ECHOLINK

[N7MK]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

ECHOLINK TO ACCEPT DIGITAL CERTIFICATES ISSUED BY THE ARRL'S "LOGBOOK OF THE WORLD" PROGRAM

Contact: Jonathan Taylor, K1RFD (k1rfd@k1rfd.com)

Ridgefield, CT, September 28 -- EchoLink, the world's leading Amateur Radio Internet linking system, has announced that it will begin accepting digital certificates issued by the American Radio Relay League's Logbook of the World program as an alternate means of authenticating new users.

System security is critical, and all new EchoLink users must be validated before being allowed access. In many cases, new users are asked to provide proof of license for verification. EchoLink system administrators currently process dozens of Amateur license photocopies each day, received by fax and e-mail. To streamline the process, participants in Logbook of the World (LoTW) will now be able to prove their identity to EchoLink using a LoTW digital certificate, as an alternative to submitting a license copy.

Under the Trusted QSL technology employed by LoTW, the ARRL is acting as the certificate authority, or CA. In accepting digital certificates issued by the ARRL, EchoLink is asserting that it trusts the ARRL CA's methods of verifying identity. This simplifies the validation process for new users who are already using LoTW, since they need not prove their identity (including their callsign) a second time in order to use EchoLink.

Once a Trusted QSL digital certificate is installed, a special utility developed by EchoLink allows new users to authenticate themselves to the EchoLink system in a matter of seconds. The utility "signs" a validation request with the user's private key, and then transmits the request, the signature, and the certificate to the EchoLink servers. The servers automatically verify the digital certificate and electronic signature upon receipt. The certificate contains the requestor's callsign, as verified by the ARRL.

Once validated, new EchoLink users are able to set up simplex or repeater links that can communicate by voice over the Internet with any of thousands of other Amateur stations. Validated users can also use EchoLink to connect to distant stations directly from their PCs.

"This is a major step forward in interconnecting Amateur Radio with the Internet," said Jonathan Taylor, K1RFD, developer of the EchoLink system. "The merger of these two technologies has always been hindered by the need for strong, reliable authentication. By issuing trustworthy digital certificates, the ARRL is making it easier for systems like EchoLink to leverage communications technologies that enhance the value of the Amateur Radio Service."

EchoLink is a system for interconnecting Amateur Radio stations over the Internet. Now in its second year of operation, EchoLink has been adopted by more than 100,000 licensed Amateurs in 139 countries worldwide. The software and access to the system is offered free of charge,
and the system is managed by an all-volunteer staff of hams on three continents.

Logbook of the World is the ARRL's secure electronic contact-confirmation system. Launched on September 15 of this year, it will allow its participants to qualify for operating awards electronically, as an alternative to exchanging and submitting hardcopy QSLs.

Information on EchoLink is available at www.echolink.org.
Information on Logbook of the World is available at www.arrl.org/lotw.

[w8vom]

You gotta be kidding! W8VOM

[kc2jga]

the things that make you go "hmmm"

[n9lya]

What a joke...

If its not RF its not Ham Radio..

[K0ZZE]

i agree, thats not much of a challenge.that would be like talking to someone in japan on your cell phone.gravy train!!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[AB9HR]

what the

Re: EchoLink

I was disgusted to hear about the ARRL president getting on that hokey setup and pretending to be operating as a ham. - Honoring the 9-11 victims *as a ham* by getting on a non-ham setup that would be guaranteed to go dead during any emergency precisely because it is based on non-ham stuff.

Why couldn't the guy get on W1AW and actually use radio? Is utilizing a non-ham setup that is no good for emergency communications really an appropriate way to honor the memory of those people *as a ham*?

I don't think so.

Instead, I wonder what kind of message he was sending when he turned to the non-ham stuff to communicate with other hams *as a ham*. I think the man should be ashamed of himself.

Besides, there is the simple, no-brainer fact that you cannot provide emergency backup for a network that you are dependant upon. - Like a special number to dial when the phones go dead, systems such as EchoLink and packet/Internet gateways are inherently useless for emergency communications and do nothing to advance our understanding and use of radio, and so are ultimately irrelevant to our purpose as hams.

It is a sad commentary on the times we live in, that the ARRL would get all excited about non-ham communications when our ability to use radio is being threatened. Now QRZ is jumping on the bandwagon too. It is my hope that none of us will have cause to regret this lack of focus and loss of a sense of mission on the ARRL's part. (And QRZ's)

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL
Director: USPN
http://www.uspacket.net

[KG4UDX]

Good grief people. It isn't echolink saying they'll work with LotW for QSLs, just that they'll take LotW certificates as proof that you're a ham and can use the program. READ FIRST, not jerk knee first.

[KG4HYL]

Just think, someday I can log my e-mails.

[N7MK]

Like Echolink or not, I think you guys are completely missing it.

They are not saying that ARRL Logbook of the World is accepting Echolink contacts for awards, etc.

They are saying that the digital verification certificate you get when registering for LoTW will be accepted for verification to access Echolink.


M

"Ready.... FIRE!!!... aim."

So far, we have two responses to a point that was never raised... "that ARRL Logbook of the World is accepting Echolink contacts for awards, etc."

Understandable why you guys would be nervous on that point - but shouldn't you save your excuses and rebuttles until the point has actually been brought up by somebody?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I hadn't really thought of it, but now that you mention it, I wonder how long it will take the ARRL to start awarding hams for their non-ham EchoLink contacts?

Bet it won't take long! We'll probably hear a bunch of hams clamoring for it right here on this thread, before it's over.

The fact that you guys are responding to points that have not yet been made makes it pretty clear that you both know that what you are pushing is bogus.

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

The folks who are "badmouthing" echolink are well aware of the particulars concerning which event preceeds which event. They also know that its just a matter of time before "echolinkers" are asking for award credit from the ARRL. When that is granted amateur radio will have been further diminished.

In Arizona, over 70% of the electorate have indicated that they want general social services denied to illegal immigrants. - While Arizona politicians and elected officials fight the notion tooth and nail.

In California, the people there finally had to go for a recall of the governor, because state elites had proved themselves to be almost totally disconnected from the wants and desires of the electorate.

In ham radio, we have the same problem with "elites" who do not know or care about what the great majority of hams want. - These "elites" have an agenda, and working for what is best for the hobby, or for what is most desired by the great majority of hams is obviously not a part of that agenda.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[K0RGR]

The point of the article is that now, a more secure means of authenticating Echolink users is available. This is progress! Hopefully, someday this will lead to all Echolinkers being authenticated with digital certificates in the future. It virtually eliminates the ability to forge credentials for access to the system - slamming the doors on potential hackers. As an Echolink sysop, I'm very pleased.

I should also point out that Jonathon has made changes to encourage more RF-to-RF connections through Echolink and that a majority of Echolink nodes are now RF gateways. He reports that the vast majority of QSO's today involve RF on at least one end, so radio is involved here. I'm seeing connects from more repeaters and simplex gateways on my local node.

For those who prefer, there is a Linux version of the Echolink client available now, too.

I think the vast majority of hams favor Echolink and its kin. Web sites like this one and eham are a much bigger danger to ham radio than Echolink.

[ke4pjw]

This to me is a Good Thing.

One of the many concerns expressed about Echolink was, there is no way to authenticate users as hams. By using PKI and ARRL verification, this should be enough to put those concerns to rest for anyone who has a clue.

IRLP has been using PGP to authenticate the linking of repeaters and so far it seems to work really well.

If you don't know what PKI or Digital Certificates are, Google for it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point of the article is that now, #a more secure means of authenticating Echolink users is available. This is progress![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I agree. There will be a lot less new EchoLink users, now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I should also point out that Jonathon has made changes to encourage more RF-to-RF connections through Echolink and that a majority of Echolink nodes are now RF gateways. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Gee, that's mighty big of him!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the vast majority of hams favor Echolink and its kin. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

We have over three hundred hams living in my area. Of this group, less than twenty use the non-ham stuff... Hardly what a rational or honest person would call a "majority", eh?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Web sites like this one and eham are a much bigger danger to ham radio than Echolink.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Somehow, you managed to get even further out in left-field.

Congratulations! I didn't think it could be done.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[N7MK]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K0RGR @ Sep. 30 2003,10:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Web sites like this one and eham are a much bigger danger to ham radio than Echolink.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Would you care to justify or defend this claim?

[K2WH]

Echolink has never verified anyone I know in hamdom including myself. #Months ago, I just loaded the software, ran it, entered my calls and had access.

So much for verification?

K2WH

[AE6IP]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,06http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Re: EchoLink

Besides, there is the simple, no-brainer fact that you cannot provide emergency backup for a network that you are dependant upon. - Like a special number to dial when the phones go dead, systems such as EchoLink and packet/Internet gateways are inherently useless for emergency communications and do nothing to advance our understanding and use of radio, and so are ultimately irrelevant to our purpose as hams.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It may be a no-brainer fact but it isn't true. Networks don't have on/off switches, per se, they have multiple components and can have massive redundency.

At my QTH, for example, I have access to four different ways to connect to the internet, although I only use two of them.

Well designed communication systems don't fail all at once, they degrade in performance. The landline phone system demonstrated this very effectively during the east coast blackout, it stayed up completely in all but a few remote areas that were among the last to have power restored.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well designed communication systems don't fail all at once, they degrade in performance. The landline phone system demonstrated this very effectively during the east coast blackout, it stayed up completely in all but a few remote areas that were among the last to have power restored.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Great that the phone lines were up. Unfortunately, without power there were very few computers operating, including the ones at most ISP's.

During the blackout, the EchoLink junk first loaded up from too many inputs at once, then totally shut down ( in the area affected by the emergency ) due to a ( duh! ) lack of power.

Kind of like having a special number to dial when the phones go dead, eh? #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[N7MK]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K2WH @ Sep. 30 2003,12:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Echolink has never verified anyone I know in hamdom including myself. Months ago, I just loaded the software, ran it, entered my calls and had access.

So much for verification?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hence the whole idea here. They are going to use ARRL's verification as your verification for Echolink.

[KU2US]

I want to work All States Echo-link..Oh, maybe DX-100 too..Just think, I wont have to push down that awfull heavy mic key? And now that CW is MAYBE out of it, I can type the dits and dahs on echo-link..Well, I gotta go on the roof and take down my antennas, I wont be needing them anymore.."Echo-Link" is here..WHAT A JOKE..

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Echolink has never verified anyone I know in hamdom including myself. Months ago, I just loaded the software, ran it, entered my calls and had access.

So much for verification?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hence the whole idea here. They are going to use ARRL's verification as your verification for Echolink.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

... And I'm sure the 100,000 anonymous, already existing EchoLink users will all have to stop using Echolink until they have been verified too, right?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

[K0RGR]

Why do I say that sites like this one are a bigger danger to ham radio than Echolink?

First, instead of using radio, we're hollering at each other on the Internet - reducing the level of activity on the air, which is not desirable. At least Echolink promotes some radio activity on one or both ends of a conversation, which is the whole idea.

Two, the negative attitudes displayed by many of those posting on these sites probably scares off a fair number of prospective new hams. I no longer promote QRZ.com or eham.net to prospects I encounter,because these forums are becoming nothing but a sounding board for a group of backwards-looking hams who seem to feel that they have a mission to protect us from ourselves. You may be one of those that feels we don't need new hams. I have a much different opinion.

It's been a while since there was a poll on the subject, but if you are telling me that only 20 out of 300 hams in your area approve of Echolink, I'd have to say that is untypical. I doubt that a majority of the hams here have ever used it, and only a few use it a lot, but most of them say they support it, at least to my face, and I know that many just enjoy listening to the traffic. I believe Echolink has helped to revive two meter activity in this area. The repeater we're using is one of 5 in the area, and it was nearly dead before Echolink. Now, there is at least some activity most evenings.

Echolink logs all contacts automatically. I have often emailed people in that log, and so far, not one has been a bootlegger. When you first tried to use Echolink, you should have seen the message that your callsign would be verified - usually a delay of a few hours. I've heard rumors of people using a call that they borrowed from a callbook, but I have not yet actually caught one, and I have tried.

Yes, I'm a leftist - I only voted for Reagan twice. Those of you in certain southern states that vote for his party 4 or 5 times each election are far more conservative than me.

[n8ary]

This is as good as code Vs No Code.

Why all the crying? #It's not hurting anyone. #What's it to you if I use a computer to talk to my friends? #A bunch of jerks telling me how to live? #Maybe getting a Ham license wasn't such a good idea after all.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Echolink has never verified anyone I know in hamdom including myself. #Months ago, I just loaded the software, ran it, entered my calls and had access.

So much for verification?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

They verified me when I tried to register our club call. #At least the calls are verified with a central database before transmitting is allowed. #That's a lot more than I can say for HF or VHF. #Where's the authentication there? #I can turn off my Echolink station or ban people from connecting if a problem arises. #What do you do when a bootlegger gets on 10m? #Pretty much nothing.

Anyone can buy a radio legally and start transmitting on it illegally. No one checks your callsign at Radio Shack or AES when you buy a radio. It is illegal for them to deny sale to you even if you don't have a call sign. Do you think that shiny new radio asks for a call sign before the PTT button will work? The Echolink security is an order of magnitude better than any repeater.

The only reason this is a big deal is because some people don't think it's real Ham Radio and want to get rid of it. You party-poopers found a weakness and want to exploit it in order to interfere with the enjoyment others are having with it. Shame on you!

Just for drill, I decided to hack EchoLink.

The server said it would take an hour to "validate" my bogus callsign ( taken from QRZ, of course! ) but actually it only took twenty minutes for me to get connected to the test server. Getting my firewall set up was the biggest delay involved.

If the call had been one of those being verified, it would have been a simple matter to pick out another call and try again.

I used the callsign and QRZ info for a ham I know who doesn't use EchoLink. ( #lots of those to choose from! #)

Now that we have this issue settled; #Is there anything else you folks would like to talk about?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[ke4pjw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 29 2003,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for drill, I decided to hack EchoLink.

The server said it would take an hour to "validate" my bogus callsign ( taken from QRZ, of course! ) but actually it only took twenty minutes for me to get connected to the test server.

If the call had been one of those being verified, it would have been a simple matter to pick out another call and try again.

I used the callsign and QRZ info for a ham I know who doesn't use EchoLink. ( lots of those to choose from! )

Now that we have this issue settled; Is there anything else you folks would like to talk about?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Charles Brabham, N5PVL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Charles, your such a l33t hAx0r. Soon you might get to script kiddie status by learning how to ./configure, make, make install.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Charles, your such a l33t hAx0r. Soon you might get to script kiddie status by learning how to ./configure, make, make install. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Don't count on it! #I'm just an appliance operator. The big button on the front is what makes the computer work. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

I've pretty well got a head like a sieve... I'm a 13 wpm general who couldn't copy 5 wpm code or explain Ohm's law to save his soul.

Fortunately, I keep learning new stuff to replace the old stuff I keep forgetting!

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

I don't give a damn if my attitude scares off anyone. IRLP and Echolink is not ham radio, even if they do have some utilitanian value.

[N7MK]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for drill, I decided to hack EchoLink.

Now that we have this issue settled; Is there anything else you folks would like to talk about?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Of course the article said Echolink "will begin," not "had begun" using the LotW dig. certs to verify.

Try your test again then.

M

[n8ary]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wa4dou @ Sep. 30 2003,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't give a damn if my attitude scares off anyone. IRLP and Echolink is not ham radio, even if they do have some utilitanian value.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If it's not Ham radio, then why are you worried about it? QRZ is not Ham radio either. I see you are posting away. There is more out there than Ham Radio.

Other similar statements"

"Calculators are not Math"

"Cars and trains are not transportation, Horses are."

"e-mail is not mail"

"E-bay is not a real auction"

If it works, who cares? If it's not tying up the airwaves, who cares? Nobody said they would depend on it in an emergency. Stand-alone HF, VHF, and UHF rigs can do that. Even CW can do that (even though it's inefficient). Echolink is fun- period. We disable it during "real" nets to reserve air time for "real" radio.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for drill, I decided to hack EchoLink.

Now that we have this issue settled; #Is there anything else you folks would like to talk about?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course the article said Echolink "will begin," not "had begun" using the LotW dig. certs to verify.

Try your test again then.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, the system is in place now, according to the web-site. Also, you may have missed an important point: The new certification method is voluntary, giving you a chance to bypass the normal verification method which I managed to skip through quite handily. ( #Admittedly, a bit of luck was involved... I didn't think I would make it until my third or fourth try. #)

Since I did not choose to use the new system, I'll bet that we can reasonably assume that hackers and freebanders will not choose to, either.

AND it has not been established that the new system is really secure... Want to bet I can't insinuate my way past it? I'm just an appliance operator, and I've already hacked the basic "security" there, first try.

If you have ever known anybody who had the hacker mentality, you would not assume that having to try several callsigns in order to get a "hit" would slow any of those folks down. Once they are in - They're in!

------------------------------------------------

From usenet: # "Legal to Hack EchoLink?"

Let's see... If I were to set up a bogus hotmail or AOL account, pick out a callsign from the callbook and then set up to access EchoLink on my computer and skip around the different systems, playing "Gangsta Rap" and golden XXX-rated oldies by the "Fugs", and FBI recordings of rabbits being slaughtered over distant EchoLink repeaters - just for fun - would I be breaking any laws?

Remember that I would be accessing over the Internet, using a call I picked from a list, maybe even an inactive one. No radio involved, at least none of mine.

Who would be responsible for the transmissions on those distant repeaters?

Just what law or regulation would make it illegal to access EchoLink with a bogus callsign? I don't think there is one.

Should I cross-post this question to the newsgroups frequented by CB'ers, Freebanders, FRS folk, etc? #If not - Why not?

-----------------------------------------------

Something to consider, at any rate.

I don't really care about the security issue though, truth be told. The fact that non-hams can easily get into a non-ham communication system is not a big issue with me.

I know several hams who dropped all plans to upgrade the minute EchoLink came out, though. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of hams have already dropped plans to learn more about radio in order to upgrade, and a smaller but still significant number have even dropped plans to obtain a radio, all upon discovering the existence of EchoLink.

One ham in particular that I know had been struggling for months to get his 5wpm code down, was almost there, and dropped his studies like a hot potato the minute he heard about EchoLink.

I wonder how the manufacturers of HF rigs, antennas, and other ham equipment feel about that? How about your advertisers? Hmmmm?

That's a big issue with me. In fact, if I happened to meet the author of EchoLink in some dark, lonely place, I would be at least momentarily tempted to plant one of my #11's right up his hiney. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[AE6IP]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,13http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Great that the phone lines were up. Unfortunately, without power there were very few computers operating, including the ones at most ISP's.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I suspect you are wrong about most isps. Modern ISPs tend to keep their equipment in colocation facilities, which have fairly impressive backup power systems.

I do know that I was able to maintain realtime contact throughout the blackout with friends in the area, via IRC on the internet.

[W9JCM]

OMG thats all I can say. This has to be a joke. Listen I was the first guy in Nevada to have echolink. And I hardly run my link anymore for low use and loss of interest. I like the VIOP it has its place but its over the internet and its not RF. This really takes the cake. I am so so glad I dumped the ARRL. I dx and use a alternate means of sending cards out. Maybe I should make certificates out for who can get worked all states using your cordless phone? COME ON GUYS.

[K8SWL]

Security? Validation of users? Bootleggers?
Do we have them on Echolink?
I'm sure there probably are bootleggers out there.
Do we have them on the radio?
I'm sure there probably are bootleggers out there too!

The good folks at echolink are making efforts to make the system more secure. Granted it's not totally foolproof, but what system is.

How many of you verify that the call of the guy you are yacking on the radio with is valid and it is in fact the person that it was issued to that you are speaking with. I think that would be kinda tough to do! It doesn't matter if it's echolink, 20 meters , 10 meters or 2 meters, at some point in time bootleggers do operate everywhere. Look at the world of DXing, operators saying they are in some remote/rare location when in fact they were in a posh hotel on a nearby island. No matter what the operation, we can find flaws.

Is Echolink real radio?
From my perspective, Yes ! I found a renewed interest in the hobby combining an interest in computers with an interest in radios. Building nodes, converting commercial gear to use on the nodes. Building interfaces. Yes thats right, "building", that thing we used to do a lot 30 years ago. Remember soldering irons?

I hate seeing such friction over echolink. It's one more mode of communications in this intersting hobby of ours. To a person interested in DXing, or HF SSTV or a ragchewer or whatever your interests might be, echolink may not seem like a part of the hobby but to many it is one more interesting facet of the hobby. As I type this,there are 1669 connections to Echolink. Some are people connecting with computers only, but the majority are repeaters and simplex nodes. Obviously some interest.

Is Echolink reliable enough to use for emergency communications?

During the blackout, I never lost my DSL connection here in Detroit. I had to power the computer, modem and radio by generator, but I never lost the connection. Granted I could have lost it, but then it would be a matter of using other means. Echolink is just one more tool to have available in the event of an emergency.

Guess I've rambled on enough. If anyone has developed any other new radio/computer/internet systems, contact me, I'd love to be a Beta tester. Let technology roll on.

K8SWL
Good Day!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe I should make certificates out for who can get worked all states using your cordless phone? COME ON GUYS.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That reminded me of the "WATV" certificates that I used to print out and distribute to local hams as a joke. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

[K0RGR]

Charles, nobody said it couldn't be done. Echolink verified that it was a real callsign. I presume that you also lied and used the name from the database? If not, then I would agree that Echolink needs to be more dilligent. The fact is still that I have not yet detected a bootlegger and I've been trying. If we've had any, and we may well have, they weren't disruptive and didn't call any attention to themselves, unlike some I've heard on area repeaters. So far, I don't have a reason to care.

I am truly sorry to hear that someone decided to give up studying the code in favor of Echolink. I believe they will soon decide that was a foolish thing to do. If FCC abolishes the General code test, will they then decide to get on HF, or were there other reasons they went the Echolink route? I suspect that like too many others, they really stopped studying code when ITU dropped their requirement.

I think my experience has been just the opposite. Echolink has gotten several friends and a couple relatives of mine back on the air - first with Echolink and then with HF. I know several newcomers who got interested in working 'DX' via Echolink and are now Generals. I do know some who operate Echolink exclusively, but these are people who told us that they had no intention of learning the code before they ever heard of Echolink. At least one area ham uses it from his room at the retirement home where RF is not allowed.

My boots are size 13. I guess I win.

[ag9r]

LOOK OUT, and duck here it comes now a Code Debate from the last posting........



Running Like Hell..............

[AE6IP]

HURRICANE JUAN 2003
PRESS RELEASE : Issued Tuesday, September 30th, 2003

Amateur Radio Operations at The National Hurricane Center during
Hurricane JUAN
Contact: John McHugh, KU4GY@ARRL.net

WX4NHC, the Amateur Radio station at the National Hurricane Center in
Miami, Florida,
established communications with Amateur Radio Operators in Nova Scotia
during Hurricane Juan's land fall.

Hurricane Juan, a Cat-1 hurricane, with sustained winds of 80 MPH with
higher gust was one of the strongest hurricanes to make direct landfall
on Nova Scotia since Hurricane Hortense in 1996. Landfall was early
Monday morning just east of Halifax, near St. Margaret's bay during high
tide. Hundreds of people are reported to have been evacuated from low
lying areas as a precaution. Halifax Airport recorded a wind gust of 143
Km/H (88MPH).

Communications were establish using EchoLink, a new high-tech hybrid
mode of Amateur Radio
Communications that combines the use of VHF Ham Radio with the
Internet. This allows WX4NHC to connect to local repeaters in the
affected area and talk with hams using their VHF/UHF radios to that
local repeaters. They can use EchoLink to transmit and receive voice and
data and even participate in a Conference Room, similar to a Chat Room,
with hundreds of other Hams.


"Surface Reports" were received from Nelson Burgoyne VE1GO, who lives in
near Sydney Harbor, about 200 feet from the shoreline. Bob Roper
VE1CRR, who lives on Cape Breton Island reported that the Halifax area
lost many large trees, downed power lines and roof damage. Bob has
heard of at least two fatalities caused by Hurricane Juan, one being a
Paramedic who was killed by a fallen tree during the storm. Jim Milner,
VE1VIA in Amherst, north of Halifax, reported at about 10pm that in
Halifax the power was out and the 2 main bridges were now closed.

The WX4NHC Group continues to expanded its efforts to increase the
quantity and quality of
surface reports to include many different modes of reception and groups
of people;
including HF, VHF/UHF IRLP & Echolink, VHF & HF APRS, CWOP NOAA Program,
CARMEN Program and ON-NHC Weather Observers Network.
(see our web site for more information on these programs):
http://www.wx4nhc.org

WX4NHC, a group of volunteer Amateur Radio operators, are very proud to
have maintained
an active Amateur Radio Station at the National Hurricane Center for the
past 23 years.

John
--
John Mc Hugh, KU4GY
Coordinator for Amateur Radio
National Hurricane Center, WX4NHC
Home page:- http://www.wx4nhc.org

[n7wsb]

echolink and similar technologies are not just over computers. Often times it is used like a trunk line to connect mobiles/portables all over the world.

I had a chance to use echolink over 10 meters fm once - it was really cool to be able to talk to someone on a 2m handheld across the country while mobile.

[kc0jez]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K0RGR @ Sep. 30 2003,10:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who prefer, there is a Linux version of the Echolink client available now, too.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
There is also a version for Mac..cleverly called "EchoMac"
http://www.dogparksoftware.com/EchoMac.html
Dosen't have all the functions of the original program..but give 'em time..it's still a pretty new program.

[K2HCW]

THE GOOD NEWS :
ALL AMATEUR RADIO TESTS HAVE BEEN DROPPED
THE BAD NEWS:
IQ TEST TO REPLACE

[W8UR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Just what law or regulation would make it illegal to access EchoLink with a bogus callsign? I don't think there is one.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

In the USA, the ECPA, 18 USC 2511.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">THE GOOD NEWS :
ALL AMATEUR RADIO TESTS HAVE BEEN DROPPED
THE BAD NEWS:
IQ TEST TO REPLACE[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That sure would put a big dent in the EchoLink problem.

Speaking of which, I think the new security thing may well accomplish the same goal. A lot of the "who cares about the rules" types who are attracted to EchoLink because they percieve it as a way to bypass the FCC liscensing system will soon be losing that sense of enchantment when they discover that they have to go through a complicated, invasive, lengthy rigamarole in order to use the software.

I still haven't heard an answer about the alleged 100,000 anonymous EchoLink users who downloaded and installed the software prior to the new "lock the barn door after the horses have gotten out" security system that the QRZ dude is so impressed with. I wonder why he never answered my question about that? - Too embarassed by the truth, and unwilling to lie? If so, at least that speaks well for his character.

But then again, he didn't answer the question about how his advertisers will feel about him promoting a non-ham setup that discourages new hams from either upgrading or buying new radios, antennas, etc... He's still trying to come up with a rationalization to cover that one too, I suppose.

I guess some things are just better left unsaid. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[kw9u]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Oct. 01 2003,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[...]
I guess some things are just better left unsaid. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


Charles Brabham, #N5PVL


.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You're beginning to catch on.

[ke4pjw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Speaking of which, I think the new security thing may well accomplish the same goal. A lot of the "who cares about the rules" types who are attracted to EchoLink because they percieve it as a way to bypass the FCC liscensing system will soon be losing that sense of enchantment when they discover that they have to go through a complicated, invasive, lengthy rigamarole in order to use the software.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Where did you get the idea that there are "who cares about the rules" types using echolink? I would suspect that anyone who puts up a node realizes that they are responsible for any transmissions from their node.

Anyone who is found to be a pirate could be taken care of fairly easy. Most ISP's use an authentication system called RADIUS. It logs when you logged on and off, what IP address you are assigned and what number you called from. (ANI, not Caller ID) You have a paper trail.

If on the other hand, someone buys a $50 2 meter HT from Radio Shack, you have no way of tracking that person down other than DFing them.

I myself have never used echolink, but I doubt it is ripe with abusers. Do you have any real world examples of abuse?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N7MK @ Sep. 30 2003,08:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like Echolink or not, I think you guys are completely missing it.

They are not saying that ARRL Logbook of the World is accepting Echolink contacts for awards, etc.

They are saying that the digital verification certificate you get when registering for LoTW will be accepted for verification to access Echolink.


M

"Ready.... FIRE!!!... #aim."[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What a joke...what means have they been using before to verify the real or fake hams?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif QRZ/FCC database i reckon.
Next thing they will except is phone line dx!!! QRZ are code 212 break break....
Whats with the arrl code tests still going to 35 wpm and wasting spectrum especially 3580?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I myself have never used echolink, but I doubt it is ripe with abusers. Do you have any real world examples of abuse? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Why, yes I can. In fact, I know of an abuse that occurred just yesterday. Some guy went through their "security" and got into the system with a bogus callsign.

Some people are just incorrigable, I suppose.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where did you get the idea that there are "who cares about the rules" types using echolink?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I got it from talking to EchoLink users in my area, and from reading posts on numerous Internet discussion such as this one. The hams who strongly disagree with incentive liscensing, morse code etc. are real suckers for EchoLink. It lets them pretend that they have flaunted the rules somehow. I've heard them crow about it on many occasions, and am surprised you you have not run across this kind of thing, yourself. It is quite common.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyone who is found to be a pirate could be taken care of fairly easy.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Can you say... "Internet Cafe?"

Ole'! #The rules for usage in the cafes I have encountered vary wildly, depending on where you are, who you are, and who you know. Then again, there are always work computers, etc.

There are some folks who use their own computers to play those kind of games, but it is not because they particularly have to. You can find computers with Internet access just about anywhere.

Then there is always WI-FI... The possibilities are endless, as you should know.

So while it is true that anyone who is found to be a pirate could be taken care of fairly easy, it is also true that finding them in order to do so is not always so easy - unless they make it so, themselves.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[n8ary]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is also a version for Mac..cleverly called "EchoMac"
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hey there, dude, Mac is not real computers, because the Microsoft God says so. DOGMA RULES!!!

Just kidding. I don't use MAC, but I hear it's got its advantages. I'm an appliance op when it comes to computers.

Couldn't resist.

[n8ary]

Would someone PLEASE turn this into a Code Vs No-Code thread? I think this is a record and it's killing me!

[NW5E]

You have got to be kidding me! This is pure BS. Internet linking is just another form of Repeater!

What is the hobby coming to?

Gary NW5E http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[KH2D]

Can you say... "Internet Cafe?"

You'll have to excuse my friend Charlie. He's really a nice guy, but when you say INTERNET he gets his panties all tied up in knots......

Charlie, can you say "Expand Your Horizons" ? I use Echolink to talk to friends in Hawaii, Guam, etc. Radios on both ends, with the internet in the middle as an EXTENSION of existing VHF radios/repeater systems. I'm not looking for QSL cards, or DXCC clicks, or anybody's approval for what I'm doing. I do it to keep in touch with old friends.

Charlie, I've had my VHF radio connected to the internet via Echolink for about a year, and never had any problems with any bootleggers.

Also have a complete HF station (http://kh2d.net/kh7r/) that is controlled remotely via the internet, never had any bootleggers on that one either. #

Now that you have downloaded the program and signed up with somebody else's call sign, you should take a few minutes to look at it and see how it works.

I can configure it so that nobody can "use" my radio unless I specifically give them permission to use it by setting up their call on an accept list. So in comparison, it's much more "secure" than a local VHF radio/repeater or an HF radio.

Wish I could do that with my local HF radio, instead of just turning it on and having to listen to any moron that comes thru the speaker.

Ham radio used to be about experimenting, homebrewing, and learning new techniques. Now it seems to be about arguing on QRZ.Com for a lot of "hams".

It's almost 2004 Charlie, the INTERNET is GOOD when used properly, and it's highly doubtful that ham radio is going to dump it and go back to 1200 baud packet.

Anyway, nice to see you're still kicking and stirring up the troops.

73, Jim KH2D

[n8ary]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That sure would put a big dent in the EchoLink problem.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

And what "problem" is that?

[KC2X]

What's Echolink? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kevin Springle, KC2X

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What's Echolink?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hams getting on the Internet and pretending that it is ham radio.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC2X @ Oct. 01 2003,17:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What's Echolink? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kevin Springle, KC2X[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Echolink (http://www.echolink.org/) is described on the echolink.org web site.

A tiny group of people who have never used it are making a lot of unjustified and baseless claims about it.

I think they're still mad about AM replacing spark gap or something.


It turns out to be a lot of fun, and the National Hurricaine Center has already found it useful.

[N7MK]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Oct. 01 2003,04:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still haven't heard an answer about the alleged 100,000 anonymous EchoLink users who downloaded and installed the software prior to the new "lock the barn door after the horses have gotten out" security system that the QRZ dude is so impressed with. I wonder why he never answered my question about that? - Too embarassed by the truth, and unwilling to lie? If so, at least that speaks well for his character.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, l33t hAx0r... I didn't know the question was specifically targeted at me. I don't know the answer, and unlike some, when I don't have the answers, I don't just make some up. I am willing to intake information instead of professing to know it all.

If you'll carefully read what I've written, I've never said whether I was or was not impressed with Echolink or it's security.

I am not an Echolink user.

Why don't you simply go to the Echolink people and ask them? Or would that make too much sense? Or are you afraid you would not get the answer you are looking for?

I guess you're not so sure there are 100,000 "anonymous EchoLink users" or you wouldn't keep referring to them as "alleged." Perhaps you should find out the truth before spewing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I haven't seen any proof. And I would think if there were so many, more people would be coming forward that have encountered them.


M

[AE6IP]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Oct. 01 2003,15http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Why, yes I can. In fact, I know of an abuse that occurred just yesterday. Some guy went through their "security" and got into the system with a bogus callsign.

Some people are just incorrigable, I suppose.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Let me see if I have this right: the only example of abuse you have is yourself?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
The hams who strongly disagree with incentive liscensing, morse code etc. are real suckers for EchoLink. It lets them pretend that they have flaunted the rules somehow. I've heard them crow about it on many occasions, and am surprised you you have not run across this kind of thing, yourself. It is quite common.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If it's quite common then you should have no trouble posting URLs that point to this crowing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Can you say... "Internet Cafe?"
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Can you say Ham store?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
So while it is true that anyone who is found to be a pirate could be taken care of fairly easy, it is also true that finding them in order to do so is not always so easy - unless they make it so, themselves.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

why exactly is it that you think the internet should have higher standards than stores that sell ham gear?

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc0jez @ Oct. 01 2003,05:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K0RGR @ Sep. 30 2003,10:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For those who prefer, there is a Linux version of the Echolink client available now, too.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
There is also a version for Mac..cleverly called "EchoMac"
http://www.dogparksoftware.com/EchoMac.html
Dosen't have all the functions of the original program..but give 'em time..it's still a pretty new program.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Wooohoooo! That means it wouldnt take much to make it work with.............FreeBSD!

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ke4pjw @ Sep. 30 2003,16:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 29 2003,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just for drill, I decided to hack EchoLink.

The server said it would take an hour to "validate" my bogus callsign ( taken from QRZ, of course! ) but actually it only took twenty minutes for me to get connected to the test server.

If the call had been one of those being verified, it would have been a simple matter to pick out another call and try again.

I used the callsign and QRZ info for a ham I know who doesn't use EchoLink. ( #lots of those to choose from! #)

Now that we have this issue settled; #Is there anything else you folks would like to talk about?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Charles, your such a l33t hAx0r. Soon you might get to script kiddie status by learning how to ./configure, make, make install.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dont forget, he has to learn what "su" is first. #And after that, most will just wait for the BSD port to come out with a standard issue and just do a "make all install clean"

Can someone give me the source on this to port it to a Solaris version? #

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still haven't heard an answer about the alleged 100,000 anonymous EchoLink users who downloaded and installed the software prior to the new "lock the barn door after the horses have gotten out" security system that the QRZ dude is so impressed with. I wonder why he never answered my question about that? - Too embarassed by the truth, and unwilling to lie? If so, at least that speaks well for his character.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, l33t hAx0r... I didn't know the question was specifically targeted at me. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

(Sigh) # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif # You did the 1st post on the 3rd page here, quoted and answered on the 3rd post, same page.

Then you did the last post on the 3rd page, answered by me on the 2nd post, 4th page.

The way you can tell is you see things you have said in the little "quote" boxes, followed by the responding party's - response.

I'm not sure, but it may be that QRZ has a FAQ that you can consult to make this stuff easier to follow.

l33t hAx0r d00d my patoot, by the way... I'm just an average appliance operator. My ten year-old son could have just as easily hacked EchoLink's alleged "security". It wasn't difficult or complicated... Not at all.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I don't know the answer, and unlike some, when I don't have the answers, I don't just make some up. #I am willing to intake information instead of professing to know it all.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I mentioned my suspicion that that was the case. I thought it spoke well of your character, and it does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you'll carefully read what I've written, I've never said whether I was or was not impressed with Echolink or it's security.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Here you start to go into "damage control" mode, disassociating yourself with the QRZ topic that was kicked off by your own post.

I think they call that "crawfishing"... If you are not impressed with EchoLink and do not use it yourself, what motivated you to start this topic? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but when hams post a new topic here, it is generally and reasonably assumed that they have some interest in that topic's subject.

( #Duh! #) # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif # Note that when you dissemble and crawfish this way, it is not necessarily mine or other QRZ readers' intelligence that is being insulted.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess you're not so sure there are 100,000 "anonymous EchoLink users" or you wouldn't keep referring to them as "alleged." #Perhaps you should find out the truth before spewing? [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I referred to your allegation in your first post here, the one which initiated this topic:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now in its second year of operation, EchoLink has been adopted by more than 100,000 licensed Amateurs in 139 countries worldwide.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Apparently you are not sure of the accuracy of your own statement now. Shouldn't you find out the truth before spewing?

What I referred to was the fact that this original 100,000 users did not have to be verified in any way, shape, form, or fashion. That has been verified by one of the posters here, as well as by my personal experiences over the last few years.

They are effectively "anonymous".... Nobody knows how many of them are hams, and how many are not. - Which was precisely my point.

Just for drill, why not try to Google EchoLink and Freeband, or Freebander? It appears that encounters with freebanders on EchoLink systems are not unknown.

Now that we have that settled: #It appears that you have managed to overlook another question I had for you, the same as you did the one above. I am referring of course, to:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really care about the security issue though, truth be told. The fact that non-hams can easily get into a non-ham communication system is not a big issue with me.

I know several hams who dropped all plans to upgrade the minute EchoLink came out, though. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of hams have already dropped plans to learn more about radio in order to upgrade, and a smaller but still significant number have even dropped plans to obtain a radio, all upon discovering the existence of EchoLink.

One ham in particular that I know had been struggling for months to get his 5wpm code down, was almost there, and dropped his studies like a hot potato the minute he heard about EchoLink.

I wonder how the manufacturers of HF rigs, antennas, and other ham equipment feel about that? How about your advertisers? Hmmmm?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

About that ham I mentioned above... Do you want to make a wild guess about what happened to his plans to buy an HF rig, antenna, and other station accesories after he determined that it was no longer necessary for him to upgrade his liscense in order to make "DX" contacts?

- So I'll ask again, and I believe that this is a fair question:

How do you think your advertisers will feel about you ( a superadminstrator at QRZ ) activily promoting a system that has already deprived them of many sales related to HF equipment, antennas, and dozens of other ham RADIO accesories, and will deprive them of many more sales in the future?

Before you start crawfishing again, I'll point out the obvious to you one more time by saying that when you post a new topic here and speak of XYZ in glowing terms, readers here will naturally and reasonably take that post as a promotion of XYZ. - And so will your advertisers.

One of the most common expressions about EchoLink by new hams is that they are oh so relieved that they will not have to learn and study to upgrade - OR - have to save up to buy an HF rig in order to make "DX" contacts, due to the advent of EchoLink. Many of them express satisfaction in having "gotten around" the ARRL's incentive liscensing system.

That's about as good for the hobby as it is for the manufacturers and retailers who supply the equipment that we use.

Those are manufacturers and retailers are your advertisers, in case you have forgotten.

- And Ham RADIO is your hobby, in case you have forgotten that too.

If you don't really care about one, I'm hoping you will show some intelligent, informed concern about the other.

This would be a good opportunity to display the good character evident in your earlier statement:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I am willing to intake information instead of professing to know it all. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[w8amd]

Echolink? Just downloaded it and installed it last night to see what all the fuss is about. May be a useful app in certain situations. Just another tool in the box, but is it radio? Well partially but no cigar.

I am sure there will be uses for it but to call it radio is like riding in a car for 20 odd miles then running a couple and calling it a marathon, only partly true.

I may use it at times, not sure yet, but to ask for or send qsls for contacts over it is a bit absurd.

Back to the subject of the thread. Echolink is probably here to stay. In that sense I applaud any efforts to make it more secure.

[N7MK]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Oct. 02 2003,03:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here you start to go into "damage control" mode, disassociating yourself with the QRZ topic that was kicked off by your own post.

I think they call that "crawfishing"... If you are not impressed with EchoLink and do not use it yourself, what motivated you to start this topic? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but when hams post a new topic here, it is generally and reasonably assumed that they have some interest in that topic's subject.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Pay attention, Charles.. The original post of this thread I APPROVED as an editor... it was submitted by K1RFD the Echolink guy. There was a byline attributing him by name and call, and even gave his email address for you to ask questions. Sorta like a "press release." He submitted it to us (and other ham sites) and asked us to post it.. so I did. I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear or obvious to YOU.

I didn't write it. Never stated what my opinion on the subject was.

Then people started confusing what it said with the idea that it meant ARRL/LotW was going to start accepting Echolink contacts for QSLs and toward awards. And I clarified that wasn't what it meant.

Oh.. and just to make it perfectly clear before someone gets some wild ideas that I am somehow involved in Rohn's Ch. 11, I didn't write that press release, either. Nor many of the other articles submitted to us that I've transferred to this forum in the past.

Sheesh. I think they call what you're doing is professing to know it all, without realizing the facts. Or maybe you just like to argue with everyone for the fun of argument and consternation. Filling your own mouth (or keyboard fingers) with words seems to be more than a full time job. Don't try to put words in my mouth, too.


M

I had a feeling that my question would be answered with more crawfishing...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pay attention, Charles.. The original post of this thread I APPROVED as an editor... it was submitted by K1RFD the Echolink guy. #There was a byline attributing him by name and call, and even gave his email address for you to ask questions. #Sorta like a "press release." #He submitted it to us (and other ham sites) and asked us to post it.. so I did. #I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear or obvious to YOU.

I didn't write it. # Never stated what my opinion on the subject was. #
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

And sure enough, there it was. #I have submitted a number of news items here at QRZ, and invariably it has displayed my name and avatar in the normal place used for identifying.

Just for drill, I asked a ham who came by to take a look at N7MK's post ( go to page 1, and look for yourself ) and there was no indication that he had not written and posted it himself.

Now N7MK is saying that K1RFD gets somebody at QRZ to "gopher" for him, for his news items, I suppose so he won't have to waste any of his valuable time submitting the new topic the same way everybody else has to.

Gee, it's nice to know that K1RFD is not being given special treatment by N7MK, or anything like that! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then people started confusing what it said with the idea that it meant ARRL/LotW was going to start accepting Echolink contacts for QSLs and toward awards. #And I clarified that wasn't what it meant.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Actually you kind of "jumped the gun" and wigged out before the subject had actually been brought up. You were the one of the first, and just about the only person to bring this up during the entire discussion. In fact, that subject had already been covered, and one poster joked about it, then you went ballistic. I saw no actual complaint on that subject until some time after your post. This behavior does not jibe with your protestations of disinterest. ( go to page 1, and look for yourself )

If you are going to crawfish, at least make some effort to do so in a way that is not so easy to shoot down by a simple reference as I have just done. As I have noted before, it is not necessarily mine or other readers' intelligence which is insulted when you do so.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh.. and just to make it perfectly clear before someone gets some wild ideas that I am somehow involved in Rohn's Ch. 11, I didn't write that press release, either. #Nor many of the other articles submitted to us that I've transferred to this forum in the past.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Every time I have submitted a news article, it has been posted with my name and avatar. If you think that I am supposed to feel bad because you have handled other articles this way, you have missed your mark.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sheesh. #I think they call what you're doing is professing to know it all, without realizing the facts. #Or maybe you just like to argue with everyone for the fun of argument and consternation. #Filling your own mouth (or keyboard fingers) with words seems to be more than a full time job.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yada yada yada.. Now you are complaining about the simple fact that I exist. Where's my crying towel?

Now that we have dealt with this latest crawdaddy attack, I'll return to my original question, still being evaded:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really care about the security issue though, truth be told. The fact that non-hams can easily get into a non-ham communication system is not a big issue with me.

I know several hams who dropped all plans to upgrade the minute EchoLink came out, though. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of hams have already dropped plans to learn more about radio in order to upgrade, and a smaller but still significant number have even dropped plans to obtain a radio, all upon discovering the existence of EchoLink.

One ham in particular that I know had been struggling for months to get his 5wpm code down, was almost there, and dropped his studies like a hot potato the minute he heard about EchoLink.

I wonder how the manufacturers of HF rigs, antennas, and other ham equipment feel about that? How about your advertisers? Hmmmm?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif #Instead of all this wiggling, squirming, and personal attacks, why don't you just work up your courage and answer my question? #- Or at least admit that you would rather not do so? You are certainly not obligated to do so. Either one of those would be preferable to the display you have been putting on here.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

OMG
Lets clear up some
misconceptions about ECHOLINK RIGHT NOW!!


1. Echo link which uses the Internet contrary to popular belief is not the (((Anti-Christ!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif))
By the way Einstein… You’re using the Internet to read this dummy!!!!!!!!
Obviously you enjoy the internet!

2. Echo link has never... never... been advertised as emergency communications.
However in the even of an emergency… dummy, and you do have echo link on your computer..
and no other communications ie phone ie 2m handi..

Please fell free to use echo link to save your sorry self… or others..


3. Echolink will not cause cancer...however your computer monitor might…

4. Echolink will not clog your pipes...with unsightly hairs..

5. Echolink will not cause unsightly piles of dog excrement on your new carpet..

6. Echolink will not run off with the following.. Your Ts-2000 . Golf clubs, dog or even wife...

7. Echolink is not dummy proof you need some common sense to run it...Hmmmm there may lie the problem hmmmm…

8. Echolink will probably not be used by terrorist to infiltrate the government...
and gain access to super duper secret sensitive files...

9. You cant get a virus from running echo link even if you are that naive about internet matters..
You can get a virus from opening up an E-mail with an attachment from other echolink hating hams to you… however..

10. And the last thing Echolink will not do is drive hams away from radios….
Echolink promotes ham radio speaking talking sharing… ham radio ideas…
There are over 100,000 hams waiting to hear from you on echolink… better on echolink then aol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10. This message was generated by a echolink loving ham who has been hamming for over 22 years now, and enjoys all modes of ham radio including internet based software programs to talk to raving qrz fuddy duddies………LIKE YOU!




Peace love and moms home cooking man!


Joey Joe Jo

WØANT
Life long ham
Yady yaddy yadda!



http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KH2D]

Joe, you were doing good until you got here.....

10. And the last thing Echolink will not do is drive hams away from radios….
Echolink promotes ham radio speaking talking sharing… ham radio ideas…

There are two kinds of hams using Echolink. Those with radios, and those without radios. Those without may tend to stay that way.

There are over 100,000 hams waiting to hear from you on echolink… better on echolink then aol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somebody needs to explain this figure. There are NOT 100,000 hams USING Echolink. There may be 10% of 100,000 hams using it, but not at the same time.

There are 100,000 hams who have DOWNLOADED Echolink and/or ILink maybe. But on a busy day there are about 1,800 stations on the server......

Not that it matters, but just because Charlie is making up "facts" doesn't mean everybody else has to do the same.......


73, Jim KH2D

P.S. Eleven comes after ten.

[G0MZS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w0ant @ Oct. 02 2003,12:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Echo link which uses the Internet contrary to popular belief is not the (((Anti-Christ!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif))
By the way Einstein… You’re using the Internet to read this dummy!!!!!!!!
Obviously you enjoy the internet!


Peace love and moms home cooking man![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Not Amateur radio.
Moms cooking looks like Burger king cooking to me big boy http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Think side salad better for you http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

g0mzs@blueyonder.co.uk you can take the side salad and well I didnt crawl to the top of the food chain to graze like you!


OHHHHHHHH !!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Echo link which uses the Internet contrary to popular belief is not the (((Anti-Christ!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)
By the way Einstein… You’re using the Internet to read this dummy!!!!!!!!
Obviously you enjoy the internet!
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, No! #- I thought this was packet radio! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[N2ECR]

I've tried the "Links" (Echolink, I-Link, chainlink, Etc..). I was not very impressed. Like someone said earlier, It's like calling another country via long distance landline and asking how the weather is. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

It is not an option during emergency communications, especially out in the field. In order to get a connection in the field you would need you're cell phone connected to the laptop, providing the cell sites aren't overloaded. Also, in the case during the blackout, there was no commercial power, the laptop battery don't last for squat.
Even if you were to be indoors during a blackout, a generator could keep the laptop running (for a short while), but you would still have problems with landline service, either being out or overloaded.

I don't see much use for it.

73 (Echolink users and non-users alike.)

Joe
N2ECR

[KH2D]

The original post of this thread I APPROVED as an editor...

For future reference, if the email contains "EchoLink", "IRLP", "Morse Code", or "CW" it might be a good idea not to approve it.

These are known argument starters......

But then again, the more arguments you have going, the more page views you get, the more people click blinky ads and make advertisers happy........

73, Jim KH2D

[KH2D]

It's like calling another country via long distance landline and asking how the weather is.

Or calling somebody on a VHF repeater....... #

Even if you were to be indoors during a blackout, a generator could keep the laptop running (for a short while), but you would still have problems with landline service, either being out or overloaded.

Not necessarily so. After a major typhoon in 1997, I relayed damage information back to the ARRL and the American Red Cross using nothing but email. Commercial power was off. ISP was running on a generator, and I was using a generator and batteries. Of course the ARRL wanted to make it sound like Amateur Radio saved the day, but in fact it was just email that did the work.... Link to ARRL article. (http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/97/971219/)

If Echolink had been available back then, it would have been very useful for the situation we were in. Wind gusts in Typhoon Paka were measured at 235 mph, which at the time was supposedly the fastest windspeed ever measured on the face of the earth, but the phones worked fine during and after the typhoon, and so did the local ISP.

73, Jim KH2D

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N2ECR @ Oct. 02 2003,18:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not an option during emergency communications, especially out in the field.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

and yet, the Hurricaine Watch Net has used echolink for emergency communitications.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
In order to get a connection in the field you would need you're cell phone connected to the laptop, providing the cell sites aren't overloaded.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Or, you could use your HT in the field to hit a repeater that was linked to echolink.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Also, in the case during the blackout, there was no commercial power, the laptop battery don't last for squat.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

So you use one of the handhelds that can run Linux and go all day on a battery.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Even if you were to be indoors during a blackout, a generator could keep the laptop running (for a short while),
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Unless you've got a system that allows you to operate off grid for an extended period.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
but you would still have problems with landline service, either being out or overloaded.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Unless you've got a DSL line that connects you to a colo that has good peering.

73

[VA7ADR]

HAM RADIO = XCVR + MIC/KEYER + ANTENNA

A strange side-note about EchoLink....

As worthless, divisive, and destructive to the hobby as EchoLink is, almost the exact reverse is true of another bit of software by the same author.

EchoStation is a PC-based repeater controller / automated announcement device that also runs under "Winders" as we say in some parts of Texas, utilizing a soundcard with PTT interface.

Take my word for it, EchoStation is a great boon to the hobby. Something that at least on my part was long anticipated. I've always thought an easily updated, automated announcement system for voice repeaters would be useful, and it really is! Strange that the same ham would do so much for the hobby with one program, then even the score by undermining and creating division within the same hobby with his next effort.

One theme that runs through all of this author's ham radio software is that manufacturers and retailers of amateur radio equipment take a big hit as a result of its' utilization.

He started off on the smaller game with EchoStation, which only affected the sales of repeater controllers, then raised his sights for the "big game", HF rigs, antennas, heck he'll fix it up so that you don't even have to buy a stinking little handy-talkie. A two for one, he also magaged to undermine the operation of incentive liscensing. No ham radio equipment required, just cram for the exam and run my software. You'll be DX'ing in minutes. - Who needs to learn anything about stinking RADIO? Why even own one?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

This same concept ( Amateur Telephhone ) was tried here in the U.S. about a decade ago, not long after Internet access became widely available. Instead of voice repeaters though, Internet junkies were going to "improve" the U.S. packet radio network, at that time the most advanced in the world, by introducing Internet links. In most of Europe, introducing non-ham links of any type into an amateur radio network was illegal so those folks just kept on working with RADIO.

Within ten years, the U.S. packet network had shrunken to a shadow of what it had once had been, while the European network had just kept right on growing and advancing all of that time. I think they are into 19.2kb access with 76.8kb fulldup backbone these days... I haven't checked in a while. I do know that they have packet nodes that process more than 10MB of data per hour. - Just think ten *productive* years ahead of the best we ever had here in the U.S., and you'll get a good picture of the situation.

The large-scale VHF/UHF packet networks in the U.S. took a big hit but all of them hung in there and are now growing again, except for one.

Slightly before the widespread infestation of packet/internet gateways that gutted packet radio in the U.S., The Texas Packet Radio Society decided well, to heck with radio. They started incorporating non-ham (donated fiber optic) links between their nodes instead of the UHF 9.6k links they had been using previously.

This was a shame, because TexNet was advanced for its time, with 9600 bd backbone links comprising a network of around 100 nodes. It had a 600x250 mile+ footprint of decent coverage, augmented by 1.2kb NetRom, KNODE and ROSE networks that participated in distribution. - All originally done with RF, something to be proud of *as a ham*.

Then TPRS decided to use Internet links between nodes, because fiber optic links were only available at a few sites, located in metro areas.

In case you haven't guessed, TexNet was that single case in the entire U.S. of a large-scale packet network completely disappearing, falling off of the face of the Earth. Now less than a dozen nodes are scattered around, most not linked to the others at all. The old 1.2kb NetRom, ROSE, and KNODE stuff that pre-dated TexNet is still there.

Another network the Internet junkies decided to "help out"... Remember the global HF packet network, that could reliably deliver a packet message just about anywhere within a few days, and across the U.S. in less than an hour?

Something to think about: Why do European hams have regulatory protection against this kind of corruption while we do not?

I don't know how our manufacturers of HF rigs, antennas, and station equipment feel about "Amateur Telephone", but does anybody remember DRSI? How about AEA? #These are companies that took a major hit when the U.S. packet net was decimated by the inroduction of packet/internet gateways and hams stopped buying TNC's. DRSI quit making ham equipment altogether, while AEA was eventually sold.

The packet users in Europe had to deal with the advent of the Internet, just as we did. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind as to who developed and implemented the best policy?

Does anybody know if the ham radio manufacurers and retailers are all rolling in dough these days, ready to ride out another big hit? If not, they ought to be talking to congress about protection. They can most easily obtain that by asking that we as hams get the same protection against the incorporation of non-ham links that has worked out so well for Europe. That's all it would take for them to put a stop to this drain on their resources, and aid in the advancement of amateur radio in the U.S. at the same time.

Write them! Write the manufacturers and retailers. Write your congressman, write the ARRL and our ARRL affiliate, the Department of Homeland Security. Quote me if you like, but your own words are best.

...Or maybe you would rather be indulging in nostalgia in a few years, talking about the days when there were several major brands of ham radio equipment, with dozens and dozens of models to choose from.

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (VA7ADR @ Oct. 02 2003,21:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HAM RADIO = XCVR + MIC/KEYER + ANTENNA[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
so my laptop using wi-fi and voip through echolink to someone on the other end is ham radio, then.

cool

[K3DAV]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (VA7ADR @ Oct. 03 2003,00:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HAM RADIO = XCVR + MIC/KEYER + ANTENNA[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
HAM RADIO =
1 #A hobby.
2 A service.
3 A XCVR
4 ANY DEVICE THAT USES OR TRANSMITS OVER THE AIR ON FREQUENCIES DESIGNATED FOR AMATEUR RADIO USE.

Echolink and IRLP utilize amateur repeaters, and amateur frequencies, (Just like your radio), to make contacts to other amateurs, over the airwaves, on their radios. Your computer becomes your remote radio controller, and the internet is the wire that carries your voice to the transmitter, (Repeater). #From there it is all over the airwaves. #If that isn't radio, then what the hell is it? #It is just another way to make contacts on the amateur bands. #Echolink saves you the time of going to other cities or countries, just like a repeater saves you the time of driving up to the mountaintop to talk for 150 miles. #They are both, ways of cheating, but they are both still radio.

********************************************

The security issue is almost a moot point. #It may not be a 100% solution, but at least Echolink is trying to do something about it. #You can't say that about any retailer selling amateur radios to anyone with the cash. No varification required. #

Of all the Echolink contacts I have made, I haven't found a bootlegger. #I verify through emails and snail mail to contacts on Echolink. #I have never had a reply that wondered what the hell I was talking about. #They all replied with varification of our contact, and their addresses were always the same as their address in the FCC database. #Now if the FCC database is listing bootleggers, then we all have a serious problem.

Of course Echolink is ham radio. #Somewhere along the line, you are talking over the air on amateur frequencies. #If you have a problem with that, then don't use it! #But don't tell other people that they are wrong, just because they don't share your personal opinion. #To each his/her own.

[G0MZS]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w0ant @ Oct. 02 2003,13:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">g0mzs@blueyonder.co.uk you can take the side salad and well I didnt crawl to the top of the food chain to graze like you!


OHHHHHHHH !!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dont you mean run to the front, I am fit enough to run,been able to do the Leeds marathon once a year http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Oh and less of the old man, you are older than I http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


Enjoy the echo link chat room, all the best DX ers use it ( NOT) !

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont you mean run to the front, I am fit enough to run,been able to do the Leeds marathon once a year
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The "Amateur Telephone" dude would still "beat" you in that marathon...

He would ride most the distance in his girlfriend's car, then she would dump him out in sight of the finish-line, so he could sorta jog the last 75 yards or so...

As he crosses the finish line, imagine his sense of pride and accomplishment! He has WON the marathon! Now he's a genuine, winning marathon runner! Right up there with the best ever, actually faster if you compare times!

"Sure I ran in that marathon - and I WON it with my new system!" he says, all puffed up and bloated with pride.

Only a luddite or a shriveled up old fogey would deny this fine young man of his well-earned glory! The sour expressions on the faces of those who actually ran the entire distance and of course could not keep up with his girlfriend's car only proves their unseemly jealousy and basic lack of character. How could they be so UNFEELING as to deny this outstanding young athelete his due?

Of *course* he is a marathon runner! He runs in the marathon, doesn't he?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL

[n1tai]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Sep. 30 2003,06http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Re: EchoLink

I was disgusted to hear about the ARRL president getting on that hokey setup and pretending to be operating as a ham. - Honoring the 9-11 victims *as a ham* by getting on a non-ham setup that would be guaranteed to go dead during any emergency precisely because it is based on non-ham stuff.

Why couldn't the guy get on W1AW and actually use radio? Is utilizing a non-ham setup that is no good for emergency communications really an appropriate way to honor the memory of those people *as a ham*?

I don't think so.

Instead, I wonder what kind of message he was sending when he turned to the non-ham stuff to communicate with other hams *as a ham*. I think the man should be ashamed of himself.

Besides, there is the simple, no-brainer fact that you cannot provide emergency backup for a network that you are dependant upon. - Like a special number to dial when the phones go dead, systems such as EchoLink and packet/Internet gateways are inherently useless for emergency communications and do nothing to advance our understanding and use of radio, and so are ultimately irrelevant to our purpose as hams.

It is a sad commentary on the times we live in, that the ARRL would get all excited about non-ham communications when our ability to use radio is being threatened. Now QRZ is jumping on the bandwagon too. It is my hope that none of us will have cause to regret this lack of focus and loss of a sense of mission on the ARRL's part. (And QRZ's)

Charles Brabham, #N5PVL
Director: USPN
http://www.uspacket.net[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Good, then stay disgusted...

Read the freaking article, digest it and understand it.
If it had not been for Ham's there would not be TCP and to implement a program that interfaces what Hams invented to IP you now have TCP/IP which is the heart and soul of the internet. #DUH! Whats more is that your packet endeavors actually interlace historically with TCP.

But a ham from the old school of radio ambition will tell you, you don't need a phone line, cable connection or a hardline to connect to the internet. If you can use those little vehicles going around the earth, you can use the internet. If you can use hf, you can connect via another region and still use echolink. You just have to be creative.

By the way, that is what amatuer radio is about, the experimentation and creative genius of individuals creating new and better means of rf communications. Testing and trying new technologies. YAda Yada Yada...

And most certainly providing a means in an emergency to provide communications support to your community.

If you loose power and run your batteries dry and have no way to access the internet #or packet, there is always a pedal generator and the code that you can use....

Might work off a few pounds but it works.
N1TAI@aol.com

So, What does EchoLink have to do with HAM RADIO??
It is nothing more than a Computer Chat Room for crying out LOUD!!!!
I really don't think there is a HAM LICENSE required for this activity if you are at your computer. #The license responsibility lies with the guy that puts it on the air from the receiving end.......
Makes me wonder what HAM radio is coming to HIHI......

[kf4vgx]

I injoy Echolink for what it is a way to pass Traffic when the HF bands are low. A few weeks back there were a few Hams down here on vacation that could not make contact on 40 meters .One of the Hams was complaing about useing Echolink but he finally had to admit the audio was great ! and if it were not for my repeater he could not have talked to his fellow ham back home .I put up my own Repeater here in Myrtle Beach S.C. Because of Echolinks Capabilities .I have battery back up for the Repeater and the Computers . The word Hobby needs to be used more often here Folks. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .
I even use Echostation as a controller for my Repeater .
Why? Because I injoy Expermenting and talking without having to hear Static in my EAR or someone tuning while whistling in to his mic. #I wont lie to you I have found 2 bootleggers on the system in the ( two years #)that I have ran it . But with the Sysop version you simply lock them out of the system and report the abuser to the Echolink administrator .Who are we to judge anothers Hobby?
Seems like some are on a rampage to insult anyone who uses Echolink. Go Ahead #! I'll still be here when your done and so will Echolink

[KH2D]

Makes me wonder what HAM radio is coming to....

It isn't coming. It's going. Matter of fact, it's about gone.

73, Jim KH2D

[KH2D]

DRSI quit making ham equipment altogether, while AEA was eventually sold.

Whatta mess, Charlie. Still crying yourself to sleep every nite with that 1200 baud TNC under your pillow... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

TexNet has been replaced by InterNet. Rose has wilted and died. Get used to it, Charlie. The good old days of ARRL bulletins going around in circles for months are over.......

Be positive. Ham radio is MUCH more fun this way. We can all argue almost in real time now, no more waiting to see if the message you put into the BBS actually made it anywhere.

73, Jim KH2D

[xe1dvi]

This is another big step for ham radio.
Exploration, atomatization, inovation isn't this what ham radio is all about.
Thanks to the people that make this possible.
Keep up the good work !!

Rey
XE1DVI
KG6RKS
My Webpage (http://www.qsl.net/xe1dvi)

When I was In South Carolina over the summer.. I used your repeater to talk back to Iowa over echolink thanks sir..

Hope you remember me

Joe Des Moines, Iowa
WØANT

Echolink user/ lover /sysop repeater owner..

PS
I have been using echolink and before ilink for 2 years now on my repeater and have talked to hams all over while driving down the road late at night and when i cant find anyone else on 2m's during the day... Nice to have a way to talk to hams using echolink over 2m's...

[G0MZS]

Set it up with a cam and you can call it Amateur TV http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mzs ur obnoxious http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

For a guy who cant stand echo link to talk to other hams..


u sure use the internet alot to bitch about hams that do!

[G0MZS]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (w0ant @ Oct. 03 2003,12http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif5)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">mzs ur obnoxious http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

For a guy who cant stand echo link to talk to other hams..


u sure use the internet alot to bitch about hams that do![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No I use the internet to read things about Amateur radio. I visit QRZ.com and find links to other amateurs web sites, find tec info when needed and just have a gas! Obnoxious? Maybe I hit a raw nerve your way if so I am sorry, maybe we can talk when the skip is up till then you wont find me on Echo-link-ham-radio-it -is-not ripoff. Sorry, but is my opinion and the last I looked I was in England you America both democratic and pride themselves on FREEDOM OF SPEACH! I thank you #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

P.S I do not find you obnoxious, misguided, uninformed but not obnoxious. Have a nice day yall http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n1tai @ Oct. 03 2003,05:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
If it had not been for Ham's there would not be TCP and to implement a program that interfaces what Hams invented to IP you now have TCP/IP which is the heart and soul of the internet. #DUH! Whats more is that your packet endeavors actually interlace historically with TCP.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

TCP/IP were invented in the early 80s by people like Dave Clark and Jon Postel as a set of replacement protocols for the earlier NCP protocol suite.

Amateur radio played no direct role in the invention.

The earliest interaction of radio and networking that I am aware of that had a big impact was the University of Hawaii's Aloha Net, which led indirectly to Metcalf et al coming up with the original Ethernet at Xerox.

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5pvl @ Oct. 02 2003,21:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
One theme that runs through all of this author's ham radio software is that manufacturers and retailers of amateur radio equipment take a big hit as a result of its' utilization.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It is fortunate that the reality of Echolink does not match your prejudgement of it. If anything, the renewed interest that Echolink inspires in people leads to more amateur equipment sales.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
No ham radio equipment required, just cram for the exam and run my software. You'll be DX'ing in minutes. - Who needs to learn anything about stinking RADIO? Why even own one?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I've talked to people all over the world with Echolink, and never once did any of them confuse our conversation with DXing. We did talk about the things that hams talk about, antennas, propagation, and what not, but we didn't make that mistake, and we didn't think we could use Echolink for contesting, either.

Most amateurs come to find Echolink after they've bought a bunch of ham gear and are trying to figure out what to do with it. Echolink gives them one more reason not to just let that gear gather dust.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Something to think about: Why do European hams have regulatory protection against this kind of corruption while we do not?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Because the PTTs are jealous of their regulatory authority?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
These are companies that took a major hit when the U.S. packet net was decimated by the inroduction of packet/internet gateways and hams stopped buying TNC's. DRSI quit making ham equipment altogether, while AEA was eventually sold.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I don't suppose the outrageous price of TNCs compared to other network interfaces, or the advent of soundcard interfaces had anything to do with this; or competition among suppliers...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
...Or maybe you would rather be indulging in nostalgia in a few years, talking about the days when there were several major brands of ham radio equipment, with dozens and dozens of models to choose from.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If amateur radio is in such a fragile state that Echolink would drive Icom, Kenwood, and Yaesu out of the business, then perhaps it is time to give the spectrum away.

I suggest, instead, a different scenario. Perhaps, packet radio in the US has moved on, beyond the limits of amateur-only, and, in the long tradition of amateur radio, is experimenting at the frontier.

Perhaps Echolink represents, as APRS does, amateur radio's ability to incorporate and enfold the best of non-amateur communication technology. #Perhaps the sky isn't falling.

73

Marty

[WA9SVD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N7MK @ Sep. 30 2003,08:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like Echolink or not, I think you guys are completely missing it.

They are not saying that ARRL Logbook of the World is accepting Echolink contacts for awards, etc.

They are saying that the di