot high vertical.

Also, bear in mind that you have a &quot;restriction&quot; of 20 feet only if someone actually inspects and measures. Most of the time they don't, so I'd start at 30 feet and if someone says it's too high, I'd invite them to measure it. They'll usually back down. If they don't, and they measure 30 feet, I'd say &quot;oops. I thought I measured it at 20 feet.&quot;

If the restriction was &quot;no antennas&quot;, I'd fabricate a reasonably loaded vertical into a 4-8&quot; diameter PVC pipe, like the Ventenna, and plant it on the roof, with some radials slipped underneath the shingles.

If this is all in the back yard, you won't attract much attention. If you homebrew the vertical, you won't be able to spend $200.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">


Scenerio 2
Members of the local ARES unit and want a quick, portable HF solution that can be used in an emergency without taking up lots of room.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Not quite enough information. Are you using HF for local communications or cross-country? And what is the restriction on room? Vertical or horizontal?

Practically speaking, in the event of an emergency, nobody's going to prevent you from throwing wires in trees, concrete blocks on building roofs, etc. I would simply have some nice long spools of copper wire, insulators, rope, a slingshot, and dead weights in the &quot;go kit&quot; and fabricate what I need on site.

The backpackers have some exceptionally good solutions. Lightweight wire for a dipole, fed with lightweight 300 ohm twinlead, makes an antenna that can be supported by the flimsiest branches.

There are some telescoping 30 foot masts available, light enough that very lightweight twine can guy them to darn near anything at ground level. If you're in a completely paved area, the guy strings attach to car bumpers.

Three masts is ideal - one to hold the feed point and one for each end. Any length antenna can be erected.

For this exercise, I focused on horizontal dipoles, as I assumed your needs were primarily local.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This is fun!

Doc