Ohio Town Seeks to Effectively Ban all Antennas

[W8KT]

OK, I have had a large number of inquiries as to how the meeting went. #First, let me say that I approached this matter with great fervor. I spent all weekend and a few other evenings on the internet searching for documents I could use to explain my various arguments. I started with the package that I had prepared for the zoning commission that contained some background info on what ham radio is and a couple of articles I found on actual emergency situations that hams helped with. Also included were basic papers on what skywarn, ARES, and Races are. Rounding out my initial package was a copy of PRB-1.

Next, I searched the web for copies of zoning ordinances that were similar to the ordinances here. I found quite a few as it seems in Ohio many cities use a “boilerplate” document and insert the correct names and code numbers. Most of the copies I found had a disclaimer in the “telecommunications station” section stating that amateur radio towers and stations were exempt from these ordinances. I agued that this statement was because of PRB-1 and that “possibly” an error had occurred at the printer and this line was accidentally left out.

Next, since the village thought I was a “telecommunications facility” I searched for documents dealing with this subject. I found a list of telecommunications providers in Ohio and of course there were no hams included. I also found a description of a telecommunications facility on the FCC website that stated it was a station designed for the connection of portable communications to the land based phone network. The last document of this type was an application for a telecommunications license from the FCC. This document gave the sections numbers of the code that covered cellular providers. I read the council the opening page of the section of the zoning ordinances they were using to keep my towers down, and the basics were “The purpose of this Ordinance is to regulate the placement, construction, and modification of wireless telecommunication facilities and their support structures in order to protect the public health, safety and welfare, while at the same time not unreasonably interfering with the development of the competitive wireless telecommunications marketplace in the village.” I also presented the section of part 97 that says that amateur radio operators cannot be paid etc, etc. Then I argued that since I was not allowed to be compensated for my operations by their own definition, I could not be a telecommunications provider because I am not allowed to “compete”. I also asked them to find in the application where part 97 was listed.

Next, I had downloaded several texts of case law based on PRB-1 and zoning ordinances. I also presented one that a ham sent to me about his case. Of course the only cases I could find were the ones where PRB-1 prevailed. There was a case of a Kentucky ham that was tried in the sixth district federal court, the same jurisdiction my case would be handled in. I presented these to the village solicitor since he attended the meeting. I argued that PRB-1 was very successful in court and that since the sixth district had already voted in favor of PRB-1 in the Kentucky case, they were unlikely to change their mind in mine. I also furnished the section out of part 97 covering towers and antennas.

When I wasn’t on the net looking for documents, I was on the phone and email. First, I sent a copy of the letter posted here to a few local ham friends and asked them to send it to al the hams they knew. I called the county EMA office and asked the director if he could write a general letter on his (and the county’s) support for ham radio. I called the county EOC and asked him for a letter attesting to my participation in the county ARES program. I received a very nice letter from both of these offices. I called the National Weather Service and asked if they could send a letter attesting to the fact that my wife and I were trained spotters and participated in nets during bad weather. Let me say that the weather service REALLY supports ham radio. I received a very nice letter from them about our training and our repeater. I asked my old neighbors to write a short letter on any interference issues they had with my old station. (I knew there had only been one problem in 13 years.) I asked my old neighbors to attend the meeting if possible.

I dressed nice for the meeting and arrived early. I picked a seat right in the front so the council could see my wife and I. Soon several of my ham friends arrived. Then my old neighbors. Then the main complainers about my wish to install my towers arrived. Soon the room was nearly full and it was meeting time. I presented all the items listed previously and spent about an hour speaking and distributing papers. Things were going well. Then came time for my new neighbor. They made quite a show about how I would devalue their property and what a nuisance I would be. But, they came sloppily dressed and were ill prepared after the presentation I had made, and had no facts to back up their side of things.

Now it was time for the decision. There was almost no discussion and then a long pause. Finally one councilman made a motion to accept my application for a variance up to the variance limit. (I had originally asked for three towers, one sixty foot, one fifty foot, and one forty foot. During the zoning meeting I had offered to only erect two, the sixty and the fifty, hoping it would help my argument. Now I had a motion to go to the variance limit! The variance limit was one hundred feet!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Now my heart was really beating! There was quite a long pause waiting for a second to the motion, but finally it came. The roll was called and one by one the councilmen voted. Soon they had all voted and I could hardly believe my ears, my variance passed by a unanimous vote! Now, I can erect three towers, up to the variance limit if I want!

I guess my feeling on this is; if you have this type of problem, prepare yourself! There was no denying the evidence I had presented and I maintained my cool while doing so. I feel that I only made it past this hurdle by really thinking through the situation and presenting my arguments in a rational calm manner with plenty of paper to back them up. If I lived in a larger city or had went any further up the ladder I would have defiantly gotten a lawyer, however my perseverance paid off and now I am free to enjoy the greatest hobby in the world, amateur radio!!!

73 see you on the air,

W8KT


Dear fellow amateur,

Did you know that the village of Leipsic has enacted ordinances limiting ALL towers to no more than 20 feet high? This includes your antenna! Did you know that you need a "special variance" to erect ANY tower in the village?

In all fairness to the village, I must state that the 20 foot height is for freestanding towers. You can have a tower attached to your home and the tower AND antenna can be 20 feet above the house. Keep in mind that the ordinances allow only two story homes, and that a large diamond or other vertical antenna will eat up all of the 20 feet you are allowed. I did not want to cause confusion on this point, my installation is planned for two freestanding towers, one for the repeater antennas, and one for the rotating beam.



I have recently found out that the village of Leipsic is against ALL radio transmitting stations locating in the village! This includes television, broadcast radio, cellular, citizens band and AMATEUR RADIO!

As many of you know, I have operated open repeaters here in Leipsic for several years. I have recently moved back into a home built by my family where I lived as a child. One reason I bought this home was the large lot it came with that I planned on using for a better, safer antenna installation for my repeaters and other ham activities. Since moving here I applied for a permit to erect my towers on my property. I got a rude awakening! The new zoning ordinances were passed in January of this year. The council passed them as an "emergency" measure. This got them enacted without the required readings to the public, so that citizens of Leipsic had no idea and NO SAY in the text of the ordinances. The reason given on the document was "This ordinance constitutes an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health and safety and, therefore, shall go into immediate effect upon passage thereof." I ask all of you, have you ever used your radio, tower or other associated equipment to disrupt the public peace or the health and safety of our community?

I have pressed on in my quest to again be able to supply not only Leipsic, but the county with reliable repeater service for the general well being and emergency communication we are all dedicated to. On Tuesday, October 28 I had a meeting with the Leipsic planning commission to discuss my application to erect my towers. After an hour of presenting the facts that not only myself and my wife, but many of you are involved in Skywarn, ARES, RACES, and other public service activities, I was turned down. I explained the cost we bear to provide equipment and the extensive training we take to get licensed, but also the hours we volunteer for skywarn and other training and activities. Unfortunately, this too fell on deaf ears. I mentioned Tom Ridge's comments that amateurs are one of the first lines of defense for our country and was told by one member that they weren't interested in homeland security that they didn't want "these things" (towers) popping up all over town. This type of comments from those we have appointed to serve in the best interest of our community!

I have received a volume of mail and comments about PRB-1. The village has already looked at this and submitted it to the village solicitor. As of now, they are unconcerned and believe that itr does not apply.

I hope you are all still reading. I am writing this letter to request your help. I am scheduled to appear in front of the Village of Leipsic council on Monday, November 3 #at 7:30 PM to again request a variance that will allow me to install my towers. I need all of you to attend, if possible, to show your support for Amateur Radio. The people who don't want hams in Leipsic will be there, trying to keep the airwaves quiet. We as hams need to come together to show our commitment to public service, community involvement, and freedom to pursue our hobby.

I need everyone's support in this matter! If you cannot attend, please call the members of the Village of Leipsic council and those on the planning committee to voice your support of my endeavors to supply Leipsic with an open repeater and your hard work in ham radio. I am listing the members names, phone numbers and addresses at the bottom of this message. Please call or write as many as you can before Monday evening. Help keep ham radio alive in Leipsic!

73

Bob Straley, W8KT
Christine Straley KC8QQJ



[CODE]

[KB3KBR]

Try talking to your 911 center and see if the director would be willing to go to the meeting to express how much of a valuable asset we are.

Hope all goes well 73's
KB3KBR

[wa7itz]

If it were me I would go to the town council or mayor and
inform them that because of the federal pre-emption and
the FCC rules, they would likely last all of 5 minutes before
a judge... AND that if I had to go to court, I would be
asking the judge to order the town to pay my attorney
fees (if I werent arguing the case myself)...
I'd give them one chance and one chance only to
wise up and either wave the permit crap or else to issue
one ... I'd give them about 30 minutes, then I'd be
preparing a lawsuit, with or without a lawyer...
They don't have a leg to stand on and someone, maybe the legal counsel for the town, needs to do some quick educating....
Ray WA7ITZ

[WD8OQX]

20 feet?!? That isn't even worth the bother. Most houses are that tall. What are they thinking? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[kb7hk]

Go to this Arrl URL for some info on getting some help from their legal team:
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/antenna-restrictions.html

When our city council decided to pass an ordinance, interaction by an Ham lawyer explaining PRB 1 #convinced the council to totally exempt hams and cb'ers from the ordinance entirely.
Good Luck de KB7HK

[K6UEY]

BOB,
Just a hint, even though Ham Radio has digressed to a mere HOBBY, I would refrain from the use of that term, Amateur Radio is a public service as defined in the federal regulations. I'm quite sure the mayor and the town council could not give a rats patootety about what you like to do as a HOBBY. Their only interest in your HOBBY is whether they can TAX it . As suggested contact ARRL about publications giving advice on just how to approach this situation. Unless you are a practicing attorney you won't stand much of a chance going against these professional politicians. Lots of Luck, let us all know how it progresses, I am sure this is going to be a more common occurance as time goes on, the signs have been popping up all across the country for a couple of years now, with the CC&R and with municipalities who feel they are better at running our lives than we are . # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Keep us informed...... # #73, # ORV
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kj3n]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you know that the village of Leipsic has enacted ordinances limiting ALL towers to no more than 20 feet high? This includes your antenna! Did you know that you need a "special variance" to erect ANY tower in the village?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Did YOU know that PRB-1 should take care of this in about 15 minutes?

Obviously, the village (of idiots, apparently) hasn't done it's homework. Do yours and put a stop to this kind of BS.

Politicians...... can't live with 'em........... can't kill 'em.

[WA9SVD]

Get the actual FCC Ruling; it's PRB-1. Get a direct quote from the FCC site, (and also record the Web Page should anyone want to look up the ruling.)
It preempts local laws, but not CC&R's. The town's Attorney should have done his homework before approving the ordinance. Good luck.

[w8qf]

Bob,all city and county ordnances must meet the requirements of the Ohio Constitution,and you can rest assured this one does not.PRB-1 will just about give you 45' but likely no more as this is the first good angle of radiation for most HF frequencies.Contact your State Rep as well as your Congress person for your district and explain your delima.I think you will find the results both in favor and fairly quick.Dave, AE8U

[AE6IP]

W8KT,

Be careful of advice you receive on line. Federal law does not always supercede state and local law, and hams online tend to have an exagerated sense of how important amateur radio is seen to be by others, in addition to their misunderstanding of what the word service means to the FCC.

More importantly, however, is the pragmatics of politics. If you can find a compromise that is acceptable to the village council, you will be far better off than if you find yourself fighting them in court.

The ARRL has a book, Antenna Zoning for the Radio Amateur, by Fred Hopengarten. It is far more informative than any advice you will get on line.

73,

Marty

[n3mvf]

Even John Glenn, one of Ohio's favorite sons, would agree with you.

See below from a SAREX site:

SAREX stands for Shuttle Amateur Radio EXperiment, a ham radio communications payload. SAREX is an amateur radio station aboard a shuttle. Such ham radio gear is used for educational contacts with school students and for recreational chats with hams on the ground.

For instance, SAREX was aboard shuttle flight STS-95 in October 1998 when 77-year-old space pioneer and U.S. Senator John Glenn returned to space. Two licensed amateur radio operators -- U.S. astronaut Scott Parazynski, whose callsign is KC5RSY, and European Space Agency astronaut Pedro Duque of Spain, whose callsign is KC5RGG -- were among the international crew aboard STS-95.





good luck
Greg

[KB1IAI]

i believe that you and your local friends that use the repeater should try to vote these people out of office at the next election. they are infringing on your constiutional right to your pursuit of happiness. the way that they enacted this law may or may not be illegal. you should consult with an attorney that is familiar with you local ordinances. keep calm. it is alright to be angry. it is NOT alright to be a raving lunatic. good luck.

[kd5zkv]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I am sorry to hear that. I dont understand all these new rules people are putting on hams!!! I just got my ticket and the way things are going with all i have seen and been reading buy the time my son gets his ticket there will be no hobbie left........ Please let us know how it turns out


thurman willingham
kd5zkv
73

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 30 2003,20:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">W8KT,

Be careful of advice you receive on line. Federal law does not always supercede state and local law, and hams online tend to have an exagerated sense of how important amateur radio is seen to be by others, in addition to their misunderstanding of what the word service means to the FCC.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Marty, we agree on this one!

Ed

[K5QFB]

The advice that you get here is always going to lean our way! Why not?
I lived in St. Marys for a period of time and I can believe that this was passed without the public's knowledge. As already mentioned, PRB-1 will help getting them pointed in the right direction and maybe then the City Attorney will wake-up.

Many cities are trying to keep out cell towers but at the cost of everyone else including yourself.

BUT after you contact ARRL, State & Federal elected officials then it's time for an attorney. But in you suit, clearly state attorney fees, court costs and YOUR TIME! Yes, you should be paid for you time! You will eventually win but at what cost? It's a shame that at the whim of some this happens.

If they passed this ordinance what else have they passed that nobody knows about.
Time to vote them out!

Good Luck!
Gary

[KA3RFE]

Okay, the village refuses your variance. Next step could be a mailed copy of PRB-1 attached to a nasty threatening letter from an attorney mentioning the word "lawsuit" in the text. The village may back down if they have no money in the budget to defend a suit, and grant your variance without further drama.

But it sounds like a village that Stephen King might make a book about. Only two-story houses? Sheesh...

[W9JCM]

K6UEY guess what it is a hobby.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KA3RFE @ Oct. 30 2003,21:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, the village refuses your variance. Next step could be a mailed copy of PRB-1 attached to a nasty threatening letter from an attorney mentioning the word "lawsuit" in the text. The village may back down if they have no money in the budget to defend a suit, and grant your variance without further drama.

But it sounds like a village that Stephen King might make a book about. Only two-story houses? Sheesh...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Or they might just get their back up over the issue and decide to make an example of you.

Rightous indignation is a great feeling, but it tends to be an expensive habit. It makes far more sense to try and find common ground then to put people on the defensive.

Marty

[wixy]

I Would go into the meeting wearing the american flag as a diaper, because that is what our elected officals are acting like

[wb8rkq]

well just put a 60 ft telaphone pole in and put a ant on that i just can not belive all this crap other people telling other people what to do the hell with them just put one up and dont listen to them you got to stand tall you realy dont need a tower just put a good vertical on top of your house and a dipole up for 75 meters thats what i do and it works great a good veritcal like a r-5 works great i had a beam up the same hight as my r-5 vertical and there wasnt that much different and for 75 meters heck a diploe will work great at 20 ft so you dont realy need a big tower and beams and all that stoff they allso got some great vertical ant, for 2 and 440 that work just as good as the high gain beams so you can allways go that way if you dont want to put up a tower but i would never let no one tell me what to do on my own land what the heck are you paying all those taxes on your land for if they dont want you to put up a tower over 20 ft then tell them to pay your land taxes for you then you will do what they say right stand tall well 73

[aa1mn]

Hey, not for nothing, but this is finally the voice of reason being spoken here.

I for one am sick of going by homes in my, and surrounding neighborhoods, with antenna towers on the side or front of homes -- sweet mother of pearl, it makes an otherwise pleasant suburban residential community look like the inner city slums.

If these flamers would just keep the towers in the back yard were they were less inconspicuous and weren't so obvious stuff like this wouldn't happen.

Now, if only this could happen where I live ...

Chuck, AA1MN

[KD7EFQ]

I have heard that in the state of Colorado somewhere, PRB-1 was overturned and the ham was denied his tower. PRB-1 doesn't always work, but so far 99% of the time it has, I guess because the city council's didn't have the money to keep fighting. I feel trying to compromise in todays liberal society is a waste of time. As in CC&R's, they don't care who is the property owner or taxpayer, Their Socialist / Marxist attitudes want us all to live in cookie cutter houses and bow to their power and control issues. In Today's world I see but 2 choices, fight as long and hard as you can, or move somewhere else. Unfortunately we are losing our choices and liberties in this country everyday. 73.

[n0zu]

[B]if it is like the town that I live in
they do not want people to have to look at your tower

and if you have enough money you can pay them off to let you put up a tower

but if you try to adk for legial councial from the ARRL
as a member

you get your toes steped on and they say go and find your own lawyer

I know I became a ARRL member and was told it I had any proublems,
that the local ARRL member that was from Cedar Rapids IOWA would help

Boy was I miss led
So I droped my memeber ship with the ARRL

I relisted this year just to get QRZ this year but not impresed with that so I will drop after this year again

because If Iwas to ask for help again I figuer that I will get told to get my own laywer

So if the ARRL is not to help what is the use in being a member.

I guess it is QST???

so do not ask the ARRL for help They will not give it to you as they would not help me

[kj4uw]

My county tried the same thing. We started a whispering campaign that the government officials were in the pocket of the cabel TV company. Some even asked the commissioners if they were consultants to the cable company. Also, a check of campaign records my turn up something.

When we suggested the cabel TV connection the action was reversed. There were also no exceptions to the regulation which would have taken the sheriff dept antenna down.
George Mann
KJ4W

[KU2S]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb8rkq @ Oct. 31 2003,06:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well just put a 60 ft telaphone pole in and put a ant on that i just can not belive all this crap other people telling other people what to do the hell with them just put one up and dont listen to them you got to stand tall you realy dont need a tower just put a good vertical on top of your house and a dipole up for 75 meters thats what i do and it works great a good veritcal like a r-5 works great i had a beam up the same hight as my r-5 vertical and there wasnt that much different and for 75 meters heck a diploe will work great at 20 ft so you dont realy need a big tower and beams and all that stoff they allso got some great vertical ant, for 2 and 440 that work just as good as the high gain beams so you can allways go that way if you dont want to put up a tower but i would never let no one tell me what to do on my own land what the heck are you paying all those taxes on your land for if they dont want you to put up a tower over 20 ft then tell them to pay your land taxes for you then you will do what they say right stand tall well 73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dude! I've got one word for you... "punctuation."

For God's sake, if you have anything worth saying you might as say it in a manner that aids comprehension and clarity. Fix the comma and period keys on your keyboard, then maybe folks would listen to you...

Regarding the topic at hand, the very FIRST thing the original poster should do is get a complete copy of the village ordinance and pour over it with a fine-toothed comb. He should look for any and all loopholes and exceptions that might benefit the ham operator in the community, but he should ALSO look for restrictions and non-exceptions that hamper village, county and state agencies. To turn the enemy's weapon against him is the sign of a wise warrior.

It would probably NOT be a bad idea to post the text of the ordinance (unedited and complete) on the site. That way the amateur legal eagles here can take a look at it and (hopefully) provide well-informed advice.

[n4ews]

You think this is bad !!

Our entire county has a 35 foot restriction !!!

We fought them about ten years ago and won, but someone convieniently forgot to record the changes in the meetings minutes, and was never enacted !!

We havn't called on the lawyer's yet but it may come to that very soon !

Joe D. Franklin County NC ( http://www.fcarc.net )

73 N4EWSFCARC Webpage (http://www,fcarc.net)

[ag9r]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9JCM @ Oct. 30 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">K6UEY #guess what it is a hobby.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's ONLY a Hobby, If thats all you make of it. Some of us like to provide the community with some form of Service or another.

As to the Question at hand never take the advice of A Self Proclaimed Amateur radio op Lawyer unless of course he is a OHIO lawer with Federal Law experience, sure will spend alot of money only to find out he was as good as some of the Forum attorneys you see in here. Contact the ARRL law department they will get you where you need to go. but by all means Fight, Fight , Fight The more case law there is on the matter the sooner these towns and cities will realize they dont have a chance.
Howver it would be good to see these cities and towns made accountable for passing laws that directly conflict with federal statutes and provide releif to the Ham that has to spend all this cash to fight a ordinence that is in direct conflict.

P.S if you see spelling errors dont contact me unless you are a Spelling or english teacher, I dont have time for the flames............

[KF7CG]

Pardon me for getting biblical here. It is time to go the extra mile.

Contact all your friends, call in all your favors with the local broadcast and service radio groups and ensure that Leipsic becomes a "radio free" zone.

They don't wan't cell towers, maybe they can be accidentally left out of cell phone coverage?

They don't like radio and television broadcast, maybe all civic and community news items can be found not to fit the available time and not be broadcast.

If you can't work signals out of the community, do they even exist for warnings?

Can you afford the time now that your radio activities have had to move so far from home to give any time to helping?

These are the questions each and every Ham in your region of Ohio will have to ask themselves.

Of course you should help your town! If they don't wan't radio you should do everything to help the get rid of ALL radio.

The 20 foot stuff in the ordinance is to accomodate CB and broadcast television antenas. CB antena heights are limited to these levels by the CB reg, and TV reception does not markedly improve after this height.

The idea is that these limits are a reasonable compromise and therefore will satisfy PRB-1. They do offer the possibility (however infinitesimally small) of a special variance is the rest of the concession to PRB-1.

[KA3RFE]

Marty: The nasty letter could also offer a choice. They could come to a resolution voluntarily after talks or they will have to defend themselves in court. Once they see the text of PRB-1, perhaps they will come to an agreement.

73, Pete KA3RFE

[WT0A]

See article on ARRL web page titled "Texas Antenna Case Shows PRB-1 is No Paper Tiger" (Oct 20, 2003)

[KK9H]

One thing not mentioned in your post is whether or not you have hired an attorney. In Illinois it would be illegal for a village board or town council to hold a meeting in the way you described for the purpose of passing an ordinance like that. Unfortunately, laws like this vary greatly from state to state, but I would strongly recommend that you be represented by counsel when you attend your meeting on November 3rd.

There have been numerous antenna issues in towns around my area that have ended favorably for the applicant, but it required the help of a competant attorney who is familiar with the local zoning laws and regulations. Happily, my home town, Northfield, IL, allows amateur radio towers up to 70 feet with only a valid ham license, platte of survey, manufacturer's spec sheet and village permit application with a minimal fee. Maybe you should consider getting involved with your local government and help encourage change in this area.

Donald Whiteman, KK9H
Northfield Village President

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD7EFQ @ Oct. 31 2003,06:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have heard that in the state of Colorado somewhere, PRB-1 was overturned and the ham was denied his tower. PRB-1 doesn't always work, but so far 99% of the time it has, I guess because the city council's didn't have the money to keep fighting. I feel trying to compromise in todays liberal society is a waste of time. As in CC&R's, they don't care who is the property owner or taxpayer, Their Socialist / Marxist attitudes want us all to live in cookie cutter houses and bow to their power and control issues. In Today's world I see but 2 choices, fight as long and hard as you can, or move somewhere else. Unfortunately we are losing our choices and liberties in this country everyday. 73.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
A lot of people seem to misunderstand PRB-1. It is not an absolute assurance that a ham can put up whatever antennas they care to. Nor is it federal law. It is the FCC's opinion.

PRB-1 (http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/amateur/prb/) itself states that it provides a limited preemption of state and local laws.

The key feature of PRB-1, in the FCC's own language is:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
the Commission stated that a local ordinance or zoning regulation must make reasonable accommodation for amateur communications and must constitute the minimum practicable regulation to accomplish the local authority's legitimate purpose.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That is, the FCC did not say that local ordinances must allow all possible antenna configurations; but rather that they make reasonable accomodations.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kj4uw @ Oct. 31 2003,06:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My county tried the same thing. We started a whispering campaign that the government officials were in the pocket of the cabel TV company. #Some even asked the commissioners if they were consultants to the cable company. #Also, a check of campaign records my turn up something. #

When we suggested the cabel TV connection the action was reversed. #There were also no exceptions to the regulation which would have taken the sheriff dept antenna down.
George Mann
KJ4W[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What an appaling thing to do. #With attitudes such as the one expressed here and similarly in other posts on this thread, it is no wonder that amateur radio operators have a bad reputation in some communities.

[ac3p]

Don't know if this will help, but I just came across a news story about a fight over politcal signs and deed restrictions and the First Amendment. Maybe there is something of use here.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/casey/2192815

73

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0SCC @ Oct. 31 2003,07:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9JCM @ Oct. 30 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">K6UEY #guess what it is a hobby.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's ONLY a Hobby, If thats all you make of it. Some of us like to provide the community with some form of Service or another.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It's still only a hobby, even then. #If you want your service to be more than a hobby, get trained, certified, and hired.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
As to the Question at hand never take the advice of A Self Proclaimed Amateur radio op Lawyer unless of course he is a OHIO lawer with Federal Law experience, sure will spend alot of money only to find out he was as good as some of the Forum attorneys you see in here.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Never take pro bono advice from the web. No competent lawyer will offer it, so you should suspect any that will.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Contact the ARRL law department they will get you where you need to go. but by all means Fight, Fight , Fight The more case law there is on the matter the sooner these towns and cities will realize they dont have a chance.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Oh. Good. Another 'us-agaisnt-them' bunker-mentality approach. #Just what amateur radio needs. Maybe, just maybe, if we consider that we are residents of a community, and act as if we are part of the community, we might be able to persuade the rest of the community of the value of our antennas. Beats the daylights out of setting ourselfs against an entire community that we have to live in.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Howver it would be good to see these cities and towns made accountable for passing laws that directly conflict with federal statutes and provide releif to the Ham that has to spend all this cash to fight a ordinence that is in direct conflict.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

PRB-1 isn't statute law, and it isn't a blanket endorsement of amateur antennas.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
P.S if you see spelling errors dont contact me unless you are a Spelling or english teacher, I dont have time for the flames............[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


P.S. what about grammar errors? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[wb6bcn]

I don't know if it would do any good, #however; it couldn't hurt:

Contact W8HDU, Fred Vobbe at Channel 35. #He has done articles for AR Newsline, #and I believe he has done articles on Channel 35. #If you have IRLP, #just contact him at his node. See if he would like to editoralize on this.

I am sure the city would like to have their action announced in a negative connotation all around the nation on AR Newsline, #or even just Northwest Ohio.

I know where you are; #I Grew up in Paulding. #Most people around there, #at least when I was there, #did not want any negative press.

Good Luck

[w6em]

Before you all get worked up on the authority of PRB-1 over local governments, go the ARRL web site and read the 10/24 ARRL Letter story of Orin Snook, KB5F, the South Texas amateur who supposedly prevailed in Federal Court. #Did he "win"? #The ARRL makes it sound like he did. #I'm not so sure he did.

ARRL Letter 10/24 (http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/03/1024/)

After 10s of thousands in legal bills, 20-plus municipal criminal citations (which, by the way, weren't overturned by the Federal Court), and Orin's wife being fired from her city job, do you really think he won? #Sure, he can put up a tower, but look what it cost him.

Number one, municipalities have attorneys, code enforcement officers, etc. on retainer, so it doesn't cost them a dime to go to court to defend themselves. #Secondly, the Courts give government the benefit of the doubt that it's not purposefully harrassing or retaliating against a complainant as was clearly the situation in Texas.

So, throw state law at them, via their attorney, and they just smile and say, "it doesn't apply here," and off they go.

It's been happening here in several small cities in West Florida. #Holmes Beach and Bradenton Beach, for example, and I think Anna Maria as well. #They have ordinances limiting ANY structure to not more than 35 feet above the crown of the road.

If that weren't enough, Bradenton Beach, on November 4, will have on its ballot an advisory vote item where voters can give the city their opinion whether or not to grant any more variances to the 35 foot limit, irrespective of the reason.

And, Florida has had one of the earliest PRB-1 state adoptions period. #Go fancy that. #Hello, ARRL.

Part of the problem is that our ARRL is not picking up the legal tab and appealing the decisions, unless the court declares not only the ordinances null and void, but provides appropriate relief to the complainant and sanctions the governmental entity as well.

I'm no attorney, but have been told (by an attorney) that unless the decision is affirmed on appeal, it doesn't create a precedent. #And, the cost of litigation of this type should be TOTALLY borne by our ARRL. #After all, its in all of our best interests to have these types of ordinances or policies thoroughly stamped out......and the Boards, Commissions, and Councils that enacted them sanctioned or punished for having done so...after having been advised otherwise.

Quite frankly, the ARRL should be ACTIVELY SEEKING OUT such municipal ordinances, and filing suit in State or Federal Court, as appropriate, to get them trashed. #Not waiting until someone has to suffer.


Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL

[k0ru]

Forget the whole thing and just move.

SELL YOUR HOUSE TO THE NEXT ARAB.

Seems that all this country wants to do is continue to take another one of our freedoms away.

We buy the land, leave us alone!

This crap about property value, and stuff is for the birds. #We live here, we've been here, you don't like it, don't build here. #Get out.

Every dang one of these new housing development looks just like some stupid cookie cutting developement.

If your stupid enough to pay $200k for a house thats only 10 foot away from your nabor, shame on you.

Enuf
Rob - W8YRB

[WG4STV]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8KT @ Oct. 30 2003,18:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dear fellow amateur,

Did you know that the village of Leipsic has enacted ordinances limiting ALL towers to no more than 20 feet high? This includes your antenna! Did you know that you need a "special variance" to erect ANY tower in the village?

[snip][/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Good luck on your fight. If we don't fight for our rights, we will slowly but surely lose every single one of them and this country will end up a government state.

[n8zux]

Last of all I would say any person who has a Voting Card and is at legal age to vote I would say, time to vote other people into office, I live near a situation that a Police Chief was Fired to soke out a misuse of funds issue, Cheif was restored, and by the way who says you cannot recall any politician ? I knew a Ham who did in fact ran for political office and had some rules changed in favor of the Hams http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I live in Michigan and in a Township, our Supervisor and I discussed stuff that really impressed him and he is a Vol. Fireman.

I also mentioned PRB-1 to him in sandwich of converstaion.

My thinking on poor antenna installs and hazzards from not to well taught radio operator wannabes or TV engineer wannabees !

11M. CB had to go fiberglass on Base Antennas primairly electrocution and again untrained antenna installers.

[w6em]

Ironicly, too many of us, including myself, rant and rave about having ANY conditions placed on antenna installations. #The last post reminded me, though, of the need for a structurally sound, safe installation. #Which translates into, guess what, a building permit and a design drawing of the proposed installation.

Things like wind loading, foundation and guying are very important elements of a proper tower installation. #And, setback from adjoining property and from overhead power lines as well.

But, just saying categorically that nothing can exceed XYZ feet in height is totally a bunch of toilet content.

[WD8OQX]

I wonder what it would take to actually make a federal law against this sort of BS? - Probably cost us more than it's worth?

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WD8OQX @ Oct. 31 2003,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder what it would take to actually make a federal law against this sort of BS? - Probably cost us more than it's worth?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Even if you got your federal law, the municipalities wouldn't obey it. #So, who would enforce it? #The FCC doesn't have the time or staff.

And, if you went to Federal Court via your own counsel, all the court would do is tell the entity not to do it anymore. #No fines, no sanctions, no damages, etc.

PRB-1's enough to do it with, if the ARRL would go after the ones that have arbitrary height restrictions. #Especially if their states have adopted PRB-1.

[ke6oud]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9JCM @ Oct. 30 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">K6UEY #guess what it is a hobby.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
w9jcm: Shut up, Stupid!

[ai4ep]

...I got a question !! > How does the police department communicate in this town, how about the street department,... the water department... the gas department. etc..etc... usually via 2-way radio on some frequency or another, every small town is not totally on cell phones yet. How about their communication towers ? They might be on low band vhf or 150 - 174 Mhz business band or 460 Mhz business band ; Are they exempt ?

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ke6oud @ Oct. 31 2003,20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W9JCM @ Oct. 30 2003,22:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">K6UEY #guess what it is a hobby.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
w9jcm: Shut up, Stupid![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I've always wanted to learn how to play an oud. But I figure amateur radio is a much nicer hobby.

73,

Marty

[k1lwi]

how about a telephone pole they run about 40 feets or more your town must have many on the streets ?how about a flag pole? in the yard sure would move out that town if i could not put up my ants good luck guy http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KG4WZN]

My connection is too slow to read all the post here so I will make my suggestion based on the idea it has not allready been made.

Seek the help of a voluntary lawyer listed with the ARRL who lives in your area.

73 de Monty & good luck... You can win this..

[kd5sdi]

The trouble with prb-1 is that the wording is very vague. Many municipalities have successfully trumped prb-1 in court because judges with no knowledege of radio theory see twenty feet as reasonable. After all, they are letting them have a tower they could just be assholes and prohibit them, is the way they see it. The current odds are about 50/50 when taking your case to court on prb-1.

[n0zu]

If you are an ARRL member
do not ask them to help.

They told me if I had any trouble putting up antennas to tell them and they would help.

well I did and they did not want to help.
instead they told me to get my own lawyer

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>I told them that I had payed my dues and i needed help because I did not have the money for hiring a lawyer, and they just laughed in my face ( so to speek) and told me that they did not have the time or the resorces to help me</span>

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>so do not ask the ARRL!!!!!!</span>

[kr4wm]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wb8rkq @ Oct. 31 2003,03:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well just put a 60 ft telaphone pole in and put a ant on that i just can not belive all this crap other people telling other people what to do the hell with them just put one up and dont listen to them you got to stand tall you realy dont need a tower just put a good vertical on top of your house and a dipole up for 75 meters thats what i do and it works great a good veritcal like a r-5 works great i had a beam up the same hight as my r-5 vertical and there wasnt that much different and for 75 meters heck a diploe will work great at 20 ft so you dont realy need a big tower and beams and all that stoff they allso got some great vertical ant, for 2 and 440 that work just as good as the high gain beams so you can allways go that way if you dont want to put up a tower but i would never let no one tell me what to do on my own land what the heck are you paying all those taxes on your land for if they dont want you to put up a tower over 20 ft then tell them to pay your land taxes for you then you will do what they say right stand tall well 73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Geez- I gave up on reading this reply after the first line. Hey guy- learn to use your SHIFT key, the period key, the comma key, etc. etc. You're using a keyboard, not a microphone, and we can't tell what you're trying to say! And what in the heck is a "veritcal" and a "diploe"? Do you mean "vertical" and
"dipole"? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KC8TCQ]

Well Robert, I'll try to arrange time to be there for the meeting, Leipsic isn't that far away, from here. One thing to remember though, unfortunately this is the heart of old NW Ohio, populated abd controlled by old fashioned stubborn people who don't like to do things that will help the communities they represent.


73 de Keith

[N8UZE]

To those bashing the ARRL. The ARRL has been quite clear in saying that they will supply you with information and the name of a competent attorney to handle the antenna battle. They have NEVER said that they would pay the costs. There is nothing in your membership rights and privileges that has ever said they would do so.


Now to those that keep saying amateur radio is just a hobby. Every time you say that, you give the government and commercial interests ammunition to take away our frequencies for their use and perhaps to eventually eliminate the amateur service. If it were not for the lobbying efforts of the the ARRL, amateurs would not exist today as the government tried at least twice to eliminate amateur radio.

[W1WFD]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Being a Ham and a Firefighter, Maybe you should check the height of your local Fire and Police antennas and make sure they are in compliance...... Sounds like they have to obey the silly rules too.....

[AE6IP]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8UZE @ Nov. 01 2003,10http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Now to those that keep saying amateur radio is just a hobby. #Every time you say that, you give the government and commercial interests ammunition to take away our frequencies for their use and perhaps to eventually eliminate the amateur service. #If it were not for the lobbying efforts of the the ARRL, amateurs would not exist today as the government tried at least twice to eliminate amateur radio.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I guess then that the ARRL, which calls amateur radio a hobby in its written publications, is working to defeat its own lobby effort.

It's a hobby, folks. The government knows so; the ARRL says so; and we do so.

[WA1ROI]

no more than 20 foot towers with commie's permission.. what a shame.. go to my web site www.qsl.net/wa1roi and scan my rhombic (home made) if you have the room enjoy worlwide coms without kissing butts. or you could be a profile in courage put up your antennas and let them take you to court.

good luck,,

fred

[k2lck]

In my 48+ years messing around with this hobby I have reached the following conclusions: 1. someone, sometime, tore up a politicians TV set, and probably busted the politicians chops by telling him that there was nothing he could do and that the ham was "within his rights". 2.the politicians make and bend their own laws, and egos are involved. 3. Judges need the local politicians to get re-elected, so by going that route you can expect things like building inspectors checking your plumbing, etc.
My advise, unless you love a fight: A. join the local political party B.run a brown nose job on all local politicians C. maintain a low profile, put up the antennas you wish and STAY OUT of the neighbors TV sets. If the above &copy; causes you to get grief from the town: MOVE! de K2LCK Ed

[N3OP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 30 2003,22:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">W8KT,

Be careful of advice you receive on line. Federal law does not always supercede state and local law, ...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Marty,

I have to disagree with you. #Federal law ALWAYS supercede state and local law in ALL cases. #Per the Constitution, any power not controlled by the Federal government is left to the states. #Since Congress passed PB-1, all states and local governments must base their tower restrictions laws on this law. #State and local governments CAN NOT over-rule Federal law.

[ka4ykc]

I have read all these posts with interest; since 99.9% of my operating is mobile, I can only sympathize with those that deal with the various antenna restrictions around the country.

As a pilot, (and there are quite a few hams that are licensed pilots) I am familiar with the work of the Aircraft Owners & Pilots Association. #The tireless efforts of the President and the staff at headquarters, as well as the resources of the assn. and its members (yes, they have a powerful political action committee) #have led to the salvation of many community and municipal airports despite the efforts of neighborhood do-gooders. These are people that have refused to recognize the absolute necessity of airport access. #Yes, flying is a hobby to many, but AOPA stresses the business and economic impact of keeping an airport open. #So one must emphasize, above all else, the public service good of amateur radio to a community, much as is done with an airport. #

My community didn't pay attention to the economic impact of having a municipal airport in the south end of our county; the county next door did, and as a result, over $50 million in direct economic impact and property tax potential was lost- the majority of the NASCAR teams now base their flight operations in Concord NC.

I have noticed from these posts that ARRL (of which I am a former member) will not get involved with the individual cases much past 'here's the brochures- knock yerself out- let us know how it goes and we'll print it in QST sometime if we need the filler'. #Am I reading this attitude correctly? #If so, too bad.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Even as powerful as AOPA is, they still couldn't keep Meigs Field in Chicago open- and that situation was very political.

Sorry for careening off topic to an extent. #Rant off.

KA4YKC

[w6em]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8UZE @ Nov. 01 2003,10<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To those bashing the ARRL. #The ARRL has been quite clear in saying that they will supply you with information and the name of a competent attorney to handle the antenna battle. #They have NEVER said that they would pay the costs. #There is nothing in your membership rights and privileges that has ever said they would do so.


Now to those that keep saying amateur radio is just a hobby. #Every time you say that, you give the government and commercial interests ammunition to take away our frequencies for their use and perhaps to eventually eliminate the amateur service. #If it were not for the lobbying efforts of the the ARRL, amateurs would not exist today as the government tried at least twice to eliminate amateur radio.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, at least I'm happy to see that you acknowledge that the ARRL employs lobbyists.

Those of us that are members, pay dues to support the organization that is supposed to be an advocatefor, above all else, the preservation of our "hobby". #Yes, it is a hobby, but with a strong national purpose. #That is clearly codified in Part 97.

The ARRL has made statements to the effect that antenna restrictions are the greatest threat to the continued existence of our pastime. (I'm not so sure, now that BPL is lurking in the wings).

Having said that, the League has now twice managed to get legislation introduced in Congress to defeat CC&Rs.

BUT......PRB-1 is what they want extended to CC&Rs.

Advocacy should include enforcement, if public agencies are not in compliance with state or federal law.

Most of the states that have adopted PRB-1 have codified into law prohibitions against arbitrary local government antenna limitations.

ARRL should be out there just like other civil rights advocacy organizations, filing lawsuits to stop abusive ordinances and codes before they are used to "beat up" individuals. #As I said in my earlier post, local governments have loads of attorneys on staff, so they know it costs them nothing to go to court. #"We dare you to take us to court" is their attitude. #And, individuals will be faced with 10s of thousands in legal expenses, just like Orin was in So. Texas.

The ARRL uses the judicial system, when warranted. #They just filed suit in the Federal Court of Appeals to have an FCC Report and Order thrown out. #And, the issue seems to be rather ho-hum: Part 15 device radiation levels at 24GHz.

Perhaps the ARRL can yet find a way to collectively file suit against all local governments with ordinances that force arbitrary height limitations on amateur antennas.

It would sure save a lot of us wanting to have a decent tower an awful lot of trouble and expense.

Just my two cents. #Hello Jim Haynie, are you listening out there?


Lee

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N3OP @ Nov. 01 2003,12:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 30 2003,22:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">W8KT,

Be careful of advice you receive on line. Federal law does not always supercede state and local law, ...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Marty,

I have to disagree with you. #Federal law ALWAYS supercede state and local law in ALL cases. #Per the Constitution, any power not controlled by the Federal government is left to the states. #Since Congress passed PB-1, all states and local governments must base their tower restrictions laws on this law. #State and local governments CAN NOT over-rule Federal law.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
PRB-1 (http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/amateur/prb/index.html) is an FCC MO&O, not a US statute.

US District Courts (http://www.michbar.org/opinions/district/2003/010303/17619.html) have found that PRB-1 does not grant a federal right to individuals and that PRB-1 specifies only a limited pre-emption of state or local law.

As far as Federal Law always overruling State law, I would recommend reading the supreme court ruling in Federal Maritime Commission v. South Carolina State Ports Authority

Where your argument goes wrong is in its understanding of what "power not controlled by the Federal government" means. In Constitutional law, this means those powers delegated to the branches of the federal government in the constitution. If the constitution doesn't give the federal government the right to pass laws in an area, then such laws, if they are passed, will be struck down by court challenge.

73,

Marty

[KG4WZN]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n0zu @ Nov. 01 2003,10:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> If you are an ARRL member
do not ask them to help.

They told me if I had any trouble putting up antennas to tell them and they would help.

well I did and they did not want to help.
instead they told me to get my own lawyer

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>I told them that I had payed my dues and i needed help because I did not have the money for hiring a lawyer, and they just laughed in my face ( so to speek) and told me that they did not have the time or the resorces to help me</span>

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>so do not ask the ARRL!!!!!!</span>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I assume you were refering to my post suggesting that they contact a voluntary attorney listed with the ARRL.

Please note I did not suggest that anyone contact the ARRL for assistsance. My suggestion is that a contact be made with a voluntary attorney who is an ARRL member.

You may be correct about the ARRL not having funding to go assist every member who finds a need for help. Your membership is not to join a legal pool however the ARRL has made provisions for regular amatuers who are local attorneys to offer their assistance to those who need it. These attorney will decide if they can assist. Sometimes one may not be able to help where another one can so just keep trying to find one who has the time and desire to apply their skills to the cause at hand.

73 de Monty

[w6th]

Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 30 2003,20:22)
W8KT,

Be careful of advice you receive on line. Federal law does not always supercede state and local law, and hams online tend to have an exagerated sense of how important amateur radio is seen to be by others, in addition to their misunderstanding of what the word service means to the FCC. Unquote:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

I also agree, be careful of advices on line.

I may add that ham radio is always mentioned how great this hobby is and I should have done this years ago. #You hobbyist are degrading ham radio and yourselves. You got it coming to you.

You see, they think your hobby is citizens band and you deserve to be treated as such. Wasn't CB called a hobby?

Make sure you shave and comb your hair before going before the board. Or at least take a bath. Let them know that you are a Amateur Radio Operator. Not a CB hobbyist.

# # Ain't this funny?

# # # # # # # # # # # # # Good luck

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # ...

[K3BRJ]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif I truly wish that I could be a fly on the wall, at the hearting you have to attend on 11.03.03, at 7:30, I've never run into this-but would suggest that you get in touch with Riley Hollingsworth, the FCC Chief Enforcement Officer, and have him contact the town's attorney. Other than that, go to www.fcc.gov/

Oh, have they thought of this, some people that may have wanted to move into your town-may not, and this would surely affect the local business economy, as well...keep me posted.

Good Luck. 73's,

Mike Gruteke-K3BRJ
Extra Class Licensee
LGL-Orleans County
k3brj@arrl.net http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6th @ Nov. 01 2003,16:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I may add that ham radio is always mentioned how great this hobby is and I should have done this years ago.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Would it be possible for you to translate the above into English. It makes no sense to me as written.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
You hobbyist are degrading ham radio and yourselves. You got it coming to you.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I bet even the venerable Hiram Percy Maxim refered to the hobby as a hobby. Certainly the ARRL does, and has for a long time.

If I were in a hobby that makes me as bitter as you seem to be, I would find a hobby that was more fun.

73,

Marty

[w6th]

------AE6IP----Marty----


If the shoe fits your foot, then you wear it.


73

. ... . ..

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6th @ Nov. 01 2003,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">------AE6IP----Marty----


# # # # #If the shoe fits your foot, then you wear it.


# # # # # # # # # # # # # # 73

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # . ... . ..[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
OK, then. Don't bother to translate it.

your loss.

73,

Marty

[N8XTZ]

Is it me or is the only thing that AE6IP knows how to do is flame? It almost sound's like he's FOR the town.

73's de
N8XTZ
Mark

[rgaughan]

In all fairness to the village, I must state that the 20 foot height is for freestanding towers. You can have a tower attached to your home and the tower AND antenna can be 20 feet above the house.

I think your solution is with the ordinance itself. Just connect your tower to your house with a length of guy wire. Then your tower can be 20 feet above your 20 foot house. 40 feet is not so bad. Good Luck

[n8tua]

Ohio Volunteer Counsel
OH (VC)
David A Looney, KA8ESQ
1735 S Main St
Akron, OH 44301-2428
Phone: (330)785-3337
FAX: (330)785-3331
E-mail: attorney@bright.net

OH (VC)
Thomas Lee, K8AZ
200 Public Sq Fl 35
Cleveland, OH 44114-2301
Phone: (216)241-3141
FAX:
E-mail:

OH (VC)
Harry L Riggs, KM4CS
50 E Rivercenter Blvd
Ste 1100
Covington, KY 41011-1683
Phone: (606)392-2500
FAX: (606)392-2517
E-mail: km4cs@aol.com

OH (VC)
Albert F Swartz, WD8OPI
149 E Market St
PO Box 112
Warren, OH 44481-1102
Phone: (330)394-1586
FAX:
E-mail:

OH (VC)
Robert M Winston, W2THU
600 Standard Building
Cleveland, OH 44113
Phone: (216)771-3314
FAX: (216)621-3225
E-mail: w2thu@nacs.net

OH (VC)
Russell T Mc Laughlin, K8LM
2217 Wisteria Way
PO Box 420
Avon, OH 44011-2614
Phone: (216)934-6543
FAX: (216)934-5098
E-mail:

OH (VC)
R T Bennett, K8MZ
275 Forward Pass Rd SW
Pataskala, OH 43062-8520
Phone: (740)927-8386
FAX: (740)927-2211
E-mail:

OH (VC)
Joseph A Palmer, KS8M
PO Box 111
Mechanicsburg, OH 43044-0111
Phone: (937)328-8073
FAX: (937)342-1653
E-mail: joe46@erinet.com

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N8XTZ @ Nov. 01 2003,19:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is it me or is the only thing that AE6IP knows how to do is flame? #It almost sound's like he's FOR the town.

73's de
N8XTZ
Mark[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's just you.

For the record, I'm for people in communities working together to solve problems.

[k4eez]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8KT @ Oct. 30 2003,13http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dear fellow amateur,

Did you know that the village of Leipsic has enacted ordinances limiting ALL towers to no more than 20 feet high? This includes your antenna! Did you know that you need a "special variance" to erect ANY tower in the village?.............

73

Bob Straley, W8KT
Christine Straley KC8QQJ[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


Gee #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

20 Ft?

what next?

Maybe the next thing added to zoning, Transmitt on serton times like a parking zone 7 am tell 5 pm?
And no stopping inbetween or we'll get a parking ticket

bloody hell !

but its still ok to put up a cell phone tower?

come on man !!! give us a break

I think, this whole thing is getting a bit out of hand
what shell we do and how can we keep everyone happy?

we dont complane to the Neighbors when thay are mowing the lawrn or trimming a tree or painting the house RED!!!



this sucks! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[KD7EFQ]

I am angered by the "it's just a hobby and go find another one" attitudes on here. If our ancestors in the 1700's had the same lay down & let it go attitudes. we'd still be flying the British union jack and paying heavier taxes to the British crown.

We still have a civil war on our hands today people! The only thing that has changed is the weaponry. Instead of bullets, it's money and power. This isn't just about Amateur Radio Antennas, it's about standing up for our individual freedoms and liberties. It's the same thing as the "Ten Commandments" monument that was removed from the Courthouse that was in the news so much. ( By the way, we had the same thing happen here in Casper Wyoming. Some non resident no gooder saw our Ten Commandmnts monument in our city park and made such a stink that the city council removed it too.)

Some no good people that have too few brains and too much free time just can't mind their own damn business. I think they need to change the last line of our " Pledge of Allegiance" to read " Freedom and Justice for all who can Afford it" #

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[kc8jwt]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The council passed them as an "emergency" measure. This got them enacted without the required readings to the public, so that citizens of Leipsic had no idea and NO SAY in the text of the ordinances. The reason given on the document was "This ordinance constitutes an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health and safety and, therefore, shall go into immediate effect upon passage thereof."[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Robert,

I did a little research this morning online and found some Ohio Revised Code pertaining to villages passing an ordinance. No where did I see an exemption for "emergency ordinaceces". If you want to look for yourself go to Anderson's Online Documentation (http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/oh/lpExt.dll?f=templates&fn=titlepage.htm). This lists all of Ohio's Revised Code. I would go to village hall and ask to see the meeting minutes of the meetings previous to the time they enacted the law. If they didn't read it on 3 different days it may not be a valid ordinance. Also, you may want to contact Attorney General Petro's office and ask them if villages are allowed to pass an "emergency ordinance" without the required 3 readings. If there isn't a provision for an emergency ordinance, I would have the Attorney General's office fax you or send you something on their letterhead stating that.

I hope you can put your towers up and get on the air.

73 de Matt/KC8JWT

Welcome To Ohio
[B]The Gestapo State


hey wait , if they dont make you follow there antenna rules the state will loose millions of dollars to repair our roads .

seems to be the way they get there way on every thing in Ohio The Gestapo state.

[w6em]

An ARRL official responded to me privately to "go to city hall and make my #case. #Threats get nowhere."

Again, an organization that is collectively supposed to be looking out for our best interests says, effectively, go as an individual and try to change the minds of a coven who have passed restrictions in spite of the fact that they violate what in many cases is state law? #

I have, in the case of someone with a two way internet antenna (which has FCC pre-emption protection) , and their city attorney did NOTHING. #This , in spite of presenting her with a copy of the appropriate federal regulations.

Now, the "threats get nowhere" part. #Just what, then is the League doing to Manassas, VA., officials? #The letter content published for all to see sure sounded like a threat or two to me.

The League needs to be more of an advocate for our pastime collectively.

Yes, they provide lists of "volunteer" counsel, but are also quick to point out that they aren't necessarily going to represent hams pro bono (for free) and that you would be expected to pay for their services.

Again, what is needed is a sort of reverse "class action" lawsuit, in states that have codified (and made into law) what PRB-1 has to say. #That way, local governments will have been ordered to exempt amateur radio antennas from capricious and arbitrary height limitations.

Lee

[ke4zhn]

Put some wires up in your trees, and work all the HF you want. You dont need a tower to enjoy amateur radio. Even vhf/uhf arrays inside an attic will do a fairly good job of working repeaters and some simplex. Many hams deal with no antennas at all mentality landlords and use hidden wires, or even tuning up rain gutters and such. Sure, its not the greatest, but it beats spending thousands of dollars in legal fees with no guarantee of success. Put up a flagpole and make a hidden vertical out of it. Where theres a will theres a way to operate regardless of ridiculous laws or silly CCR`s.

[kg6jse]

Obviously, they city thinks they are a homeowners association writing CC&R's.

Chances are, unless the city's public safety towers were specifically grandfathered they are in violation.

Same for cell phone sites. Does the city lease space to cell carriers to generate revenue?

[wixy]

there is one <VC> in the above list that batteled city hall and when all was said and done all of the village idiots err i mean politicians went home with their tails between their legs. a sweet victory for the ham who batteled city hall and WON

[k4eez]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD7EFQ @ Nov. 02 2003,02:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am angered by the "it's just a hobby and go find another one" attitudes on here. If our ancestors in the 1700's had the same lay down & let it go attitudes. we'd still be flying the British union jack and paying heavier taxes to the British crown.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif I hope that comment was not aimed at me about being British? coz I am

And I don't like all the rules, but, we have to go by them, We are all in the same boat together, So lets not start blaming each other by pointing fingers and do something and try and put an end to all this rubbish about restrictions and come up with some sort of plan of action for a compromise.

PRB 1 should have been made legal in all states not just 8 or 12, BUT ALL STATES
This is our only leg to stand on it is an FCC law meaning FEDRAL LAW thay make em we obey them simple.

how come some states local courts/ towns/mayors (whatever) still like to tinker with the idea that they can over rule or even Revoke this law?
it is our right to fight for this hobby and we will !!

WE ALL NEED TO TAKE THE STAND !!!

[KD7EFQ]

KG4OHH: Did you see your callsign listed anywhere in my post? The reference was to show how far we've degenerated from the original intent of our founding fathers. A Compromise that works is a very rare commodity in today's society. You have to start out with a tough stance. Why do you think attorneys suing for damages always plan on starting out asking for 4 times the amount you are willing to settle for. By the time it's all whittled down, if you think about being fair about your end of something, you'll be left with nothing, and probably owing someone. 73.

[K0RFD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N3OP @ Nov. 01 2003,12:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I have to disagree with you. #Federal law ALWAYS supercede state and local law in ALL cases.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Time to brush up on your knowledge of the Bill of Rights.

The 10th Amendment says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So according to the 10th Amendment, the only time Federal law trumps state law is if 1) the Federal law is implementing something specific in the Constitution, or 2) the State law itself is unconstitutional. #Federal greed for power seems to have come a long way since the Connecticut Compromise, huh?

As much as I am rooting for PRB-1, it's never faced a thorough constitutional challenge. #The best prayer it has is that the FCC regulates telecommunications, telecommunications are a form of interstate commerce, and the Constitution says that only Congress can regulate interstate commerce.

[w6em]

Wouldn't it be(at least) state law in those states that have codified an adaptation of PRB-1?

And, since the version here in Florida very clearly tells local government to reasonably accommodate amateur antennas, wouldn't any and all local government "arbitrary" height restriction ordinances be automatically pre-empted? #Especially if, in practice, they say "no exceptions" to the height limitation? #

But, then again, if no one challenges the legitimacy of the ordinances in court, they will probably just sit there on the books, waiting to make some code cop's day........

Hello W1AW......

[N7KIX]

I am outraged! as a ham for 18 years, amateurs give a VITAL part of ALL communications... What will these weenies do if they loose there local 911 service, or any type of emergency comm's to terrorist attacks, etc.?? come crying back to us to help..! hams are ALWAYS!! there when we are needed, EYE, am NO exception! i say, power up the 5 KW linears, and work some DX with those 100 ft towers, THEN, wait for THEM to come crying back to US, when a terrible storm levels there 911 radio towers... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KI4BDS]

Next thing they'll be saying the trees can't be over 20 ft tall.This is tiring but its people with nothing to do that make up laws. Karl GO THE EXTRA MILE, ITS NEVER CROWDED.

[wd8crt]

Leipsic is a dot in the middle of nowhere! They are out of their mind! What do they think they are protecting? Heck, there is no ban on grain silos... so erect a 100 footer and use that!

dit dit

[w8hdu]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8KT @ Oct. 30 2003,18:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you know that the village of Leipsic has enacted ordinances limiting ALL towers to no more than 20 feet high? This includes your antenna! Did you know that you need a "special variance" to erect ANY tower in the village?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Bob,

This concerns me from several sides. As a ham, I would hope that Leipsic Village Council would not mess with us. However, I have a business stake in this as well. As VP/CO of WLIO Television, does this mean that someone in that community can not put up an antenna to pick up WLIO or WLIO-DT. If that happens, I hope those on the Leipsic council will provide free cable service to those that want to watch our station but can't afford cable. To deny our signal to people within our coverage area could be a big issue.

Further, as EAS Chairman, and Communications Officer for the Allen County Office of Homeland Security, I can't speak enough about the dedicated hams that provide information to officials at local, county, and state levels. For Leipsic council to deny the hams the ability to communicate, especially on bands and modes requiring antenna height, would be damaging to their own community.

If this is a case of a neighbor not wanting an ugly tower, I sure hope they realize that their wants are not productive in the overall scope of society.

Fred Vobbe, W8HDU

[w6em]

City of Anna Maria, FL. Codes and Ordinances

Sec. 114-552. Definitions.

For purposes of this article, the following terms and phrases shall have the following meaning:

Accessory antennae shall mean antennae used for amateur radio, citizen's band, or other strictly non-commercial hobbyist use. "Accessory antennae" does not include private mobile service or PCS antennae or facilities as defined in this section. "Accessory antennae" and their supporting structures do not fall into the categories of "telecommunications equipment," #"telecommunications facility," or "telecommunications tower," as defined in this section.

Amateur radio refers to the amateur radio services, a non-commercial licensed radio service regulated under the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 47, Telecommunications, Part 80 to End.

Sec. 114-557. Accessory antennae.

Accessory antennae shall be located in strict accordance with the provisions of the city's land development code. The following types of accessory antennae and supporting structure installations require a special exception use permit: any accessory structure over 37 feet in height; commercial satellite dish antennae; antennae for the reception of television broadcasts, which are ten feet or more in height above the roof line; and private mobile service towers and antennae.

(Ord. No. 99-575, § 1(g), 4-27-99)

[w6em]

City of Holmes Beach, FL. #Codes and Ordinances
Article III District Regulation
A. Zoning Districts


3. Residential districts.

The provisions contained herein on residential zoning districts are intended to ensure that the location and design of residential areas are such that life and property are protected from manmade hazards.

# a). R-1AA single-family residential district; and
# b). R-1 single-family residential district.

# # #(5) Standards:

# # # (g) Density and height restriction:

# # # # #(ii) No building, structure or part thereof shall #exceed a total height of 36 feet above the crown of the street as measured at the front center of the property.

[w6em]

Section 166.0435 Florida Statutes #Amateur radio antennas; construction in conformance with federal requirements.--

(1) No municipality shall enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation which fails to conform to the limited preemption entitled "Amateur Radio Preemption, 101 FCC 2d 952 (1985)" as issued by the Federal Communications Commission. Any ordinance or regulation adopted by a municipality with respect to amateur radio antennas shall conform to the above cited limited preemption, which states that local regulations which involve placement, screening, or height of antennas based on health, safety, or aesthetic considerations must be crafted to reasonably accommodate amateur communications, and to represent the minimum practicable regulation to accomplish the local authority's legitimate purpose.


Hello, ARRL, where are you or, more aptly put, where have you been?

[W4TAT]

We were attacked here in Brevard County FL with a similar ordinance and am glad to say after being cited, and fighting for many months we have a new ordinance in our county that specifically exempts Federally licensed amateurs antennas from zoning height restrictions and permitting. I was cited and fined for antennas exceeding the current regs, our County wanted me to bear approximately $2000.00 in permit and inspection fees to seek a special use permit which most likely would be denied with no refund of the fees!!!! Absolutely communist I thought! So I sought legal advice from ARRL volunteer counsels and none seemed eager to take the case. I did some legal research and realized there was much more than PRB-1 available to help us fight this battle. I then brought the issue before our Board of County Commissioners on a public comments section of a regular meeting. I along with many others from the ham community explained the fact that our county appeared to be non-compliant with existing Federal and State statutes and we were willing to challenge them in a Federal court to force compliance if necessary. There are many Federal and State laws in addition to PRB-1 that can be used. Do the research for your local area and find them ALL! NO governmental entity wants to bear the costs of a legal battle they will most likeley lose! We then stated the additional facts: in our community amateur radio is a hobby for some but a public service for many. A valuable and FREE public service that would cost the taxpayers greatly to try and replace. I made sure I began educating the community as to what amateurs do in a regards to public service, I was amazed to learn most residents didnt even know what we do for the community let alone what the service is all about PR! PR! PR! Do the public Relations footwork and educate the community! Battle the issues, do the legal research and most important dont give up! We fought thru 6 hearings did 2 mailings to ALL amateurs in our county and spread the word at local clubs and on our local nets. With a large showing of supporters, not just amateurs but key community persons that are not licensed amateurs but realize the value of the amateur service to the community, YOU CAN BEAT THIS! Dont give up, and if you need some help on the legal research just drop me a line!
73
Bob
W4TAT

[n0ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N7KIX @ Nov. 01 2003,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What will these weenies do if they lose there local 911 service, or any type of emergency comm's to terrorist attacks, etc.??[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunately, most of the folks think they can pick up their Cell or PCS phone call for help. #These same folks don't understand that VHF, UHV, or HF radios will keep the lines of communication open when landlines connecting Cell tower fail. #

If we didn't learn anything from 911 (New York) we learned that phone and communications systems can become overloaded. #

Hope these folks learn to accomdate and encourage our "hobby" so they can take advantage of the "service and support" we can offer in times of crisis.

73

Good Luck http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[k4eez]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Nov. 03 2003,07:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N7KIX @ Nov. 01 2003,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What will these weenies do if they lose there local 911 service, or any type of emergency comm's to terrorist attacks, etc.??[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunately, most of the folks think they can pick up their Cell or PCS phone call for help. #These same folks don't understand that VHF, UHV, or HF radios will keep the lines of communication open when landlines connecting Cell tower fail. #

If we didn't learn anything from 911 (New York) we learned that phone and communications systems can become overloaded. #

Hope these folks learn to accomdate and encourage our "hobby" so they can take advantage of the "service and support" we can offer in times of crisis.

73

Good Luck http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thank you my, entire POINT !!

[k5lxp]

> #I am scheduled to appear in front of the Village of
> Leipsic council on Monday, November 3 #at 7:30 PM to
> again request a variance that will allow me to install
> my towers.

What happened at the meeting? #

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
k5lxp@arrl.net

[kc9esf]

You know, something doesn't seem right with everyones comments about this.

seems that some people think that there is an US and a THEM. they also think that we need to go against THEM instead of turning THEM into US.

What I would suggest is, that you bring up the fact that there is a regulation in the books that threatens the public safety, the welfare for the communities children, economic growth, and the very freedoms that the constitution is supposed to uphold. This regulation is depriving the community of much needed volunteer emergency services that taxpayers would have to pay for to replace. Volunteers have invested large ammounts of money into equipment for these emergency services and are now unable to help the community due to a mis-interpetation of current regulations. It should be the understanding of each individual that these volunteer emergency services are vital in the protection of our community and property and that regulations incorrectly restricting such services should be altered or ammended.

There, did I say anything about lawsuits? nope. Did I portray Amatuer radio correctly? I hope so. Will this motivate all those soccer moms who wanted the restrictions to want the restrictions removed? I again hope so.

Groups of people are only worried about their own little part of the world. If they think that an outside force might be affectuing their little piece, they will do something about it. Here we need to reduce the threat to them of lower property values due to towers, and greatly increase the threat of lack of response.

Done right, not only will we not look like the bad guy fighting to put up an ugly tower, but we will look like a dedicated contributor to the community.

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n0zu @ Oct. 31 2003,06:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[B]if it is like the town that I live in
they do not want people to have to look at your tower

and if you have enough money you can pay them off to let you put up a tower

but if you try to adk for legial councial from the ARRL
as a member

you get your toes steped on and they say go and find your own lawyer

I know I became a ARRL member and was told it I had any proublems,
that the local ARRL #member that was from Cedar Rapids IOWA would help

Boy was I miss led
So I droped my memeber ship with the ARRL

I relisted this year just to get QRZ this year but not impresed with that so I will drop after this year again

because If Iwas to ask for help again I figuer that I will get told to get my own laywer

So if the ARRL is not to help what is the use in being a member.

I guess it is QST???

so do not ask the ARRL for help They will not give it to you as they would not help me[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think you misunderstood what ARRL membership includes.

It does NOT guarantee free legal representation.
It never claimed to.

What do you MEAN you got your toes stepped on?
You mean they were unable to give you what you
wanted on a silver platter ?

The ARRL can give you a little bit of free help only.
They cannot totally represent you. #
You need a lawyer well versed in your local legal
situation which someone from outside your area cant do!


I also think you should keep up your ARRL membership
for other reasons. #They are the ONLY people standing in the way of Colin Powells kid, killing off ham radio. #Antennas wont matter if BPL lets "bombcast" turn the entire US electrical grid into a giant radio jammer.

Unless you want your entire radio experience to consist
of listening to static, its time for you to get off your
whining a** and help the ARRL stave off this BPL
nonsense.

You really quit ARRL because they wouldnt pick up the
tab on your lawyer ? #PUHLEEZE !

By the way, there is no "i" in legal.
One seeks legal counsel when going to battle with the city council.

And yes the ARRL mag is QST, QRZ is where ppl sit &
whine instead of getting off their overstuffed behinds.

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w6em @ Oct. 31 2003,15:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Before you all get worked up on the authority of PRB-1 over local governments, go the ARRL web site and read the 10/24 ARRL Letter story of Orin Snook, KB5F, the South Texas amateur who supposedly prevailed in Federal Court. #Did he "win"? #The ARRL makes it sound like he did. #I'm not so sure he did.

ARRL Letter 10/24 (http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/03/1024/)

After 10s of thousands in legal bills, 20-plus municipal criminal citations (which, by the way, weren't overturned by the Federal Court), and Orin's wife being fired from her city job, do you really think he won? #Sure, he can put up a tower, but look what it cost him.

Number one, municipalities have attorneys, code enforcement officers, etc. on retainer, so it doesn't cost them a dime to go to court to defend themselves. #Secondly, the Courts give government the benefit of the doubt that it's not purposefully harrassing or retaliating against a complainant as was clearly the situation in Texas.

So, throw state law at them, via their attorney, and they just smile and say, "it doesn't apply here," and off they go.

It's been happening here in several small cities in West Florida. #Holmes Beach and Bradenton Beach, for example, and I think Anna Maria as well. #They have ordinances limiting ANY structure to not more than 35 feet above the crown of the road.

If that weren't enough, Bradenton Beach, on November 4, will have on its ballot an advisory vote item where voters can give the city their opinion whether or not to grant any more variances to the 35 foot limit, irrespective of the reason.

And, Florida has had one of the earliest PRB-1 state adoptions period. #Go fancy that. #Hello, ARRL.

Part of the problem is that our ARRL is not picking up the legal tab and appealing the decisions, unless the court declares not only the ordinances null and void, but provides appropriate relief to the complainant and sanctions the governmental entity as well.

I'm no attorney, but have been told (by an attorney) that unless the decision is affirmed on appeal, it doesn't create a precedent. #And, the cost of litigation of this type should be TOTALLY borne by our ARRL. #After all, its in all of our best interests to have these types of ordinances or policies thoroughly stamped out......and the Boards, Commissions, and Councils that enacted them sanctioned or punished for having done so...after having been advised otherwise.

Quite frankly, the ARRL should be ACTIVELY SEEKING OUT such municipal ordinances, and filing suit in State or Federal Court, as appropriate, to get them trashed. #Not waiting until someone has to suffer.


Lee
W6EM
Bradenton, FL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Keep in mind that if BPL goes nationwide, antenna
issues will become moot.

The ARRL is puting everything they have into the fight
aginst BPL. #I think this is rightly so.

Priorities! #What good are antennas if we lose HF and
half of VHF ? #(Nobody is talking about harmonics yet)

Regarding the guy in TX:
By the time the smoke clears, he may be looking at an
$70,000 antenna. #I could buy a whole house for that!

Yeah the antenna situation sucks and needs to be
fought. #But lets make sure there is a reason to put
up antennas in the first place!

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n0zu @ Nov. 01 2003,07:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> If you are an ARRL member
do not ask them to help.

They told me if I had any trouble putting up antennas to tell them and they would help.

well I did and they did not want to help.
instead they told me to get my own lawyer

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>I told them that I had payed my dues and i needed help because I did not have the money for hiring a lawyer, and they just laughed in my face ( so to speek) and told me that they did not have the time or the resorces to help me</span>

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>so do not ask the ARRL!!!!!!</span>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Of COURSE they laughed in your face!

You made a foolish (and greedy) request.

They never promised to provide free court representation
when you joined.
They can give you a little help here and there.
For the little things they are quite good.

Unless they raise the dues to several thousand a year
they cant afford to offer free major representation to
every ham who has a legal scrape.

They can be very helpful on the little stuff through the
volunteer counsel program. Going into court is quite
another matter where you are asking them to supply you
with 20 grand of legal help.

You must admit, they did give you 1 piece of help and
it was the most important help they could give you,
DONT REPRESENT YOURSELF!

There is no way the ARRL can maintain a staff who is
up to date on laws in every state in the US.

You guys who are pissed off at the ARRL because they cant give you 20+ grand in legal fees should get a life!
You are no better than those CB'ers who are probably the
cause of this anti antenna hysteria.

[k4eez]

Here's an idea from my wife Gayle (KG4QOZ)

Maybe, and Just maybe, you could take some of what is posted on here, print them out and use it in your favor in conjuction with you plea for court?

Just an idea?

we are all watching for the outcome

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka4ykc @ Nov. 01 2003,13:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I must agree with the poster.
Join the local political party.
Once you are a bigshot, you will have the most effective
baseball bat over the head of the politicians.
These politicians will OWE you BIGTIME!

Keep in mind that this "hobby" is what shook the bugs out of TV, FM, SSB, perfected several networking
protocols (the old Ricochet Network used AX.25), and
invented radio astronomy.

When given VHF spectrum that the experts of the day
believed was useless, this "hobby" made VHF & UHF
work. Garage tinkerers in ham radio made everything
from the radios in police cruisers, to cell phones,
to wireless computer cards possible.

Literally millions of dollars a year are saved by the
combined government agencies in the US by using hams.

This is 1 hobby that pays for itself.

By the way, every governmental agency that uses ICS
(most do) generate a statistic each year of how much
money they save by using hams. We really should be
contacting agencies and harvesting this data each year
to use as justification for our spectrum and exceptions
to stupid antenna laws.

Im following a case of a guy I know whos housing association has told him that the antennas on his car violate HOA policy and are threatening to fine him.
Ill let you know how it all pans out.

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KG4OHH @ Nov. 02 2003,13:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD7EFQ @ Nov. 02 2003,02:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am angered by the "it's just a hobby and go find another one" attitudes on here. If our ancestors in the 1700's had the same lay down & let it go attitudes. we'd still be flying the British union jack and paying heavier taxes to the British crown.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif I hope that comment was not aimed at me about being British? #coz I am

And I don't like all the rules, but, we have to go by them, We are all in the same boat together, So lets not start blaming each other by pointing fingers and do something and try and put an end to all this rubbish about restrictions and come up with #some sort of plan of action for a compromise.

PRB 1 should have been made legal in all states not just 8 or 12, BUT ALL STATES
This is our only leg to stand on it is an FCC law meaning FEDRAL LAW thay make em we obey them simple.

how come some states local courts/ towns/mayors (whatever) still like to tinker with the idea that they can over rule or even Revoke this law?
it is our right to fight for this hobby and we will !!

WE ALL NEED TO TAKE THE STAND !!![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
One minor problem in this:

FCC does not and can not make law.
Congress makes law.
FCC enforces it.

If someone can manage to tie national security to ham
radio better, ("If you are against ham radio antennas
then you are against national security") then congress
might be more helpful.

We dont have a lot of time to play the homeland security
card before people bore with the concept. People are
fickle.

People are also about to start flying more as the
economy improves and thus will collide with secutity
issues more. People are also just starting to realize the
rammifications of the Patriot Act and the concept of
homeland security may soon be a tad less popular than
it has been in the past. If we are gonna milk this thing, we better do it now.

[kg6ath]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC0LNU @ Nov. 03 2003,12:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N7KIX @ Nov. 01 2003,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What will these weenies do if they lose there local 911 service, or any type of emergency comm's to terrorist attacks, etc.??[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunately, most of the folks think they can pick up their Cell or PCS phone call for help. #These same folks don't understand that VHF, UHV, or HF radios will keep the lines of communication open when landlines connecting Cell tower fail. #

If we didn't learn anything from 911 (New York) we learned that phone and communications systems can become overloaded. #

Hope these folks learn to accomdate and encourage our "hobby" so they can take advantage of the "service and support" we can offer in times of crisis.

73

Good Luck http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think you will find that until 9-11, even the government
thought us obsolete.

After 9-11, the govt was in quite a hurry to absorb us
into homeland security.

I note the posting from FL about PR.
Very important.
Everyone thinks their cell phones will still work.

Likely the cells will fail 1st because of:
1) falling towers
2) traffic