View Full Version : are you power waster?
n3gad
08-16-2003, 02:58 AM
Hello, i am taking this opertunity to ask all you guys out there living on grid power, how did you manage during the blackout? #did you have running water, refridgeration? did your radios work? #well, after living off grid for 6+ yrs now , i can really apreciate how much power the home consumes and when you have to live within the limits of the system i have, about 2 KW per day, more in the fall when the wind blows all night, you get to be pretty frugal too. #with the record heat and massive amounts of wasted electricity in general maybe its time you really sat down and figured where all that power is going. #most people dont realise that the refridgerator is the biggest user of them all and there are models out there that use a fraction of the power the older models do. #also, consider all the phantom loads in your home. #anything with an instant on circuit, TV, vcr, etc. will pull 3-10 watts 24 hrs a day. #the worst example that i have here is the DSS satellite dish receiver. #it is actually on all the time no matter what the little green light is telling you. #it is downloading the latest tv guide and receiving messages that you probably dont read. it pulls about 25 watts as long as its connected to the wall outlet.. no way on solar and really wasteful on the grid. #there are millions of those things out there, just think of just that wasted power alone! #the solution, power strips or simply installing a switch to cut the AC from the wall. #i have been using mine this way for 5 yrs and no problems. #of course wrapping the water heater and adding attic vents and extra insulation are big steps also. #next time you shingle the roof, go with a light color. #here in new mexico i am suprised at all the black shingled roofs dotting the landscape.. just plain dumb. #if you are in the sunbelt, consider tinting the windows that are exposed to midday heat. #i got a roll of 'Lumar', it lets almost all the light in but the heat is reflected out. next time you are changing a light bulb, go with a compact flourescent bulb. #they generally use about 1/4 the wattage to give the same amount of light. #they do cost more but the lifespan of the bulb is much longer so it actually cost less and there are a dozen less incandescent bulbs in the landfill. #the new bulbs make less heat also which takes some of the load off of your cooling system. of course in many part of the country, water is a problem as well and using less is a good idea for everybody. #i use a low flow shower head and a washing machine called a staber. #the toilet was replaced with a new 1.5 gallon model. #less water needed and of course the water pump is running less too saving electricity. #something to think about out there in power grid land. #try to do something to lessen the burden.....and save some money in the process!
chris/N3GAD
Chris, I'm all for you and your efforts to conserve electricity. Bravo! and my kudo's to you!
However, I believe that the "wasted power" situation goes a lot deeper than you or I alone ( and by that, I am talking about ALL of us individuals out there ) can adequately address.
When New York, Buffalo, Cleveland, et all went dark, I dare say that millions of kilowatt/hours of electricity were saved for several hours. But BOY, were those cities ever dark ! ( see my favorite web site http://www.spaceweather.com for some very interesting satellite pictures of the blackout ! )
The first thing that New York did when the power was restored to the grid, was to turn on all the lights on Broadway! Neon, Argon, and all those other HUGH electric lights that advertise everything from alcoholic beverages to exotic underwear were once again beaming their message down to the people on the streets! Don't tell me that money (advertising dollars) doesn't talk!
Amateur Astronomers have talked about "light pollution" for years, and have just been "poo-pooed" about the subject, but I remember reading with much glee about some New Yorkers that said " I have never seen the Moon so bright, and I saw MARS too ! "
Yes, there are pleasures to be had from turning down the energy a little bit. And perhaps it is for that reason that you should be encouraged to continue your campaign against the abuse of electrical power. But it is going to take more than individuals such as yourself fighting against the current ( no pun intended ) trend, to make any difference in the eventual outcome. At this time, it's like the Salmon trying to fight their way upstream. They might make it, but they die in the effort!
Just my 2Cents worth
73 from Jim AG3Y
WB2WIK
08-19-2003, 06:16 PM
Here in Los Angeles, anyone who installs an alternative power source on their property with functionality to provide power back to the grid when power generated is excess to their home's needs gets a couple of instant advantages:
-Pretty much living "off grid"
-The Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power will rebate most of the cost of the alternative power source provided it's an approved one
-And, they'll pay the homeowner the "going rate" for electric power generated and not consumed
It's a pretty good deal. My next-door neighbor just installed solar panels on his roof, along with regulators, batteries, inverters and a switch to perform these functions automatically, and thus far, he's been pretty much self-sufficient since last October. The Dept. of Water and Power provided him with an $8000 rebate against his total $12000 cost of the system, and they've been paying him about $100 monthly since...so his entire investment will break-even and cost him "zero" in three years, after which time the system will begin actually making money.
Not bad. I don't know how many other cities offer such a program, but it's well accepted here, and I'll probably add the solar panels to my roof come this winter!
WB2WIK/6
N7VQM
08-19-2003, 09:42 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeer @ Aug. 19 2003,14:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your motivation to find better ways to cool the house goes up a lot when you no longer have the A/C to fall back on.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'd like to hear about this because I have tried various means of keeping my place cool like heavy curtains, ect and they just aren't working.
WB2WIK
08-19-2003, 10:04 PM
A truly powerful "attic fan" helps a lot, especially if you provide the fan an air flow path through the house.
The little ones most people install to keep the attic area ventilated don't do much. My dad installed this
huge attic fan in our house when I was a kid in the 1950's...it made very little noise because it was low-speed with huge fan blades...and he built a louvered attic hatch door that allowed a lot of air to be drawn through the whole house, and then exhausted out a very large louvered opening in the attic. The fan was probably 60" in diameter (blades). These are called "whole house" cooling fans today, but they were just "attic fans" when I was a kid.
It drew such a huge draft of air through the house, that loose paper would become airborne. But that much air moving provides a lot of cooling effect, and the power consumption is far less than air conditioning. I think the motor on the huge fan was probably 1/4 horsepower, or around 200W. Not much compared with the >4000W my air conditioning system consumes.
WB2WIK
08-20-2003, 04:25 PM
Then again, allegedly 5000 people in France have died from the heat this summer.
Ah, what do they know? In a country where drinking water costs more than wine, they were probably all drinking wine, which doesn't help in the heat.
n6hle
08-20-2003, 04:29 PM
I've always been told a computer is one of the biggest power hogs in the house. I can see how that is. But recently I've been hearing a lot that you should leave you computer on because it uses less power over a certain period of time than it does to boot it up. Is this true? My roommate lives by this because her friend told her so and her friends just can't be wrong. Also do LCD flat panel monitors use less or more power than normal monitors? I've been wanting to get one but I'm still waiting for the prices to come down. I will eventually get one unless they comsume considerably more power.
On a related note:
One thing I do to drop the power usage (ever since gettng a $200+ power bill a couple months ago) is kill the power to my bedroom at the circuit breaker panel when I leave for work in the morning. I have a tv, vcr, dvd player and digital cable converter in my room which all draw lots of power even when they are "turned off", much like the satellite TV converters. The only draw back to this is I have to reset my alarm clock every night, but it's saved quite a bit of money and is well worth my time.
WB2WIK
08-20-2003, 05:18 PM
That's really saved quite a bit of money? Seriously?
I'm shocked.
All my appliances which have a "standby" mode so they can be used with a remote-control device, e.g., televisions, stereos, DVD, VHS, etc, draw almost zero current and dissipate nearly zero power when standing by. My largest television set, a 52" projection Mitsubishi, consumes precisely 4 Watts in standby. I've measured it, using a sensitive clamp-on amprobe...33 mA from the 120V line = 4W. Most of the other "standby" appliances dissipate less.
My 19" SVGA CRT-type monitors draw, on average, 150W per monitor when fully operating. That's 1.25A, measured, using the same calibrated amprobe. The smaller 17" monitors draw a tad less.
My 17" FPD (flat panel SVGA monitor) draws 72W when fully operating. That's 600mA at 120V, measured using the same calibrated amprobe.
The measurements agree very well with the Product Safety labels on the appliances. Every appliance will have an Agency label on it somewhere, stipulating the operating voltage and maximum current consumption. In my experience, the current rating is usually rounded on the "high" side to make it a tidy sum, such as 0.8A. In reality, an appliance rated 0.8A likely consumes less than that.
Most PCs are powered by 250-300W power supplies having about 80% efficiency, so their actual line power consumption (for a 300W supply), assuming a "fully loaded" PC with all the PCI slots filled with expansion cards and all drive bays occupied and running, will be about 375W. That's 3.125A from a 120V line. And that's a very "worst case" for most home consumer PCs, since few people have all slots loaded and all peripheral drive bays filled and running. In the case of my desktop Dell here at the office, to hit the "worst case" power consumption rating, I'd need to add three more disk drives and three more PCI cards, each having an average power consumption of 15W.
As for "booting up" taking more power than "running" a PC, that's ridiculous and certainly not true. The only difference between boot-up and run mode is that with power-up, the disk drive(s) spin up from zero to full speed, which consumes about 50% more than "run" power for all of about ten seconds. After that, it's all the same.
The suggestion to leave PCs running, though, isn't such a bad one. I do it myself, usually. Reason isn't to save electricity, it's to save time. If the PC takes two minutes to boot up and ready, that's two minutes wasted. Some computers, especially very "loaded" ones with more complex operating systems, will take longer than this, so it's more time wasted.
WB2WIK/6
N7VQM
08-20-2003, 06:15 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeer @ Aug. 20 2003,01:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
The whole idea is to get the inside of the house cool at night. #
<snip>
#Doing this all night, you can get the house below 70 most nights, particularly if you're at altitude.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Ahh. #I think I've done about the best I can, then. #Trying to draw in cool air over night wouldn't do much good because overnight temps haven't droped much below 80 in a couple weeks. #As an added "bonus," this place doesn't have anything but gable vents. #I don't own the place so I can't have fans installed. #With the AC running and a fan in the below-ground level blowing up the stair, temps in the house hover around 85 depending on outside temp. Without the AC, the temp rises to outside air temp in a couple hours.
Oh well. #Only a couple more months to stick it out and I'm outta here.
WA2ZDY
08-20-2003, 08:21 PM
Here's how I learned to keep cool living in the projects as a kid. #We did have access to the crawlspace hatch for a while, but that really isn't needed. #At night, you pull down the room darkening shades and crack the windows just a few inches. #Pick one window for the fan, point it out and turn it on as high as you can stand the noise. #All night it sucks cool air in through the opposite windows, thus drawing the cooler night air in through the place.
When the sun comes up, the shades are keeping that heat out and as soon as outside warms up past the inside temp, kill the fan and close the windows.
Worked for my entire childhood.
Good luck.
ai4ep
08-20-2003, 10:01 PM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif warm beer ? .... that is so un-american..
if you use electric to heat your water, this is a big help.... go to home depot and pick up a 220 volt timer and set up times during a 24 hr period when your hot water heater can be shut down....note, none of this applies if you have 2 daughters and a wife that take a shower before you in the morning. dan,k3xr
n6hle
08-21-2003, 04:02 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3XR @ Aug. 20 2003,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you use electric to heat your water, this is a big help.... go to home depot and pick up a 220 volt timer and set up times during a 24 hr period when your hot water heater can be shut down....note, none of this applies if you have 2 daughters and a wife that take a shower before you in the morning. dan,k3xr[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Electric water heaters can be a real pain when the power goes out in the middle of the night and you have to take a cold shower before going to work.
Shack sells a neat device Kill-A-Watt. I can send pix and info by email. Costs about $50 if not on sale. Measures line volts/amps,watts (true rms), vars, power factor. Also totallizes your kw draw over time. Best device I have seen to find what your equip really costs.
Many years ago I had a Drake satellite receiver (8' dish), drew about 60 watts on, about 55 off. Asked a Drake tech about this, he said the OFF only turns off the display, they keep the power on to keep the LNA from freezing. I put in a line break off switch.
Those night lights and wall-warts can add up too.
I think the answer is to get your wife to peddle faster.
TOM K8ERV
K9STH
08-22-2003, 12:32 AM
As for water conservation by using the now required 1.5 gallon toilets, the majority of plumbing contractors, plumbers, etc., say that they really waste water since a single "flush" quite often does not do the job! I know that I often have to flush twice since my toilets were replaced with the "water conserving" types! Two flushes uses about 50 percent more water than the original toilets. One toilet is worse than the other yet both basically connect to the same point on my plumbing system (are "back to back" with a wall in between).
There is a person in the Dallas - Fort Worth area who does regular "handyman" shows both on radio and television. You don't want to get him started about the new toilets! He hates them with a passion.
As for electricity conservation, there are all sorts of things that you can do including just shutting off lights when leaving a room. Also, since many electric companies these days try to maintain 125 volts +/- 2 percent, use of 130 volt light bulbs instead of the 120 volt light bulbs saves in several ways. First of all, they do draw less current and put out virtually the same amount of light. Secondly, since the line voltage doesn't exceed the ratings of the bulbs, they usually last from at least 5 times to over 10 times longer than the 120 volt bulbs. Home improvement centers often have these bulbs in "generic" (black and white packaging) at lower prices than the 120 volt bulbs. If you home improvement center doesn't have 130 volt bulbs, then you can get them at lighting supply companies for about the same price as the 120 volt bulbs. Speciality bulbs ( like "3-way" bulbs) can usually be found in 130 volt models at lighting specialty houses.
Since my ambient line voltage is normally around 127 volts I avoid 120 volt bulbs "like the plague"!
Glen, K9STH
ae4fa
08-22-2003, 12:59 AM
I've found another way to increase bulb (whatever type) longevity and reduce power consumption. When I change bulbs, I always apply a very light coat of conductive, anti-oxidation, grease to the threads.
My hat is off to N3GAD for his true pioneer spirit. That's what made this country great!. One day I may join that particular revolution.
ae4fa
08-22-2003, 01:04 AM
And, Glen, I agree wholeheartedly on the toilets! Same experience here.
A while back, there was a thread on the Dear Abby column that relates to this subject. Started out with a wife complaining about her husband's habit of whizzing in the yard. Ended with an analysis of water savings from this practice. Figure 1.6 gallons per whiz per adult male in the USA - and figure 5 whizzes per day for each. The numbers are astounding!
Suffice to say I am a practioner . . .
If it's yellow, leave it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down. Works.
Glen, bet you could lower that 127volts if you turned everything on!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
K9STH
08-22-2003, 01:34 PM
ERV:
Not much unless I "blow" the overloads on the two power "pigs" that are in parallel to feed 8 houses on my alley. Those have gone several times in the past 2 or 3 months! TXU (they now call their distribution company "Oncor") needs to replace them, but, like many of the electric companies, they have cut way back on maintenance to reduce cost since de-regulation is cutting into their profits. That cuts my voltage to zero!
Also, TXU increases prices during the summer months supposedly to make people "want" to conserve power. Of course when the temperature is over 100 degrees Farenheidt actual (not "heat index") there isn't much that you can do to "conserve" energy! Then, during the winter months the gas prices go up. Of course TXU also owns the gas company! This price increase is to make people "want" to conserve gas instead of burning it up in their furnaces. Of course when the temperature is well below freezing (it gets below zero at times in the north central Texas area) there isn't much that you can do to conserve gas except to let your pipes freeze, etc.!
It wasn't as bad when I worked for the company, at least the price increase paid a part of my salary! But, employees didn't get a single break except that we could send our payments via company mail and not have to put on a stamp. Otherwise, if you got behind in your bill and the company realized that you worked for the company, your power or gas WOULD be turned off and yet other people could get a number of months behind without such a penalty! They believed that employees should set an example for everyone else and the company didn't want to appear to the Public Utilities Commission as "favoring" employees.
People do complain about large bills, like over $1000, during the summer. But, when someone gets beyond the television "consumer reporters" and all their "hype", you discover that the person hasn't paid their bills for 9 months to a year and the total is what they owe for the entire period, not just one month. Still, since most of these people represent certain classifications of ethnic backgrounds, the company doesn't turn off their power since it would result in "bad" publicity! This, of course, has to be made up for by the remainder of the customers.
One big thing is the "fuel adjustment charges". This can double your rate and is "perfectly" legal even with regulation. Since TXU owns its own gas pipelines, its own coal mines, etc., but since these are separate "profit centers", they can "charge" a higher price for the fuel and thus recover it from the ratepayer.
Anyway, the companies that are "selling" power that is still delivered by TXU lines are, for the most part, more expensive than TXU so it doesn't pay to change companies! By the time all of the charges get added to your bill, even though another company might seem to be cheaper at first, you end up paying more for their service. There are a couple of companies who's total prices are about $2 or $3 a month cheaper than TXU, at least right now, for the "average" user. But, the price difference is not worth the "hastle" of dealing with another company since TXU still provides the power to your house.
Glen, K9STH
K9STH
08-22-2003, 02:51 PM
Talk about "bad timing"! My comments on TXU's rates were accurate yesterday, but in today's edition of the Dallas Morning News there is an article on the fact that they have increased prices! Now there are no less than six companies that are cheaper and only three that are more expensive! With the price increase TXU is now right at $101 per 1000 KW Hours. The cheapest is now Gexa Energy at $85 for the same 1000 KWH! The remaining companies that are lower have $86, $90, $91, $92, and $93 per 1000 KWH. The three that are higher are at $103, $108, and $111 for the same amount of power.
Since I definitely use, on average, a "bit" more than 1000 KWH, if I were to switch to Gexa I could "cut" my power bill by about 16 percent. The latest price increases have definitely inspired me to check into the two lowest priced alternatives. One or two percent wouldn't probably be worth all of the effort that it takes to change power companies. But, 16 percent is definitely worth looking into!
Glen, K9STH
KC7YRN
08-22-2003, 03:09 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kg6ptd @ Aug. 20 2003,09:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">#Also do LCD flat panel monitors use less or more power than normal monitors? :
One thing I do to drop the power usage (ever since gettng a $200+ power bill a couple months ago) is kill the power to my bedroom at the circuit breaker panel when I leave for work in the morning. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
LCD's use much less power than CRT's.
Are you sure your circuit breaker is rated for being turned on and off daily? I seem to remember reading that they don't like being treated as light switches.
WB2WIK
08-22-2003, 04:31 PM
Glen, regarding the new-tech low-capacity "water saving" toilets:
I agree with you.
Not only are these truly stupid and likely not to save anything, but the ones we can generally find are also poorly made (lousy quality), to boot.
My XYL is a Filipina and loves things that are "American made," thinking what's made here is generally better than the stuff she used to be able to get locally, back home. (Of course, she's an American citizen now, and has been for 20 years, but that's beside the point!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
When we purchased our current home, it had the old toilets, which had to be changed by law before we could take occupancy. The local water and power company will provide new "water saving" toilets free of charge if you turn in your old ones, and they'll even install them very inexpensively (I think $20 each), so it's not difficult to "upgrade" for anyone. So, of course, we called in to take advantage of the program while the house was in escrow.
They showed up with the shiny new toilets. My XYL was happy to have new toilets (I can't even begin to explain this one), and proudly proclaimed, "Oh, good American-made toilets." They were installed and tested, and the installers left. I went to take a closer look at their work, and saw this mark stamped into the toilet tanks:
MADE IN PHILIPPINES
Heh, heh, heh....they are crappy, and I never told the XYL she didn't have "American" toilets....
WB2WIK/6
OOOh, I love a good pun. TOM K8ERV
WA2ZDY
08-23-2003, 05:10 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC7YRN @ Aug. 22 2003,09:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you sure your circuit breaker is rated for being turned on and off daily? I seem to remember reading that they don't like being treated as light switches.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Using circuit breakers like switches will almost certainly lead to failure. And sadly, the kind of failure is not predictable.
They may start tripping for no reason, or they may fail to trip with a very good reason. Don't do it. Buy switches for the job of switching. Let the breakers be the safety devices they are meant to be.
And as for the water saving toilets, like others have said, they take more than once flush. What a waste THAT is. Sir John Crapper would roll in his grave if he could . . .
kd5icr
08-24-2003, 06:23 PM
Het Glen.
TXU also has price avarage billing but be carefull they sometimes hit you hard on the last bill of that year. Also I work for DISD and a few people there use reliant energy and they are a lot higher than TXU. I think I will stay with TXU because they have been here and I know they will stay around for a while. I would like to save a few dollars a month but as you and I know it wont get better untill summer is behide us. Besides the cost of switching can cause the price to jump and you end up paying more, I know it happened to me last year.