PDA

View Full Version : Emergency Digital Communications


12-22-2002, 01:25 AM
Emergency Digital Communications - Another Angle
- by Charles Brabham, N5PVL -
- U.S. Packet Net -

In the last decade or so, amateurs have been treated to hundreds of excellent new programs and protocols that have greatly expanded our capabilities. APRS, CLOVER, PSK31, PACTOR II, FlexNet, and AGWPE immediately come to mind. So many new ideas have been presented in this way, it is inevitable that sooner or later, something really great would end up being overlooked. This has been the case with RadioMirror, the Terrestrial Multicast protocol/software package developed several years ago by John Hansen, W2FS.

RadioMirror works much like the familiar EMWIN (http://iwin.nws.noaa.gov/emwin/index.htm) weather data and alert broadcasts provided by the National Weather Service. One transmitting station provides information to an unlimited number of recieving stations simultaneously by means of a digital broadcast to many stations at once, called a multicast.

Before reading about applying RadioMirror and its multicast protocol to digital emergency communcations, you can get a better idea of what RadioMirror is and what it does at the RadioMirror Home Page, as John can do a much better job of describing his work than I can. Here I will quote the major points of the system, from his pages:

RadioMirror Web Site (http://www.tapr.org/~wa0ptv/)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

RadioMirror is a new file server designed by John Hansen, W2FS (ex-WA0PTV), to use a broadcast protocol in packet radio. The current version runs under Windows 95/98. This results in relatively high speed file transfers from a central server to many client computers at once. Key features of this software include:

Packets are transmitted in unconnected mode so they can be received by an unlimited number of stations at the same time.

File transfers are faster than on traditional connected packet connections because the server need not wait for acknowledgment packets from the clients. Data streams out of the server without interruption.

The system does not require users to purchase any new hardware. It is capable of transferring up to 20 MB of data per day (assuming 50% compression) at a transmission rate of 1200 baud.

The client software saves partial files that are received with holes and fills in the holes as the file is retransmitted.

The client software keeps track of the file modification dates and will update files that have been modified, but ignore files that it has already received and have not been updated.

Unlike the PACSAT broadcast protocol, the filenames on the clients are exactly the same as they appear on the server, making this an excellent mechanism for distributing HTML files.

Entire directories and directory structures that reside on the server can be replicated exactly on the clients, making this an ideal way, for xample, for transferring files that have been downloaded from the PACSATs, so that stations that do not have satellite groundstations can still use groundstation programs like WiSP to access satellite files.

Hooks are built into the server to allow other programs, such as packet bulletin boards, to kick off server file transfers.

Files can be specified to be transmitted once, or on a continuous loop.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In practice, the RadioMirror distribution file gives you a copy of both the RadioMirror server, and the client software that picks up and decodes the data being sent by the servers' multicast transmissions. RadioMirror is designed to work with Win95/98, and both client and server programs require a KISS TNC.

What RadioMirror sends is files. Not only files, but directories can be transmitted by this versatile software to any number of recieving stations. Any kind of file can be sent, but HTML and text files may be the most useful for emergency communications.

RadioMirror and Emergency Communications

Obviously, there are dozens of potential uses for a supercharged amateur radio version of EMWIN.

I believe that RadioMirror can be especially useful for distributing information to non-hams that we work with such as Law Enforcement entities, the Red Cross, National Weather Service centers, Hospitals, and Government offices. Very few of these persons can be depended upon to learn how to use special software or radios, but they all know how to use an Internet browser.

All of these offices, along with local ARES/RACES groups and anyone else who is interested can be continuously kept up to date by a single RadioMirror server located in your community.

The RadioMirror clients at each location would require an old 486 or better computer to run Win95/98 and RadioMirror Client, the built-in IE browser set up with links to the files you wish to display, and a 2 meter FM reciever (any kind) capable of picking up the broadcast information. An old scanner, or ham rig that doesn't transmit any more would do fine. A TNC capable of KISS mode operation is also required for each location.

Once a RadioMirror client is set up, let's say at the Sherriffs office for example, an amateur radio operator is not required in order for the people there to use it. The client system does not transmit, it only recieves amateur radio transmissions and anybody can legally do that.

Radiomirror can simultaneously distribute the information you provide to any number of such client locations, freeing up your local RACES/ARES hams for more interesting and useful work. Most of the present setups, both digital and voice, require a ham at each location served so this is a significant advantage for small groups, struggling to do a lot with just a few active members in the field.

http://www.uspacket.net/rm01.jpg
Note that most locations shown have backup power/generators.

Once you have set up your server, start putting together a few client stations. You will want at least one of them right away, of course, to test the server. After that, assemble clients ( as you can afford to ) for the various non-ham agencies and entities that you have arrainged to serve.

Set the client machines for non-hams up so that when the power is flipped on, the computer automatically loads RadioMirror Client, and then the Internet browser with its pre-loaded links to the relevant file names in the client computer's directory. Create an internal HTML page with those links in the client computers' hard drive, and set that as the browser's default startup page.

If you power the reciever and TNC from the computer's power supply, they will automatically come up too, making it a single-button operation to bring up the entire system. This makes it easy to start over if things go wrong. You could even put the receiver and TNC in the computer's case, to keep things uncluttered and simple. The idea is to make it simple, easy to deal with during the course of an emergency, and obviously useful. A turn-key system.

Updating the Data on the Server

RadioMirror has no provision for remotely updating the information it will send. If you change the contents of the "continuous" or "one-time" directories, RadioMirror will send the updated files immediately. It is up to you though, to figure out how to update those files, residing in a computer at a node site. Probably the best solution is to run a copy of FBB BBS in the same machine, because of the extensive remote SYSOP controls and great security FBB offers. You can remotely do most regular DOS chores, and FBB handles YAPP and BinHex file transfers, another good feature for effective remote control of the RadioMirror server.

The BBS should have one radio port for control purposes, and be configured for high security (password access) along with minimal function as a BBS. If you want to use it as a regular BBS with additional radio ports, be sure your computer is up to the load that this will present while RadioMirror runs in the background! The BBS function is optional though, as you are primarily using FBB as a file transfer and remote disk control for RadioMirror.

Any other packet program that allows remote control of the disk, has good security and handles packet radio file transfers will do just as well, maybe better. I'm used to FBB, so that's what I tried.

You decide who gets the password and can update which files. FBB makes it easy to do this, too, with private directories. Once a file is updated, the updated version goes out over RadioMirror and that updates all of the RadioMirror client systems listening.

For example, hams at the National Weather Service E.O.C. could have control of a text file in a private directory in the BBS. In the RadioMirror server, you would have it send that file continuously, along with the files it sends from other sources. That way, whenever the NWS updates the text file, the updated version immediately gets out to the police, city hall and the TV station, and all other client systems that are operating within effective range of the server's transmitter.

Files can be created for each source of information, including amateurs in the field. They could either carry along a portable packet station, or relay thier reports over a voice repeater to a home station with both voice and packet capability nearby.

The RadioMirror server itself, it must be noted, requires a transmitter but no reciever. The transmitter must be rated for continuous duty, as it is only unkeyed very briefly and spends over 95% of its time keyed up. Reduce power, or get a pretty tough transmitter and set it up with a cooling fan. It will need it. If you start off with a 100 watt transmitter and tune it down to 20 watts or so, that would be a good starting point. Don't burn up your transmitter!

Going over the main advantages to this setup, they are:


A turnkey system for providing important data to non-hams and hams alike.

Frees up amateurs from babysitting voice or regular packet systems at non-ham sites, so they can do more in the field.

Is generally inexpensive, uses existing equipment and even equipment that is no good for anything else. (2meter rigs with no TX , no tone boards, and so on..)

Anybody with a TNC and a VHF reciever can recieve the multicasts.

Between Emergencies

To keep your system ready, the server should operate at all times, ready to be used for testing client systems at non-ham locations around the city. The clients will only see the files that you specify on their system's default HTML pages, so in-between emergencies, your group could transmit other general information of interest to amateurs, including "Ham Home Pages" for individuals and clubs, located at the server.

John Hansen describes some of these everyday ways to utilize a RadioMirror server at his web site, along with detailed information about the protocol, and the commendable philosophy behind this system. When an emergency arises, tell the system to only send the most vital files, so that it will cycle through them and update quickly.

Note: I haven't mentioned RadioMirror as replacing current voice and packet emergency communications systems because I think it works best when used to enhance them, not replace them. All of our ham emergency communications methods have a place in the hobby, and I believe RadioMirror really ought to be in there with the others because of the unique capability it offers to amateur radio emergency communicators.

Charles Brabham, Webmaster, U.S. Packet Net


U.S. Packet Net
http://www.uspacket.net/

kc6ufe
12-25-2002, 09:42 PM
hi Charles, nice idea, one thing though, I keep seeing the word 'broadcast', which hams are not sposed to do.
Can you address how your system gets around the 'hams cant broadcast' rule?

W5HTW
12-26-2002, 01:25 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kc6ufe @ Dec. 25 2002,14:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hi Charles, nice idea, one thing though, I keep seeing the word 'broadcast', which hams are not sposed to do.
Can you address how your system gets around the 'hams cant broadcast' rule?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That becomes an issue of even more significance when "broadcasting" to non-ham entitites, such as REd Cross, Hospitals, Fire Departments, NWS, etc. That would be expressly prohibited by FCC rules. Trying to make ham radio a backbone for regional emergency communications is not in the interest of the hobby, nor is it within FCC rules, at least as I understand them. Ham radio as a backup utility for local-regional emergency communications does fall within the guidelines of our hobby, but one-way transmission to non-hams is just not permitted. As I read this, though, the 'broadcast' could be received by a licensed ham using a ham type receiver, and then passed along as third party traffic, which would get around the illegality. To be safe, I would not encourage the use of non-transmit-capable ham gear, as again it approaches one-way operation, which, with the exception of certain bulletins meant to further the hobby itself, is outside the rules. So it would appear if the ham receivers were also capable of transmitting and were staffed by properly licensed hams, then the material, monitored for compliance with amateur regulations, could be treated as third party.

ed

12-26-2002, 02:48 AM
Later on I'll try to dig out the relevant sections of the PART97 rules, unless somebody else does so, or it turns out to be unnecessary. Meanwhile, I'll state my reasons for not being too concerned about it. If I'm wrong to see it that way, maybe someone will straighten me out.

My understanding is that amateurs may broadcast under certain circumstances, the most important determining factors being that the content be legal of course and "of interest to amateurs", with the second factor being that you do not make a nuisance of yourself, or step on anyone's toes. Good operating practice covers that anyway, but it still needs to be mentioned.

I've been broadcasting on the ham bands (on a smaller scale) for decades now... My packet nodes broadcast I.D. info several times an hour, ditto for BBS and Cluster stations I have operated. Many times, those beacons contain short announcements of interest to hams.

More recently, I have been enjoying a program called EchoStation (http://www.synergenics.com/sc/) that can act as a repeater controller, an automated announcement device, or a combination thereof. I have used it as an announcement device, broadcasting 5wpm CW practice over a local repeater.

I would codge together a few audio files; a standard introduction, the CW (Farnsworth), me reading the text back so the listeners could check their copy, a few short announcements from the local ham clubs about VE testing, meetings and so on, then a standard signoff. I would run them all together into one nine-minute audio file (MP3) to be broadcast.

I'd usually make up a new one for every weekday, but sometimes I got lazy or pressed for time and ran a "re-run" of an earlier practice session instead. My callsign was regularly mentioned during the transmission, just as if I was being talkative on the repeater. I usually I.D. more often than necessary on repeaters.

After the canned practice session ended, I would pull the plug from the computer to the radio, plug in my microphone and conduct an informal net.

One of the local ham clubs broadcasts "Amateur Radio Newsline" every weekend in much the same manner. That broadcast is much longer and from what I understand, this is an accepted practice.
The ARRL Audio News (http://www.remote.arrl.org/arrlletter/audio/) is intended to be broadcast the same way, according to their web page.

Finally, there was an episode about three years ago, when I decided to do experimental multicast transmissions on HF. Imagine the same system I have described in the article above, but on a much larger scale. Anyway, before conducting those tests, I just up and asked both the ARRL and the FCC if it would be OK to do so. They both said "OK".

I call those tests an "episode" because they were inconclusive... I couldn't get enough folks to volunteer to run the client software for a decent test. I learned something from it, but not as much as I hoped to. Someday, I'll give it another stab, but I want to have a linear amplifier first, so I can tune it down for continuous duty and still put out 100 watts or so. In the first tests, I had to back down the power on my TS-450sat to 15-20 watts, to keep the rig from burning itself up.

RadioMirror is a steamlined version of the AMSAT multicast protocol which has been in use for some time. John Hansen mentions that on the RadioMirror web site.

Then of course there is W1AW, that has been broadcasting for decades. I'm sure that there are restrictions on amateur radio broadcasts but from what I understand, room is left in there for broadcast of content of interest to amateurs.

There is no restriction, of course, on who may listen in on amateur transmissions of any kind, so there is no legal issue to consider on the client side, just for the server.

For example, hams have often "Elmered" potential hams by helping them get a shortwave reciever so that they could recieve W1AW broadcasts for many years now. It has never been suggested that this practice was illegal.

As far as I can tell; RadioMirror, operated responsibly as a ham, does not bump up against any PART97 restrictions.

Finally, it should be remembered that the system I have described is intended to be monitored by non-hams during the course of an emergency. - That means that unless it is deployed in a really unlucky area, it will be monitored only by ham radio operators, almost all of the time.

During the course of an emergency it would be worthwhile for non-hams to monitor the multicasts, but under normal conditions they will of course just use the Internet and the local telephone system to get that kind of info. That's why I think the client systems for non-hams should be turned off until needed, except for a periodic check for good function.

That's how I see it anyway... But it's just an opinion. It would be good to hear from somebody who is familiar with PART97 on this.

Charles, #N5PVL
webmaster@uspacket.net
http://www.uspacket.net

kc6ufe
12-26-2002, 04:48 AM
you should get the part 97 rules and look them over again, technically a lot of what you have mentioned is not broadcasting, but two way transmitting to a small number of other hams, such as the newsline, usually done to on a net to net members who have checked in, ie the other half of the tx, etc. The actual allowable broadcasts are very limited.

W5ATX
12-26-2002, 07:37 PM
One way transmissions are allowed for dissemination of information of interest to amateurs. THis is how W1AW and K1MAN justify their existence. Of course lots of folks question K1MAN, and I've never listened, so I'm not judging.

W1AW I think is beyond question on the value they provide to radio amateurs. And that's the key, it must be for radio amateurs, not the Red Cross, fire company, mayor, etc. JUST directed at hams. ARRL and W1AW comply with that and are thus perfectly legal and proper.

Good luck,

Chris

wb6vpm
12-27-2002, 05:57 AM
Basically in event of a disaster where all normal lines of communications are cut off, all bets are off. #You are pretty much allowed to do whatever you need to do to keep people informed of immediate safety threats to life or property. #That is part of the Red Cross's job. #So you would be able to transmit to them. #Reference Part 97.403

ARRL Website on Part 97.4xx (Emergency Communications) (http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/e.html#401)

Subpart E--Providing Emergency Communications

§97.401 Operation during a disaster.
(a) When normal communication systems are overloaded, damaged or disrupted because a disaster has occurred, or is likely to occur, in an area where the amateur service is regulated by the FCC, an amateur station may make transmissions necessary to meet essential communication needs and facilitate relief actions.

(b) When normal communication systems are overloaded, damaged or disrupted because a natural disaster has occurred, or is likely to occur, in an area where the amateur service is not regulated by the FCC, a station assisting in meeting essential communication needs and facilitating relief actions may do so only in accord with ITU Resolution No. 640 (Geneva, 1979). The 80 m, 75 m, 40 m, 30 m, 20 m, 17 m, 15 m, 12 m, and 2 m bands may be used for these purposes.

© When a disaster disrupts normal communication systems in a particular area, the FCC may declare a temporary state of communication emergency. The declaration will set forth any special conditions and special rules to be observed by stations during the communication emergency. A request for a declaration of a temporary state of emergency should be directed to the EIC in the area concerned.

(d) A station in, or within 92.6 km of, Alaska may transmit emissions J3E and R3E on the channel at 5.1675 MHz for emergency communications. The channel must be shared with stations licensed in the Alaska-private fixed service. The transmitter power must not exceed 150 W.


§97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.
No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.


§97.405 Station in distress.
(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance.

(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a), of any means of radiocommunications at its disposal to assist a station in distress.

12-27-2002, 11:38 AM
I've added an illustration to the original article, for those who are interested in that kind of thing. Scroll up and check it out!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I thought all of those arguements about how illegal it was sounded fishy... If it was illegal (or even in a grey zone) the FCC and ARRL would not have been so quick to approve my experiments with multicast on HF, a few years back. The fellow from the ARRL didn't just approve; He encouraged me.

Everybody at the FCC and ARRL are pretty sensitive about what happens on HF, so if there was a problem I think I could have reasonably expected to have heard about it back then.

Also, I was not clear in the article about the fact that non-hams will be "listening in" on ham radio communications. Instead, I made it sound like the multicasts were intended only for the (ears, eyes?) of non-hams, which of course is not the case.

I'm pretty well satisfied now that the system I have described is legal but to be honest, I was satisfied as to it's legality before I posted the article here. I wouldn't encourage hams to do something that I thought was illegal.

If somebody wants to continue kicking the legal issue around, that is perfectly allright of course, but I would also like to hear some discussion about the system I described. How could it be improved? Where's the "catch"? How can it be simplified?

Guys like me who come up with a "pet idea" are prone to develop a severe case of myopia and often embarass themselves by overlooking the obvious. That's why it's a good idea to publish new ideas on a public forum like this, so it can be looked at from a fresh point of view, and be kicked around a little bit in the open.

How about it?

Charles, #N5PVL
webmaster@uspacket.net
http://www.uspacket.net

kc6ufe
12-27-2002, 09:36 PM
I think is was refreshing to revist the legality issue on this subject, just to clear it up before progressing, which I think has been done.
It is clearly legal to do this type of broadcasting during an emergency when other methods of communication are down, however it will have to be decided that that is the case before the broadcasting can be done. Also, during the testing phase, it would only remain legal I think, because it is not an emergency, to have a ham at the recieving end.

As for the system itself, the hardware to do the job seems doable from your description, the fly in the ointment so to speak with a system such as this will be the ability of time critical and valuable information to make it to the transmitting node, and to have a substantial enough network for that information to be effective in some fashion.

The important thing is where does the information come from to go to the node, how does it get there, and what value does it contain, and for who.
Are you talking police, fire, hospital, local government, local schools and shelters, private citizens at their residence, etc.
At the node, who makes the decision that the information is valuable and needs to be broadcast, a ham, or a government official, etc.

Also, a system such as this could be implimented by the federal, state or local government, on a differenct band of frequencies, and it is debatable as to whether this might b e a more appropriate way to accomplish the task. The problem with amateur radio as the vehicle is that the support from the ham community is spotty at best, and might be considered unreliable by federal, state and local institutions. Ie, the system would be ignored because it couldnt be trusted. This is apparent when there are local emergencies and worthless and false information is passed by well-meaning hams that want to contribute but only interfere because they are out of the loop of accurate and time sensitive information. I think that is one of the main problems with hams in emergencies, is that they lack organization and control, because all is volunteer, and when times require, most then fade into the woodwork or just get into the way due to being unprepared in training and ability to do anything other than operate a rig.

K5MAR
12-28-2002, 01:04 AM
Regarding legality, what about 97.111b(6):

(b) In addition to one-way transmissions specifically authorized elsewhere in this part, an amateur station may transmit the following types of one-way communications:

#(6) Transmissions necessary to disseminate information bulletins.

That should cover non-emergency situations, IMHO. #We do it all the time here during storm season, relaying weather updates issued by the NWS.

Mark Schneider #K5MAR
AEC, Payne Cty ARES

12-28-2002, 11:49 AM
Legal considerations:

...So under normal situations, sending multicasts of "information of interest to amateurs" and "information bulletins" is perfectly OK.

During the course of an emergency, the rules are a little less stringent, but that is a moot point when applied to the multicast system I have described, as it will be transmitting only the most vital information during an emergency. It will be sending less, not more under emergency conditions.

Why? #- To speed up the update cycle. If you send less information, it updates more often. (faster) I suppose there is no need to explain why you would want faster updates during the course of an emergency.

Content:

Somebody asked where the info being multicast would come from. Good question!

Emergency content:

* #Weather updates from the NWS
* #Information bulletins from law enforcenment entities (road closings, evacuation info, areas to avoid, calls for volunteers, situation briefs, announcements, etc..)
* #Information bulletins from ARES/RACES volunteers in the field
* #Information bulletins from Hospitals
* #Information bulletins and requests from the Red Cross.
* #Other information relevant to the emergency from other sources

All of these require a Ham to relay the information to the RadioMirror server so that it can be distributed.

Everyday Content:

* #Weather updates from the NWS
* #VE testing schedules
* #Club meetings, local events
* #HTML "Ham Pages" from local clubs and organizations.
* #ARRL bulletins (all types)
* #Packet bulletins from the local BBS
* #Internet links (Web pages, etc.)
* #ARES/RACES info
* #Local repeater and packet info
* #Any other legal content your group of hams are interested in.

All of your non-emergency info can be sent from a disk directory named "normal" (C:\NORMAL\*.*)

When emergency conditions arise, the RadioMirror SYSOP removes the "Normal" directory from the RadioMirror server's "send continuous" list, and substitues the smaller "Emergency" directory. - A five minute job.

Getting hams to the relevant information sources so that emergency info can be distributed will take a little longer, of course, but many NWS EOC's have a ham on duty and this will speed up the distribution of weather data.

Once you get it rolling, all of the information will be available at any location (ham or non-ham) that has a RadioMirror client set up and is within range of the transmitter.

Anybody with a computer, a KISS TNC and a VHF reciever can pick up the multicast.

I'd make sure the local broadcast TV and Radio stations had a client setup ready to be turned on during an emergency. This is so that relevant info can be quickly passed on to the general public... I suppose it goes without saying that a side-affect of this is that your local ARES/RACES group will get excellent publicity. Your system will reflect very well on the amateur radio community.

When the phone lines are down (or taken over by FEMA), the cellular grid is out of acftion, the Internet is unavailable and the power is down, your RadioMirror setup will be the fastest and most reliable digital information system available. It will very likely be the only one. This is why client stations should go to every entity that has emergency backup power, such as hospitals, police, NWS, and so on.

All of the categories of emergency information I have described are "of interest to amateurs", and will be a great addition to your local ARES/RACES capability. - And when non-ham agencies and entities see how useful that info is, they will be wanting access to it.

It will be noticed and appreciated; Don't doubt that!

They all know how to press a button, then use a web browser. The simple, familiar interface, and instant access to important info when other lines of communication are down will be very impressive to non-ham emergency personel who are trying to get by during the course of an emergenccy.

Charles, #N5PVL
webmaster@uspacket.net
http://www.uspacket.net

kc0gqt
12-29-2002, 09:11 AM
As far as the "broadcasting" goes, I think that would fall under a QST. Amateur Radio News Line is a "broadcast"

kb5sxh
12-30-2002, 05:53 AM
This system sounds useful. On one level, I could see it used to dissimenate up to the minute weather information from the NWS and from Skywarn stations. Of course, one thing that kind of rang in with me was a means for the red cross to dissimenate health and welfare traffic through amateur radio... What if, for instance, at a shelter site, a database could be created containing the names and condition of natural disaster victims (the one's who will allow their information to be released). That way, instead of having a great deal of voice traffic, there would be instant access to the information... It could even be as simple as an excel or html file of some sort...

The thought needs further development, but it's an idea...

73's
John KB5SXH

12-31-2002, 08:52 AM
John, KB5SXH came up with another angle on emergency communications utilizing RadioMirror!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kb5sxh @ Dec. 30 2002,04:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This system sounds useful. #On one level, I could see it used to dissimenate up to the minute weather information from the NWS and from Skywarn stations. #Of course, one thing that kind of rang in with me was a means for the red cross to dissimenate health and welfare traffic through amateur radio... #What if, for instance, at a shelter site, a database could be created containing the names and condition of natural disaster victims (the one's who will allow their information to be released). #That way, instead of having a great deal of voice traffic, there would be instant access to the information... #It could even be as simple as an excel or html file of some sort...

The thought needs further development, but it's an idea...

73's
John KB5SXH[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

That sounds like a great idea to me, John. According to the author of RadioMirror, the system is capable of sending 20 MB of data a day at 1200 baud. For the purpose you have suggested, a 9600 baud TNC's would increase the amount of data that could be moved in a day by a factor of eight, if 1200 baud is too slow to do the job.

The "20 MB per day" figure could be looked at as 20 MB of data sent once a day, or as 1 MB of data sent 20 times a day.

The smaller the total amount of data sent, the more times the data will be updated in the course of a day, and the shorter the interval between updates.

I don't know much about excel's data base files and how big they might get, but I am confident the system could handle them. For a use such as you have described, where only a few recieving stations are needed, 9600 baud on UHF might be a good way to go.

I didn't recommend 9600 baud for the application I outlined because I wanted to keep it simple and cheap, due to the relitively large number of recieving (client) stations that would end up being assembled, and the small size of text or html information bulletins being distributed. For what you have described though, it might be worthwhile to shoot for a higher baud rate.

Maybe I'm off-base about that, though, and the excel data file would not be so big as to make a higher baud rate necessary. If that is the case, going to a higher baud rate would be nice of course, but the system would still handle the job just fine with cheap, easy to deal with 1200 baud equipment.

Charles, #N5PVL

N0PU
12-31-2002, 12:22 PM
Rather than send the whole excel spreadsheet, why not do the job right and use a database...then the database format could be predetermined and all that would have to be sent is the data...

IMHO, locking yourself and your project into a single manufacturers specification, particularly microsoft, is a mistake. If microsoft ever changes their definition of what is 'right' the whole system s corrupted...

In a generic database, you could send a first file ( very short) with the generic database definition, and a second file with all the data... in very short order a program at specific locations could turn the database into html files and the data would be available from multiple servers at almost the exact same time for the rest of the world to view... I have a customer with a database of over 40,000 baseball cards and that whole database can be downloaded in less than 2 minutes at 380K BPS so even if your database was updated only twice an HOUR it would be a BIG deal. Also the search engine for the baseball card site can find any card out of the 40,000 in less than 300 milliseconds, and send a new page out with the data in less than 1 second....

This is not a spreadsheet job, it is a database job.
Locking oneself into one database is not a good idea.
Using generic definitions and data transfer makes it possible for the maximum number of stations to get involved.

12-31-2002, 04:07 PM
I found some info about a generic database program at: http://www.ofifc.org/Eli/ASP/GenericArticle.asp

Looks very useful! #I had never heard of generic database apps before.

Charles, #N5PVL

webmaster@uspacket.net
http://www.uspacket.net

N0PU
12-31-2002, 04:36 PM
That is one way to make a db into HTML...
but I was talking about even more generic than that...

ie: If you database has 3 columns of lastname, firstname, callsign, then the data for each row would be passed as comma deliminted files with each row seperated by a cr/lf..

Kholer, Harry, N0PU
Brabham, Charles, N5PVL
Gies, Ken, K7IQI
etc

This allows the data to be loaded into ANY database and is nothing more than an ascii text file formatted in a specific manner decided on basically by the users... The delimination can be anything that is an ascii character... If sentences are included in the DB then quotes are put around the sentence to indicate it is 'literal' so commas aren't misinterpreted...

Some study in Database creation and SQL would be helpful in getting the overall sense of the whole thing... In linux we use primarily mySQL as a db language and SQL for db operation is also recognized by MS DB programs... It is just a matter of setting up the DB format and then each user customizes their receive end to comply with their hardware/software combination... this would allow even users with old systems like DOS to manipulate the data using old programs like basic or pascal... This way no system is eliminated because the operator doesn't own or use some expensive or bloated software...

A system like you are talking about is a perfect application for linux particularly if you are setting up multiple computers because of the free software that comes complete with the needed software ( ie: DB and programming capability) ... Think Redhat Linux... If you are going to be working around govt systems and bigger organizations you need to be cognizant of the cost of the software because the MS type developers go after these people for using unregistered stuff... MS is particularly stiff about this... Yet if the machines were privately owned then linux and 99% of the software for it could be used easily for no cost...

If you are using MS database programs you can save a generic file like I am talking about by selecting "CSV" type save...( I think that is what they call it - I don't have a WIN program here to look at right now) ... Try saving one and then opening it with a text editor and you will see what I mean...

01-05-2003, 01:13 PM
RadioMirror is Windows software. Fortunately, you can get Win95/98 for next to nothing these days, registerable copies at that.

A soundcard version of the RadioMirror Client would be a good Linux app. One server, many clients.

Charles, #N5PVL
webmaster@uspacket.net
http://www.uspacket.net

w4pqk
01-05-2003, 11:39 PM
I'm not familiar with RadioMirror but I've not heard any comments on how the non-ham "listeners" would change frequency if a repeater went down or there was QRM, etc on the designated frequency of operation. #Hams could simply change frequency. #Non-hams typically would not know how to do that reliably. #Otherwise its a good idea. #

Locally we have discussed using PSK-31 (for ham to ham communications) since it can give printed copy, works reliably on low power and is secure (can transmit sensitive information securely, i.e. deaths, etc) - most people will not be able to receive it. #A downside is that computers are required and are expensive and portable laptops are not readily available to most hams.

73, Jess, w4pqk