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AJ4QE
06-01-2009, 08:09 AM
I can imagine other valid reasons for having the official safety-paper amateur radio FCC licenses, but do any FCC rules require them to be presented, posted, or displayed?

KC2STS
06-01-2009, 10:53 AM
I'm not trying to be smart, but you should have a copy of FCC Part 97 Rules in your shack. Go to the FCC site, and maybe also the AARL site, and download the rules. Your answer should be there.
73,
Joe

KB2FCV
06-01-2009, 11:10 AM
I've never had to display my license. I would think though if you were in the position where you are getting asked about it (lets say you're pulled over by a police officer), it might help to have handy when you get asked what that radio is in your car. Otherwise, mine stays at home.

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 11:23 AM
You are supposed to have your original license (typically, the laminated wallet size portion) when you operate outside the U.S. borders or on other than U.S. territories. SOME countries will "accept" a photo copy. others will want to see the original.
You are also required to have your license in your station records, and immediately available at your operating position; even if not displayed in full view, it must be immediately available on demand by any FCC official.

In addition, when visiting another station (in particular, many club stations) you are expected to be able to show your license before being allowed to operate (as opposed to being a "third party" participant.) If the club or other station requires you produce your original license, that's their right, and they do not HAVE to accept a photocopy.

At one time, it was an FCC requirement that you have your license physically in your possession whenever you operate. It only seems tro make sense, and many OT's and OF's put that copy in their wallet as a matter of course, so it's always available.
It's amazing (and somewhat sad) that our club requires a guest to produce at least a copy of their license for verification before being allowed to operate our station as a guest operator; probably less than half the visitors have their license with them, and are unfortunately, not allowed to operate our station.

N5RFX
06-01-2009, 12:09 PM
The ARRL ULS FAQ (http://www.arrl.org/fcc/uls-qa.html) Explains it best:

Amateurs are not required to carry a copy of their license at all times as they were at one time; as long as your license data appears on the FCC database, that's sufficient. There are other times when you need to carry a copy of your FCC license, at a testing session or during foreign travel, for example.

Go to the FCC ULS (http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchLicense.jsp) page and enter the call sign to see a license.

As WA9SVD mentions, there may be instances where a club, might ask for a paper copy, that is their choice. I do not carry a copy of my license as the FCC ULS page is readily available.

73,
Mark N5RFX

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 12:22 PM
The ARRL ULS FAQ (http://www.arrl.org/fcc/uls-qa.html) Explains it best:


Go to the FCC ULS (http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchLicense.jsp) page and enter the call sign to see a license.

As WA9SVD mentions, there may be instances where a club, might ask for a paper copy, that is their choice. I do not carry a copy of my license as the FCC ULS page is readily available.

73,
Mark N5RFX

A reasonable point, but unfortunately, not all clubs have immediate access to the Internet and the FCC's ULS, which would be the ultimate authority IF identity could otherwise be verified (such as through a Driver's license.)

For verification outside the U.S., the original is often required. (If I recall correctly, even Canada "requires" the original; they may or may not immediately accept a photocopy if there is a question or issue.)

While not required, I carry mine as a matter of course. Local "office supply" stores will laminate a full sheet (8.5 x 11) for $1.00 or so; If I never need it, it amounts to 10 (+/-) cents a year; if I ever would need it, PRICELESS! :D

AB3FL
06-01-2009, 12:38 PM
I have mine framed in the shack. I have the mini one in my wallet.

Tom - AB3FL

K8ERV
06-01-2009, 01:08 PM
I keep a copy in my car in case I forget my call.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

WA4TM
06-01-2009, 01:35 PM
I keep a copy in my car in case I forget my call.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

I would never remember where it was in the car,, so I just get out and go around back and look at the license tag.. :D

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 02:06 PM
I have mine framed in the shack. I have the mini one in my wallet.

Tom - AB3FL

Ditto. Absolutely. Indubitably Etc. Etc. Etc. :rolleyes:

W5RB
06-01-2009, 02:18 PM
I shrunk mine to 70% using a copier , so it actually FITS in my wallet.

Russ , W5RB

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 02:20 PM
I keep a copy in my car in case I forget my call.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

I ALWAYS wear my ID card at our club station. just in case I forget.

Such as "Where am I?"
or "Who am I???"
"What time is it?"
"Why am I here and not working DX at home?"
"WHY am I dressed in a shirt and tie, and is it low or high tide?"

Even near "senior moments" can be embarassing.:p

K7JEM
06-01-2009, 02:29 PM
As others have pointed out, it serves very little purpose. The FCC doesn't require that you post it, show it, or really care if you have one. Unless you're traveling outside the country, there isn't much use, unless you personally just like to post such things.

The FCC relies on ULS now, that is the official source. If your license shows "canceled" or "revoked" on the ULS, it really doesn't matter if you have a paper license that shows otherwise. Conversely, if you have no paper license, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean that you are not licensed, or cannot operate. And the FCC won't ask you for it, they already know. We don't live in the 60's anymore, folks. That license is just a piece of paper.

Joe

N5RFX
06-01-2009, 02:34 PM
A reasonable point, but unfortunately, not all clubs have immediate access to the Internet and the FCC's ULS, which would be the ultimate authority IF identity could otherwise be verified (such as through a Driver's license.)

How would having a paper license verify identity?

73,
Mark N5RFX

KA7O
06-01-2009, 02:55 PM
It doesn't - that's what the Passport, ID chip or new Federally compliant driver's license or national ID card are for. For the truly paranoid - multi-facet biometrics can be accepted with each membership application.

License just says the person named has "these" privileges.

ID is a separate issue.

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 02:58 PM
How would having a paper license verify identity?

73,
Mark N5RFX

Never said it did. It does prove license; together with another photo ID, such as DL, it's reasonable verification at least of name; traditionally accepted long before the Internet and ULS. But without paper ID, many clubs can't even make a stab at licensure.
It's a trade off, of course, unless you immediately can verify driver's license photo ID AND FCC ULS; you have to make some assumptions.

KA4DPO
06-01-2009, 02:58 PM
I had mine tatooed on my butt.

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 03:06 PM
I had mine tatooed on my butt.

Somehow, I'm convinced we are all a##ured you have actually done so.:rolleyes:

K8MHZ
06-01-2009, 03:14 PM
Somehow, I'm convinced we are all a##ured you have actually done so.:rolleyes:

That was a bum joke, you wisecracker!

WS2L
06-01-2009, 03:21 PM
There is nothing difficult about having your license displayed in your shack and one in your wallet for when your operating mobile. They do send you 2 different size licenses, one small enough for the wallet and one that can be put in a frame if so wanted. I don't have my home license displayed but it is in my records and I do carry the original license in my wallet.

K7JEM
06-01-2009, 03:32 PM
There is nothing difficult about having your license displayed in your shack and one in your wallet for when your operating mobile. They do send you 2 different size licenses, one small enough for the wallet and one that can be put in a frame if so wanted. I don't have my home license displayed but it is in my records and I do carry the original license in my wallet.

I don't think the issue is if it is difficult, but rather is it required or even useful.

You gain nothing by posting it, or even having it in your possession, unless you are traveling outside the country.

Post it and carry it if you want. Don't do it if you don't want. It doesn't matter.

Joe

N7MYW
06-01-2009, 03:50 PM
I have actually had to show my license to an officer when pulled over for a light out. He saw the radio and asked about it. In my state, the police and fire have the option of using a ham operator and his gear during an emergency when their systems fail,etc. So he wanted to see my license as my plates are have my call on them. Glad I always have a laminated copy of my license wherever I go.

Jim

KE6REO
06-01-2009, 04:10 PM
Greetings, all.

K7JEM wrote: “I don't think the issue is if it is difficult, but rather is it required or even useful.

You gain nothing by posting it, or even having it in your possession, unless you are traveling outside the country.

Post it and carry it if you want. Don't do it if you don't want. It doesn't matter”.

It may not matter much to the FCC anymore but it sure is a matter of pride as a ham to be able to post my ticket at my station.

Also, in some cities local law enforcement has been given the green light to go after illegal CBers. This is true in the city where I live and this is the thing. If someone’s cable TV isn’t coming in just so one day and they should happen to reason that all their troubles are coming from that “tower” next door, all they have to do is call the cops out. I don’t even think they’d ask any questions (I doubt if they’ve the equipment or desire to differentiate between a legal radio and a piece of freeband garbage), I believe they just confiscate on the suspicion.
Another local ham told me once how his station equipment was almost confiscated by local police after they responded to an interference complaint from a neighbor. He’d said that even after showing officers his license they had to confer with superiors before they knew what to do.

So for that reason my license is framed and posted at my station along with the document detailing the exemption of licensed radio services from state and local enforcement, neatly tucked away in my station records right where I can get to it.

73,
Emrad

N2RJ
06-01-2009, 05:24 PM
My ham license is like a DXCC certificate. I put it on my wall simply for show and tell.

K8ERV
06-01-2009, 05:32 PM
I shrunk mine to 70% using a copier Russ , W5RB

I shrink mine in a paper press. Just gotta watch out for the wrinkles
.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

K0RGR
06-01-2009, 05:33 PM
About 8 states have restrictive 'scanner laws' that can affect hams. Here in Minnesota, we have the most anal retentive scanner law in the country in that regard. The law prohibits having any kind of mobile receiver capable of receiving 'public service' frequencies. There is an exemption, however, for licensed amateur radio operators. BUT, you must immediately show your license to any officer who requests it on demand, and failure to do so is a Gross Misdemeanor - on a par with a drunk driving arrest. So, what if your wife or kid is driving your car with the nice dualbander in it? According to the commander of our highway patrol, that would be a violation and they could end up in big trouble. Other states exempt them, too, but not this one. Efforts to make the law more reasonable have been crushed by the Law Enforcement lobby - weird since so many cops are hams here.

So, if you're driving through Minnesota or one of the other 7 places like this, you should have a copy of your license. Since you can print your own official copy from the FCC website, I don't see how the question of 'original vs. copy' can arise.

I've attached copies of my ham license to my dualbanders, and I have purposely avoided programming any public service frequencies in them.
All public service agencies in this state are migrating rapidly over to digital and I wish them well, because my analog receiver will not work for them anymore, so I'll have another defense if this ever comes up.

KR2D
06-01-2009, 05:51 PM
In New Jersey, amateur radio is specifically exempt from the cell phone law. Showing a police officer your paper license might be handy if questions arise.

The only time I ever had to show anyone my license was when I operated at W1AW.

AG3Y
06-01-2009, 07:28 PM
That ARRL statement quoted earlier said that it was not necessary to carry your license around with you, but when I went to operate W1AW as a guest operator, I was asked to show them my license before they would let me sit at one of the positions !

hmmmm ? ? ?

KL7AJ
06-01-2009, 07:36 PM
I can imagine other valid reasons for having the official safety-paper amateur radio FCC licenses, but do any FCC rules require them to be presented, posted, or displayed?


Because it looks extra cool on the wall. :)

K7UTA
06-01-2009, 08:06 PM
FWIW, when I received my paper from FCC, there was a wallet sized copy of the license at the bottom of the original doc.
All I did was cut on the dotted line and sealed the smaller license in plastic for protection.

WA9SVD
06-01-2009, 08:21 PM
There is nothing difficult about having your license displayed in your shack and one in your wallet for when your operating mobile. They do send you 2 different size licenses, one small enough for the wallet and one that can be put in a frame if so wanted. I don't have my home license displayed but it is in my records and I do carry the original license in my wallet.

MY GAWD!!! That's too logical even for Mr. Spock. :eek:

What more can I say? At our club, guests either have a physical copy of their license or not, to be determined whether or not they can be guest operators If the rule is applied uniformly, no one can complain.
Personally, in the U.S., I have the "wallet size" portion laminatedand in my wallet; the other portion is presently in a small frame in the same room from which I operate; else (or in addition) there's a copy of that in my "permanent" record which contains old logs, RF Exposure data, etc., etc., etc., as required by law. (YMMV, of course.;)

K9STH
06-01-2009, 09:25 PM
As SVD mentioned, keeping the original large sized copy of your license along with other station records such as r.f. exposure calculations is a very good idea. It is very easy to calculate the r.f. exposure for your station by going to the following link:

http://n5xu.ae.utexas.edu/rfsafety/

Read the directions closely and then enter the information for the maximum power that you can run on each band, mode, and antenna. Print the results for each calculation and then include the print-outs as part of your station records. I have done this for every band that I can operate (160, 80, 60, 40, 20, 17, 15, 12, 10, 6, 2, 1.25 meters and the 70 cm band) and for every mode that I use on those bands. It takes only a few minutes and once you have done the calculations and printed them out you have no worries if the FCC (or some other agency) contacts you. I keep the sheets in one of the pockets in the 3-ring binder that I use for my written log. If you don't keep a log then establish some thing as your permanent station records. You ARE required to keep certain information in your permanent records and you definitely should know where those records are kept.

Glen, K9STH

KD8DEY
06-01-2009, 11:47 PM
I had mine tatooed on my butt.

I Hope at least it's a Vanity call that you want to keep. A Cover over or re-do might be a pain in the ...............:D

AJ4QE
06-02-2009, 12:58 AM
Because it looks extra cool on the wall. :)

Actually, that wasn't one of the reasons. If I wanted a cool certificate to put on a wall, it would be:


8" x 10" or larger,
probably in landscape mode,
using a call sign font you could read from across the room,
borderless or not missing a large section of the border,
in color,

and so on.

I was thinking that the official paper license could serve as evidence that you might be a licensed ham when visiting Amateur Radio clubs, sort of like a "secret handshake". I also was thinking about the "when all else fails" slogan, and the official paper license might prove useful when the Internet is considered part of the "all else". The catch is that if the situation is severe enough, saving lives and property trumps proving you have a license.

I hadn't thought about the need for a license to operate in other countries, or the need to prove that your equipment is legal to others besides the FCC. I suppose having the official paper on you can have a strong influence on some authorities:
Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: [with a small wave of the hand holding the license] These aren't the radios you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the radios we're looking for.

ND5Y
06-02-2009, 02:06 AM
Since you can print your own official copy from the FCC website, I don't see how the question of 'original vs. copy' can arise.

No, you can't print an "official copy" from the FCC web site.
It only generates a "reference copy" that doesn't have the official FCC seal.
You can request a duplicate copy if you need one.

K7JEM
06-02-2009, 03:05 AM
Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: [with a small wave of the hand holding the license] These aren't the radios you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the radios we're looking for.

“Mos Eisley hamfest. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.”

KV6O
06-02-2009, 03:48 AM
License? We need a license? Oops! :p

Or, License? We don't need no stinking licence!

Steve
KV6O (licenses stored in the FCC's ULS system. I think.)

N1JBS
06-02-2009, 11:12 AM
As SVD mentioned, keeping the original large sized copy of your license along with other station records such as r.f. exposure calculations is a very good idea. It is very easy to calculate the r.f. exposure for your station by going to the following link:

http://n5xu.ae.utexas.edu/rfsafety/

Read the directions closely and then enter the information for the maximum power that you can run on each band, mode, and antenna. Print the results for each calculation and then include the print-outs as part of your station records. I have done this for every band that I can operate (160, 80, 60, 40, 20, 17, 15, 12, 10, 6, 2, 1.25 meters and the 70 cm band) and for every mode that I use on those bands. It takes only a few minutes and once you have done the calculations and printed them out you have no worries if the FCC (or some other agency) contacts you. I keep the sheets in one of the pockets in the 3-ring binder that I use for my written log. If you don't keep a log then establish some thing as your permanent station records. You ARE required to keep certain information in your permanent records and you definitely should know where those records are kept.

Glen, K9STH

I dont know what happened, but the link is dead....

As for operating at W1AW, I know Joe very well, so I dont need to show my license.

W9WD
06-02-2009, 03:48 PM
Our local exam persons require that you bring your original license and a copy of it to take an "upgrade" test. They keep the copy and you keep the original.

K9STH
06-02-2009, 03:58 PM
The University of Texas (Austin, main campus) computer seems to be having some problems right now. The same program can be found at

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=11352

Glen, K9STH

W4CBJ
06-02-2009, 04:31 PM
My operating position is in my living room with the radio cabinet on the West wall. My amateur radio license is in the same frame as my commercial license (GROL) and is hanging on the South wall about eight (8) feet away. Technically, this is a violation of the rules and regulations because it is not at the "operating position." Now that I have admitted my guilt, should I :
Move the license closer to the radio cabinet. (How close?)
Let it remain where it is and suffer future consequence.
Petition the FCC for a waiver of the rules.
Ask forgiveness for being fool enough to admit my guilt on a public forum.
Wait until I get caught and beg for mercy at the Court.
Awaiteng your reply with fear and trepidation. 73 Joe W4CBJ

K7JEM
06-02-2009, 04:35 PM
My operating position is in my living room with the radio cabinet on the West wall. My amateur radio license is in the same frame as my commercial license (GROL) and is hanging on the South wall about eight (8) feet away. Technically, this is a violation of the rules and regulations because it is not at the "operating position." Now that I have admitted my guilt, should I :
Move the license closer to the radio cabinet. (How close?)
Let it remain where it is and suffer future consequence.
Petition the FCC for a waiver of the rules.
Ask forgiveness for being fool enough to admit my guilt on a public forum.
Wait until I get caught and beg for mercy at the Court.
Awaiteng your reply with fear and trepidation. 73 Joe W4CBJ

Can you cite a rule that says your license has to be posted at your operating position? That's a new one on me.

Joe

KS4VT
06-02-2009, 05:06 PM
I In my state, the police and fire have the option of using a ham operator and his gear during an emergency when their systems fail,etc. Jim

I'd really like to see that law....

KS4VT
06-02-2009, 05:08 PM
My operating position is in my living room with the radio cabinet on the West wall. My amateur radio license is in the same frame as my commercial license (GROL) and is hanging on the South wall about eight (8) feet away. Technically, this is a violation of the rules and regulations because it is not at the "operating position." Now that I have admitted my guilt, should I :
Move the license closer to the radio cabinet. (How close?)
Let it remain where it is and suffer future consequence.
Petition the FCC for a waiver of the rules.
Ask forgiveness for being fool enough to admit my guilt on a public forum.
Wait until I get caught and beg for mercy at the Court.
Awaiteng your reply with fear and trepidation. 73 Joe W4CBJ

Just attach it to the back of your chair...or sit on it..
That way they will be "at the operating position".

WA9SVD
06-02-2009, 08:22 PM
I don't think the issue is if it is difficult, but rather is it required or even useful.

You gain nothing by posting it, or even having it in your possession, unless you are traveling outside the country.

Post it and carry it if you want. Don't do it if you don't want. It doesn't matter.

Joe

Better make that "traveling," not just traveling out of the country. Any time you use another station (whetther club or private) you are supposed to provide proof of licensure. And not ALL Amateur stations (by circumstance or by choice) have Internet access; As Far As I Know, that's not yet an FCC requirement.

Really, how difficult is it to carry the wallet-size copy in (GASP!) your wallet or purse, (as the case may be.)

WA9SVD
06-02-2009, 08:26 PM
My operating position is in my living room with the radio cabinet on the West wall. My amateur radio license is in the same frame as my commercial license (GROL) and is hanging on the South wall about eight (8) feet away. Technically, this is a violation of the rules and regulations because it is not at the "operating position." Now that I have admitted my guilt, should I :
Move the license closer to the radio cabinet. (How close?)
Let it remain where it is and suffer future consequence.
Petition the FCC for a waiver of the rules.
Ask forgiveness for being fool enough to admit my guilt on a public forum.
Wait until I get caught and beg for mercy at the Court.
Awaiteng your reply with fear and trepidation. 73 Joe W4CBJ

OOOOOOOOOH, you're gonna go to Heck for that! You should KNOW that the copy of your license must be physically attached (staples are acceptable) to your body while operating to conform to FCC rules... :p:rolleyes:

W4CBJ
06-02-2009, 11:07 PM
O. K., gentlemen, I ASSUMED and remembered that the COMMERCIAL license had to be posted....I should have looked it up (I do have the latest copy of the FCC Rules and Regulations ...Part 97) and IF I am wrong (almost impossible)...but maybe.... I will apologize profusely (ad nauseum). 73 Joe W4CBJ

N2RJ
06-03-2009, 03:39 AM
As others have pointed out, it serves very little purpose. The FCC doesn't require that you post it, show it, or really care if you have one. Unless you're traveling outside the country, there isn't much use, unless you personally just like to post such things.

The FCC relies on ULS now, that is the official source. If your license shows "canceled" or "revoked" on the ULS, it really doesn't matter if you have a paper license that shows otherwise. Conversely, if you have no paper license, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean that you are not licensed, or cannot operate. And the FCC won't ask you for it, they already know. We don't live in the 60's anymore, folks. That license is just a piece of paper.

Joe


Can you cite a rule that says your license has to be posted at your operating position? That's a new one on me.

Joe


If you are running a telecommand station such as an internet remote base, you need to have a copy of the license at the control point:


§ 97.213 Telecommand of an amateur station.

An amateur station on or within 50 km of the Earth's surface may be
under telecommand where:

(a) There is a radio or wireline control link between the control point
and the station sufficient for the control operator to perform his/her
duties. If radio, the control link must use an auxiliary station. A
control link using a fiber optic cable or another telecommunication
service is considered wireline.

(b) Provisions are incorporated to limit transmission by the station to
a period of no more than 3 minutes in the event of malfunction in the
control link.

(c) The station is protected against making, willfully or negligently,
unauthorized transmissions.

(d) A photocopy of the station license and a label with the name,
address, and telephone number of the station licensee and at least one
designated control operator is posted in a conspicuous place at the
station location.


But I generally agree that most people don't really need the printed copy of their license. It is kinda cool to have one though.

K7JEM
06-03-2009, 05:01 AM
Better make that "traveling," not just traveling out of the country. Any time you use another station (whetther club or private) you are supposed to provide proof of licensure. And not ALL Amateur stations (by circumstance or by choice) have Internet access; As Far As I Know, that's not yet an FCC requirement.

Really, how difficult is it to carry the wallet-size copy in (GASP!) your wallet or purse, (as the case may be.)

Can you cite a rule that says you have to provide proof of licensure to operate another station? People love to make stuff up.

Joe

K7JEM
06-03-2009, 05:11 AM
O. K., gentlemen, I ASSUMED and remembered that the COMMERCIAL license had to be posted....I should have looked it up (I do have the latest copy of the FCC Rules and Regulations ...Part 97) and IF I am wrong (almost impossible)...but maybe.... I will apologize profusely (ad nauseum). 73 Joe W4CBJ

That's the problem here. Too many people assuming too much. In reality, the paper license isn't needed for much as far as the FCC is concerned. If you live in a Fascist state, they might require it if you have a radio in your vehicle.

["Please show us your papers. Vee need to see those papers! GIVE US YOUR PAPERS! ZIEG HEIL!!]

Joe

KC0UWF
06-03-2009, 07:51 AM
I have mine framed in the shack. I have the mini one in my wallet.

Tom - AB3FL

This^^^^^^^^^
right beside my wife's license:D

N1JBS
06-03-2009, 10:06 AM
The University of Texas (Austin, main campus) computer seems to be having some problems right now. The same program can be found at

http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=11352

Glen, K9STH

They must still be having problems, But thank you for the link.

When I went to the see the loan officer to get a loan for my house, she wanted another form of id. I showed her my amateur radio license and she said "whats this?" I told her it was a signed federal document showing my residency. She said "that will do it."

KB3SKU
06-03-2009, 10:17 AM
About 8 states have restrictive 'scanner laws' that can affect hams. Here in Minnesota, we have the most anal retentive scanner law in the country in that regard. The law prohibits having any kind of mobile receiver capable of receiving 'public service' frequencies. There is an exemption, however, for licensed amateur radio operators. BUT, you must immediately show your license to any officer who requests it on demand, and failure to do so is a Gross Misdemeanor - on a par with a drunk driving arrest. So, what if your wife or kid is driving your car with the nice dualbander in it? According to the commander of our highway patrol, that would be a violation and they could end up in big trouble. Other states exempt them, too, but not this one. Efforts to make the law more reasonable have been crushed by the Law Enforcement lobby - weird since so many cops are hams here.

So, if you're driving through Minnesota or one of the other 7 places like this, you should have a copy of your license. Since you can print your own official copy from the FCC website, I don't see how the question of 'original vs. copy' can arise.

I've attached copies of my ham license to my dualbanders, and I have purposely avoided programming any public service frequencies in them.
All public service agencies in this state are migrating rapidly over to digital and I wish them well, because my analog receiver will not work for them anymore, so I'll have another defense if this ever comes up.

Are you aloud to have a scanner in the house at least? I know in some or maybe all ya cant have a scanner in the car. Just wondering.

KB3LAZ
06-03-2009, 10:51 AM
My license is hanging on the wall, including the wallet copy.:p I dont use a mobile radio and when I operate portable I am still on my own property(spare me the its not technically portable drivel).:D

VE3LXL
06-03-2009, 04:22 PM
I keep a copy in my car in case I forget my call.

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

Sounds dangerous, all that fumbling about for your license while driving. What you should do is to have your call tattooed to your forehead, backwards, so you can read it in your rear-view mirror. Safety first!

N1BHH
06-03-2009, 04:46 PM
When a license is issued or renewed you receive two official versions. One is a large frame friendly version for your wall, the other is a small wallet size. You must at least sign them, then cut the wallet size out and put it in your wallet. it's only common sense to carry it on you at all times, whether you have a radio in your hand or vehicle. Come on people, use your brain. :o

N0LW
06-03-2009, 05:19 PM
The ARRL ULS FAQ (http://www.arrl.org/fcc/uls-qa.html) Explains it best:
Amateurs are not required to carry a copy of their license at all times as they were at one time; as long as your license data appears on the FCC database, that's sufficient. There are other times when you need to carry a copy of your FCC license, at a testing session or during foreign travel, for example.


When I upgraded, I had my actually wallet license with me, but they VE’s would only accept a photocopy. :confused: :confused:

KD0FUL
06-03-2009, 05:53 PM
Are you aloud to have a scanner in the house at least? I know in some or maybe all ya cant have a scanner in the car. Just wondering.

Yes. In Minnesota, any person can have a scanner in the house. Not in the car, though.

Jeb
KD0FUL

K9STH
06-03-2009, 07:42 PM
LW:

The VE team requires a photocopy that is retained in their records. Most VE teams also want to see the original "just in case" someone "fudged" the photocopy.

Glen, K9STH

KB4QAA
06-03-2009, 07:44 PM
Well I'm floored. I haven't read Part 97 in total for at least 10-15 years.

In all the revisions I no longer find ANY requirement for us to carry or have in our possession an original or photocopy of our license while operating mobile, portable or in a location away from our home.

Seems bizarre. I think it just got lost in all the changes they made. I will still keep copies in my wallet, car and Qrp kit. A government certificate goes a long ways in putting suspicious cops at ease.


Bill

KK4ASS
06-03-2009, 08:30 PM
You mean we need a license? I though you just made on up like on CB. :p

N0LW
06-04-2009, 05:22 PM
LW:

The VE team requires a photocopy that is retained in their records. Most VE teams also want to see the original "just in case" someone "fudged" the photocopy.

Glen, K9STH


Thanks Glen!

N2RJ
06-04-2009, 05:50 PM
Well I'm floored. I haven't read Part 97 in total for at least 10-15 years.

In all the revisions I no longer find ANY requirement for us to carry or have in our possession an original or photocopy of our license while operating mobile, portable or in a location away from our home.

Seems bizarre. I think it just got lost in all the changes they made. I will still keep copies in my wallet, car and Qrp kit. A government certificate goes a long ways in putting suspicious cops at ease.


Bill

According to K7JEM we are moving towards the era where you can just take a simple test online to become a ham and print out the license there.

K7JEM
06-04-2009, 05:52 PM
LW:

The VE team requires a photocopy that is retained in their records. Most VE teams also want to see the original "just in case" someone "fudged" the photocopy.

Glen, K9STH

From the VE manual:


Proof of License Grant
The FCC expects that VEs will identify all license applicants, and that they will determine each applicant's license and/or examination credit status. Expect each examinee to bring you proof of licensing (if you don't already do so, consider including such a statement in your public announcements).
If an applicant comes to your session claiming to hold a license but has no written proof with him/her, and if you have access to Internet call sign servers, you can verify the license claim directly on line. If you don't have access to the Internet, but believe the claim to be valid, and you can clearly identify the applicant, test the person and issue two CSCEs for any successful exams (issue a credit-only CSCE to the applicant at the time of the test and send the VEC a complete credit-and-upgrade-earned CSCE--don't separate the carbons--which the ARRL/VEC will then hold until its staff can verify the applicant's license claims). Tell the candidate that he/she is responsible for sending a photocopy of the missing license or any other needed documentation to the ARRL/VEC office. When the ARRL/VEC receives it, its staff will compare the data on the license with that on the candidate's Form 605 and CSCE and if everything is in order, the ARRL/VEC will send the upgrade data to FCC and release the white copy of the complete CSCE to the candidate.
The team should always compare the signature on the license, ID or CSCE presented with any photocopies supplied.
The original license and/or original CSCE(s) is to be returned immediately to the licensee after inspection. The FCC issues Amateur Radio licenses using its official license form, FCC Form 660. It includes two official licenses on an 8 1/2x11-inch document. The standard wallet-sized license, which measures approximately 2 1/4 inches tall by 6 3/4 inches wide is found at the bottom of the form. Also included is a 5x7-inch license suitable for framing and display. Both of these documents, each of which requires the licensee's signature, are legal license documents. The background in both documents includes hundreds of gray hash marks in vertical and horizontal patterns. The document has been printed on tan/off white colored stock safety paper, but FCC indicates the background color may vary depending on the color supplied by their printing contractor.
All FCC licenses issued before April 1991 used the small FCC-license format, however. That format was the 2 ¼ x 6 3/4-inch wallet size. The background for this form included 150 miniature FCC insignias, printed in yellow.
Alterations that have been made or attempted on either Form 660 document will usually be detected easily.
It's possible that someone may attempt to sneak a neatly modified (forged/altered) license photocopy past the VE Team. If that happens, and if the VE Team or VEC notes that the document was purposely altered, collect a copy and send it to the ARRL/VEC. The VEC will then refer the matter to the FCC for review.

The only time a paper license is needed is to verify that someone actually has the license class claimed. There is no requirement that a license or copy even be presented (let alone be retained in test documents). If the VE's have internet access, all license claims may instantly be made on the ULS database. Of course, an individual team can require an original, or a photocopy, but it is not mandated. A good look at an original or photocopy, or verification on the internet is all that is needed. There is even a process to test people who have NO PROOF of their current license, but it is more difficult, and will result in a longer processing time.

With today's internet capable phones and devices, it's becoming harder and harder to be in a place where no internet is available. It's a good thing for VEs to have running on test day.

Joe

K7JEM
06-04-2009, 05:53 PM
According to K7JEM we are moving towards the era where you can just take a simple test online to become a ham and print out the license there.

Very soon, Grasshopper!

(Apologies to the late David Carradine.)

WA9SVD
06-04-2009, 06:07 PM
From the VE manual:



The only time a paper license is needed is to verify that someone actually has the license class claimed. There is no requirement that a license or copy even be presented (let alone be retained in test documents). If the VE's have internet access, all license claims may instantly be made on the ULS database. Of course, an individual team can require an original, or a photocopy, but it is not mandated. A good look at an original or photocopy, or verification on the internet is all that is needed. There is even a process to test people who have NO PROOF of their current license, but it is more difficult, and will result in a longer processing time.

With today's internet capable phones and devices, it's becoming harder and harder to be in a place where no internet is available. It's a good thing for VEs to have running on test day.

Joe


Two different issues. A "paper" (original) license is needed LEGALLY in some cases, such as operating outside the U.S., and preferably when upgrading or otherwise dealing with the VE System, to avoid delays and other hassles.

But PRACTICALLY, an Amateur CAN be required to produce an original license before operating another station; that includes many club stations. Particularly if the other station (club or individual) doesn't have Internet access, (such as during Field Day) a person can be required to show a license before being allowed to operate.

It's really such a small matter to get the "wallet size" portion of the license laminated and carried in wallet or purse, that it should still be a matter of habit. Too many times our club has had to disallow operation by a visiting ham because we can't verify licensure. (We don't have Internet access, so we have no way to check the ULS database.)

K7JEM
06-04-2009, 06:21 PM
Two different issues. A "paper" (original) license is needed LEGALLY in some cases, such as operating outside the U.S., and preferably when upgrading or otherwise dealing with the VE System, to avoid delays and other hassles.
Yes, the first is not an issue in the US, though. And that is where the FCC has jurisdiction. The FCC can hardly "tell" another country what to do, or accept as proof of licensing. The second is just a matter of convenience. If the VE team has a computer with internet access, it only takes about 10 seconds to check a callsign, so that's not a lot of hassle. In the future, I would expect to see all the VE stuff done right on the internet, right at the test session, and the info forwarded directly to the ARRL immediately for processing, with callsigns and upgrades appearing on the ULS the next day. It is already possible to do this, just not being done.

But PRACTICALLY, an Amateur CAN be required to produce an original license before operating another station; that includes many club stations. Particularly if the other station (club or individual) doesn't have Internet access, (such as during Field Day) a person can be required to show a license before being allowed to operate.
Sure, anyone can place any requirement on an individual before operating their station. They could require club membership, a cash deposit, or hold onto your driver's license while you are being an operator. But none of those things (including showing a license) are required before operations can take place.

It's really such a small matter to get the "wallet size" portion of the license laminated and carried in wallet or purse, that it should still be a matter of habit. Too many times our club has had to disallow operation by a visiting ham because we can't verify licensure. (We don't have Internet access, so we have no way to check the ULS database.)

You didn't have to deny operation, your club chose to do that. There must be other ways to verify to yourselves that the person is indeed licensed. But since it's your club, you can impose any restriction you choose to. But you don't have to do it.

Joe

K4MPH
06-04-2009, 06:51 PM
READ AND THEN FOLLOW THE FCC RULES THIS IS NOT CB RADIO EVEN THOUGH SOMETIMES IT SOUNDS LIKE CB RADIO

KB4QAA
06-04-2009, 07:23 PM
Alright. *sniff*

I promise I read Part 97 from beginning to end at least once a decade. It won't happen again.

b. :)

WA9SVD
06-04-2009, 10:57 PM
Yes, the first is not an issue in the US, though. And that is where the FCC has jurisdiction. The FCC can hardly "tell" another country what to do, or accept as proof of licensing. The second is just a matter of convenience. If the VE team has a computer with internet access, it only takes about 10 seconds to check a callsign, so that's not a lot of hassle. In the future, I would expect to see all the VE stuff done right on the internet, right at the test session, and the info forwarded directly to the ARRL immediately for processing, with callsigns and upgrades appearing on the ULS the next day. It is already possible to do this, just not being done.Sure, anyone can place any requirement on an individual before operating their station. They could require club membership, a cash deposit, or hold onto your driver's license while you are being an operator. But none of those things (including showing a license) are required before operations can take place.

You didn't have to deny operation, your club chose to do that. There must be other ways to verify to yourselves that the person is indeed licensed. But since it's your club, you can impose any restriction you choose to. But you don't have to do it.

Joe


Didn't say it was a "requirement" in the U.S. Just that it may be required by OTHER jurisdictions to allow operating privileges, which was my understanding of the original thread. SOME other countries want to see an ORIGINAL license, not just a photocopy. So that's essentially a requirement, or need. to carry the original in such a circumstance.

And if a club or individual requires an original license be shown, to allow operation or even access to a station, then yes, it IS a requirement, even if not a LEGAL requirement. I attempted not to confuse the two concepts.

WA9SVD
06-04-2009, 11:17 PM
Yes, the first is not an issue in the US, though. And that is where the FCC has jurisdiction. The FCC can hardly "tell" another country what to do, or accept as proof of licensing. The second is just a matter of convenience. If the VE team has a computer with internet access, it only takes about 10 seconds to check a callsign, so that's not a lot of hassle.

Joe


You seem to be putting the onus of verifying licensure on the part of the VE's (or others,) rather than on the part of the person claiming to be licensed.
Not every VE session has Internet access (sorry if that offends your senses) and that will include our club's Field Day testing session; and if a testing session accomodates tens or even hundreds of examinees, it's NOT reasonable to expect the VE's to be able verify licensre (or lack thereof) for a large percentage of the applicants. It's NOT the real job of the VE's, and the delays involved is not fair to the applicants that have proper documentation..
The proof of licensure or eligibility STILL falls upon the examinee, and even if issued a Conditional certificate at a testing session, an individual STILL has to provide proper proof and documentation to the FCC before such test credit will be accepted and applied toward an FCC issued Amateur Radio license.
Evren in such a case, the individual STILL has to provide proof of licensure if an upgrade or other FC action is required. HOW much simpler would it be if a person had their license in their possession?

K7JEM
06-05-2009, 12:15 AM
You seem to be putting the onus of verifying licensure on the part of the VE's (or others,) rather than on the part of the person claiming to be licensed.
Not every VE session has Internet access (sorry if that offends your senses) and that will include our club's Field Day testing session; and if a testing session accomodates tens or even hundreds of examinees, it's NOT reasonable to expect the VE's to be able verify licensre (or lack thereof) for a large percentage of the applicants. It's NOT the real job of the VE's, and the delays involved is not fair to the applicants that have proper documentation..
The proof of licensure or eligibility STILL falls upon the examinee, and even if issued a Conditional certificate at a testing session, an individual STILL has to provide proper proof and documentation to the FCC before such test credit will be accepted and applied toward an FCC issued Amateur Radio license.
Evren in such a case, the individual STILL has to provide proof of licensure if an upgrade or other FC action is required. HOW much simpler would it be if a person had their license in their possession?

Well that's not exactly right. It would be easier to bring a license, or copy. I'm not disputing that. But it's not required by the FCC. All the VE team has to do is verify that the individual is indeed licensed. They can accept an original license, a photocopy, internet access, or a CD rom or a callbook. IF none of those things are available, they can do the provisional testing thing, but it is not the FCC that verifies anything, it's sent to the ARRL to verify the license class after they receive a photocopy. The FCC never sees any of that verification, they don't need to. They have a database. I don't need to prove to them that I have a license, they already know that. I can't fool them.

But the point is, what is actually "required", and what just helps out? The requirements as far as the FCC is concerned about is nil. There is virtually nothing that the physical license can do, or is required to do, per FCC rules. Now there are times when someone might require it as part of their procedure to use a club station. There may be some state requirement to have it in your possession if you have a mobile installed in your vehicle. There may be some requirement if you are operating outside the USA. But that's really it. You don't have to carry it, or post it (except for remotely controlled stations). It is not the defining document that even indicates actual licensing. That purpose now resides with the FCC ULS database. THAT is the sole determining factor of who is, or isn't licensed. The license document is just a semi pretty piece of paper.

Joe

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