Your Opinions

[K0HWY]

Howdy all,

I'm considering the possibility of doing a professional studio recording but wanted to do a random survey and get some feedback before diving in to it. As you may or may not know, there are all kinds of hidden costs associated with recording an album including licensing/royalties, musicians(whether you choose live or canned), studio time and of course, the cost of the discs and covers.

I figured this forum would be about as random as any place to get opinions so here's your opportunity. Even if you don't like classic country, I'd like to hear from you. My experience is that even though people may not like a particular style, they can sometimes offer objective opinions regarding things like style and authenticity.

If you feel the need to use obscene language to express your opinion, please do not do it on the board. A PM will be fine. :p

Click Here For Preview Takes (http://www.myspace.com/brucelongmusic)


Thanks in advance for your help and participation.

[WA5KRP]

Johnny Cash beat you to it. Buy ham gear.



WA5KRP
Texas

[K0HWY]

Oh yeah, I meant to add, I'm not doing Johnny Cash impersonations. :p I like his band's style and his voice range matches me pretty good. But I try to avoid certain "Cash" traits to try to create a little authenticity. Maybe that's not a good thing. :p

[kc9jwa]

Very nice, yeah i would say go for it, if its what you want and you enjoy, and ur instink follow it, cause now we practically live in hell, and finances are gettin worse i say do what makes you fell good.:)

[KE7HQY]

dupey dupe

[KE7HQY]

I like it. It's not a "complete original composition", which some purists will hound on. But really,

Go right ahead, and do what ever the hell you want with your music.

[WB3JLA]

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[NF9L]

Would you be recording cover songs or originals of this style? Just curious. So, these sample recordings were done Karaoke style. I even here some background singers once in a while. Would you be putting a band together and do some gigs or just go right to the studio? . . . good luck.

[al2i]

You could use the recordings to strut your stuff as a vocalist and try to get in a band somewhere, but you have already done that on myspace. You would need to check Craigslist to find a band that needs a vocalist. I know of one guy who went through 109 vocalist wannabees before he selected a new lead singer for his band.

Don't you need your own original material if you want to make money selling recordings?

[w7lpn]

Very nicely done. My Dad would like it. It's his style & he loves Cash.

[ab8ro]

Howdy all,

I'm considering the possibility of doing a professional studio recording but wanted to do a random survey and get some feedback before diving in to it.


Hi Bruce,

First, I've been listening to Johnny cash since about the age of three or four and I'm intimately familiar with all of the songs that you are singing. You have good taste in country music.

You've asked for feedback and so I suspect that you want honest feedback. First, I think that you have a pretty good voice, but, I think that it needs polish. Do you have any experience singing in bands? Specifically, you are off key at a few points, your timing is also stilted at quite a few places, and you often have a nasally tonality that, as Simon Cowle might say, is just weird. If you don't have a voice coach I think that you could benefit from one and I think you should invest more effort there before recording professionally. You might try recording songs by other artists.

I think that the timing issues are partly related to using generic backup tracks. It sounds as if you're waiting for your cue to sing. Perhaps you've played with bands and know what I'm about to say is true, that is, when you play with live musicians, or accompany yourself, there is a communication that happens which allows you to lead the music. This is difficult to do with backup tracks.

The other thing about prerecorded tracks is that it's very difficult to get the entire production to sound like you're playing in the same room. As a result, they definitely have a karoke quality that distracts from the result.

You should ask yourself what the goal is of recording in a studio? I don't think that your voice is good enough yet to sell records of covers. Do you write your own songs? A studio recording for someone without a band is very expensive and not likely to be worth the effort unless you have very specific goals and the skills to obtain those goals.

73,
Daryl

[k8ceb]

Good job. The sample songs I heard were nice. I would say though that you probably need to have some material that is not just Johnny Cash material. Try some other country western material and see how that goes. ;)
73,
Greg

[WB3JLA]

What is the perfect voice

I think just be your self sound like you self do not try to be some one else.
Take these for example they did not have perfect pitch or timing

Janice Joplin
Louie Armstrong
Lead Belly any body know who he was
Bob Dylan
Click below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ced8o50G9kg
Tiny Tim--- ok ok I should drop this one but he got Miss Vickie
Dolly Parton sounded like a little squeaky mouse
Whispering Bill Anderson
And the Blue Grass crowd sounded like they were singing thru their nose but it was good stuff

All of the girls want to sound like Shania Twain

Bruce if I get down to you neck of the woods I will bring my Sousaphone and set in
You do play Marches and Polkas

[ab8ro]

What is the perfect voice

I think just be your self sound like you self do not try to be some one else.
Take these for example they did not have perfect pitch or timing


You have a point, for sure.


Janice Joplin
Louie Armstrong
Lead Belly any body know who he was
Bob Dylan


All very talented. You can't play those people's records without turning heads even if the listener doesn't know who they are. Perfect pitch isn't important at all, relative pitch IS. Timing and feeling are even more important.


And the Blue Grass crowd sounded like they were singing thru their nose but it was good stuff


Indeed! But Johnny Cash most certainly did not. You might sell Johnny Cash covers with a nasally voice, but I doubt it, you can do it with a gravelly voice, Social Distortion is evidence of that.

[ab8ro]

Bob Dylan
Click below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ced8o50G9kg


Great clip. He plays very sloppy harp, I almost never hear him hit a single note, but it works for him.


Compare and contrast...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGUGXOxs6p0&feature=related

or if you like it refined..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCjwZAXcaRM

or maybe a little too refined...or...something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlWhDZIgOg&feature=related

If you like it raw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2jOaYkPvug&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZY7eUyUHnk&feature=related

[WB3JLA]

I agree some of that was RAW Daryl

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/supro66/rawmeat2.jpg

But they did their thing " THEY DID IT THEIR WAY " I bet they never play it the same way twice

I do not think you have to be perfect in our music world

I like going to a Music Fest and listing to the new talent trying to come up

Some over do it some soil their pants it is all about growing up

So grab a guitar and sing how you feel

I play Guitar I sing ,Thank GOD I have a day job

I keep the CH47 flying

I work for Boeing

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh238/troopertrax/ch47.jpg

[W6GQ]

I think you have a talent that is going in the right direction.

Have you looked at the new MAC computers?

You can save a boat load of money from a professional recording and get a fairly good quality mix and record a CD from the basic software MAC has to offer.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/

One day we will see you on TV and say, "Yeah, that guy used to post on the zed" and everyone will look at us like were crazy :)

Keep working the dream.

[ab8ro]

I agree some of that was RAW Daryl

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/supro66/rawmeat2.jpg

But they did their thing " THEY DID IT THEIR WAY " I bet they never play it the same way twice

I do not think you have to be perfect in our music world


Nor I, but, if you want to sell records then you have to give to the audience what they expect. Oh no, did he really say that? Yes I did. Of course I don't mean that you should "sell out", but, I do mean that if you want to sell to an audience that expects a high quality voice then you must have that voice. If you want to sell opera then it's highly likely that you're going to have to take some opera lessons. I don't think lightning slim could sell any opera records no matter how authentic his message.

The OP asked for advice about recording "professionally." To me this implies both a somewhat naive view of how to record music and also some expectations of the result. Even raw musicians hone their craft. You don't just pick up an instrument for the first time and then go record yourself the next day. So I took the OPs post to mean that he wanted feedback on how his voice fits within the context of the music that he was presenting. Mainstream classic country is not delta blues.

He obviously already knows how to record his voice with background tracks and does a decent job of it so I don't think that he was asking about alternatives to going into a studio such as doing it at home.



So grab a guitar and sing how you feel

I play Guitar I sing ,Thank GOD I have a day job


I heard that!

Here, you might appreciate this. It's the project that's kept me from working on projects that are more on topic in the homebrew forum for the last few weeks. It started life as a 1955 Magnatone 108 with a 5879 pentode preamp. It sounded like dirt, and not in a good way. It looked like someone else had been there first so I just stripped it down to bare chassis and rebuilt it using a Fender 5F2 princeton schematic with a 12ax7. I put bypass caps in the second triode for switchable gain and left out the tone control. The second knob controls reverb which was not stock, obviously. I had a nice little OC electronics pan from the 70's which fit perfectly in the bottom. I built a simplified version of the modern Fender Blues Jr. reverb amp and used a miniature power supply module taken from some 70s lab equipment. The end result is that I have a very nice little bedroom blues amp for a grand total of about $40 and little bit of sweat.

It sounds sweet, of course, what else would you expect from something covered in mother of toilet seat, loaded with 50s vintage iron, paper, and glass, and with a reverb that claims to have been made by beautiful girls under controlled atmospheric conditions?

[vk4agk]

What is the perfect voice (snipped)

Clear

No wobble

Adaptable octave

Male or female

Practically Non-existant in the Western worlds gutteral/nasly/sinusy drivel!

It seems all the Very practised sounds all seem to come from the places that need Bombing! (someone else's view that is) , Jealous also? again!. POV.

[w8hdu]

FWIW, recording is subjective. You find that some people prefer captured sound versus studio sound. Captured is where you set up a few mics in front of a band and what they produce is what you get, sort of like a live concert. Studio tends to be more pristine, using Countyman boxes to capture the sound of electric guitars and keyboards to the mix, and isolating the instruments so the audio engineer controls the mix of instruments and vocals.

Then, there are the microphone issues. Some prefer only Neumann mics, or classic RCA mics for that old school sound. I've use both, as well as Audio Technica, and even some old Shure 555s for a session. I'm sure the studio elite will cringe, but you can do some very good sound with some of the simplest and economical mics. It all depends on the style of the music, plus how you are using the microphone. As I have told other engineers, a mic is like a paint brush. It can produce art or simply cover a picture with paint. Same with sound, If you're using a compliment of inexpensive mics, you can get something pretty good.

Your recording location should be acoustically pure. Consider someplace where you don't have a lot of room reverb, (unless you want it). You may want to look at locations where sound would be better for recording. I once did some recordings and used a church. They were happy to let me have access for a Tuesday night for a donation to their church. I've also used open air locations, such as a field. The only thing that bothers you there is bird and insects.

Finally, whomever is doing the sound should not get too crazy with equalization. I know a local band that goes nuts by increasing bass by 6-10dB as well as putting in EQ bumps on drums and guitar to give it some "snap". The problem is, when listening on a good sound system (car or home) it sounds muddy.

As a rule of thumb, never do something to to your sound that you can't reproduce live on stage. Sound should be a reflection of your talent and not of your ability to post and modify audio.

Just a few tips from someone 40+ years in the biz. :)

[ab8ro]

FWIW, recording is subjective. You find that some people prefer captured sound versus studio sound. Captured is where you set up a few mics in front of a band and what they produce is what you get, sort of like a live concert. Studio tends to be more pristine, using Countyman boxes to capture the sound of electric guitars and keyboards to the mix, and isolating the instruments so the audio engineer controls the mix of instruments and vocals.

Then, there are the microphone issues. Some prefer only Neumann mics, or classic RCA mics for that old school sound. I've use both, as well as Audio Technica, and even some old Shure 555s for a session. I'm sure the studio elite will cringe, but you can do some very good sound with some of the simplest and economical mics. It all depends on the style of the music, plus how you are using the microphone. As I have told other engineers, a mic is like a paint brush. It can produce art or simply cover a picture with paint. Same with sound, If you're using a compliment of inexpensive mics, you can get something pretty good.

Your recording location should be acoustically pure. Consider someplace where you don't have a lot of room reverb, (unless you want it). You may want to look at locations where sound would be better for recording. I once did some recordings and used a church. They were happy to let me have access for a Tuesday night for a donation to their church. I've also used open air locations, such as a field. The only thing that bothers you there is bird and insects.

Finally, whomever is doing the sound should not get too crazy with equalization. I know a local band that goes nuts by increasing bass by 6-10dB as well as putting in EQ bumps on drums and guitar to give it some "snap". The problem is, when listening on a good sound system (car or home) it sounds muddy.


You bring up some good points, but, that's what you pay for when you record in a "pro" studio. You should have an engineer who knows what he's doing. In my experience when people who aren't in bands and don't write songs ask questions like these their expectation is that the studio will act as their engineer, their producer, and in a sense, their record label. The expectation is that they walk into the studio with money and walk out with a box of CDs. Ok, it takes a few weeks or so, but you get the idea.

[WS2L]

As a pro musician myself I have made it a point to slowly build a home recording studio that can and will save you money in the long run.

Currently my son and I are working on a project and everything is recorded right into a computer. With the software I can do things that could never be done in the past with tapes. The nice part about having a descent home studio is that we can work for as many hours as we want and do not have to watch the clock or worry about how much money this is costing. Having unlimited time on our hands allows us to get it perfect without the worry of how much I'm going to owe the studio.

[K0HWY]

Thanks for all the replies and advice guys. I was out of town all weekend with no access to a computer. I'll try to answer some of the questions that were asked a little later this evening. Right now, I'm going to hop in bed and try to get a little rest before going into work this evening. :D

[KV1M]

I've been playing in bands for 25 years and here's my opinion:

Do it.
Doesn't matter who does and doesn't like it, or what they have to say about it, just do it.

It's your music, it's your soul exposed by it, do what YOU want and those that like it will be there.
There are always the ones who won't like it, most times they couldn't whistle a clean note let alone actually play an instrument. Ignore them.

W2SL is right though, build yourself a studio if you can, even if it's just starting with Pro Tools and working on up to better mixers. You won't regret it.

Keep it up, good stuff.

[W5HTW]

I've been out of the business for a long time, so I'm certain things have changed. Getting into the studio is only one step of many.

1. Material. Original is best. It doesn't have to be penned by you. You can get good tunes from SEASAC easily, stuff that has never been recorded, no one has ever heard it. Thousands of writers have material sitting around, hoping someone will record it. And a lot of it is really very, very good stuff.

2. Studio. They aren't even close to free. I recorded a tune at Pete Drake's studio back in 1979 and it was 60 bucks an hour, just studio/engineer time, no band. I over-dubbed the voice on a two inch master. But that master had cost my friend $4,000 to make, with musicians and backup vocalists. Thirty years ago. What is it like today?

3. Pressing. Studios didn't do records. I don't think they do CDs. Not the big studios. They get a master, and farm it out to a pressing company, or at least that is what the did to vinyl. I don't think you walk out of the studio with CDs in hand. The master is sent to a production company, and you hope they get around to pressing your discs in a month. Used to be six weeks minimum.

4. Promotion. Now the big bucks come in. All the rest is peanuts compared to promotion. Unless you have a lot of friends who absolutely adore you and/or your music, and are willing to shell out the bucks for your CD,s you are going to spend thousands on promotion. And you have to have the discs on hand in order to promote them, so you have to complete step 3 above before the promotion even begins.

So back to my friend. He wanted so much to be a country singer. He would kill for it. Fortunately he had an extremely good paying job, and his wife worked, too. So he went to Nashville and cut records every few months. Singles, 45s. Each one ran him roughly 10 grand.

I was the country music DJ on a serious regional country station. He agreed to foot the bill for me to cut my tune (actually one of his) in Pete Drake's, if I would play a couple of his tunes on the air. Payola, I guess, but I accepted. So we went to Nashville and I did my thing. But he wasn't going to pay for pressing or promotion. He was just paying for the studio time. I walked out with a single stereo 1/4 inch tape, and a copy of the 2-inch master, from an 8-track recorder. Useless to me. I took the 1/4 inch and transferred it to a broadcast cartridge, just so I could play it for the guys back at the station. It wound up getting a LOT of (illegal) air play, while my friend got his tune played perhaps twice a week.

I'll tell ya, when you get to the promotion angle, you are going to need that oil well. Back then the minimum promotion package was about $3500. For a single!! . For that, the promoter mailed out a dozen or so copies of your recording to a dozen or so radio stations, and followed up with a phone call to the music director (that was me) to beg for air play. With a tightly controlled play list, the unknown had a really good chance his record wound up in the circular file.

I tried to listen to at least a few seconds' of every promo record I got, and if it was an album, I set the needle down in some segment of every cut. But only for 10 seconds. If I liked what I heard, I might play more of it to see what it sounded like. But not on the air. So it became very subjective. I had to like it or not like it. No one else heard it. If I thought it was trash, that is where it went. If I thought it deserved an occasional airplay, I might stick it in for between 10 and 11 at night. If I thought it was a great production, I might put it in a rotation for "new singles." If I thought it was totally fantastic, I might get it on the air once a day, hitting mid days, where time wasn't so frantic.

If I hated it, I did not accept phone calls from the promoter or the artist. And it didn't matter who the artist was, little or big or superstar. If they sent me a recording I didn't like, it didn't get air time. No matter who called.

So unless times have changed in the radio business, you are up against major walls in front of you. And major bucks. And if you are producing a CD, which is an album, only one of the tunes stands even a hobo's chance of air play. Play lists are tight, most these days are automated, and most don't even originate locally, but some far away satellite service. If you know the owner of a little 1 KW AM station, you may can get him to play a tune from your CD.

5. Finally, you don't sit home and sell records. Not even the BIG names can do that. You got to hit the road. You can do it alone, hiring a local band where you go, which is the cheapest way. The artist rarely makes any money on the recording. The money is in the road shows. And you have to pay BMI or SEASAC or ASCAP for the rights to perform ALL the tunes. Every time.

So! Bottom line! GO FOR IT! Have fun. But don't do it for the money. The money flow is in the opposite direction!

If I have cast enough cold water over this, and you still plan to do it (and I admit it is probably a lot different today!) then you are just determined enough that you might make it work! All it takes is deep pockets. And that determination.

But if you cover other people's work, the fees will eat you alive!

I turned down requests from some real "names" in the business. And I played some stuff from Poor Joe who cut one record and hocked his 49 Ford to do it. I chose material, not artist. And I still have about 350 45s in a box in my closet, from those promo days, and some of them are terrific recordings! But they never got air play. No time, no room. Couldn't replace Conway Twitty with Joe Podunk. Though I did on the 'picks' list.

Ya'all have fun!

[K0HWY]

Alright, I'll try to address a few questions now that I've had a little rest.

Would you be recording cover songs or originals of this style? Just curious. So, these sample recordings were done Karaoke style. I even here some background singers once in a while. Would you be putting a band together and do some gigs or just go right to the studio? . . . good luck.

My initial plan was to record cover songs or do a mixture of old obscure folk music with a classic country twist along with these more popular covers. The licensing fees make that last option more plausible but I'm still checking into that end of things.

IF I were to do anything for the public (and I wouldn't mind doing some local shows), I'd definitely have to have a band. People who are seeing a performer live need to be entertained from the first note to the last. Long instrumental solos on a karaoke track kill that because visually, there's nothing going on during those breaks. So, while I'd like to have a backup band for live performances (and even recordings for that matter), I'm not sure that's something I could pull off.

Thanks! :)

[K0HWY]

Don't you need your own original material if you want to make money selling recordings?

Certainly having your own material is more profitable. One local recording engineer recommended that I look into old folk songs that don't fall under licensing requirements. Of course, that will require a band and that's also money.

As best I can tell, songs that are licensed under BMI require a $0.091 per song fee. That doesn't look like much but you have to figure, that's $1 per album; $500 if you ordered 500 copies!

In addition to that (the mechanical license), you also have to get a license to use the tracks. Chartbuster's rate is $60 per song. 10 songs = $600.

The cost of licensing alone is over $1,000. So yeah, from a profitability standpoint, original holds some advantages.

[K0HWY]

Hi Bruce,

First, I've been listening to Johnny cash since about the age of three or four and I'm intimately familiar with all of the songs that you are singing. You have good taste in country music.

You've asked for feedback and so I suspect that you want honest feedback. First, I think that you have a pretty good voice, but, I think that it needs polish. Do you have any experience singing in bands? Specifically, you are off key at a few points, your timing is also stilted at quite a few places, and you often have a nasally tonality that, as Simon Cowle might say, is just weird. If you don't have a voice coach I think that you could benefit from one and I think you should invest more effort there before recording professionally. You might try recording songs by other artists.

I think that the timing issues are partly related to using generic backup tracks. It sounds as if you're waiting for your cue to sing. Perhaps you've played with bands and know what I'm about to say is true, that is, when you play with live musicians, or accompany yourself, there is a communication that happens which allows you to lead the music. This is difficult to do with backup tracks.

The other thing about prerecorded tracks is that it's very difficult to get the entire production to sound like you're playing in the same room. As a result, they definitely have a karoke quality that distracts from the result.

You should ask yourself what the goal is of recording in a studio? I don't think that your voice is good enough yet to sell records of covers. Do you write your own songs? A studio recording for someone without a band is very expensive and not likely to be worth the effort unless you have very specific goals and the skills to obtain those goals.

73,
Daryl

Thanks for the feedback Daryl.

First, regarding a voice coach, I had one many years ago but he's no longer in the area. He was a great benefit when he was around.

My nasally sound is something I'm trying to get rid of but it's easier said than done. I have a background as a bass singer is southern gospel quartets and usually sang with groups that had a "Kingsmen" style. The nasally bass worked very well under those circumstances but for doing what I'm trying to do now, it's a less desirable trait. Very hard to shake it though.

I realize the timing is off here and there and you're right, singing with tracks is harder than singing with live musicians. Much harder! As for singing off key, that is a big pet peeve of mine. I know when I do it (for the most part) and that more than anything else, pisses me off. If you will, kindly point out the places you heard me off key. In 'I Walk The Line', I'm aware that I got off a little at the end and that could be easily corrected. But yeah, any other places that you could point out would help.

:)

[ab8ro]

3. Pressing. Studios didn't do records. I don't think they do CDs. Not the big studios. They get a master, and farm it out to a pressing company, or at least that is what the did to vinyl. I don't think you walk out of the studio with CDs in hand. The master is sent to a production company, and you hope they get around to pressing your discs in a month. Used to be six weeks minimum.


Right, I didn't mean to imply "literally" that you walk out the same day with CDs but that most people who haven't recorded expect that is the result and the studio will take care of that process. There are quite a few smaller studios these days that do exactly that and they cater their "packages" to people who just want to have their music on CD for whatever reason. For very small quantities they will, in fact, just "burn" you some CDRs. "Get three songs and 10CDRs for $99"

Of course there is generally no promotion whatsoever. It is the music equivalent of "vanity press."

If you're going to spend time in a studio at X bucks an hour you really should have specific goals defined.

Are you recording a demo? What are you going to do with the demo?
Are you recording for fun and just plan to give CDs to friends, family, etc?

It's a good learning experience if you've never done it. But it isn't "a necessary step", or even "the right step" on a path to a recording career or even a recording hobby.