QRZ Network Issues

[AA7BQ]

QRZ has been experiencing some intermittent network problems with our internet service provider. No data has been lost nor has there been any impact to system security. It appears that our local telephone company's lines are noisy and causing our high speed data modem (DSU/CSU) to occasionally drop synchronization.

The providers are working on the problem now and we expect to have it corrected within the next 24 hours. If, in the meantime, you're having trouble getting into QRZ, just keep trying back after a few minutes.

We're very sorry for the service interruption, even though it only lasts for a few minutes at a time.

QRZ runs on a dedicated T1 connection at 1.54Mb/s that runs directly into a Cable & Wireless backbone router only a few miles away. This router is connected to the internet through multiple 155Mb/s interfaces which generally provides excellent connectivity and response times. The line between the backbone router and out site is provided by Qwest, the local telephone company in the Phoenix, Arizona area.

Thanks and 73,

The QRZ Staff



</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
October 2, 2003
Qwest worked the problem all day yesterday and late last night decided to move us to another pair after a "grounding" problem (no specific details). It looks like we're back to normal.
-fred
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

[n8ary]

It's probably BPL interference http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[k7unz]

No, it's QWest for sure..... #Been having the same problem here in Tucson (also QWest) with my dial-up connections, and for a while even my telephone was in and out with a lot of noise. #Connection speed varies all over the place, and it's been like this ever since hurricane Marty dropped his water on us. #My ISP link path is thru the Phoenix area, so think we're both seeing the same thing. #Maybe a donation of some blow dryers to QWest would help??

73,Jim
K7UNZ

I'm sorry to hear that you guys are having trouble. I had a terrorist hacker attack on my domain earlier this year, and boy was that a royal pain! I had to go in there and zap all of their propaganda messages, and the web-hosting folks said over 900 domains were affected!

I'm sure the problem you are having will be straightened out soon. I found that when QRZ is slow today, if I just shut down the browser and try again, it always jumps right up.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog. However, water does have an effect. Funny how water and electricity don't mix. One of our biggest problems is wet cables. Especially in manholes. One manhole cannot be pumped out. It is connected to 10 others. When one is pumped you are pumping 10 others, too. Qwest has a problem, but they will find it. I've worked with them on several occasions. Be glad it's not Verizon.

[ke4pjw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 29 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
???? T1's are sent over two copper pairs, just like a POTS line, they can have noise. If it ain't signal, it's noise. That's what all those line quality figures express in the menus of the smartjack.

[whsmith]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif? T1's are sent over two copper pairs, just like a POTS line, they can have noise. If it ain't signal, it's noise. That's what all those line quality figures express in the menus of the smartjack

...and I would add, digital signals are all or nothing in respect to the noise. While the noise masks the signals nothing gets through. Digital compensates well for intermittent noise but constant noise can cause extended loss of synchronization e.g. loss of data. If the data rate is pushing the limits of the line, the line is even more susceptible to noise and dropping synch/data loss, as data correction mechanisms can't keep up. Also, if ATM is in the carrier's path, there won't be any effective error correction, as all packets become broadcast packets on the ATM link. Flak jacket on. Fire away!!!
Bill N3XL

[n9kpn]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.

[KH2D]

You gotta love QRZ.Com. It's probably one of the few places on the internet that the owner of the web site can post a status message and start a debate about what's digital and what's not. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

You guys will argue about ANYTHING http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[n4zfu]

Wow, didn't realize we had a bunch of telephone guys here! Let's see, T1 is digital on 2 pairs (4 wires), 1 TX, 1 RX. Manholes...If manholes are plugged properly, water will not run through the duct runs (been there, seen it) and flood 10 manholes...Intermittent T1 loss of synchronization (i.e timing slips, etc.) = 1.defective DACS cross connect cable in local Central Office, 2. incorrect or defective high or low speed mux card in the Central Office or remote Digital Loop Carrier system, 3. Defective smartjack and/or patch cable at customer's location, 4. cable pairs wet or corroded, producing high resistant connections to ground or shorted condition, 5. any of the above damaged from previous lightning strikes or power surges (backhoe through power and phone cables), 6. Technician provisions new circuit for different customer with laptop, but makes erroneous changes in framing sequence...B8ZS to AMI (always causes errors) due to equipment programmed at both ends set for B8ZS and mux changes to AMI. 7. Customer's equipment, yes that does happen. 8. Murphy's Law. 9. Bottom line, when in doubt...change it out (cards, patch cables, etc.). Monitor T1 with test equipment to islolate and identify. Class is over, dismissed. Signed, Still learning telephone man w/ 30+ years experience. 73's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[ab0wr]

I would like to add a number 10 to your list. 10. Incorrect cable pair assignments. If the cable is an old pots cable and correct pair separation is not done, you can pick up noise from other digital carriers.

[WM5L]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,17:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog. However, water does have an effect. Funny how water and electricity don't mix. One of our biggest problems is wet cables. Especially in manholes. One manhole cannot be pumped out. It is connected to 10 others. When one is pumped you are pumping 10 others, too. Qwest has a problem, but they will find it. I've worked with them on several occasions. Be glad it's not Verizon.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Why do say "be glad it's not Verizon"? Do you circuit boys at SBC think You are better than Verizon down there in south Texas?

[kc2ftn]

WHEW....I thought it might be part of Hillary's imaginary 'Right-Wing Conspiracy'.

KC2FTN
www.hamwave.com

[wb0nre]

Add #11: #Physical pair gets re-routed out the other side of the C.O. and around the block the other way adding 3000 feet of wire to a 13800 ft DSL pair thus creating an unacceptable signal-to-noise ratio. #Verizon strikes again!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ Oct. 01 2003,09:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nope.....The real world doesnt enter into it.....If its on a closed wire, with all equipment from point a to point b digital, its digital, period. It is sent on the wire as DIGITAL, and hits a DIGITAL data switch. Analog is common place only on voice lines. I see what your TRYING to say about everything being analog. Don't confuse people, it's digital.

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ...some of these folks will walk up to a STOP sign and argue with it ! (lol)

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kd4amg @ Oct. 01 2003,23:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ...some of these folks will walk up to a STOP sign and argue with it ! #(lol)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Heh, im sorry, I dont know why I get into these situations....My dad used to always tell me, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WM5L @ Oct. 01 2003,19:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,17:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog. However, water does have an effect. #Funny how water and electricity don't mix. One of our biggest problems is wet cables. Especially in manholes. One manhole cannot be pumped out. It is connected to 10 others. When one is pumped you are pumping 10 others, too. Qwest has a problem, but they will find it. I've worked with them on several occasions. Be glad it's not Verizon.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Why do say "be glad it's not Verizon"? Do you circuit boys at SBC think You are better than Verizon down there in south Texas?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
They will be, until Verizon buys them up too, hehehe.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg4vpv @ Oct. 01 2003,21:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ Oct. 01 2003,09http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nope.....The real world doesnt enter into it.....If its on a closed wire, with all equipment from point a to point b digital, its digital, period. #It is sent on the wire as DIGITAL, and hits a DIGITAL data switch. #Analog is common place only on voice lines. #I see what your TRYING to say about everything being analog. #Don't confuse people, it's digital.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm sure you're very good at what you do, but you don't seem to be doing a very good job of explaining it just now.

Digital signals are subject to noise, the nature of which depends on how the signal is encoded on the transmission media. This is why we add various error correction bits to the signal.

The most common kind of noise on digital transmission are a combination of transmission distance and induced voltage that tend to make systems read 0s as 1s and 1s as 0s.

Typically, this is characterized as the bit error rate a ratio of bad bits to total bits.

73

marty

[n7iqv]

ah yes....QWorst strikes again. Hopefully, you can still get voice service without problems...but if you notice, their trucks list "Phone Service" at the BOTTOM of their offerings.

Look for you on HF...it may be more reliable!

John N7IQV

[n5ebw]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 02 2003,01http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg4vpv @ Oct. 01 2003,21:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ Oct. 01 2003,09<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nope.....The real world doesnt enter into it.....If its on a closed wire, with all equipment from point a to point b digital, its digital, period. #It is sent on the wire as DIGITAL, and hits a DIGITAL data switch. #Analog is common place only on voice lines. #I see what your TRYING to say about everything being analog. #Don't confuse people, it's digital.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm sure you're very good at what you do, but you don't seem to be doing a very good job of explaining it just now.

Digital signals are subject to noise, the nature of which depends on how the signal is encoded on the transmission media. This is why we add various error correction bits to the signal.

The most common kind of noise on digital transmission are a combination of transmission distance and induced voltage that tend to make systems read 0s as 1s and 1s as 0s.

Typically, this is characterized as the bit error rate a ratio of bad bits to total bits.

73

marty[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
:-) #Im not sure if that response was aimed at me, or the original poster, but just wanted to clarify, I wasnt arguing the fact about them being noisy, I was stating that they aren't analog. #And yes, BERT testing is very useful when determining whether or not you have a noisy line, ESPECIALLY when it comes to digital lines. Thanks for clarifying my point OM. As always, it's appreciated.

73

[K6UEY]

I always thought that those who do nothing but blow steam through their hats were limited to the RF Analog world,but it looks like the other side of the coin the Digital World has their share also.......73, # ORV
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

BTW,thanks Fred for the explanation,it has been rough for the last couple of days,I hope they rebate for all the hours lost ........ORV
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KB5B]

WOW...With all the post on this and echolink...My eyes are getting tired.....n5pvl, maybe we can all get on echolink and talk about this so my eyes can rest!!!!!!!
What ya think?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Terry KC5EGC
Echolink node 68156


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[wd4brp]

I just wish some of the paid services to which I suscribe worked as well as QRZ. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[w6dce]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,17:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog. However, water does have an effect. #Funny how water and electricity don't mix. One of our biggest problems is wet cables. Especially in manholes. One manhole cannot be pumped out. It is connected to 10 others. When one is pumped you are pumping 10 others, too. Qwest has a problem, but they will find it. I've worked with them on several occasions. Be glad it's not Verizon.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually, that isn't true at all... While the data signal is digital, line noise can happen on any copper lines.. Enough noise=signal degredation and loss of sync, slips, etc. Look me up in phone... Pretty sure I know what I speak of here..

[w6dce]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n4zfu @ Oct. 01 2003,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow, didn't realize we had a bunch of telephone guys here! Let's see, T1 is digital on 2 pairs (4 wires), 1 TX, 1 RX. Manholes...If manholes are plugged properly, water will not run through the duct runs (been there, seen it) and flood 10 manholes...Intermittent T1 loss of synchronization (i.e timing slips, etc.) = 1.defective DACS cross connect cable in local Central Office, 2. incorrect or defective high or low speed mux card in the Central Office or remote Digital Loop Carrier system, 3. Defective smartjack and/or patch cable at customer's location, 4. cable pairs wet or corroded, producing high resistant connections to ground or shorted condition, 5. any of the above damaged from previous lightning strikes or power surges (backhoe through power and phone cables), 6. Technician provisions new circuit for different customer with laptop, but makes erroneous changes in framing sequence...B8ZS to AMI (always causes errors) due to equipment programmed at both ends set for B8ZS and mux changes to AMI. 7. Customer's equipment, yes that does happen. 8. Murphy's Law. 9. Bottom line, when in doubt...change it out (cards, patch cables, etc.). Monitor T1 with test equipment to islolate and identify. Class is over, dismissed. Signed, Still learning telephone man w/ 30+ years experience. 73's http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You totally forgot the basics... Check the PM's on the repeaters... They will tell you everything you need to know.. And for god sakes.. change those darn coils..

[w6dce]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ Oct. 01 2003,07:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Incorrect. But this is an old argument.

[w6dce]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg4vpv @ Oct. 02 2003,00:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Oct. 02 2003,01<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg4vpv @ Oct. 01 2003,21:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n9kpn @ Oct. 01 2003,09<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (k5hdg @ Sep. 30 2003,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Troubleshooting data lines is what I do for SBC. #Data lines cannot be "noisy". They are digital, not analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry but any signal sent over wires is ANALOG. #Noise WILL effect electronic signals; period. #While the information may be digital, the "real world" is analog.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nope.....The real world doesnt enter into it.....If its on a closed wire, with all equipment from point a to point b digital, its digital, period. #It is sent on the wire as DIGITAL, and hits a DIGITAL data switch. #Analog is common place only on voice lines. #I see what your TRYING to say about everything being analog. #Don't confuse people, it's digital.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm sure you're very good at what you do, but you don't seem to be doing a very good job of explaining it just now.

Digital signals are subject to noise, the nature of which depends on how the signal is encoded on the transmission media. This is why we add various error correction bits to the signal.

The most common kind of noise on digital transmission are a combination of transmission distance and induced voltage that tend to make systems read 0s as 1s and 1s as 0s.

Typically, this is characterized as the bit error rate a ratio of bad bits to total bits.

73

marty[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
:-) #Im not sure if that response was aimed at me, or the original poster, but just wanted to clarify, I wasnt arguing the fact about them being noisy, I was stating that they aren't analog. #And yes, BERT testing is very useful when determining whether or not you have a noisy line, ESPECIALLY when it comes to digital lines. #Thanks for clarifying my point OM. #As always, it's appreciated.

73[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Let's all break out our T-Berd's and sing along... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[WD8OQX]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Glad to see they found the problem......

BTW:I really like this site!!! - TNX for all the work that goes into it.

73

[AA7BQ]

Thanks for all your comments.

Qwest finally located the faulty circuit and we're up and running normally now.

73,

-fred