Frequency "occupation"

[XV2PS]

Yesterday (05.28.03, UTC 15++) on 14,230 Khz, I was calling CQ America (flying over Japan) and already had a QSO.
Suddenly a station began operating a digital mode over my frequency. Only later (some minutes) I got a "this is TV transmission, please QSY", then digital Tx resumed. Later I got something (phone) that might sound like harder wording from that station. I replied "I was on that frequency before you and please, identify yourself". Then his Tx continued and finally ended douzens of minutes later.
During all his Tx, I continued calling CQ and even got a DX contact. Just by principle I continued. I guess I also screwed his transmission.
That idiot should have check whether the frequency was clear before to suddenly intrude right? If before his digital Tx he would ask me to QSY because.... I would have done it with a smile.

So, I would like your opinion on this:

1 Was my attitude correct? Or what better should i have done?
2 Did I really screwed his Tx?
3 Anybody knows this station?


Thanks to clarify for me

73
XV2PS
Pierre

[kd5scg]

You probably didn't screw up his transmission.
14.230 in the US is known as an SSTV calling frequency, I'm pretty sure thatyou didn't know that. I didn't actually hear the QSO, so it is hard for me to judge. Legally, whoever was there first should be allowed to stay there.

[wg7x]

Pierre,

Welcome to the wide-wonderful-world of 20 meters...

14.230 Mhz is generally recognized as a slow-scan #television (SSTV), frequency, however if you were on frequency before the SSTV station, then you had every right to continue.

However... 20 meters is a very territorial band, with every Khz hotly contested over. The SSTV crowd is particularly bad in this regard. They seem to expect a 6 Khz QRM free band centered on 14.230 and woe betide the unknowing operator who strays into the SSTV passband!

I was listening to a QSO on 14.233 one day between a station in Maine and A station in Texas. Neither one was particuarly loud. Both of them were running dipoles and about 100 watts. I watched on my scope as a signal migrated from .230 to .233 to QRM the SSB stations.
This was done with intent to chase off the offending QSO.

SSTV'ers have had almost exclusive use of the .230 frequency for many many years. Most of us avoid it for that reason. But as I mentioned before, if the frequency was clear prior to you beginning your QSO, then normal rules would apply, and a SSTV QSO should not have QRM'ed you. That they did, and continued to QRM you after you indicated the the frequency was in use only shows what type of operators you were dealing with.


Now I'm sure there will be some operators replying who will defend the SSTV point of view, but the fact that SSTV is a non-voice mode operating in the phone section of the band means that the good SSTV operator will listen before transmitting, not just fire up at random, and the poor operator will let fly on top of an existing QSO just to defend their turf.

SSTV'ers what say you?

73 Gary WG7X

[XV2PS]

Hehe, now it is already clearer for me.

No I did not know it was SSTV call frequency in the US, as I am not supposed to know... But what you wrote as "legally" is what I knew. Now, I really have no problem QSY if properly asked. Anyway, thanks for the clarification, I will avoid that frequency, and maybe the station concerned will read this and understand why my attitude.... Actually, he broke the law and did it in an unpleasant manner...

73
XV2PS

[XV2PS]

While saying I was not supposed to know, I went to the few docs I have here.

On the ARRL US amateur bands, 14,230 states CW, phone and image. Maybe another doc specifies.

German Band Plan, 14,230 states sstv, fax and phone.

But on the 2 docs in hand, none specifies 14230 as sstv exclusive....

[WA2ZDY]

No, it's not an exclusive SSTV frequency. The SSTV station did wrong by you. However, there are, as you said, polite ways to ask someone to QSY. That is what the other station should have done.

The only thing I'll say in favour of the SSTV crowd, though not this particular op due to his rudeness, they want 6KHz - and ONLY 6 KHz. As a group, they take up very little of our spectrum. So yes, as a whole, we should try to respect their little piece of the pie. But that does not excuse the attitude of those like Pierre ran into.

SSTV can be a lot of fun. Maybe more of us should try it. I was on SSTV back in the days of the Robot 400. And at that time (1978-79) the Robot 400 was a marvel of digital technology! And that 64K of RAM? Holy begeezuz that was hot stuff, and accounted for most of the $1200 (in 1978 dollars) price. I'm glad I didn't pay for it!


Good luck.

[XV2PS]

Yes, really agree there should be a place for everybody, and 6khz is nothing in the cake. But then, maybe relevant official authorities should also make that place clearly exclusive (which is not the case), and then problems should not arise.

[K9STH]

There is the possibility that the SSTV station actually didn't hear you. Your signal could have been weak enough at his end (for any number of reasons) that he did not know that you were transmitting. However, if he (or she) did hear you, then it is both rude, and technically illegal in the US, for them to delibertly QRM your signal if they had not been using the frequency when you came on.

The least that the SSTV station could have done is to ask you to QSY.

Also, there is the possibility that the SSTV station was already working on the frequency with another SSTV station that you could not hear. Due to the "skip" conditions on 20 meters this is very likely to happen. Since the other station (or even stations, many SSTV stations operate in "round tables") was already occupying the frequency, he (or she) might even consider you as the interloper. Since the frequency has pretty much been accepted world-wide as "the" 20 meter SSTV frequency the other station (or stations) probably just claimed "squatter's rights" and went ahead working their existing SSTV contacts.

If the SSTV station was using a beam, he could have been pointing in a different direction and your signal was "down" at his end although you might have been in a "minor" lobe form his antenna and could hear him fairly well, the signal strength of the station that he was working could have completely covered up your signal.

That is just one of the problems of HF operation. Depending on the quality of the antennas at both ends, the directivity patterns, noise level, etc., often one station can be heard at another location, but that station cannot hear the signal from the location.

You mostly have to "grin and bare it". The vast majority of QRM is unintentional although sometimes someone does try to cause problems. I have been operating in a contest and "running" DX stations and have had a station come on frequency and work me. Then he tries to take over the frequency hoping that the "run" will come to him. In those cases I just "stick to my guns" and keep calling CQ or working the run that I had started. I can run enough power and have an antenna that puts me in the top 10 percent of the signals and thus can usually hold my own. 9 times out of 10, the station who tried to "take" the frequency moves on. In these cases, I was operating on the frequency first and was entitled to keep it.

If the station who called was "rare" DX, then I usually let him have the frequency. But, if he is just "normal" DX, or stateside, who is trying to take the frequency since I was doing very well, I hold my ground. However, if all of the calls start going to the other station, then I move on and find another frequency.

Glen, K9STH

[XV2PS]

Yes Glen, that is an explanation, but I this case, I have a different idea.

I just achieved a double 58 report (in and out) to the US West Coast. So that Dx would know that frequency was busy locally (yes, could skip...). My antenna (LPDA 7el) is quite directional but not as sharp as a classic beam. Theirs probably more. Also according the comments and the "tone" of that SSTV station, I am quite sure I QRMed him. He also came in with a signal of 8. (I know, it means all and nothing).
Also before to sit down and make it comfortable for me to start Tx, I always find a frequency that I feel clear. Before to really Tx, it takes more than a couple of minutes.
Now anyway, Glen, your comment leaves me with doubt and leaves them the benefit of that doubt...

Thanks

[KC8QMU]

I think you have encountered one of the many operators that don't think their "waste" doesn't stink. For anybody in any mode in the voice portion of 20m to think that they have a god given right to 6kc. around them is very arrogant. Unless you interrupted their qso, you had every right to tell them to take a hike. Even though the higher bands haven't been all that great lately, I would recommend calling CQ on 15m instead of 20M. Its a larger band, and a lot less congested to boot. And usually much friendlier. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[XV2PS]

I know 20 meters has a certain reputation.

Well, I never encountered specific problems to that 20 meters band (except QRN).

Maybe main reason is that all these "less nice Hams" (that KC8QMU and others refers to) have quick self satisfaction and are unable to work DX? (i.e. why I never hear them).

Yes, 15 meters is also nice to me but at the right time and right azimuth....

I also often hear people selecting the bands based on the behavior of the people they find on it. In my case, I select the bands based on the propagation (MUF & DX....). I like to go far and if not over 5,000 miles or rare DX, it is already boring.
Now, I can understand that if propagation does not play an important role, people's behavior can be a main criteria... That is life
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[N6HBJ]

XV2PS, legally you were right. But SSTV occupies .230 AND .233 (don't know why no one is mentioning .233 because it is very active with SSTV)

But still, I would have moved off except if he was INTENTIONALY interfering with you, then I say the hell with him.

[XV2PS]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N6HBJ @ May 28 2003,00http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif0)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But still, I would have moved off except if he was INTENTIONALY interfering with you, then I say the hell with him.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yes, I would be the first to move off. Especially if I only CQ.That I am with the law or not. But in this case, I was not going to let the people to eat on my head by that manner. In my first post I mention &quot;attitude&quot;. But think you understand. Anyway, hell is with everybody, especially when you are going to bed and I am still in the office http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Maybe when we issue a liscense, we should also assign that person a frequency, which would be their private property. This would finally solve the frequency fights that have plagued ham radio for years.

All operation would be split-frequency after that, and when the available frequencies are all assigned, new hams could either wait for someone to die, or perhaps bid for the privledge of &quot;timesharing&quot; a frequency with the existing owner...

[ka1ogm]

Generally, I consider that &quot;being first&quot; on any frequency would require one to have been working stations or in qso for several minutes. Propagation, directional antennas, and long transmission times (in this case, for SSTV) can account for one believing a frequency to not be in use, and convince one of that even after having called CQ a couple of times and working some stations.

Even if one has been in qso with one or more stations over the course of a half hour or more, conditions can suddenly change and put another ongoing qso into the picture. The assumption and articulation of an arrogant attitude on the air in these situations by one or both parties is ungentlemanly and denigrates the entire amateur community with these contentious sideshows.

If someone suddenly appears with a rude or arrogant demeanor, claiming &quot;your&quot; frequency is in use, the gentlemanly thing to do is NOT return with the same rudeness and arrogance and fight about it.

There can't be THAT many people who originally got their license in order to make enemies on the air.

Jeff
KA1OGM

[KD7UKT]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka1ogm @ May 30 2003,03:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There can't be THAT many people who originally got their license in order to make enemies on the air.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Jeff,

There aren't... but their antics make it seem like there is a whole regiment of them.

And then there are those that don't intend to do that when they get their license, but either through a swelled ego or simple ignorance of the rules (see the thread on almost getting arrested at RadioShack), manage to make things difficult for others.

[WA7KKP]

I don't remember anywhere there is exclusive use of one frequency by a single ham or group of hams. We have 'gentlemen's agreements' on where certain modes are to be found. DX windows, RTTY/digital modes, ad nauseum.

There's plenty of band and bandwidth, that you don't have to be on a particular frequency at a particular time just to ragchew with your buddy in Sarasota, Florida. We're not stuck with just 40 channels like our vagrant cousin CB.

I remember one night I was listening to the squelch chatter on 29.6 So happens a ham wanted to play around a bit on SSB, and went way UP in the band not to bother anyone. 10 happened to be quite open at the time, and I listened as VE6NS kindly explained to him on SSB that 29.6 was an FM calling channel.

Just be nice, apologize, and QSY.

Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP

[kd5icr]

Would you not blame the problem on propogation? Seems to when I listen ( I dont have a right to use those freqs just yet) I some times think &quot;damn were is everybody&quot; Then a few minutes later it's packed with people.So I would blow it off.
Now if it were to happen over and over then I would think somethings going on.
Am I wrong on this?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Ham It Up
73 Bill kd5icr http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[XV2PS]

Quoted by ka1ogm

&quot;Generally, I consider that &quot;being first&quot; on any frequency would require one to have been working stations or in qso for several minutes&quot;.

Well, it was clearly my case with a US station.

Quoted by ka1ogm

&quot;The assumption and articulation of an arrogant attitude on the air in these situations by one or both parties is ungentlemanly and denigrates the entire amateur community with these contentious sideshows.&quot;

Well, if you know me, I am far from (and allergic to) arrogant people.

Quoted by:WA7KKP

&quot;Just be nice, apologize, and QSY.&quot;

I like gentlemen agreements and will happily follow it. I also do not want to hide behind the rules. Part of it came from my ignorance (yes, I say it). I just had some documents showing &quot;I was allowed&quot;. If asked in a polite way, I would have QSY. But that guy came badly on me, in which case I am not the kind of guy to pull off the trouser. Anyway, I remained polite.

Yes, there could be technical reasons (side lobes, propagations,...), but anyway nothing allowing wordings such as &quot;F...&quot; on the air.

I am always a guy of good willingness but not under all circumstances.... And of course, will not Tx on that frequency anymore with regards to Ham respect.

[KC8QMU]

Just be nice, apologize, and QSY.


Apologize for what? Using a frequency that clearly was empty? It would be wrong to fire up on top of the SSTVer, but this obviously wasn't the case. HE was in the wrong, for illegaly firing up and causing intentional QRM to the existing station on the frequency. This happens in all modes and bands, but seems to happen the most on 20 and 75 meters. But with this guy's arrogant attitude, you should have told the SSTVer to hit the road. And if he didn't, you should have documented it and sent it to Mr. Hollingsworth. Don't let these kinds of people keep you from enjoying your priviledges.

[K9STH]

Again, some people don't understand propagation! You can start out on a completely clear frequency. That is, you don't hear anyone. You ask if the frequency is in use. No one answers. You call CQ. Someone answers and you start a QSO. Meanwhile, the band &quot;shifts&quot; slightly and suddenly you are interferring with one, or even several QSOs. Often the station that starts interferring with you was already in QSO with another station on the same frequency and thus was there first. Due to conditions, that station probably never heard you call CQ. Maybe, if the frequency was clear at his end (not occupied by the station that he/she is working) the station might have heard you, but this is often not the case.

When the station that he/she was working turned it &quot;over&quot; to the interferring station, that station began transmitting. Unfortunately, due to the slightly changed conditions that station suddenly started interferring with you and maybe you started causing him/her problems as well.

Frankly, the United States is a fairly large country in terms of land area. At various times on 20 meters it is most certainly possible that 3, 4, or more, QSOs are going on the approximately the same frequency at any one time. DX may be coming in to a certain part of the country while others can barely work anything. That is just the nature of the band.

To make the &quot;assumption&quot; that the station running SSTV deliberately came on to cause problems is pretty far fetched. Yes, there are a few stations on any mode that cause problems. But, the vast majority of amateurs do not delibertly cause problems. However, if they are already involved in a QSO on a particular frequency, they definitely have no obligation to move unless the frequency in use is being used for true emergency communications. Then, all bets are off and those stations involved in handling the emergency traffic do have &quot;right of way&quot;.

There are certain frequencies that are, due to gentlemen's agreements, used for a specific mode. These frequencies are listed in all sorts of places including several on the Internet. If a station is using one of these modes on one of the gentlemen's agreed frequencies and due to conditions changing starts interferring with someone running a different mode, then convention says that the person running the different mode should gracefully move. There is no &quot;law&quot; that says who should move. But, common sense says that the station using the agreed upon mode should have first &quot;crack&quot; at the frequency.

In the specific case that started this thread, the station was not aware of the gentlemen's agreement on the frequency and he was upset that interference started. But, the chances are that the interference was NOT deliberate and was the result of changing propagation. Unfortunately, changing propagation is just a fact of life on the amateur radio bands! The station that was running the SSTV signal was probably upset that someone came onto the frequency running a different mode. This is also understandable.

Thus, technically no one was at fault. But, I do encourage people to read the various band plans and try to adhere to them whenever possible. You can find one of these lists on the ARRL website at arrl.org to start with.

Glen, K9STH

[XV2PS]

Hi Glen,

Of course I understand propagation, as 99% of my QSOs are Dx. Following you first mentioned that possibility, I said I would leave it as a possibility. Even he came directly with a signal of 8+.

On the other hand, you mention the ARRL band plans. Well, I haven (and based my Tx on) the ARRL US amateur band plan, but it does not specify the case we are on. Maybe another one on their site.

Note also that many countries (like Japan as big ham community) also allow phone down to 21,150 khz, which is not the case for the US band plan.

So, not to make that topic longer and longer, I basically agree with almost everybody. Understand it like I understood their opinion as following a certain logic. At least, nobody made my fuses burning. I like to reply to posts to specify re their comments.