New Ham rating site online

[ke3gk]

There are a lot of places to go to check on the rating of the ham that you are ready to either purchase, trade or sell a radio to. Problem is, you have to sift through all the messages to find them at different sites and the rec.radio usenets. Or ... just take a 50/50 chance and make the purchase ... worrying if you've been had.

With that in mind, I have created a ratings site that will make checking on the status of any ham a breeze.

The HAMster Shack. http://www.hamstershack.com

Additionally, there is a SCAM page, so that you can keep up to date with the latest scams.

This website will only be as good as reviews posted, so I am asking everyone to post their reviews of their experiences in selling, buying and trading with their fellow hams at this site. So far there are over 90 individual reviews and 5 scams.

No more sifting through messages, no more going from site to site seeking information. Click on the review next to the callsign, and all reviews show up on one convenient and easy to read page. It's easy to use.

Please bookmark this site and stop back often, and help us all by posting your reviews.

This site will benefit us all with your help. Please pass the word.

Thanks

Tom KE3GK

[ke2iv]

Great news, OM.

BTW: you did check with a lawyer regarding slander and libel laws BEFORE setting up this site, didn't you? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[AL2Q]

I certainly welcome a service of this type, but I must concur with the poster recommending legal advice. #Some of the comments listed on the site could prove troublesome for their authors and the webmaster.

My advice: #Criticize or praise the transaction and not the person. #Your grading system lists personality as a criteria. #Bad idea. #Eliminate user comments like liar or cheat or thief. #As a matter of policy, require specifics of a transaction. #Either an item arrived as advertised or it didn't. #Simplify the grading system. #EBay's comment system is an excellent model: #Praise, Neutral, and Negative.

Should someone squawk at being listed, it is a lot easier to defend a posting based on facts than it is one based on opinion or name calling. #I fear that with some of the comments I read, this site will not be around very long.

[k8ts]

Tom;
Your idea has merit, BUT, I hope you have retained a lawyer. The above gentlemen are right in their comments. Just to see for myself I visited your website. I also checked some of the good and bad comments left. I have been hurt by a scam in the past and know the feeling, but some of the remarks really leave a lot to be desired. A good ham who has one bad situation, can have his creditability turned to apple sauce with some of the comments left there. What also doesnt appear is "the other side of the coin". How demanding was the purchaser? Some can be down right unreasonable if they think something is not right and nothing you can do will satisfy them. Be careful...your idea has some merit....but be careful of the forum. Good Luck;
Dale K9TTT

[ke3gk]

Thanks for the constructive comments ... I will be editing reviews and removing slanderous comments posted by others ...

Also, there is a venue for rebuttals, just below the review form link, and rebuttals will be posted too.

I have received some reviews that I have not posted at all, these are just crazy name calling reviews with no substance. I do filter through these things. Maybe I will filter a little better.

Thanks for the help ...

Tom

[W8OKN]

Excellent idea. I welcome it. Just be careful, as everyone has said. It is too easy in this country to sue someone. There are more lawyers in the U.S. than in all the rest of the world, combined. This is a fact.

[k7unz]

While I think the concept has merit, I do have to agree with the previous posters.....think you're in for a lot of problems with the site. #

I did check it out, and from what I saw it amounted to a place where someone could just post a nasty remark concerning a trade, sale, whatever. #No justification needed, just let it fly!

One guy complained that 2 of 8 tubes he bought were unusable, but does not say if they were sold as "new", "NOS", "used", "used, not tested" or what. #Nevertheless, someone now has a black mark against them for it!!

Yes, did see some rebuttles buried in the heap, but that's one more problem. #The count remains, even if the accused has cleared himself of wrong doing. #So, some jerk can just post something, without backing it up, and the black mark remains even if it was unjustified.....

That brings up the point of who is actually going to read these things? #I do believe if someone was checking the site, they would most likely just take a look at the rating assigned, and leave it at that. #Again, justified, or not, the rating is what most prople will look at.

And there are the ones that actually make threats of physical retaliation.....common, where does it end?

While actual scams need to be made known, you might do better if you contacted QRZ.COM to see if they could add a section on their site to cover that. #For one thing, more people would see it there.

However, the way it looks is that this is a place where anyone can go to post a negative about someone. #Makes no difference if the original deal was straight up or not, if you're not happy about it, just slap something bad about it in the listing and that's that!

And are you telling these people that someone has made a posting concerning them?? #If not, then you are not giving a person the chance to clear themself of any accusations made on your site.

I'd reconsider the idea, if I were you, and I mean that in the best possible way. #I do think you're in for a lot of grief as it stands.

73, Jim
K7UNZ

[N0PU]

With the lunatic fringe being what it is, I am hereby publicly requesting that I NOT be listed on your site either positively or negatively and furthermore I request that no notice of this request be posted.

Having given this much thought, I believe this is a bad idea and that honest people can be badly hurt through this kangaroo court.

I realize that you have good things in your heart, in this attempt to identify the bad guys, but I simply do not believe it prudent to list blind accusations.

I assume you will respond in the positive to my request.

[n5wsu]

I dont know why you need a lawyer when there are just posting what has been posted here in the first place about scams. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Keep them coming! When I do trades I want the best info about someone, if there rotton to the core.

[we4vb]

Just curious if any of the other ham related websites (including this one, QRZ) that offer the classified or for sale or trade sections, allow for the exclusion or restriction of #comments as to how a transaction was handled? #

If the information is posted in a publicly available forum already, then is there any problem from repeating the same posting on your new website (with the exception of copyright issues from the original posting website, I would assume)?

Was wondering if you had pursued this avenue for continuing what appears to be a service that many are interested in, when individuals request that no one post information about them on this your new website?

Thanks...

73, Rick
WV8HAM

[n3xp]

Great idea. I'm glad someone is willing to take all the liability for the statements.

Might want to look into Ebay feedback and the legal issues, or just the cost to defend the issues.

[we4vb]

I guess the question is who is responsible? The website, which is a public forum and available to be used or NOT used at the responsibility of the message poster, or the person who posted the information that may or may not be agreeable to the recipient?

I would think that would be the legal issue.

Is the messenger guilty, or the one who originates the message?

73, Rick
WV8HAM

[AJ5TT]

While no one enjoys being swindled, you must observe the proper course of legal action. #As with numerous posts on various web sites, that pertain to resale and Internet trading, do you home work first. #Leave yourself with options. #Before you become short fused and start to slam someone read this -

http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_a....ion.htm (http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/internet_defamation.htm)
73,
John

[we4vb]

From the above mentioned free advise site...

In order to prove defamation, you have to be able to prove that what was said or written about you was false. If the information is true, or if you consented to publication of the material, you will not have a case.

However, you may bring a defamatory action if the comments are so reprehensible and false that they effect your reputation in the community or cast aspersions on you.

So the bottom line is be accurate and truthful in the description of what happened, good or bad.

73, Rick
WV8HAM

[AJ5TT]

In response to Rick

Absolutely Correct!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the bottom line is be accurate and truthful in the description of what happened, good or bad.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

If you publish misleading information then there is no better place than a dedicated HAM forum to

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">effect your reputation in the community[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Do not let your emotions distort the facts, be truthful only. #Read what you are about to post to the community. #If it contains any emotion, remove it.

John - AJ5TT

[n8iwk]

Now back to the original posting.
Great idea, I'm always a bit apprehensive when dealing with someone I don't know.
I have more faith in dealing with someone that uses their call sign as their username than I do with some other id. I can always look-up the call sign and verify the name and address I'm sending money to.
Everyone that posts something for sale should include their name and call when posting an item.
I know I do, and no one has had any issues sending me money before I send them the goods.
By the way I always #send postal money orders when purchasing something and prefer the buyers send me only postal money orders.
Just my 2 cents.

[we4vb]

Ranting and raving? I don't believe that is the case here. Just wanting to make sure this needed service does not cause any problems for the website owner. I'm all for this type of information being posted so that everyone has a better idea as to whom they are dealing with.

Heck, if I was to rant and rave, it would be about code/no code or cw/no cw... you know, the STANDARD ranting and raving found in these forums! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73, Rick
WV8HAM

[ae4fa]

Looks like what this amounts to is, "GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT."

And then there are the residual effects . . .

Are you sure you want to get into this? Just how much liability insurance do you have?

Oh, I know you are "not responsible" for the comments posted. Sure. That will hold up in Court.

Sure it will . . . yeah, no problems here . . . "Show Cause Hearing? What the hell is that?" . . . "Uh, honey, you're tired of living here, right?"

One whacko job with buyer's remorse can cost you all the assets you've built up. Why? He made the comment. You published it.

You sure you wanna set yourself up for this?

[ae4fa]

IWK:

You are incorrect. The person filing the suit determines who needs a lawyer - by who he names as defendants in the suit.

By the way, this is the Internet, right? And the Internet is, in a way, interstate commerce, right?

Ever been in Fed Court. Ever checked on what just the legal fees are - even to get aquitted?

Didn't think so.

[KH6A]

This is a bad idea. #There's no check and balance involved. #What, am I supposed to check every day and see if someone has posted some garbage about me? #I think not.

Jim

[KF6WTC]

I'm sure I heard a joke one time about this Ham, lawyer, and a Priest.......... #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kg4yfa]

Great idea, but there is one problem. I don't really want to repeat what everyone else has already said, but there is one thing that I haven't seen any one mention yet.
The only people who can post Ebay feedback are the two people legally binded by an electronic contract. Thus, there is some verification of who is saying what. Your site does not contain detailed sale information which can allow someone to make up a story, or make one sound worse than it really is, without having facts to contend with. Also, you may want to shorten the maximum number of characters to be posted. This could keep people on the subject.
Perhaps you should require a link to the advertisement, or another detailed description of how the product was advertised.

[n8iwk]

Let me get this right...
Some wacko that just "ripped me off" a few hundred dollars is willing to pay thousands of dollars in legal expenses to defend themselves against something bad I said (or posted) about them??

And if this is the case, then it just goes to show once again that the criminal has more rights than the victim and how messed up our legal system is.

[ke3gk]

Let us all remember - it's the person posting the negative review that is the victim. #Not the person who stole the money.

If you don't believe this, then you must be calling all the good Hams who has posted and warned us of deals gone bad - liars ?

[n3xp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (n8iwk @ Mar. 13 2003,07:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me get this right...
Some wacko that just "ripped me off" a few hundred dollars is willing to pay thousands of dollars in legal expenses to defend themselves against something bad I said (or posted) about them??

And if this is the case, then it just goes to show once again that the criminal has more rights than the victim and how messed up our legal system is.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sad but true.

[KN7Y]

Although your intention is a good one, I would let companies like eBay take care of situations like this. Buyers always take a risk buying used equipment, and if they buy something outside of a "written contract" (which does exist on eBay, for example), that is their responsibility.

This is why eBay has done their homework, and their staff has already consulted costly legal advice just to protect their interest. You are probably aware of the eBay rating system. This is something that you "shouldn't do at home," and a legal area of which the surface is just too easy to scratch. HAMster is similar to the eBay "rating system," but without the "contract" of both buyer and seller. Therefore, you don't have the "seller's consent," which I believe could be a significant factor. On eBay, they DO have the seller's consent to allow the rating system.

I see a note about "slander," which may not be the correct technical term, but it's close. Both slander (vocal) and libel (written) fall under the legal description of "defamation of character." I'm not an attorney, but personally I would not want to be involed in anything that even scratches the surface.

Also, I see someone already requesting that they not be listed. It also unfairly doesn't give credit where it is due when there is an honest seller and NO one ever takes the time to list their call.

I certainly would not want to be included on this page. I already buy and sell everything through eBay (my rating, by the way, is well over 300 positives). And, if I saw my call sign on another "rating" website, I would really wonder why it is necessary, and also kindly request that it be removed.

Sincerely, and again, I'm not an attorney, but without the "seller's consent," (such as the one eBay has with their sellers) I believe you're asking for more trouble than it's worth.

Jack, KN7Y (eBay user ID "KN7Y-Jack")

[kc0jya]

After reading the original posting about the "Ham Rating" website, I was excited to see some kind of monitoring of deals on the internet (not just ebay). The only problem is that all of a sudden everybody is worried about what the person that swindled money from the innocent might feel. The only thing that I would suggest is send notice via e-mail or "snail mail" to the accused and ask for a response(some might respond since they wouldn't during their dealings). The other thing that really gets to me is that all of a sudden we have a bunch of "ham lawyers" quoting and misquoting the law. just give the accused a chance to defend himself and if he can't don't penalize the victim.

Have a good day,
kc0jya

[ke2iv]

Wow!

Seems my initial comment sure raised a hornet's nest!

To: ke3kg

With all due respect, do you really think you had an original idea when you proposed to set up a site which can be used as a forum for defamation of character?

Perhaps there is a real good reason why no one else has ever set up such a site before you?

And.....

To: The fellow who hates our legal system

We are talking about false accusations leading to defamation of character lawsuits. #Yes, if you falsely accuse me of ripping you off. #Or if you misrepresent the nature of the transaction and question my character, honesty and good standing in the "community" I can, and I will, sue your butt off - together with the guy who gave you the forum to "publish" such libelous statements! #

You do not have the right to engage in such behavior and the legal system, can and will be used to teach you that very costly lesson. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[w2mc]

Hello

I have a few thoughts for you

1. I think you’re nuts. #You have willingly set yourself up for some serious lawsuits, and, unlike some venue like ebay, you aren’t even going to get a dime out of the deal. #Or to defend the lawsuit.

2. I see that you call all your users “members”. #It also looks like the fastest way to become a “member” is to have someone write a comment about you.

3. I am NOT a member, I will NOT become a member, and you are NOT authorized to use my name or call sign on your website. #Good or bad, I don’t care. #I don’t want to run any of the risks that you are willing to run yourself.

73, OM, and take care

Jon
W2MC

[KE4MCL]

i'll stick with ebay..

your idea is great but greatly falted. if bubba just ripped me off and he gets 10 of his buddies to post crap about me then who do you think people will beleive? me or the 11 (bubba and his buddies) postings about me being a liar?

i started out selling radio gear on rec.radio.swap years ago. someone that i had problems with locally(i popped him jamming a repeater) decided to defame me on the newsgroup. it got so bad my mail account was spoofed and used to make death threats against the "victim". a death threat across state lines results in the fbi getting involved. they investigated and i ratted out all the info on who i thought did it. suddenly it all stopped and i got a few calls from "friends" wondering if the fbi had been to my house. it was all over but my reputation had been ruined. i started selling on ebay. this was 1998. i now have a 97.7 positive feedback rating (you cant please everyone and theres not much that can be done about retalitory feedback from bum bidders). i'll never return to rec.radio again. the whole thing turned into a blessing...

no more nickel and dime offers, and a valid feedback system with a few little flaws but still very useful.

i'd be leary of what your doing.. bubba and his buddies can easily get on there and maliciously trash someone like what happened to me.

robert cruz
ke4mcl
re-tek (ebay)

[ke3gk]

I'd like to thank everyone who has commented and made suggestions.

All of your comments are greatly appreciated.

Keep them coming.

Tom KE3GK

[ke2iv]

Tom,

I can only assume that your are what we lawyers call "judgement proof" (i.e. you don't have a dime or an asset or a salary to be garnished). #But will you always be that way?

Think about it.

What the folks said here about eBay is particularly relevant. #They ensure that they are simply an exchange vehicle between a knowledgable buyer and a knowledgeable seller who, between those parties only, have entered into a contract to buy/sell and who have further agreed to allow those parties only to comment about their experience with the transaction. #

eBay is a very profitable business. #They are in fact one of the few eBusiness models to have succeeded! #They make a ton of money off of both listing and selling fees (plus increasing advertising spots) and have created a very strong legal insulation from any negative consequences arising from the trades they facilitate.

As I said, perhaps today you feel you are judgement proof, but think again about what you are doing. #I have never seen a topic here before be so "on point" about how dangerous a path they think you are on.

You have absolutely no upside here.

[wr0t]

I think that Tom's site is a great idea, sort of like a BBB of hams. I have been looking at some of the neg. comments on some of the other ham sites and it is interesting because I know some of those shouting the loudest. Their records leave a lot to be desired. I know I recently had a deal go sour and I got ripped off for 450.00 and if Tom's site had been up then, it probably would not have happened. Now please hold the flames but I have also noted that most of the hams ripping off hams have only been hams for a short time. This is not always true, cause I had a 60 year ham get me once because I sent the gear before I got the $$$. I guess he did have a good reason for not paying me because he went SK before the rig even got to him. I was lucky because UPS returned it to me when they could not find him.. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KB2SEO]

BAD IDEA!
If I had it in for someone who I know sells a bunch of ham gear, all I have to do is post it on your site. Now it's he said, i said, they said to defend his situation. I damaged his name, regardless of his real reputation.

I could see this becoming a trash it site for folks wanting to bash each other...We got a operation that does that already (although the FCC is working on it). and of course there are live feeds on sections of 20 and 80 meters too.

Ham operators are supposed to be technically savvy enough to know a lemon. If not, they can go to a Elmer or arrange with the seller that the sale is conditional upon inspection of the product. If the seller is honest, he'll allow it.

[wr0t]

Some of the complainers must not be able to read. Go to Tom's site and check it out. Look at the rules for posting a bad rating. I doubt anyone would chance legal action for an untruth.

Check it out before you bash someone trying to stop some of the fraud today.

The honest have nothing to fear.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif