why are hams so cheap?

[w8ob]

I have been reading a number of post here and on a few other sites about getting ripped off. I am not faulting anyone on the receiving side of the screwing, but what I want to know is why amateur radio ops will take a chance on getting burned over saving a few bucks. Good example one icom v8000 listed for $160 as new, you can get a brand new one from a dealer for $170-$179. I know of one individual ( not going to list any names here) who got took over saving $25 on a handheld, this same person has two SUV's, a boat and two snowmobiles parked on his property. Talk about penny wise and pound foolish. Been in the ham game for over 36 years now and this cheapness never fails to amaze me. Only about 2 out of 5 guys really are crunching pennies to get by, but the other 3 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?

[kd5scg]

This is true in all walks of life. Some people are willing to drive the extra 30 miles to get the gas for 5cents cheaper

[wb6bcn]

I know what you mean, but can't give an honest answer. #And the bad part is when there is only a 10% difference on currently available items, the used equipment is most of the time lacking lacking any warranty. #Go figure???

But again, That joke about how wire was invented.

Two hams saw a penny on the floor and both grabbed it at the same time.

[KB9YKY]

Did the same type of deal happen to small amateur radio equipment dealers/stores? I mean like did alot of "little guys" used to exist...then have the potential customers buy from the big outfits doing mail order business in order to save 10 or 20 bucks? Then those customers cry when there were no longer any local "showrooms" when new models came out?

[ae4fa]

YKY:

Yup. That's exactly what happened.

I call it the "walmartization of America."

73, Bob

[KD5VHF]

Kinda like spending $2K+ on radio equipment and less than $200.00 on an antenna. It seems backwards to me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KB9YKY]

ae4fa...Roughly, what was the time frame when the little guys were all closing up shop? And did it start kind of by region or did it hit them all over the country at about the same time?

[KA7RRA]

Its the same thing when I go to a ham-fest. I have seen used radios going for just under 10 dollars of new radio pricese. I saw a single band VHF radio going for 160.00 used at some table but if you bought a new radio, a single band radio it was going to cost 170.00 new and with warrenty. I think I would rather pay the 10 dollars and get the new radio
Dave

[K3UD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KB9YKY @ Feb. 28 2003,21:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ae4fa...Roughly, what was the time frame when the little guys were all closing up shop? And did it start kind of by region or did it hit them all over the country at about the same time?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
In the Philadelphia area (city and suburbs) we had 5 places as late as the early 70s where new and used ham radio equipment could be purchased. presently, there is nothing left in an around Philadelphia except for HRO located south of Wilmington Delaware. There are certainly more hams in the Philadelphia area than there were in the 60s and 70s. #From my present location in Southwest Kentucky, the nearest ham radio shop I know of is in Evansville Indiana, and the next nearest is in Memphis Tennessee.

I imagine the economics of running a small specialized business has changed through the years with more regulatory and tax burdens, but the largest reason for the decline is most likely the large mail order operations selling at &quot;discount&quot; prices. Of course, these operations have almost always existed and if one looks at old QSTs from the 50s and 60s, there may have been more than there are now. It is interesting to note that HRO only locates its branch stores in states with no sales tax. I was told by the manager of one of the outlets that this is because their profit margin is so thin that they can not afford the extra expense of sales tax regulations.

This also happened to the hobby retail industry. In the small town where I grew up outside of Philadelphia (Norristown) we had 4 &quot;traditional&quot; hobby shops that had operated for a long time in and around the town, plus other shops in adjoining towns and large numbers of neighborhood shops in Philadelphia proper. Today, there are none left in Norristown but a very few survive that are located in some of the malls around Philadelphia. This has also been blamed on discount mail order, but again, the hobby industry has always had discount mail order houses.

Someone in this thread mentioned WalMart. I personally do not like to shop there, but my wife loves it. If they carried good lines of ham radio related items (imagine them being distributers for Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom, Ten Tec, MFJ etc) and Hobby items relating to model aviation, I would certainly shop there. At least the money I would spend helps create some badly needed local employment. While I do not consider myself &quot;cheap&quot; I do not like to spend more than I need to.

73
george
K3UD

[w8ob]

Kinda reminds me of when I was a kid. My mother never did drive a car so my father would have to take her all around town for groceries and other errands. His favorite saying was &quot; the woman spends a dollar to save a dime&quot;.
I guess human nature provides that we shall be our own worse enemy due to greed. I support the local ham shop here in michigan whenever I can, Its about 275 miles south of me, but I would rather see the small shops make a go of it.

[k3sam]

For VHF: </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kinda like spending $2K+ on radio equipment and less than $200.00 on an antenna. It seems backwards to me.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Not at all. It's not like you can go to Radio Shack and buy the parts for an ICOM 756Pro and put it together for a few hundred. If you want a good radio, you have to pay for it. You used $200 for an antenna, I have (probably) less then $35 in my antennas including coax. The nice part about amateur radio is the fact that you can build your own antennas for pennys. On these antennas I've worked all states a few times over and have no problem with DX.

There are many areas of amateur radio that you can save money on. Microphones, amps, meters, etc.. but the radio itself is worth purchasing.

-Sam

[k3sam]

Matt, I've seen many people wonder if you are really an amateur, you know, with a call and all. #I'm beginning to wonder myself. #</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) #After 1 and 2 are reasonably satisfied, try to trim the antenna length so you have reasonable (below 5:1) SWR on all bands of interest.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would never put my transceiver in the transmit state with an SWR of 5:1, or even 4:1. #You better stay with Harry's electronic course. #Do you have a call sign ?

-Sam
K3SAM

I am a cheap ham, buy my equipment used, nice, but used, no power, lucky to get 80 watts on a good day, just have a wire strung up 35 ft. feed from coax, and has been effective for only 10 yrs... cheap antennae, I know, but I have worked all over the world on that thing QRP and my dad who isn't a cheap ham with the power and beams, can't compete... but he lives in the city and I live in the country.. wide open spaces.. a factor in my opinion, WORKS!!!

[KB7GL]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ Mar. 03 2003,16:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1) #Get the antenna as high as you can. #If your situation is such that you're not buying towers, and could not imagine spending close to $1000 on concrete, boom trucks, etc, believe me there is no such thing as too high.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This brings to mind the old ham proverb:

If, after you've put your antenna up as high as possible, it survives the next big storm, then it either wasn't big enough or high enough!

Vic

[W4CGP]

Many ham radio components, like any comptuers or other electronics, are going to depreciate quickly. Anyone who isn't selling a month-old radio for $20 under what he/she paid for it is overcharging.

I got an Astron RS-70A used for $150. I could have gotten the 35-amp version new for not much more than that, if any. Why did I go used? I knew I'd use the power.

The antenna does the radiating, the radio just puts an AC current into a wire.

[KD5VHF]

Thanks Matt &amp; KG4TVT, Thats the point I was trying to make(just did so badly) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I guess I should have stated the best equipment in the world won't work without an antenna and the better the antenna the better the station.

[n0cki]

Well whats wrong with being cheap? I buy my radios used all the time at hamfeasts or radio store. My hf rig is a Kenwood 450 purchased at the local radio dealer. Use with homemade dipole from wire and twinlead. I is as high as I can get it in the tree with uv rope. My vhf is a Kenwood 7950 picked up a hamfeast for $30 has no display, I use it at home and key in the reapeater needed and works fine. The antenna at home for VHF is a homemade 3 element quad made from some wire a neighbor threw in the trash, #8 from a dryer circuit he removed. My ht is a Kenwood TH78 dual band bought at hamfeast for $25 the dials did not work. Found some bad solder joints where they connected to board I added some wire where the traces were burned off and it works 100% and I'm really cheap for the wire I used part of a transistor lead, a perfect fit. When I buy at a hamfeast I check the prices and if it is more than 50% of the new item, I leave it. Guess I'm cheap? maybe but it sure is fun. Robert n0cki

[N5LRZ]

For the most part, it is not that they are cheap. Most of the time they do not have 1700 bucks extra to shell out to get a new rig. Now I know the radio may have cost 700 - 900 bucks but you also require an external power supply with enough wattage to run the radio (unless the rig has an internal power supply) and most people want the better mic rather than that cheap dynamic hand held mic that comes with the radio. So that 850 buck Yaesu will cost you 250 bucks extra for the power supply so you can use it indoors. Plus the 125 or more for the half decent desk mike. Adding all the other nice enhancements such as extra filters, extra band cards and such you can quite easily double the cost of the radio in no time at all.

Ham Radio is like the game of golf. Sure you can play the game with a cheap-o set of Wal Mart golf clubs BUT you cannot advance in the game or ever expect decent scores unless you invest the bucks for a good decent set of clubs.

[w8ob]

I think we are getting a little off track here. I am understanding several collecting up ham gear that was picked up at hamfests etc. My orginal comments dealt with those who instead of spending $40 to $50 more to purchase a NIB rig, instead pay almost as much as a new rig costs to purchase a rig used without warrenty
etc. Or worse yet grab a deal too good to be true off one of the lists and end up getting ripped off. I would love to be able to pick up a like new top end rig for 1/2 of its value..... but its never gonna happen

[ae4fa]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ham Radio is like the game of golf. Sure you can play the game with a cheap-o set of Wal Mart golf clubs BUT you cannot advance in the game or ever expect decent scores unless you invest the bucks for a good decent set of clubs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

So, it IS the clubs! Thank God! And all these years I just thought I was a klutz. Well, I am, but that's another story.

I am now convinced that IT IS the clubs!

However, I'm not so sure golf makes a good analogy to amateur radio. The rig I've had the most fun with in the past year is my first build version of a Rock-Mite - 500mW out on 7.040 or 7.039. First put that little sucker on the air with a random wire strung out a motel room window at Myrtle Beach - had several nice rag chews &amp; worked 8 states from FL to NY in one day.

One of my buddies, a very crusty OP type, has lately taken to pronouncing that amateur radio communication is really nothing more than ESP. He contends the radio equipment and antennas are merely external reinforcements that allow us to use the extra sensory powers.

He might be onto something . . .

[N0KLT]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ae4fa @ Mar. 05 2003,19:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">&lt;snip&gt;
One of my buddies, a very crusty OP type, has lately taken to pronouncing that amateur radio communication is really nothing more than ESP. #He contends the radio equipment and antennas are merely external reinforcements that allow us to use the extra sensory powers.

He might be onto something . . .[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
sounds more like your buddy is off something.....his medications. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As far as golf goes, some wise man once described golf as a good walk spoiled.

73

Gary NØKLT

[WA7KKP]

I guess I am one of those 'cheap' hams, but I think a better term would be thrifty. As Sydney Harris put it, &quot;I'm thrifty, you're frugal, he's cheap!&quot;

I could do like many hams and simply exchange my Visa card number for the latest Yaseu/Icom/Kenwood part numbers, but ANYONE can do that. Especially CBers; I've seen spendthrifts in their ranks who'd spend a grand or more on a radio which is nothing more than a $50 mobile in a fancy box with meters and chrome and lots of switches.

I love to prowl the hamfests, just to see what is there. Sometimes you can pick up really good deals if you aren't picky about warranty, or working condition. I recently bought a 6 meter SSB rig for about 1/5 the new price. I didn't haggle; I just wrote the check.

I have a rule of thumb: Used gear at or below 1/2 the new price is a great deal. If you want guarantees then buy new. Many flea-market sellers either overprice or underprice their goods, depending on whether they're trying to make a fast buck or just want to get rid of the excess.

Ham radio, being a hobby, is far down on the budget list for most of us. If you are on a fixed income, every dollar does count. You can still enjoy the hobby simply by understanding market versus apparent value, and by knowing where and when to look. Just like buying new or used cars, your mileage may vary.

Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP

[n0evc]

So, Matt, what is your call?

Records matching BEERS:

BEERS, BENJAMIN F N1XXO MANCHESTER CENTER, VT
BEERS, CLIFFORD E AB7TH FOUNTAIN HILLS, AZ
BEERS, DARRELL R N1YIH BETHEL, CT
BEERS, DAVID E N1BXL BREWER, ME
BEERS, DAVID K AF5T Houston, TX
BEERS, DIANE L KD6KX FORT LAUDERDALE, FL
BEERS, ERIC W KE4BXM JACKSONVILLE, FL
BEERS, GERALD K N7UAM Las Vegas, NV
BEERS, GLENN O WA7FRN BATTLE GROUND, WA
BEERS, GRADY L KA0VDO MINNEAPOLIS, MN
BEERS, HAROLD R WB2HXZ POUGHKEEPSIE, NY
BEERS, HARVEY E N9OAK QUINCY, IL
BEERS, JACK C WB5BOT HIGHLANDS RANCK, CO
BEERS, JOHN R NK9J COOPERSTOWN, PA
BEERS, JR, DONALD L N2WKR MONTGOMERY, NY
BEERS, JR, LEONARD C KB7FRV PRESCOTT, AZ
BEERS, J PE1ATY 8701WT BOLSWARD
BEERS, KATHERINE M KB2VEH EAST HAMPTON, NY
BEERS, LARRY A K8FK ODESSA, FL
BEERS, LISA M N1XMI MANCHESTER, VT
BEERS, MARILYN R WB8YEW FOSTORIA, OH
BEERS, MIKE T KA9ZRZ RICHLAND, MS
BEERS, PETER E KB1CRB GROTON, CT
BEERS, RICHARD A N4VOO HUNTSVILLE, AL
BEERS, RICHARD F N6DKS FORT LAUDERDALE, FL
BEERS, RICHARD H WD8QDY FOSTORIA, OH
BEERS, RICHARD J KD4UWC FORT LAUDERDALE, FL
BEERS, RICHARD W WD9IIC MINNEAPOLIS, MN
BEERS, ROBERT C KE6SSM COLORADO SPRINGS, CO
BEERS, ROBERT F KB3EW GREENBELT, MD
BEERS, ROBERT T WB7EHN LAS VEGAS, NV
BEERS, ROBERTA E KB5RPI DUNCANVILLE, TX
BEERS, SCOTT A N1KMX E WEYMOUTH, MA
BEERS, THOMAS F N0IUF Crawford, TX
BEERS, THOMAS T KA7VBL MEDFORD, OR
BEERS, TIMOTHY B N1XBJ MANCHESTER, VT
BEERS, WILLIAM A K6ERQ FERNDALE, CA
BEERS, WILLIAM A N1AXQ BEDFORD, NH
BEERS, WILLIAM E KD6BNG ROSEVILLE, CA
BEERS, WILLIAM W WB0CHE CHESTERLAND, OH
BEERS, YARDLEY W0JF JAMAICA PLAIN, MA

Which one are you? Or are you using a pseudonym?

Russ

[KD5UJZ]

He is W0JF

[kg4eyy]

SHOOT i aint cheap im just poor! but i want to be in amatuer radio so i got inovative an resourceful. i listeen constantly on the air ways to all sorts of hams talking about going to the candy store a dropping a 100 or 200 0r even 2000 dolars all the time on some piece of eqiupment like it was water. well i guess thats fine and dandy if you got that kinda change to pop out. but for me that just isnt the case nor is it for many hams. for instance my power supply i built using the ARRL hanbook and old micro wave oven transformer and some dozen of 90 cent power transistors and a a few other misc. parts the case i used was a small filing cabinet a bit big but grat to work in lol . cost was 50 bucks because i got cute and made it variable with meters and such. but the out put is hyper clean and i checked it with a 120 amp load for thirty minutes with my 20 dollar thrift store scope . could probably weld dc with it too but its never failed me nor my eqiupment.&lt;because im poor . my 2m antenne was the ripped out copper tubing from a demolished building and and old tv antennae made a nice 7 elelment beam and a old used tv rotator for five bucks at the flea market now i can hit all the repeaters in my county and the majority of other in the oulaying countys too .my tower i built from old scrap bed frames its a crank over 60 footer works perfect here all because im poor&lt; 73s and best wishes KG4EYY

[KD5UJZ]

NOW THAT IS RESOURCEFUL!!!!

Sounds like you got the right ideas. Ever try out for Junk Yard Wars?

[KD5UJZ]

Sorry for the confusion about your liscense class. I thought I had read in one of your posts that you were taking the tech test in late march.

[w8ob]

KG4EYY thats what ham radio is all about, and to think I thought the homebrewers were a dying race. MY intention of this post was to try and understand why some guys will try to purchase a top shelf rig and instead buy one used to save maybe $50, get no warrenty or maybe even get ripped off. These same guys are the ones that drive around a big SUV and have all the latest and greatest motorcycle and boat toys but cry like babies over paying a additional $5 for a rig or heaven forbid sales tax. The other post bought back memories back in the early 70's I used to have a service shop that serviced two way radios and ship board radar gear, I always got a good laugh at the fellow who would pay $300 more for a CB radio just because it had chrome knobs etc when the guts of the unit were the exact same thing that a $50 rig was using. Go figure.

[w8ob]

Oh Yeah you guys don't discount those old beer cans, once you learn how to solder alum you can make a killer vertical out of them baby's

[KA8NCR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ Mar. 08 2003,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I throw in the discarded Polaroid film packs from 20 years ago (with the built-in battery), can you then make the next OSCAR satellite?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hey hey, as a kid I used to collect the discarded film packs and use the batteries. It was amazing how long one of those ran my am/fm radio.

I doubt they'd work worth a damn for a LEO, but I sure used 'em for a reliable DC supply for many of my youthful experiments in electricity -- including my first code practice oscillator.

[kg4eyy]

Ok guys i cant help myself but to reply about the oscars sats hihihihihihi in fact my key interest in ham radio lays in satelite comunications and that tower i built from bed frame is supporting 2 huge double helix antennae 2m and 70 cm both built using discarded 4 inche ovc pipe and a some 400 ft of 5/16 copper rubing bought at a scrap yard by the pound for 20 bucks the preamps i built from two olf fm radio broadcast radios cost&gt;a bad odor from digging in the neighbors garbage cans hihihih. the rotor i built from three wheel chair gearboxes and a old cordless drill motor also the same for the elevatrion rotors and used a couple of 1 meg pots and a couple of meters for stearing the pots were easy i just put a weight on the pots shast on aa little arm and mounted the potentiometer to the boom arm. so any way hihihihih yes in fact i do use thew garbage can for resources of satelite communication equipment but theres not a ham club in town that would have me. hihihih , lol, cause im too poor! hihihihi 73s all and best wishes (from the bird brain)kg4eyy

[kg4eyy]

and yes tommorrow ill go back to school and learn how to spell hihi lol 73s

[KD5UJZ]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ Mar. 08 2003,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I did not know Yardley Beers was still licensed, or even alive. #He was one of the editors of the famous WWII era &quot;MIT Radiation Lab&quot; series. #Probably one of the smartest people the electronics world has ever seen. #Still made coast-to-coast bicycle rides in his young 80s. #I did not know he had moved from Boulder.

mb[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
When you were doing research at MITduring WW2, did you ever meet Sanford Christopher Peek? (W1HTP)

[n0evc]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MattBeers @ Mar. 09 2003,00:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) #You'll find me on 7.030 when I'm at home - I tend to run 26-28wpm, about 35 in contests. #. . .

Therefore, when I AM on the air, I use one of several club callsigns anyway - my personal callsign has never been on the air. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Great! #I probably spend 80% of my time on 40 CW (bug on the low end, straight key in the Novice segment). #Which club call(s)? #I'll listen for you.

CUL

Russ