View Full Version : Ribbon microphones and amateur radio
MI3LVZ
09-13-2010, 06:47 PM
Hi, does anyone have any experience with ribbon mics on amateur radio equipment. Any suggestions would be welcome as to what mics are best but no RCA 33's or 77's as aint won the lottery just yet ha ha..
Martin.
2I0GIQ
K1DNR
09-14-2010, 05:45 AM
I'm curious why you are interested in using a ribbon mic for amateur radio.
My knowlege of microphones is more related to my experience as a musician, both live sound and recording.
Recording we'd typically use a ribbon mic on something like a trombone. It just sounded good on the trombone.
It would have been a lousy choice for the piano, and perhaps marginal for my saxophone.
What ended up with on the saxophones was a large Telefunken U47 that sounded like liquid silk to my ears. Large diaphragm condenser tube operated microphone.
The other key to the mix the engineers finally got were the Neve tube preamps. Not solid state stuff...
Are you going for a particular "sound"?
MI3LVZ
09-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Hi Charley, thanks for the reply. I was just enquiring as to any difficulties with ribbon mics used with amateur radio as they appear to be praised for their excellent audio quality but i am not aware of any amateur using them. Some of the old style pill shaped mics look fantastic and would look very handsome in anybody's shack.
Thanks again.
Martin.
2I0GIQ
K1DNR
09-15-2010, 12:39 AM
I don't have specs on any of those old mics. I'd guess you'd need to match the impedance.
There has been a resurgance in ribbon microphone production, and there are modern versions in production at very affordable prices.
Ribbon mics are usually bi-directional/figure-8 pattern... This can be nice for music becuase it picks up some of the natural sound of the room. I'm not sure it is a advantageous pattern for ham radio unless the room acoustics and noise of the equipment are accounted for. They also have less "proximity" effect, meaning they don't get boomy when you get close to them. People clam the high end is mellower than a condenser (which would explain our experience for the trombone).
I'm approaching this from a musician/recording perspective, not really a ham radio one... sorry.
WB2WIK
09-15-2010, 02:31 AM
Ribbon mics are usually bi-directional/figure-8 pattern
That's all based on the baffling and enclosure design, not the ribbon.
Ribbon mikes are fine but many of the great ones couldn't take a lot of sound pressure and you could blow them out with excessive Dynes (acoustic pressure), which might explain why they normally wouldn't be used with instruments providing too much volume.
With modern technology, I can't imagine why anyone would need one.
K1DNR
09-15-2010, 03:37 AM
Trombone was recorded with an old RCA ribbon mic through a Neve tube pre amp:
http://www.socci.com/TheVisit/Track01.mp3
K1DNR
09-15-2010, 03:45 AM
With modern technology, I can't imagine why anyone would need one.
It all comes down to how a particular mic or electronics color the sound. I have a friend who won't track and mix on anything but an old Otari 1/2" reel to reel and the results he gets are pretty amazing. You'd definitely know some of the names he has recorded over there.
As for ham radio, all I can think is you might want a mic that colors your voice in a way that compliments your voice, gives it presence, cuts through in a pileup, etc...
Hence all the audio eq equipment available. The Flex Radio guys have a really cool feature in that they can use pre-set algorithms in the software to "model" different microphones. I've done a similar thing with hard disk recording software...
W0UZR
09-15-2010, 07:11 AM
I heard of a ham using a RCA-77. And he had to run it through a fair amount of equipment in order to get it to work well. I can't remember what it all was. A Compressor, Equalizer, a Noise Gate for sure.
The thing with ribbon microphones are is that they are about as bad as D-104s on picking up background noise, your breath noises, and a number of other quirks. I'm pretty sure that those mics have to have Line Voltage, and or Phantom Voltage and a PRE AMP in order to work well. It's been a quite a while that I investigated it, so I'm not completely sure. They take some doing to get them to sound great and takes some equipment. You cannot just plug it in and figure it's going to sound great straight into the radio. And another bad thing about those mics are that the ribbon on some of the older mics may be loose and needs to be tightened. Some ribbons don't age very well. And they are not tough like dynamic mics are, so don't bump them too hard.
KI6USW
09-15-2010, 08:08 AM
I'm curious why you are interested in using a ribbon mic for amateur radio.
My knowlege of microphones is more related to my experience as a musician, both live sound and recording.
Recording we'd typically use a ribbon mic on something like a trombone. It just sounded good on the trombone.
It would have been a lousy choice for the piano, and perhaps marginal for my saxophone.
What ended up with on the saxophones was a large Telefunken U47 that sounded like liquid silk to my ears. Large diaphragm condenser tube operated microphone.
The other key to the mix the engineers finally got were the Neve tube preamps. Not solid state stuff...
Are you going for a particular "sound"?
I'd have to agree with that answer.
To go on...
As a musician myself - and someone that had recording studio training - a ribbon mic is more of a instrument specialty mic than a staple vocal mic. A large-capsule condenser mic is the optimal choice. The best ones are v e r y expensive and not really necessary for Amatuer Radio operators. But there are some mics in this category that aren't prohibitively expensive that still deliver really superb performance.
Large capsule condenser mics is what you should focus on - IMO. As an example, I use a MXL V-88 mic. Google it. You will find them less than a $100 used. Paid $80 for mine. Try eBay. There are other mics like it in the range; but I have found it exceptional for the price. Many of the MXL, Rode, and limited few brands of other mics will work well with a Behringer 2200 Ultra Gain mic preamp - which can be had for $70/used on eBay. Condenser mics like these require 'phantom power' (+48v) built in to the mic preamp. Quality sound is affordable if that is what you want or need. You cannot go wrong if you follow my suggested selections if you aren't sure about choosing and don't want to spend a boatload of money. There are sooo many different products to chose from. It can be a bit confusing.
M0JMO
09-15-2010, 08:49 AM
I have great results using an Audio Technica AT-2010 microphone and a Behringer Ultragain Pro Mic 2200 pre-amp.
I feed this through the Modulator Input on the back of my Icom IC-7000, bypassing the internal Mic stage...
My audio reports are now always positive (finally!)
Best part is that the Mic, Pre-Amp, cables, Pop Filter and Desk Stand (all new) were cheaper than a HEIL Pro Set!
W0UZR
09-15-2010, 04:20 PM
Ok, the 7000 Icom had about the best outgoing audio I ever heard on a ham radio. What you do now is go to your music store and pick up a Berringer Equalizer that is about the size of a pack of cigarrettes and it's suppose to go between a flat top or an electric guitar and an amplifier. It's yellow with a foot switch on it. It's a 7 band equalizer. That's what I have on my RE-20 Electrovoice microphone and it works great. People don't know I don'th have a compressor, a Pre Amp, or any of that stuff because I am using the compressor that is on the radio and it works very well.
I have the Kenwood 950 that I'm using here. Your 7000 will have wonderful sound since it's breaking all the rules on sounding good as it is being an Icom which usually needs an extra transformer with the mic in order to work. Most mics won't just work on Icoms. So get that little equilizer and set the bass very low to start with, and the last 3 slides on the right high and monkey around and you should get it pretty good.
M0JMO
09-15-2010, 04:41 PM
The Behringer Ultragain Pro has a parametric EQ on it already, which I monkeyed with initially to get a good sound and now I don't touch it :D
The only thing that plugs into the microphone socket on my 7000 is my Heil PTT footswitch ;)
G4LNA
09-15-2010, 06:25 PM
I used to use a Reslo ribbon mic, it was one of the directional mics as pictured on this site
http://vintagewirelesslondon.co.uk/Reslo.html
The problems I had with it were the output from it was very low indeed, so it need a lot of pre-amplification for any useful output. The proximity effect on them is very pronounced, close speaking results in a very bassy signal. Poping sounds were evident if you were not careful. The ribbon element can easily get damaged if you are not careful.
I still have the mic, but I just keep it as a curio now, I use a Qmic from Samson which is far better to use, very robust and high enough quality to give very good audio results without costing an arm and a leg.
KI6USW
09-15-2010, 06:44 PM
Some things to consider about mics:
Dynamic mics, ribbon mics, and even low-end condenser mics can be prone to having too much 'color' in the midrange freq's. Higher end condenser mics have a ruler-flat freq response. It is easier to add/boost a particular freq range with an EQ on a mic with a flat response - than to try to eliminate a poor freq response the same way on a mic that has too much midrange 'color'.
A single 'cardioid' type mic would be preferred. Either a figure '8' or omnidirectional-type mic would pick up far too much background noise/sound in your broadcast audio. Steer clear of them; as they will just complicate matters.
All mics will have a 'proximity effect'. That is; the closer you speak into a mic - the more bass response you will have. A simple/cheap mic pop screen filter will work wonders to even out sound pressure near the mic.
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musician's-Gear-Double-Pop-Filter-?sku=483280
It is a low-tech device that will work hi-tech quality...
The EV RE series had special construction to elminate as much as possible, the "Proximity Effect". One of the bad things about a ribbon mic is that if you work one too close, you stand a good chance of blowing out the ribbon! As was mentioned earlier, sound pressure alone is enough to cause a ribbon to be damaged, but a good "P-pop" from someone getting too close to the element can actually rupture it ! That, obviously would not be a good thing !
Once upon a time, a blown microphone could be sent to RCA to have the ribbon replaced. I really suspect that that is no longer an option !
W6SSP
09-18-2010, 03:02 PM
This summer I have been restoring an old AM transmitter and
am planning to use a vintage ribbon mic with it. The mic I have
is quite old and none of the big microphone collectors have been
able to identify it, so I have no idea how this will work out.
The mic will be driving a Western Electric 22D broadcast mic mixer
which I've been told will work well with these mics.
Hoping to keep everything original for the period (1940's) but if
needed I'll use a modern equalizer.
Steve
Once upon a time, a blown microphone could be sent to RCA to have the ribbon replaced. I really suspect that that is no longer an option
Jim,
Jon R. Sank was the designer of some of the last and best of RCA's ribbon microphones, including the BK-11 and the BK-10A, as well as the BK-12 dynamic, and was also in charge of production of the full range of RCA ribbon, dynamic and condenser microphones for 1958 to 1971.
He passed on much of his knowledge to his son, Steve Sank, who now carries on his father's legacy. He does perform repair and restoration services for a variety of RCA microphones.
http://www.thuntek.net/~bk11/bk11.htm
Pro Audio Heaven sells some of these microphones (already restored).
The prices are NOT in the radio amateur's price range ---
but for some commercial broadcasters it was the price for a one-minute political ad !!
http://proaudioheaven.com/fr_home.cfm
BTW -- Check out Silvia Classics -- a Santa Cruz, CA operation
The photo of his microphone collection brings back MANY memories from 1960s and 1970s
when many of those classic 1930s radio studios were being replaced (torn out) by the
solid-state "modern" studios.
http://www.silviaclassics.com/company/
Museum quality and operational restorations
http://www.silviaclassics.com/services/
I think you need one of these Art Deco studio warning lights at your radio room!
http://www.silviaclassics.com/studiowarninglights/
w9gb
The lights, over $300 ! ! ! I think I will have to pass, Greg. I wonder how much "The Pickers" could pick up one of those originals for?
At our studios in Chicago, I believe I remember that WMBI had that style of light above the doors on the entrance to the sound lock. But in the outlying station that I first started working for ( WDLM in E. Moline ) we had something that looked like a porch wall light with a red bulb inside, and the "On The Air" words in a stencil on the glass . Quite a step down, but did the job!
At our Chicago studios, we had a LOT of 44s and 77 microphones. In our studio in E. Moline we had a 77DX and a little microphone we called the "44 -Junior". I am not really sure what the official name of the mic was, but I do remember it was an RCA ribbon, but smaller than the 44 by a good bit. Nice sound, and since it had bi-directional pickup, we used it at an interviewing table. The host would sit on one side, and the guest on the other, each facing into one side of the mic. It worked GREAT !
ND4JS
09-26-2010, 03:00 PM
Using the old style microphones isn't always about improving sound quality. Sometimes it is just fun to transmit audio coming from a nostalgia promoting piece of equipment.
I love their look and presence in my shack. I dislike the modern "plastic" microphones. Just me, 73 KC4PHR J
CHRISTIAN21
09-28-2010, 06:04 AM
Yes my friend i too dislike all that stuff..
but on the other websites we can buy other types of microfones..
audio video cables (http://www.discountcablestore.com/)
CHRISTIAN21
09-28-2010, 06:09 AM
The mic I have
is quite old and none of the big microphone collectors have been
able to identify it, so I have no idea how this will work out.
Hoping to keep everything original for the period (1940's) but if
needed I'll use a modern equalizer.
audio video cables (http://www.discountcablestore.com/)
Using the old style microphones isn't always about improving sound quality. Sometimes it is just fun to transmit audio coming from a nostalgia promoting piece of equipment.
I love their look and presence in my shack. I dislike the modern "plastic" microphones. Just me, 73 KC4PHR J
Well, you have a point there. I have an old "Salt Shaker" style microphone sitting around here. It has an aluminum diaphram that is about an inch and a half across. Big thing!
The only problem is, this particular mic doesn't have any response above about 2Khz ! It is a very mello sounding mic, but you can hardly understand what a person is saying with the thing.
Oh well, so much for SOME vintage microphones !
