LISTENING BEFORE TRANSMITTING

[wd0bc]

Recently I have been trying to reinthuse myself with ham radio.

Upon installing a mobile rig in my camping vehicle I have noticed that the band is full of "orerators" that aparently do not own a receiver.

I have noticed that on CW I will hear "QRL" on two QSO's working within two or three KC's.

On phone I heard a pileup for a South African station and people were calling when the contacted station was passing information and when the South African was #calling #a station that he had heard.

PEOPLE if you want to act like CB'RS go back to that band.

Read the basic operating book and use it.

RULE OF THUMB, "LISTEN.LISTEN and LISTEN SOME MORE!!!!!!"

Ham radio can be the most enjoyable hobby in the world but if we don't clean up our act it is going the way ot eleven meters, just a LARGE WASTELAND of killowats! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[ad5td]

Since I got my General, I have spent a heck of a lot more time listening than transmitting. I want to avoid the pitfalls of poor operation that have seemed to befall a lot of others. Take your turn, there is time for all.

[kd5icr]

Thats all I do is listen of course I dont have a ticket for HF but I can listen.I tend to agree that it can be a mess at times But what can be done about it? Nothing I would bet.Every one wants that DX station in the log so as long as the bands are open it is going to be a fact of life.Heck I know that when I get my upgade I will be in the mix myself http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Till then i'll be lurking around http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Due to the nature of the medium, and propagation, it is possible that you hear stations that the other transmitter does not. Happens all the time. I might think a channel is clear to use while at some other location it seems to be occupied. TOM K8ERV

[W5KRM]

Old topic. Nothing new here.

[K3ESE]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wd0bcx @ June 05 2003,11:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Recently I have been trying to reinthuse myself with ham radio.

Upon installing a mobile rig in my camping vehicle I have noticed that the band is full of &quot;orerators&quot; that aparently do not own a receiver.

I have noticed that on CW I will hear &quot;QRL&quot; on two QSO's working within two or three KC's.

On phone I heard a pileup for a South African station and people were calling when the contacted station was passing information and when the South African was #calling #a station that he had heard.

PEOPLE if you want to act like CB'RS go back to that band.

Read the basic operating book and use it.

RULE OF THUMB, &quot;LISTEN.LISTEN and LISTEN SOME MORE!!!!!!&quot;

Ham radio can be the most enjoyable hobby in the world but if we don't clean up our act it is going the way ot eleven meters, just a LARGE WASTELAND of killowats! :angry:[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have noticed that on CW I will hear &quot;QRL&quot; on two QSO's working within two or three KC's.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I operate CW quite a bit. CW bandwidth being much narrower than SSB, a number of happy QSOs can co-exist in a 3kW bandwidth! No problem there, that I can see. Also, I operate QRP, and a QRO op may not hear a QSO that's QRP-QRP, and call QRL? about 3-500 Hz away, which is very courteous. If it's my QSO, or a net or contest, I'll often move a little to zero beat the QRL?, and say QRL TU E E, and he will generally move.

[K9STH]

Using your normal SSB filter for working CW isn't the best and that is why you may experience interference from another QSO within 2 KHz, or so. If you are using a CW filter, that is usually in the 400 to 500 Hz range, you will not even know that another station is 400 Hz away from you because when the received signal is &quot;centered&quot; in the passband of the filter, the other station is way outside of that passband.

Frankly, when things get really tough, I can always switch in my Collins 200 Hz filter and everything disappears except the station that I am trying to work. However, the filter tends to &quot;ring&quot; and isn't comfortable to use all the time although using the variable BFO instead of the crystal controlled BFO on my 75S-3A does make things easier.

As for interferring on SSB: Propagation is such that several stations can be working on the same approximate frequency and not hear the other QSOs on the frequency. However, someone else can certainly be in a position where they hear two, or more, of the stations at the same time. This has nothing to do with courtesy, but is just a fact of amateur radio and propagation. Also, the &quot;skip&quot; can change and what was a clear frequency for quite some time will then be crowded with several signals, all of which were operating on a clear frequency just moments before. Again, this is just the &quot;facts of life&quot; where propagation is concerned.

The higher the frequency the more active the propagation is. I have been working a stateside station on 10 meters and suddenly that station drops out and there is a VK or ZL (Australian or New Zealand) station coming through. I definitely don't get mad. I just accept the band for what it is. The same thing happens on the other bands. Even on 160, 80, and 40 meters the propagation can suddenly change and what was a clear frequency suddenly becomes quite crowded.

Glen, K9STH

[KD5VHF]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kd5icr @ June 09 2003,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I tend to agree that it can be a mess at times But what can be done about it? Nothing I would bet.Every one wants that DX station in the log so as long as the bands are open it is going to be a fact of life.Heck I know that when I get my upgade I will be in the mix myself http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Till then i'll be lurking around http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Do away with the &quot;contest&quot; dxcc etc. and most of this would stop. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif since i got my GENERAL licence in February 2003 I have done a whole LOT of listening, ...you get to hear other folks ask the questions YOU want to ask, you get to hear the &quot; chuckles &quot; from the folks that are talking at the time, and most of all.. you get to use the old phrase&quot; it is better to be QUIET and thought a fool, than to SPEAK up and remove all doubt &quot;. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But seriously, listening does have its rewards, none of which shall be mentioned here...just because the radio is turned on does NOT mean that the transmitter is being used.... whether on amateur frequencies or cb channels !! I kinda like the phrase &quot; listening is free, transmitter operation is OPTIONAL &quot; { of course now some one will speak of listening to cell phone conversations on 800 mhz not being free, but go ahead and get technical }...life is great !! (keep the code but sont ask why)...kd4amg http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KC8QMU]

I think while propagation does play a role in some instances, most of the problem is not the fact that they don't listen, but that they either don't understand what the concept of a 3kc. passband is, don't care about causing QRM to anyone else, or the greed factor during the contests. I have had many heated exchanges with those who knew darn well what they were doing, but since it was a contest (and probably the only time some operate is during contests), they thought that they had a god given right to fire up 1-2 kc. away from an established QSO that I was in. Funny, 15m is usually such a well mannered, friendly place to operate during the week. I have noticed the propagation factor the most on 75m, where as the night wears on sometimes the band starts to go longer, and a qso appears right by your chosen frequency. This is no big deal, if both parties move half way it usually clears it right up. But the arrogance and ignorance of some operators, be they contesters, ragchewers or whatever has to stop. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[K9STH]

VHF:

Doing away with contests, DXCC, awards, nets, specialized modes, etc., and you can put all of HF operating onto 160 meters (200 KHz wide) with plenty of room to spare!

Also, during contests, the operator with 100 watts and a G5RV normally won't be heard at all through the noise. It is not that the majority of contest operators are being inconsiderate, but that the weaker signals just don't &quot;cut the mustard&quot; with all of the activity.

Glen, K9STH

[KC8QMU]

Also, during contests, the operator with 100 watts and a G5RV normally won't be heard at all through the noise. It is not that the majority of contest operators are being inconsiderate, but that the weaker signals just don't &quot;cut the mustard&quot; with all of the activity.


Glen, while I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. I don't use a G5RV, but I am one of those 100W stations. If all the contests are only going to be about who has the most money and who can blow who off of the air, whats the point? What does it really prove? I realize many contesters are not like this, but if one has this attitude they don't need to bother with amateur radio, they could do the very same thing on CB channel 6. It is deliberate interference, plain and simple, and in my humble opinion does not have a place in Ham radio. Ther are many instances that my 100W signal is greater than somebody else's at a given point, but that doesn't give me the right to deliberately transmit over top of them just because I can. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[kd5icr]

Contesting will never go away. It is a fact of life every weekend there is something going on. But if what everyone says here is true there is all kinds of room in the HF bands.
Why not use one of them???
If someone calls CQ to you cant you tell them you are not a part of any contest? and just go on about you ragchew??
What the heck some people just live to contest and no one will stop them. Just move off to another freq simple huh?
Just relax this is a hobby right?

Bill

[KC8QMU]

Bill,

Why should I and all the other stations I am in QSO with have to QSY every couple of minutes during a contest? Why should I have to do this for them when they are the offenders? On the other hand, I have had stations politely come into the QSO, make a few exchanges and ask for an exchange for the contest. No problem, I give them a contact #1 or whatever. That's fine. I enjoy talking to anyone that I can. And these incidents have been on 15m, one of the more &quot;spacious&quot; hf bands. When you upgrade your license and start operating on the bands I am sure you will see my point. It just gets old.

[K9STH]

QMU:

100 watts with a DECENT antenna will do very well in all contests. In fact, most contests have a category for the medium powered station. But, there are a large number of amateurs out there who are not running a decent antenna. Some cannot because of deed restrictions, some don't want to bother. Cost is not really a factor because you can build decent antennas for very little cost.

Again, there are a very few contesters, as are there a very few non-contesters, who don't pay any attention and cause problems. But, the vast majority are not out to cause problems. However, for example, if a DX station is working the same frequency that you are using, and often you are not hearing that station due to propagation, you will hear many of the stations that are calling the DX. Usually, the DX is stronger at their location due to beam headings, etc.

Also, most contests do not take in all of the band. Usually, the high end of each SSB band is relatively clear of contest activity. If you are not participating in the contest, then you will usually have a much clearer frequency at the high end. The same thing is true for CW. Many amateurs have their favorite frequency and won't change their dial come &quot;hell or high water&quot;! They are the ones who try to work the same stations day in and day out and won't change frequency no matter what the activity level.

As for the 100 watt station in a contest: I expect that about 75 percent of the stations participating are running in this category. If they have a decent antenna, then they usually don't have that much problem working the contest. If they don't have a good antenna, they can be running a lot more power and still not be making many contacts.

I don't know if you have ever had a &quot;JA&quot; run on 15 meters. The Japanese have a class of license that allows low power SSB operation on 15. What happens is that there are literally hundreds of these low power stations calling along with those running higher power. These stations call again, and again, and again, hoping that they will eventually work you. Then, one signal will suddenly &quot;pop up&quot; and you will get his call. You then work him. Now, the pileup gets twice as bad since the JA stations know that you are working one of the low power stations. The same thing happens again, one station will suddenly &quot;pop up&quot; and you work him. This can go on for hours and is a primary way of gaining a lot of points during the contest. Of course you also get 3 QSL cards for the contact. One sent within an hour of working you, then another sent in about a week &quot;just in case you didn't get the first one&quot;. Then, after you send the JA your card you will get a 3rd one thanking you for the QSL card.

Well, the same thing is true of the 100 watts stateside stations. One will suddenly &quot;pop out&quot; and that station works the DX, or whatever. Then the same thing happens again. But, all of the 100 watt stations calling adds to the noise level at the other end. The fact that all of these stations are calling basically covers up the station that is trying to have a ragchew on the same frequency. 99 percent of the time the other stations don't have a clue as to the fact that there is someone trying to have a ragchew on the frequency. All of the stations calling and working the contest have elevated the effective noise level so that it is virtually impossible to even tell that there is someone who is trying to use the frequency for non-contest operation.

I don't work that many contests these days. But, in the past, I have done quite well in all sorts of contests from DX to VHF. The best that I have done is to take all of North America all band in the Russian DX contest one year. I have taken my call area, placed in the top 10 stations in the contest, etc., in contests like the WAZ, WPX, ARRL DX, etc., on both CW and SSB. I don't doubt that at sometime during these contests that I have QRMed someone trying to ragchew. However, I never heard them! The ambient noise level during most contests is several &quot;S&quot; units above what the true noise level of the band is without all of the activity. That, unfortunately, is a &quot;fact of life&quot;. The more the activity the more &quot;noise&quot;. This is just one of the things that goes along with high activity.

There are those operators who live for contests. There are those who hate contests with all their might. Frankly, there is room for both. But, those people who have transmitters that haven't been moved from a particular frequency so long that the dial is rusted in place, are going to have to work with those who are operating the contests. No one owns any frequency! A frequency is open to all on a first come first served basis. Now, except for those operators who are working a contest most people operate for a little while and then go do something else. A while later they may come back.

Well, there is a pretty good chance that the contest operator is going to have been operating on a particular frequency for a long time. Due to propagation you may not have heard the station. But, they have been operating. Thus, on a first come first served basis the contest station probably has &quot;squatter's rights&quot; to the frequency even though you didn't have any idea that he/she was even on the air.

As I said before, usually the high end of every band is relatively clear of contest activity. With discretion being the better part of valor, why not move up to that end of the band and work other stations that have no intention of working the contest.

From the QSO numbers given out during major contests, there are many thousands of amateurs operating the contest. Among these thousands will be a very few who don't give a hoot about anything except making contacts. But, the vast majority are out there to have fun and do not intentionally cause problems.

Glen, K9STH

[N0WVA]

The VERY FIRST thing a good operator does is listen for ongoing communications. Its a lid indeed whos priority is transmitting without making SURE he is not interfering. This even goes for contestors. I cut them no slack at all when they get so worked up into a calling frenzy that they creep all over the bands without being as considerate as they would be any other time. A contest is no excuse to flap your trap over someone else. Hats off to the good contestors who always put the other ham first by listening.

[kd5icr]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC8QMU @ June 09 2003,18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bill,

#Why should I and all the other stations I am in QSO with have to QSY every couple of minutes during a contest? #Why should I have to do this for them when they are the offenders? #On the other hand, I have had stations politely come into the QSO, make a few exchanges and ask for an exchange for the contest. #No problem, I give them a contact #1 or whatever. #That's fine. #I enjoy talking to anyone that I can. #And these incidents have been on 15m, one of the more &quot;spacious&quot; hf bands. #When you upgrade your license and start operating on the bands I am sure you will see my point. #It just gets old.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I bet it does get old. I listen all the time,that way when I do upgrade I will at least have a heads up on operating.
I am not saying you have to QSY every time. I mean you could ignore them if you wish , you know act like you don't hear them. I have had the opertunity to use HF on another hams rig, so I do know the head ache that can be had. But as I said contesting is here to stay. We as hams are just going to have to deal with it. Thats all I am saying. I work hard on learning CW for just that reason I am willing to deal with it as part of it.
So yes I understand were you are coming from. So shy not roll with it? Thats all I am asking.
73.
Bill http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KC8QMU]

Glen,


Actually, where a few of us hang out is at the top of the band. I realize that conditions shift, but when all of the sudden the ultra-hyper contester shows up one kc away, its obvious. It's even more obvious when he has the you know what to get an attitude because you are operating during a contest but are not involved in it. And it's not like its an occasional thing, it gets to be quite routine. I have no problem with moving the VFO if I come to use the frequency, listen, and realize that if I operate there I am in someone else's passband, but maybe I am foolish enough to expect that courtesy to be returned. As I said, I realize that on any given band at any time conditions are changing somewhere, but often it is quite obvious that is a case of arrogance. I tried contesting. I was dissapointed because it all seems to turn into a pileup and a boring routine. I have learned far more about radio and electronics by ragchewing and getting to know people a bit over the air than I would have exchanging &quot;5X9 QRZ&quot; thousands of times in a row. Not that necessarily theres anything wrong with that, but I would rather get more out of this hobby. Now, if it is rare DX, I might try awhile, but again, if I my purpose was to try to overpower everyone else I would never have become a ham. It amazes me how many guys will sit there and repeat their call continuously so they hopefully will blot out anyone else. They often do this to the degree that the dx station is answering somebody, and they still haven't shut up. To me, I might as well be listening to CB channel 6. It's the same mentality. I realize most are not like this, but sometimes you just gotta call them as you see (or hear) them. But the higher bands haven't been all that great lately, 15 has not been conducive for the coast to coast type of QSOs we have, and I'm on a different shift at work anyway. One good thing about 75m, you never seem to have many contesters in the phone band! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[KC8QMU]

Bill,


# I understand that contesting is here to stay, and that's fine with me. #I have no problem with the concept at all, I even tried it a couple of times thinking I might see what it's about. #If I come on to a frequency, I listen for a bit. #I don't knowingly transmit in somebody else's passband. #The thing is, many of the contesters can run enough filtering to the point where they can be in your passband but not hear you. #They are not worried about anyone else's QSO, even if they were there first, only themselves and their &quot;contest rate&quot;; and when they are that close with a humungous signal and you can't hear the party that you are in QSO with, it's impossible to ignore them. #So you see, the common 3kc courtesy gets thrown out the window on account of their greed. #I have decent equipment, but not some of the big money stations that they have. #Does that make me inferior to them? #In their eyes it seems to. #But maybe if operators like you and I operate with common courtesy and stick to our guns we can alleviate some of this. #Many people enjoy contesting and I don't mean to sound like I am against them, but the arrogance has to stop. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[KB1GYQ]

Watch what happens to contesting in the future...

1) we already have DX spotting via packet &amp; internet
2) we have CW encode/decode via computer (and all other digital modes)
3) we already have auto-keyers for contest CQ's etc
4) it is not a far jump for a computer controlled rig to scan looking for a contest CQ
5) computers are already used to make the log entry and sometimes to send the contest exchange and entry the other side ontop the spotting net
6) it is again not a large step to have that be completely automatic, using machine decoding instead of a person typing in the other side's call, class and location
7) result:: contesting will be completely &quot;plug and sleep&quot;. just set the antennas up, plug in the radio and computer, start it up, then sit back and watch the points add up -- real fun, nu?

[KD7WHQ]

Those who cheat in contest, only cheat themselves, in my mind.
The technology may be there, but I don't think too many will take advantage of it to that extent.
Kind of like the shoots the Mauser Shooting Association holds.
Nobody is watching to make sure that 100 yard target is being shot at that distance, but if not, the only one being cheated is you.

73

Will

[KB1GYQ]

If the technology is available to all willing to pay, it is not cheating; otherwise DSP's, QRO, autokeyers, etc should be 'illegal'.

[KD7WHQ]

The topic at issue was complete automation for the sole purpose of contesting.

73

[KB1GYQ]

For modes that are currently encoded/decoded via computer, which are legal for contests, there isn't much differance now except for a little typing, or should I say &quot;cut and paste&quot;, and spinning the VFO seeking other signals. Not much of a contest, yet those contacts score double what a phone contact does. On CW you can use DSP to wade though the pileup, but phone take skill.

[aside: I have the greatest respect for the old CW ops who can copy several QSO's at once, while filtering out QSN/M by ear! DSP is cheating in my opinion]

[w3sy]

Hi KB1GYQ,

Very interesting point you make about contest automation. I do like computerized logging, and hope never to have to go back to paper logging and duping again ---- but....

I also have a hard time accepting computerized CW contesting. With today's technology, a CW op in a contest sits at the computer keyboard, hits a single key to call CQ, types in the call of the other station, hits another key to automatically send the exchange, types in the info from the other station, then hits a key to call CQ or QRZ. Very tidy.

For me, half the fun of CW contests was pounding away with the bug or keyer and showing your sending skill. Now, it's hard to be competitive in many CW contests unless you use software that sends your exchange for you. Why is that? For one thing, the computer sends your exchange &quot;error free.&quot; There's no &quot;di-dit di-dit&quot; and repeating. There are no busted QSO's because YOU sent your own exchange wrong. And with the automated sending, there's MUCH less operator fatigue So there are many strategic advantages to keyboarding your way through a CW contest, but (in my opinion) a lot of the challenge and fun is lost.

One accomplished contester told me he estimated that using the computer to generate and send his CW exchange was worth about 200 more contacts in the November Sweepstakes, and I believe that.

I'll have to decide in the future if I want to go over to the Dark Side of computer CW or keep dealing with <span style='color:red'>PADDLE FATIGUE!!</span>

Haw...
Out.