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KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 04:24 PM
All 3 work all 5 hf bands, what one would you take, and why ?
I have located both the Tennadyne T 6 and the Mosley TA 53 locally used.
I can get the Tennadyne T6 for 200.00, or the Mosley TA 53 used for 300.00
The Hex Beam ( I would buy the KIO version of the Hex Beam) will be over 600.00
I have NEVER ever been able to find a used Hex Beam locally, of any make.

I have a Cush Craft A3 S with 40 meter add on kit I have decided to sell, and not put up.
I must have a warc band capable beam, especially with the sunspots coming back.

I had a Cush Craft ASL 2010 Log Periodic that came along for the ride when I bought my tower, but it has a really big turning radius, and it's 10 sq ft windload is too close to my towers limits.

I have a 55 ft Aluma Tower, but many trees/power lines around, so raising and lowering the antenna will be a hassle.

In fact I MAY have to rent a bucket truck to even erect the antenna.

WB2WIK
12-25-2011, 04:58 PM
I'd go for the TA-53, presuming it's in perfect condx and everything's there and labeled.

Why? Because it's a better beam. It has more gain, a tighter pattern and better F/B.

Then, getting a beam up 55' blows away almost anything else you could do (with wires, verticals, etc) so any kind of beam will be an improvement over not having a beam.

K7MH
12-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Hex beam...

a beam that performs nearly on par with a full scale two element Yagi

I'd go with the TA-53 too even if I had to buy it new.

KO6WB
12-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Kind a hard to tell really. The T6 has the greatest turn ratio, the hex beam the least. The F/B ratio for the TA-53 is not impressive. The T6 is better in this regard and the Hex beam doesn't really tell you much about theirs. The gain is slightly lower for the Hex Beam and the Mosley seems to put out better numbers then the T6. This could more likely be attributed to marketing then actual performance. The Hex Beam and the T6 would not require fine tuning or so say the Hex Beam folks. If I had to choose (and I wish I could) then I might favor the T6, but that's just me and other folks will have their choices as well.
Good luck on your decision, either way it would be a good one to make.
Hope this helps
73
Gary

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 05:33 PM
I'd go for the TA-53, presuming it's in perfect condx and everything's there and labeled.

Why? Because it's a better beam. It has more gain, a tighter pattern and better F/B.

Then, getting a beam up 55' blows away almost anything else you could do (with wires, verticals, etc) so any kind of beam will be an improvement over not having a beam.
That's interesting, you own a T6, and I read where you have installed the TA 53.

KC8VWM
12-25-2011, 05:45 PM
At first glance, the hexbeam seems more expensive, but after you factor in the cost of a tower and the beefy rotor system required to operate other antennas, the hexbeam wins.

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 05:53 PM
At first glance, the hexbeam seems more expensive, but after you factor in the cost of a tower and the beefy rotor system required to operate other antennas, the hexbeam wins.
Very very true! Nearly every Ham I have talked to loves their KIO Hex Beams, for this exact reason. I live near Tampa Florida, and the KIO Hex Beams are very popular here.
But I already have a 55 FT Crank up, fold over, Aluma Tower. Plus, I already own a Ham 4 rotor, and I am not deed or antenna restricted. My problems are power lines/trees.
I need to measure my trees heights, and make sure my 55 ft tower will put me over the top of them.
If not, the smaller Hex Beam may be better for me, since it's small boom will put it further away from the trees ?

WB2WIK
12-25-2011, 06:26 PM
That's interesting, you own a T6, and I read where you have installed the TA 53.

I actually have a T8 now, although I still have the T6 as well. Not a lot of difference, although the T8 has a smoother SWR curve across the bands. In that regard, though, the T6 was good enough.

I've installed lots of Mosley beams. When new, they're perfect. When used, I'd be very sure whoever took it apart did a good job of that and labeled everything, as the color coded tapes they use to show you how to assemble it can wear off and then you have a mystery pile of stuff.

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 06:38 PM
Hex beam...


I'd go with the TA-53 too even if I had to buy it new.
I can get the Mosley TA 53 used in excellent condition for 300.00. Mosley has an upgrade for it called the TA 54 that extends the boom out to 21 feet, giving you 4 elements on 5 bands !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Turning radius is 16.7 ft, maybe I can manage that ?
The dam thing weighs 80 lbs though, but wind load is a manageable 6.7 sq ft.

I heard one of these on 17 meters the other day, some Ham in Colorado had one. He started off with the TA 53, and bought the TA 54 kit. He said the difference was worth it, and he really liked the stock TA 53 too.
Next year, he plans on the 40 meter add on for the TA 54.
My GOD, 4 active elements on 5 bands, and 40 meters too, and built to survive Armageddon. What's not to like about the Mosley TA 54 ?

I listen to this Ham talk about his antenna. He had a Hy Gain TH 3 mk 2, but wanted 5 bands, so he bought the Mosley TA 53.
He felt the Mosley TA 53 talked as good as the TH 3 Hy Gain, was more broadbanded, but had poor front to back ratio in comparison to the Hy Gain.
He was saying the TA 54 extension kit helped the front to back ratio a bit over the TA 53.

WB2WIK
12-25-2011, 06:42 PM
I think if you want a great F/B you need a monoband beam or a SteppIR, which can be adjusted for an amazing F/B (at the sacrifice of some gain).

The logs aren't that great, in my experience (for F/B) but it's not the most important thing for me, so I don't care, much.

Check out the TA-53 up close and visually if you haven't already done that. "Excellent condition" can sometimes mean it's shiny and not oxidized, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can put it back together...

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 06:46 PM
I actually have a T8 now, although I still have the T6 as well. Not a lot of difference, although the T8 has a smoother SWR curve across the bands. In that regard, though, the T6 was good enough.

I've installed lots of Mosley beams. When new, they're perfect. When used, I'd be very sure whoever took it apart did a good job of that and labeled everything, as the color coded tapes they use to show you how to assemble it can wear off and then you have a mystery pile of stuff.
Thanks, I will check to be sure. He told me on the phone he marked everything.
IF I do go with the Mosley TA 53, and my clearances to my trees etc work out, I will buy the TA 54 extension kit for a 4 element beam on all 5 bands.
I heard one on 17 recently, and I just love the idea of 4 active elements on all 5 bands.

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 06:53 PM
I think if you want a great F/B you need a monoband beam or a SteppIR, which can be adjusted for an amazing F/B (at the sacrifice of some gain).

The logs aren't that great, in my experience (for F/B) but it's not the most important thing for me, so I don't care, much.

Check out the TA-53 up close and visually if you haven't already done that. "Excellent condition" can sometimes mean it's shiny and not oxidized, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can put it back together...
I can't afford a SteppIR, even used, but would love to have one! IMHO, they dominate the bands for multiband beams.
There is a lot of lightning here in Central Florida, and that concerns me with the motors and all.

Trees are a problem here, the longer the boom, the closer that puts me to them. Maybe the KIO Hex Beam with it's shorter boom would be better, since it will be further away from the trees ? What do you think ?

KB4MNG
12-25-2011, 06:54 PM
My vote goes to the kio hex beam. At this time, I m putting together a tower for a kio hex beam. It will only be 30-40 ft but hear they work ok at that height. I've done tons of research, seems its hard to beat a hex beam. Hope to order one in Feb..

kb4mng

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 07:30 PM
My vote goes to the kio hex beam. At this time, I m putting together a tower for a kio hex beam. It will only be 30-40 ft but hear they work ok at that height. I've done tons of research, seems its hard to beat a hex beam. Hope to order one in Feb..

kb4mng
Well, It seems darn near everywhere I go where there are groups of Hams here in Central Florida, the KIO Hexbeam is the topic of antenna conversation. I was at the recent Tampa Hamfest, eating some excellent Potato Soup in the eating area, and I heard Hams at the next table talking antennas! I clearly overheard "Why dont you just get you a KIO Hex beam" when one Ham asked for an antenna suggestion for his small QTH.
They are extremely popular here in the Tampa Bay Florida area. In fact, the Aluma Tower Rep for my area has a KIO Hex Beam, and also suggested I get one.
Real Estate here in Florida aint cheap, and many of us Hams just don't have room for bigger antennas, and elaborate towers.

I must say I am embarrassed that I only recently found out there are other Hex Beam makers besides KIO. I honestly thought they invented the Hex beam, because you never hear anything about any other Hex Beam in my area.
I now understand Traffie was first with the Hex beam, and the KIO is a bit larger, and computer modeled for better performance.
Somehow, I had a picture in my mind of a spider beam for the Hex Beam, until I saw one at N4XK's place.
Earl (N4XK) just loves his little KIO Hex Beam, and remarked at how easy it was to assemble, and how great it performs, for what it is.
Earl found out about the KIO Hex Beam by local word of mouth, because so many Hams here in Central Florida use them.

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 08:15 PM
I actually have a T8 now, although I still have the T6 as well. Not a lot of difference, although the T8 has a smoother SWR curve across the bands. In that regard, though, the T6 was good enough.

I've installed lots of Mosley beams. When new, they're perfect. When used, I'd be very sure whoever took it apart did a good job of that and labeled everything, as the color coded tapes they use to show you how to assemble it can wear off and then you have a mystery pile of stuff.
I WISH I could have installed the Cushcraft ASL 2010 Log I got when I bought my Tower.
But the long elements, and the 10 sq ft windload scared me.
It is going to be a chore just getting an antenna UP much less back down here, because of the trees and power lines.
The trouble free nature of Log Periodics greatly appeals to me, put them together, put them up, and leave them up.

At the Tampa hamfest, Joe Clement was conducting a free, antenna seminar. He used to work for Cush Craft.
He told me Cush Craft was 'proud' of the ASL 2010, and he was convinced they got every drop of performance out of it they could.
You don't hear as many ASL 2010's on the air as the Tennadyne Logs, but owners love them.

Still, with the introduction of the 21 foot long Mosley TA 54, Mosley seems to have raised the bar for 5 band antenna performance. Even assuming some trap loss, 4 active elements on all 5 bands, and the ability to add 40 meters, makes a strong case for the Mosley TA 54 - IF I can make it work here ?
I am almost sure I will not have room for the 40 meter add on kit, but still, it is a Mosley, a "lifetime antenna", and I may move someday. But honestly, if I ever do move, it will be to a place where I will have enough room for a BIG Antenna, or several of them.

I have heard it said the Tennadyne T6 has great front to side ratio, and even the little KIO Hex Beam has good front to back rejection.
Mosley admits it pissed away the front to back ratio on the TA 53, to favor gain and bandwidth. But the TA 54 is supposed to be a little better, from what the Ham in Colorado said on the air.
He started out with the TA 53, and upgraded to the TA 54 add on kit.

NH7RO
12-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Although I'd probably also favor the 4 el on 5 bands route I'd still strongly consider the KIO Hex. With its smaller footprint and @23 lbs weight (IIRC) perhaps you could mount it 10-20 feet higher atop your tower? That might be a great way to go, too. A hex at 70 feet or so.... just saying.

73, Jeff

KA7NIQ
12-25-2011, 08:59 PM
Although I'd probably also favor the 4 el on 5 bands route I'd still strongly consider the KIO Hex. With its smaller footprint and @23 lbs weight (IIRC) perhaps you could mount it 10-20 feet higher atop your tower? That might be a great way to go, too. A hex at 70 feet or so.... just saying.

73, Jeff
The Aluma Towers are "self supporting", and I don't know how much you can stick a mast above them.
I do not want any guy wires. But you are correct, the extra height I could possibly get with the KIO Hex Beam may be the difference maker.
Trees are all over my neighbors homes, and the branches stick into my yard.
I have not measured the trees for height (how can you do that from the ground) but wonder how much effect they will have on an antenna ?
I know they are not 70 feet high!
Perhaps a KIO Hex beam high over the tops of the trees would perform as well or better then a larger antenna compromised by the trees ?

LOL, I TRY to buy used antennas, simply because the economy here in Tampa is not great. I clean roofs for a living, and my business is way down from what it should be.
Though I have looked for a used KIO Hex beam, I have never ever seen a used on for sale.
I know they are selling the Chit out of them, because so many Hams here in Central Florida have them.
People must like them, because they seem to keep them.
Most of the used antennas I have been offered are situation where the Ham bought them from the widow of a S/K with plans that never materialized to put them up.
Or, the used tennadyne T 6 belongs to an elderly ham who is ILL, and is downsizing to a KIO Hex Beam.
He also has a Force 12 C 4 he is selling, but it is much too big for me.
He replaced the tennadyne T 6 with the Force 12 C 4 because it has 40 meters.

WB2WIK
12-25-2011, 09:24 PM
Most beams have a good front to side ratio. On the Tennadyne logs, it's impressive; I can null an S9 signal into the noise.

But F/B, not so much. Maybe 15 dB or so. Not like my monoband VHF yagis, which seem to be closer to 25 dB. But, that's life. Big difference between ionospheric signals and tropospheric ones, also; plus, the VHF beams are a few to several wavelengths above ground, which the HF beam isn't.

I'd put up whatever fits and have fun. You can very accurately estimate tree height using a reference (like a 6' tall man standing in the siting path) and simple geometry, and get within a few percent.

But unless you plan to trim trees, it is what it is; just put up the tower and find out.

NH7RO
12-26-2011, 12:26 AM
Chris; A Tennadyne or Mosley for $200 or $300 would be awfully tempting to me even though it may be years before I can be in a spot where I could erect a 55' tower. I'm glad I pointed out at least the possiblity of placing a hex higher above your tower because of the lighter weight and very minimal wind load. I have also been curious about how much better a hex of any variety performs at 50-60-70 feet or so which is something you'd be able to find out firsthand for yourself as well as for me:o

Unfortunately, the possiblility of finding a used hex most anywhere is probably nil.

One thing that you might consider is buying a KIO or DXE hex piecemeal (buy the hub, then the feedpoint tower, spreaders and so on) as you can afford. They can be homebrewed as well but it's doubtful whether or not you'll actually incur much of a savings if you want to build one that will weather the weather over the long haul.

Great thread that I'll stay tuned to, for sure!

That F/S factor of the Tennadyne is amazing---and would make the choice all the more dificult if I was in your shoes.
73, Jeff

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 01:34 AM
Chris; A Tennadyne or Mosley for $200 or $300 would be awfully tempting to me even though it may be years before I can be in a spot where I could erect a 55' tower. I'm glad I pointed out at least the possiblity of placing a hex higher above your tower because of the lighter weight and very minimal wind load. I have also been curious about how much better a hex of any variety performs at 50-60-70 feet or so which is something you'd be able to find out firsthand for yourself as well as for me:o

Unfortunately, the possiblility of finding a used hex most anywhere is probably nil.

One thing that you might consider is buying a KIO or DXE hex piecemeal (buy the hub, then the feedpoint tower, spreaders and so on) as you can afford. They can be homebrewed as well but it's doubtful whether or not you'll actually incur much of a savings if you want to build one that will weather the weather over the long haul.

Great thread that I'll stay tuned to, for sure!

That F/S factor of the Tennadyne is amazing---and would make the choice all the more dificult if I was in your shoes.
73, Jeff
Height makes a big difference, especially on 20 meters, on 17 meters too. 55 feet is not even a wavelength on 17 or 20 meters. A Ham I know replaced an aging old KLM Tribander with a "Temporary Rotatable Dipole" on his 80 ft tower.
The KLM became strangely intermittent, so he took it down, planned to get a brand new tribander.
That was 4 years ago, the dipole is still up!
He talks DX all over with the rotatable dipole up at 80 feet.

I would sure like to get my antenna up higher then my 55 foot tower. I am just not sure it will be OK to extend a pole 15 or 20 feet out of the top of my tower, even with a lightweight KIO Hex Beam ?
I guess I could call Aluma Tower to check and be sure, but off hand, I don't think it is safe to do so, with an unguyed tower.

K1ZJH
12-26-2011, 01:53 AM
I've run a CL-33, CL-36 and monobanders from the same location for years. They've all been replaced with a KMA 8 element log.
The log definately does not work as well as the CL-33 or three element monobanders. Gain is lower, and the front to back
ratio is poorer, and being able to eliminate QRM off the back of the antenna is a big plus on the east coast. Logs are good
compromise antennas, but an 8 or 6 element HF log isn't going to be a band opener or pile up breaker.

Pete

NH7RO
12-26-2011, 01:59 AM
OK, I can understand your concern, so maybe only 5-10 feet max mast above the tower instead. With the general upswept construction at least your 17 and 20M elements would be something like 63-70+ feet above ground, right? Even the 10m element would be at 60' with a 5 foot mast.

Also, any possibilty of some phillystran (sp?) guy ropes for your self-supporting tower (or maybe that's not a good idea to begin with).?

WA4OTD
12-26-2011, 02:00 AM
The TA does look nice! WHen compared to the SteppIR the price difference makes you think twice!


I'd go for the TA-53, presuming it's in perfect condx and everything's there and labeled.

Why? Because it's a better beam. It has more gain, a tighter pattern and better F/B.

Then, getting a beam up 55' blows away almost anything else you could do (with wires, verticals, etc) so any kind of beam will be an improvement over not having a beam.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 02:43 AM
I've run a CL-33, CL-36 and monobanders from the same location for years. They've all been replaced with a KMA 8 element log.
The log definately does not work as well as the CL-33 or three element monobanders. Gain is lower, and the front to back
ratio is poorer, and being able to eliminate QRM off the back of the antenna is a big plus on the east coast. Logs are good
compromise antennas, but an 8 or 6 element HF log isn't going to be a band opener or pile up breaker.

Pete
I know, many of the guys on Tower Talk are not fond of Log Periodic's either, considering them at best 2 element beams.
I never heard of KMA, does that stand for Kiss My Azz, LOL
Or, did you mean KLM ?

I know it can really really suck to replace an antenna with another one, and be disappointed. All that hard work and expense, only to find out you have been Had. Back in my 11 Meter days in the early 70's, a friend had a 5 element Hy Gain Long John Yagi on a 24 foot boom. It was honestly rated for 8.5 db DBD.
It worked very well, but he read the CB Antenna ads, and bought a 5 element 31 foot long Wilson CB Yagi rated at 15.5 DBD Gain, LOL
After a lot of work, we got the big Wilson up, and surprise, surprise, surprise!
The little 5 element Hy Gain smoked it.
My friend was so very disappointed, and could not understand why the smaller 5 element Hy Gain could outperform a 6 Element Wilson antenna on a longer boom.

Honestly, at that time, neither could I. Finally, we came across a Ham who explained the Hy Gain was designed by real antenna engineers on an antenna test range. The Wilson was a cut and try design in comparison, designed in the Nevada desert, probably by the advertising department.

My friend licked his wounds, and we replaced the bigger Wilson Yagi with the smaller, but better performing Hy Gain.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 03:06 AM
OK, I can understand your concern, so maybe only 5-10 feet max mast above the tower instead. With the general upswept construction at least your 17 and 20M elements would be something like 63-70+ feet above ground, right? Even the 10m element would be at 60' with a 5 foot mast.

Also, any possibilty of some phillystran (sp?) guy ropes for your self-supporting tower (or maybe that's not a good idea to begin with).?
OMG, I read your call as N7HRO (Ham Radio Outlet) instead of NH7RO LOL
I am gonna call Aluma Tower this week, to ask them.

Hey, here is an idea for me, and a possible answer to my tree problems. How about simply turning a 5 band beam antennas elements Vertical, or at a 45 degree angle ?

Perhaps that is what I could do ? I wonder if and how well that will work ?
I have plenty of vertical space.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 03:55 AM
I found this on Tower Talk, it seems it may be ok to use a triband antenna Vertically ?
Hell, what is to stop someone from turning the dam thing at a 45 degree angle ?
The 45 degree angle may help some with tower interference, and traps filling with water, plus it will reduce horizontal turning radius.

The ultimate gain for a vertically polarized Yagi appears to be less, but look at the low angle gain of the vertically polarized yagi ?

Here are some EZNEC numbers for a three element Yagi
turned either vertically of horizontally.

Height ___ Horz Antenna ______ Vert Antenna ____ Gain Difference
20 ______ 9.6 dBi at 36 deg ___ 4.8 at 17 deg ______ 4.8 dB
30_______11 dBi at 28 deg _____ 5.7 dBi at 15 deg __ 5.3 dB
35 _____ 11.6 dBi at 25 deg ____5.9 dBi at 13 deg __ 5.7 dB
40 _____ 11.9 dBi at 23 deg ___ 6 dBi at 12 deg ____ 5.9 dB
80 _____ 12.7 dBi at 12 deg ___ 8 dBi at 9 deg _____ 4.7 dB
100 ____ 12.9 dBi at 10 deg ___ 8.8 dBi at 8 deg ___ 4.1 dB
120 ____ 12.9 dBi at 8 deg ____ 9.4 at 7 deg _______ 3.5 dB
150 ____ 13 dBi at 7 deg ______ 10.1 dBi at 6 deg __ 2.9 dB
200 ____ 13.2 dBi at 5 deg ____ 10.8 dBi at 5 deg __ 2.4 dB
300 ____ 13.1 dBi at 3 deg ____ 11.6 dBi at 3 deg __ 1.5 dB
- - - - -

This is only part of the story, however. Look at the angle for peak gain
for heights of 80 feet or less. Which is more useful for DXing? It is also
useful to compare the difference in gain between the two antennas as a
function of vertical angle. You will find a dramatic difference in favor of
the vertical antenna at low angles, which are precisely the takeoff angles
needed for opening and closing bands and for minimizing the number of hops
over really long distances, such as from the Pacific to Europe. Mounting
the yagi vertically is not a panacea, but in some circumstances makes a big
difference.

73, Ward N0AX

Back in my old 11 meter days, we used to take Hy Gain Long John 5 element beams, and place the old Alliance U 100 rotors in the boom, to turn them from vertical to horizontal. You could listen to DX Stations, and simply adjust your antenna elements orientation for the best overall signal (Wave Angle)

I never thought of turning a triband yagi's elements vertical because I have always had the horizontal room to swing a large yagi.
But vertical orientation of the elements will solve that horizontal turning radius problem. Plus, since my tower is only 55 feet, the computer numbers suggest I will get better low angle gain with vertically oriented elements.
Most trapped tribanders have biggest elements only 27 feet long, so that is only 13.5 feet vertically down from the top of the 55 ft tower.

I wonder if and how vertically polarized elements effect wind load, anyone know ?

K1ZJH
12-26-2011, 04:48 AM
I know, many of the guys on Tower Talk are not fond of Log Periodic's either, considering them at best 2 element beams.
I never heard of KMA, does that stand for Kiss My Azz, LOL
Or, did you mean KLM ?

No, KMA Antennas. They have several reviews on the eHam website.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1063

In fact, Ed recently discountinued manufacturing the KMA
log line about a month ago. I reviewed some of his antennas for CQ Magazine and CQ VHF. I'm running KMA logs from from
14 through 1300 MHZ, including both veritical and horizontal polarization on VHF/UHF. Comparing a HF long on a short boom
to a two element beam is probably close to reality. I'm not sorry I went that route, since it allowed me to go from three towers
down to one fold-over Rohn. Being retired means I can beat the crowds when DXpeditions start operating, and that alone
is a 10dB advantage :) All my friends who climbed towers are now handicapped, moved to warmer climates, or alas: silent keys.

Pete

NH7RO
12-26-2011, 05:35 AM
I was just about to mention KMA antennas as they've been around for a good number of years (although I've never owned one I used to think about having a KMA Big Six 6M beam back in my early 6M days).

Speaking of 6M, though a tad off-topic, K6MIO/KH6 used to use a diagonally mounted Yagi (IIRC) on 6m. He told me one time that it helped avoid TVI problems with his neighbors (about 10 years ago before the profusion of cable/satellite). He also said it didn't matter much about the polarization as DX signals were arriving sort of scrambled over the long propagation paths anyway, FWIW.

I suppose a vertically polarized TA53 would be fine for DX come to think of it (but might be down considerably on short-haul hz polarized signals.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 05:50 AM
No, KMA Antennas. They have several reviews on the eHam website.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1063

In fact, Ed recently discountinued manufacturing the KMA
log line about a month ago. I reviewed some of his antennas for CQ Magazine and CQ VHF. I'm running KMA logs from from
14 through 1300 MHZ, including both veritical and horizontal polarization on VHF/UHF. Comparing a HF long on a short boom
to a two element beam is probably close to reality. I'm not sorry I went that route, since it allowed me to go from three towers
down to one fold-over Rohn. Being retired means I can beat the crowds when DXpeditions start operating, and that alone
is a 10dB advantage :) All my friends who climbed towers are now handicapped, moved to warmer climates, or alas: silent keys.

Pete
I see Pete, and several elderly Hams I know here in Florida have went to the Logs for simplicity. As One Ham put it " I don't climb towers as easily at 75 years of age as I once did"
The Log is simplicity in itself, nothing likely to go wrong, or out of whack.
And, I am sure all hams reading what you posted will appreciate your honesty about a Logs performance.
Several have reported the 6 and 8 element Logs to be roughly about equal to a small tribander, like perhaps a cushcraft A3 or a hy gain th 3 jr.
Some feel the ability to cover 5 bands is worth the small loss of performance vs a 3 element triband yagi.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 06:03 AM
I was just about to mention KMA antennas as they've been around for a good number of years (although I've never owned one I used to think about having a KMA Big Six 6M beam back in my early 6M days).

Speaking of 6M, though a tad off-topic, K6MIO/KH6 used to use a diagonally mounted Yagi (IIRC) on 6m. He told me one time that it helped avoid TVI problems with his neighbors (about 10 years ago before the profusion of cable/satellite). He also said it didn't matter much about the polarization as DX signals were arriving sort of scrambled over the long propagation paths anyway, FWIW.

I suppose a vertically polarized TA53 would be fine for DX come to think of it (but might be down considerably on short-haul hz polarized signals.
I am leaning very much towards the Mosley TA 53, and will probably put it up horizontally, and see if it "fits" w/o hitting trees as it rotates. If it does, I guess I will have to run it vertically, or sell it.
One nice thing about buying used is you can usually get all or most of your money back when you sell, if you buy stuff correctly.
I just drool over the Mosley TA 54, which is the antenna the Mosley TA 53 becomes with the add on kit.
It gives a Ham a 4 element beam on all 5 HF Bands with a 21 ft vs a 14 ft boom.

Hell, I have a little cush craft A3s with the 40 meter add on kit, I ought to turn that little SOB vertical, see what happens ?
That will make a vertical dipole centered at 55 feet for 40 meters, and maybe I can bug the Italians at night on 40 ?

WB2WIK
12-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Installing an HF beam vertically polarized is not without its complications. For one, the tower and supporting mast, both vertical and conductive, interfere with the operation of the beam (pattern, gain, tuning). The "modeled" numbers may not include the influence of a conductive support system, and I suspect they don't.

Also, the lower elements (below the boom) need to be really well attached or they can vibrate loose and literally fall off. I've seen that happen several times with trapped elements when the boom was twisted so the elements were vertical, even temporarily (like during the course of installation). Depends how the beam is designed and assembled.

All the theorizing about antennas won't make any of them work any differently; get the tower installed first. Then you'll know what you can and can't rotate up there.

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 07:33 PM
Installing an HF beam vertically polarized is not without its complications. For one, the tower and supporting mast, both vertical and conductive, interfere with the operation of the beam (pattern, gain, tuning). The "modeled" numbers may not include the influence of a conductive support system, and I suspect they don't.

Also, the lower elements (below the boom) need to be really well attached or they can vibrate loose and literally fall off. I've seen that happen several times with trapped elements when the boom was twisted so the elements were vertical, even temporarily (like during the course of installation). Depends how the beam is designed and assembled.

All the theorizing about antennas won't make any of them work any differently; get the tower installed first. Then you'll know what you can and can't rotate up there.
LOL, the Tennadyne T6 I can buy has 38 ft long elements, kind of long for a 55 ft tower if turned vertically. The tower guys are coming after the first of the year, I already have the base pole in the ground that the Aluma Tower uses.
I can't fold it over, long story, but it is up against the house with a flat roof. The tower nests at approx 25 feet, and I have a 16 foot stepladder, hoping to install the beam that way. But if I have to, I will rent a bucket truck.

WB2WIK
12-26-2011, 08:40 PM
LOL, the Tennadyne T6 I can buy has 38 ft long elements, kind of long for a 55 ft tower if turned vertically. The tower guys are coming after the first of the year, I already have the base pole in the ground that the Aluma Tower uses.
I can't fold it over, long story, but it is up against the house with a flat roof. The tower nests at approx 25 feet, and I have a 16 foot stepladder, hoping to install the beam that way. But if I have to, I will rent a bucket truck.

The T6 elements probably won't fall out since they're assembled with screws and not clamps. But I wouldn't use one vertically polarized; the center elements will be almost right up against the mast and the tower and that's really bound to screw things up. Also, its mast clamp won't accommodate vertical installation so you'd have to homebrew something there.

NH7RO
12-26-2011, 09:15 PM
I am leaning very much towards the Mosley TA 53, and will probably put it up horizontally, and see if it "fits" w/o hitting trees as it rotates.

Can you trim the trees at all if it does? Maybe if/when you rent a bucket truck?

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 11:01 PM
Can you trim the trees at all if it does? Maybe if/when you rent a bucket truck?
Yes, any tree limb on MY side of the fence is fair game, BUT, the bitch next door has a heart attack every time I touch her trees, and dont want any wires hung from her trees. I can get a chain saw, and have at it, if need be.
But I have to live next door to my neighbors

KA7NIQ
12-26-2011, 11:02 PM
The T6 elements probably won't fall out since they're assembled with screws and not clamps. But I wouldn't use one vertically polarized; the center elements will be almost right up against the mast and the tower and that's really bound to screw things up. Also, its mast clamp won't accommodate vertical installation so you'd have to homebrew something there.
so, whats to stop me from turning the antenna at a 45 degree angle, if need be ?

NH7RO
12-27-2011, 01:16 AM
Only your next door neighbor (she sounds like an absolute pain)? LOL

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 01:24 AM
so, whats to stop me from turning the antenna at a 45 degree angle, if need be ?

With an antenna that has a round boom and a clamp that allows that, nothing! With the T6, I don't think the clamps will let you do that. It has two square booms and clamps in position exactly one way. You'd have to homebrew some sort of innovative clamping assembly to allow that.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 02:41 AM
Only your next door neighbor (she sounds like an absolute pain)? LOL
She is a piece of work, and since I run a roof cleaning business (http://www.saferoofcleaning.com) from my home, I don't need her calling Tampa area code enforcement types. She is 63 years old, retired, sits outside and smokes weed all day with her jobless redneck live in boyfriend.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 02:51 AM
With an antenna that has a round boom and a clamp that allows that, nothing! With the T6, I don't think the clamps will let you do that. It has two square booms and clamps in position exactly one way. You'd have to homebrew some sort of innovative clamping assembly to allow that.
I have pretty much decided to go with the Mosley TA 53. I just found out the add on kit to make it a TA 54 XL is 484.00 :mad:
I can't afford that, right now, maybe down the road ? Still, the Mosley TA 53 will give me 3 active elements on all 5 bands, so it is worth 100.00 more (300.00) to me vs the Tennadyne T6 I could have had for 200.00 (used).
I would have sure liked to have found a Used KIO Hex Beam, since I can't afford nearly 700.00 for a new one right now.
But finding a used KIO Hex Beam is darn near impossible, here in the Tampa Bay area.
In fact, the guy with the Tennadyne T6 has a Force 12 C4 currently up on his tower. It replaced the Tennadyne T6.
He plans to sell the Force 12 C4 soon, and go to the KIO Hex Beam.
Like so many of us, he is getting up there in age, and likes the idea of the lightweight, low windload KIO Hex Beam.

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 02:53 AM
Put up the tower first and see how much real world clearance you have.

Once the tower's up, it's easy to add a rotator and antenna.

What date is the tower going up?

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 03:34 AM
Put up the tower first and see how much real world clearance you have.

Once the tower's up, it's easy to add a rotator and antenna.

What date is the tower going up?
The towers base is in, tower has an electric winch on it, was told by the Ham who had to sell it that winch was not working, I need to check the switch, but have manual winch just in case.
Planning to erect tower after 1st of the year.
I have a rotor, an old Ham 2 I bought at a tailgate, need to be sure it works.

Oh, I just found out that Mosley makes not only a add on kit to extend the boom and add a 4th element on all bands, but they also make a 6 meter option.
My Kenwood TS 850 does not have 6 meters, but if I can sell some of the expensive high end stereo stuff I have, I could afford a new radio.
Mosley even has a 40 meter add on kit for the TA 53 too.
So, with enough money, I can eventually have one tower/beam to handle 40, 20,17,15,12,10 and 6 meters someday.

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 03:50 AM
The towers base is in, tower has an electric winch on it, was told by the Ham who had to sell it that winch was not working, I need to check the switch, but have manual winch just in case.
Planning to erect tower after 1st of the year.


Which day after the 1st of the year? To me, the actual date would be very important.:o

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 04:20 AM
Which day after the 1st of the year? To me, the actual date would be very important.:o
KB4RON is the guy doing the tower install, and tower guys are not that easy to find here in the Tampa Bay area, unless you want to pay a commercial guy BIG Bucks.
He has some other jobs, but promised me he will be in touch after the first of the year.
Of course, the actual DAY is very important. We want to be sure the Moon is in Mars on that day (Big Contester Secret)
I listened to the "hidden meaning" in this song, listen to the words.


http://youtu.be/kjxSCAalsBE

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 04:27 AM
KB4RON is the guy doing the tower install, and tower guys are not that easy to find here in the Tampa Bay area, unless you want to pay a commercial guy BIG Bucks.
He has some other jobs, but promised me he will be in touch after the first of the year.
Of course, the actual DAY is very important. We want to be sure the Moon is in Mars on that day (Big Contester Secret)
I listened to the "hidden meaning" in this song, listen to the words.


http://youtu.be/kjxSCAalsBE

To me, the actual date is the only important thing. When I was in business erecting towers and big antennas here in L.A. (1988 to 2000 or so), the ONLY thing that was important to every single customer was "when?" I gave a date, and made it happen, even in the rain...:p

It's a big deal because most want to be home for this, to help or observe, or whatever, and they must revolve their lives around that.

I never missed a date, not even by one day. It's the only way to gain credibility in business.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 04:47 AM
To me, the actual date is the only important thing. When I was in business erecting towers and big antennas here in L.A. (1988 to 2000 or so), the ONLY thing that was important to every single customer was "when?" I gave a date, and made it happen, even in the rain...:p

It's a big deal because most want to be home for this, to help or observe, or whatever, and they must revolve their lives around that.

I never missed a date, not even by one day. It's the only way to gain credibility in business.
Understood, and I totally agree. However, I am pretty much home all the time. I sit here and sell roof cleaning jobs my employees (My Son and his helpers) do.
I don't actually clean roofs myself anymore, at age 57, kind of old for that.
Besides, I am too valuable to our company to be out doing the actual roof cleaning work. It seems every time I DO go out working, I miss a call from a potential customer and lose a job. The roof cleaning business here in the Tampa area is very competitive, and the economy is not good. Often, I find by the time I get done cleaning a roof and return a potential customers call, it is too late. They have gone with someone else.

That is so cool what you used to do, install towers and antennas for a living. That makes you uniquely qualified to comment on antennas, since you have installed so many different ones. Have you ever installed or worked off a Telrex Antenna ?
When I was a kid growing up outside Detroit, a Ham lived on the next block who had a Telrex TB 6 EY Tribander. It was on a telephone pole.
The elements went right THROUGH the boom !!!!!!!!

HK2LS
12-27-2011, 04:16 PM
I have a T6. Great antenna but I want something with more gain. The antenna functions as advertised. I'm looking at the X7, TA54XLN6 and Bencher Skyhawk as my next antenna and will do something in January. The T8 offers only 1 db over the T6 and I like the beamwidth of the Skyhawk compared with that of the T6. As I remember it's somewhat narrow compared with the T6 and I can focus the gain on the direction I want and ignore the rest.. But then gain, no offical gain on the Skywark on WARC which I really as of yet haven't used. The Mosley offers gain on WARC and 6 meters which is kind-of interesting to me - for the future.

Like everything else in life - nothing is perfect (grin).

73s from Colombia
HK2LS

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 06:46 PM
I've owned and installed many Telrex beams. They were good -- and mostly heavy -- and the elements went through the booms on almost all models, even the VHF-UHF antennas.

The tribanders mostly had epoxy coated traps without any "covers" to hide insects, moisture, or problems. They worked pretty well.

I lived about 2 miles from the Telrex shop on Rt. 35 in Asbury Park, NJ and knew the Ercolino family pretty well, also. When Mike (founder) died, a lot changed. He made big bucks with conical television antennas in the 50s (maybe even the 40s, when TVs were really a new thing) and built and sold millions of them. Literally. The ham antenna business was an offshoot of that. Since he had a shop that could crank out several hundred antennas a day, the small volumes of ham antennas must not have been very exciting, but he was an avid ham DXer and liked it.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 06:48 PM
I have a T6. Great antenna but I want something with more gain. The antenna functions as advertised. I'm looking at the X7, TA54XLN6 and Bencher Skyhawk as my next antenna and will do something in January. The T8 offers only 1 db over the T6 and I like the beamwidth of the Skyhawk compared with that of the T6. As I remember it's somewhat narrow compared with the T6 and I can focus the gain on the direction I want and ignore the rest.. But then gain, no offical gain on the Skywark on WARC which I really as of yet haven't used. The Mosley offers gain on WARC and 6 meters which is kind-of interesting to me - for the future.

Like everything else in life - nothing is perfect (grin).

73s from Colombia
HK2LS
I am sure the Bencher Skyhawk will outperform the Mosley TA 54, and especially your Tennadyne T6, but only on 10,15, and 20 meters. However, the Mosley TA 54 is fast becoming "The Darling" of 12 and 17 meter antennas.
Unless you have a SteppIR, a mono or dual band WARC beam, Mosley TA 54's seem to "Rule" the 12 and 17 meter bands.
They not only give you a 4 element beam on these bands, but from what I have been told by hams who have upgraded their TA 53's to the TA 54's, front to back ratio is improved as well over the Mosley TA 53.
Everyone has their favorite band. Mine is 17 meters. Most Ham Radio Triband Yagi's are made for 10,15, and 20. Few people have beams on 17 meters, although I am hearing a lot of KIO Hex Beams there. Stil, the KIO Hex beams, as good as they are, are only 2 element beams. The Mosley TA 54 offers 4 active elements on 17 !!!!!!!!
This will make you a "big fish in a small pond" !!!!!!!
With 4 active elements on 20 meters, so what ? You will be up against long boom monobanders on 20, LOL
But 4 active elements on 17, and you become "The Big Signal".

I don't buy into using a non trapped beam like the Bencher Skyhawk or Cush Craft X 7 on 12 and 17 meters. Sure, it will load up, but you will have to fear every Hex Beam on 12 and 17 meters. I want a real beam, on all 5 HF Bands because I want a big signal.
I bought a used 3 element Mosley TA 53, plan to upgrade one day it to a 4 element TA 54 XL with 6 meters, then add the 40 meter add on kit, as money allows!
Think about it my friend ? One antenna that works all bands except 30, from 40 meters up, and gives you 4 elements on 12 and 17 meters, where few Hams even have Beams.
Plus, it's a Mosley, and you can leave it to your grandchildren someday, when your Key goes silent.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 07:03 PM
I've owned and installed many Telrex beams. They were good -- and mostly heavy -- and the elements went through the booms on almost all models, even the VHF-UHF antennas.

The tribanders mostly had epoxy coated traps without any "covers" to hide insects, moisture, or problems. They worked pretty well.

I lived about 2 miles from the Telrex shop on Rt. 35 in Asbury Park, NJ and knew the Ercolino family pretty well, also. When Mike (founder) died, a lot changed. He made big bucks with conical television antennas in the 50s (maybe even the 40s, when TVs were really a new thing) and built and sold millions of them. Literally. The ham antenna business was an offshoot of that. Since he had a shop that could crank out several hundred antennas a day, the small volumes of ham antennas must not have been very exciting, but he was an avid ham DXer and liked it.
Man, to me, when Telrex was around, that was the golden days on Ham Radio. I just loved their advertising copy.
Quotes like these "By the only test that means anything, on the air comparison, The Telrex TB 6 EY continues to support the fact it was designed to outperform all competitors" or " If you have been crushed in a pileup lately, the Telrex Christmas Tree Array will rebuild your Ego daily"

Or, this one "By maximizing the forward gain, without destroying the basic antenna pattern, Telrex has created a Yagi with "Punch"

I just loved reading Telrex Antenna advertisements!

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 07:10 PM
Man, to me, when Telrex was around, that was the golden days on Ham Radio. I just loved their advertising copy.
Quotes like these "By the only test that means anything, on the air comparison, The Telrex TB 6 EY continues to support the fact it was designed to outperform all competitors" or " If you have been crushed in a pileup lately, the Telrex Christmas Tree Array will rebuild your Ego daily"

Or, this one "By maximizing the forward gain, without destroying the basic antenna pattern, Telrex has created a Yagi with "Punch"

I just loved reading Telrex Antenna advertisements!

In reality, they were just beams, but mostly well-made ones. This was all done before computer simulation was available, but Mike had access to the antenna range at Ft. Monmouth (just up the street) and used that range to do a lot of testing.

Communications Products Corporation (CPC), which was later acquired by Phelps-Dodge, and then later acquired by Celwave, also had a big antenna range, just a few miles inland in Marlboro, NJ, and I think Mike had access to that one, also.

Hy-Gain "knocked off" several of the Telrex monoband designs and produced nearly identical antennas (same physical dimensions) but with elements not going "through" the booms, rather elements split in half and clamped to the booms. That made them easier to install -- for big beams, a whole lot easier.

KA7NIQ
12-27-2011, 07:49 PM
In reality, they were just beams, but mostly well-made ones. This was all done before computer simulation was available, but Mike had access to the antenna range at Ft. Monmouth (just up the street) and used that range to do a lot of testing.

Communications Products Corporation (CPC), which was later acquired by Phelps-Dodge, and then later acquired by Celwave, also had a big antenna range, just a few miles inland in Marlboro, NJ, and I think Mike had access to that one, also.

Hy-Gain "knocked off" several of the Telrex monoband designs and produced nearly identical antennas (same physical dimensions) but with elements not going "through" the booms, rather elements split in half and clamped to the booms. That made them easier to install -- for big beams, a whole lot easier.
I have always wondered HOW good those old Telrex designs really were, and would like to see the computer modeled results.
My other hobby is high end stereo speakers, and the computer has revolutionized their design.
However, there are some old speakers made before there was computer design that are amazingly good. These were designed the old school way, by a dedicated loudspeaker designer with measurements made in a sound proof room.

One can only wonder just how good those old Telrex designs really were. In fact many good Triband Yagi's were designed w/o computers, by dedicated antenna engineers on antenna ranges.
I have built a few monoband Yagi's the "old school way", by spacing the elements from .15 to .2 wavelengths on the boom, and simply making the reflectors 5% longer, and the directors from 3 to 5 percent shorter, with decent results.
Of course, I would use computer modeling if I were buildin a monoband yagi today.

WB2WIK
12-27-2011, 09:11 PM
I have always wondered HOW good those old Telrex designs really were, and would like to see the computer modeled results.


I don't know about the tribanders, but their VHF monoband yagis, developed empirically, are amazingly similar to well optimized computer modeled designs. Scary close.

In fact, it's funny: The M2 model 2M9 is a 9L yagi on a 14'6" boom, computer designed. It works very well, it's about as optimized as a beam can be for that boom length. The old Telrex model 2M814 is 8L on a 14' boom, empirically designed. I've compared those two many times, and there's no difference. Even the element lengths, spacings and odd taper (the directors aren't really tapered, some down the boom are longer than ones closer to the DE) are nearly identical. Old design from the 1950s compared with new one from 2000 or so. I doubt there's 0.25 dB difference between them.

But I'll bet the computer design was faster.:o

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