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wb6bcn
11-28-2002, 07:58 PM
THE DECIBEL

Alexander Graham Bell is the creator of this commonly used, and misunderstood scientific unit. It is a unit that has no constant, but it is easy to calculate the answer. It is just as easy to get the wrong answer. The reason is some of the functions use log(10) x 10 (value in/value out) and others use log(10) x 20 (value in/value out).

The decibel is used to give an easy to handle number to define a vast change in levels of energy. Changes in voltage or linear units like potential energy use log(10) x 20 and power or units derived using the square law use log(10) x 10. In using the db it is important to make use of the sign preceding the value when referencing certain suffixes like the dBm or dBv. I don't mind putting my finger on 1 microvolt (-60 dBv) But 1 megavolt (+60 dBv) is another question.

There are some common well defined units, but most of the time you are dealing with relative units. With the db what you need to know the minimum and maximum value so you can calculate the difference, then use the proper log function to get the result.

The dB is used to calculate change in any energy unit. Like the relationship of 1 horsepower to 1,000,000 horsepower is 60 db change in horsepower, it is a unit of power.

The db has many suffixes. Probably the most common unit is dBvu. This is the unit established by the tape recording industry to establish a standardized reference for recording of tapes. The Vu is for "Volume units" They relate to the density or concentration of magnetic energy on magnetic the tape on the recorded tape. It is the number of nano Webbers per meter on the tape. This number varies with the media. Full track, half track, stereo, four track, etc. Even between reel to reel and cassette or digital to analog are different values.

Bell most likely started with dBspl, That is sound pressure level. 0 dBspl is the threshold of hearing. Most
likely the average level, as some people have very acute levels and others can't hear a shout at 10'.

The ones we as hams may be interested in would be the following:

dBm: dB referenced to a milliwatt. The value most hams may use is 224 millivolts RMS or 290 millivolts peak. This is 0 dBm at 50 ohms.
Other common values are 274 Millivolts RMS or 387 millavolts peak (0 dBm at 75 ohms) and 1 volt peak or .775 volt RMS ( 0 dBm at 600 ohms). The higher the
ohmic value, the higher the voltage for 0 dBm.

dBw: dB referenced to a watt. 1 watt is also +30 dBm or -30 dBk. (0 dBk = 1 kilowatt).

dBv: 0 dBv is 1 volt

dBuv: This is a db referenced to a microvolt. 1 microvolt is -60 dBv.

dBi: This is a db referenced to an isotropic radiator. The isotropic radiator has no set value. It is a theoretical
perfect radiator. It radiates uniformly from any point on a sphere. It is used to show the relationship of radiant
power from one antenna and other radiant devices to others.

dB over half wave: This comparing the relative gain of an antenna compared to the gain 1/2 wave dipole.

dBs: No, this isn't for Direct Broadcast Satellite. It is dB as it relates to signal strength units. It is a reference
as to the absolute signal level at the antenna jack on the receiver. The S units start at 1 and go to 9. They origi-
nally equated to the familiar RST system used in CW contacts. With the RST system S1 is threshold of recep-
tion, and S9 is perfect copy.

Providing no QRN or QRM impaired the quality of reception the S meter indication should relate to specific
values of RF level of the distant station. Since QRM and QRN are seen the receiver as an RF signal they will
indicate on the S meter.

S unit Microvolts dBm
S-9+70 158000 -3
S-9+60 50000 -13
S-9+50 15800 -23
S-9+40 5000 -33
S-9+30 1580 -43
S-9+20 500 -53
S-9+10 158 -63
S-9 50 -73
S-8 25 -79
S-7 12.5 -85
S-6 6.25 -91
S-5 3.125 -97
S-4 1.5625 -103
S-3 .78125 -109
S-2 .390625 -115
S-1 .1953125 -121
There is no S-0

K9STH
11-28-2002, 08:16 PM
50 uV for S-9 is the most common level used for calibration of S-Meters when such an adjustment is provided for in receivers. However, there are a few of the older receivers that reference 100 uV for S-9. On some of the older Hallicrafters receivers (i.e. SX-100 series), there is an indication of 50 uV right above the S-9 point on the meter.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of new equipment does not require 50 uV for an S-9 reading. I have seen equipment that requires 1 uV or even less! Also, there is no rhyme or reason with the various S-Meter indications on a lot of this equipment. 50 uV of signal reads 40 dB over S-9 on a lot of this equipment, if not even higher. Also, the "steps" between the various S-Meter readings ( 1, 2, 3, etc.) are certainly no longer 6 dB as they were in the past. In fact, the differences are often less than 1 dB!

Manufacturers have long abandoned the "true" meaning of the S-Meter and now "point out" that their equipment receives better than another manufacturer's equipment because the S-Meter reads higher.

Thus, unless you know that the person on the other end has a receiver with a calibrated S-Meter (not that many, unfortunately, these days) it is not possible to make measurements like front-to-back on beams, the apparent differences between antennas, etc. All that they can really tell you is if one seems stronger than the other.

Glen, K9STH

wb6bcn
11-28-2002, 08:38 PM
Thanks for the feedback Glen. #I was going to put a disclaimer in reguards to the abandonment from the old standard by various manufacturers, #but then I deleted it. # I guess I will put it here:
Over the last 60 years there have been improvements in equipment design such the old standard for a receiver of good design using S-1 = about 2 microvolt for threshold has lost its original meaning.

N0PU
11-28-2002, 08:43 PM
Nice review of the db...
I needed that... refreshed the old gray matter...

Thanks guys...

Harry N0PU

GM3ZMA
11-28-2002, 10:16 PM
There are a couple of mathematical errors in Dougs posting on the dB.

0dBm (1mW on 600 Ohm) is 0.775 volts, not 1 volt as stated.

When calculating dB from a voltage ratio or power ratio, the Logarithm is always base 10. What I think Doug really means is

dB = 20 x Log10(Voltage ratio)
and
dB = 10 x Log10(Power ratio)

Jim GM3ZMA

wb6bcn
11-28-2002, 11:33 PM
No excuses: I goofed. I have corrected the errors on the log functions. I should have caught that when I proofed it. As for the 1 volt vs the .775 volt on 600 ohms we were both right. I included both peak and RMS when I edited the errors. I am used to using a transmission test set that the voltage calibrated in peak voltage, and the RF units I use are calibrated in RMS. Sorry for misleading anyone.

K9STH
11-29-2002, 12:17 AM
Along these lines, there is a very short article on both of my websites about the relationship of "power" dB versus "voltage" dB. Of course, a dB is a dB is a dB. However, many people don't understand the 20 log and 10 log figures in the calculation of the actual dB figure. That is why I put up some examples several months ago so that I didn't have to keep explaining why twice the power is 3 dB but twice the voltage is 6 dB.

You can get to the article on either http://home.attbi.com/~k9sth or http://home.attbi.com/~zcomco

There are also a number of articles on various subjects of interest to many amateur radio operators on both sites.

Glen, K9STH

KD7LDH
11-29-2002, 04:47 AM
Did you know if you write the word "OIL" upsidedown it converts to 710....


Cool init (the way people who are from [I wont say] say isn't it)


You got me confused by the first time you said Decible (spelling please) (I'll stick with Db)



-KD7LDH

K9STH
11-29-2002, 04:57 AM
For LDH:

The spelling is decibel and the abbreviation is dB. The original specifications were for the Bell as a measurement of level. However, the value turned out to be a "bit" large, so the "deci" meaning "one-tenth" became the "decibel" which means "one-tenth of a Bell".

Confusing, isn't it!

Glen, K9STH

W1RFI
11-29-2002, 01:16 PM
Of course, decibels cannot always be added and subtracted to get the right answer!

30 dBm + 30 dBm <not equal> 60 dBm!

30 dBm + 30 dBm = 33 dBm. :-)

For reference, dBm = dB relative to 1 milliwatt. 30 dBm is about 1 watt. 60 dBm would be about 1000 watts.

Calculate:

0 dBm + 0 dBm = ?

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

K0YNE
12-04-2002, 05:07 PM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Decibels in Television or cable television sort of have their own format. A dBj or a designated measurement which I believe was from Jerrold Instruments, uses "0" (Zero) dBj as 1000 Microvolts. Thus an increase of 6dB would be 2000 Microvolts or a loss of 6dB would be about 500 microvolts. Jerrold held that it took 1000 microvolts to equal a perfect picture in television reception and that 1000 microvolts could then be amplified to a larger sum. Any thing around 500 microvolts would be passed on through amplifiers which did not increase that value except for added noise. You can't improve a noisy picture. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

wb6bcn
12-05-2002, 01:17 AM
KN0YNE:
Not 100%.
Yes: #Jerrold did establish 1,000 microvolts into 75 ohms as 0 dBj. The equipment manufactures of the day didn't adopt it as a standard.
Yes: # Jerrold establish 0 dBj at the TV 75 ohm input where a TV of any quality should produce a picture with no perceptible noise in the picture. #Perfect picture or lab standard reference is 60 dB S/N.
The references for picture quality were established either in the late 40s or early 50s. #The test were performed with TV sets of that era using the responses of average people telling a lab tech when they thought the quality fell into one of six catagories. The outfit doing the test was known as TASO or Television Allocation Study Organization. #The subject would tell the lab tech when they thought the particular level of picture was meet. #The tech would then determine the S/N of the input signal. These findings would be turned over to the FCC, #and they in turn established the minimum signal accecptiable S/N a cable company could leave at a domestic drop. #
Only, as far as I know, the four highest TASO levels deal strictly with the picture quality. #Levels 5 and 6 also have to do vith audio quality. #
As per FCC rules for cable TV, the lowest level that can be delivered to a customer drop is 35 dB S/N
The fouh highest TASO levels, and what the equate to are:
Level 1: # #Excellent (no perceptible noise): # 45 dB S/N
Level 2: # #Fine (noise just perceptible ): # # ##35 dB S/N
Level 3: # #Passable (noise objectionable): # # 29 dB S/N
Level 4: # #Marginal (noise objectionable): # ##25 dB S/N
As far as absolute signal to noise, #the standards were determined by using a TV of good quality by 1950 designs. #In 1950 a good quality TV would have a noise figure of about 10 dB. #This meant that it took a signal of about 500 µV to meet this level. #0 dBj would allow for sufficient signal to have a run 50' to 75' of coax from the drop and not below the 500 µV signal level on any VHF channel.
As for as the signal that could be amplified without degrading below the 45 dB S/N, #it was possible in 1950 to get 6 dB noise figure at the high end of VHF TV and still maintain 45 dB S/N. #This means a signal of 250 µV could be amplified without adding additional noticible noise to the signal. #With the devices of today this figure is closer to 150 µV.

K0YNE
12-05-2002, 02:05 PM
Question? To WB6BCN. Using the very best low noise rf amplifiers of today, what would you expect a 150Microvolt signal to be amplified to if injected into a very low noise amplifier with 20 dB of gain? I would expect no picture quality improvement. What I said in just a very few words without elaborating on the subject is this: You cannot make an analog television picture of 150microvolts into a perfect noise free picture. You cannot get something perfect from something that is not perfect. I hope I wrote it so you understand what I'm trying to say. Thanks. K0YNE, Paul 73 http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ai4ep
12-05-2002, 02:14 PM
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif i hope all keep their spelling in check, along with correct punctuation ( sure dont want any misspelled words or bad grammer in here, the pessimists might get mad ) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif .... kd4amg http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

n0xu
12-05-2002, 02:18 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (W1RFI @ Nov. 28 2002,07:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course, decibels cannot always be added and subtracted to get the right answer! #

30 dBm + 30 dBm &lt;not equal&gt; 60 dBm!

30 dBm + 30 dBm = 33 dBm. :-)

For reference, dBm = dB relative to 1 milliwatt. 30 dBm is about 1 watt. 60 dBm would be about 1000 watts.

Calculate:

0 dBm + 0 dBm = ?

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
0 dbm + 0 dbm = 1 mW + 1 mW
# # # # # # # # # # #= 2 mW
# # # # # # # # # # #= 3 dbm

wb6bcn
12-05-2002, 03:53 PM
KN0YNE:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Question? To WB6BCN. Using the very best low noise rf amplifiers of today, what would you expect a 150Microvolt signal to be amplified to if injected into a very low noise amplifier with 20 dB of gain?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Going with the absolute number of 150 µV amplified 20 dB would get you 1,500 µV. Provided the S/N hasn't been degraded otherwise, a signal received at an antenna from a broadcast station with 150 µV will be about 47 dD S/N. An amplifier of good design today can be lower than 1 dB noise figure. If we say we have a 1 Db noise figure amplifier the output signal will be 46 dB S/N. By FCC accecpted standards, this is 1 dB above where no preceivable noise will be in the picture. Since coax is passive, and adds virtually no noise to the signal, you can amplify the signal several more times without degrading the picture noticibly.
If the S/N is at or below that level, or if you use an amplifier with a higher noise figure, then the result will be less than desirable.
If you want lab quality (Perfect Picture), that is 60 dB S/N, then you need a signal at a TV antenna, and assuming the TV has a noise figure of 8 dB or less, in excess of 3,000 µV.