Power Line Noise and the TH-F6a

[K2WH]

I currently reside at a RF quiet residential location in North West New Jersey. #Within the last 2 weeks however, an overwhelming AC buzz had invaded my HF receivers. #The signal, loudest on 21mhz, seemed to be everywhere, on every band except 160m (strange). #I also noticed, the noise appeared shortly after rain started and disappeared within a day or two after the rain stopped and most everything was thoroughly dry. #This was indeed a classic case of power line interference related to weather conditions.

I had a similar problem years ago (from a different QTH), and I tracked it down to a power pole using my Icom 2800h rig in the car tuned to the aircraft frequencies in the AM mode. #So, I tried this method again but the noise was simply too strong at these frequencies and the IC-2800h only has AM mode in it’s aircraft band and no higher frequencies.

Enter the Kenwood TH-F6a HT, a tri-bander HT all mode including USB, LSB, CW, FM, WFM and AM, all the way to microwave. #I decided to take this HT tuned to 21mhz, AM Mode around the neighborhood for a little walk. #I located 5 likely suspects (poles) about 2/10 mile from my house that had very strong interference radiating from them. #I held the rubber duck next to the wooden pole to ascertain the relative strength of the signal. #To narrow this down further, I tuned the receiver to 150mhz AM mode.

This tactic eliminated 2 of the 5 poles as the buzz disappeared on those 2 poles. #Three of the poles were still radiating a good strong signal however at 150mhz. #I tuned the receiver up to 200mhz. #All the noise disappeared at the pole I was standing next to. #I ramped the frequency down to 165mhz. #The noise reappeared just slightly at this frequency. #I then walked to the next pole, and the noise was louder. #I tuned the frequency up to 180mhz AM mode. #The noise was just audible. #I continued my walk with the HT to the next pole with great anticipation and much satisfaction. #I was doing real science here.

At the next pole, the same signal strength at the same frequency was indicated. #Moving on to the next pole really brought the noise up. #I tuned the receiver up to 200mhz AM mode. #The noise was just audible. #As I moved closer to this pole, the noise got very loud. #I tuned the frequency up to 250mhz AM mode. #The noise disappeared. #I then backed the frequency down to 225mhz AM mode and the noise was just audible. #Moving to the last pole, no noise was indicated. #The other suspects also indicated no noise at 225mhz. #Going back to the pole that seemed to be radiating the strongest signal and looking up at the overhead 5kv wiring, revealed a small tree branch (actually a twig), lying across one phase of the 3-phase system touching the metal support for one of the porcelain insulators. #Gotcha!!!

So, my next move is to call the utility with the pole number and wait for them to come and remove the branch. #I’m sure they will cooperate and act quickly as soon as I tell them a branch is lying across the wires. #This is a safety issue and could quite possibly short out entirely or, cause a fire.

So, the next time you have a similar power pole noise problem and have an HT as versatile as the Kenwood, put it to good use. #It makes a handy troubleshooting instrument as well as an excellent HT.

K2WH

"Update: The utility, once notified of the branch across the power lines showed up within 1/2 hour and removed the branch. #I now have quiet in my neighborhood again. #Thank you Rockland Electric. #A successful hunt. #Now for the celebratory beer.

[KD7EFQ]

That was one of the reasons for my buying the F6A. Along with SSB recieve on HF [With a good external ant.!!]. I love the rig. The only nit I have is the Rf power settings. there should be a 2.5 or at least 1.5 watt setting in there to conserve some battery while still hitting the more remote repeaters. Otherwise, a fantastic, reliable rig. the dual recieve is great and is much better on intermod than my VX5 was. I'm keeping mine! 73 #T.

[kc2kfw]

This was a joy to read! You outstanding efforts of detective work paid off! Hopefully, your assumption of how the power company will handle this is right on the money. It's been my experience that they tend to pass the buck - at least in my area. Otherwise, great work!

God bless and 73!

Chris KC2KFW http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KD5TL]

K2WH,

Exellent post OM !! Good Luck with the power company!!

73, KD5TL

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD7EFQ @ Sep. 25 2003,09:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That was one of the reasons for my buying the F6A. Along with SSB recieve on HF [With a good external ant.!!]. I love the rig. The only nit I have is the Rf power settings. there should be a 2.5 or at least 1.5 watt setting in there to conserve some battery while still hitting the more remote repeaters. Otherwise, a fantastic, reliable rig. the dual recieve is great and is much better on intermod than my VX5 was. I'm keeping mine! 73 #T.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I had the VX-5r and it did not compare at all in features and benefits to the Kenwood unit at all. So, I sold the VX-5r.

Thanks for the comments.

K2WH

[KD7YMR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K2WH @ Sep. 25 2003,15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I currently reside at a RF quiet residential location in North West New Jersey. #Within the last 2 weeks however, an overwhelming AC buzz had invaded my HF receivers. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hi,
#Being an electrician by trade, this is an old trick we use to find the ballast of florescent lamps that are starting to go bad. #We don't use anything as fancy as your Kenwood tri-band. . . #Just a simple little $4 AM pocket radio with a whole 5 transistors works swell! #Just turn it down as low a frequency as it will go and start walking around. #You'll find them nasty little "Buzz's" really quick! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
#In an office environment, we used one of them ten cent plug-in ear speakers, and totally amazed the office managers and workers alike as to how we could just walk up to the offending lamp just like that. #Hehehe # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif # Its great being a hero like that. #With MAGIC too!!!

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (abaslon @ Sep. 25 2003,14:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K2WH @ Sep. 25 2003,15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I currently reside at a RF quiet residential location in North West New Jersey. #Within the last 2 weeks however, an overwhelming AC buzz had invaded my HF receivers. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hi,
#Being an electrician by trade, this is an old trick we use to find the ballast of florescent lamps that are starting to go bad. #We don't use anything as fancy as your Kenwood tri-band. . . #Just a simple little $4 AM pocket radio with a whole 5 transistors works swell! #Just turn it down as low a frequency as it will go and start walking around. #You'll find them nasty little "Buzz's" really quick! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
#In an office environment, we used one of them ten cent plug-in ear speakers, and totally amazed the office managers and workers alike as to how we could just walk up to the offending lamp just like that. #Hehehe # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif # Its great being a hero like that. #With MAGIC too!!![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I agree for your situation that would work. #However, this type of AC buzz is so loud and strong, you cannot or could not narrow it down to a single location with a simple AM broadcast band receiver.

Using an old cheap AM radio (which I have done in the past), will get you no where in this type of hunt as all poles, ground leads and other objects in the immediate area will be radiating the same signal at about the same amplitude. #A radio that lets one go to a higher frequency to damp down the received level (like the Kenwood) is what is required in these cases.

K2WH

[WB3KJX]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Enter the Kenwood TH-F6a HT, a tri-bander HT all mode including AM, all the way to microwave[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

WOW, an HT that has CW also! JUST KIDDING FOLKS!

Nice job hunting it down, and glad you got good cooperation from the power company.

[N1WO]

Great stuff! I remember my first crystal radio well. thanx. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[n7wsb]

This gives me plenty of ideas to track down that transcient AC hum like noise that happens every few minutes on 40 and 41 meters (seems to disapear at the bottom of 41) in my neighborhood. I suspect it will be harder to track down because it comes and goes...

[AL7PX]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Had the same kind of problem in Florida. That's why I like underground powerlines. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kb9vxq]

Great posting!!! #I have a problem with line noise in my neighborhood also and am having trouble locating it. Problem is I don't have a radio like this to do it with. Just a fm ht which don't really work too well for this. Been thinking about buying a new THF6A. Just another reason to buy one. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N0RTU]

Greetings all!
I'd like to add a little information about this post that may help others in the future.
I've been involved in line work since 1989 and finding noise generated by something on distribution lines is part of almost every lineman's job now and then. #In this case, a tree limb laying on the line was the culprit but other things can create noise too. #Somewhat more common is lightning arresters that are starting to break down, insulators that are starting to not insulate so well anymore, and of course bad connections that could be anywhere along a line. #Calling you power company should always be your first response. #They handle calls like this on a daily basis and usually have several people that can track down such a problem effectively. #Doing your own investigating is fine, and in some cases may be a real help to your power company contact. #However,remember that in most of the U.S. today that distribution power lines(the ones in your back yard) are most commonly charged at the 7,200 to 15,000 volt level! #Also, for short periods of time during a fault or "short" many hundreds or thousands of amperes are available to flow to the point of the fault. #This is the long way around to say, NEVER GET WITHIN 10 FEET OF ANY POWER LINE! #Certain death awaits. #Unfortunately, I've been nearby or present during two electrocutions where linemen I knew have been lost. #It is a most unpleasant experience. #If you are "hunting" for a source of power line noise, please do so from a distance. #Never extend an antenna of any kind toward a utility pole. #Please remember that although the high voltage source that feeds your backyard transformer is usually(not always) located towards the top of the pole, the 120-240 volt service lines are much lower! #Many, many more people have been injured or killed at these voltage levels than have ever been claimed by higher voltages. #Although all power providers go to tremendous lengths to insure public safety and lineworkers safety, no installation is "foolproof". #If you are enough of a fool, the proof will likely be your smoldering body found at the base of a pole! #There are several ways to find power line generated noise. #But the FIRST step should ALWAYS be to contact your power provider. #It takes years of schooling and on the job training to work with this kind of power safely. #Let those with the experience lead the way. #More often than not, noise generated by a power line or something connected to the line is a warning that trouble on that line is not too far into the future. #Your power company always wants to know that. #It is much less expensive to come change a lightning arrester now, than to wait until the arrester fails completely and burns down a line or damages a transformer or other equipment that is nearby.
When it comes to communication, we hams are often at the front of the line.
But when it comes to high voltage power, let the lineworker step to the front. #He knows what to do, and how to do it safely!
Linemen say, "Look up and Live"

Best wishes and Safe hamming to all
Mike
N0RTU # # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K9DRX]

Well done!

I wish they were all that easy.

[n8zux]

Has anyone opened up the EXTRA class manual as to FOX or RDF hunting ?? FM cannot and will not be a source to track down noises of power interference, of course that was locating the source on your home side of the Meter, I do know of someone by the way a Farmer and a CB dealer used a " Gold Line " RDF to locate interference on his property of several acres and the Ultility co. installed capicitors near the offending transformers, I believe that he was smart enough to stay away if it was a bad line down, he worked full time at a College now a University that teaches electronics where I went, same one that a engineer graduated and created the Air Bag ( Ferris State University ) some of us old boys in the farming area know enough that downed lines are just as wicked as a rattlesnake and let alone some people cannot tell the difference between a cow and a deer http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif same school I picked up my Third Class Radiotelephone op. license yup we farm boys know the difference.

[KB8EFD]

I don't know that it takes many years of schooling to learn how to handle high voltages & ungodly numbers of amperes - but every other bit of NORTU's advice is *very* good.
That little HT which was used to trace the noise sounds like a dandy test device. If you put a direction finding antenna on it, I'll bet that nothing could beat it, and such an antenna would have made the find a little easier.
I will pass along a low-life lazy man's cheap & dirty trick. Most 'world band' radios have ferrite 'loopstick' antennas, at least on the lower part of the HF bands - and those rascals are very directional. I have a JVC brand boombox type radio - and it's lower HF band has such an antenna. I think it, and radios like it are some of the handiest broad-band HF noise-finders, because of their built-in directional antennas. Not many have S-meters, but they're still real handy to use.
I'm thinking about putting a scope with crosshairs on mine. After the responses I've gotten from our power company, or should I say - lack of responses - maybe I should mount a rifle onto the radio - just blow the offending insulator or connection into it's eternal resting place. Naw - that would make it too easy for the power company to find. Calling in pole numbers to my power company never seemed to do any good. They waited for more spectacular fireworks.
As for the response of your power company - that was wonderful. Be thankful that AEP is not your power provider. From the middle 80s until the early 90s, I called in about a dozen of their problems, usually gave them pole numbers, and not once did they respond, to the best of my knowledge. It was burn, baby, burn.
One time, a transformer blew - a week or so after I called in the pole number. After that, I gave up on doing their location work for them. I find it interesting that Riley is trying to get their attention. I wish him luck. I'd almost bet that they'd throw a letter from the FCC into the trash. They'd probably think it was advertising. Only those idiots, could trace a noise to a receiving antenna.
Be thankful for success. Most failure on the part of 'experts' - is chosen. AB8PX - formerly KB8EFD - Shalom and 73 - Jim
Incidentally, I've never met a stupid AEP lineman. All of AEP'S ignorance used to be concentrated at the top. If I had time, I'd tell you about one of their power plants - which had a 150 ton mass of melted-together ash in the bottom of it - after they refused to listen to my advice regarding oxygen analyzers, air valve linearizers and/or air flowmeters to achieve a stoichometric burn - which happened at about the same time they wouldn't respond to my QRN information. Those of us who do know what we're doing occasionally do get irritated by those who only think they know - but most of the time, we get to laugh the hardest.

[PY1LL]

Congratulations! It was really a nice job!
I had a rather similar problem here in Rio de Janeiro. With a small transistor AM portable radio, I could find the 2 possible directions of the bad pole (Walking in one direction the signal faded, then the correct direction was the other one). A set of 3 poles was found around 1 Km from my QTH. But, as there was nothing indicating the problem (as a tree branch, for example) with any of the 3 poles, I returned to their place at nigh-time with binoculars and could see little sparks jumping through the insulator surface of one of those poles (it was a 13.6 KV line). I called the electricity company theat solved the problem, but the beer took longer than yours: around 2 days. It was a cracked insulator.
Another common situation in the beach regions of Rio, as all sea places, is that the high voltage lines insulators get a marine salt deposit after some time and, so, must be washed periodically. On 160, under this condition, it's common to be possible to make contacts only immediately after some rain.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K2WH @ Sep. 25 2003,15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just my 2 cents...

#The TH-F6a has a ferrite antenna inside its case and i bet it would prove to be much more efficient than the rubber duck antenna in hunting down power line noise, because you will be able to better assert the noise direction by rotating the radio towards the suspected noise source. You can activate it in the menu by pressing the silver key and scrolling until you find the internal antenna item.

Rafael
PY4RGS

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rafaelsa @ Sep. 28 2003,08:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K2WH @ Sep. 25 2003,15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
#Just my 2 cents...

#The TH-F6a has a ferrite antenna inside its case and i bet it would prove to be much more efficient than the rubber duck antenna in hunting down power line noise, because you will be able to better assert the noise direction by rotating the radio towards the suspected noise source. You can activate it in the menu by pressing the silver key and scrolling until you find the internal antenna item.

Rafael
PY4RGS[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This is true. However, the use of the ferrite antenna is only allowed up to 10mhz through software setup. Beyond that you are using the rubber duck like it or not.

Therefore, since I was using VHF frequencies to track down the noise source, the fact that the HT has a ferrite antenna was meaningless in this instance.

Thanks for your input.

K2WH

[KC7YRN]

Good detective work! Another good example of ham skills benefitting the community.

Anybody have a good guess why 160 wasn't affected?

For people whose power companies don't respond to imminent equipment failures, see if your state utitilities commission is active and concerned. Sometimes they are. Especially now that reliability is in the news, they may feel politically compelled to order the power company to fix things.

[kb2hpw]

Great post! I have used my TH-F6a also in finding noise interference in sensitive, data aquisition equipment. In fact just 2 weeks ago I used it in solving some intermittent shutdown problems. Tracked it to a noisy contactor and discovery of chassis components that weren't bonded/grounded correctly. I've used the AM radio trick too with good results, but sometimes the noise is just too broadbanded. Great little radio I tell ya. Just hope it will be reliable in the years to come.

73 de Dave

[kc5vkg]

As many other have stated, good job on the detective work. However I have one "sad" note. You may want to start getting used to that type of "interference", not just on one band, but all the HF if the powerline companies have their way with BPL.

Again great job and best of luck...

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc5vkg @ Oct. 01 2003,08:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As many other have stated, good job on the detective work. #However I have one "sad" note. #You may want to start getting used to that type of "interference", not just on one band, but all the HF if the powerline companies have their way with BPL.

#Again great job and best of luck...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I am on top of BPL and it will be defeated.

K2WH

[N9HMB]

N9HMB
Sounds somewhat like the problem I had. The noise seemed to be on every freq.above 25 meg. Even on my weather alert radio. Not all the time but when things were damp. I used the weather radio to find out where it was comming from and found it to be all through the house. Then went out under my over head service wires and to the power pole. It was really bad there. Went in the house and colled Alliant( POWER CO.) and told them my problem makeing it a point to mention it was rendering my weather alert radio useless. The gal said I would be recieving a form to fill out. In two days I recieved a sase and the form asking what freq.were affected what time of day and weather conditions. I mailed the form thinking I wouldn't hear from them again. SURPRISE ! Three days later an Alliant line truck pulled up and the driver was carring a beat up am-fm radio. He walked out to the pole and said they were not the problem. I asked if he didn't have a more sensitive insturment for things like this. He said he had a "sniffer"but this radio usually does the job. I said "please go get the sniffer"!! He went to the truck and puller out an insturment about the size of a 4x4 ten inches long. It had an little whip ant. on the top and what looked like a shotgun mike sticking out the side. He attached it to a telescoping pole and shoved it up to the power xformer. When it got close to one of the the hi voltage insulators it went nuts. He made the comment that if he were to climb the pole he very likely could have heared it and that the insulator was bad. In three days it was fixed. He also said that the company does not like to have this happening because it is an unmetered power loss.Any way all is quiet again.
N9HMB

[KO6LG]

In 25 years of hamming, the 'F6 is the only radio I will absolutely keep forever...

PS - DEATH TO BPL!

73's WA7JV