Who Should Get to Use the Freq?

[N0WVA]

In the evening, when 75 is the most viable band for communications of 200 miles or so, I like to come home from work and talk with a few fellow amateurs 2 or 3 times a week. We meet on a certain frequency, and if there is congestion, we go to one that is totally clear. But later on into the evening, it seems like no matter where we are on the band, the frequency "regulars" come by and either strike up a conversation really close, or slowly and rudely take over right on the same frequency. So as to not start a fight, I try to seek out an open spot, sometimes to no avail. Now, I know that by the rules, the frequency is under the jurisdiction of whomever was there first, being so till it is relinquished by the first user(s). Trying to counter with bully tactics always seems to be the most unpleasant experience, although I know there are some operators who live for confrontation and will "blast " anyone off the air should they even try to hold there rightful ground. So Ive setteled for usually moving around trying to find openings several times a night so as to not cause a problem. I just wondered what everyone thinks of this, and am I doing the right thing? 73, Doug.

[AC7UX]

Try 160 meters Doug, not much there. A real wide open freq. If you can't get there then you gotta deal with it. No one but the ARRL, it seems, get's to have their own freq. to broadcast on exclusively. besides it might do you some good to meet new people and expect them to be included in on your QSO's.

[KD5KUF]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0WVA @ Nov. 30 2002,13:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the evening, when 75 is the most viable band for communications of 200 miles or so, I like to come home from work and talk with a few fellow amateurs 2 or 3 times a week. We meet on a certain frequency, and if there is congestion, we go to one that is totally clear. But later on into the evening, it seems like no matter where we are on the band, the frequency &quot;regulars&quot; come by and either strike up a conversation really close, or slowly and rudely take over right on the same frequency. So as to not start a fight, I try to seek out an open spot, sometimes to no avail.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Set up properly for 2 meter ssb and 150-250 miles is usually a piece of cake, and you won't be squeezed out by the HF crush and rude operators. There is a better class (or should I say classier group) of operators on 2m ssb, (even if some are only techs), than in some HF bands.

I have my asbestos PJs on with the big &quot;S&quot; on the chest so flame away, I won't feel a thing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[W5JO]

I'm sorry Doug, but I can't agree with changing bands unless you choose to do so for whatever reason. I don't know what kind of transmitter you use, but if you have one capable of higher power, put it on the air and continue to talk to your friends.

This is a common, recurring problem on 80/75 meters. It has been a problem since I became a ham over 40 years ago and won't go away. Should the SSBers get 1 1/2 kc below you and start operating USB, just fire up your SSB rig and ask them nicely to QSY. I realize this probably won't work, but have your tape recorder going and when they blast you just send it to the FCC.

This kind of rudeness is one of the things Riley Hollinsworth detests. It is something that will take time to resolve but is an issue we must confront and try to train others to follow. If they are untrainable they can explain their operations to someone of authority. FCC Enforcement has taken the stance that even a net with a published frequency should move so as not to interfer with ongoing communications.

So if you feel like fighting it, do so.

73 Jim
de W5JO

[AC7UX]

Last time I was in oklahoma it seemed to be kinda flat. 2 meter SSB might be good in the flat lands, but would you still have the same success two hundred miles out with mountian and hills all around? SSB is good to get away from the C.B. FM techies on 2 meters, but is it good for multi state communications? I don't know, maybe two hundred foot towers, 1500 watt pep amps and some luck might do it.

[K9STH]

WVA: What power level are you running? What type of antenna are you using? I am not trying to be an &quot;educated donkey&quot;, but 75 meters is a very noisey band and the antenna definitely makes a difference. Right now I have two antennas up that cover the 80/75 meter band. One is a HyGain HyTower (now being marketed by mfj) and the other is an inverted-vee with the center just over 50 feet in the air and then it drops down to 6 feet.

When I run the HyTower (vertical, low angle of radiation), I can hear close-in stations very well. However, they have quite a difficult time hearing me no matter if I am running &quot;barefoot&quot;, about 100 watts, or 1400 watts output (my linear just won't quite make 1500 watts!). It can be very frustrating. Then, if I switch over to the inverted-vee, I have no problems at all running barefoot. Now, on stations outside of the 200 - 300 mile radius, they are very strong on the inverted-vee, but they have much difficulty copying me even with 1400 watts. But, if I switch to the HyTower, with the lower angle of radiation, those stations have no problems at all with my signal.

What I am saying is that even the type of antenna that you are using can have a very great affect on your signal strength. If the other station can't hear you, then they are going to transmit right over you. Also, the band does move around a bit. That is what you think is a clear frequency in your area may already be occupied elsewhere. Then, when the &quot;skip&quot; changes just a little, those QSOs that were taking place on the same frequency suddenly start interferring with you.

Now, that is not to say that a very small minority of stations are not being considerate. However, in my experience, the vast majority of interference problems on 80/75 meters are caused by things like antennas, power levels, &quot;skip&quot; conditions, etc. Frankly, a lot of the stations that are interferring with you won't even hear you if you call them. Especially during the warmer months, the noise level on 80 meters can be S-9 or higher, and this is with a receiver that has an S-Meter that is truly calibrated for S-9 = 50 microvolts rather than a lot of the newer equipment that reads S-9 with only a very few microvolts of signal. If your signal is not S-9 or better, the other station will never hear anything out of you.

I know that it can be frustrating, but it is the &quot;facts of life&quot; if you operate on 80/75 meters.

Now, Oklahoma is flat in some areas, but not so flat in others! The same goes for Texas. Far west Texas has mountains, east Texas and north-central Texas has rolling hills, southeast Texas has forests, etc. You can't tell anything without resorting to a topographic map!

Glen, K9STH

[N0WVA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KD5KUF @ Nov. 30 2002,14:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0WVA @ Nov. 30 2002,13:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the evening, when 75 is the most viable band for communications of 200 miles or so, I like to come home from work and talk with a few fellow amateurs 2 or 3 times a week. We meet on a certain frequency, and if there is congestion, we go to one that is totally clear. But later on into the evening, it seems like no matter where we are on the band, the frequency &quot;regulars&quot; come by and either strike up a conversation really close, or slowly and rudely take over right on the same frequency. So as to not start a fight, I try to seek out an open spot, sometimes to no avail.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Set up properly for 2 meter ssb and 150-250 miles is usually a piece of cake, and you won't be squeezed out by the HF crush and rude operators. There is a better class (or should I say classier group) of operators on 2m ssb, (even if some are only techs), than in some HF bands.

I have my asbestos PJs on with the big &quot;S&quot; on the chest so flame away, I won't feel a thing. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Hi, Joe. Yes I thought about that, actually would be nice to see how much distance could be squeezed out of 2m here in Mo. However, Id have to be awfully nice to the wife to get extra operating equipment!.Tnx, 73, Doug

[N0WVA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W5JO @ Nov. 30 2002,15:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sorry Doug, but I can't agree with changing bands unless you choose to do so for whatever reason. #I don't know what kind of transmitter you use, but if you have one capable of higher power, put it on the air and continue to talk to your friends. #

This is a common, recurring problem on 80/75 meters. #It has been a problem since I became a ham over 40 years ago and won't go away. #Should the SSBers get 1 1/2 kc below you and start operating USB, just fire up your SSB rig and ask them nicely to QSY. #I realize this probably won't work, but have your tape recorder going and when they blast you just send it to the FCC. #

This kind of rudeness is one of the things Riley Hollinsworth detests. #It is something that will take time to resolve but is an issue we must confront and try to train others to follow. #If they are untrainable they can explain their operations to someone of authority. #FCC Enforcement has taken the stance that even a net with a published frequency should move so as not to interfer with ongoing communications. #

So if you feel like fighting it, do so. #

73 #Jim
de W5JO[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Jim,you might call it stupid, but one of the things we do when we are talking is to reduce our power levels while still maintaining a reliable contact. Most of the time ten watts or less makes for a really comfortable conversation. But what usually happens is someone starts up right on frequency, and says, &quot; I can hear somebody in there , but they are really weak!&quot; And then they just continue on without further thought of the other party. Ive always thought that if you even detect others nearby, you shouldnt even transmit. Sure, I do have my homebrew 4-1000 nearby, but I only like to warm it up when Im trying to talk with the fellows down in McMurdo Antarctica, or if the static is really bad. Maybe I have to run the amp ALL the time to keep from being intimidated, but even this doesnt gaurantee I wont be harassed by the&quot; owners&quot; of the 75 meter band. 73, Doug

[N0WVA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K9STH @ Nov. 30 2002,15:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WVA: #What power level are you running? #What type of antenna are you using? #I am not trying to be an &quot;educated donkey&quot;, but 75 meters is a very noisey band and the antenna definitely makes a difference. #Right now I have two antennas up that cover the 80/75 meter band. #One is a HyGain HyTower (now being marketed by mfj) and the other is an inverted-vee with the center just over 50 feet in the air and then it drops down to 6 feet.

When I run the HyTower (vertical, low angle of radiation), I can hear close-in stations very well. #However, they have quite a difficult time hearing me no matter if I am running &quot;barefoot&quot;, about 100 watts, or 1400 watts output (my linear just won't quite make 1500 watts!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. #It can be very frustrating. #Then, if I switch over to the inverted-vee, I have no problems at all running barefoot. #Now, on stations outside of the 200 - 300 mile radius, they are very strong on the inverted-vee, but they have much difficulty copying me even with 1400 watts. #But, if I switch to the HyTower, with the lower angle of radiation, those stations have no problems at all with my signal.

What I am saying is that even the type of antenna that you are using can have a very great affect on your signal strength. #If the other station can't hear you, then they are going to transmit right over you. #Also, the band does move around a bit. #That is what you think is a clear frequency in your area may already be occupied elsewhere. #Then, when the &quot;skip&quot; changes just a little, those QSOs that were taking place on the same frequency suddenly start interferring with you.

Now, that is not to say that a very small minority of stations are not being considerate. #However, in my experience, the vast majority of interference problems on 80/75 meters are caused by things like antennas, power levels, &quot;skip&quot; conditions, etc. #Frankly, a lot of the stations that are interferring with you won't even hear you if you call them. #Especially during the warmer months, the noise level on 80 meters can be S-9 or higher, and this is with a receiver that has an S-Meter that is truly calibrated for S-9 = 50 microvolts rather than a lot of the newer equipment that reads S-9 with only a very few microvolts of signal. #If your signal is not S-9 or better, the other station will never hear anything out of you.

I know that it can be frustrating, but it is the &quot;facts of life&quot; if you operate on 80/75 meters.

Now, Oklahoma is flat in some areas, but not so flat in others! #The same goes for Texas. #Far west Texas has mountains, east Texas and north-central Texas has rolling hills, southeast Texas has forests, etc. #You can't tell anything without resorting to a topographic map!

Glen, K9STH[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Glen, Im using a Paragon with a dipole@ 50 ft, flat across the top. Also, to announce my presence in case they cant hear me, a homebrew 4-1000. Is there such a thing as one way propagation? Tnx, 73, Doug

[N0PU]

I don't understand...

JO gave you the answer...

When one of these jerks comes in there and won't let you continue... ask one of your friends for a time/date check and another for a freq check and then mail the tape...

Let Riley do his job... He has shown on many occassions that he is willing to do so if given the facts...

If Riley gets enough tapes with the proper info some of the worst offenders can be cleaned up...

Just my humble opinion..

Harry Kholer N0PU

[KD7KOY]

In my experence I don't think &quot;time on the air&quot; has anything to do with courtesy or obeying the rules...as in everything you always have the &quot;poopyheads&quot;. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
On the other hand it could be a case of &quot;terminally&quot; stupid. Maybe they can't read a VFO.
Roll the tape... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AC7UX]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">



Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 2001
Posted: Nov. 30 2002,16:35

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand...

JO gave you the answer...

When one of these jerks comes in there and won't let you continue... ask one of your friends for a time/date check and another for a freq check and then mail the tape...
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> Two problems with this. Number 1. riley is notorious for doing nothing about interference,(w6nut come's to mind) and number 2 it takes away from your QSO time. not to mention all the money wasted on tapes, (ask N0ASS about the wasted money sending tapes in.)

[K9STH]

For WVA:

A 75 meter dipole at 50 feet is still pretty much a &quot;cloud warmer&quot;, that is, good for close in work but not much good for working out a ways, at least no where near as good as an antenna with a low angle of radiation. It is pretty much &quot;akin&quot; to my inverted-vee with the apex at 50 feet. Remember that 50 feet is still well under a quarter-wave at 75 meters and it takes at least a half-wave for the antenna to start exhibiting the normal dipole characteristics.

Thus, I would think that your signal is &quot;way down&quot; to those stations that are outside of the 200 - 300 mile radius even though you are copying them fine. Also, &quot;announcing&quot; your presence with a 4-1000 is fine, but unless you run it all the time, your signal will be &quot;down in the mud&quot; and thus will be pretty much ignored if it can be copied. As I said before, I can run 1400 watts to either antenna and those stations that are not favored by the pattern can't, for all practical purposes, hear me. Changing antennas makes a definite difference, but then the stations that were favored by the first antenna have problems hearing me. You just can't win for losing!

Those who criticize those who hear &quot;something in the mud&quot; and then go on operating don't know the band very well. There is always someone in the mud on 75 meters no matter where you operate most of the time. The propagation is such that there will be several QSOs on the same frequency at any time. When the &quot;skip&quot; changes just a little, then various stations start &quot;butting heads&quot;.

I definitely admit that there are a small number of people who don't care if they are interferring, that is, start a QSO on an obviously inhabited frequency. But, the vast majority of people operate based on what they hear at their particular location at that time. It is possible for one location to have a very low noise level and for another location to have a very high noise level. Those stations operating in the high noise level area cannot hear stations anywhere near as weak as those in the low noise areas. Thus, they can start operating on what appears to be a completely open frequency (they can't hear anything even if the ask if the frequency is in use, etc.) even though there are stations that would be readable if the noise level was reduced.

As I said before, operating on 75 meters you have to take your chances because propagation, noise level, signal level, etc., are all factors. Also, there is such a thing as &quot;one way skip&quot; although it is much less common than the normal &quot;two way skip&quot;.

Glen, K9STH

[ai4ep]

a station mentioned earlier about 2 meter ssb...why not try 6 meter ssb...it works fairly well in North Alabama, we even have a net at 9 pm on 50.150 monday through Friday nights... it might be worth a try, and if the band opens up ( like it some times does un-expectantly) then you can get in on some 6 meter dx... just offering an idea that might not have been thought of ( trying to HELP )... # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif # # kd4amg

[k3sam]

My 2 cents. #75 meters changes, sometimes rapidly. #So when the one qso starts up, it is quite possible they don't hear you at your 10 watts. #I'm not defending them by any means. #However, I'm sure that if you make your station known, increase power briefly, then they have no excuse but to move. #The FCC clearly states to use only the power needed to make your qso, in this case 10 watts is fine for your group, however an increase for the other group may be needed. #Second, believe me, tapes do work. #So take everyones advice and start recording if that doesn't work.

As Riley said in an interview on 3.990 early this year or late last year, send regular sized cassette tapes, not the micro. #Time and date stamp them. #If they are too close to you in frequency, make sure you go up and down, noting the frequencies. #Also, if you have a counter on your tape recorder, note the position on the tape where the infactions occur and provide a transcript. #When you send them in, send in a signed &quot;formal complaint&quot;.

Tapes are not that expensive. #I keep Sony HF 90 minute tapes here, and buy them 12 at a time. #Normal cost is $6. #Not bad for high quality name brand tapes. #When you do mail them, make sure you tell the post office they are audio media, not to x-ray. #Also, you get a discount on the mailing itself for audio media.

Good Luck and 73,
K3SAM, Sam

[N0WVA]

Thank you for all of your comments. I have been reluctant to take any legal action for basically one reason. I didnt feel that the FCC really cared about amateur radio enough to actually react on a whining hams' problem, but it also seems that a majority of you favor this as a solution. So maybe they will help after all. I have noticed some action on Mr.Hollingsworth in the recent year or so. So perhaps it is partly my own fault. Going to the store tomorrow to get my blank tapes. 73, Doug

[K6UEY]

I think I see the root of your problem and several people touched on the answer. Having operated 75 for many years there are many people who have the antenna at 15 to 30 feet operating on 75 and to be heard they run the legal limit or close to it. You running just 10 watts will never be heard and will get stepped on every time.
Are they being discourteous,that probably could be and may be debated,but they are there. As crowded as band conditions are on 75 even in the wee hours of the morning running 10 watts you might just as well be on the dummy load. If you want others to respect your position on the frequency they have to first hear you and know you are in there.A dipole at 50 feet should put out a resonable signal with at least 100 watts try it and see if they know your there. One other factor,the standard SSB rig uses any where from 2.2 kc to 2.7 kc filters so a reasonable spacing of 3 kc's will allow adjacent channel operation with a minimum of QRM and that is what the standard always was, but the newer crowd like to move in to 2kc and even some times 1 kc spacing and there is no way both can use the same bandwidth with out QRM #so most merely crank up the power to defend their position and the race begins.To run a G5RV or any antenna at less than 40 feet and try to make up the difference with a kilowatt of power on 75 meters is a prominet display of inexperience, but you will hear them in there any night of the week. Try to 100 watt level,you will be heard,life is too short for QRP.....HIHI
It can be very costly sending tapes to Riley and nothing ever comes of them they just vanish into the black hole of bureaucracy.
There are a lot of nice and considerate guys on 75 you just have to look a little harder to find them now.
75 and 160 in the city separate the men from the boys.enjoy!!!! # ..............73, # ORV

[kc4zgp]

&quot;Who gets the frequency?&quot;

Since non-whites are not allowed on the air, 'tis a difficult answer.

Kraus

[AC7UX]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">&quot;Who gets the frequency?&quot;

Since non-whites are not allowed on the air, 'tis a difficult answer.

Kraus[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> HUH?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[kc4zgp]

Simple!

If non-whites were on the air, whites go first. It's the law!

I'm glad to have cleared up this matter once and for all.

Kraus

[K9STH]

KC4ZGP:

Anymore comments like this &quot;non-whites&quot; thing and you will join the very exclusive organization consisting of those people who have been banned from this site! It was crass, un-called-for, smart-alec, etc.

You have been warned!

Glen, K9STH
One of the QRZ.com moderators

[W1RFI]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AC7UX @ Nov. 29 2002,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">riley is notorious for doing nothing about interference,(w6nut come's to mind)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The stories reported at:

http://www.arrl.org/htdig/?method=and&amp;words=W6NUT (http://www.arrl.org/htdig/?method=and&words=W6NUT)

notwithstanding...

I am up for a lobster dinner wager that Riley cleans this up eventually. Which side of the bet do you want to be on? :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

[W1RFI]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0WVA @ Nov. 29 2002,21:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have noticed some action on Mr.Hollingsworth in the recent year or so.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would characterize it as a lot more than &quot;some action.&quot; See http://www.arrl.org/news/enforcement_logs/ for the record on most of Riley's enforcement actions.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

[K9STH]

For Doc:

The difference between antennas, his being primarily a &quot;cloud warmer&quot; and other people running antennas that have a lower angle of radiation is one of the things that I have been trying to &quot;get across&quot;.

Unfortunately, many people do not recognize the problems that antenna types, propagation, power levels, noise levels, distance to be covered, etc., induce into the equation. I would be willing to be that 99 percent of the &quot;interference&quot; on 75 meters is completely unintentional. There are, of course, a very small number of amateurs who do cause problems. But, unless the interference is obviously intentional (cat calls, snide remarks, music being played, and so forth) making tapes, contacting the FCC, etc., is a waste of your time and their time.

If you do make an official complaint, you should also include information on what type of antenna you are using, if horizontal height above ground, your transmitting power output, and similar information as well as the alledged interference tapes. This will enable the FCC to make a better determination of your complaint.

The idea of a &quot;clear&quot; frequency on which to make your QSO is nice in theory, but practically impossible in the &quot;real world&quot; at many times during the day. If you cannot communicate on a particular frequency, then often the only solution is to change frequency. Sometimes the band is so crowded that you cannot find a &quot;clear&quot; frequency anywhere. Those are the breaks of the game!

Glen, K9STH

[N0WVA]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W1RFI @ Dec. 02 2002,08:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0WVA @ Nov. 29 2002,21:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have noticed some action on Mr.Hollingsworth in the recent year or so.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would characterize it as a lot more than &quot;some action.&quot; See http://www.arrl.org/news/enforcement_logs/ for the record on most of Riley's enforcement actions.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I never new that page existed, thanks for the info, very enlightening. 73, Doug