Power outage out east

[KD4LEI]

Well guys, it appears the power outage out east caused the cell phone capability to head south.

All this mess just reminded me again how important amateur radio communications is in times like what happened yesterday; irregardless if the HF or VHF/UHF bands were utilized.

How many, IF any helped out when this mess went down?

Nother good reason for living in the WEST! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TOM K8ERV

[ae4fa]

New technology is definately superior to the antiquated stuff. Why, in 1977, old technology could only extend the black-out to the NYC area. Today's modern stuff was able to extend it out to Cleveland, Detroit, Toronto, and Ottawa . . .

[ka1kjz]

What do you mean? Mine worked fine throughout... News outlets called NYC's cellphone coverage "spotty", hardly a failure.

Most if not all cellphone sites are battery backed, they'll last about a day, till they can get a generator truck there.
Of course, generator trucks would have been in short supply if this lasted more than a few hours.

Ron
Central CT (in the heart of it)

[KD4LEI]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka1kjz @ Aug. 15 2003,06:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What do you mean? Mine worked fine throughout... News outlets called NYC's cellphone coverage &quot;spotty&quot;, hardly a failure.

Most if not all cellphone sites are battery backed, they'll last about a day, till they can get a generator truck there.
Of course, generator trucks would have been in short supply if this lasted more than a few hours.

Ron
Central CT (in the heart of it)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
From what I heard while listening to the Sean Hannity show yesterday when this happened was the initial reports that the cell phones were out in NYC for a bit as well as other spots.

not the most reliable but of course the panic level was minimal if even apparent. This part was good news!

[n8xd]

Whohoo! Yippie.... our great leader says &quot;The power grid needs to be upgraded...&quot; (and the unspoken part -- &quot;with taxpayer dollars so it will support BPL&quot;)

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

They are so sneaky! *hehe*

[ka5s]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD4LEI @ Aug. 15 2003,07:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">show yesterday when this happened was the initial reports that the cell phones were out in NYC for a bit as well as other spots.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The usual culprit; too many users for the system.

Cortland

[ka1kjz]

Yep. every Armani wearing, bottom dwelling, Wallstreeter outside trying to make a call, thinking that theirs is the most important in the world. How dare a national emergency get in MY way.

(I used to work in Midtown, I spent every morning and every evening on the train with these &quot;winners&quot;)

Next time a news outlet says coverage was &quot;spotty&quot;, I'd really like to see the front of the phone... if its overloaded it will say &quot;Try Later&quot; or something along those lines, if its totally out, then it will say &quot;No Service&quot;

[W8FAX]

Gee....I wonder if all the repeaters in the area were wiped out too. They would be far more likely to drop out than the cell phones............sure would put a hurt on the instant response of all those hams who do not have generators, mobiles, and only hand helds, if communications were really needed. By the time they get re-organized, the power is back on........

[KC8QMU]

Gee....I wonder if all the repeaters in the area were wiped out too. They would be far more likely to drop out than the cell phones............sure would put a hurt on the instant response of all those hams who do not have generators, mobiles, and only hand helds, if communications were really needed. By the time they get re-organized, the power is back on........


True- but real hams can put out a decent signal on simplex anyway (provided they know how to talk on anything else besides repeaters) or on hf! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif did any one notice that on nationwide television that there were FEW ( if any ) advertisements for the CELLULER telephone companies while this black out was occuring ? They love to take our money every month, dont install generators or batteires to power their systems when the main electricity goes off...you know they are making mucho bucks http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif from JOHN DOE public...it just makes me wonder---the SPRINT guy saying &quot; can you hear me now ? &quot; was not walking the streets of the blacked out cities, nor was the black headed man with the long trenchcoat ( no, not JASON or FREDDY ( lol ) telling us how great it was going to be with a new cell phone that he promotes --- it is a wonder the NAACP did not get upset with the &quot; lack of electricity situation &quot; being called a BLACK out ( could be a racist term ). http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif ....stay tuned, it could happen again http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ka5s]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8FAX @ Aug. 15 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee....I wonder if all the repeaters in the area were wiped out too. They would be far more likely to drop out than the cell phones[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The article on the ARRL page says Amateurs proved better prepared to operate without commercial power than government agencies.

Cortland

[W8FAX]

I know....I read the ARRL bulYesletin. I truly believe every thing the ARRL publicity dept. puts out about ham radio. I really do ....sure. With a few hundred thousand folks stranded and power down everywhere, I sincerely doubt that the few hams who could get a signal up were much force for anybody. I'm sure they gave it the best shot they could under the circumstances, but realistically, there are just not that many who are equipped to run mobile or portable power. And even if they could work simplex on HF or VHF, how would they pass the traffic that was generated. The phones are out, so now what??
When we had a tornado here recently (a few years back) in one of the small towns, it was the same story. The ARRL jumped on the band wagon and said how fast we all responded, etc. FACT was, it was chaos because few hams really know proper net protocol, and they could not get set up for TWO DAYS because the repeaters were down in the town, and a generator was not available, and could not be brought in because the roads were closed to all but emergency traffic. The authorities did NOT think hams were emergency traffic. As one policeman said, &quot;We know hams want to help, but most are really untrained in emergency procedures well enough to work with emergency services. You are just someone else we have to watch out for.&quot; Another time, the local club sent their emergency communications van out to help after a flood, the locals had enuff, and told them to pack it up and head back. They were more danger than help. I know hams really try to help and sure do when they can. And often hams are directly responsible for saving life. But the ARRL has the job of making us look good any chance they can, and they do a pretty good job of PUBLICITY. Facts??? well, that may be another subject. Like any news story, I guess you can report all, or part, or bits and pieces................

[KD7WHQ]

Today, I scored the 15' of #3 AWG copper I needed to get the battery power into the house.
Blackout? What blackout?
3 8D batteries will do a LOT of work, for quite a while..

[KA8NCR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka5s @ Aug. 15 2003,14:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8FAX @ Aug. 15 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee....I wonder if all the repeaters in the area were wiped out too. They would be far more likely to drop out than the cell phones[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The article on the ARRL page says Amateurs proved better prepared to operate without commercial power than government agencies.

Cortland[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just another field day here.

Although admittedly, fuel supply getting a bit thin.

[K9STH]

The problem with the cellular and PCS systems is that, unless the site is actually physically put out of service (tower knocked down, etc.), that it almost immediately overloads with traffic. Everyone decides that his/her call &quot;must&quot; be of prime importance and therefore they start using them immediately.

Also, in most cases, it is not the local amateur radio operators that provide the emergency communications, but people from surrounding areas that have not been affected by the emergency. Locals are usually &quot;too busy&quot; digging themselves and their families out from under the disaster to worry about setting up communications links. Of course, there are a few exceptions to this, but, by and large, communications are usually handled by persons from outside the locale.

Since the area affected by this most recent grid failure is so large, I would expect that the number of people who could get to the most affected areas in a fairly short period of time would be very low. Even if a cadre' of amateur radio operators was coming, the nearest areas not affected by the blackout started with the State of Indiana. Even if there were a fair number trying to get to the affected area, they would be hard-pressed to get things like gasoline for their vehicles (gas pumps don't operate well without electricity!) unless they carried a good supply with them. As such, since this &quot;disaster&quot; was not really a physical disaster, but just a MAJOR inconvenience, I would doubt that there were that many amateurs &quot;on the way&quot; to help out. If there had been some type of natural (or man-made of some type), then I also believe that there would have been all sorts of help on its way.

Now, proper training in communications procedures is a &quot;must&quot;, especially when more than a &quot;handful&quot; of stations are involved. This is where stations coming in from without the &quot;disaster&quot; area function best.

As for the situation itself: Having worked for a MAJOR power company for over 10 years, I had to become familar with what is called &quot;black start procedures&quot;. We usually had at least two &quot;drills&quot; per year about how to handle this. Although the power was never interrupted, procedures including telecommunications (which played a MAJOR role in these procedures) were done as if there had been a complete power failure.

Back when the power companies were not so interconnected it was a relatively easy process to get the generators back on line. But, with all of the interconnect, it requires a VERY methodic procedure usually starting with a hydro-electric station. For some reason, it seems that a hydro-electric station is the easiest to get the absolute frequency started. Then two systems &quot;lock onto&quot; this station. Then four, then eight, etc. At least this was the procedure that TXU and ERCOT (the distribution interconnect system for this part of the country) used. Both the absolute frequency and the &quot;phase&quot; of the current MUST be interlocked before the next system &quot;comes on line&quot;. This requires a &quot;bit&quot; more than what it might seem to require and can take some time to accomplish.

For ERCOT, the starting point (at least when I was employed by TXU) was the small hydro-electric generation facility on the Lake Texoma dam. After this generating station starts supplying power to the grid, then the other companies start to add their generation facilities until everything is back on.

If there wasn't all the interconnection, then yesterday's problem would have only affected a very small number of subscribers (maybe even less that 1000!). But, because of the need for &quot;load sharing&quot; almost all of the generation facilities in the United States, Canada, and even portions of Mexico are interconnected in a very small number of &quot;grids&quot;. According to this morning's edition of the Dallas Morning News, the &quot;local&quot; electrical grid (ERCOT) has never had to purchase power from anywhere else. So far, the system has provided suplemental power to other grids (especially the State of California). Also, the interconnection of ERCOT to the other major electrical grids is minimal. Thus, the interruption did not affect us.

As for the &quot;cause&quot; of the blackout, look at the article on the following webpage:

http://www.heraldargus.com/content/story.php?storyid=3347

A guy from LaPorte, Indiana (my &quot;home town&quot;) says that his trying to get through the gate on the New York Subway caused the problem! At least the system went down when he tried to &quot;swipe&quot; his ticket.

Anyway, our dependence on electrical power has become absolute. Our modern society just cannot function without it!

Glen, K9STH

[kf4lne]

Real hams can put out a stout signal on simplex while completely off grid and not notice the outage... I actually sat in front of my radios for 2 hours during an ice storm before i noticed the power was out. this is the disadvantage of having 200 amp hours of reserve power and using 12 vdc halogen lighting in the shack... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I originally installed this system to be prepared for bad weather. The power goes out here at least 4 times a year from trees falling because the yuppies cried about the trees being cut back, I guess they would rather go without power every time the weather gets bad. Roads get blocked by fallen trees too. I guess I would rather deal with a gap in the trees and be able to heat my home and prepare a meal rather than be forced to go out into the weather to find food and warmth...But then I have a generator and a kerosene heater too http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[W8FAX]

Dan, Glen....I guess a lot of folks just get to be so reliant on technology, that the removal of it's prime power source is devastating. We as a society, are so used to the power being there when the switch is thrown, or water at the tap, or a TV show when we turn the system on, or an internet, etc., etc. A local power outage is one thing, but a massive failure REALLY gets your attention. No A/C, no water, no phone, no gasoline, no refridgerator, no stove, and so on. No water also means no toilet facilities. No stove....no hot food. No referigerator, no food storage. If ya got them cans yer O.K. AND a good supply of fresh water. My house RUNS on electricity. Electric water heater, and stove. My furnace is fuel, but requires electricity to run the blower and burner. I have a well. So the need for a 220 generator is obvious. PLUS, I keep a big supply of water, and firewood for the woodstove. But when the power is out, it's strange how you are mentally conditioned. You think about doing some activity and are constantly reminded that you can't do much except split wood and further the human population when there is no power. I don't believe there are anywhere near enuff hams now who are either trained, or have the equipment, to do much in a power shut down. But the few that can, I am sure are appreciated by those that get the help. That is..........until the ham wants to put up a tower...............

[kf4lne]

maybe when the grid gets its overhaul some of those really nice towers will be auctioned off http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I could use one of those in my yard with maybe 2 or 3 hundred antennas on it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AE6IP]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka5s @ Aug. 15 2003,14:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W8FAX @ Aug. 15 2003,13:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee....I wonder if all the repeaters in the area were wiped out too. They would be far more likely to drop out than the cell phones[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The article on the ARRL page says Amateurs proved better prepared to operate without commercial power than government agencies.

Cortland[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunately, no one but the ARRL seems to have noticed this. My buddy who is an NYC homicide detective never mentioned having any problems with communications.

[ka5s]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AE6IP @ Aug. 17 2003,00:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, no one but the ARRL seems to have noticed this. My buddy who is an NYC homicide detective never mentioned having any problems with communications.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yeah, safety agencies who have had problems arrange things so they don't have them twice. Not everyone is as prepared as NYC! Too, unlike 9/11, the public safety systems in NYC this time were probably not up to &quot;here.&quot;

However it's not uncommon that governments, especially smaller ones, have temporary radio problems during widespread outages, while Amateurs are still available for overflow or even, occasionally, replacement traffic. I believe it is this &quot;still here, boss!&quot; that the comment refers to. Most of them, after all, are only down until someone remembers where the key to the generator room is, etc. .


Cortland

[kg4rrm]

I remember hearing on the news that one of the high up police officers could use his radio. I think that he was a commissioner. I think it was on CNN two days ago.

[W5HTW]

There is another thing called media hype. You heard all about the power outages in Michigan? A friend in Muskegon tells me there wasn't even a flicker, and gas stations around here were open for business. The media have a feeling that Detroit IS Michigan.

Were you on the internet? See anything slowing down? I was on during much of the early hours of the outage and again the next day. No problem. Only site I couldn't access (of the ones I tried!) was this one -- qrz.com. And I doubt that was due to the blackout.

Hours and hours and hours of big shot announcers telling us hours and hours and hours of nothing except jaw movement.

I think W8FAX hit it pretty well in his first posting. The majority of hams are 'in the way' of authorities. We pat ourselves so hard on the back we can do a reverse Hemlick maneuver on ourselves. And now there is a bigger push to get us to not be called &quot;amateur&quot; but &quot;professional&quot; As if a ham license is a degree in anything at all. But a lot of us want to the &quot;The Authority&quot; strutting around with uniforms and badges, and our belt-bound HTs, but we don't want to take the training to be a cop or fireman, so, &quot;Ah, ha, here's a short cut to being extremely important - get a ham ticket.&quot;

Most civil governments can get it together pretty quickly, and even local governments can do so with the help of others in their region. Yeah, once in a while we hams can be of service. Mostly we are more amateurs - read: onlookers - trapsing around an emergency scene and thinking we are trained experts.

Yes, of course the ARRL hypes this story as well, as they have done with the forest fire stories here in the west. And hams DO participate. But the active ham participation began to wane when local governments got their own VHF links, computers, generators, personnel to run them, etc. We are no longer dealing with governments that use a black, rotatry telephone as their sole means of communication. They have radio, repeaters, mobile units, cell phones, data links, and some have satellite links as well.

We perform best as a hobby.

ed

[K9STH]

The problem with QRZ.com being &quot;down&quot; had nothing to do with the blackout. Fred was physically moving the servers from one location to another.

Glen, K9STH

[kd5wih]

The NE power failure adds validity to the argument against BPL. Electrical utilities expertise is in delivering power. Their infrastructure is designed to deliver power. If they can't do that, why would anyone think they should go into a new area, where they have no experience?

I urge you to write to the FCC and to your elected officials. But don't whine about the damage to your hobby. More people want Internet access than want amateur radio. Write about the unreliability of the grid and the damage to all users of HF: military, marine, aeronautical and amateurs conducting emergency communications. Point out the potential of loss of life in a disaster.

73
KD5WIH

[KD7WHQ]

Yup, Glen has the lowdown.
I emailed Fred a few days back, as I couldn't get in, and thought the site might be being DoS'd, and he told me the same thing.

This is a HUGE site, and it takes time to move the files between server A and B.

Bandwidth is bandwidth, sockets are sockets, and it doesn't matter who is using it or them. When they run out, it's &quot;down&quot; until resources are freed. It's still online, you just can't get in.

I had a 48 hour period I couldn't get in, and then another 6. I suspect you hit the 6 hour period..

[ei5ja]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD4LEI @ Aug. 15 2003,07:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[
From what I heard while listening to the Sean Hannity[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Not the most reliable source in the world! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif