View Full Version : No-Coder or Pro-Coder?
I'd love to see re-testing at renewal.
A typical Morse code speed--
You should never send faster then the slowest operator can receive, typical speed.
K3STX
10-08-2003, 12:52 PM
WNE,
Interesting post. I can tell you WITHOUT A DOUBT that the speed of on air CW QSOs has plummeted. I operated all the time in the 1970's early '80s and QSOs in the general portion of the bands below 13 wpm were uncommon.
I dropped out of radio till earlier this year (college/family) and noticed at first that the speed of CW on air was annoyingly slow. When I first go on the air I did not know anything about the rules being changed, I did not know anything about Novice licenses being gone, I did not know that 5 wpm was enough for an Extra, and I did not know you could even get a license without a code test.
Now it is actually hard to find good old fashioned fast CW on the air. Sure it is there, but not like it used to be. I'm sorry if I offend some, but CW at 5 wpm is painful. Of course, practice makes perfect.
So YES, the dumbing down of the CW test has made a VERY noticeable change; I noticed it even before I was aware of the rules changed and wondered "What the hell is going on?!"
I too see 5 wpm tests as a joke in much the same way that you (and others) think the current theory test is a joke. I think they should be more rigorous on the CW test: I personally think it is more important than the theory ("If I have the books, I can look it up"). Others think the theory test are more important than the code ("I don't use it, so why test for it"). And around and around it goes.
But I think on one point you are wrong. If they stop code testing, it will be around for maybe 25 years or so, but then it will die off when those who grew up using it die themselves. regardless of how great it is at weak signal work, people will not learn it if they don't HAVE to ("It's too hard") and they won't use it.
paul
N8CPA
10-08-2003, 01:23 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3STX @ Oct. 08 2003,05:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I think on one point you are wrong. If they stop code testing, it will be around for maybe 25 years or so, but then it will die off when those who grew up using it die themselves. regardless of how great it is at weak signal work, people will not learn it if they don't HAVE to ("It's too hard") and they won't use it.
paul[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
AMEN! #Paul, you got it right! #That's why I say that elimination of the requirement is tantamount to genocide for the ARS. #Hey, if NCI uses hyperbole calling it a "burden", or "discrimination," #so can the tons of amateurs the world over who have met the requirement.
The hardest part about learning it is starting. #And with so much positive reinforcement for not starting, the code will pass into history within very few decades of the removal of the requirement. #No one will bother to learn it because starting is so hard.
Prior to 1991, its study even served as kind of orientation into Amateur Radio protocols and procedures, in a way unmatched by today's study manuals and memorization guides. #Folks coming in from other radio services, learned the differences between ARS and wherever they came from. #I've noticed the difference since then in the speech and protocols above 30MHZ since 1991. #Some changes are more annoying to the ear, than actually illegal, but distracting nonetheless on that level. #You can almost tell when someone was licensed regardless of license class by the way they talk even on HF. Many former Elmers have given up trying to teach people who lack the Morse linguistic basis. #If code did anything, it levelled the field for students. # #
I don't know how you feel about contesting. #I know that for years I hated it! #And then I started participating in CW contests to increase my code skill. #<OH boy! #3 weeks until CWSS!>
At the time you left the hobby, contest rules probably forbade the use of keyers and readers. #Now most of the top placers in CW contests use those to win. #Ditto with most high speed CW QSOS, nowadays. #They are mostly machine encoded and decoded, and not reflective of real #skill. #At least, the slower QSOs, sleep inducing as they are, are real op to op QSOs for the most part. #
I've made up my mind to stay with amateur radio, regardless of the Element 1 outcome. I'll try to keep an open mind in hopes that amateur radio will last at least as long as I do in its absence. But I have doubts about what kind of service it will be.
Steve (!! on CW, with the spaces rearranged)
W5HTW
10-08-2003, 01:43 PM
I agree with Paul. There is a noticeable difference in ham radio over two periods of time, one, from the restructuring of 1999 and the other from the creation of the no code tech ticket in 1992. That second one, though, stayed pretty much on two meters and wasn't really so obvious unless one left HF and listened around the two meter band. Having been on two meters off and on for years before that, the difference in sound on VHF had changed indescribably. I had worked repeaters from the very early days of ham repeaters, beginning myself in about 1971. The sounds of a repeater in 1977 or so were vastly different from the sounds of one in 1997.
On HF, the tone also changed. I attribute quite a bit of that, though, not to the dumbing down of ham radio, but to the dumbing down of society in general. You can witness that here on these forums where probably half, and maybe more than half, of the people posting can't write, spell or create anything resembling a sentence. That has nothing to do with ham radio but rather to do with what we Americans did with the education system in this nation. So certainly that affected ham radio as well.
Like Paul, I found the CW bands changing, too. While I notice the speed change, and, since testing only requires 5 wpm, I understand the reasons for the speed change, there is another problem that is far more prevalent than it used to be. That is the "close enough" concept. The idea that the letter "H" for example, doesn't have to be four dits, but can be any comfortable number of dits you happen to like at the moment. Usually five, six or seven, but I listened to one fellow a few days ago who was giving out RST reports as HH9. In fact, he shortened "H" to "S" on several occasions. Too lazy to send the extra dit? Or learned the code wrong? Or can't hear his sending?
It is not merely that the speed of code has dropped but the quality of it has as well. I've heard it said (actually read it here and on other forums) that some of the code is so bad it literally can not be understood. I heard a guy calling a DX station. He called repeatedly, and at about 7 WPM. But I listened and really tried, and I could not get his call sign. The number in his call could have been a five, a three, a four, or a zero. I couldn't guess, even after hearing him call at least five or six times.
There's still a lot of good code on the air, and good code does not have to be fast code. It is, though, awfully easy to forget about character and word spacing when you are down around 5 wpm, so the space between words is exactly the same as the space between letters. That makes it rough copy, all run together.
As to the future of CW? Well, it will go away, of course, perhaps not completely, but certainly as a 'normal' means of operation. Like the railroad or farm steam engine. There will be a few who like to preserve it, but it will cease to exist as we know it today. I doubt it will take 25 years, Paul. My guess would be more like ten to fifteen maximum, and we will see the effects of dropping the code requirement as early as 2005. (For I suspect the requirement will be dropped in early 2004.) The first step after dropping the requirement will be expansion of phone bands, which will automatically reduce CW bands. In fact, I see a couple of stages of that, one partial reduction, then a further reduction. I doubt the CW bands will be eliminated for at least ten years, but I do think they will be cut to at the very most 50 KHZ at the bottom of the bands, and that may have to include data as well. In other words, using forty meters as an example, I would think in the first stage the phone bands would be expanded downward to 7.100, and in the second stage, downward to either 7.075 or 7.050. Probably it would be done over a period of about two years. Now we'll just have to wait and see how accurate my guesses are!!
The other thing that should be of concern to me, were I a younger man, would be the future of the 'teachers' in ham radio. Now that it is possible to get an Extra Class ticket in the afternoon, having held no ticket before that morning, the 'teachers' are the ones with zero experience. They can't teach, as they have yet to learn. So the Elmering process is falling apart. We are making the students into the teachers and they are guessing at the right answers. Because of this, there is a danger, in my opinion, that at some point the FCC will attempt to make ham radio "foolproof." That could mean type accepted equipment, channelized operation, limited modes, limited power, and tamper-proof radios. That, though, I believe may be a little further down the line, and I wil no be a ham by then anyway.
We call it progress.
Ed
In the commercial field, the "dumbing down" of the 1st Class RadioTelephone License to a General RadioTelephone License and then to "Operators Permits" has made the posession of a broadcast license almost ludicrous.
In order to maintain some sort of dignity and recognition in the field, the Society of Broadcast Engineers ( SBE ) came up with their own certification program, which has achieved some very high praise and recognition.
See the following URL for more information:
http://www.sbe.org/
I haven't heard of anyone who is doing the same thing for Morse Code advocates. Why doesn't the ARRL or some other nationally recognized Amateur Radio Organization ( are there any others ? ) issue a proficiency award for 10, 15, 20, 25 and more WPM ? You could put some sort of identifying mark on your qsl cards, or attach an icon to your electronic correspondence, such as these threads on qrz.com.
I am sure that FISTS is doing its share to promote the use of Morse Code on the air, but I for one am sure not all that familiar with what efforts they are expending.
If there are any of these certificates etc. being promoted, they certainly aren't being promoted ENOUGH !
Someone do the rest of us a favor and tell us about anything like this that is being done. I would really like to know more!
Thanks in advance and 73 from Jim AG3Y
K3STX
10-08-2003, 02:55 PM
Interesting comments, gentlemen.
CPA: Back in the '70s I think keyers/boards were allowed, but I never heard of anyone using a reader. And for the high speed QSOs of today, I think over 50 wpm you need a keyboard, but paddles work fine up to 40 wpm for me. I have never heard of any serious CW op using a reader for QRQ. Where is the challenge of that. I assume contest operators today use their ear to copy and a keyboard for logging. How depressing if they use a computer for reading to.
HTW: I like your comments of "freeform" letters, like the "H". Yes, very common.
Jim AG3Y: ARRL does indeed issue Code Proficiency "awards" with endorsements up to 35 wpm. But I think the only person impressed is the recipient (as it should be).
Maybe 25 years till the end of everyday, common use of CW is a bit optimistic. But I'm only 40 years old now, so my making it to75 years old is still possible (but unlikely).
paul
Oh, Paul, I suspect that more contest operators use computers or at least the well-known "contest keyer" with built-in memories, and incrementing QSO Counters, etc. than don't ! However, since I am not a contester, I cannot vouch for that one way or another. I am only baseing my assumption on how many of the devices are available from MFJ etc. ! That would be a good question to ask others, wouldn't it ?
One more bubble, burst, huh ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
73 from Jim AG3Y
K3STX
10-08-2003, 03:16 PM
Jim,
Oh, I KNOW they use the computers to SEND the exchange in contests! I think you'd be hard pressed to find paddles at all. I meant for RECEIVING/deciphering the exchange I did not think computers were used. But maybe I am wrong about that.
paul
Guys, I'll tell you that as a new Amateur, there is so much conflicting info on proper CW it is really hard to figure out what is right. I have been following the style of whomever I am chatting with. How about a little guidence from you old hands?
Although my speed is up above 13wpm, I am not too quick to judge slower Ops. Had one last month that was not perfect code, but found out the Op had polio and was sending with his foot. You have to love that guy.
ai4ep
10-09-2003, 03:44 AM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif hey at least the man with POLIO had the " skill, coordination, guts and back bone " to at least try, and try again and try again if it weren't to his satisfaction...at least he did not " cry, moan and belly ache " that it was " too hard "...or the old " I dont wanna " ordeal....he should be PROUD of his accomplishment...I know I would be ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
KF4ZHL
10-09-2003, 04:13 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG3Y @ Oct. 08 2003,07:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the commercial field, the "dumbing down" of the 1st Class RadioTelephone License to a General RadioTelephone License and then to "Operators Permits" #has made the posession of a broadcast license almost ludicrous. #
In order to maintain some sort of dignity and recognition in the field, the Society of Broadcast Engineers ( SBE ) came up with their own certification program, which has achieved some very high praise and recognition.
See the following URL for more information:
http://www.sbe.org/
I haven't heard of anyone who is doing the same thing for Morse Code advocates. #Why doesn't the ARRL or some other nationally recognized Amateur Radio Organization ( are there any others ? ) #issue a proficiency award for 10, 15, 20, 25 and more WPM ? #You could put some sort of identifying mark on your qsl cards, or attach an icon to your electronic correspondence, such as these threads on qrz.com.
I am sure that FISTS is doing its share to promote the use of Morse Code on the air, but I for one am sure not all that familiar with what efforts they are expending.
If there are any of these certificates etc. being promoted, they certainly aren't being promoted ENOUGH !
Someone do the rest of us a favor and tell us about anything like this that is being done. #I would really like to know more!
Thanks in advance and 73 #from Jim AG3Y[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What a great idea! This could even be handled locally by clubs. Coming from a Military background, I can tell you that small awards and ceremony do a LOT to increase morale and striving for excellence. The awards don't have to be huge or glamorous. It's the positive reinforcement behind it.
Charlie AG4YO,
Welp, once upon a time, you could just listen to the veteran ops and pick up some good tips. These days, it's getting harder to find these veteran ops. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
One of my first observations was that experienced CW ops ABBREVIATED very efficiently. A few isolated examples:
gg = going
tt = that
cuz = because
es = and
tks (or tnx) = thanks
fer = for
gud = good
hv = have
b4 = before
agn = again
hr = here
hrd = heard, or hard
There are many many more. All the experienced ops knew the "standard" abbreviations, or were smart enough to figure them out on the fly. The conversation really flowed because more info was transmitted in less time, but at the same code speed.
Also, other than the question mark and the dahdidididah, punctuation is very rarely heard.
Another tip -- If the copy is solid, do not repeat any data unless asked to. When I was a Novice, some Novice ops would repeat EVERYTHING! "RST RST is 579 579. name name is bill bill. qth qth is podunk podunk didahdidahdidah...."
End result of the tips above above was you could pack more info into less time. CW became MUCH more conversational.
What you say about copying the style of the op on the other end has SOME validity. Don't operate using a style that will leave a less experienced op in the dust. Use SOME of the more obvious abbreviations, but spell more words out than you usually might. This will give the hint to the other op that abbreviating is a good practice to adopt, but at the same time, you'll still be understood.
Hope this helps!
73 de Steve W3SY
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG3Y @ Oct. 08 2003,07:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I haven't heard of anyone who is doing the same thing for Morse Code advocates. #Why doesn't the ARRL or some other nationally recognized Amateur Radio Organization ( are there any others ? ) #issue a proficiency award for 10, 15, 20, 25 and more WPM ? #You could put some sort of identifying mark on your qsl cards, or attach an icon to your electronic correspondence, such as these threads on qrz.com.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Am I missing something here? The ARRL *does* have a proficiency award for various increments of code. That's the whole idea behind a W1AW "qualifying run". I have a CP-20 award and I am authorized to put "CP-20" on my QSL cards along with my WAC, WAS, DXCC-CW and ROWH awards.
N8CPA
10-09-2003, 07:21 PM
I was licensed in '79. #I think that's when imabic generation was finally permitted in contests. #Mills and computer keyboards gained competitve acceptance later. #Readers followed shortly after keyboards.
I have some dexterity problems that resemble polio. #But my Morsemachine makes it possible for me to send clean CW, as long as I don't get a random twitch. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I preprogram the keyer with the exchange using my paddles and push a single button to send.
But I always decode by ear, though I doubt that's the common practice among top placers nowadays. #I think it may explain why so many exchanges must be resent. #It takes a little longer for the electronic reader to zerobeat even a clean, precise fist.
As far as Morse metrics, I was taught in Novice class: #
That a Dah is three times as long as a dit.
The space between elements in charcater should be half a dit. #
The space between letters as long as a dah. #
The space between words as long as the letter O.
If you can read music, think of a dit as an eighth note. Think of a dah as a dotted quarter note. You'll have to figure out how the spaces correspond to rests.
Of course experience breeds speed, and flexibily of the ear. #Eventually, a student and practitioner of the hamly art of Morse can eventually copy even choppy and erratic code, far beyond the skill of electronic readers. #Even from guys using bugs with significant swing in their fists. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oh I just can't wait until Sweepstakes!
!!
W0DZ, I am playing Devil's advocate here, of course I knew of the ARRL proficiency award, but did you know that the League doesn't represent the interests of ALL the hams in the U.S. and a darn site less of hams around the world! I am just betting that you have to be a member of the league to apply for those certificates! ( I hope I'm wrong ! )
What I am advocating is an internationally recognized CW proficiency award that would indicate the same level of achievement, regardless of the country. None of this "one minute of perfect copy" for one country, and "fill in the blanks" for another! Certainly some sort of co-operation among the English speaking countries of the world would be a great start !
73 from Jim AG3Y
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AG3Y @ Oct. 09 2003,12:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">W0DZ, I am playing Devil's advocate here, #of course I knew of the ARRL proficiency award, but did you know that the League doesn't represent the interests of ALL the hams in the U.S. and a darn site less of hams around the world! # I am just betting that you have to be a member of the league to apply for those certificates! #( I hope I'm wrong ! )
What I am advocating is an internationally recognized CW proficiency award that would #indicate the same level of achievement, regardless of the country. # None of this "one minute of perfect copy" for one country, and "fill in the blanks" for another! #Certainly some sort of co-operation among the English speaking countries of the world would be a great start !
73 from Jim AG3Y[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, fine, but you did ask why the ARRL didn't do something like that. Are you asking them to do it for everyone, not just members? Why should they?
K0RGR
10-10-2003, 03:44 PM
There aren't as many 50 WPM types in contests these days, and I hear few ragchews much over 30, but 30 WPM is still fairly common. I am starting to hear more slow-speed stuff in the General portion of the band, which is fine most of the time.
The quality of the code does seem poorer and I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm just pickier than I used to be, but it's more challenge than I desire sometimes to try to decipher these guys. I'm also less in love with ancient CW abbreviations than I used to be - at a reasonable speed, it doesn't take much longer to spell most things out.
If the prediction that CW will go away entirely in 10-15 years proves to be correct, and I don't believe it is, what difference will it make? With the average age of Amateurs in the USA rapidly approaching 60, how many of those that currently use CW extensively expect to be here in 10 to 15 years?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">w0dz Posted on Oct. 10 2003,11:10
Well, fine, but you did ask why the ARRL didn't do something like that. Are you asking them to do it for everyone, not just members? Why should they? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Let me ask in return, Why SHOULDN'T they ? ? ?
This could easily get into an ARRL bashing string, now. The league claims to represent ALL of the amateur radio fraternity, but in reality it SEEMS to be representing only DUES PAYING MEMBERS !
There are some hams around that think that the league is doing enough things WRONG that they want no part of their affairs.
It is a shame that the situation is that way, but until some of the issues are cleared up, the league is going to suffer from the attrition that they have been seeing throughout the amateur ranks into the forseeable future.
Now as far as being a "Devil's Advocate", I can be on one side of the fence or the other, depending on where I see the most wrong, so keep that in mind as you read my comments. Try to understand this if it appears that I am contridicting myself occasionally. What I am trying to do is put into words some of the comments I have heard and seen in other places. They may or may not represent my personal feelings!
73 from Jim AG3Y
w5alt
10-10-2003, 10:35 PM
We really haven't seen much ARRL bashing on here recently. #(I'm Life Member and don't expect to drop out anytime soon, hopefully.)
The Code Proficiency Award is explained here: http://www.arrl.org/awards/#cp Notice it doesn't say anything about being a member, neither does one have to be a ham, since it is open to non-hams.
But, hey, if that doesn't work, send ME your $10 and I'll get a certificate right out. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
73,
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K0RGR @ Oct. 10 2003,08:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the prediction that CW will go away entirely in 10-15 years proves to be correct, and I don't believe it is, what difference will it make? With the average age of Amateurs in the USA rapidly approaching 60, how many of those that currently use CW extensively expect to be here in 10 to 15 years?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Do you see any cause and effect there?
KG6JTB
10-11-2003, 01:41 AM
The only evidence supporting or opposing “code testing” is largely anecdotal in nature.
The only empirical data that can be measured is the decline in the amateur ranks, and there is no link proving a “5 wpm test” is the direct cause of such decline.
Ham testing has become easier over the years, yet the numbers of amateur operators is still declining.
I still support dropping the code requirement, but I don’t think it’s the “shot in the arm” the ARRL thinks it will be to drive membership. I also don’t believe a rush of CB operators will take a written test to get on the HF bands.
How do you "jump start" this hobby?
Dave
KG6JTB