New 10 Meter Propagation Logger

With the sunspot cycle headed into the cellar, I thought it would be nice to have a way to find other amateurs on the 10M band, and to be alerted of openings. So, instead of just wishing, I created a page to make it happen.

The page acts as an HTML based chat room that allows you to see who is in the room, create private rooms, and send private messages to others in the room. My idea of what the room might be used for is posting a message like "Calling CQ on 28.450" or "Heard KB3FYD on 28.420". It really is what we make it, so no hard and fast rules will be set unless it becomes necessary.

There are no ads on the site at all, and the service is absolutely free. Login with your call sign and a password of your choice (to keep anyone from logging in under the same call or seeing your PM's). There is also a place to enter your email address, but that is NOT required.

go to:

http://www.lytewave.com/

and click on the link for the 10 Meter propogation spots.

I hope you like it.

Scott
KB3FYD

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DocRF @ Dec. 08 2003,17:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On ten meters, I find it much easier simply to listen for the beacons. #Then I know that the band is open.

Then, if I want to rustle up a QSO, I send CQ.

If I want to find out of anybody else is already on the band, I use any of the hundreds of DX cluster websites, like this one:

http://oh2aq.kolumbus.com/dxs/

Since you're into building a website, here's something I'd love to see.

Put a world map on the website. #Graphically show the current openings. #How? #Have users manually enter their lat/long, and either a known beacon station callsign (whose lat/long you look up in a table) or the lat/long of a station they recently contacted. #Plant a line on the map showing the opening. #Color-code the lines by how recently they were posted. #I think any line more than a few hours old should disappear.

Can this be done?

Doc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Great idea! #Now that would be something to see in real time. #The actual or reasonable facsimile of an e-cloud or F2 reflector. #Of course it would also have to drift with time to the proper location on the planet.

In addition, I have to agreee, if I want to know whats happening on the bands, I just go to one of the many DX clusters.

Lacking the above real world map with e-cloud designators, your site would really be just another DX cluster or something similar.

K2WH

[ve3arf]

This site has an element to it that the DXclusters do not.
It allows people to announce that they are on and calling. (self spotters get flack on the DXclusters).10m can be one of those bands that is open but everyone is listening and no one is calling. The DXcluster gets very quiet for 10m spots , so 10m enthusiasts can check in there. There are a few cluster users who whine if the spots aren't DX ...so sporadic E and aurora spots shouldn't ruffle any feathers too. Good Luck with your site.

Rob

[WW3ZZ]

Try the packet cluster. It posts openings.

[VE3EN]

I think its a great idea. 10M is a great band.. and can even be interesting in the dead spot. AU openings and sporadic E are cool.

I frequently spot 10M Beacons on the cluster.. however people dont bother trying...

A place for people to hang out in real time so we can atleast try and make a contact would be great.

It would be great when i hear a beacon..... Call cq on 10 CW and actually have somebody come back to me.

Its still fun for me to work the east coast of the USA.. its all about the radio and the thrill of making a contact, no matter where the location or no matter what mode or band conditions. The thought of making a Sporadic E contact with somewhere really close like New Jersey or Virginia in the late night hours during the dead of the cycle is pretty cool.... atleast to me anyways. #Im sure there are oldtimers out there reading this saying.. what a silly young lad.. but hey.. im 100% behing making a contact with anybody, anytime, any band, any signal.

Just my thoughts.. i could ramble on.. but i wont.

73
Kev, VE3GIB

[W4RVZ]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DocRF @ Dec. 09 2003,16:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On ten meters, I find it much easier simply to listen for the beacons. #Then I know that the band is open.

Then, if I want to rustle up a QSO, I send CQ.

If I want to find out of anybody else is already on the band, I use any of the hundreds of DX cluster websites, like this one:

http://oh2aq.kolumbus.com/dxs/

Since you're into building a website, here's something I'd love to see.

Put a world map on the website. #Graphically show the current openings. #How? #Have users manually enter their lat/long, and either a known beacon station callsign (whose lat/long you look up in a table) or the lat/long of a station they recently contacted. #Plant a line on the map showing the opening. #Color-code the lines by how recently they were posted. #I think any line more than a few hours old should disappear.

Can this be done?

Doc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
6 meters has something like this already. PA1SIX has a 6 meter propagation page that shows a world map with projected Es, AE, F2 etc. openings that update every 2 minutes. It also shows spots and paths for qso's that are posted on the packetcluster. These update every 5 minutes and also change color as their age factor increases. This is a great tool for catching a 6m opening as its beginning. It shouldn't be hard for someone to do the same for 10m.

Heres the link to the main page.

http://home.wxs.nl/~pa1six/pa1six.htm

Then go down to the STATIC INFORMATION line and click the button called "6 m prop?".

Ed/kg4qmi

[n6tz]

I would strongly suggest that an effort be made to create a common "calling frequency" and see to it that every ten meter operator knows it. Then you just tune to that frequency and call, knowing that maybe many ops are listening.
Back before two meters, we used ten meters in the L.A. for local stuff. I think our frequency was 28.600 back then.
Remember 146.52 national calling frequency??? If everyone used it, two meters would be alive again.
Hal, N6TZ

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. The map idea is good, but would take some doing. Maybe when I retire (a loooong time from now) I'll have time to do a project like that. Then again, there are propagation prediction programs that do almost exactly what was described, minus the live updates by users. (W6EL Prop - a great program).

The DX clusters are OK, but I rarely see spots for 10 meters when I do look at the cluster. Plus, do you really NEED a cluster for 40 or 80 meters when the sunspots are down? Odds are, the band is open enought to make SOME contacts. On the other hand, for someone who operates mostly (or more frequently) 10 meters, there is a need for an exclusive place for spots, as finding ANY activity on the very big band may be nearly impossible, let alone rare DX.

So that is why I made the page. If I want to operate 20 meters, I'll pop up there and call CQ, no spots needed. Odds are someone will come back. On 10, however, odds are against you.

Hopefully, the 10 M activity page helps.

73,

Scott

really think things might work out better if you used a irc style chat , i for 1 am not going to sit there and keep clicking reload to see who is posting , and having to click reload is not really real time , all depends when you refresh the page . post back on qrz 1 year from now and we will see if you are still around . my bet is NO

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (u8mee @ Dec. 10 2003,13:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">really think things might work out better if you used a irc style chat , i for 1 am not going to sit there and keep clicking reload to see who is posting , and having to click reload is not really real time , all depends when you refresh the page . post back on qrz 1 year from now and we will see if you are still around . my bet is NO[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If the page is heavily used I will upgrade the software so that it auto-reloads. This, unfortunately, costs money, and I'm not going to spend lots of cash until I know the service will be used.

I have looked into using java to inteface with an IRC server. This has many, many drawbacks:

1. IRC is prone to flodding, hackers, jackasses, and various other derelicts who will do anything to screw up and take over your room. Not fun.
2. Irc does not keep a running log of spots with time annotated. You only would get spots posted AFTER you log in.
3. If using a web interface with Java, many port issues arrise due to firewalls. HTML/cgi is the way to go for the highest cross platform/browser compatability.

In the meantime you are more than welcome to create your own page and write or purchase the code to overcome these issues. We'll check with you in a year and see if you've completed that task. My bet is NO.

73,

Scott

i have no desire to do such a page ! and frankly i dont much think you will make 6 months , i was there today and all i saw was people joining and leaving , no posts or chat going on , there is many more types of chat that is much easier than refreshing a page to see what has been posted . and many of them are free ware .

[k4mts]

Scott--
Thanks for trying to do something constructive for the hobby. #We need more of this. #Constructive criticism is great, but I hate it when (a few) people immediately doom you to failure. #Experimenting and having fun is what it's all about. #73.

Mike

[AE6IP]

A thought on Java/IRC. What you say about IRC nets is more or less true depending on the net. CQDX, for example is on a "private" net, and I never see any problems there. Slashnet, which hosts another channel I am on regularly is pretty well organized and doesn't have the script kiddie problem, as is freenode.

You might consider getting in touch with the WorldIRC guys that host CQDX -- it might well be the best solution for you.

Marty

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Scottkb3fyd @ Dec. 10 2003,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (u8mee @ Dec. 10 2003,13:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i for 1 am not going to sit there and keep clicking reload to see who is posting , and having to click reload is not really real time [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If the page is heavily used I will upgrade the software so that it auto-reloads. #This, unfortunately, costs money, and I'm not going to spend lots of cash until I know the service will be used.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scott, it wont cost you anymore money if you were to add a meta tag to refresh the page every minute or so

Just add:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE"><meta http-equiv="refresh" content="60"> [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

And you will be just fine. It will be a low cost option in the meantime until you figure out how you would liekto go with the website.

[ab8rr]

Scott, I think it's great that you are trying a different approach. I'm sure many of the new modes, or facets of Amateur Radio were at some point ridiculed or criticized by people when someone was willing to make an effort to try something new. Don't let that discourage you. This service would be a much more constructive and friendly place if we offered each other encouragement rather than dooming each other's ideas to failure, but what do I know? My thoughts, for whatever they are worth, I now stand braced for the backlash.

[K7PIG]

No derrogatory comments from the PIG station, why not just move the vfo knob cw and ccw in the cw beacon areas?
Beacons are not always a sign 10 meters is open, moving the vfo knob can tell a different story.
I can state this, 10 meters is a wonderful amateur radio band, filled with alot of various modes, have fun with lower power and high power if needed.
CW and PSK-31 is the best, get you toe-toes wet, even at 5 wpm, I do and have a wonderful day.
Yes, Advanced at 5 wpm I am, fun is the issue and it works for me.
Come on everyone, upgrade and enjoy the amateur radio service, signals on top of illegals is legal, go for it and do it.
RTTY is also coming back to 10 meters, MFSK16 and 8 are laughable fun modes, if only I could just figure out how to get MFSK to receive properly. MFSK-8 will make you laugh for it's slow weird signal.
Try 10 meters on a North/South path, now this time of the year is the North/ South Path, not to say the sole paths. Rinky-Dink aerials do work folks, some open-wire (make it youself type) and lots of wire with a decent match-box, a multi-band aerial for several other bands, not all, but several.
Johnson-Viking Match Box are the best for reasonable used prices, try one and I beleieve you'll like them.
No shiney meters, knobs; band selector switch and 2 variables to adjust and your on the air, external SWR Bridge or the radios SWR Bridge is all you need.
Today for me is extending feed lines, loss, well, I'll put up with loss on a temporary basis, shack was moved inside yesterday UNTIL a larger shed is built.
Enjoy 10 meters.

I had thought of the META-REFRESH tag, believe me. Unfortunately, since the chat page is generated dynamically by the cgi on the server, it is not as simple as just adding it to the HTML. Also, it would violate the software agreement if I did change the cgi script.

To the critics: I envision this as more of a bulletin board than a chat service. If you don't like the service, shove off. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

For everyone else: Thanks for your support and constructive criticism. If the service is used, I will improve it. I think we'll find out its usefullness this weekend during the contest.

73,

Scott

[KB5WIM]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Scottkb3fyd @ Dec. 11 2003,07:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you don't like the service, shove off. #Frankly, I don't give a damn.

73,
Scott[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scott: Your a real Boy Scout!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DocRF @ Dec. 11 2003,09:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For the auto-refresh, can you have the cgi script show up in a frame, and add a meta-tag that instructs the user's browser to auto-refresh that particular frame?

I'm a little surprised that you say you are not allowed to alter the cgi script - isn't the code distributed under the GNU license? You can modify any of that all you want. If you're not running this on a Linux/Apache server using GNU code, you should - you'll never run into a cost issue and you're free to modify the code all you want.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Unfortunately, the Frames with the cgi as the target in order to refresh the content will not work. Since the cgi doesn't only do a reload, but also posts data previously entered into the script to verify Call Sign and Password, the refresh will not work. To be more accurate, it would work, but you'd have to hit "OK" each time to allow a re-post of the data.

I did quite a bit of looking, and this script fit the bill better than just about anything out there. I don't want to use Java, or some other third-party software. Also, I want all processing to occur on my server, so that I have control. I don't want to depend on someone else's server for the site to work. Also, I want the page to work with old browsers and old computers.

If the site continues seeing use, I will upgrade the software after the holidays. This will not only auto-refresh the chat, but will allow users to set up permanent accounts and allow for greater administrative control.

Also, I appreciate the comments on packet cluster use. Unfortunately, in my area all packet activity has ceased (minus APRS). I'm sure I'm not the only HAM in this predicament.

Always be prepared,

Scott

[W1KLM]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Scottkb3fyd @ Dec. 11 2003,02:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To the critics: I envision this as more of a bulletin board than a chat service. #If you don't like the service, shove off. #Frankly, I don't give a damn.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scott,
I've used the service for a cpl days now and am pleased with what I see. Don't be discouraged by the OF's that couldn't write a cgi script if their Geritol depended on it.

As for the upcoming contest this weekend, I will be using your chat-serve in addition to other spotting sources for comparison. I like the flexibility of your script much better than the impersonality of other dx clusters.

The shove off was appropriate....


W1KLM

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kmatheny2 @ Dec. 11 2003,13:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the upcoming contest this weekend, I will be using your chat-serve in addition to other spotting sources for comparison. I like the flexibility of your script much better than the impersonality of other dx clusters.

The shove off was appropriate....


W1KLM[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thanks for your nice comments. I guess part of me wishes I hadn't told them to "shove off". (could have been MUCH worse!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but rather ignored the nay-sayers. That's what I'll do from now on. As far as constructive criticism and suggestions go, that's great! Bring it on.

[W1KLM]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Scottkb3fyd @ Dec. 11 2003,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess part of me wishes I hadn't told them to "shove off". #(could have been MUCH worse!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but rather ignored the nay-sayers. #That's what I'll do from now on. As far as constructive criticism and suggestions go, that's great! #Bring it on.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Scott et all,
Over the years I've said many things on different Msg boards that probably I shouldn't have said. But with each event, after a good night's sleep and a thorough review, I didn't not regret having said it, nor did I care to be quoted.

I enjoy constructive criticism as much as the next guy, but for all those who choose to just gripe, I say this:
Scott is at least doing something constructive with his talents. He's doing his best to contribute to Ham Radio. If you can do better, do so and we'll all benefit from it. If you can't do anything but park yourself on "your frequency" and complain about your hemorrhoids, then don't gripe at the guys who are trying to improve the hobby.

I've spent my two cents.....EOM

W1KLM

[wb5yiw]

Scott,

Don't let the dickheads of the world discourage you, I think any attempt to foster interest in ham radio is a good one. You'll just have to overlook some of the folks on here, as they don't seem to find any joy in anything they do with the exception of tearing someone else down. That used to bother me, but now I have grown to like it. An old minister opened my eyes one day. He said that any time you cause someone else to notice you, you take a chance that they will be unpleasant. He went on to say that doing that brings them some small happiness, and that spreading joy and happiness is a great responsibility. Know that when when these poor unfortunates unload on you, that you have done two things: the person doing the bitching has taken some delight in trying to tear you down, and you have at least for a time protected someone else (who might not know what I'm sharing with you) from being affected by that person. After all, a body can only rant and rave at one person at a time on here.

So, read the posts, take any advice you find helpful or sound, and ignore the rest. They'll get over it.

73's

Bryan

[AI6O]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (u8mee @ Dec. 10 2003,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">really think things might work out better if you used a irc style chat , i for 1 am not going to sit there and keep clicking reload to see who is posting , and having to click reload is not really real time , all depends when you refresh the page . post back on qrz 1 year from now and we will see if you are still around . my bet is NO[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I guess there will always be thoughtless naysayers around. I would encourage you to go for it. I am an avid 10 meters hound, and anything to assist in keeping the band alive, I'm for it.

[N9TTX]

I'll have to check in and see what it is all about. Here at the house, I do not internet access at the HF station, though there is a switchbox/separate HF Xciever in the making for the VHF room. I also do not use clusters or spotting nets as of yet. I have not gotten any packet equipment, but it is possible in the future I might. In any case, 10 is my favorite band and now that I have the HF station back together, I will be out there again...AND in the mobile again...where I make most of my contacts. Anyhoo, glad to see you are promoting the 10 meter experience. The coming contest will have a Cushcraft A-3, Antron-99 combo along with a couple other misc antennas on switches. I will be essentially SO2R, and low power. See you then. And as for the sour grapes I saw whine through here earlier...I ignore them...CAVE people again (Constantly Against Virtually Everything). Keep up the good ideas and such. 73.

Dave...N9TTX

[KG4ODQ]

Hey, here is a good idea...go ahead and use ECHOLINK. It works all the time, no matter where the sunspot cycle is headed....hehehe.

KG4ODQ

[ve2th]

Hi! Very good idea to have a 10 meter propagation logger, i'm waiting that for long time, as we have one on 6 meters and it s very useful believe me. I'm a 10/6 meters enthusiasm for over 40 years, and have a lot of material to share with the 10 meter community.
I monitor beacons everyday to see what s going on, and would be fun to post it to help others more southerly that propagation is again up here. I'm in the process to install one next year (after cold winter months Hi!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So keep on the good work and I'm sure it will work very nicely, anyway you have all my collaboration, as I will post very often all kinds of signals I should hear.

All the very best, good luck, and let me know of any progress,

73 Mike VE2TH FN46HT

[nl777xm2]

The map thing you're dreaming of is already a reality.
Check out------> http://go.to/BEACONet
-NL7XM

[vk4xjb]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the air,and THEN get on microwaves. #In only one year, the actual activity level on microwaves dropped like a rock. #Nobody would actually turn on the microwave gear unless they could identify, on two meter FM, that someone else was going to be on the air.

There is a risk that this could happen with 10 also.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This make me think of people attitudes towards 10m now. It is not that hard to find people that won't even check 10m because they think it dead. Either because some program has told them the muf is too low or they look at the time of year + where we are in the solar cycle and just declare the band dead. They need to be told it is open.

My favourite method is listen to the beacons, quick listen to 27MHz cb. If I hear anything from where I want to talk to I start calling 29.6.

I am having at look at the room from the original post in this thread. All that is happeing is the screen is filling with 'you must hit the reload button to see the latest conversation.' messages. My preference would be something like irc or even irc.

One problem I see with something like this is the people who don't have computers near their radios or like me would have to turn the computer because of the interference from the computer.

[wa4bwo]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Hey, I,m there with ya. I just posted and I think it's great. Hope to see more of you all on the board. Got it on my favorites and lets see what we can do with 10 m in the slump!

[K4VU]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wa4bwo @ Dec. 17 2003,12:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Hey, I,m there with ya. I just posted and I think it's great. Hope to see more of you all on the board. Got it on my favorites and lets see what we can do with 10 m in the slump![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
hmm.... to avoid having to refresh the page, just put a little javascript in their to do a timed refresh. check out www.w3schools.org for some javascript samples.

good idea, but i'd prolly take it a couple of steps more down the path (if there's time to do the coding):

+ someone mentioned a map and packetcluster nets. i'd merge the world map and packetcluster. but have the system telnet to a few of the active ones, pick up the spot data, parse it and throw it into mysql. then some general long/lat lookups, do the calculations and draw the spot on the map.

+ use flash to draw the spots in realtime, or just use javascript to refresh the page every now and then. to save bandwidth, meybe cache the spots on the client side where so you don't have to do a full dump each time.

+ have it customizable so that a user can eliminate any bands they're not interested in.

++ one more step would be to somehow work in weather activity. havest the wx data, do some corelational statistics between openings and the weather. then with that data, see if you could work out a method for predicting Es and tropo openings on the higher bands.

yeah, this would take a little work, but it would be very, very kewl.

73/robin/k4vu
slinging php as we speak

This is a good idea, but I already use HamHQ.org and the real-time site on that site. It is not limited to 10 meters, and shows who's on and which frequency. Also has a chat mode so you can talk to the person and try to find a freq. that works. - Sidney KC0OSB