Digital TV: I'm impressed! [Archive]

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G4OIM

07-21-2008, 09:46 AM

Here in the UK we have digital TV which is transmitted along with analog.
I have a small portable analog color set in a downstairs room which I use in the evenings. It has a little loop antenna which I have to rotate for the best signal when I change channels. There are 5 analog channels available at my home QTH which is near London England.Channel 5 is very grainy but just about watchable.
Last week, I was passing one of the electronic stores here in Lnodon and saw a digital set top box at a very reasonable price. I made the purchase and took it home. When it was powered up it started to scan and picked up about 80 channels. This includes TV and radio.All channels were received perfectly without any adjustment of the antenna. The box is small, only about 12" by 6" and sits on top of the TV.The cost? £18 (thats about $36). Money well spent I thought.
Is there a comparable system in the US?

73 de Peter G4OIM

N2ACX

07-21-2008, 12:41 PM

Digital TV is super. I have two analog sets left and bought two of those converters with my gov't coupons and haven't even plugged them in yet.
The 3 digital flat screens we have I tried a UHF hoop antenna on the back of the set and received many stations with flawless quality. A rooftop UHF antenna would work better than any of the old multi-element VHF and no snow, if the signal falls below a certain level the image freezes that's about it.
Great choice going digital. The manufacturers are capitalizing on the AM-FM band digital receivers now claiming they cost much more to make, NOT !, a 12khz IF instead of 455Khz or 10.7Mhz for the old FM. $299.00 for a digital AM radio? Are they NUTS or what LOLOL. I'll wait till they get to $39.95 where they should be. They always "milk" something new to the hilt.
Anyway, great change going digital...........
73 N2ACX Gary

N3VMC

07-21-2008, 01:25 PM

N2ACX

07-21-2008, 01:50 PM

N3VMC
How does digital TV compare to HDTV?

Depends if you purchased a REAL HDTV,at least 1080i or 1920x1080. Usually they are something less than 1080i. Or 720p (progressive)720p format is often noted as 1280x720.
1080i, 16:9 aspect ratio is so called :real HDTV" Both are great formats and some say 720p looks better, oh well.....
73 Gary N2ACX

N0WVA

07-21-2008, 03:05 PM

Digital TV is good if you have the transmitting tower located in your back yard. Start getting out 35 miles or so, and outdoor antennas are needed, and go past 60 miles you probably will be approaching the cliff effect more times than not.

This has been my experience. Also, google "Centris DTV". Theres going to be more people without a signal than the FeCCes is letting on.

And if I were really a stickler, Id say DTV actually has a worse picture than a good analog one. Depending on the station, digital transmissions can contain tons of noticable compression artifacts, enough to disrupt detail.

The people that will benefit from this are those who live maybe 20 miles or less from the transmitter. Everyone one else will have to deal with less coverage and less portability.

One other thing, if the electric goes out, that little battery set will be useless. I havent seen many DC operated converters. Fort some reason these converter boxes require quite a bit of power. The one I use draws 7 watts! I can hardly hold my hand on the plastic case!

N3VMC

07-21-2008, 03:05 PM

N2RJ

07-21-2008, 03:54 PM

One other thing, if the electric goes out, that little battery set will be useless. I havent seen many DC operated converters. Fort some reason these converter boxes require quite a bit of power. The one I use draws 7 watts! I can hardly hold my hand on the plastic case!

I have a DTV tuner that connects to my laptop and is powered by a USB port.

wa4brl

07-21-2008, 04:29 PM

I brought my first HDTV home just two weeks ago. I had a modest VHF/UHF antenna in the attic and it worked great for all but two of the local stations. These particular stations are both on a tower about fifty miles away and are broadcasting on reduced power (relative to after the February switchover, I'd guess). One signal was weak but above the digital threshold more than 99% of the time. The other signal was marginal, varying above and below the threshold making it unwatchable. I moved the antenna outdoors on a chimney mount and both of those signals are now way above the threshold. Amazing what removing plywood, tarpaper, roofing nails, and shingles from the path can do for signals in the 600-700 MHz range.

The set is a 56" LED DLP and the HD image quality is amazing. Some stations are broadcasting 720P and others 1080I. Still, I was surprised at the variety of media being integrated into those signals. Some video is shot in standard 480I (NTSC), others in an obvious high resolution format with the old 3:2 aspect ratio, while others are in full 16:9 HD. I see the greatest media variety within local news broadcasts, but there are some variations amongst network feeds too. I guess this will shake out fairly quickly after February.

N2RJ

07-21-2008, 04:33 PM

For those of you in the lucky select markets including FiOS, Fox News and Fox Business is in HD. I view the feed from master control and it looks awesome.

CNN is also in HD.

AE6IP

07-21-2008, 04:52 PM

Yes, the US has digital TV and currently it is transmitted along with the analog. That will change in February 09, when analog TV goes away in this country.

The US digital broadcast standard is, of course, different than the one you're using. We broadcast ATSC (the digital format) using a modulation scheme called 8vsb (for "eight vestigial sidebands). For a given transmitter power level 8vsb has a poorer ranger than analog broadcast.

ATSC is a multiplexed signal, and an ATSC channel can be provisioned as a single high-definition (HD) channel, or as multiple alternative lower definition channels, usually 4 standard-definition (SD) channels. In addition to broadcast, ATSC is what is carried by cable providers, though they use a different modulation scheme than 8vsb.

An analog TV will not do a digital signal justice, for various reasons, mainly that its scan rates aren't up to it. An analog CRT monitor may, depending on its maximum capabilities.

A digital TV may do a digital signal justice. That depends on a few factors. Rather than covering all the possible cases, I'll stick to LCD displays. (There's also standard CRT, various kinds of projectors, and plasma, to deal with.)

LCD displays have a limitation: Output on them only looks good at one resolution, which is fixed by the design of the display. To oversimplify, if you have an LCD that's good for SD, it's not going to do HD justice, and if you have an LCD that's good for HD, it's going to make all the artifacts in SD look worse.

In addition, if the source media is analog, then the process of translation to digital formats can introduce artifacts, as well. Converting a movie from film to digital is an art form.

In short, an HDTV, (real 1080p) when presented with an HD signal that was originated by HD cameras will have the highest quality video. An SDTV when presented with an SD signal that was originated by SD cameras will have a higher quality video than analog broadcast (NTSC). An analog TV presented with SD signal originated with SD cameras will also give a better image than it will on an analog TV. An analog TV, (unless it's a computer CRT capable of 1080p) won't do a good job on an HDTV signal. An HDTV may or may not do a good job on SD or analog, depending on whether it's an LCD, CRT, or Plasma, and depending on the nature of the decode software it uses to display the SD.

None of the above will make poor quality input look better than it is, whether the input is analog, SD, or HD.

And, finally, the size of the display matters. If your TV is smaller than a certain size, you won't be able to detect the difference.

AE6IP

07-21-2008, 04:53 PM

I have a DTV tuner that connects to my laptop and is powered by a USB port.

DTV tuners don't draw much power; especially those that rely on some other hardware to do the display drawing.

It's DTV to NTSC conversion that's drawing the power.

AE6IP

07-21-2008, 04:56 PM

For those of you in the lucky select markets including FiOS, Fox News and Fox Business is in HD. I view the feed from master control and it looks awesome.

CNN is also in HD.

Newsreaders in HD is a waste of video, no matter which feed.

If you want awesome, get National Geographic TV's HD feed and display it on a 1080i display larger than 32".

n6hle

07-21-2008, 04:59 PM

I have absolutely no need for one of those converter boxes. I get 268 channels of digital television from DirecTV on all of my TVs. The living room has 95 high-def channels! Best part of it: It's completely FREE!

n6hle

07-21-2008, 05:02 PM

N3VMC

Depends if you purchased a REAL HDTV,at least 1080i or 1920x1080. Usually they are something less than 1080i. Or 720p (progressive)720p format is often noted as 1280x720.
1080i, 16:9 aspect ratio is so called :real HDTV" Both are great formats and some say 720p looks better, oh well.....
73 Gary N2ACX

720p DOES look better if there is a lot of motion on your picture. The progressive scanning helps smooth the movements. For programs without a lot of movement 1080i is much better as it has more pixels. My general viewing preferences are 720p for sports, video games and action movies, 1080i for everything else.

W8NSI

07-21-2008, 05:44 PM

Ive had satellite radio for a few years now (XM) and I rarely listen to regular radio....who would pay for an HD radio anyway?

How does digital TV compare to HDTV?

Yeah, why pay for an HD radio when you can pay for XM radio? :D

n6hle

07-21-2008, 05:46 PM

Yeah, why pay for an HD radio when you can pay for XM radio? :D

:eek:Rather, why pay for either when you can download MP3s and burn to CD for free? :eek:

N3VMC

07-21-2008, 07:36 PM

Yeah, why pay for an HD radio when you can pay for XM radio? :D

What are the benefits of HD radio over satellite?

XM is nationwide......if Im listening to the 80's station here in Philadelphia and I drive to NYC....its still the same station....I dont have to find a good local FM broadcast. I go camping a lot and XM comes in handy sitting by the river...fishing. :D

n6hle

07-21-2008, 07:41 PM

What are the benefits of HD radio over satellite?

XM is nationwide......if Im listening to the 80's station here in Philadelphia and I drive to NYC....its still the same station....I dont have to find a good local FM broadcast. I go camping a lot and XM comes in handy sitting by the river...fishing. :D

Aside from being able to listen to the same station from Los Angeles to New York with satellite, in A LOT of radio markets there is NO HD radio available yet. Not to mention that HD radio is still terrestrial radio AND to the same decency rules as regular analog FM stations, thus the music is unedited! Also, with MOST satellite radio music stations there is no commercials. In my opinion CDs are the best way to go, but satellite is a very close second.

N3VMC

07-21-2008, 07:44 PM

Aside from being able to listen to the same station from Los Angeles to New York with satellite, in A LOT of radio markets there is NO HD radio available yet. Not to mention that HD radio is still terrestrial radio AND to the same decency rules as regular analog FM stations, thus the music is unedited! Also, with MOST satellite radio music stations there is no commercials. In my opinion CDs are the best way to go, but satellite is a very close second.

CD's?

What are those?

(Fumbles with his iPod Touch...):D

99% of the XM stations I listen to have no commercials.....I think XM Comedy has a few once in a while. Local FM stations have gone down the crapper IMO.....I originally purchased XM after they took a very popular station off the air. This was my protest and has been to this very day.

n6hle

07-21-2008, 07:51 PM

CD's?

What are those?

(Fumbles with his iPod Touch...):D

99% of the XM stations I listen to have no commercials.....I think XM Comedy has a few once in a while. Local FM stations have gone down the crapper IMO.....I originally purchased XM after they took a very popular station off the air. This was my protest and has been to this very day.

I never thought I'd say this, but I guess I'm just old school. Everybody in my house has an MP3 player of some sort, except for me. I guess I just thought they were going to be a short lived fad and be obsolete rather quickly. Speaking of fads, anybody remember Mini-Discs? Yet another brilliant Sony invention that never took off.

N9MOQ

07-21-2008, 08:24 PM

. .

k4kyv

07-21-2008, 08:52 PM

About a year ago I bought a Sony "consumer grade" minidisc recorder/player for about $100. I use it all the time. Much better quality than a cassette machine, plus it is easier to find recorded tracks on the disc than on a tape. If I record standard broadcast FM off the air, the playback quality sounds to me just as good as the original.

BTW, the HD in "HD Radio" originally stood for "hybrid digital"; it never meant "high definition".

Now, it doesn't officially stand for anything. It is merely Ibiquity's (the company given the monopoly over digital broadcasting in the US by the FCC) trademark. Note the upper-case R in the name.

An FCC-mandated monopoly, the company collects a hefty annual licence fee from every broadcast station that transmits it, and a royalty fee from the manufacturer for every receiver produced with "HD" capability.

HD Radio promises clarity and diversity. But what it really is, is a high-level corporate scam, a huge carny shill. And to top it all off, HD Radio, aka IBOC, is making a mess out of the night-time AM band.

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/music/hd_radio_on_the_offense/Content?oid=392662

N2RJ

07-21-2008, 09:01 PM

Newsreaders in HD is a waste of video, no matter which feed.

What we've done is put an info bar on the side of the screen with news headlines, stocks and the like. I think it's pretty neat. That's not there all the time. Some shows utilize the full screen.

And it's not just the newsreaders that are in HD, btw. Some of the reports are in HD. ( I routinely see people walking out of here with HD cameras to report news events from the field, in HD.)

I also enjoy HDNet's news in HD, even though it's Dan Rather.

If you want awesome, get National Geographic TV's HD feed and display it on a 1080i display larger than 32".

I have a 1080p display @56" and out of all of them I enjoy PBS the most for some reason.

N2RJ

07-21-2008, 09:11 PM

LCD displays have a limitation: Output on them only looks good at one resolution, which is fixed by the design of the display. To oversimplify, if you have an LCD that's good for SD, it's not going to do HD justice, and if you have an LCD that's good for HD, it's going to make all the artifacts in SD look worse.

Not really true, but sorta kinda plausible.

The 14 inch LCD on my desk actually displays 720p and 1080i HD feeds with better clarity than analog feeds (both are master quality feeds fed directly from master control). It is an ED set, 480p resolution.

It depends on a variety of factors, including the quality of the deinterlacer, comb filters etc on the analog side.

But it's not like we really go for quality in the SD feed anyway. People don't watch news to see pretty pictures. All they care about are the political news, car chases and missing women.

In short, an HDTV, (real 1080p) when presented with an HD signal that was originated by HD cameras will have the highest quality video.

Actually the best is really computer generated animation (a la dreamworks), where no camera is involved at all. Computer animated movies transferred directly to HD media are of very high quality, but also seem very artificial.

And, finally, the size of the display matters. If your TV is smaller than a certain size, you won't be able to detect the difference.

Display size matters if you're viewing it from a distance. Some TV sets are viewed close up and can benefit from higher resolution.

G0GQK

07-21-2008, 10:06 PM

Its true the picture on Digital TV is good, if you have a local transmitter, but unlike analogue, if the signal is not good you have pixel problems and sometimes the picture can vanish completely. I remember a posting where it was reported every time a truck went past the house, quite frequently, the TV went beserk.

What I find surprising is all this rubbish put out about stereo FM being rubbish and digital mono radio being wonderful, mono radio ! Also digital TV uses more electricity, so does the transmitter, the DAB radio's use more power and consume batteries like a dog eating its dinner. In these times of saving the planet and using more efficient, more expensive lamps in the house, 25p against 50p lamps or bulbs, on special offer, normally £1. Bit hypocritical don't you think ?

G0GQK

G4OIM

07-23-2008, 10:49 AM

Thanks for all the info guys. I think that TV in the UK goes completely digital in 2012.
Due to the relatively low cost of the set top boxes this shouldn't be a problem for most people.
I can about 80 channels of TV and Radio on digital but am only really interested in a few of them. There's lots of childrens, lifestyle and shopping channels etc which have nothing for me!
The analog picture quality was slightly better when the signal was strong but the good quality and stable picture (I have a small portable color set with a set top loop antenna which had to be constantly adjusted on analog) and the huge choice of stations on digital is quite amazing.

73 Peter

n6yg

07-23-2008, 11:06 AM

n6yg

07-23-2008, 11:52 AM

Not really true, but sorta kinda plausible.

The 14 inch LCD on my desk actually displays 720p and 1080i HD feeds with better clarity than analog feeds (both are master quality feeds fed directly from master control). It is an ED set, 480p resolution.

It depends on a variety of factors, including the quality of the deinterlacer, comb filters etc on the analog side.

But it's not like we really go for quality in the SD feed anyway. People don't watch news to see pretty pictures. All they care about are the political news, car chases and missing women.

Actually the best is really computer generated animation (a la dreamworks), where no camera is involved at all. Computer animated movies transferred directly to HD media are of very high quality, but also seem very artificial.

Display size matters if you're viewing it from a distance. Some TV sets are viewed close up and can benefit from higher resolution.

Actually the best is really computer generated animation (a la dreamworks), where no camera is involved at all. Computer animated movies transferred directly to HD media are of very high quality, but also seem very artificial.

I have to agree with the artificial part. Its funny that you mention this because I just recently received as a gift the complete collection of Warner brothers Loney Tunes and Merrie Melodies. I forgot how good those were. classic lines such as " Your built too low boy! The fast ones keep going over your head"

After watching some of these again I realized how bad most new animation really is while the story's are good and the animation is technically superior there's more to humor and comedy then technical superiority

The old Loney Tunes and Merrie Melodies were vastly superior works of art both artistically and comedicly. There is so much more to animation then technical quality. Like I said before while most new animation is technically superior its artistically inferior. .

In my opinion the original Loney Tunes and Merrie Melodies cartoonists were unprecedented in their ability to make motion funny. Not only that but the gags were original and timeless. Modern animation has little original humor. Most of the humor in modern anamation is pathetic at best or its simple spoof's, and spoofs get old and boring really quick.

Then there was the amazing musical accompaniment composed by Carl Stalling. Modern animators and directors seem to have forgotten that music is integral and important part of the finished work. The music is another character or personality in the animation that is lacking in modern anamation

Then there's the crappy computer generated animation. Almost all of the new cartoons including feature films are so sterile. The motion is simply a copy of the previous frame repositioned. No attempt at motion blur or any other artistic or creative implementations just plane old boring frame after frame of perfect computer generated images. They lack any defining character. If you have ever actually seen any original pre 1963 Warner brothers cels you would know exactly what I am talking about. The way the artists captured motion and made it funny was an absolute work of art, these cartoonists were masters and their hand crafted creativity was phenomenal.. I respect their work but am extremely jealous at the same time as I would love to have been gifted with that ability.

N2RJ

07-23-2008, 12:50 PM

I agree that the older cartoon type animation films were the best. They were artistic, and I believe a lot of them were hand drawn!

Now today we have this anime nonsense, as well as the computer graphics animation... every movie looks like a friggin' video game now, and even the video games have been spoiled by over-realistic animation. It was great when DOOM first came out but after that, I don't see the point.

KJ4DBE

07-23-2008, 01:45 PM

yes i agree w/ you about 99% and sure technologys come a long way but aren't we taking that for granted. just remember the old quote " the lord giveth, the lord taketh away" so next time you or anyone out there in the world achieves to something great you just remember what i told you so it doesn't come back to haunt you.

N2ACX

07-23-2008, 02:56 PM

K4KYV
HD Radio promises clarity and diversity. But what it really is, is a high-level corporate scam, a huge carny shill. And to top it all off, HD Radio, aka IBOC, is making a mess out of the night-time AM band.

I agree 100% but we in the USA seem to love scams, in my opinion "H D RADIO" is a humongous scam, turning an AM 455 khz IF radio into a 12mhz IF "HD" radio and then saying it costs more to manufacture, this is another big time lie from the big corporates trying to make a fast excessive profits on nonsense. One major "radio" retailer is selling the so called HD RADIOS for $299.00!
Most of the amateur operators know this but the rest of the public thinks it's another miracle of electronics LOL.
A friend compared SAT Radio and FM like that and agreed, FM is much better and still free. With the digital age most everything will cost us money, for no reason either, they still make plenty on ads on some, but not having and not ever planning to get any sat radios I am not positive.
The day and night digital signals are a PIA all noise and nights are much worse. Now we have to put up with amateur digital, noisy irritating sounds through the bands. And some are making the ham bands intolerable also with their noise and nonsense, when does it end?
This could go on for pages so I am stopping here........
73 N2ACX Gary

N0WVA

07-23-2008, 02:59 PM

K4KYV

I agree 100% but we in the USA seem to love scams, in my opinion "H D RADIO" is a humongous scam, turning an AM 455 khz IF radio into a 12mhz IF "HD" radio and then saying it costs more to manufacture, this is another big time lie from the big corporates trying to make a fast excessive profits on nonsense. One major "radio" retailer is selling the so called HD RADIOS for $299.00!
Most of the amateur operators know this but the rest of the public thinks it's another miracle of electronics LOL.
A friend compared SAT Radio and FM like that and agreed, FM is much better and still free. With the digital age most everything will cost us money, for no reason either, they still make plenty on ads on some, but not having and not ever planning to get any sat radios I am not positive.
The day and night digital signals are a PIA all noise and nights are much worse. Now we have to put up with amateur digital, noisy irritating sounds through the bands. And some are making the ham bands intolerable also with their noise and nonsense, when does it end?
This could go on for pages so I am stopping here........
73 N2ACX Gary

My thoughts exactly. We will also be paying Ibiquity and god knows who else so they can use our airwaves.

n6hle

07-23-2008, 04:03 PM

Mini-Disc is still being used in broadcast. See HERE (http://www.bswusa.com/searchresult.asp?searchType=keyword&searchValue=minidisc). I use them all the time.

Oh really... I worked at several different commercial radio stations over a period of 10 years and saw only 1 Mini-Disc machine. And it wasn't used in the brodcast portion of the operation. It was in the PD's office.

N9MOQ

07-23-2008, 05:22 PM

. .

n6hle

07-23-2008, 05:42 PM

What time period? Were they still using Cart machines?

Many stations replaced Carts with Minidisc
http://www.minidisc.org/images/denon_dnm991r.gifhttp://www.minidisc.org/images/DNM1050R.JPG

And some have gone the computer route. But even then, usually also have CD and Minidisc in the studio for when the computers go down.

From '94 where we were using CD and carts all the way up until '04 when we had completely moved over to computer automation. Never once seen a mini-disc used in broadcast.

wa4brl

07-23-2008, 06:31 PM

So we're impressed by the technology of HDTV -- how about the programming?

In the almost three weeks I've had the new set, I've been most impressed by the offerings on PBS. Especially one program about the Parks (state? national?) of Utah. Scene after scene of beautiful desert landscapes in every season with little more than classical music for the audio. Outstanding!

As for the big network series, CSI-Miami is the prettiest visual production I have seen. I'm not too impressed by the stories or the acting, but the meticulous care in set design and lighting as well as post-productiion color editing make for some gorgeous eye candy. I've never seen such on a TV series, nor on film for that matter. The aerial location shots (right term?) of the ocean, marinas, buildings, etc. are always beautiful vistas awash in highly saturated color, with spots and splashes of complimentary and contrasting colors in just the right places. Absolutely stunning!

I'm really looking forward to the olympic coverage and especially the upcoming NFL season.

So what have you guys seen that is worthy of the format?

N9MOQ

07-23-2008, 08:36 PM

From '94 where we were using CD and carts all the way up until '04 when we had completely moved over to computer automation. Never once seen a mini-disc used in broadcast.

1994 was about when many stations first started the switchover from Carts to Minidisc.

---------------------------------

http://www.usa.denon.com/1149.asp

In 1994, Denon’s Alpha Processor wins the European Audio Award for Innovation. In addition, the company introduces Mini Disc Cart Players and the first Professional Broadcast Mini Disc Cart Recorder, now the industry standard in radio stations worldwide.

---------------------------------

Broadcasting & Cable - August 22, 1994

Otari Corp is entering the professional MiniDisc market. It has introduce its Otari M-10 aimed at the radio station market. The M-10 is to replace the cart machines that many radio stations use to store and play spots and promotional broadcasts. Other companies selling similar products to the radio market include Sony and Denon.

---------------------------------

Still being used at many stations around the world.

http://www.radionorthwickpark.org/images/studio/studio.jpg
http://www.helios.nl/projecten/veronica-kink/ver_onair_02.jpg
http://www.kmryradio.com/DSCN0028.JPG