Lids Rush In

[K8AG]

I try to spend some time in the novice CW portions of the bands at some time during every operating session. I think it is important to promote their interests and sometimes I get to be an op's first qso.

Lately, however, I seem to hear a great number of very sloppy fists, and not always in the novice band segments. I believe that it may be due in part to the lowering of the code speed requirements to 5 WPM.

New ops with barely enough CW experience to scrape by at 5 WPM are purchasing bugs and keyers and paddles and, at times, literally raising a racket on the bands. I'm not complaining about their lack of knowledge of abbreviations or the slowness of their abilities. I fully expect to be doing 3 to 5 WPM, and I don't mind slowing down with a new op. Its the "mistake/correct/mistake/correct repeat until thorougly confused" style of CW that bothers me.

Its my contention that these ops haven't had enough exposure to how CW sounds when properly sent, nor to the thought process that goes into sending a line of text.

I do appreciate the new code test format and think that QSO based tests are by far the most appropriate than the "copy 1 minute without error". But 5 WPM is only 5 WPM and it dosen't take an op long to push through and pass a test. At 10, and especially the evil 13 WPM, it took an operator significant time and exposure to sent code to develop these speeds. (I still hate 13 WPM. 16 and 20 are fine, but there is something hateful about 13 WPM.)

I suggest that new CW ops do the following to improve their acceptance:

1) Don't use a bug or keyer right away. Develop your code speed to 7 or even 10 WPM before trying an automated sending device. Remember _. is N but _... is not.
2) Get a code oscillator and a tape recorder. Send pages from a book or magazine into the tape recorder then replay the tape as a code practice tape. You will discover very bad habits and will be able to work to clean them up.
3) Listen to other QSOs. Critique them for "copyability".

I don't mind 5 WPM being the code speed standard. I'm not the kind of op who thinks "I had to do 13 or 20 so everybody else should too." But I do think that 13 WPM took time and listening and made for not only faster, but better CW ops.

[n5pu]

All I have to say, is "Amen"!!! #Not that I can copy or send at the 20 WPM it took for me to get my licence, but I still listen and try to improve my "fist"!

[NS1O]

I'm with you, I also enjoy getting on in the old Novice sections but you can tell when someone is trying to use a bug or keyer. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use them however you should get to know code before you upgrade.
Al
NS1O

[KG4ROT]

Advice heeded. I am fascinated with cw and I am still an incredibly bad fist and copier. I have been guilty of getting on the air and just totally hosing up the whole deal. I am starting to play with MorseMail, and that is quite fun. You hit me with a guilt trip and I had to comment. Anyway, thanks for the thread. I have not quit..I only am regrouping and practicing.
Much fine cw to ya,
Terry
w4rot

[ke4pjw]

I bought a straight key about a month ago and have been practicing sending. Sending seems real easy, but it's going to take a while to get my fist just right. It's the receiving I have a real problem with. Sometimes I can copy ok, other times my recall is just too slow.

I hope to be able to get good enough to be on the air by summer, but right now I don't want to inflict my horrible fist and bad copying skills on anyone ;)

[kb5hws]

I think that sending 'good' morse code on a straight key requires a little bit of musical ability. #There's an inherent sense of timing that some people simply lack.
(Try getting the same people to clap their hands with a steady rhythm, and you'll see what I mean).

Keyers at least take away the problem of dits vs. dahs for these people, but they do require practice. #As someone who has recently switched from a straight key to paddles, I can definitely say that my error rate is significantly increased. #Instead of sending the wrong character once in awhile, I STILL do that, and have the added error of occasionally hitting the wrong paddle (or holding one down an instant too long, etc).

The only solution is, of course, practice, and one of the best ways to get practice is to get on the air and have QSOs. #If someone is at 5 wpm and a real lid, I can only assume that they are just beginners in CW, and have made the first step towards improving. #How many 20 wpm lids do you hear?

More lids are a GOOD thing, because it means more people are trying out CW. #Get on the air and talk to them - they'll get better!

[K7DXV]

Yes I agree there are a lot of operators sending
code with a bad fist. #No one has helped them set
the hand key. #Use a dime to set the spacing of the
contact, keep your elbow on table when sending.
#Sending comes from the wrist action, not the fingers
and adjust the spring tension for a good comfortable
tension on the key.
# #The wrist should bob up and down like a hinge, and
with practice sending will be easy. #Do not try to go
too fast.
# About the code, over learn the letters and numbers
so that they become an impulse to your mind, you will
immediately know the letter when heard.
# #Do this by practice of the letters and numbers or
mixed groups. Do this practice by listening only.
# Learn to write down later. 73 #Old Navy Code Instructor.

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ...please do not cuss us all out too badly, at least we ARE trying. Some of us have been GENERAL class less than one month, much less one year, much less one decade. Things will get better ( eternal optimist) in the long run, plus if you can not copy one stations c w, tune a few kc s and communicate with another. No my sending is NOT perfect, but I ( and lots of others ) are TRYING to communicate with YOU in the best way they can. Thank you for your time......kd4amg

[k7unz]

I too scout the novice bands for a QSO now and then, and I find no fault in a novice with a sloppy fist. We all started somewhere, and practice is the only real answer to getting your CW up a bit, sending or receiving.

What does bother me is when I listen to the mess that goes on in the extra segment of the band. This is where the novice should be listening to gain his/her operating skills. So what does one hear....extras that have decided that there is no need for "prosigns" (i.e. "K", or "AR" at the end of a CQ, for example)......use of things like "conf" and "call?", instead of QSL and QRA?.....no knowledge of CW shorthand such as "C" for yes (can't tell you how many times I've responded to a QRL? with a quick "C", only to have the guy start sending anyway). And just a general lack of traditional operating skills. (One that really gets me is the op who sends "de" between his own call when sending a CQ....is he calling himself, or what?)

If you want to blame the novice or new upgrades for their sloppy habits, I suggest you first begin by cleaning-up your own habits. No, we're not all perfect...we are, after all, "amateur" radio ops. But we can do a better job of it, and it sure makes it easier on the other guy if he doesn't have to guess at what you're doing.

I for one would rather work a novice at <5wpm, than an extra, who should know better, sending 20wpm of trash with a bug he can't use. At least the novice HAS an excuse for their mistakes, it's part of the learning curve.

But please, before you bad mouth the new guys, get your own act into shape.....and then set the example as you should be doing.

It's not important to send 25 wpm.......5 wpm without the mistakes and do-overs is much more effective communications.

Whew.....got that off my chest!

So, new guys (and gals), get on the key and don't be afraid of making mistakes. CW is a learned skill that takes a lot of practice! Heck, after 43 years of it, I'm still learning!!

Give me a call if you hear me in the novice bands. I have no problem going QRS, so don't pass me up if it's a little too fast for you, okay? I'll send at your speed when you call....and I'll call at the speed you send.

73....

Jim/K7UNZ

This is a great topic to talk about! But, I feel your a little to hard on the newcomers. I have a hard time believeing you never ever made a a mistake when you had your first CW QSO. You seem to think that your above making mistakes and no one is above error. I am a new General class ham and I have the Alinco DX-77T it has an automatic keyer in it so you have to use a paddle to do any CW. I worked to hard on learning my coode to give up on CW and not use it anymore and besides I really like my radio. So, what did I do I went and got a paddle and I will practice my butt off before I get on the air.

Some people would rather practice on air while I am sure that your CW ear must just shrivel at the thought maybe after they get over the initial butterflies they will have a great fist!

Remember this is still A HOBBY!
If people who send at 6 words a minute and aren't YOUR perfect fist then maybe you should not use CW or only operate contests.

Jesse KD7OVP

[N0PU]

OVP:

Don't get so defensive...

I think a lot of point here are well meant...
And most people are trying to 'Elmer' here...
They are trying to teach...
Maybe some folks come off a little rough around the edges but they really do mean well...

(Ya'll don't wanna hear ME on CW... )

But I can tell ya'll that getting a good fist with a straight key before going to a paddle or bug is important...

and learning the prosigns is important too...

You newbies keep at it... You'll get there... All ya need is the desire and patience and ya might throw in a little willingness to listen to the old timers... They really do know what they are talking about...

[KC8SIX]

Being a Technician working hard on my CW now in order to get on HF, I appreciate all comments (mostly civil) from all. Iam glad there are people in the novice portions who are willing to "come down" to a certain level to allow for those first QSO's. THANK YOU! My brother is a General and I watch him with his paddle/keyer and yikes!!! I am not going near one of those for a long time. I have had a straight key with oscillator I plan on practicing on before I hit the air. Thanks again for the advice. It is refreshing to hear of the CW supporters out there.

[K7LCS]

I agree with KD7XV, he hit it right on the head. I also am a ole navy cw instructor....73 KD7XV DE K7LCS AR

[AC7RG]

There is a South American military net Control Station that meets on different frequencies throughout the 4 mhz band. #Duplex/straight key CW traffic. #I have logged its "traffic" often. #The control station's CW is absolutely pitiful. #CS sends at about 22 wpm and even with my experience, I cannot ascertain as to what he is attempting to transmit. #Signal is weak from my QTH. #Bearing 172+ or so. #Last freq usage was logged at 4.336 mhz under a TDM spread. #Frequencies are changed routinely and I have never observed activity on the same frequency at this time. #As best I can gather, it is mixed alpha-numeric encryption. #Possibly practice transmission as there is no header used. #My point? #It isn't just the amateur ops. #I am glad to see new amateurs using CW -- in whatever form. #Ubung macht den meister. #Peace and Goodwill folks.

[KG4OOA]

Before I start I'll give you a short bio. I was first licensed as a Novice in 1960 as WN8BZC, later to become WA8BZC. In my life and travels I got away from ham radio for about twenty years and re-licensed about one and a half years ago. I used to work CW quite often in the novice bands and still do. I expect a novice to be slow. That's what novice means. It is up to us to help the novice but it is up to the novice to study and learn correct operational procedures and abreviations (i.e. AR, SK, K, KN, etc.), etc. I'll help by slowing up for him. I reply at about the speed you come back to me. If you blast a call to me at 20WPM, I'll come back that fast thinking you can copy that fast. Slow down (QRS). Stay away from bugs and keyers until you get to about 10 or 15WPM and I was taught to stay off the air with my bug or keyer until I became proficiant at using them. Only then try the bug or keyer on the air. I have to learn before I can do things and I think beginers are the same way. You should learn off the air until you are reasonably proficient. On the other side of the coin, we need to be Elmers to the newcomers.

[ng5e]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is a great topic to talk about! But, I feel your a little to hard on the newcomers[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

#I have to agree. #Getting on the air with your new ticket and making all sorts of mistakes is every Amateurs God-given right! #They are not "Lids", they are learning by doing just as most of us have done. #So I say"welcome" to those sloppy-fisted newcomers. #It's much more enjoyable learning on the air than with a practice tape. #

#If you have the ticket... have at it... and may the
whiners stay out of the novice bands!

BTW my CW pet peeve: #using your bug to drag out the first "DAH" in a character. #Drives me CRAZY!

73,

Dave, NG5E (Former sloppy fist)

[K8AG]

It amazes me how many people feel I was coming down on newcomers. I definitely was not! I was simply recommending that they avoid keyers and bugs until they are a bit more proficient. I also mentioned the tape recorder method as a relatively cheap way to improve both receive and sending abilities.

Yes we were all beginners at one time. Some of us Extras are still beginners at 20+ WPM. Perhaps we should all record our sending to see what we sound like and how easy we are to copy.

[AG3Y]

Having once seriously studied to become a professional classical musician, and being a loving amateur musician as well as amateur radio operator to this day, I think I have some insight as to why 13 wpm is such a "dreaded" code speed, and why so many people find it such a barrier or "plateau" to overcome. #

I believe it has to do with the pacing and cadence of the elements that form the letters. #At the 13 wpm rate, they are just a little bit too close together to be individually recognized , but not close enough together to form a smoothly flowing rhythmatic sound. #

The letters sort of lurch and jump along, not quite smooth, and not quite fluent.

I am sure that almost anyone but the rankest of beginners can recognize the pattern of long and short sounds that form the letters "CQ" at almost any hand-sent speed. There is a pattern of sounds that is distinct, and after you have heard it enough times, you do not have to struggle to figure out what the individual letters are. #You just recognize it, no matter what the speed! #(within reason, of course )#

Having been a RTTY operator, I can also tell you that "CQ" in 45 baud Murray code has a distinctive sound that you can recognize, even though you probably could never copy a line of teletype in your head ! #(although I have heard stories of people that claimed to be able to do so! ) #Ask any RTTY guy if he can't tell who is calling "CQ" vs. who is engaged in a qso. #I mention this because I am trying to emphasize that even though the individual elements that compose the letters are not descernable, the complete tonal pattern IS!

The point I am trying to make is that you should NOT give up when reaching that plateau at around somewhere between 10 to 15 words per minute. #(maybe slower! ) #CW is just starting to get fun at that speed, and actually becomes a very enjoyable mode to work once you break through from recognizing that a dash followed by a dot, followed by another dash, followed by another dot, is the letter "C" , etc. to recognizing the sound or tonal pattern of "di-dah, #da-da-dit, di-di-di-da-dah, da-di-da-dah" ! ! ! # "Hey!, you say, "that's Jim on the air!"

Anybody that can answer "dit . . dit" to the little tune " E S E " (come on, you know. . . shave and a haircut! #. . #remember Roger Rabbit??? ) can learn code and build up his/her proficiency if they just stick with it. #(betcha never thought of "shave and a haircut as "E S E" before!! )

Roger Rabbit just couldn't resist calling out "TWO BIIIITS!!!" when he heard that little ditty! #You too will get to the point that a "CQ" at just about any reasonable speed will be irresistable to you. #

So come on and get back to work! # Don't let Roger show you up. #If that dumb ol' rabbit can recognize that pattern, so can you ! #(and all the other patterns that form the words of the CW language! )

73 to you and see you on the band soon!

Jim AG3Y

[wd4fny]

Not all change is for the best. #Lowering the code speed for general and advanced class licensees falls firmly into that category (here come the flames from those who want to take the easy way out instead of work for it!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. #We live in a time where "shortcuts" are the rule and anything should be possible to achieve without much effort on the part of the one who wants. If the effort is preceived as being too great, don't work harder, lower the requirement.
#As a young General Class with no interest in phone I was horrified late one night in Northern Virginia to hear a ragged s.o.s. being transmitted in the lower phone portion of the band. A sailboat was taking on water a couple of hundred miles south west of Hawaii and their radio wasn't working well enough to contact the Coast Guard via phone. #The two phone ops who heard the s.o.s. couldn't copy cw well enough to determine what it was complained to each other bitterly about cw "lids" intentionally interferring with SSB. (yes, I copied the info and called the Coast Guard who picked up the ocupants of the sailboat) This was in the days of the 13 wpm requirement. #
#I fail to see how lowering the code requirement will improve anything except the coffers of the ARRL who campaigned for several years to get the code requirement dropped altogether, then retreated for fair weather when the storm broke among the Amateur community. #Later in the "me, me, me" years they successfully convinced the FCC to lower the morse requirement. # #
# While I'm sure that the ARRL coffers have expanded as have their subscription rates I'm convinced that Ham Radio has and will continue to suffer. #We're experiencing a degredation of cw fists and, in a lot of cases, they were bad enough to begin with! #The license restructuring currently going on will only continue the degradation.

[w6th]

I believe most of us know that years ago the speed was 13 wpm and the test was taken at the FCC office or Federal building. #The 13 wpm was for receiving and sending 13 wpm with a straight key. When this speed was tested and passed, you were by all means a qualified Amateur Radio Operator. #If not, you failed and would be given another chance in a month or so to try again.

# # Today it is different. Like buying a automobile and running over a few people, killing them dead, and trying to learn to drive this new auto so as to make it safe for others. Is it not this hobby of today?
# # So do as it has been presented in former posts and that is to buy, make, steal or borrow a straight key, practice at home and when you think you are qualified, then go for the gold. Five words being the minimum should be a snap and you should be a qualified Amateur Radio Operator in less than two weeks with just one measley fifteen minutes per day.

# # I want to add this as I edit: #We hams elmer you, give you information on how to improve your sending and receiving speeds and what do you do, but condemn us.

# # Take a fools advice and give it a try.
# # # # Good luck and will see you on the novice band.

[ka7tyt]

As a Novice who upgraded to Tech w/HF it would be my hope that experienced General and Extra licensed hams would come down to our frequencies and help new operators. How else are we to become better operators on the air?

Morse code was the factor of becoming a ham. I would like to achieve a level of code that I think of sending and receiving words instead of individual letters. That will come with more practice. I practice off the air but the true test is real time on the air.

We need more old time ELMERs who will give us the guidence and help. I have one suggestion. If you are a General or Extra give us your time and knowledge. After a CW QSO, meet us on Tech SSB phone and tell us the good points and mistakes that we made, while the QSO is still fresh in our heads.

I am a Tech trying to put my first station together and be on the air. I have been trying to get help from my radio club members. But run into "Gee, I would like to help, but with the kids sports schedule, work and the wife my plate is full". But I do think I found a person who will help after all.

The bottom line is; we are trying, our fists will be poor, our spacing incorrect and we may run letters together, was that an "a" and "n" or was it a "p"? But with the help of experienced operators WE will get better and join the ranks of "experienced CW operators" some day.

73's John KA7TYT

[JJ1BDX]

Take time to listen to the QSOs above 13WPM. It will be a very hard time but it is well worth taking.
Also, if you can't send code by a straight key, use a keyer always; I do not recommend bug keys.
I find some US licensees have a bit hard time on CW QSOs, but most of them have very little problem if any, so please do show up on the bands.
And OTs, please do not reject newcomers with 5WPM tests; while quite a lot of them obviously need to learn proper prosigns and Q Signals, bullying them will result nothing.

// Kenji 'Joe' Rikitake, JJ1BDX/3

[ka1eze]

Hey, they may not be newcomers but former good-fists. I recall talking to quite a few older hams that let me know I could send as fast as I wanted but they lost their fist with age (medical etc).

That worked out great when I was a novice, I got to send faster than I could recieve. And the guys on the other end liked it too.

And let the sloppy fists on. Geez, they're on cw, and that's what we want, right? Operating will improve skill, no doubt. Get on the air and send!

And don't act surprised that this article seems like a slam, Lids isn't exactly complimentary is it?

Rick

[AF4BI]

Take it easy on the new ops, At least they are trying to learn the code. And as we all know, we need them to help use the band, so we dont lose it. when i started in amateur radio, It was the code that won my hart! Sure i had trouble,Just like any new cw op has, But now, I can copy cw at most any speed, Even the first timers for that matter. dont matter what they use, bug, straight,paddle, or even touching two wires together,Like i did when i started,I did not have much money to buy a key when i started. But Much thanks to all the good cw operators that copyed my nervous sending with no problems. Please be patient with the new amateurs,so we will have more cw ops to add to our log book 73 af4bi

[n9kpn]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K8AG @ Feb. 19 2003)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Its my contention that these ops haven't had enough exposure to how CW sounds when properly sent, nor to the thought process that goes into sending a line of text.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This is a new twist. #Here we have people actually using #code and have someone complain that the new users do not have enough experience hearing code. #So these new hams are supposed to stay off the air and practice by themselves? #What better way to improve a skill than to actually USE it? #Should a new driver or pilot use a simulator or drive/fly the actual thing? #From the beginning of both drivers ed and flight instruction I was in the "hot seat". #How about playing an instrument? #Should someone play the air guitar before playing the real thing? #I think not and don't see any difference with code.

With all the complaining about the NO CODE and CODE LITE licenses that goes on, I would not expect to see someone complain about people using code but not being refined. #It is my contention that the best way to learn something is to actually do it. #I bet all of the 20 WPM with no errors started that way on the air. #They passed their General or Extra and went right on the air with no errors at break neck speed. #And they rode a two wheeler without ever using training wheels. #And they never use the eraser on their pencils. #Right. #So why not ELMER those new to code? #And if you don't want to help someone, move on down the dial to a different QSO and stop complaining.

..._._ # ..._._ # ..._._

[KG4UMB]

Hmm, never thought of it that way...

I am a Tech who is trying to upgrade at the moment. I have really enjoyed my months on VHF and want to move on to something more.

I thought code would be hard to learn, but using the ARRL's "Your Intro to Morse Code" I learned most of the letters in about four days and am now building my speed. I have really picked up on the rhythms of each character and can send at about 7 or 8 WPM with a Straight Key. I AM ITCHING TO GET AN IAMBIC. But after hearing this I will hold off for a few months.

Good thoughts and thank you for the ideas.

73 de KG4UMB

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka1eze @ Feb. 21 2003,18:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey, they may not be newcomers but former good-fists. I recall talking to quite a few older hams that let me know I could send as fast as I wanted but they lost their fist with age (medical etc).

That worked out great when I was a novice, I got to send faster than I could recieve. And the guys on the other end liked it too.

And let the sloppy fists on. Geez, they're on cw, and that's what we want, right? Operating will improve skill, no doubt. Get on the air and send!

And don't act surprised that this article seems like a slam, Lids isn't exactly complimentary is it?

Rick[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Trust me, guys! As we age, bones and joints stiffen and coordination falls off. Just happens. There was a time my code on a J-38 sounded like, I was told often (and I agreed!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif a keyer. Them days is gone forever! Today my straight key code is sloppy in my own ears at 10 WPM, and I won't even think about it at 20 WPM. And as much as I really, really, really hate to say it, for some of us who are aging, the keyboard may one day be our best option, though for now I will stick with the paddle and electronic keyer.

The problem we have faced lately is that the"farm team" ground for amateur radio is 11 meters, and the "apprentice" (old Novice) training ground is the 2 meter repeater. So when these new hams try CW, no one has really taught them anymore than how to get through the test. When the training ground was the Novice bands, as it was for many of us Dinosaurs, yes, we made mistakes and yes we learned to correct them, because we had other hams who wanted us to learn. Now we don't. Well, not many.

Most of the comments here are right on target (except for the whining ones) about learning to use a straight key first - don't even THINK "bug" until you are proficient with a hand key that is properly adjusted and can see VERY GOOD code at 10-12 WPM. Play with the straight key until you get it narrowly spaced and with enough tension to release when you release, and then send code.

Learn the prosigns! And use them! But how do you learn? Well, post a chart of them next to your transmitter, and refer to it everytime you hear something you don't know - if it's on the chart, learn its meaning and how to use it yourself. Read the ARRL operating guides on CW operation and prosigns. When we all speak different languages ("do it your own way") we don't communicate at all.

But remember - if you can handle a straight key at 3-6 WPM, then get on the air and do it! You will find others who will be glad to join you, and if you don't go into it thinking you already know all there is to know, you WILL learn and you WILL improve. The Novice bands were for years there for exactly that purpose. Now with the slower speeds in all portions of the bands, you need not stick to the Novice band if you have a General or higher ticket, as you will find folks of your speed in the Extra or General portions as well.

A great investment is a CW training tape, or a program on your computer, that will send to you perfect code at the speed YOU choose. If that's 5 WPM, so be it - listen to how the characters are formed, and plug your key in and try to duplicate them. It does take work, but it is well worth it. Don't assume that because some ham is on the air and sending code that he is doing it right - rely on a code tape or computer program, and learn the way it SHOULD sound.

We welcome you to CW, and we welcome you to learning the proper use of it and the prosigns and procedures. I'll join you on the Novice bands - am often found around 7143-7146 on 40 meters for exactly that purpose, and will be happy to drop down to 3-6 WPM. So dive in and learn, make mistakes, get them corrected, and enjoy CW. And if you hear me around there, give me a call.

73
Ed

[K2WH]

Maybe you don't know but the term "Lid" is a derogatory term to many hams. #I don't know any ham that appreciates being called a "Lid". #Maybe you have been on CW so long, you've developed a myopic view of amateur radio and don't know what's happening on modes other than obsolete CW. Take off the blinders.

K2WH

[K2OC]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I remember when I first started out with a Novice license in 1975, my brother K9SO told me about Straight Key Night on New Years Eve.
He told me that the object of a QSO was not the speed that you were sending or "content of the exchange" but the "sound of your fist" sending CW with a hand key.
I remember struggling with the thought that I had to be perfect (and it was a matter of personal pride) that I tried to do my best. The contacts/QSO's I had that evening were some that I will never forget. Many of the amateus I worked had been Hams for years and they were great using the hand key. Every one of them encouraged me (the new novice) to keep at it as "I wasn't that bad." I knew what that meant! They were being very polite. I have never forgotton my first "Straight Key Night" and to this day I still try to take pride in my "fist." #I don't like copying 'sloppy CW' but if the operator is new and giving it a go, I always accomodate. Ur SKN, 599,
de, K2OC

[KC5CPO]

Okay, My two cents...
cut the newbies a friggin break! Strings like this will actually keep people from getting on the air with CW. It takes lots of practice to send and copy. What better way to get practice is on the air. Thank God my first CW contact was with a very patient ham and not with the author of the origional post. As for the term 'lid' I find it derogatory! Remember, we were all 'lids' when we first started... and I dare say there is not a ham radio operator out there that is perfect.

[kb7uxe]

Greetings from Dan kb7uxe..
Rather than point out problems, or complain, or whine,
May I suggest taking a look at http://www.netwalk.com/~fsv/

click on "A BIGINERS GUIDE TO MAKING CW CONTACTS"...
When I started cw, this was the missing link.
How to formatte a cw qso etc.. seems that part was something no one apperently thought to explain..
http://www.netwalk.com/~fsv/

Good luck.. Dan. kb7uxe@yelmtel.com
3.696 most evenings sometime between
7pm to midninght pst.
73's AR . SK

[K8AG]

Amazing how the topic of my posting seems to have gone from suggesting that new ops avoid bugs and keyers until they become proficient with CW to ragging on newbies and suggesting that they not be on the air.

I never suggested that new ops not be on the air. I do, however, believe that they will send better CW, and have better QSOs if they use a straight key for a while.

Man you'd think I suggested removal of all 5 wpm techs.

[nm4m]

I agree with hearing a lot of sloppy fists out there. When I am on a straight key I am one of them. I disagree about the use of a keyer.

I find that by using a keyer as I am learning to "talk" CW that I learn what the signal is "supposed" to sound like. If everyone started with a keyer, their code would be more readable. Those of use trying to find someone to talk to would find many readable messages. I have worked quite a bit a code. I am starting to like it but it has taken lots of work.

It has gotten so I look for folks sending with a keyer so I have a better chance of copying. With the straight key, many new folks get the weighting off and run the letters together. As I said, with my use of a keyer I find that I have learned what the letters and words should sound like. The keyer helps me get a rythem that reminds me of spacing between letters and words.

I have a set of Heathkit twins that are CW only. When I use them on the air I use a straight key. I find that their is some minor work getting used to the motion, but that I am quickly able to "mimick" the sounds I make with my keyer.

Just one hams opinion. Yes, I am a no code tech, 5 wpm General and Extra.

1st rule of ham radio - It is a hobby.

2nd rule of ham radio - What works for one person, may not work for another. Your mileage may vary.

I hope to meet you on the air.

Dave Wilburn
Toano, Virginia
http://www.qsl.net/k4dgw

[JJ1BDX]

On use of straight keys: I hear many old timers who send sloppy code by using straight keys, bugs, and keyers, so the usage of straight key or anything else will not directly contribute to improve the readability of the code sent.

One thing I can guess is that using a straight key will help the sender recognizing how slow the maximum speed which he or she can send, and that how she or he should send in manageable speed, because the sender is not assisted by the automatic-sending mechanism.

I prefer accurate keying on the faster code; using keyers or even computer-generated code (from keyboards or contest software) usually sounds better.

I should admit that my code using a straight key is much slower and sloppier than that of using a keyer. I understand, however, and respect people who use straight keys (I joined ARRL SKN on January 1, 2003), as long as the code sent is understandable.

// Kenji 'Joe' Rikitake, JJ1BDX/3

[kc2tr]

Hi Everyone. I have a DIFFERENT twist...First of all I can only say that I LOVE CW. I fire up my old Heathkit HW-8 with about 1-watt rf out, and have some fun, with a dipole. My motto is :"No Gain-No Pain".. Trying to get DXCC QRPp with 1-watt out. OK, my problem is with the CW Op that sends to FAST? I am about 10-15 WPM now, but when I hear these bugs and keyers flying so fast that the dits and dahs mesh together so that you cant pick out a letter, well, I change freq. I am not dumping on those who can copy that fast-Kudos to you, but some of us out there have brains with ordinary cells, not Integrated circuits-hihi.. During the last CW contest, I had to copy one letter at a time over and over because the OP was using one of those contest deals, set at 45 WPM..It almost sounded like slow RTTY. Pse dont get me wrong, I have been licensed for over 24 years now, and the one thing I promote is CW..I also say CHEERIO to the Ops who are real slow, but are on the air trying. I have no problem slowing down to 3-5 WPM to have a nice qso..I was like that at one time, so I know how it feels to mess up-its embarrassing..My suggestion to the slow Ops is this: Go your own speed. If it means slowing up, BUT doing it right, then DO IT. Speed will come with practice. To you 25-45 WPM Ops I say: Keep it up, I will be talking to you on CW-"Some Day" soon, I hope, after I have a Pentium processor implanted in my head-hihi. Enjoy CW, it gets thru..73's, Ken-(Now) KU2US..

[N9ESH]

Might be a good time for us all to find a copy of the ARRL's "Your Novice Accent". It was once sent to all Novice class licensees and also published in QST. Good stuff.

[KC5CPO]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Amazing how the topic of my posting seems to have gone from suggesting that new ops avoid bugs and keyers until they become proficient with CW to ragging on newbies and suggesting that they not be on the air.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your origional post. I don't know what I was thinking that got me so upset... PERHAPS IT WAS YOUR REFERING TO NEW CW OPS AS LIDS.

[n5zvp]

I love the tips!

I've been a tech forever, cw has been a barrier for years until recently. After banging my head against the wall, one of the respected elders in the local ham community suggested that I was listening to code that is "too slow" and to try the Koch method using G4FON's excellent software.

So two weeks ago I started with the character speed at 20 WPM and the word speed at 10 WPM. I master the current batch of known characters at that word speed then crank it up to 17 WPM word speed. Helps to get the beat of the characters that slower code lacks. Two or three 15 minute sessions a day is all it takes. Goal is to master the "listening" skill before I even start with a key.

I also spell out road signs and license plates while driving to and from work. Freaks out the ocassional passenger.

So hopefully by the end of April, I'll test and take care of the rest of the amateur elements. My reward for the effort will be a Elecraft K2 kit. Code will also help for weak signal VHF/UHF work.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Chris
N5ZVP

[w6th]

Believe it or not: # We hams elmer you, give you information on how to improve your sending and receiving speeds and what do you do, but condemn us.

# # Do what I did many years ago and that was copy, copy, copy and more copy. #Send, send, send, send and much more send. #No elmers needed here and my elmer was to listen to ARRL qst de W1AW. You couldn't ask for a better elmer.
# # My first qso was with a comment from W2DXB, upstate New York, nervous yes, but in full control and his comment was I sounded great with a perfect fist.
# # There you have it, I have now elmered you and now go for it as we did years back. Don't knock it unless you try it.

[kc6ufe]

this is the typical elitist bs that associates itself with cw operators. A lid is not someone with poor fist, a lid is someone who is a rude, inconsiderate, discourteorus operator. This guy needs to get off his high horse and lighten up a bit.
People will get better fists, it takes practice, and if you dont like the fist, dont return the cq. There are plenty of other people who will. Move along.

[WB3KJX]

CW is all about timing and practice. It is a 1 to 3 ratio. One of the best things I could recommend is the new operator watch either the built in meter on the rig or an attached SWR/power meter. After sending a character, wait until the meter drops to zero before sending the next character. I not only gives a visual indication of your sending, but also helps with your rhythm. Both "seeing" the sending, and hearing it, helps develope the timing.

I very much agree with K7DXV about listening and learning to write it latter. When I was learning CW in 1969, I was told "when a question mark sounds like a question mark, you've learned cw." That proved to be very true!

Keep practicing and get on the air. You'll learn better when someone is talking back to you, rather than listening to a CD or computer!

73's Scott

[KD7SGV]

Now I'm really nervose about my hand at CW. I thought this would be a nice place to learn. I'll stear clear, of your CQ's.

Thanks

[kb0vvk]

I think code is learned by doing
When you first get your ticket
you have not been on the air at all
only way you get better is to do it and if I get on with a key or a bug or what ever Im not going to be worth
a darn for a while but the more I use code the better I get and the more I hear the better I will send
so if Judy says I can by a key have alot of patience
with me ill get the hang of it .

[k2olc]

Anyone who thinks CW is dead should read all these comments! I learned CW in 1952 while serving in the USAF. As ssb became the preffered mode of transmission, I went to strictly CW. In 1973 I got a sideband rig and stopped CW use for years. I've recently returned to CW. I no longer copy at 20 wpm but still enjoy it. ( aside. a j-38 key was screwed down to the radio operator's position in the B 29 aircraft.) k2olc

[w6th]

Hello Bill ,kc6ufe
Very nice talk. #Maybe you can do the teaching of the proper operation of cw, huh? Instead of the good value of your tongue as you have just set a good example of why many won't elmer. So long partner. You lost a elmer.

[kc6ufe]

Hi vito, I sure dont want or need an elmer that thinks Im a lid because my fist isnt up to his specs. Thanks for bowing out, Im really much happier now. I will listen for you too, see what a good fisted ham is really like. I still maintain that rudeness on the bands defines a lid, not someone learning to send good code.
...rushing in,
kc6ufe

[K7EDX]

Wow! Now that's alot of replies about CW!

If any of you haven't read N0AX's guest editorial in
the January 2003 QST please do so!!


My comment to the "experienced" hams who are "upset" about the "fists" of the "unexperienced" hams.

What are you doing to constructively contribute to the "unexperienced" ham's knowledge and skills?

Are you an Elmer?

I hear many "older" hams speak of having had a great Elmer.

I wish I had one!! You can buy all the books, all the tapes, spend all the time, but NOTHING can replace human interaction!

73's

Adam
K7EDX

ps. My first post ever on QRZ! And Thank YOU WARD!!

[k8nqc]

I respectfully disagree with the original posting. It is the novice band and one should expect to hear beginners there. I have personally Elmered over 100 novices over the years, all one-on-one. For most, jumping in on the novice band was scarey but I always pointed out that beginners were expected there and they would not be criticized. It still took courage but in just a few weeks I was always rewarded by hearing them enjoying CW with ever improving skills. I think this posting does a disservice to those who may want to learn to enjoy CW. Readers who may fall in that category should forget this thread and use their CW priviledges at whatever their skill level may be.

All of us CW operators had our time of beginning and believe me, fists of yesteryear were MUCH poorer than fists of today. We did not know what good code was supposed to sound like since most good senders were going so fast we could not copy them. When I was a boy operator talking with my friend Larry across the village, most listeners would have had trouble telling for sure if it was the Morse code we were using but today, 45 years later, I am one of the old pros on CW.

I can assure the beginner that most of us old-timers will never look down on your beginning level skills. We will always be too happy to hear newcomers in the beginning stages of mastering a skill that has been important to our lives. We may not answer you often since slow code to a fast-code operator is a bit boring, but we still respect what you are doing. There are others out there at about the same skill livel as you and you can really enjoy contacts with each other. When you hear others at skill levels less than yours, you may feel pride at your progress but remember to be pleased that they are learning also.

Always call CQ at the speed you wish to operate. It makes for a better match-up. That reminds me of the old grandmother maritial adage that there is never a pot so crooked that there is not a lid to fit it. Find others at your own skill level and enjoy it without regard for what others think. # # # #73, Bill

[w6th]

A lid can be defined as a operator that:

Sends faster than he/she can receive.

A operator that uses the wrong procedure.

A lid has nothing to do with his/her sending ability and/or attitude.

A lid of #today is one who sits on the top of a dx station while he is already in contact with the dx operator exchanging reports. This is a very, very bad lid.

[k7unz]

Okay....okay...enough bickering and name-calling....please!!

I don't know where the idea came from that good CW skill is measured by the speed at which one operates! #Somewhere along the line we have decided that it's not enough to have a good fist, not enough to be able to have a nice chat with someone, not enough to put a smile on someone's face (even if you can't see it!), and not enough to simply have a good time with a HOBBY! #No, judging from what I'm reading here, it seems that all of this is nothing if it ain't happening at 20+ wpm!

Folks, speed is not the thing!!

I've been a CW guy ever since I got into ham radio. #I love the mode! #It's simple (really, it is....), requires little in the way of equipment (any kind of key will do...), and breaks down some of the language barriers you encounter on the voice modes. You do not have to be fluent in ANY language other than the language of CW to enjoy talking with PEOPLE all over the world!

Now, speed.....why the big deal about speed?? #Yeah, I can kick back and listen to the keyboard conversations at 40 wpm, and I often do. #So what?? #

I'm in this HOBBY for the fun and relaxation it gives me, and the occasional public service I can perform. #I do not find it relaxing to crank out CW from my paddles at 30+ wpm. #To me, that is a chore, and not why I fired up the rig. #Some days, 15wpm feels good, other days 20wpm fits my fingers, and some times a 5 wpm qso is the best one of the day!

Gee, here's an idea! #Let's re-invent the wheel.... #Let's just try to get some enjoyment out of this HOBBY, be it CW, SSB, FM, Moonbounce, or tin cans and a string.

Most of us got into this HOBBY because it was fun and exciting.....it still is!! #Critics are in no short supply....what is in short supply are the "doers"!

So to all of you, new, old, re-conditioned, or whatever....please! #Can we just get back to having some fun?? #It comes in all flavors folks....5 wpm, 10wpm, 20 wpm, and yes, even the dreaded data and voice modes.

A good fist is a joy to hear and a pleasure to copy. #And you know what.....you can have one at any speed! #Speed does not make a good fist, a good fist makes conversation flow at any speed.

Thank you all for "listening" to my opinion, as I have "listened" to your's.

Novices, newbies, whatever....see you on the bands, I hope!

Oh yes, did I mention that this is a HOBBY??

73, Jim
K7UNZ

[N1VLQ]

Bravo, Jim! Well said. Hopefully, well received and well heeded. Have some fun, folks. If it ain't fun anymore, you might as well call it work.
73
Bruce, N1VLQ

[W7RJR]

The best way to learn is to DO and amateur radio is no exception. Becoming proficient at code is something that takes time and much much practice. It does not bother me in the least if I encounter an operator sending slowly and deliberately and making mistakes. It becomes apparent that the operator is learning and doing the best they can.

Sending sloppy code is nothing new. I have come across this in both Novice and very seasoned operators. There are times I can copy very fast code in my head if the operator is sending clean, well spaced , well formed code and there are times that I am stumped at what I hear even at 5 WPM.

I would suggest, as has been many times in the past, that an operator (new and old), record their sending from time to time and then play it back later on. If you are not able to copy your own sending then perhaps you need to make some adjustments.

I encourage ALL operators regardless of license class to use the CW privilege(s) they have earned. Practice, practice and practice some more. See you on CW!

73

[WB6DGN]

Poor CW ops became GOOD CW ops by engaging in qso's with PATIENT, COURTEOUS operators who would help them along the way. Don't let your arrogance and ego discourage those who want to learn. Patiently and politely point out your observations during the QSO. Most of us would appreciate that. This is exactly the reason I don't operate CW on the air.

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W7RJR @ Feb. 23 2003,11:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The best way to learn is to DO and amateur radio is no exception. Becoming proficient at code is something that takes time and much much practice. It does not bother me in the least if I encounter an operator sending slowly and deliberately and making mistakes. It becomes apparent that the operator is learning and doing the best they can.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
True. Doing does teach. But it all comes back to knowing that the Morse character 6 is not dahditditditditditditditdit. And that 3 is not ditditditditditditdahdahdah. And I hear both - numerals are the biggest problem for most newcomers with keyers, but some letters get extra dits, too!

An operator has to know what the character should sound like. If he is sending too many dits - the most common error- then he either doesn't know what it should sound like, or can't tell if his sounds like that or not, or doesn't yet have the coordination to let go of the paddle in time to end the character. All that should come in time, and, with practice, it will. But that is why I encourage the use of a straight key during the early stages of the learning process. It is, if you know what the character is supposed to be, hard to send extra dits or dahs to create it. It is exceedingly easy to do so with a paddle, until one masters the sound of code.

We who like to Elmer have the responsibility of helping that fellow who is still learning to recognize that his sending is not correct. We are faced with the dilemna, though, of telling him without him either turning off the radio and going to bed, perhaps leaving ham radio, or becoming so angry that he turns the keyer to dit and leaves it there for the next half hour. And both things have happened. It's a difficult line to walk, to teach without criticizing, and it is almost impossible to say "You're wrong" and not be taken as just being mean. Some who really want to learn will accept it as instruction. But those with bad attitudes and the feeling of "I already know enough," will not take it in that spirit at all.

We all started somewhere. We who have been at it for 50 years, and who have perhaps, as I have, been employed as a government HF CW operator, may have skills now that the newcomers can only dream about. But it wasn't always so! I remember struggling to copy 5 WPM, really struggling, and being badly intimidated when I got on the air and someone actually answered me.

If we learn, if we want to learn, if we want to listen and see what it is supposed to be, then all that uncertainty and fear goes away.

And that is the goal - never to be mediocre.

73
Ed

[NY2LJ]

I wish my fist was better and I'm trying to get my speed back up to where it should be. I may never be a great CW operator, but I practice whenever I can and I find that time spent on the air is much more valuable than time spent banging away into some practice oscillator. I'm trying to become a better communicator and the QSO experience is what I need and want. I'm sorry if I'm not up to some operators' standards. Spend some time with me in a QSO and I'll pick up more of your good habits.

As far as the instrument itself is concerned, I feel that a good paddle and keyer is the right choice for me. I use a keyer or a straight key on different rigs. The keyer forces me to be correct about timing and spacing and doesn't allow me to repeat the same mistake over and over again. I also drive a car with an automatic transmission. That's probably a weakness, too.

So, I'd like to thank all the patient operators who put up with my clunky fist and the occassional QRS. I'm getting better and you're all helping. For the operators out there who feel that I'm just more noise they have to learn how not to hear, I again say that I am sorry. I hope that I'll remember that I was helped by a large and generous group of Hams that slowed down and plodded along with me. Once I am comfortable in that wonderful 25+wpm zone; I plan to always take some time to listen for and answer that station that needs me for practice as I needed you.

If we're not all here for each other, why are we here at all?

73,

Lonnie NY2LJ

[KB7LOC]

A great while back, N7NET and myself pubished "QNC!" a journal about CW. It brought us some fascinating stories. In researching Army stats on CW we learned that there was no common denominator among good CW operators. Army testing found that intelligence was not a factor, nor was training methods - in short, about the only factor that seemed to contribute to knowing who would make a good operator was music! ... but not always. I'm a classical composer and classical guitarist and I've never been able to top 20 wpm unless in a trance! Am still fighting to get my consistent reading speed up to snuff - but I can send straight key like a glissando (fast musical run for the none musicians) and I have a straight, J-38 key next to my iambic, next to my Vibroplex Bug.

I find that only Bug users respond to CQ's sent on the bug. Interesting.
leo griffin
KB7LOC

[n4vom]

One dit and one dah at a time. If we don't encourage, mentor and advise our CW enthusiasts who will? CW will soon be a lost art if we chase away lids who are working up their speed. WE did not make the 5wpm and soon to be no code ham license requirements for General and Extra. I really beleive most hams want to be part of the CW club. We must go to extraordinaray efforts to reach out and encourage hams who want to communicate in the art of dits and dahs!
73
AC7WG

[WB6DGN]

It is YOUR responsibility to determine how your advice is taken. If you want to be arrogant and a braggart, it will be taken that way (and responded to that way). If you truly want to be of assistance, it, too, will be taken that way. Too many "elmers" want to come off as "superiors". As a result, I spend most of my time listening, and very little transmitting; and NONE of that on CW. I don't take well to being put down, just to flatter someone's ego.

[K2WH]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K8AG @ Feb. 20 2003,22:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Amazing how the topic of my posting seems to have gone from suggesting that new ops avoid bugs and keyers until they become proficient with CW to ragging on newbies and suggesting that they not be on the air.

I never suggested that new ops not be on the air. #I do, however, believe that they will send better CW, and have better QSOs if they use a straight key for a while.

Man you'd think I suggested removal of all 5 wpm techs.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That will teach you!! Never, never and I mean never, mention, either pro or con your personal feelings about CW on this forum. It's dangerous.

It could very well be the last thing you post. Hi hi.

K2WH

[wa2isc]

I've been reading QRZ threads for several years, and especially find CW based threads the most interesting. K8AG's posting has answered most all of my questions about where the hobby is going, or at least why its going that way.

Elmers have always been there, and are still with us today. Reading this original post, and the 6 pages of comments, has shown me why there is such a loud cry for elmers, even though there are many out there.

I spent 20 minutes reading and re-reading the original post. With the exception of the title (generaly the attention-getting part of a precis), I still can not find the use of the term 'LID'. That notwithstanding, approximately half of the commentors are defending any possible short coming on their part as not signifying that they are indeed LIDs. I guess I can't figure out why they thought they were being called lids.

As I read it, K8AG is attempting a bit of elmering: "For better CW sending skills, it is generally better to start your sending career with a straight key. You get a more direct tactile sense of the elements and characters that make up the language. Move on to semi- or automatic equipmeent after mastering the basics". (I provided the paraphrase.)

Most of the responses essentially took issue with the topic title, and forgot (or ignored) the message. Its difficult to elmer when the student tunes out the message, reacting only to the sound bite.

If you want to send better CW (ie. communicate more efficiently at any speed) start with the basics and work up. Duh! If you want to learn more about Amateur radio (or any other hobby, for that matter) search out a long time prectitioner, and ask him. Anybody that has been in a hobby for a long time will be more than willing to delve into the various mysteries of his or her hobby with an interested listener. That's an elmer. If you want more, hire a teacher. Don't criticize the Elmers's methods, at least until you've digested what he said.

[kb7uxe]

Greetings from Dan, kb7uxe..

OK, wazza "LID" ..--..
Can someone provide history and eveloution of the term "LID" please..

Hearing folks call each other "LIDs" makes me wonder.
Was "LID" some guys name ?
or perhaps "Little Idiot Doing cw" ?
Wuz it a term that came about durring the war
on a long cold night time flight on a B-17 or a B-29 ..--..

I juz can't seem to find it in Websters...
Here's yer chance... Elmer me...
Tanks, Dan kb7uxe
p.s. you can find me on 3.696 mosty evenings sometime between 7pm and midnight PST.
Give me a call, I'll send at YOUR speed.
and I'll talk to anyone, even you fellers!

AR

[KC8UAN]

I guess I am guilty of being a CW lid. I have had a grand total of two QSO's by CW. I have always been interested in CW and still practice sending and copying daily after upgrading from Tech. I have been following common advice to use a straight key but I have found that sending on the air to a live human being is quite different than to a box of parts. When I get on, I try to use proper procedure, use the appropriate abbreviations and prosigns correctly so as to avoid long replies, and promptly get nervous and screw up by obliterating their call or whatever. Sending slower sometimes makes it worse. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Thanks to the very polite operator who tried to work me on 40 meters Sunday morning 2/23/03 even though I really mucked it up trying to maintain a steady speed. You are the reason I keep working at CW! 73 DE KC8UAN

You can not win! You are flammed if you do and you are flammed if you dont.


Everyone has to start from the bottom and everyone makes mistakes, tis life.

I supose you was a lid one day http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I just have to make a reply to this on a couple of points.

1: A lid is NOT someone who makes honest mistakes, as a previous person said, it's an obnoxious, impolite know-it-all. Certainly not someone who makes an honest mistake and is learning - I hope I NEVER stop learning.

2: I've found this discussion about staight key vs paddles to learn on interesting. I've been a ham since late 60's or early 70's. I was a 5 wpm tech who could never grasp the code. I finally passed the 13wpm in '93 - couldn't really copy 13wpm, just had a good day. I had no interest in code other than a pathway to HF bands. about 8 months ago I developed an interest in learning code - to use on qrp rigs mostly. After 8 months of study - pretty consitant at 4-5 days per week, short sessions of 15-20 minutes each, I'm finally up to a good honest 10wpm receiving. Now for the point I'm wishing to make: I used a straight key in trying to send - HARD!!! I just don't have that "musical" ability that code seems to require. A set of paddles and I'm comfortable sending. I still make mistakes - that's why I'm not on the air much. I pratice sending and allowing my computer to copy as thought it were an "on the air" signal. That allows me to see how well the spacing for letters are.

The person that says you MUST use a straight key because with paddles you don't learn if an "A" is .- or ..- is missing one point - IF you can copy, then you know how many dit's come after a dah for each letter/number. Perhaps a person may well have the speed set higher than they are comfortable with in order to push his/her self the never ending quest for higher speed - isn't that how we've been told to do it?

Thanks for reading,

Ken H>
K9FV

[NX4X]

LID? My, how easily that term has been tossed around! I, for one, take offense to it... perhaps that's one reason why I haven't logged that many cw qsos. Working cw is intimidating enough to a new person, don't you think? Does it have to be made even MORE intimidating by yelling at us because we don't have a fluid, graceful fist like some other people? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Please allow me to extend a very warm and welcoming invitation to all friendly cw ops, both good fists and bad, anybody who is willing to teach or to learn in a FRIENDLY, NON-CRITICAL environment... come join FISTS: The International Morse Preservation Society. http://www.fists.org There's even a Code Buddy program to help out people who want to improve their skills, and you don't have to be a FISTS member to participate.

Our mottos: "Accuracy Transcends Speed." "Courtesy At All Times." "When You've Worked a FIST, You've Worked A Friend." Trust me, they're all true.

Even though I know it still exists, I am saddened to see such an elitist discussion going on in amateur radio. A thread such as this should have never even made it to the board.

73 es 88 to all who care,
Melanie - AG4VG, ex KG4RBH
FISTS# 9333

[jerryc]

Calling names... how childish! I mean, good grief, there is no pleasing some of you folks.
You want to keep the code, but rather than keeping your damn trap shut, you want to
automatically label a new OP a lid, maybe even make him feel so unwanted he wont even
try again!. This just makes my blood boil... I wanted to be a HAM for nearly 20 years,
and not a single Elmer in sight. Had to teach myself everything... CW included... and yes
I use it, and feel it needs to remain (lets not rehash that dead horse), but this was no
thanks to ANYONE but MYSELF. Yes I tried to join a club, but because of officer
infighting (physical fighting) I made one meeting and never went back. Then one day I
read about the KOCH method of learning CW, that and FARNSWORTH... all the time
not a single Elmer in sight! Writing disparaging remarks about struggling new hams no
doubt... cause they sure the hell were not offing to help! Trust me, I’m not alone. I just
read the biography for another ham struggling the same as I did... right here in QRZ.COM
Why not read his bio yourself....W3RCS, I don’t
know him, but I can tell you I’ve been were he’s at. I’m a rather young compared to
many I meet on the air, only 35, and If you don’t want a legacy, fine run use new
struggling hopeful hams off.... and the FCC can just reallocate the entire HAM bands to
private industry.

I must admit, most CW OP’s I’ve met are indeed supportive, helpful and want to see me
grow and excel in the hobby and CW, so I wonder... who is the real LID... struggling
HAM or the HAM who can only point the finger and label others.

I'm generally pretty thick skinned, but just gotta wonder how many new HAMS, HAMS wanting to upgrade, and Struggling HAMS your remarks just ran off!

Peace and 73,
N9XMX
Jerry

[w0aew]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jerryc @ Feb. 24 2003,12:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wanted to be a HAM for nearly 20 years,
and not a single Elmer in sight. #[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Having a mentor (elmer) is extremely helpful. Back when I started (when the dinosaurs walked the earth), my elmer, WA5BYV (sk), loaned me code records to help me learn CW, counseled me on buying that used Hallicrafters SX-111 receiver, showed me how to tune in W1AW practice sessions, helped me practice with a code oscillator, and on and on, all though my novice days and afterwards.

After getting licensed, my first tremulous QSO was with a Wisconsin novice, and we were afloat in a sea of other novices all sending what we thought was CW at a variety of slow speeds. You soon lost whatever key fright you had when supported by others of similar background, and together we made it, helped by the occasional higher-class licensees who made forays into that Sargasso Sea of syrupy senders.

If I were starting these days and had an interest in CW, I'd be very intimidated moving around with the seasoned ops right from the get go. My hat is off to those with the courage to keep slinging those dits and dahs under these conditions. It's a fun mode (eventually) and is fairly easy to build equipment for if you're interested in such things.

I think the fellow who started this thread wasn't casting asparagus on the new ops but was merely advising them to walk before they run. Use a hand pump, send slowly (even if you can copy faster), and concentrate on sending as accurately as possible. Off the air, play with the paddles and transceiver keying controls until you get the hang of them.

None of us was born knowing this stuff. 73 and dit dit!

[W8FAX]

Even ops who have been at it a long while fall into bad habits using code. Ever try to copy the code a feller sends that seem to have 27 characters in each word?? Or words that are just a stream of dits and dahs that make no sense? Or a call sign that is unknown because the op sends the whole thing as one word or group ?? Easy traps to fall into. A good idea is to take a book and send a paragraph while recording it. Wait a couple of days and then sit down and copy it. Is that ME??? Surely NOT....must be sumthin' wrong here..........Another good practice is one of these spiffy de-coders or a computer program that will de-code. See if it can de-code your sending. If not, keep trying. It is usually spacing that most ops have a problem with. Many times we hear 10 WPM fists trying to send at 20 wpm. This results in all of those extra dits, including all the ones you have to send to try and correct the extra ones you sent...etc...etc. DON'T buy a bug and try to slow it down or use it until you can copy at the same speed you can send at. Bugs have often been refferred to as "dit generators". If you can sit down and do the book thing with a couple of paragraphs with no mistakes, and then copy it later, it's time to get on the air with your bug or paddles. Good code is EASY to copy, and your speed will increase as you learn timing and spacing that only comes with practice. GET ON THE AIR. There is NO better practice than a straight key and a rig. That was the idea of the Novice ticket. Now we gotta do it on our own. Good luck to those trying. Just KEEP PRACTICING and one day you will find you have developed a "swing", and you didnt even know it. Keep yer dits up.....73.....Al/W8FAX

[W8FAX]

By The Way.........there used to be articles now and the in QST that gave advice about your "Novice ACCENT". This was usually an article that pointed out how new generals could be spotted by the code they sent. Things such as excessive use of punctuation, excessive call sign useage, incorrect use of "Q" signals and pro-signs. I believe but am not sure, that Lew McCoy did a couple of these articles. I did hear a poor feller in a DX pile-up repeatedly asking the DX to QRS. (slow down). Obviously this was a good ha ha generator, but the guy just didn't know, and all he got was flack about it. Anyhow.......listening a lot on the air is good practice also......AL/W8FAX

[kd5icr]

Well as I read these post I am trying to get it straight.What is the topic again? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Here is the way I am learning.I have the general calss book because that is were I plane on goin I also have a tape set done by wb6noa you can get them at any radio shack.I also listen to w1aw as well as all the other "ops"
on the other bands. I was told that the way I am doing it is very sound.I WILL get my upgrade and I WILL go on the air I know that I will find someone to have a qso with at my speed.It is a fact if you want to play with the "big dogs" you will have to get faster. I do not see the point in going 30+ wpm.If you can Killer I will at some point meet you there.Untill then I am just going to keep on keepin on with my learning.
73 kd5icr aka Bill

[iphil]

If I may, here's how I increase my code speed from 5 to 13 to 20 wpm. I did this doing two things, religiously, virtually every day. First, listen to code tapes. Gordon West's are the best. I did this on the drive to and from work. Second, get on the air and make at least two qsos; I did at least on i the morning and one in the evening. To help me out I drafted out a script. I had about three exchanges already scripted out and just filled in the other person's info into the script. My info, name, qth, power, antenna, and the greeting and ending were already on the script, so when it came time for me to send, I just sent from the printed copy. This helped me to eliminate mistakes from trying to remember what I was sending and where I was in a message. After a few months, my speed, both copying and sending increased. Try it. But most of all, get on the air and keep trying. Phil KB9CRY

[K2WH]

All of the problems with CW that have been debated here and and other forums, can be solved by simply forgetting about CW and go to the more efficient digital modes such as PSK31, MFSK etc. #And as an extreme measure, (God forbid), just pick up a mic and use phone.

I always thought the CW crowd had it together. #CW ops always speak of the comradere amongst CW ops, the lack of a language barrier, it's a universal language etc. However, from all indications the much touted purity of the CW fraternity is heavily tainted with morons, lids, myopic OT's (don't own a mic), no other mode really exists for me operators and other assorted trailer trash. #At least that's what I get from the bickering and differing opinions here.

You guys really need to clean up your act. #And I thought phone was in trouble.

K2WH

[ka3qbq]

I don't agree with the proposition that the lower code requirement has led to a noticeable increase in poor fists. Long before the reduced code requirement it was possible hear folks on the air rattling along at 15 WPM or higher with poor fists.

I think the worst ones are from those using bugs. And especially annoying to me are those who send with an extremely high dash-to-dot ratio, which produces Morse characters in staccato. They’re completely unreadable.

-Dave, KA3QBQ

[W4PC]

Many of the hams that have a 'perfect' fist aren't sending CW by hand, but by keyboard. #They'll use TNCs (i.e. Kantronics, Timewave or MFJ), the CW keyboards from MFJ and other vendors or use some of the software programs that turn your PC or Mac into a keyer or that access the TNCs with split screens and buffers.

Nothing wrong with that either, many of the older hams don't have a steady hand anymore, and still have a love for CW, so they use the 'non-key' options to still be able to have QSOs. #

For newer hams that are learning CW, the same principle can apply.

[KB8EFD]

I thank all of you for all the posts. I love the tape recorder idea. (Why didn't I think of that?) The main reason I have never worked much CW was because I am such a lousy CW operator - didn't want to embarass myself or try the patience of others. My job is to find my operating flaws so I can clean them up.
Years ago I saw this written - somewhere: 'If every bird waited until it knew how to sing perfectly, there would be no birdsongs.'
Thanx 73, AB8PX, formerly KB8EFD

[kk4ken]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KG4ROT @ Feb. 21 2003,11:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Advice heeded. I am fascinated with cw and I am still an incredibly bad fist and copier. I have been guilty of getting on the air and just totally hosing up the whole deal. I am starting to play with MorseMail, and that is quite fun. You hit me with a guilt trip and I had to comment. Anyway, thanks for the thread. #I have not quit..I only am regrouping and practicing.
Much fine cw to ya,
Terry
w4rot[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Wow. #I picked up MorseMail a while back. #I still can't believe that I tried to use that to learn code. #Heh. #I guess now that I actually *know* the code, I can use it to practice my speed up some. #Send me a MorseMail sometime and I will reply to it. #=)

KK4KEN

My Callsign! (http://undrhil.servehttp.com/morse.mp3)

PS - You can also use MorseMail in AIM, did you know that? #It's all copy and paste, so key your message and then copy and paste it into AIM to have a live CW contact over the air ... well, kind of. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #Or get an external keyer with a speaker and record .wav files of you keying and then send those in email. #Be careful ... the slower you are, the larger the files will be. #=)

[wa0ttn]

MorseMail Wow! I'd never heard of it. I just downloaded it and sent a message off to a old buddy of mine. Really cool!

As for my comments on the topic of discussion, I'm of the keep-the-code camp. As many others have stated, I believe that CW is still relevant if, for no other reason, it's fun. I don't operate it as much as I used to before PSK31 came along, but I still do it once in a while for the diversion. I get great satisfaction and feeling of accomplishment after every CW QSO. And when camping running QRP, you just can't beat it for entertainment around the campfire.

I do have concerns about lowering the entry standards too far, however. I'm actually pleased that the Morse standard was lowered to 5 wpm, encouraging a lot of new folks to join in this fun hobby. But dropping the one remaining standard bar seems to me like dropping the driving exam portion of the drivers license test. Well, maybe that's not a great analogy, but you get my drift.

Regarding the discussion on keyers, I would also encourage learning on a straight key. My Elmer refused to let me play with his electronic keyer until I made General (13 wpm in those days). I'm really greatful for that because now I can always fall back to the straight key if need be (in fact, I still can't drive an iambic key! ).

I recall, every once in a while, when I went in to take my General exam. One of the guys brought in his keyer - a bulky tube-model box with a big old paddle hanging off it. It must have taken him 5 minutes to get the thing all set up on the examiner's desk, then get it warmed up. When he finally did get it working, he was so spazzed out that he couldn't send for beans. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #It was laughable, except that the rest of us were waiting our turn and more than a little ticked off at this moron. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Needless to say, he failed the sending part, apparently was so dependent on the keyer that he couldn't do 13 wpm on a straight key, and left with his tail between his legs.

Ah, but I digress... Anyway, I'm pleased to see the discussions on both sides of all of these issues. Yes, I know this whole CW debate goes on ad nauseum, but at least we're talking about it.

73 to all,
Dave, WA0TTN

[ke4qdm]

It Must Be Perfect!!!!

I believe that is the name of the primary post above. Unless your CW is perfect you can't play here. Did you ever think it was called the Novice Portion of the band for a reason? Here's one for you, unless you can copy and send at lets say 90 wpm you can't get on the air. How's that for arbitrary.

We as Radio Operators should encourage and not discourage those in of our ranks to learn and use the code. Code is a facinating method of communication. But cw ops are slowly dwindling in numerbrs and it's because of the intolerance of some who are a little to vocal about what's wrong with everyone elses code speed. We need to start mentoring others in the use of cw and for many that will mean working with them on the air. If you don't have time to mentor others and help keep code from dying out, then don't complain about the problem. As they say, "If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem."

I believe in the code. I'd like to see it around for a long time. But, the only way this will happen is through hard work and paitence on the part of everyone.

David Peterson,
KE4QDM.

[KG4QFW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K8AG @ Feb. 19 2003,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lately, however, I seem to hear a great number of very sloppy fists, and not always in the novice band segments. #I believe that it may be due in part to the lowering of the code speed requirements to 5 WPM.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Ya gotta start somewhere. I'm a skilled musician and we have a saying that "practice makes better". But with all the debate over dropping the code requirement, I think it's interesting that many experienced operators say "Since I had to learn the code so should everyone else" but don't have the time or patience to coach newcomers.

We're very fortunate to have an "old-timer" in my town that will slow down to what must be painfully slow sending for him and will patiently repeat any missed characters or abbreviations. If it hurts to listen, I'm sorry. There are those of us that really WANT to learn and use the code, whether it remains a requirement or not.

There were many good replies to the original post. I'm a new ham, having gotten my Tech in October 2002 and my General just last month.

I was fortunate enough to find a code buddy from FISTS who was willing to take me under his wing and have a CW QSO with me not long ago. That was a scary thing to me, never having talked or even practiced with a real human on the other end before. I studied on my own for the code test and practiced using a code oscillator and the G4FON software. My palms were sweaty and my wrist a bit sore after that first QSO, but it was fun! Now, I'm just waiting for my workload to ease up so my code buddy and I can have another QSO... hi.

As a new General, sure, I'm slow at Code. I'm new. That is nothing to apologize for. I can read about 8 WPM and send faster, but I don't send faster than 8 WPM. I have been reading about CW abbreviations that are commonly used. I do much more listening than talking. So I think I'm doing the right things.

One thing I have come across, though, especially on Internet forums, is a pernicious and deplorable attitude amongst some established hams that if you didn't take the 13 or 20 WPM code exams, then you should not be on the air until you can work faster. The 5 WPM newbies coming fresh out of the VE exams are often anxious to try out the code, then they get smacked with this "we're superior, because it was HARDER for us" attitude than emanates from these established hams like bad B.O. #

Not all of us were around when the tests required 13 and 20 WPM, and us newbies had nothing to do with the code requirements getting dropped to 5 WPM anyway. We are working with what we've got.

It's a great thing when an old-timer will take the time to help out the newcomers. I can't tell you how much I appreciated that initial QSO. It made ALL the difference in my wanting to keep on "keeping on" with CW, or possibly shrinking back from ever using it for lack of understanding and patience from those who don't want to answer a CQ sent out from a slow hand.

What's so hard about this? Teach- don't preach. No one learns code from listening to others complaining about how the standards have gone so far downhill, that the tests of today are turning out a bunch of "appliance operators", et cetera, ad nauseum. All that anyone learns from hearing complaints like that is resentment. But we WILL learn how to send CW well through practice.

[ac7go]

I think it would be a good idea to remember that newcomers are just that. It probably isn't necessary to criticize them.

Usually, when I am tuning through the band and hear a CQ, I don't answer if the code sounds terrible, as it does with inexperienced users of bugs, or with those using a straight key who don't seem to have a knack for timing. I am sure I am not the only person who is selective this way - defective keying is hard to copy, and it can be terribly irritating.

So I suppose a lot of "natural selection" goes on all the time. Those whose keying is decent will get better fast, through practice with interested operators on the other end of the ether. And those whose keying is bad probably will have fewer QSO's - so few in some cases that they will lose interest, unfortunately.

Just a thought. Hope to meet you on the air some time.

Max Nielsen AC7GO

[KG4ROT]

Just a parting comment from the new fist perspective. I have really enjoyed this thread. I have a big problem with attention span and probably will forget what my original intent was by the the end of my comment, but I think it has offered me a few more pieces of info that supports practice, sending and receiving cw. It helps me a get along. I really do not know why I even like cw, but I do. So the advice, the comments and the opinions are all worth while, to me anyway. I think I may have made a few friends as well...imagine that. Now what was I talking about?
Pluggin along,
Terry
w4rot

[n0jwa]

All right lets find a good solution to the problem. Lets have a test for those who want to do cw. Just as we have a test for the other elements. Then no-one is left out and everyone should be happy. Lets make it fair for everyone ok

[K6LEC]

Sending and receiving CW is a very special skill that does take a lot of practice to become proficient (some of us require more practice than others)!

I don't think any of us can truthfully say that we are "always" free of mistakes. Your critique of slower or less capable CW operators reminds me of the mobile stations I hear daily on the 2 meter repeaters cussing out the incapable and #!x*& drivers on the road who shouldn't be allowed to have a license! While that may be true in some cases, again, we are all guilty at times of imperfection.

What I am conerned about, however, is the apparent lack of new operators interested in operating CW! I rarely make contact with younger people. In fact, almost all of my qso's on CW are with operators 50 years and above!
All of us started somewhere. I think we need to try and encourage people of all ages to discover how much fun code can be, rather than be hyper-critical of their slower speed or poor sending habits.

We are all "amateur" operators for a number of reasons, and I believe that at the core of this wonderful hobby is the desire to share our universal need to communicate in an open and caring way with others in the world.
Best 73'
Len

[ka9sox]

Props to the original author!

Having been off the air for a few years with career constraints, the first place I went getting back on the air was the "old" 40M novice segment to get back up to speed.

I didn't find many novices, but plenty of Generals and Extras....and yes, after a few QSO's I was back to my previous speeds, thanks to those hams!

Count me in as far as mining the old novice segments for any ham wishing to work on their CW skills. I don't care how many mistakes you make...as long as you are looking to improve. If folks read and take heed to all the previous post's advice, it will be a better QSO. Look for you on the bands http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Sadly, I find far more oddballs in the lower portion of the bands, (except for 30M).

I may have been off for a few years, but "CQ DX" used to mean "Long distance stations, off my continent only", or something like that.

My first antenna back on the bands is a full wave 40M quad loop at 71'. Works KILLER for DX....but:

I call "CQ DX", and I constantly get replies from Alameda, CA....Beaumont, TX, Toronto, Canada, and others, many times QRM'ing over the signal of the DX I was trying to contact.

It used to be rude to call ragional stations who were specifying "CQ DX"....maybe that has changed?

KA9SOX

[kb1gqx]

Please don't blame those of us who obtained General class or Amateur Extra class licences under the new 5 wpm code requirement. After all, we didn't make the rules. Surely you wouldn't expect us to boycott the higher level classes just because the standards have been relaxed!

[n8zux]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #You know what ? #I will say there are books out there that anyone can buy on the subject of Morse Code, I bought a book on-line store, it was an older book and gave pointers on how to correctly set up your keyer, I find that any given subject, just read up on it every person has a different view of things, but each idea or thought may have GR8 value, I think that what people are maybe getting excited about CW and run out to their local hamfest or radio store and buy the most expensive elaborate keyer, then hook it up to their rig.

probably why noone is being a good elmer to these people and may I sugguest to everyone in the community teaching Morse Code is to also do at club meetings show the proper way to operate CW, how to buy and use a keyer, I am happy with the Brass keyer I bought. But I am still working on my code.

Hey gang also try doing a semminar on CW at the Hamfests, you may get a few more people to attend if you advertise that in a Positive manner, even public events lotta talk of using FM & Simplex how about running CW low power at public events, besides Feild Day.?? just some thoughts to throw in the post.. besides that you can use that as secured communications as well as packet , people using scanners are FM and some limited AM on Aircraft I love finding ways around problems.

73 SK

[WZ7W]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ka9sox @ Mar. 01 2003,13:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><snip>

I call "CQ DX", and I constantly get replies from Alameda, CA....Beaumont, TX, Toronto, Canada, and others, many times QRM'ing over the signal of the DX I was trying to contact. #

It used to be rude to call ragional stations who were specifying "CQ DX"....maybe that has changed?

KA9SOX[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Whoops. I've been being rude. I have called lots of non-dx that were calling cq-dx. I give a wait if I don't hear anybody, nor do they answer anybody I've been calling them. I just figured state-rst-bye might be reassuring if their cq was just skunked. Guess not, if they had wanted this I guess they could leave off the dx. So I'm learning.

[WZ7W]

I think the way to break the plateau is to install the rig mobile, and have QSOs while driving. It puts the code over in a higher speed part of the brain with habits, talking, and alot of unconcious processes. Plus it's exciting to try and do both well...

[wd6fwe]

Being a 25 year very accomplished lid, I feel I can say that CW is definatly for those who can do it. When I got my novice licience in 1977 I found very quickly that you do not send faster than you can recieve at least if you want to be able to understand what you are hearing. My recieve capibility then was about 5-8 at the very best I ever got it any faster after trying fot 5 years before I gave up on it. Never did get any faster and not for lack of practice as i spent 20 hours a week on the air then, listening mostly and trying to get it faster. code tapes did me no good as I memorized them by the 3rd or 4th pass. whenever i would send i would use a srraight key ans withen a few min of starting to send my sending speed would start creeping up until i was told to slow down. I was told many times that 25wpm with a straight key was very hard to do but I was doing it. still could NOT listen to it coming in and transfer it to paper. Ended up by the end of my code career using my pet to send and me trying to recieve. Finely gave it up completely the day I worked out a qso robot program for the pet and forgot to turn it off while I went to work, and had over 100 qso's and 36 states in the log when I got back. I kept the printout for many years as a warning not to leave pet compurer running the qso robot.
Worked my way up to the Xband stuff and everything a tech could do and had fun doing it. and got my extra a few years ago after the droped the speed down to 5 WPM. Not that i really need to do so as 10 meters is as low as i have been since 1982 and only phone, NO cw but i really did enjoy cw just could not copy. I spent at least 1 field day on 20 cw as the key but someone else had to tell me who I was replying to. gave me the call and boom out it would go. even confused them cause i was outdoing them with the straight key. and totally deaf as they put it.
Don WD6FWE

[n7scq]

I do agree with you 100 percent and to others that may be unfortunate, If new amateurs decide to get on the air and try their morse code skills on the air actually thats "bad practice", it takes lots and lots of practice to get a good fist going, for me it took quite a while and it did not happen overnight by any means, devices like code practice oscillators is a very useful tool next to your soldering iron and devices like that should be looked at first before you think about hooking up the bug to your rig and having at it. Still if they want to get on the air another alternative that can be considered until their fist skills sharpen could be a multimode TNC that has morse capabilities....thats makes it easy for the amateur on the other end, the sending speed is always adjustable and it's a great tool to sharpen your copying skills, the trick to that?? turn the monitor off!
73 N7SCQ / AG ... _._ ..._._

[W4AMW]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K8AG @ Feb. 19 2003,22http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I try to spend some time in the novice CW portions of the bands at some time during every operating session. #I think it is important to promote their interests and sometimes I get to be an op's first qso.

Lately, however, I seem to hear a great number of very sloppy fists, and not always in the novice band segments. #I believe that it may be due in part to the lowering of the code speed requirements to 5 WPM.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Last year I returned to ham radio and CW after 10 years off the air. I noticed the changes.There is lalot ess CW activity on 80 and 10. There is very little activity in the Novice bands compared to 10 years ago.
And the CW sending...! In general, I think it is worse than 10, 20 or certainly 30 years ago. The poor ops are sending too quickly, not too fast. They leave no spacing between characters, between words, or between thoughts. They remind me of the people in church who get up to read scripture or make some announcements and dash through their reading in a hurried monotone that hampers understanding. Their main (only?) concern is getting through so they can sit down. I can copy good CW at 20-25 wpm and I'm still practicing. But since I have returned I have tried to "talk" to some ops at 13-15 wpm (includingt some FISTS members) and couldn't copy more than 2/3 of what they were "saying" because their characters and their words were jammed together like they were trying to send a Zip file. Their mantra should be, "Slow down and say more!"
Don't even get me started on keyer weighting or bug "swing" that turns Morse into a whole other communications medium. It might be "distinctive" but it sure isn't intelligible.
Whew! Now I feel better. Please don't chalk up my rantings to a "senior moment." I have been licensed 43 years but I got my first ticket at age 14.

W4AMW

[yv6azc]

“LID n 1 a cover for the open top of a pot, box or other container that can be lifted up or removed #2 #an EYELID 3 put the (tin) lid on infml to ruin or put an end to (an activity, a person’s hope, etc.), esp. by being the last in a set of misfortunes. 4 take the lid off to make known the unpleasant truth about (something); EXPOSE: a film that takes the lid off the world of organized crime.”

That’s what my Longman dictionary says. Since my English is really poor, could somebody please explain to me the meaning of this word? It’s been extensively used and interpreted on several posts and I have no knowledge about how it can be related to CW ops.
Seriously, I’d appreciate any help.
Many thanks
73 José - yv6azc

[WA9SVD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (yv6azc @ Mar. 03 2003,09:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">“LID n 1 a cover for the open top of a pot, box or other container that can be lifted up or removed #2 #an EYELID 3 put the (tin) lid on infml to ruin or put an end to (an activity, a person’s hope, etc.), esp. by being the last in a set of misfortunes. 4 take the lid off to make known the unpleasant truth about (something); EXPOSE: a film that takes the lid off the world of organized crime.”

That’s what my Longman dictionary says. Since my English is really poor, could somebody please explain to me the meaning of this word? It’s been extensively used and interpreted on several posts and I have no knowledge about how it can be related to CW ops.
Seriously, I’d appreciate any help.
Many thanks
73 José - yv6azc[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
"Lid" is a term used to describe a person with poor operating skills. The term has been in use since the early days of Amateur Radio, but I do not know the original source or reason.

But IMHO, a "Lid" can improve his skills, but he (or she) needs Elmering. Work the Lid, and make CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. For example, tell him politely that he's running letters or words together. I doubt he is doing it deliberately or even realizes it! And all the code practice in the world (off the air) won't make a better operator, just an operator that makes the same mistakes at a faster rate! There's no feedback about his sending. I'm sure most people working CW think they sound great, and if no one points out the problem(s) they will never improve.
73
Larry WA9SVD

[yv6azc]

Larry,
Many thanks your explanation. I appreciate your help.

José - yv6azc

[W5HTW]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W4AMW @ Mar. 03 2003,08:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Last year I returned to ham radio and CW after 10 years off the air. I noticed the changes.There is lalot ess CW activity on 80 and 10. There is very little activity in the Novice bands compared to 10 years ago.
And the CW sending...! In general, I think it is worse than 10, 20 or certainly 30 years ago. The poor ops are sending too quickly, not too fast. They leave no spacing between characters, between words, or between thoughts. They remind me of the people in church who get up to read scripture or make some announcements and dash through their reading in a hurried monotone that hampers understanding. Their main (only?) concern is getting through so they can sit down. I can copy good CW at 20-25 wpm and I'm still practicing. But since I have returned I have tried to "talk" to some ops at 13-15 wpm (includingt some FISTS members) and couldn't copy more than 2/3 of what they were "saying" because their characters and their words were jammed together like they were trying to send a Zip file. Their mantra should be, "Slow down and say more!"
Don't even get me started on keyer weighting or bug "swing" that turns Morse into a whole other communications medium. It might be "distinctive" but it sure isn't intelligible.
Whew! Now I feel better. Please don't chalk up my rantings to a "senior moment." I have been licensed 43 years but I got my first ticket at age 14.

W4AMW[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Of course, being a member of FISTS is no assurance one HAS a good fist! #It is an organization that promotes the use of CW, but I don't think it offers any insurance against those who can't use CW very well.

Just yesterday I was listening in the 20 meter FISTS area, around 14055 or so, and heard one fellow using a keyer whose "6" was a dash and six dots. #Sometimes a dash and five dots. #That is confusing to someone who has to stop his copying and think "Hey, that isn't a Morse character!" # His call sign had the letter X in it, and that was often but not always sent as a BT. #And when he sent THE it came out T5E. #Almost all the rest of his code was fine. #He handled "B" OK with no extra dits. #

Another fellow was sending CQ FISB. # I had to think about that one, too. #CQ FISB?? #Oh, yes, the "B" is actually a T and an S run together. #

And still a third guy was sending CQ CQ CQ DE QRP KX17ABC KX17ABC K # Huh? #Is 'QRP" now a call sign? #Well, I can see the logic, but it isn't 'standard operating procedure.' #And as I have said before, when we don't speak the same language, we don't communicate. #Without standards, it becomes Babylon.

The fellow with the extra dits? #I sent him an email explaining, nicely, what I was hearing. #I haven't heard from him, but even as I sent it, I wondered if he would take it constructively, in the sense it was intended, or if he would start griping about the OFs who "think they know it all." # Or will he just learn to send 6 properly?

I agree. #Code is generally sloppier today. #I hear people sending at 10 WPM or so, that I really can't get what they are trying to say, honestly. #And I have been a ham for nearly 50 years, and a professional CW operator as well (for the government.) #When I hear a good fist at 10 WPM, I enjoy the contact with him. #I don't mind a contact at 6 WPM, to be honest, if the code sounds right. #But when the sender is losing spaces between words, and has his timing way off, it is difficult, and all too many times I will just turn the dial, as I know I can't copy him, so why bother to try a QSO? # I'd like to help him learn better code, but if I can't communicate with him, or if his attitude is that he already knows all he wants to know, then why should I bother? #

On the other hand, I do not want to scare him off the CW bands! #I want him to want to improve, not to run away and hide. #The fellow I sent the email to -- will he give up CW because he was criticized, even tastefully? #(I think it was tastefully.) #I'd hate to be responsible for that. #But when everyone does it "his own way" not caring if we use 6 dits or 7 dits, or if we say "your" for "you're" #- and they are not even close to the same meaning - then we have lost the ability to speak to each other.

Learn what the characters sound like, and make yours sound that way, too. If you have to slow down to do it, then please do. But keep at it - don't give up.

73
Ed

[ke2iv]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif


Now this one takes the cake!

Here, we usually have the CW forever crowd whining about the possibility of no-code requirements and how that will lead to the inevitable decline of civilization and return us all to cave dwelling. #But, now, even beyond this gripe - we've got a guy complaining because he doesn't like the quality of the CW that people ARE sending! #As the kids say, "Duh?"

I've been a ham for 40 years (i.e. I'm not a "newbie", OM) and I've grown extremely weary of listening to the CW once and forever crowd. #They scare off too many folks who would be a great addition to ham radio because of their fixation on an outdated and useless mode! #No one except for hams use CW for anything anymore! #

It's well past time to get over it! #CW is but one of many interests in ham radio - and not even a dominant one. #And no one in the real world gives a darn about what are the correct CW "protocols" for cripes sake! (So much for the guy sending his "C"'s as a shorthand for "yes"! )

I look forward to the day when they finally pull the plug on CW as a licensing requirement altogether. #Then the CW crowd will have to "sell" their interest on the basis of being a welcoming bunch of "good guys" instead of being a crowd of complaining old, holier than thou, cranks!
#http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KA2LIM]

Pratice, Pratice, Pratice and then Pratice some more.

[kc7kpa]

What a terrible thing to call some one who is just trying to enjoy their hobby. A lid is someone that is deliberatly causing interferance and trouble on the bands. Not some one that is trying to better themselves on the cw portion of the band. One should think about the names one calls another.
Kindest Personel Regards
Karl

[WA9SVD]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc7kpa @ Mar. 04 2003,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What a terrible thing to call some one who is just trying to enjoy their hobby. A lid is someone that is deliberatly causing interferance and trouble on the bands. Not some one that is trying to better themselves on the cw portion of the band. One should think about the names one calls another.
Kindest Personel Regards
Karl[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Karl,
I didn't mean to label anyone. I just gave the vernacular definition of "Lid." Many of us may think of the term when we hear someone on the air that is not using good operating procedures or skills, but I, personally would never use the term over the air. And there are cases where poor operation is due to ignorance (which CAN be eliminated) rather than stupidity or simply refusing to follow good Amateur practice. (For example: here in So. Cal. the "gentleman's agreement" in following the band plan is 144.100 MHz to 144.300 MHz is reserved for SSB, and 144.200 is the national SSB calling frequency, with occasional nets in the 144.1 to 144.300 MHz. portion. What about the simplex station that comes onto a net frequency while the net is in session, or gets on the calling frequency and says "It's legal!")
I feel in such a situation, once informed about the band plan, and the fact that the frequency is used for specific modes, it's NOT approrriate to continue FM on the frequencies, and an FM station may often wipe out a weak signal (SSB/CW) signal that they don't even know exists. THAT'S the big reason to ask that FM stations not work in the SSB region of 2M (in this example) Although an FM receiver may not detect a signal, CW/SSB operators certainly may be hearing signals. So if someone doesn't know better, we should Elmer (educate) them in a polite and informative manner. If they continue to operate with less than "good Amateur Practice" than they ARE "Lids."

[ke2iv]

Bravo kc7kpa!

The very use of the word "Lid" was apparently intended by the author to raise controversy. #And he got what he wanted!

Let me add that in addition to my near 40 years as a ham I am a life member of the ARRL and I will do all that I can to continue to push organized ham radio to eliminate the CW requirement for licensing.

CW is an interesting (if antique) mode of operation that is, in itself, non-offensive and takes up minimimal band width. #But it has become a talisman of purity for too long for too many aging hams (er...who here isn't aging -- and to you youngsters -- yes, you are! ).

CW ops should be damned pleased that a lot of new hams still have an interest in an outdated mode. #But, that said, too many of the afficiandos of CW are still of a tiresome old mindset that it defines who is a "true" amatuer radio operators.

That is b.s. to say the least!

No one needs CW anymore. #It is not, and will never again be, a critical means of communication. #Imagine a fighter pilot over the m-east relying on the code to guide her to the target (yes --- her! ). #DigiCom, yes! #CW? No way!

I think it is long past that CW ops should become a hell of a lot more h