Slashdotters bash Hams!

[KG4JYD]

In the debate between techs for BPL and Hams against BPL several members of the SlashDot.org Community (http://www.SlashDot.org) have taken to bashing Amateur Radio.

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Pointing to this Article by the ARRL on BPL (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2003/08/08/2/?nc=1) Slashdotters comment on Hams wanting to "sacrifice modern...communication in favor of bouncing radio waves off the atmosphere" (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?cid=6651327&sid=74100&tid=193)

Interestingly enough a lot of Hams responded with positive feed back including a post praising Hams for their activities during the blackout last month. (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/08/19/2223242&mode=thread&tid=137&tid=193)

In my personal opinion I think a lot of educating should be conducted as to why BPL is a bad idea to the computer industry; many of whom do not understand the signifigant consequences of RF interference of that magnitude.

Since legally the power companies are not authorized to cause interference in our bands they will probably attempt to get a higher class license than amateur radio holds from the FCC. This would force us to accept their harmful interference.

The scope of this unfortunately is much larger than amateur radio. Running this type of emission on an unshielded grid designed for 60Hz will cause major problems for everyone involved. Particular parties that should be concerned are aviation, (http://members.optushome.com.au/extremescan/general/hf_frequencies.html) #NOAA (http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/radiofax.htm), , the feds themselves (http://www.grove-ent.com/mttopHF.html) and the list goes on. We cannot allow the HF bands to be crippled in this manner!

[n7wsb]

Actually if you read the article most of the threads on there are actually pro-ham. Many points were made on why those arguements above are not valid.

I applaud Slashdot for posting stories on amateur radio because it makes our issues known to a more mainstream audience.

[n8zux]

Hey I got a better idea ! why don't we just find a way to cut the unused power lines and just make a antenna with a Tuner Box I don't know how many wavelengths we could get away with for a Super Long Wire #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

just tell the FCC we want to take up all the unused power lines for long wire antennas !

by the way this IS a Joke ! # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Of course your post was a JOKE! Why would anyone take a person in a gay bat suit seriously?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Leave my Batman alone!

I just checked out SlashDot web page, and they are correct in saying that is where the Nerds hang out... I couldn't figure much of what they were talking about out http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I admit that I'm some what of a nerd myself although I have never owned a pocket protector ( Nerd Pack ) I have a mortgage, job, 2 automobiles, I hunt, and fish along with my ham hobby. I get a feeling most of these guys live in their mothers basement, and have hygene problems... No job, no girlfriends, and most of all... NO LIFE as we know it. What a pity.

[kd5wih]

Although there are several posts on Slashdot that are anti-ham, I was surprised to see that most are supportive of amateur radio.
There is a new topic on Slashdot; it's a code debate!
73
KD5WIH

[KG4JYD]

Yes there is a new post on there about eliminating the CW req (http://slashdot.org/articles/03/09/06/1348258.shtml?tid=103&tid=137&tid=193&tid=99) for Hams. Although in the original post I had mentioned above most people sided with Ham Radio, in this newer post a lot of people are actually not taking sides with keeping code around.

Very very interesting discussion over there.

What do yall think about the BPL issue?

[va3fcm]

We coulld always go over there and start a code/no-code flame. That would do them in! HI HI

73

Charles VE3HBB

[n5ebw]

You know, being an IT professional, when it comes to BPL, I have to walk the line and be tolerant of those who dont know. Slashdot, these are a lot like the guys I grew up around.. Its taken a lot of arguing my point to convince them BPL is a bad thing. Its funny how easy it is to educate technology professionals about the "bads" of it, but just try to sway the opinion of a no code tech who doesnt give a damn and has little to lose, I dare you! Not an easy feat. Tread lightly guys, dont bash the slashdot nerds too much, some of them turned out to be hams, including me, and although the ones that arent dont know our viewpoint, be the better person and not try to reinforce their viewpoint that we are a bunch of tired smelly old men who just sit in front of our radios getting high off of vacuum tube smoke. (opposite of myself by the way).

Many of the folks on SLASHDOT are technically oriented types who are highly 'into' the digital communications and do QUITE a bit of work and development in that world (KA9Q is one, that comes to mind, I know of)

I suspect a bunch of them are hams.. but they tend to be quite aligned with the digital world rather than that voice/CW world we hams tend to be operating within.

In other words.. there are MORE digital folks there -who tend to fall on the side of the 'new and exciting and high speed functional world' of digital things.

Many of them view our modes/speeds as old fashioned, slow, out of date, and a bit anachronistic.

They recognize that they are useful and should be kept around, but many of them are more focused on the need to get more space and places to do the digital thing.

Since manyof them are NOT into the RF world - from the perspective of having to extract analog information from amidst other signals - they tend to look at things from the perspective of dealing with digital and digital.

They can and do send mutiple digital signals over wireline (and RF) paths and use all sorts of nice error correcting/different frequencies for tone pairs/shifts for pairs to get around QRM/QRN problems. So their perspective is 'what's the big deal'?" If they get QRM, they'll just develop some kind of methodology to deal with the QRM.

As one said.. EDUCATING them helps dispell the fog that they have due to lack of knowledge. BUT there are many on slashdot who will never be persuaded and will continue to not care.

THANKFULLY..there are MANY slashdotters who (when they learn) OR already know) are cognizant of what the problem is and are willing to take a good honest analytical look at it. Once theysee/hear the real threat.. they tend to change their thinking.

K3FT

[WD8OQX]

One thing I have to wonder, how will this "noise generater" (bpl) affect those with life support (i.e pace makers)?

[kb0olf]

Alright, here's the deal. Every now and then things like this come up. things being information of our bands being threatened. I don't know much about BPL, but from what I do know, it is a BAD idea. I can go on and on about why and how I feel about it. I can also go on and on about how a lot of you say we need to educate the public and make them aware. Now, I ask you, how many of you, in the past 12 months, even 24 months, have been proactive in educating the public? I know I shouldn't be on the soap box because I haven't done much myself. I feel guilty about it. The most I have done was send an email to a local news station trying to get them to cover Field Day.

I for one am going to do what I can to educate myself better on BPL, print up some brocures about Ham Radio and make up a letter about BPL. My next step will be to head out to the local grocery store on a saturday morning and start passing them out. I may even go so far as to make up a petition to send to the FCC and my federal representatives.

It's time we take up arms and defend Ham Radio, a "holy war" of sorts. Our weapon of choice? Flyers, Brochures, seminars, coverage on public access television. I belive most, if not all, cable networks have a channel for local government access. Granted, not many people watch, but all it takes is one person with enough power to make a difference.

I'm done preaching, have a nice day.

73 DE KB0OLF
Steve

[n5ebw]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Timl @ Sep. 07 2003,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing I have to wonder, how will this "noise generater" (bpl) affect those with life support (i.e pace makers)?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Pacemakers work near the microwave bands I believe. BPL will affect everything up to 80MHz. Pacemakers are safe in this ase, but a LOT of other stuff is not.

[N0NB]

Slashdot Community? Slashdot Crowd is more apropos.

I don't check /. as often as I used to so I missed these recent threads. Kudos to the hams that did a good job presenting our point of view.

73, de Nate >>

Broadband over Power Line is just a transitional technology anyway. The real future is Broadband over Sewer! (http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20030908.html) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[WD8OQX]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg4vpv @ Sep. 08 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Timl @ Sep. 07 2003,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing I have to wonder, how will this "noise generater" (bpl) affect those with life support (i.e pace makers)?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Pacemakers work near the microwave bands I believe. #BPL will affect everything up to 80MHz. #Pacemakers are safe in this ase, but a LOT of other stuff is not.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
"but a LOT of other stuff is not."

Just the point I was getting at!!!

(pacemaker was a poor example but the only one I could think of that would be used out of a hospital)

[k4iii]

Jealousy...

Like the FCC is going to pay your $600/yr broadband bill and give everyone FREE Internet access through BPL!

These nerds have no sense of the REAL world and POLITICS! It's all in the MULA $$$ ...

[k4iii]

Here's one... Just think if it were this way...

Make everyones Internet service in the US only legally capable of using 20kb/sec and any and all excess bandwidth must be given away to SETI freely to improve telecommunications and technologies towards identifying Extra-Terrestial Intelligence...

U just got to put things into perspective...

(before bashing) or else U look like an "A"!

p.s. you can do this, check out the SETI site.

[kd5scf]

I am a IT integrator in the DFW metroplex area, and enjoy connecting people with broadband and seeing the productivity it provides. I am happy to see many different forms of broadband being brought to market. But, BPL, as nice as the product sounds to the layman, will have a negative impact on the amateur radio community and other communities, business and emergency, that could be catastrophic. Education of those that don't know how important our service is, is imperative. #Examples are:

1. Columbia recovery,,government agencies could not talk together without amateurs being the mediating factor.
2. 9/11---obvious
3. Severe weather warnings-(confirmation, fewer false alarms)
4. Wildfire communications

The day is coming,,,,,sooner or later,,,where the internet will be dragged to a standstill. The current worms and scripts being sent across the net are just a feeler,,,,testing the waters,,,,Call me an alarmist, but, I'll err on the side of caution. I think the day where we all have problems filling our gas tanks, withdrawing from ATM's, emails, news updates, and many other things that are our infrastructure, will be null and void for at least a week or two. At that time, when all our Voice Over IP is down, commercial wireless networks, and the like aren't reliable, amateur radio will shine above the rest. It is one of the few technologies left that doesn't RELY on the internet. Actually, one
EBomb (http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/9/e-bomb/print.phtml) could render multiple states using BPL completely mute as far as the grid goes. It's gonna be an interesting journey.

[KG4JYD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n5cpu @ Sep. 08 2003,22:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
The day is coming,,,,,sooner or later,,,where the internet will be dragged to a standstill. The current worms and scripts being sent across the net are just a feeler,,,,testing the waters,,,,Call me an alarmist, but, I'll err on the side of caution. I think the day where we all have problems filling our gas tanks, withdrawing from ATM's, emails, news updates, and many other things that are our infrastructure, will be null and void for at least a week or two. At that time, when all our Voice Over IP is down, commercial wireless networks, and the like aren't reliable, amateur radio will shine above the rest. It is one of the few technologies left that doesn't RELY on the internet. Actually, one
EBomb (http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/9/e-bomb/print.phtml) could render multiple states using BPL completely mute as far as the grid goes. It's gonna be an interesting journey.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What about ILRP which uses Voice-Over IP? I often wonder about tying repeaters together via the Internet. Obviously this is great when things work, but during emergency situations and the Net goes down (or whatever) these repeaters are no longer linked. For HF this isn't a problem but what about relying on ILRP too much?

The repeaters up here in Nashville http://www.w4rpt.com/ are linked together using this method.

Here is a link to the http://www.irlp.net/.

Any thoughts? Comments?

[kd5scf]

Well, for starters, IRLP is Linux based, which lends itself to more stability, most of the worms and scripts are targeted toward MS servers. Anyway, my previous post started to stray off topic, so to reiterate, I am AGAINST BPL, unless there are suppression methods {unknown to me} used to guard against interference to existing frequencies used by licensed operators, commercial & amateur.

[WA1IWH]

This may have been mention in an earlier thread, I haven't read them all. However, given the recent problems in Ohio, Canada and the East Coast, I gotta beleive the power companies are more interested in keeping their basic product, electricity, flowing. They don't want to make the 6 o'clock news again. I think BPL just dropped in priority. I'm against BPL and have submitted my response to the FCC, I urge everyone to do the same.

[kk5gd]

I think most people might be missing the big picture. This BPL doesn't just interfere with amatuer radio, it'll also interfere world band radio, military communications, possibly broadcast TV, maritime communication, ect...
It's also has a worldwide impact on communications. Many of us have worked QRP from half way around the world. Think of the impact of an entire country of BPL on world communications.

KK5GD http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KB9YYX]

I question if BPL will work on a large scale, and if it will be economically profitable. Where has it been tested with say, 100,000 homes?

I did give a small financial amount to the ARRL to fight BPL.

I am not taking further action at this time. If BPL is implemented, I suspect it may not last long.

If BPL is successfully implemented, and the HF bands become unusable, maybe we need to innovate again!

[ke4zhn]

Who cares what a bunch of computer geek slashdotters think? If they dont like hams then they can plug themselves into the ac outlet and experience BPL firsthand! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KD7UKT]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kk5gd @ Sep. 10 2003,04:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think most people might be missing the big picture. #This BPL doesn't just interfere with amatuer radio, it'll also interfere world band radio, military communications, possibly broadcast TV, maritime communication, ect...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Forget TV and world band... it will cause massive interference to things like police, fire, and ambulance dispatching. Grandma having a heart attack? Sorry, can't get the message to the fire truck because of all the QRM.

[KD5WSH]

what is/are SLASHDOTTERS?

[kg6ath]

Whats truly sad is that BPL probably COULD be done
without trashing the spectrum.

While BPL uses fundamentals of 2-80 mhz, nobody is
talking about the harmonics caused by the square waves
in BPL.

2nd harmonic of 73 is 146 right in the middle of 2 meters!
(keep that in mind you techs who dont care about HF!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I gather that the power companies have been pushing
data down the power lines for years without interference
to other services. They send telemetry to remote
operated spillgates on dams, generator control systems
etc.


It seems that the power companies themselves would
not be operating BPL, they would be leasing the lines to
outside firms who do not have the expertise to do it
properly (they wanna do it on the cheap). Its these
unqualified knuckleheads who are the ones REALLY
trashing the airwaves.

I say hold the FCC to the fire and keep Part15 where it is.
Dont give BPL any exceptions, and FORCE the BPL
folks to find a way that does it PROPERLY WITHOUT
causing interference to other services. Im told that it
can be done if we force them to spend the extra cash to
do it.

If that fails, theres always chainsaws.
What Im paying for power, diesel is probably cheaper
anyway (Thank you very much ENRON)

[kg6ath]

Quote (n5cpu @ Sep. 08 2003,22:57)

The day is coming,,,,,sooner or later,,,where the internet will be dragged to a standstill. The current worms and scripts being sent across the net are just a feeler,,,,testing the waters,,,,Call me an alarmist, but, I'll err on the side of caution. I think the day where we all have problems filling our gas tanks, withdrawing from ATM's, emails, news updates, and many other things that are our infrastructure, will be null and void for at least a week or two. At that time, when all our Voice Over IP is down, commercial wireless networks, and the like aren't reliable, amateur radio will shine above the rest. It is one of the few technologies left that doesn't RELY on the internet. Actually, one
EBomb could render multiple states using BPL completely mute as far as the grid goes. It's gonna be an interesting journey.

What about ILRP which uses Voice-Over IP? I often wonder about tying repeaters together via the Internet. Obviously this is great when things work, but during emergency situations and the Net goes down #(or whatever) these repeaters are no longer linked. For HF this isn't a problem but what about relying on ILRP too much?

END QUOTE

Keep in mind that i work in oinfo technilogy and I love
computers.... to a point.

I think you hit on a major flaw in IRLP.

IPLP is a great way for techs to do DX.

In a major incident (or worse yet a major cyber attack)
internet linking of repeaters is a bad idea.

Crashing planes has been done. The govt is watching.
Far more difficult to do it again.

If someone REALLY wanted to do something that would
touch EVERYONE in the country, all you would need to
do is lock up the nations communications for a day.
You would need to jam up the internet and the long
distance phones. There are people who know how to do
this and they are in places of the world that dont like
the US very much.

While its harder to crash a plane in the US, our communications infrastructure is so riddled with holes,
they could knock us out, watch us patch the system and
then hit us again with a different technique over and
over again.

Internet linking for emergency repeaters is just too
unreliable.

I also dont believe in software radio systems in an
emergency. #Its just too hard to rebuild a laptop with a
butane soldering iron. The old klunker rigs without all
the computerized jim-cracks can be repaired on the fly
during an emergency. Not so the new computerized
rigs. During an emergency you just arent able to send it
out for service.

Yes I installed packet in the comunity com centre.
I wont rely on it. Ill be shocked if it works.
Its not secure but I dont want it going out on voice
which truck has the morphine on it.

I expect computers to be totally useless except as door
stops.
My emergency plan makes NO use of computers beyond
the packet station.

I fully expect old klunker radios (crystals and early synth)
to be what gets us through the mess. Probably the CW
guys will really bail us outta trouble. CW will outperform
PSK31 probably.

Im not joking, I also added several sets of boy scout
semaphore flags to the stash.

All emergency repeaters I deal with have redundant rf
links on them and some have a landline link as well.

People dont get it. The internet will be one of the 1st
things to go down. Next the cells will crash. Finally
the telco will start restrict access to prevent it from
locking up.

You will also find that the cell cos are not maintaining
their backups. I wont tell which ones, but I know several whos diesels are dead and their batteries are
very old.

Its fun chatting the CNN guys about what happened
on 9-11. They were snatching machines off peoples
desks to add them into the web farm. That is something
people dont realize.

One last thing:
Landline telcos have service priorities.
If you cant get dialtone at work or home, try a pay
phone. Since they are used to report emergencies,
payphones have priority over homes & offices.
Put several rolls of quarters in your emergency kits!

[KG6DHV]

Since I've been on the internet (1995) it has crashed in our location three times (Mammoth Lakes, CA in the eastern Sierra). #All of them were caused by a backhoe slicing a fiberoptics line in the San Francisco and southern California metro areas. #Is that dependable? #As for a comment one of the slashdotters made about using power lines to transmit CW following an EMP attack, it seems more likely for power lines to crash to the ground. #

Back in the early 80's someone or a group with an axe to grind with the L.A. Department of Water and Power, SCE, and the municipal power systems of Pasadena, Glendale, and Burbank who own the "Pacific Intertie" a DC power line which connects Grand Coulee or the Dulles with southern California, knocked down a few towers in the Calif/Nevada border area. #A more planned attack could have brought several down at once and cutting the conductors would not have been out of the question.

It seems that anything that uses wires or pipelines is vunerable even when the chips are up. #When something really goes bad, HF is it. #The reading I get from many Federal agencies (I worked for the U.S. Forest Service and did lots of firefighting) and state agencies when I was involved in emergency planning, was an upsurge in interest of HF that started in the late 90's. #They realize that satellite phones are a large improvement for communications, especially for data, if most of the infastructure goes down, but the reliability of HF under all conditions is incomperable. #

I'm a tech, but just bought a HF/6M/2M/70cm base station. #Since high school I have wanted to operate HF voice and CW. #My career and other stuff prevented it. #They can drop the Morse code requirement and I will still be learning it. #I think it makes you a more valuable, dependable, and versatile resource during an emergency.

I've been interested in ham radio and SWL since high school, but only got licensed as a tech 3 years ago. #I've done a lot of SWL, investing over $500 on a Yeasu FRG-7700 in 1979. #I can't imagine the world being able to function in emergencies without HF. #I cannot understand anyone not wanting to protect it. #The reasons are to numerous to list. #

I agree with many of the posters who predict that the whole digital communications system (ATM,s, Internet, etc.) is going to have a major crash for a period of time due to some type of event. #I don't think we even know all the types of events that the system is vunerable to. #Sometimes an seemingly insignificant event knocks over lots of dominos.

Even though there are techs who don't intend to get the general and work HF, I personally don't know any who don't value the use of HF. Those that I know and speak with may not have the time to upgrade, are just not bitten by the bug, or what have you, but all of them admire HF and code use.

I visited their site, but I still don't know who/what the "slashdotters" are. Maybe someone can shed some light. I just don't have the time or inclination to explore their site.

73
KG6DHV

[KG4JYD]

Slashdotters or /.'s are people who visit and post to that site, www.slashdot.org

Slashdot.org is actually a news website for the tech and science communities very similar to QRZ.com If yall ever get a chance, check it out sometime because you will find a lot of interesting news and tech updates. Also, the majority of /.'ers use the Linux Operating system.

[KG4PLK]

Amateur Radio is very important during Emergency Communications and I am a young ham,and am very active in our Ares/Skywarn nets. BPL Would Cause interference to all of hf. I am just a Tech,But if local repeaters were knocked out, VHF/UHF would be Crippled on that area effected. Hf is still useful though. Hf would not be useful if this BPL thing passes! The Time for Action is [/U]NOW!

[k7ov]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg6ath @ Sep. 12 2003,13:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whats truly sad is that BPL probably COULD be done
without trashing the spectrum. #

While BPL uses fundamentals of 2-80 mhz, nobody is
talking about the harmonics caused by the square waves
in BPL.

2nd harmonic of 73 is 146 right in the middle of 2 meters!
(keep that in mind you techs who dont care about HF!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I gather that the power companies have been pushing
data down the power lines for years without interference
to other services. #They send telemetry to remote
operated spillgates on dams, generator control systems
etc.


It seems that the power companies themselves would
not be operating BPL, they would be leasing the lines to
outside firms who do not have the expertise to do it
properly (they wanna do it on the cheap). #Its these
unqualified knuckleheads who are the ones REALLY
trashing the airwaves.

I say hold the FCC to the fire and keep Part15 where it is.
Dont give BPL any exceptions, and FORCE the BPL
folks to find a way that does it PROPERLY WITHOUT
causing interference to other services. #Im told that it
can be done if we force them to spend the extra cash to
do it.

If that fails, theres always chainsaws.
What Im paying for power, diesel is probably cheaper
anyway (Thank you very much ENRON)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yes, Power companies have been pushing signals down power lines for years. But, not broadband. They push very narrow signals on frequencies that tend not to bother anyone, and afford them a little security. BPL tends to be abuse of this process.

73, Mike K7OV