NREN

[W4DLZ]

+ THE NATIONAL RADIO EMERGENCY NETWORK -

#National Radio Emergency Network (NREN) is designed to provide
a 24-hour emergency communications capability for fixed, portable, or
mobile stations. #

In particular, NREN is designed to facilitate quick
and efficient message delivery at times when scheduled nets are not
in session or when traffic must quickly flow outside the service area of a
scheduled net, such as during an emergency operation.
#
The purpose of NREN is to provide quick message delivery and
origination links between High Frequency equipped radio operators and such
resources as the Internet, public switched telephone network, and related
systems.

NREN facilities may also be utilized to establish point-to-point
circuits between NTS networks operating at the Section level when delays
may not be tolerated.

#Agencies supported by NREN may include Federal, State, and
local emergency management agencies, SATERN organizations, local
Amateur Radio Emergency Service (ARES)/Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service
(RACES) programs, as well as individual radio amateurs.

#NREN is an ideal resource for backcountry hikers and
outdoorsmen located in areas not served by local telephone or cellular service.

#Message traffic originated and transmitted via NREN shall be in the
standard NTS message format. #This format is universal amongst a wide
variety of public service organizations. #It also provides a
number of essential components, which promote accuracy and the efficient
servicing of message traffic.

Additional information on NTS message format, along with general
operating procedures may be found in ARRL publication FSD-212
(the "pink card"), the ARRL Net Directory, or the Michigan Net Public
Service Communications Handbook, or the ARRL on-line Emergency
Communications Courses. #Samples NTS message formats are provided
elsewhere in this document.
#
NREN operates on the time-tested principle of a "radio watch."

NREN members monitor one of two High Frequency channels listening for
any appropriate traffic or requests to establish communications.
These HF channels have been selected to provide reasonable coverage under
varying propagation conditions during both day and nighttime conditions.
#
NREN participants are encouraged to monitor the selected
frequencies while engaged in everyday activities. #A spare communications
receiver of older vintage can be easily pressed into service to serve this
purpose.

Radiotelegraphy, or "CW" has been selected as the basic
operating mode for NREN. #This choice was made for a variety of reasons:
#. CW is ideal for maintaining watch on a specific frequency.
Its narrow bandwidth allows those stations monitoring a selected frequency
to eliminate adjacent channel interference to a degree not possible
with voice or digital modes.
#. CW is ideal for portable operation. #This mode permits
extended operation with low-power battery operated equipment. #
The narrow bandwidth nature of the mode is such that accurate and effective
communications can be maintained at power levels far below those required for voice
mode.
#. CW is universally available on all equipment manufactured for use in
the HF spectrum. #In addition, because this mode does not require
the use of a computer or terminal, it is ideal for emergency or portable
field deployment.

#Once communications is established on the NREN calling and
emergency frequencies, users of the program may request "QSY" to a
frequency supporting an alternate mode, such as SSB. #However, this should
only be done if conditions support the proposed mode.
#Full break-in (QSK) CW procedures are encouraged, but not
required. #This capability will limit interference and prevent unintended "dual
transmissions" on the net frequency. #It also facilitates quick error
correction when exchanging message traffic. #While full break-in is
encouraged, it is not mandatory for participation in NREN.
#QNY Procedures Once contact is established, stations with
significant quantities of messages should move off-frequency to clear this
traffic.
This will keep NREN channels open for additional traffic or
emergency information. #In other words, if you must clear one or two
messages, feel free to stay on net frequency. #If you have a number of messages,
or require the establishment of a point-to-point circuit, establish
contact on an alternate frequency.

The NREN Watch Frequencies are:
#40-Meters: # # #7068 kHz
#30-Meters: # # #10122 kHz

#In the event that a QSO is active on frequency, stations holding traffic
should minimize interference to existing communications by quickly
establishing contact and moving off frequency. #In order to facilitate
interoperability between multiple stations, adjacent channels should be
selected based on the "rule of 3." #That is, move up or down first 3, then
6, 9, or 12 kHz from the primary channel. #This same rule applies to
traffic exchange off frequency. #This will permit other NREN stations to
locate existing exchanges.
#In order to establish contact with an NREN member, simply
transmit the "NREN" general net call, followed by your call sign. #This
procedure is identical to that utilized to establish contact on a schedule.
For example:

NREN NREN NREN de K8QMN #K

#One may also list the traffic being held by state and/or call
sign when transmitting the initial call. #For example:

NREN NREN NREN de K8QMN QTC 1 P MI #K

#Continue until a reply is heard from an NREN member, at which
time you may list your traffic if you haven't already done so. #The NREN
member will then indicate that he/she is ready to copy. #For example:

K8QMN de W8IHX QRV #K

#Proceed with the transmission of your message, indicating if
you have QSK (full break-in) capability.
#Once the traffic is acknowledged as having been received in its
entirety, the transaction is completed and the frequency is available
for others.
#For complete information on message handling procedures, please
review the Michigan Net Public Service Communications Handbook
chapter entitled
"Radiotelegraph Net Procedures."
#NREN members are reminded to avoid utilizing extremely narrow
CW filters. These filters may result in missed calls from stations that are
slightly off frequency.
#The NREN frequency may be monitored even if such QSX broadcasts
are not heard at the appropriate times. #Operators may be otherwise
engaged or experiencing interference at their location, which precludes a
QSX broadcast.
#If one wishes to engage an NREN station in a brief QSO, please
move off frequency utilizing the "rule of 3." #Simple call the desired
station and indicate "QIC up 3, 6, 9, etc."
#NREN website: http://68.43.101.30:81/nren/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
EDITOR'S COMMENT: #A 20M frequency is being considered. #14.050
MHz has
been suggested.
================================================== ===============
========

73,
Ed, N7NVP

[vk2bvs]

What a fantastic idea.
This is a great practical use for morse code (CW).
This is what will encourage no code and existing ham interest in CW.
To know that when all else fails you can call the NREN watched channels on morse code and then go to an SSB voice frequency if conditions are good enough is a great way to encourage the CW skill at a time when it is or will be no longer examined.
With thousands of new hams coming it will be the knowledge that groups like the NREN are accessible to all 24 hours a day that will strengthen the value to know and want to know CW in the 21st century.

Well done NREN,
...Sam VK2BVS in Sydney, Australia

[k9zmd]

For those interested in learning more about NREN, be aware that the NREN web site has a link on it to the Michigan net, QMN. #That link didn't work with my browser, but this one did: #www.qsl.net/w8ihx (www.qsl.net/w8ihx).

Without addressing the merit of the idea, I'd like to ask if there is there any national organization or agency sponsoring NREN. #If so, I've missed their announcement. #If not, I'd be interested in learning what organizations or agencies have been approached with the idea, and the current status of the proposal. #

Absent any national sponsorship, this idea will only prosper by popular acclaim, something that using only CW on CW-only frequencies is unlikely to muster. #Bring in the mainstream by also monitoring a specific phone frequency on each band. #Nothing bars the use of CW to attract the attention of the NREN monitoring stations. #In an emergency, even the CW impaired could attract attention with a gibberish combination of carrier interruptions, and alert the monitoring stations to expect a message on SSB rather than CW. #

Normal SSB conversations on & around the monitored frequency would be unaffected by rare & brief CW exchanges (DSP notches out far worse than that with sublime ease), and stations monitoring for CW can use tight filters to exclude most of the voice transmissions.

Gary, K9ZMD
Palmdale, CA

[W1CAR]

I'm having a problem with the idea that CW HF frequencies will be usable by backcountry hikers and the like. I carry a 2/440 FM ht along with me whenever I go... not much room for even a QRP HF rig, roll-out dipole, a CW key, and a decent size power source to run it all.

Good idea to keep CW going and all.. but don't we already have enough emergency-type organizations out there?

I know I personally can't keep track of them all... lol

[trooper]

I was waiting for someone to shoot holes in this . . . (Where's that good ol' QRZ/eHam Spirit of negativity?) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Let us know where the NREN information site is. If you would like, I will host it at no charge, as long as it is maintained. Please let me know. (Mycall@ARRL.net)

There are major gaps in ARES, RACES and other 'established emergency nets' - There is also a great deal of ‘tree-marking’ among the dogs that participate in them. It’s typical infighting and elitism that kills all but the most organized and established groups. (Save your bullets, these are great organizations- however many areas exist where this is true.)

I like the seemingly informal nature of NREN, and the open, 'always active' concept. It could be very well expanded to local 6/V/U cells and another favorite of mine- Packet & APRS. These "old boring modes", like CW to some, are still every bit as reliable, and work where others fail. NREN kinda' reminds me of the old CH-9 groups back east, and another "Unofficial sort of net" called REACT- that uses 462.675 GMRS as the primary calling channel. I did some looking around on each of these groups and found very little activity, and many abandoned sites. It isn't the 1970's anymore -- everyone has a cell phone. More devastating- Most have little if any aspiration to participate in something that could benefit the public (or the indirect 'them'http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

NREN could be the answer- the thread that mends other informal nets together. Think about the survivability- Everyone has a role: HF/CW, General Amateur, FRS/GMRS ‘consumers’, 11-Meter public . . . And with the Internet and cellular, each of these groups could tie-in and hold weave quite a fabric of reliability. Just a little here and a little there- NREN could be the first sapling in the forest . . . Let me know if I can help. It sounds very exciting.

Loren B. Cobb / KD7PLU
Glendale, Arizona DM-33

[kr4wm]

At the risk of sounding like a total jerk- my opinion
is that it looks like yet another person has become
disenfranchised with ARES/RACES and decided to go
their own way. I'm sure you (or your group) has good
intentions, but do we really need ANOTHER emergency
service bunch? Ones I can name right off hand are:

ARES
RACES
SATERN
REACT (Yes, they have an amateur branch)
I think the K1MAN bunch has a group
Midland-1 (FRS)
I'm sure there are others I'm unaware of

Admittedly, this "new" group has the panache to use
CW over HF, which I think is great, but I know darned
few folks who pack a portable HF set (I do, but I'm
probably the exception). And it will take much time to
build the infrastructure so that you have 24hr monitoring
capabilities in all areas of the U.S., much less any larger
area. Were I to instigate some new confederation of
frequency monitors, I believe I would start on local
repeater frequencies where there is an availability of common equipment and a larger populus to participate.
Purposefully shrinking your audience by using only CW and HF, you draw questions about your sincerety. Of course it will be unique and show off the capabilities
of the frequencies and modes you have chosen!

At this point I must put in a plug for my own favorite group- the Intercon Net and the Maritime Mobile Service Network, who will be happy to take emergency traffic from ANYONE during their hours of operation- all day long from about 9AM until 10PM EST on 14.300MHz USB.

Whoever you are, I wish you the best of luck! I hope you
come back in five years and give us a report on how your
organization is doing!

[KC0KBG]

Now, let me see would a RockMite with five pairs of switchable crystals make a good monitor tranciever? It would be cheap, about $60, easy on the batteries and portable.

[kb9qpm]

Greetings;

There are already a number of Emergency Communications, (EMCOMM or ECOM), systems active, some of which have been listed in replies here. There is one which I did not see, and that is MARS, the Military Affiliate Radio System, which maintains a 24/7 watch nationally. There are three MARS orginizations, Army, Navy-Marine Corps and Air Force, all operating under the Department Of the Military, (DOMS at the Pentigon), and the Department of Homeland Security. (DHS). MARS is open to ALL U.S. Amateurs, (at least a Technician, and code is NOT required!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, and posessions. Since MARS operates BETWEEN the Ham bands, on frequencies between 2 and 30 MHz, (plus some frequencies near the 2 Meter Ham band), we do not have the problems with QRM that plague the Ham service orginizations. If interested, just do a search in any of the search engines for MARS or Email me at kb9qpm@arrl.org.
73 and seasons greetings
DE Ivy, KB9QPM http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k4iii]

Got a problem working with others? Is there no emergency orgs already out there, whats ARES, RACES, and REACT, RED CROSS, SATERN, etc...! Those who wish to join in emergency communications will and those who won't unless you give money to them! And whats you're group gonna do if someone is in trouble and can't send clean code or something, forget them? You expect to be paid or something? You'd be better off registering with the govt as a border patrol operator and volunteer your services there.

Perhaps you should start or join one of these already ARRL supported groups to make a difference... If you want to start creating bandplans and operating proceedure, get a job with the FCC.

(MY opinion)

[k4iii]

Oh, by the way, you could also get a satellite phone that would work (unless you're in an underground mine)

The packing and use is simple. Push on, then dial. And it is handy for a non-life threatening emergency as well while fitting in your pocket without having to spend 20 minutes stringing a dipole or setting up a cw key and tuner. And if you really are into CW and you're emergency allows you to "think about what mode you'd actually enjoy more" you could always call 911 and send your message in CW using the DTMF keys!

HiHi.

[W1CAR]

Personally, guys.. I'd feel safer knowing that at least one person per 20 sq. miles was monitoring .52, .55., or .58 on 2m simplex... where more people have the capability to use and get in contact with stations who could help them.

I think the existing Ecomm infrastructure works fine the way it is, but it should be strengthened and built up, instead of finding other options and concentrating manpower in other ways.

[KD7WHQ]

K4III aside, I think this a great addition to the emergency comm network.

ARS/RACES is fine, but until activated, they are just hams doing what hams do on a day to day basis.

This, and MARS, is a 24/7 network, ready to take traffic from anyone, including ARS, RACES, and any other "on call" ECS, or anyone at all for that matter.

Or, is there any real displeasure in having a "plug in" HF net for emergency services? Notes please.

Remember, ARS/RACES is typically 2m and 70cm with a bit of HF, and look at the potential of having an already established HF net to pass traffic to, with plenty of practice.

Kudos!

[AE6IP]

I have no problem with NREN, but I do wonder why the energy isn't going into strengthening the ARRL's National Traffic System, rather than adding yet another confusing source of information.

Not that NTS is doing all that well these days.

[ab4kx]

I think this is an excellent idea, more so because of its apparent simplicity. What could be easier? #The choice of frequencies is excellent, and the mode is perfect. #
I think there a place for this method of traffic handling, especially when one is out of reach of the internet, cell towers, repeaters and one just doesn't have a satellite phone handy. Everyone who keeps a satellite phone handy please raise your hand. #Hmmm. #I don't see many hands. #
I guess neither sophisticated attacks on our infrastructure nor natural disasters are #possible and we will always have our trillion dollar networks up and running?
From what I've read, NREN has the potential to be the least equipment and administration intensive of all the various systems. #
Thanks.

[WA2ZDY]

Time to break out those mothballed autoalarm receivers, get them from 500 KHz and onto the NREN frequencies.

Ok ok, I actually like this idea. #I don't know if it's the BEST idea, and in fact have serious doubts about it working. #But it has merit. #It will depend on enough folks knowing about it and more importantly CARING enough to make it work.

I will say this about the use of HF only. #KR4WM is right. #Not many pack HF gear away from home. #I used to, but my HW-7 is long gone (speaking of a perfect rig for this!) #The use of HF CW for this will likely be what kills it if it doesn't fly. #Sad to say, but getting enough folks to listen to a CW frequency full of noise just isn't likely. #Again, the existing systems we have are being left for lack of care, I can't see a new one, especially one based on CW, flying in this age.

I like it, I just don't have high hopes it'll work well enough to keep enough attention to keep it effective.

[W1CAR]

when I'm out of reach of common communications like cell phones and sat phones and the internet, and I need help, I won't be thinking about passing a piece of formal written traffic in CW to a monitoring HF station that may or may not be able to hear me when I key up.

I'm going to be saying "Help!!" or "Help me!" or "I need help!!" or even a "MayDay" on the first repeater or simplex frequency I can find someone to hear me. Mainly because it's practical to carry this equipment with me no matter where I'm at; as opposed to making sure I have all the components including a rather expensive portable HF rig and CW key.

Truthfully, in keeping the communications lines open... this is a help. In keeping more operators monitoring certain frequencies... this is a great idea. But honestly, I haven't once needed any other reason to use any other method than the NTS nets to get my traffic sent wherever I've needed it; anywhere in the world. When emergency strikes, emergency nets are activated that set aside certain frequencies (empowered by the FCC) for the purpose of passing emergency and time-sensitive traffic. In a non-emergency, the NTS and other similar nets operate daily. I can get the message through via any number of options; whether the VSBN, VLN, 4th Region, or EAN... or even the Intercon if needed.

I'm not trying to -.-. .-. .- .--. on this idea... just offering another viewpoint. Bottom line you're going to do what you want to do regardless of what is said here...so more power to you and the rest of the NREN.


...-.-

[wb5yiw]

It seems that there are folks in every aspect of this hobby that want to run to one extreme or the other. There are those who want to make NREN be "the" way to handle emergency communications, and then there are the "nay-sayers" that want nothing to do with it. Then there are a few folks in between. I guess it's that way with everything.

Ok, not everyone will pack hf into the back country, but a few will. Some run hf mobile in jeeps and trucks and such. I carry one in my 4wd truck most of the time. Do I run cw mobile? No. never have, don't really intend to. I also carry 2 meters and UHF. But you know what? There are parts of this country where no one is going to hear you on those bands. If I'm going to the back country, while I may not have the radio in my pack, I won't be more than a few hours hike away from my truck and that radio will be there. But laying that aside, I also have news for all....if I have a life threatening emergency, I'm not gonna care what mode or frequency I'm on! I'm going to tune around till I find someone and then do everything I can to get thier attention. I'm not going to sit on some freqency calling and callling just hoping that the person who's turn it is to monitor the emergency frequency bothered to show up. Real world situations, folks. Think about it.

Now, let's say that some big natural or manmade disaster has come along. The cell phone and landline network is out, power is off, chaos runs rampant. By the way, most people don't realize that if the landline phone system is out, thier cell phones won't work either. They won't talk phone to phone, not even Nextel's walkie talkie thing works if the cell towers are down! So what do we do? Ham radio of course. The procedures are time tested and already in place, so there's no need to go back over them. I've said all that to say this, what would be wrong with holding these frequencies for use to pass administrative messages, or any other use as far as that goes.

Instead of bitching about "yet another emergency group", why not find a way to use it constructively?

Come on guys, you can get on and talk about the game after the disaster or whatever has passed.

73's

Bryan WB5YIW

[kb9num]

I have been thinking that one of the new QRP rigs on CW makes an ideal jump kit HF rig, but only if there is someone to hear you. Now perhaps there will be some one listening. I think it is an idea with merit. Time to dust off the key and practice a little. And I know what to ask Santa to leave under the tree<vbg>.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb5yiw @ Nov. 30 2003,08:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are the "nay-sayers" that want nothing to do with it.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Just to be clear: I'm not one of the nay-sayers. I just believe that direct cooperation with existing EMCOMM such as NTS would make NREN stronger.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
There are parts of this country where no one is going to hear you on those bands.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

There are parts of this country where no one is going to hear you. Some of them are among my favorite places.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If I'm going to the back country, while I may not have the radio in my pack, I won't be more than a few hours hike away from my truck and that radio will be there. But laying that aside, I also have news for all....if I have a life threatening emergency, I'm not gonna care what mode or frequency I'm on! #I'm going to tune around till I find someone and then do everything I can to get thier attention. I'm not going to sit on some freqency calling and callling just hoping that the person who's turn it is to monitor the emergency frequency bothered to show up. Real world situations, folks. #Think about it. #
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

As long as we're talking real world situations, if you're a few hours hike from your truck and a life threatening emergency comes up, the odds are that it's one that you're going to have to deal with without being able to make that few hour hike.

My advice: less electronics, more first aid gear.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Now, let's say that some big natural or manmade disaster has come along. #The cell phone and landline network is out, power is off, chaos runs rampant.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Any guess when the last time that the landline network went out, other than in isolated areas, was?

Any guess what it would take to take the landline network out over a widespread area?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
So what do we do? #Ham radio of course.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The US telphone system handles in excess of 27 billion phone calls a day. The biggest threat to this system in a major emergency is not that it will fail, but rather that it will overload. As long as we're talking real situations, how, precisely, are you going to get 600,000 hams to handle a few billion extra phone calls?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Instead of bitching about "yet another emergency group", why not find a way to use it constructively?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I reiterate: it would be more constructive for this system to be part of a cooperative system, rather than that it exist in a vacuum.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Come on guys, you can get on and talk about the game after the disaster or whatever has passed.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

A key rule of emergency communications: If you've planned for it, it's not an emergency.

Hard to plan if you don't talk it through before the "whatever".

[wb5yiw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As long as we're talking real world situations, if you're a few hours hike from your truck and a life threatening emergency comes up, the odds are that it's one that you're going to have to deal with without being able to make that few hour hike.

My advice: less electronics, more first aid gear.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

No argument there, but at some point you are going to have to get help from somewhere. After the life threatening part has passed, that hike will have to be made. Chances are that the person will involved will not be up to that hike, and you may not be able to drive back to where he is. #Radio may be the only means to summon assistance.


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Any guess when the last time that the landline network went out, other than in isolated areas, was?

Any guess what it would take to take the landline network out over a widespread area?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Am I the only one that remembers Hurricane Andrew? #Phones were out in south Florida for weeks. I handled dozens of H&W messages and a few pieces of emergency traffic during those days simply acting as a relay station. #Even in places where the system itself had not failed, there simply were no instruments at the end of the line for someone to use! #Cell phones can't connect if the towers are wadded up and/or scattered over half the county. #Granted, Andrew sized storms don't come along very often, but they play havoc when they do.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The US telphone system handles in excess of 27 billion phone calls a day. #The biggest threat to this system in a major emergency is not that it will fail, but rather that it will overload. #As long as we're talking real situations, how, precisely, are you going to get 600,000 hams to handle a few billion extra phone calls?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

In the first place, a disaster that idles the entire phone network will be on a scale that could possibly end life as we know it anyway. #If that happens, there won't be 600,000 hams. #There may not be 600,000 people left.

But I do agree with you on one point. An overload is the biggest threat. #When the Oklahoma City bombing happened, it took less than a minute for the landline phone system in and around OKC to lock up and it stayed that way for 3 days. #

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I reiterate: it would be more constructive for this system to be part of a cooperative system, rather than that it exist in a vacuum.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Isnt' that what I said? #Let's find a way to include it!

73's

Bryan #WB5YIW

[AE6IP]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb5yiw @ Nov. 30 2003,16http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No argument there, but at some point you are going to have to get help from somewhere. After the life threatening part has passed, that hike will have to be made. Chances are that the person will involved will not be up to that hike, and you may not be able to drive back to where he is. #Radio may be the only means to summon assistance.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Am I the only one that remembers Hurricane Andrew? #Phones were out in south Florida for weeks.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Did not know that. Never could understand why people live in hurricane land when they could live someplace safe like California. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
In the first place, a disaster that idles the entire phone network will be on a scale that could possibly end life as we know it anyway. #If that happens, there won't be 600,000 hams. #There may not be 600,000 people left.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed. But here's the gotcha on that. If you lose phone service in a rural area, it's not a big deal because rural people are used to dealing without it. If you lose phone service in an urban area, the traffic that can't be passed is going to be on the order of 6 orders of magnitude greater than the entire amateur community could handle in that time period.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
But I do agree with you on one point. An overload is the biggest threat. #When the Oklahoma City bombing happened, it took less than a minute for the landline phone system in and around OKC to lock up and it stayed that way for 3 days. #
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

When we had the Loma Prieta earthquake here, there was a bit of disruption, mostly due to downed phone lines. Other than in isolated areas, the entire phone system was back up to normal within 24 hours.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I reiterate: it would be more constructive for this system to be part of a cooperative system, rather than that it exist in a vacuum.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Isnt' that what I said? #Let's find a way to include it!

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it is. I think that we're in violent agreement on this.

Marty

[wb5yiw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But here's the gotcha on that. #If you lose phone service in a rural area, it's not a big deal because rural people are used to dealing without it. #If you lose phone service in an urban area, the traffic that can't be passed is going to be on the order of 6 orders of magnitude greater than the entire amateur community could handle in that time period.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, all I can say is that we all will have to do the best we can to sort out the time sensitive (make that high priority) messages from the ones that can wait. #A simple, "Hi, How are ya? #Heard about the earthquake. Call if you need anything" can wait, where a "send 8 pints of o negative to Thus-and-so Hospital" needs to go now, and a "please tell me how my stocks are doing" can go in the trash can.

You can't ever do it all. #All you can hope for is that you do your best, and that the effort as a whole will be enough.

73

Bryan

[k4iii]

Clarification on why I am a skeptic of these plans as of now... However, just for the record, I am a serious emergency comm ham down here in hurricane-prone FL and am involved with all the emergency org's.

(Perhaps this can be made to work and I wish all of you for the new group luck and hope you become involved as well!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The only place where I see this working is locally when ARES/RACES isn't viable or has problems and/or there is a select few hams that have special licenses and non-ham privledges such as doctors that can get together on a frequency to pass vital information such as heart rate, medical condition, etc...

Why not work?

1. You can prepare for an emergency as for operating modes and frequencies and groups? I don't think I saw any ham "psychic ads" of the TV lately. Please refresh my memory...

2. Satellite Phone. If you are in a location without any communications and know only a satellite phone will work and you plan to climb Mt Everest or something, don't go without one! If you are stupid to go out 50+ miles on a boat without a Marine radio and expect your dog to bark loud enough to summon the Coast Guard, I have no sympathy for you and you shouldn't be licensed to even board a marine vessel! The same goes for mountaineering, hunting, hiking, RVing, and any other exercise or event out there where you feel emergency communications is a must (to clarify for all who think they are special)!

3. OK, your Dog isn't summoning the CG, now you simply happen to find an extra CW key and HF QRP rig and antenna in the mini-fridge to summon for help? OK maybe by one person in the whole world a year might have this "freakish" occurrance... I remember something about a boat pirating a few years ago like this... But can you contact someone quickly and locally who can help via HF & CW?

4. If, lets say the "big one" hits, and you are at ground zero AND survive unhurt AND have your ham equipment works properly, I would hope you would first ensure you are not a threat or target yourself and reach safety and help anyone in any immediate threat by "civilian" means unless you are an authorized emergency supplier such as ambulance worker or doctor!

5. Within a few minutes to hours, the local county state and Govt will step in and clear the area. Only county officers and crews will be out and unless you are working with RACES or ARES under your county and are asked to assist, you will be sent home or to assist at a shelter or distribution center.

6. Why will the Govt show up? Even with Cells down and every phone line busy? You know that thing called a satellite? It can probably be accessed from any online access terminal with the correct codes and can even be accessed overseas to show a picture of the area strong enough to make out street sign names and perhaps quarters on the street!

7. Within that hour unless you are certified by another agency or are licensed to perform emergency services on people, liability and danger is something serious that shouldn't be second-guessed.

8. After sending any short-term traffic (Usually locally if local communications channels are available because Red Cross and hospital communications are needed first, they won't fly people to the other half of the country usually) You hopefully are thanked for standing by

9. The FCC specifies a frequency set aside as the disaster channel for specific emergency communications. Usually there are people trained to handle communications and unless you wish to separate the emergency capabilities of the service and make an attempt to duplicate the operation, you are not helping...

10. Then depending on what emergency organization you are part of, you can step in and either man shelters if with the Red Cross, distribute food and supplies with the Salvation Army, and assist with linking county communications like with ARES/RACES, or provide whatever service the organization you are affiliated with supplies and that is all!

THAT IS ABOUT ALL YOU CAN BE INVOLVED WITH UNLESS YOU ARE A POLICE OFFICER or GOVT EMPLOYEE WHO HANDLES EMERGENCIES!

11. Frequencies are not ASSIGNED. The ARRL Suggests different operations on different bands and the FCC assigns modes. Anyone could use your frequency for a basic QSO in CW or voice depending on the frequency you say you will choose. Although they should stop when an emergency call is placed...

12. Talk about the Internet being prone to viruses, what if one person with a 10kW linear keeps keying up during the passage of emergency traffic as someone cited did by the FCC in the last enforcement actions? The whole organization's purpose is doomed and you cannot do what you plan to do!

13. Most standard emergencies can, will and should be handled by paid law enforcement. I pay their salaries and they do their job. We can assist, but shouldn't become involved unless asked to specifically and in a non-hazardous way. Only a single call needs to be sent, and not 10,000 hams checking in.

14. The last thing we need is some happy cop-wanna-be's chasing and getting frantic over some "standard" emergency like a car accident.

15. The ARRLs plans for better communications isn't frequencies, operating modes, or organziations, but rather certain on-hand training and message handling (which you've mentioned,+++ GOOD!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The CERT and training courses the Red Cross and ARRL is offering would probably be a greater asset because we know most hams can key a mic or use a radio already.

16. Most hams will use their ham gear to "ham it up" rather than simply to monitor a set frequency for emergency traffic.

17. Any ham breaking in with emergency traffic is already given priority during any QSO. Unless the ham operators of today have become to rude to assist, I don't see why a separate organization needs to be started rather than simply following General Goodwill and standard Amateur Guidelines.

18. With echolink and other technologies nowadays, repeaters can link up and connect to any major city by linking repeater to repeater and online in another state. Also, traffic can be directed and controlled based on location and assistance availability...

19. I fail to see an emergency as being a method to get more hams on the airwaves. Flip this around. If the person happens to be a ham and has the radio on, then an emergency call can and usually will be made.

20. Emergencies should never be the sole reason to get a ham ticket. You have to like and be somewhat knowledgable with communications in general to be active. If someone is inactive normally, creating an emergency channel and/or organization won't bring everyone out from the dark!

21. Also, each county and community responds to emergencies differently. Sometimes an area doesn't need "world-wide" communications! The last thing I'd want to hear is someone thinking he is being stalked and every 20 seconds calling break break for assistance walking down the street in front of a police dept because a loose dog is barking. (not that this would or will happen, but it could...)

The Practice aspect is good and perhaps some newer methods of traffic handling could be created to try to persuade the ARRL to adjust and perhaps adopt more worthwhile standards. If this happens through your organization, I applaud you and those involved!

Keep me posted...

[wb5yiw]

Well, let's just all mail our tickets back in and forget it. Our government will take care of us!!!

[W9WHE]

Is this some type of joke?

"NREN is an ideal resource for backcountry hikers and
outdoorsmen located in areas not served by local telephone or cellular service"

"NREN has chosen CW as its mode...."

As a backcountry hiker, I can tell you that these statements are just plain crazy!! Do you really think that people hiking at 10,000 feet are likely to carry a FT-817, gel cell battery, antenna and key? AND rely for their safety on these guys? Nope. What if it is the ham that is injured and unable to send CW?

Backcountry hikers bring along an HT programmed with local Ham frequencies AND (for true emergencies only under 47 CFR 97.403 & 97.405) the frequencies of the Park Rangers, State, County & local police, local fire and Aid channel.

Anybody that thinks that CW is an appropriate mode for backcountry hikers is either: 1) propigating a "hoax"; or 2) is just plain crazy.

[n5wsu]

It sound to me,, Like a whole lot of lip service.

[WA3KYY]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Nov. 30 2003,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no problem with NREN, but I do wonder why the energy isn't going into strengthening the ARRL's National Traffic System, rather than adding yet another confusing source of information.

Not that NTS is doing all that well these days.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If you read the fine print, this is a supplement to the NTS phone and CW nets to serve the immediate needs to pass non-local traffic when the NTS nets are not functioning. If an emergency develops that is prolonged then the local NTS or emergency net is activated and traffic shifts there. It also appears to me that NREN is not designed to be the place to report emergencies that the local repeater could handle.

As to the current state of the NTS, I think the Internet, and more specificaly, email, has been the major force in its decline.

73,
Mike WA3KYY

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WA3KYY @ Dec. 01 2003,10:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Nov. 30 2003,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no problem with NREN, but I do wonder why the energy isn't going into strengthening the ARRL's National Traffic System, rather than adding yet another confusing source of information.

Not that NTS is doing all that well these days.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If you read the fine print, this is a supplement to the NTS phone and CW nets to serve the immediate needs to pass non-local traffic when the NTS nets are not functioning. If an emergency develops that is prolonged then the local NTS or emergency net is activated and traffic shifts there. It also appears to me that NREN is not designed to be the place to report emergencies that the local repeater could handle.

As to the current state of the NTS, I think the Internet, and more specificaly, email, has been the major force in its decline.

73,
Mike WA3KYY[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I certainly agree with that! Once again progress has made something virtually extinct, in this case, amateur radio traffic nets. "Traffic" today on most nets consists of "Tell Joe that Andy checked in late," and that's a "message." It is a means of maintaining a dying tradition (yeah, like CW) that has been superceded by email and the web.

The days when hams could set up in the shopping center and pass "Happy Mother's Day" radiograms are long gone. Every kid in America can do the same on his own with his PDA. If you monitor SATERN during emergencies, you'll hear them referring you to the internet. If you monitor ANY emergency net, you'll hear almost no H&W traffic. The few exceptions are about once or twice a month something nasty occurs at sea and the Maritime Mobile Service Net is called upon to notify the Coast Guard (like last weekend when someone received a "man overboard" alarm. Or like over a year ago when pirates attacked a family at sea.)

In localized emergencies, most of the time local government agencies are better equipped technically and better trained to do the job and hams with wanna-be-cop attitudes get in the way. Not all the time, and we DO do some good in these areas.

But the NTS is pretty much a remnant of what it once was, and, as an old timer (BI: Before Internet) I regret its passing.

As to NERN, I'd like to see it work, if mainly for the above reasons; to bring ham radio back into the long haul traffic handling world. A touch of the past, if you will. But all too often ham radio plays a very minor part in disasters that could benefit from HF operations. I recall that during the last big earthquake in Mexico, volunteer aid from US hams was rejected. We were neither needed nor wanted, despite the fact the potential for handling H&W traffic to many Mexican relatives in the US seemed to me to be obvious. Apparently it wasn't.

I think we are trying to get an old horse to dance. We can love the old horse, but his days of dancing are about gone. Once upon a time hams were the guys with the mobile radios, who could get first strike operations at tornados, floods, hurricanes, fires, etc. County and state governments actually didn't have that capability. That is no longer true. They have far better and faster capabilities than we, from data and fax, to satellite, repeaters, VHF and UHF links, mobile computer terminals, microwave phone relay, generators at repeater sites, etc.

Well, I'm all for the old horse, but I don't want him to be my sole transportation out of the Devil's Den.

With that barrel of cold water on the idea, I actually like it! I'm not sure what good it will do, but it could promise to be at the minimum, a lot of fun. It could provide an alternate to the established nets, and it could preserve that other old gelding, with the broken legs, CW. Yeah, I sure hate to see ham radio replaced with the internet, but it has happened, so anything that keeps alive some of the traditions of history is fine with me.

Ed

[kb9num]

W5HTW said</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think we are trying to get an old horse to dance. We can love the old horse, but his days of dancing are about gone. Once upon a time hams were the guys with the mobile radios, who could get first strike operations at tornados, floods, hurricanes, fires, etc. County and state governments actually didn't have that capability. That is no longer true. They have far better and faster capabilities than we, from data and fax, to satellite, repeaters, VHF and UHF links, mobile computer terminals, microwave phone relay, generators at repeater sites, etc. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Several times in past years our local ARES chapter has provided communications for our sheriff's department after a backhoe cut through the lines for the dispatch center. Most of their mobil equipment worked but the phones didn't. We helped to fill the gap.

You also speak of the "cop wannabe" attitude of emcomm folks. I don't have the knowledge and experience to tar a whole bunch of people with that brush. Speaking for our area that characterization doesn't fit. I guess it is like the 2 meter/CB comparisons: must all depend on where you are.

My guess is that ARES/RACES isn't as dead as you seem to think. Sorry to hear of its demise in your area.

73

KB9NUM

[n0ov]

This was a great idea until you added the CW into the mix -- that debate has a tendancy to fire people up.

If CW is a requirement then I'm going to see if someone is willing to make a device to plug into my rig that is also hooked into a gps that can send my call, location and SOS in code. #

My code is very rusty and don't see it improving when I'm lost and under presure -- don't want to accidently send someone directions to Disney World FL when I need to be rescued in Disney Land, CA. (humor)

Personally -- if this helps one person out it's been a success

Go for it!

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WA3KYY @ Dec. 01 2003,10:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If you read the fine print, this is a supplement to the NTS phone and CW nets to serve the immediate needs to pass non-local traffic when the NTS nets are not functioning. #If an emergency develops that is prolonged then the local NTS or emergency net is activated and traffic shifts there. #It also appears to me that NREN is not designed to be the place to report emergencies that the local repeater could handle.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Read the fine print before posting. Still believe the remark I made is applicable.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
As to the current state of the NTS, I think the Internet, and more specificaly, email, has been the major force in its decline.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Could well be. Our ARRL section has a traffic manager who is trying to revive the NTS here. It is, shall we say, a painful process, unlikely of bearing fruit.

[K0RGR]

Hmmmm... I'm a little concerned about the choice of modes and frequncies. I like the idea of hams monitoring frequencies if we can do it, but I wonder how many will actually do it.

Does anybody still monitor for WESCARS, ECARS or MIDCARS? These were mobile service nets operating on 7255 and 7258 khz, primarily in the daytime. Perhaps we should see an effort to reinvigorate these nets, and set up the CW frequencies as an alternative. Also, the CW frequencies should be in the current Novice/Tech bands. If the FISTS proposal is adopted, that would allow all classes to participate.

No, I probably wouldn't haul my FT-817 up a 10,000 mountain, but I might bring an ultralight 2-watter and a dipole. That would be more in keeping with the mood of a Wilderness area than an HT.

[W9WHE]

The whole idea is premised upon the notion that the ham in the back country can send & copy CW. Huhhh?

1) Novice & Tech hams can't copy code;
2) If NCI has its way, no new hams will copy code;
3) Code skills of many Gen, Adv & Extras are iffy, at best!

So let me get this straight, about 1/2 of hams won't be able to communicate because their code skills are iffy, and the other 1/2 won't carry HF equipment, battery & antenna up 10,000 feet because without trees, the antenna will be 5 feet off the ground and ineffective.

Yea....this is going to work.

By the way, has anybody seen a roster for NREN? Or is is just another one of those internet facades?

[W9WHE]

For years, the "wilderness protocol" has been effect. When there is no repeater access, everybody monitors 146.52. Why change?

[WA3KYY]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Dec. 01 2003,17:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WA3KYY @ Dec. 01 2003,10:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If you read the fine print, this is a supplement to the NTS phone and CW nets to serve the immediate needs to pass non-local traffic when the NTS nets are not functioning. #If an emergency develops that is prolonged then the local NTS or emergency net is activated and traffic shifts there. #It also appears to me that NREN is not designed to be the place to report emergencies that the local repeater could handle.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Read the fine print before posting. #Still believe the remark I made is applicable.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
As to the current state of the NTS, I think the Internet, and more specificaly, email, has been the major force in its decline.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Could well be. Our ARRL section has a traffic manager who is trying to revive the NTS here. It is, shall we say, a painful process, unlikely of bearing fruit.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I did Marty, both in the annoucement and on the NREN web site (basically the same). #I guess we have differing interpretations of what was meant. #

Since NREN is being sponsored by the Michigan NTS net, QMN, I see this as strenghthening the NTS. #The procedures and message format are those of the NTS. #The NTS nets can serve as training for the NREN operations which do not appear to have regularlly #scheduled operations or training sessions (yet). #Perhaps the ideal place to recruit watch stations is from the current crop of NTS ops. #I doubt we will ever see the NTS nets with a similar watch operation. #It would also be an excellent idea to suggest all potential NREN watch stations participate in their local NTS CW net.

Here in the Washington, DC area, the NTS nets are still going reasonably well. #I occasionally monitor the local VHF final delivery nets and there are always a few pieces of traffic. #MDC section has three NTS nets that are active daily:

MEPN (Maryland Emergancy Phone Net) #3920 6:00pm local
MDD (Maryland-DC-Delaware Net) 3643 7:00pm & 10:00pm local
MSN (Maryland Slow Net) 3717 7:30pm local

There are liasons to the local nets and to the regional and area nets. #The Section Emergancy Plan shows how all the nets fit together and how nets can be activated by the SEC as needed. #But none of these have the radio watch function of the proposed NREN.

73,
Mike

[WA3KYY]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K0RGR @ Dec. 01 2003,18:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does anybody still monitor for WESCARS, ECARS or MIDCARS? #These were mobile service nets operating on 7255 and 7258 khz, primarily in the daytime. Perhaps we should see an effort to reinvigorate these nets, and set up the CW frequencies as an alternative. Also, the CW frequencies should be in the current Novice/Tech bands. If the FISTS proposal is adopted, that would allow all classes to participate.

No, I probably wouldn't haul my FT-817 up a 10,000 mountain, but I might bring an ultralight 2-watter and a dipole. That would be more in keeping with the mood of a Wilderness area than an HT.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Both MIDCARS and ECARS are fully active. I checked into both last summer while camping at Greenbrier State Park in Maryland. Several members of our local club check in while commuting and the group that went to Dayton checked into both on their trip.


For an ultra light rig to take with you, try the Elecraft KX1. It's 3"X5", covers 40-30-20, has an optional ATU and keyer paddle. Puts out 2-3W on the internal batteries.

seeElecraft Inovative Electronic Kits (http://www.elecraft.com/)

73,
Mike

[kb9num]

I think the back country rescue is overplayed here. More useful will be the access to the NTS in first hours of an emergency. If we can roll with a qrp cw rig we can be on the air quickly until more permanent temporary stations can be set up. I see an 817 and some wire, or an Outbacker as a great jump kit option, as long as there is someone on the other end. This could happen in the middle of a city if power is down and short range methods are unreliable. Just another tool.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WA3KYY @ Dec. 02 2003,10:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Dec. 01 2003,17:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Read the fine print before posting. #Still believe the remark I made is applicable.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I did Marty, both in the annoucement and on the NREN web site (basically the same). #I guess we have differing interpretations of what was meant. #
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Whoops. I meant to say "I read," not "Read". Sorry for the confusion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Since NREN is being sponsored by the Michigan NTS net, QMN, I see this as strenghthening the NTS. #The procedures and message format are those of the NTS. #The NTS nets can serve as training for the NREN operations which do not appear to have regularlly #scheduled operations or training sessions (yet). #Perhaps the ideal place to recruit watch stations is from the current crop of NTS ops. #I doubt we will ever see the NTS nets with a similar watch operation. #It would also be an excellent idea to suggest all potential NREN watch stations participate in their local NTS CW net.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Good point.

[al7n]

The whole idea behind NREN is to have someone LISTENING. On known frequencies. #This is not being done most places now in the country. #There are lots
of places where you cannot "dial 911" on a cell phone, or raise a repeater, or raise anyone on 146.52 vfh-fm. #This might be especially so if something has occurred that overloads these networks. Also, the vhf and higher frequency stuff needs line of sight between transmitter and receiver. #HF does not. #Another thing...The digital modes are fine in a well supplied and climate controlled environment where you can set up and operate suitable equipment, but they can be hard to control in a "net" environment. #And then you have the logistic problem of paper supply for hard copy, unless you want to hand copy it off a video display. Might as well copy it by ear on CW in the first place!
The voice modes have another problem that crops up when conditions are marginal, either due to background noise at the transmitting and/or receiving ends or due to poor radio conditions, weak signals, noisy circuits etc. #Many words in the English language have similar sounds, but different meanings, and it is very easy to mis-copy some words and distort the meaning of the traffic when using voice mode under adverse conditions. #Not to mention confusion when words like "to" "too" "two" #etc. are used...they all sound the same, but carry diffferent meanings. #How about the words "fifty" and "sixty"?? #I'd sure as hell hate to request someone to send me SIXTY gallons of fuel to get out of somewhere, and only have FIFTY arrive...well, you get the point. #To get it perfectly copied, you often have to resort to using phonetics, and spell the words phonetically, which complicates things a lot...
A telegraph key cannot be overridden by high background noise levels, and it spells
each word in the transmitted text properly as long as it is operated by a competent operator. #Morse code does have it's advantages. #I'd lots rather have a competent CW man on the far end of my emergency work or any record traffic work for that matter than someone who might not hear me correctly on voice.-
AL7N #Fairbanks, Alaska

[W9WHE]

1) Alaska Emergency Frequecny
2) 146.52 (wilderness protocol)
3) 121.5 & 243.0 Air emergency frequencies
4) 155.475 (National Law Enforcement Emergency Freq)
5) 156.8 Marine ch #16 Emergency
6) 2.182 Oceangoing vessel distress frequency
7) 462.55 National GMRS Emergency

On the above, you not only have hams, but lots and lots of #**real professionals** monitoring. The more listeners on any given frequency, the more effictive the plan. DILUTE the plan with new frequencies and you REDUCE the effectiveness of existing plans.

With a finite number of "listeners", the more frequencies #there are to monitor, the FEWER listeners there will be on any given frequency. NREN will dilute and divide the finite number of listeners among yet another frequency. NREN will actually REDUCE the chances of being heard by REDUCING the finite number of listeners to the ESTABLISHED emergency frequencies.

I recognize you CW guys are terrified that CW will go the way of the dodo. However, this is NOT the way.

[n0ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9WHE @ Dec. 02 2003,11:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1) Alaska Emergency Frequecny
2) 146.52 (wilderness protocol)
3) 121.5 & 243.0 Air emergency frequencies
4) 155.475 (National Law Enforcement Emergency Freq)
5) 156.8 Marine ch #16 Emergency
6) 2.182 Oceangoing vessel distress frequency
7) 462.55 National GMRS Emergency

On the above, you not only have hams, but lots and lots of #**real professionals** monitoring. The more listeners on any given frequency, the more effictive the plan. DILUTE the plan with new frequencies and you REDUCE the effectiveness of existing plans.

With a finite number of "listeners", the more frequencies #there are to monitor, the FEWER listeners there will be on any given frequency. NREN will dilute and divide the finite number of listeners among yet another frequency. NREN will actually REDUCE the chances of being heard by REDUCING the finite number of listeners to the ESTABLISHED emergency frequencies.

I recognize you CW guys are tettified that CW will go the way of the dodo. However, this is NOT the way.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Bravo! #

How many of these "professional" agencies require people monitoring the frequencies to be proficient in code. #

Nothing wrong with CW -- in fact all the interest has motivated me to try some on HF once I do a little homework and get a key set up.

Code as the primary means of communication during an emergency is not a good idea -- voice backed up with narrow band "digital mode" station to station digital may be more advisable now that we've entered a new century.

Everyone can remember SOS. #Even if the QRP rig has a keyer built in (like some of them do) not too many operators know or can remember how to send the details needed to identify the problem or isolate the location.

Key thing to remember in an emergency is KISS -- Keep it short and simple.

Any thing we can do to help folks in an emergency is a great thing. (Please -- let's not use this as an opportunity to justify keeping code. Doing so may cause us to miss a great opportunity!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


My opinion -- likely not the most popular or accepted!

Cheers

[W1CAR]

This thread keeps getting better and better every time I come back to check it out.

Pros and cons of the NREN. We should rename the entire thread.

Better to help support the infrastructure that is already in place then to go off on one's own and try to start something new. Ham radio already has a lot of things bearing down on it...why add to the weight?

Ok.. I'm done. But I will continue to read this one.

[al7n]

From the Alaska Perspective:

1. #Things in Alaska are a little (or often a LOT) different than they are
in the "lower 48". #HF radio propagation sure is. #At Fairbanks' latitude,
things are even much different than they are at Anchorages' latitude, or in
Southeast in the Juneau/Sitka/Ketchikan area

I have lived in Alaska for 29 years, #12 years of which time, I was employed
as a Marine radio operator and telecommunications technician out of Nome
on the Southern Seward Peninsula. #I have extensive experience in radio operating in the
Alaskan bush, as an amateur, commercial air-taxi pilot, as well as a commercial
MF/HF/VHF SSB/FM/CW radio operator.

2. #You mentioned a "finite" number of listeners?
I'd think that out of a pool of thousands of Amateurs, a few could monitor
three more frequencies
without doing any damage to the number of those already monitoring whatever
they now monitor. #If they monitor anything. That argument sure don't wash.

3. #You mentioned The Alaska Emergency Frequency. #By that, I assume you
mean 5167.5 Khz USB. # Does your amateur equipment transmit on that frequency?
Mine does not. #Also, that frequency is only for use in emergencies, and is not
normally available for testing, routine traffic work or anything else which normally
would be used to keep it "hot" and available. #5 Mhz is not always
useable over the long distances encountered in Alaska either. #I've had some
experience with it as we had 5167.5 USB on our Marine HF SSB transmitters and receivers
when I worked at the Alascom Marine Coastal Station in Nome 1975-1984. #It was no better
than the 40 or 80 meter amateur bands a lot of the time, and that means often useless.
We did do a routine "comm check" with Kulis AFB (Anchorage) on the circuit, it worked about
half the time, but understanding what was being spoken over a poor SSB circuit
was always difficult. #I would have cringed over having to actually handle written
traffic over that link.

4. All the commercial coastal MF HF and VHF stations in Alaska have now been
shut down due to lack of commercial traffic, and the distress monitoring we did
on 500 Khz, 2182 Khz and VHF 156.8 Mhz
via those stations is no longer being done by anybody except the boats and ships
themselves (maybe...no longer required), a few private individuals, and the Coast Guard,
whose monitoring is all remoted to Juneau or other locations (and subject to loss of the
remote sites in a communications infrastructure outage).

5. #If you get out of town , I can guarantee you 146.52 FM will not raise anyone. #Maybe
not in town either. # Unless you pre-arrange it with another amateur.
Ham Repeater coverage on VHF is marginal to good in some parts of the populated
areas of the state, but heavily depends on landline or repeater links, any of which can fail
or be out of service at any time...not always there. #I would never trust it to be.

6. Ditto with cellphones...good when it works, but don't bet your life on it.
The cellsite operations depend on a rather fragile non-redundant common
carrier infrastructure that can be instantly put out of action by numerous
things, such as the common earthquakes hereabouts. # #Overloads are also
a possibility.

7. Public safety and aircraft frequencies you mentioned are indeed monitored
by "professionals", but #most ordinary citizen type people don't carry radios that will
transmit on those frequencies, so they are not really "available" without the public
safety officer or aircraft pilot available to use the mobile end. If you crash in the
bush and live through it, you might be able to use the radio if it still works. This
happens occasionally, but you have to be in range of some other aircraft generally
to be heard. Not all commercial airliners listen on 121.5 Mhz anymore. It's a "maybe".

8. #ELT's on 121.5 and 243.0 # Erroneous activations are common. Considerable time
is spent running these things down on airport ramps, and #SAR by anybody is rarely
initiated until all the airports are checked. #It takes an "overdue aircraft/hunter/boater"
type report coupled with an ELT beacon signal to really get anyone to seriously start looking
for someone who is lost. #A properly filed flight plan, float plan or hunting itinerary
is better insurance than depending on an ELT beacon...an ELT only helps find you after you
are missed for a while.

9. #There are about thirty amateurs presently signed up for watch activity nationwide
on NREN. #You can find their callsigns by looking at the NREN website, which you have
obviously not done, or you would have seen it. #I don't see where more monitoring
activity by these folks on a few CW frequencies will dilute, disrupt or otherwise interfere
with anything else at all. #

10. #Nobody is saying that a few CW operators monitoring some CW frequencies is
going to be something that magically helps anybody and everybody in distress. That is
not what it is all about...NREN is only meant to augment what is already there. #
Having yet another way to possibly get help in a distress situation or to pass traffic
where other methods fail or are not available cannot possibly do any harm. #
It might even work better in some cases!

Nobody is asking you to participate. #If you don't care for the idea, ignore it.

[al7n]

This is from Jim Wades....

Apparently, many who have attacked NREN have never invested the time to
visit the NREN web page or inquire as to the specific goals of the
organization. #It seems all one has to do on "QRZ" is mention CW and some
are so consumed by emotion and irrational behaviour they reach a point where
they can't be confused with facts.

W9WHE and others apparently never took the time to visit the NREN web page.
If they had, they would have quickly realized that the program is not about
distress calls or rescue operations, although it could be used for this
purpose in the absence of other facilities.

For those of you who apparently can't take the time to visit our web page,
the primary functions of NREN are as follows:

* Permit Section and local NTS traffic nets to bypass the NTS Region, Area,
and TCC cycles in time of emergency so as to avoid unnecessary delays
associated with the #routine cycle of nets.

* Serves as a tool for coordinating the establishment of point-to-point
traffic circuits between widely dispersed ARES, RACES, or NTS nets on short
notice.

* Serve as an outlet for public service communications or NTS traffic in
areas where no organized ARES or RACES organization exists (of which there
are plenty, particularly in rural areas).

* Serve as an access point for the origination of NTS routine, welfare or
priority traffic at odd times, such as when scheduled nets are not in
session.

* Serve as a tool for individuals who might want to originate a brief
radiogram or e-mail to home while camping or otherwise out of cellular
telephone range.

Please get the following facts straight:

1. NREN is not a replacement for ARES, RACES, or similar services. #It is
not a "sour grapes" attempt to compete with these programs as some have
suggested.

2. NREN is not a replacement for 911 or other readily available distress
frequencies/services?

3. NREN is not a "stalking horse" designed to promote the CW exam # If our
vast array of critics had taken the time to investigate our web page, they
would have seen that we also promote digital protocols, as does our parent
organization, QMN.

Contrary to the comments of W1CAR from Virginia RACES, NREN does not
"duplicate" existing services nor add "overhead" to Amateur Radio. #A major
problem with NTS traffic flow in time of emergency has always been the
delays associated with the traditional cycle of nets. #NREN is designed to
alleviate this problem through a standard protocol and design. #Likewise,
NTS nets are difficult to alert and activate in time of emergency, so a
watch method permits access to NTS operators when a Section Net may not be
available.

What is perhaps most interesting (and disappointing) about this entire
debate is the fact that any number of independent, wide-area SSB nets can
operate on almost every HF band throughout the day without comment or
criticism, yet, when a few CW operators get together to develop a
specialized program that is far less likely to compete with existing public
service resources, all heck breaks loose. #Illogical, emotionally charged
comments and arguments surface based on limited facts and assumptions. #For
example, consider W9HEW's recommended "professional" alternatives to NREN
within the context of the goals and purposes of NREN stated above......

"1) Alaska Emergency Frequency"

Originally unavailable in the lower 48 States, and now part of the 60 Meter
Amateur allocation, and open to SSB only. #No data, no CW, no alternate
modes. #In addition, few Amateur Radio transceivers are capable of
transmitting on these allocations.

"2) 146.52 (wilderness protocol)"

Despite numerous attempts, I have NEVER once raised anyone using this
protocol. #Not ONCE. #Believe me, I've camped, hiked, and gone fishing and
canoeing in all kinds of places and absolutely no one has been available on
'52 (unless perhaps I wanted to canoe down a nice urban, polluted river -
perhaps W9WHE will join me!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

"3) 121.5 & 243.0 Air emergency frequencies"

I'm sure the FAA will let us use these frequencies to establish a
point-to-point traffic circuit between our American Red Cross Chapter and
National Headquarters in Virginia (or some such location) for the
transmission of data and record message traffic.

"4) 155.475 (National Law Enforcement Emergency Freq)"

I'm sure the law enforcement agencies will also allow their frequencies to
be tied up with NTS and served agency or welfare traffic functions during a
disaster.

"5) 156.8 Marine ch #16 Emergency"

I'm sure the USCG will be more than happy to relinquish channel 19 for
on-going point-to-point traffic between our State EOC and surrounding State
jurisdictions. Give me a break.

"6) 2.182 Oceangoing vessel distress frequency"

Perhaps the USCG operators would be happy to receive and deliver outgoing
Health and Welfare traffic leaving a disaster area.

"7) 462.55 National GMRS Emergency"

Lots of GMRS operators in those rural areas! #They're also very skilled at
handling NTS format traffic. #Someone please help me!

One can't help but assume that the entire NREN debate has once again been
hijacked and turned into another endless "no-code / pro-code" grudge match.
Perhaps many of these objections to NREN are really hidden-agenda objections
to CW. #After all, consider the above comment from W9HEW:

"I recognize you CW guys are tettified that CW will go the way of the dodo.
However, this is NOT the way."

If W9HEW, W1CAR and others don't like NREN, they need not participate. #They
may join another type of net. #There are plenty of wide-coverage independent
SSB nets already in operation on numerous bands throughout the day. #We see
no reason to duplicate or compete with these existing resources. #Likewise,
we make no apology for the use of CW, as it offers significant benefits over
SSB for many traffic handling applications.

All we ask is that some people try to get their facts straight instead of
misrepresenting our organization and attacking the honest and sincere
efforts of our volunteers.

James Wades, PEM
General Manager, Michigan Net, QMN, Inc.
National Radio Emergency Network
P.O. Box 457
Allegan, Michigan #49010

visit us at: #www.qsl.net/w8ihx/ # and # #www.aa8vs.org/nren/

[wb5yiw]

This will be my last posting on this subject, because like anything else that involves the "cw" question, it can't be discussed logically. #There simply is too much emotion involved. Add to that, the nut cases that can't accept anything different from what they've always had will beat it to death. #Ok, enough. #I don't have an opinion of whether this should survive or not, but it won't matter. #It will work or not, if there are enough interested to keep it going, or it will die if there aren't. #Anyone remember packet? #There was the same ridiculous discussions over that. #I personally have never used packet, but I don't care if someone else does. Someone else's participation in it takes nothing away from me, nor does it add anything. #It simply.....is.

Someone earlier listed a bunch of frequencies that people are supposed to be listening to...well, here are some real world experiences. #It was 1978, I think...I was sitting on the shoulder of I30 near Dallas around 11 pm, having struck some pieces of a car involved in an accident a few seconds before I got there. #The pieces of the of the damaged car sliced the sidewalls of 2 tires. #I was otherwise uninvolved in the accident. #Had a 2 Meter radio (45 watts, 5/8 wave antenna). #Back in those days, not many repeaters were pl'd so I tried most of the ones listed in the manual. #Finally gave up, and started checking every repeater pair the radio was capable of, plus all the simplex channels. #Know what? #Not a single person ever responded to my call for help. #I don't remember how many repeaters I could bring up, but there were several. #Nothing. #Zip...nada...didn't have any other band on board at the time. #No cell phone in those days. #Finally, a police cruiser happened by, and called in and got me a tow truck. #Fast forward to 1996, some rural hiway in the panhandle of Florida. Can't remember the number...came up on an overturned 18 wheeler. #No one hurt, but one lane of the hiway was blocked and a power pole had been knocked down. #Same result....no one ever answered my calls for help. #Tried every repeater I could bring up, and all the simplex channels on vhf and uhf. #Passer-by called police on a mobile phone. # Fast forward to present day...250 member club, 75 or so at the club meeting, 40 of which volunteer to work a marathon in a wilderness area. # How many show up? #Me, and 3 others.

Wanna know why hams won't be effective in a real emergency? #It's because they won't get off thier duffs and do anything. #I've had a ham that held a license for 50 years bitch because a hurricane net was interfering with his weekly QSO with an old war buddy.

That 250 member club I mentioned a while ago....has about a dozen members left. #Still has 5 repeaters on the air. They elected a president, but no one would accept nomination to the other offices. Last I heard, they weren't even holding meetings anymore. #That marathon I mentioned now rents radios from the 2-way shop I work for because they can't get enough hams to do the job. Did a zipcode search for the first 3 digits of my zip code, turned up over a THOUSAND hams in 2 counties. #There are 20 or more vhf and uhf repeaters in this same 2 county area, and most of the time, you never hear anyone on the air. None of them can get along well enough to talk to each other. #None of the old hams will talk to the new ones because they aren't "real" hams. #Most of them are "no coders" so they don't deserve conversation. #They aren't above sitting around on 75 meters (4 or 5 miles apart running 2kw amps and 60 db attenuators) and making fun of them, but none of them will offer to elmer these new guys.

So no...NREN won't work, neither will NTS, ARES, RACES or any other group as long as this crap goes on. #If you don't want to participate in it, fine. #Get out of the way of the ones who do. #If it turns out to be impractical, or unworkable, it will die a natural death. But don't bury it before it's dead. #If you don't like it, find something you do like, and do that. Not everyone is interested in being a top notch dx-er, or contest operator, or whatever. # This hobby is big enough for everyone.

It's not the removal of a code requirement, or the easier licencing that will kill ham radio...it's this crap. Quit fighting and find a way to work together.

[trooper]

Yeah . . . CQ CQ CQ DE N0CW / heh . . .

Well- Local VHF/UHF repeaters are cool. If the wind doesn't blow the sticks over, or a fire doesn't burn them up, or ice doesn't break them, or loss of power over an extended period of time doesn't put them in SK mode . . .

146.52 would be the best bet >IF< any of the above happens. Where else is a ham to go? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

CW is cool. Even if you hate it. It's still cool. So if you don't want to be one of the cool kids, that's fine.

It is always a treat to see how CW can nuke any conversation- No matter if it has value or not. The subject should be added to the religon and politics section of how to slaughter the maximum amount of breath and electrons in the minumum amount of time.

Maybe . . . MAYBE . . . the idea is that my 146.52 transmission in Arizona can't reach someone in Florida on a given day. (Even if I wire a key to the mic input)

Maybe if I YELL really loud into my HT it will generate some kind of skip that's much more reliable than some silly idea that Morse Code over HF could be used as a reliable alternate emergency network.

Hey- maybe nobody cares if someone outside their home state is dealing with a disaster. We have the news, right? I'll just read about what happened in the paper. Who needs ham radio anyway? All it does is pollute the commercial spectrum. Just think- for every khz of Amateur frequency allocation, that's ten less cool things we could buy at Radio Shack. And that's the real problem- We don't have enough remote-control cars, 400Mhz weather stations, 900Mhz cordless phones and 2.4Ghz WLan devices. Hey- My vote is for 20/40 meter baby monitors. Then you could lock the kids in a clost with some dry dog food and a bucket and know they're doing fine from three states away. Hmmm . . . Hook a key up to it so they can beat on it when they want mommy . . . Hahahahaha!!!

Yep . . . Amateur radio is not main-stream because of petty garbage like this. Nobody will ever take us seriously after reading sixty posts on why establishing a reliable message traffic system is a bad idea. Like- I'm going to trust my life (And Federal/State/Local funding) to a bunch of clowns that couldn't agree on where the hole on a paper bag should be.

Man, I sure wasted a lot of money on this hobby. The idea I could use my time and skills for something as silly as emergency communications and public service. Where is that old 11-meter radio? I'll change my handle to dadidadit-didadah and trade-in all my ham stuff for an echo microphone with built-in roger-beep. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

In fact- I'll start a new emergency net to compete with NREN and ARES called "The Ch. 19 Breaker-Breaker Net"

I bet I get more people to participate in one week on Interstate-10 than one ham on qrz could muster in a year of soliciting Morse Code as an alternative.

Let the bullets fly . . .

Loren B. Cobb / KD7PLU

[n0ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (trooper @ Dec. 05 2003,13:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In fact- I'll start a new emergency net to compete with NREN and ARES called "The Ch. 19 Breaker-Breaker Net"

I bet I get more people to participate in one week on Interstate-10 than one ham on qrz could muster in a year of soliciting Morse Code as an alternative.

Let the bullets fly . . .

Loren B. Cobb / KD7PLU[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Good luck

At least the language will be more colorful http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[W9WHE]

I did forget to mention the MOST monitored frequency in the land.....................Channel 19!

Its ioronic that the least regulated, least skilled, least respected and most out of control service (CB) would be the MOST likely to respond a distress call. Now doesn't that give us hams reason to pause?

[trooper]

CQ NREN CQ NREN . . . Where did this thread go? Do we like NREN or not, and if so: How is it doing? I upgraded just to send a test message . . .

trooper / N7CAV