Way Over Priced Vintage Materials

[AB9DB]

W0NKL has been running a banner ad on QRZ for his antique radio business. Check out his literature prices. I own most of those items and have picked them up within the past two years. He asks $175 for a 1933 ARRL handbook. I have one in identical condition and paid $25 for it at the antique mall on IL 51 in Clinton, IL (near where I used to live, in case anyone thinks I'm kidding and wants chapter and verse.)

I own most of the rest of the ARRL handbooks he's selling, and a few he isn't. All cost me between $3 and $15 from old book dealers, antique stores and hamfests. I picked up 1942, 44, 45 and 1950 in Westby, a small town down the road from me on the way to LaCrosse, WI, for $3 apiece the first week of last December. I wasn't even looking hard. It was late in the afternoon, I was on my way home and I stopped at the antique store I'd driven past a number of times to scan their old books.

Check his prices on old QSTs. $40 an issue? Ya gotta be kidding! The going price in most places is $5-7 an issue even back into the 20s - after 1923. As a suggestion, before buying old QSTs, buy QST on CDROM from the ARRL for the years you're interested in, read and assure yourself you actually need to own the paper issue. If you're collecting with an eye toward earning a return on your purchase, it's unlikely you'll recoup your purchase price in this life time, at the above prices, unless you're a teenager and hold them until late middle age. If you're creating a local museum, scout around before busting your budget on these prices.

To make a supportive comment, he mentions some of the later 40s handbooks have some yellowed pages. There was a heck of a paper shortage during and shortly after World War II. Porous, nearly news-grade paper was used by the ARRL so they could keep the page count up and publish all they felt needed saying on various topics. The ARRL bound in sections that were unchanged that had been printed on the old paper. Consequently, it's easy to see the changed and unchanged "signatures," as the sections are called, in those handbooks. Nothing you can do about it. It's simply how that kind of paper ages.

As for parts, I've got several boxes and a work bench loaded with NOS original parts in original boxes that I'm building into older equipment to get a feel for what was possible at the time. National Type A, B, BN, K, O and type N dials haven't cost me over $20 a piece from old parts retailers, hams and dealers at hamfests, and often are nearer $15. Check his statospheric prices.

About the only value in his prices is that they represent the level of price seen in the frenzy bidding that occassionally occurs on ebay. Vintage amateur radio on ebay is often the equivalent of the Dutch tulip market or the dot com ponzo scheme.

The market will decide. However, hams don't generally have a reputation for taking advantage of each other. Those who are new to the collecting side of our hobby might find these insights useful.

Your bucks.

David Tancig
AB9DB

[K9STH]

Unfortunately, or fortunately, as one sees it, people in the United States are free to ask whatever they want for an item. If the free market will handle the price, then the items will sell. If the prices are too high, then the item won't sell. If the prices are low, they will sell in a hurry.

I know of items that have been bought for a song and resold the next day for more than 20 times the price. I know of items that have been bought at a price and the person who bought it couldn't get 1/10th the price. It all depends on the market.

If someone is charging more than the market will handle, then that person will not stay in business very long. What seems "fair" to one person may certainly be "unfair" to another. There is nothing that says that you have to purchase the items from any certain person unless no one else has them. Then, there is the law of "supply and demand". If the supply is small and the demand is great, then the price is going to be high. If the supply is great and the demand is small, then the price is going to be low.

Just because you got a certain item at a certain price doesn't mean that everyone can find the same thing at the same price.

I really don't know the person involved, so I don't have any personal stake in things. But, if you can find things for a good price, then certainly buy them. However, if you can't find what you are looking for except a single source, then be prepared to pay a premium.

Glen, K9STH

[WB2WIK]

It's evident that some people never get off their butts, and spend most of their time in front of a computer monitor; and for those, eBay and similar prices seem just fine.

For those of us who actually walk the Swap Meets, we know better.

If I had no conscience, I'd spend my time each weekend buying stuff at the Swap Meets and then selling it on eBay for a lot more. Maybe, one day I'll do that. But not now, I'm having too much fun enjoying life. If I find a good deal on ham items at a Swap Meet, I'll let local hams know and usually sell the stuff for exactly what I paid for it if someone locally can use it.

Then, I've seen some at Swap Meets buy an item at one table, move it two tables over, and sell that item for twice as much, five minutes later. As Glen said, in America, we can do that!

WB2WIK/6

[KD7KOY]

Well...one can ask any price they wish. Getting it another story.
I suspect even on Ebay alot of the 'bidding wars' end up as non payers. Further I think you will find alot of the 'inflated' pricing of Ebay are hams themselves either selling or bidding the item up.
One of the 'rolling on floor' comments I love is "I have'nt plugged it in' and it turns out to be a ham.
I KNOW if my gear works or not..because..er..I'm a ham..
So I think the 'inflated pricing' is mostly coming from the ham community and not 'hawkers' who have always looked for a quick buck.
Another problem I've noticed with 'vintage' gear is people looking for 'pristine' or 'working' order. Restoration of old gear is both fun and challedgeing and can be had for very little in most cases. However, many simply do not wish to learn and pay more for work someone else did.
I got an old BC-348 on the air. Was literally thrown in the dump. Sandblasting, painting and rewiring and she is humming along. Going to be mated with the Globe Scout, another 'basket case' needing work.
My Cost: Nothing...
Ebay: $90.00-250.00 I have seen them.
As far as knobs, again check out dumps, electronic shops etc. Alot have stuff 'shelved' and you can haul it away. 'Scavenge' parts from them and chuck the rest if not needed. I got alot of older knobs from 'junk'..
Capitalism, at it's best or worse depending on your perspective.

This reminds me of a cartoon, many years ago. A kid is selling lemonade at the typical stand. Price is $1,000,000. Another kid comes by and says "you won't sell many at that price". The seller says "But I only have to sell one!". TOM K8ERV

[WA7KKP]

I agree, and in a previous post I outlined some of the ridiculous prices I've encountered on the simplest of ham gear. Frankly stated, age does not make a 40 year old boatanchor worth more bucks than a new Japanese rig, with warranty.

I think there are scalpers out there who do follow the E-greed listings, and think they can get what the previous guy got. Yes, there are market considerations, but this kind of scalping gives a lot of newcomers the opionion that ham radio is an expensive hobby. Which as most of us know is NOT true. At least not the way I practice the art.

I could do as they do, pick up a vintage Johnson rig and do a rebuild on it and charge appropriately for my time and materials, but I think that should be left up to the prospective owner. If he wants a perfect 10, he should be investing in artwork, not Art Collins work. Or Edgar Johnson's, or Bill Halligan's.

Vintage gear should be used, not just put on a shelf and admired. Owning a vintage car is nice, but it is more fun taking that 60's Mustang out for a Sunday drive with the top down. Same with ham gear.

Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP
St. Joseph, MO

[N0FFA]

Lets see..... what will make this country great? How 'bout:

a. A graduated income tax
b. State run education
c. Swap meet price controls

Ahhhhhhhh, I feel better already!

Don't forget what Murphy sez: It is morally wrong to not seperate a fool from his money.

[N0FFA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ May 31 2003,03:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, this has got to be one of the dumbest postings I've ever seen!

Hey, if someone's asking too much money, don't buy! #Is it really any harder than that?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No, it isn't harder than that! It's just that simple.

[K3UD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KC9ANQ @ May 31 2003,08:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">DO I FEEL GUILTY FOR SELLING OR BUYING AT THOSE PRICES?

NOT ONE BIT, ANYONE COULD HAVE BOUGHT THEM.

right place right time[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
As has been posted many times, it is always good for a ham to have an up to date value of his or her equipment and a name and phone number of a trusted ham who will dispose of the equipment at what they are worth or close to it in the event the spouse needs to sell it due to death or infirmity, In many cases the spouse has no idea of what things are really worth and, as in the above post, let it go for a lot less than it is worth.

Bargains are great to come across but I personally have a problem taking advantage of other peoples personal misfortune.

73
George
K3UD

[KA8NCR]

So on one hand we have a guy complaining that a merchant is asking premium prices, and yet on Ebay I routinely see people paying ridiculous prices in bidding wars.

I am of the opinion that the price should be negotiated. Of course the seller will be happy to get their asking price. But more often than not, they'll be open to negotiations which usually end up much more along current market pricing.

[K9STH]

Well, there was a case not involved in amateur radio circles, but in the Civil War area, about buying for &quot;pennies&quot; and selling for many dollars.

A descendent of General George Pickett had many of his personal items and went to one of the appraisers on the US version of Antique's Road Show to find out the value. That person said the artifacts were worth a certain value and then purchased them. A few weeks later they were sold for about 20 times that value. The descendent found out and took the appraiser to court.

In the courtroom the appraiser said that he had no legal obligation to give any value to the equipment, that it was just his &quot;opinion&quot;. Well, no criminal charges were levied against the appraiser but he did have to &quot;fork over&quot; everything that he got for the items that had been sold, have to return what hadn't been sold, had to pay all legal costs, and lost his job with the TV show.

It is not technically illegal in most areas to pay a pittance for equipment from a widow or an estate. But, at least in my opinion, it is morally wrong. Yes, someone in business is entitled to a legitimate profit. But, to pay 5 cents for an item and know that it will sell for a dollar is morally wrong! If the person selling the equipment knows what it is worth but just doesn't want to bother with selling it for that amount, then fine. However, the vast majority of people who sell estates don't have any idea as to what equipment is worth.

Before I underwent open heart surgery in January I lay in the hospital bed and made a list of everything that I could think of in terms of amateur radio equipment. I put an &quot;average&quot; value on it, a price to ask, and a minumum amount to take for it. I also asked a close friend of mine, whom I definitely trust, to see that the equipment was disposed of properly. I also told my wife certain &quot;friends&quot; who were NOT to &quot;assist&quot; in getting rid of the equipment. Frankly, I know that if those people were involved that she wouldn't get 10 cents on the dollar for what things were worth!

Glen, K9STH

[kd5icr]

#K9STH said:
Yes, someone in business is entitled to a legitimate profit. #But, to pay 5 cents for an item and know that it will sell for a dollar is morally wrong!

How do you figure this is wrong?
Who doing bad on this? I dont see a problem if you buy low and sell high that is how companies make money.
As a has been said dont buy but rest assured someone will get it. If I could get a deal like that I would jump on it in a minute and if I sell it cool, I did want to make a dollar off of it.That would be the case if I sold it.
Whats the big deal? maybe the seller just wanted to get rid of it. I kanw of a woman that sold her husbands stuff she did'nt need the money and said just make an offer,well thats what I did and I walked away with an arm full of gear for :pennines on the dollar.
If you can find a deal jump if not walk away I bet the seller won't care one bit.
My 2 cents.
kd5icr #Bill

[WA2ZDY]

As for dealing with an SK's widow, I can see both sides of this. As one who furnished a home with antiques bought at estate sales, auctions, etc, I can see the benefit to &quot;taking advantage&quot; of folks. Sad but some folks put a price on it, and like the grocery, if the can of beans says &quot;$.59,&quot; I'm not offering a buck. Auctions are &quot;ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances&quot; affairs by nature. If you pay too much at an auction, you have nobody but yourself to blame.

If I croak off and my wife wants to sell my ham gear for pennies on the dollar, that's her business. If some ham sees my stuff at the local flea market and pays the asking price, so much to his benefit.

Here's where the unfair taking advantage of the widow comes in. And this happens just too often. A guy passes, and at the wake, his &quot;buddies&quot; approach the widow and &quot;offer to help her out.&quot; &quot;Mavis, I'll take care of that stuff when you're ready to have it gone.&quot; She's grateful to have a &quot;problem&quot; taken care of and in honesty, she probably hated &quot;that damn ham stuff&quot; anyway.

When she calls the &quot;buddy&quot; he graciously offers her pennies on the dollar, knowing how she feels, or that she is in no emotional state to quibble. THAT is wrong folks. Dead wrong, and any &quot;brother ham&quot; who does that is a rotten scumbag. If the widow says &quot;I want it out, I don't want money and I don't care what it's worth,&quot; then go at it. But that just isn't how it usually goes down.

As for the appraiser mentioned in an earlier post, yes, if that's his publicised job, he is required to be honest about it or be subject to paying damages. If the guy next door gives an opinion, there is no reasonable expectation that he really knows what he's talking about.

You can rip off widows if you want, but you know, you have to see yourself in the mirror every day. And in the end, it all comes out in the wash.

[W8FAX]

I agree it's not cool to rip off SK widow's. A ham should take care of that business long before he goes keel over from coffee and donuts. A feller SHOULD keep an inventory of his more valuable items, and a couple of names of TRUSTED friends to help out in case of his demise.
On the other hand, you get what you get at an auction. On BOTH sides of the fence. I just recently went to an SK auction and saw stuff almost given away. A friend of mine had been called in previously to help inventory a rather large ham estate. He suggested to the folks that a lot of the items would bring a good return if they took the time to either sell them on ebay, or try and find a buyer that would take the whole pile. They were told by a non ham friend that the stuff was worth &quot;thousands of dollars&quot;, so hence ....the auction. It was horrible. They picked the weekend after hamvention (here in Dayton) which was also Memorial day weekend. I don't think there were 20 hams there, and the rest of the crowd was there for antique furniture. 10 cent on the dollar would have been a GOOD return that day. Oh well.
Who's to say what's a fair price. If you pay too much for something, who's fault is that???? The seller??? Yeah....right...........

[K9STH]

CIR:

You didn't read my post that carefully! I said that in the case where the person doing the selling did, indeed, know what the stuff was worth and decided that they didn't want to &quot;fool&quot; with it, then that was perfectly OK.

However, I still stand on my statement that taking advantage of someone in an emotional state wherein they are less apt to make a rational decision that such is immoral. I did not say illegal unless the person purchasing the equipment, like the appraisor from The Antiques Road Show, misuses their professional status which was done in that case.

Again, it is definitely legal and moral for a business to make a reasonable profit. But, to take advantage of a widow, children, etc., of a recently deceased person is NOT morally right although certain individuals do this on an almost daily basis!

I have found that most people who defend doing this on a regular basis tend to be those same people who are doing it on a regular basis! Not all, but a large majority!

Glen, K9STH

[kd5icr]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K9STH @ May 31 2003,17:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CIR:

You didn't read my post that carefully! #I said that in the case where the person doing the selling did, indeed, know what the stuff was worth and decided that they didn't want to &quot;fool&quot; with it, then that was perfectly OK.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yea Glen I understand were you were coming from. I would never my self rip someone.I agree in most cases they are not in the right frame of mind and I do not approve of blood suckers hitting them either.But we can never tell when those types will hit a person when there down.
Oh by the way it's ICR not cir (hehe)
I was not flaming like some do.
No hard feelings?
73
Bill

[K9STH]

ICR:

Sorry about the transposition! I have rheumatoid arthritis and sometimes my fingers get &quot;out of sync&quot; when I am typing.

Unfortunately, I know of a couple of people in the north Texas area who go around looking for very recently deceased amateurs and take action almost before the person is &quot;in the ground&quot;! I don't approve of that at all. One of them has a main business and a very bad reputation in this part of the country (although he still &quot;gets to&quot; the Japanese and a few stateside customers) about taking money for equipment and then not supplying it, etc.

I have been contacted by a few families that had old radios and the like (not amateur radio but antique / vintage stuff) that I didn't even know about how to get the best price for the equipment, parts, etc. Since I have some connections with antique radio collecting organizations I usually try to help the people out. I do explain that most collectors are only going to pay a fair wholesale price, not an elevated retail price and then try to give them an idea as to just what to expect. I do the same thing that I did for my own equipment. That is, give them an &quot;average&quot; price, a somewhat higher &quot;asking price&quot; (usually somewhat near a &quot;retail&quot; price), and a &quot;minimum&quot; low price (don't take less than that). That way they can get at least a fair wholesale price for the equipment. Anything above that is &quot;gravy&quot;!

Glen, K9STH