What is with the OFs on this forum and their Inferiority complex? :/

[insane kangaroo]

Just reading various threads in different categories, and noticed a jealous OF making a fuss over my want and ability to build my own repeater.

Okay... well I've felt the jealousy as well when I was 17ish and remembered a specific 12 year old in college, which is just fine with me now. However, I won't tolerate jealousy of others, no matter how "wise" you are. I worked hard to where I am now, and even help others, its what I expect in return.

Don't allow the jealousy monster to garble you up, you'll just be seen in ill view in return.

I may ask for help, I do expect semi-serious answers, and at least I do ask for help instead of being an ignoramus trying to get together a repeater without trying to allow others to give their view in what makes a repeater.

So, what I'm trying to say to the OF with issues, be friendly and helpful.

[kf6nfw]

I have run into the same on this site a few times, I recall a few yrs back asking for help on sound-card packet, and was given every reason why I shouldnt or their opinions on the matter, but never once got a serious reply of help. I have also noticed that this site seems very clickish, and that if you arent part of the circle of Know it alls, then you realy dont belong in amateur radio.
To those offended by these comments should probably go back and read some of the replies to true requests of help, so much belittleing happens here, no wonder our hobby is dying, how do you expect to attract new comers when you put many of us down for not knowing the answers you do?
I expect this comment and thread will be moved or deleted before the masses see it, and thats ok, I am so glad censorship exists, cause I could only imagine what many of you would do with your time otherwise.

Yes I have learned a couple things here, but rarely do I ever get a straight answer.
Kangroo, keep tryin and ask questions, I know not all of them are knuckle heads, just some of them!:D

[k8jd]

I may be an OF but can't say I have any inferiority complex, in fact, I am quite superior to both my friends.
Otherwise why would they follow me around.
Well...maybe it's because I know how to open thier cat food cans.
K8JD, OF & cat lover

[insane kangaroo]

Well, what you do say is a bit disconcerting, and I do see how unfriendliness to new comers might chase them away.

Nobody could chase me away in any community, you're all doomed by insanity. ;)

Seriously though, I think new amateur operators are rather to come in contact with their new hobby/community awareness volunteer/career enthusiasm from someone in person who has the equipment in hand instead of coming across amateur radio operation while online.

Personally, I knew about radio operation and the seriousness of it when I was 14. I recently learned the broad set of activities which I wasn't aware before entailing the operation of amateur radio. My eyes were opened to the various activities which are not only for fun but also serve a useful purpose.

Amateur radio isn't a hobby for me, its about the information learned while operating radios, of which might be used for my career as a software engineer/IT specialist/(or if you just want to say engineer). While I do see the benefit of focusing in one field, I've experienced both focusing on one subject and many subjects at one time. I can say to me, I prefer to focus on many topics of interest at once, since I'm more productive in my ways of working and creation.

anyway, thanks. ^_^

I have run into the same on this site a few times, I recall a few yrs back asking for help on sound-card packet, and was given every reason why I shouldnt or their opinions on the matter, but never once got a serious reply of help. I have also noticed that this site seems very clickish, and that if you arent part of the circle of Know it alls, then you realy dont belong in amateur radio.
To those offended by these comments should probably go back and read some of the replies to true requests of help, so much belittleing happens here, no wonder our hobby is dying, how do you expect to attract new comers when you put many of us down for not knowing the answers you do?
I expect this comment and thread will be moved or deleted before the masses see it, and thats ok, I am so glad censorship exists, cause I could only imagine what many of you would do with your time otherwise.

Yes I have learned a couple things here, but rarely do I ever get a straight answer.
Kangroo, keep tryin and ask questions, I know not all of them are knuckle heads, just some of them!:D

[k8jd]

;)I may be an OF but can't say I have any inferiority complex, in fact, I am quite superior to both my friends.
Otherwise why would they follow me around.
Well...maybe it's because I know how to open thier cat food cans.
K8JD, OF & cat lover
XYL says I give good advice and open the cat food.;)

[insane kangaroo]

My apologies, the way I wrote the title and text made it sound like I was saying ALL OFs had an inferiority complex. :(

I meant to target the OFs like XXXX who are acting like theres a bug up their nose.

btw... dogs rule, cats drool. ;)) Says my wonderfully cute and OB malamute at home.

I may be an OF but can't say I have any inferiority complex, in fact, I am quite superior to both my friends.
Otherwise why would they follow me around.
Well...maybe it's because I know how to open thier cat food cans.
K8JD, OF & cat lover

[ab8ro]

Well, what you do say is a bit disconcerting, and I do see how unfriendliness to new comers might chase them away.

Nobody could chase me away in any community, you're all doomed by insanity. ;)


Just so you know, that's not quite how it works around here.

[KB4QAA]

We do have a small group here on the boards who can't remember what it was like to be a newcomber to ham radio and look down their noses at those who ask beginners questions.

There was a little surprise, even for me, to see two people post about setting up repeaters while being newly or unlicensed within a few days. The issue of active but unused repeaters has been well hashed, but which you couldn't know about.

Anyway, welcome to ham radio. Hams are about the friendliest people you can meet, so don't let a few curmudgeons get you down.

73, Bill

[G0GQK]

Well, you certainly have a way with words, and your natural charm will persuade even the most saintly among the QRZ fraternity that they have an attitude problem. I have to admit that I am an old fart with an excess of bad habits, BO, smelly feet and bad breath but I am kind to animals, and I never go the ham fests and break wind in the beer tent.

G0GQK

[kf6rdn]

...
Anyway, welcome to ham radio. Hams are about the friendliest people you can meet, so don't let a few curmudgeons get you down.

73, Bill



As long as you meet them, on the air or in person they are..

I have seen people lambasted and whatnot for not entirely unreasonable "noob" questions, or told to go back to CB.
Not sure why someone can't:

1) Answer a simple question.
2) Shut up if you dont have a helpful response.

PS - I don't include the answers of "You shouldn't do that" in the not helpful category, even though sometimes the askers don't feel like that is helpful.

Example:

Can I modify my radio to put out more power.


A'well That's just me I guess..

[WA6MHZ]

On the issue of repeaters, many if not most of the repeaters here in Southern Cal are private, for small cliques only. Large clubs set up open ones but for each band, there are only a handfull as compared to the vast number of closed ones. And most of the closed ones are quiet most of the time. They only come to life to ID, and occupy the frequency. They are there to HOLD the frequency, so no one else can have it. Kind of like the Monopoly game, the one with the most Repeaters wins! Consequently, some individuals own 10 or 20 repeaters, most which never hear a QSO on them. But if you try to get a repeater pair, you are told there are NONE available and there is a long long waiting list for any that should become available, though not in this lifetime. This is true on 2, 222 and 450 Mhz. Some freqs are probably available on 900 mhz, mostly because there is no ham rigs that run on it (only converted commercial rigs). Even 1296 is a busy band with little or no freqs available!!!
Repeater owners here are very jealous of their frequencies, and no one better squeak on their private frequencies. So no QSOs have occurred on the said frequency in a month, suddenly someone comes on it. They will be ORDERED OFF THE FREQUENCY, trespassers!!! That's the way it is in Southern California!!! No wonder newcomers are scared or chased away!!!

[ab8ro]

The "kangraroo" needs to take some of his own advice.

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=168298

There's a possibility here that someone is trolling.

[ab0wr]

I've read several threads about coordinating committees needing to "un-coordinate" unused or paper repeaters.

I would offer an alternative.

Tell all repeater owners that if a recording is submitted to the coordinating committee showing a repeater has less than X hours of usage in a week/month that the frequency will be marked as "shared" and the repeater will have to be equipped to use a CTCSS tone.

A second repeater using a different CTCSS tone will then be assigned to use the same frequency.

If subsequent recordings show that the frequency usage is still inconsequential, additional repeaters can be assigned to the frequency until the usage on the frequency reaches a level acceptable to the coordinating committee.

I realize this will require the coordinating committees to stand up and show some *real* leadership. It is a procedure, however, that would allow some real increase in spectrum efficiency in the repeater bands. It will put some *real* pressure on those repeater owners who only have the frequency reserved as an "ego building" exercise.

tim a0bwr

[ai4ep]

....and just what IS " kangaroo s " FCC callsign ?

[K4MSM]

....and just what IS " kangaroo s " FCC callsign ?


He's still waiting on it.

;)

[kb3laz]

....and just what IS " kangaroo s " FCC callsign ?

Are we back on this kick?

[W4INF]

When I got started in the hobby, the OF type kinda got on my nerves too, here on the Zed.

Then I realized how little a man I was in this hobby, they had far more knowledge and experience than I.

Have patience grasshopper, you too will either realize this soon, or continue to incorrectly evaluate your elders/superiors.

The internal conflict you feel comes from pride. Put the pride on a shelf, humble yourself a bit, and you will have a good ride here with lots of help!

Andrew

[ab8ro]

I've read several threads about coordinating committees needing to "un-coordinate" unused or paper repeaters.

I would offer an alternative.

Tell all repeater owners that if a recording is submitted to the coordinating committee showing a repeater has less than X hours of usage in a week/month that the frequency will be marked as "shared" and the repeater will have to be equipped to use a CTCSS tone.

A second repeater using a different CTCSS tone will then be assigned to use the same frequency.

If subsequent recordings show that the frequency usage is still inconsequential, additional repeaters can be assigned to the frequency until the usage on the frequency reaches a level acceptable to the coordinating committee.

I realize this will require the coordinating committees to stand up and show some *real* leadership. It is a procedure, however, that would allow some real increase in spectrum efficiency in the repeater bands. It will put some *real* pressure on those repeater owners who only have the frequency reserved as an "ego building" exercise.

tim a0bwr

In my opinion coordination should only be granted to open repeaters. Any closed repeater should have to use uncoordinated frequencies.

[ab8ro]

When I got started in the hobby, the OF type kinda got on my nerves too, here on the Zed.

Then I realized how little a man I was in this hobby, they had far more knowledge and experience than I.

Have patience grasshopper, you too will either realize this soon, or continue to incorrectly evaluate your elders/superiors.

The internal conflict you feel comes from pride. Put the pride on a shelf, humble yourself a bit, and you will have a good ride here with lots of help!

Andrew

Andrew,

That just feeds the arrogance. Frankly, there are plenty of helpful folks on here with useful knowledge and there are just as many, if not more, OFs who never bothered to do anything other than pass their test.

Just being an old ham doesn't make you wise and experienced. You might have some of both, then again, you might just be old.

[ky5u]

I like how some folks get their butt kicked under a call sign and all of a sudden we have a new "alias" supporting them. ROFLMAO!! Just regard this as friendly and helpful.

[KC9JIQ]

On the issue of repeaters, many if not most of the repeaters here in Southern Cal are private, for small cliques only. Large clubs set up open ones but for each band, there are only a handfull as compared to the vast number of closed ones. And most of the closed ones are quiet most of the time. They only come to life to ID, and occupy the frequency. They are there to HOLD the frequency, so no one else can have it. Kind of like the Monopoly game, the one with the most Repeaters wins! Consequently, some individuals own 10 or 20 repeaters, most which never hear a QSO on them. But if you try to get a repeater pair, you are told there are NONE available and there is a long long waiting list for any that should become available, though not in this lifetime. This is true on 2, 222 and 450 Mhz. Some freqs are probably available on 900 mhz, mostly because there is no ham rigs that run on it (only converted commercial rigs). Even 1296 is a busy band with little or no freqs available!!!
Repeater owners here are very jealous of their frequencies, and no one better squeak on their private frequencies. So no QSOs have occurred on the said frequency in a month, suddenly someone comes on it. They will be ORDERED OFF THE FREQUENCY, trespassers!!! That's the way it is in Southern California!!! No wonder newcomers are scared or chased away!!!

So um suck up to the repeater owner and use their equipment!!

You just might get a "special" unjammable input.;) BTW there are hams everywhere in So. California, of course there is congestion.

WE STILL NEED CORDINATED PRIVATE REPEATERS! How can I justify puting THOUSANDS OF MY DOLLARS into a repeater and let some Jack AHzz use my equipment that "I" paid for out of "my" pocket?

It would be counter productive.

[ab8ro]

WE STILL NEED CORDINATED PRIVATE REPEATERS! How can I justify puting THOUSANDS OF MY DOLLARS into a repeater and let some Jack AHzz use my equipment that "I" paid for out of "my" pocket?

It would be counter productive.

I'm assuming that you're turning up the sarcasm?

[ai4ep]

interesting to read........

[AC0FP]

I like how some folks get their butt kicked under a call sign and all of a sudden we have a new "alias" supporting them. ROFLMAO!! Just regard this as friendly and helpful.

Oh no, say it isn't so that someone could sink so low as to manufacture an alias on QRZ!:mad:;)

[K9STH]

"Kangaroo":

Although there are a few persons who post here on QRZ.com that seem to be "anti-newcomers" the vast majority of those who post are quite willing to help the newcomer. However, just how the newcomer presents his/her questions and just how they accept the answers will determine how that person is "received" by the group.

If the newcomer has a "chip on his/her shoulder" then that person is going to get a really bad time on the site. If the newcomer presents his/her questions in a logical manner and if the newcomer doesn't "demand" answers then they generally will be well accepted.

Your desire to establish a repeater for your area of residence which has no repeaters is, at least on the surface, a noble endeavor. However, you need to take a long, hard, look at the subject. First of all, it "seems" like virtually every newly licensed amateur radio operator wants his/her own repeater. But, establishing and maintaining a repeater requires a serious commitment in both time and finances. Frankly, the two happiest days in a repeater owner's life are the day it goes on the air and the day the owner gets rid of the repeater. Every other day ranges from almost bearable to downright horrendous. The users expect, well, demand, "perfect" operation and coverage by the repeater. Let it "burp" and your telephone is going to ring and it doesn't matter what time of day or night. Certain individuals are going to be worse than others and those individuals that demand the most are the same people who will not even think of offering technical or financial support. But, those people are going to gripe the loudest with every little "burp" in the system.

There are several persons on this site who have owned and/or maintained amateur radio repeaters and virtually every one (actually probably every one) of those persons are going to say the same thing. Yes, I have owned both amateur radio repeaters and commercial two-way radio repeaters. Frankly, the commercial users almost never complain about anything. But, those who use your amateur radio repeater are going to be a constant source of headaches.

As for the relatively simple questions asked by many newcomers today can be directly traced to the licensing procedures now in place. In the "goode olde dayes" virtually every newcomer had experience as a shortwave listener and also had at least some knowledge of basic radio theory. Today the entire question pool is published and way too many newcomers memorize the question pool and obtain a license without really learning much of anything. As such, the questions that they ask today are things that every newly licensed amateur radio operator already knew when they obtained their license "way back when".

There are times that I have to "bite my fingertips" (since we are communicating through the written word and not verbally I cannot "bite my tongue") when I answer a particular question. Frankly, I have to remember that the average newcomer of today just doesn't have the knowledge and experience that was common when I got my license back in the first half of 1959. Unfortunately, there are some "olde tymers" who just do not have the patience to answer the very basic questions. However, there are probably just as many, if not more, of those persons who have not been licensed "that long" who have even less patience. Now, with the vanity licensing program, you cannot tell from a person's call sign how long he/she has been licensed. There are persons who have been licensed just a few days that have received calls (by the vanity program) that were first issued before World War II. Therefore, you have no idea as to how long a person has been licensed just by his/her call.

Anyway, since this is the Internet and not "on the air", it is best to develop a "thick skin" and ignore those persons who are critical of you. It will not take very long before you will learn those people that are going to be helpful and those person who are not.

Glen, K9STH

[wa9cwx]

Glen, NICELY stated, as usual.

My only other comment is in relation to my last discussion with the Beloit repeater owner about 4 months ago. (The Beloit repeater was permanantly shut down at that time after some 35 years of very excellent service).

He was simply tired of all the stresses involved in running the system.

The physical location and set up was fine, not a 'remote' type set up out in the boonies, but the technical, ETC. problems were just too much to deal with.

He and his father had managed the system all those years, and I have to believe it was a basicly thankless job. A LOT of work, dedication and sweat, and not much return, at least in overt terms.

I sure hope it did give them pride of operation though, since they did an outstanding job the whole time, and provided the area with an excellent system.

Frank

[KC2STS]

Very well put, Glen, and I agree with you on the call signs. I wish that they didn't have the vanity stuff, or at least least not give out the old signs. I liked it when I could recognize an "old ham" (not age wise) by his/her sign.
73,
Joe

[k8wpj]

My apologies, the way I wrote the title and text made it sound like I was saying ALL OFs had an inferiority complex. :(

I meant to target the OFs like K9ZMD who are acting like theres a bug up their nose.

btw... dogs rule, cats drool. ;)) Says my wonderfully cute and OB malamute at home.


What you'll notice about the 'Zed after you hang out here for a while is that the 'Zed is like a very loud radio station in the middle of nowhere, with several distinctly different, but very loud and boisterious on air personalities...

meaning this-

As long as you are close enough to hear the music and the jocks know they have you listening they will do anything and everything to keep you involved... Someone else always wants to debate or defend or defile something and with say or do something specifically to agitate a reply...

Once that happens it's off to the races as one after another jumps into the threads... Sooner or later it always winds up in a flamefest or someone whining to the mods over the 'mistreatment' they've suffered at the hands of the meanies that flamed them.

Once that happens, all bets are off kids... Uncle Fred hates it when you wake him up... So someone winds up censored or banned... The point of my comparision is this... That radio station in the middle of nowhere with the loud speakers can only be heard over a certain distance, and the farther away from it you get, the more you realize how limited their reach is.

Within that immediate area, whoa boy they really put out a strong signal, but, outside that, it's not really that big a deal.

Fred even went so far as to call me 'sanctimonious' today...

I haven't stopped laughing since. Ordinarily I would have been offended but, for some reason when Fred said it, I couldn't help but laugh about it.

That's just the 'Zed way i guess. I'll probably be censored or reprimanded over this post too.

Oh well... I am too old for taking stuff that seriously anymore, Maybe someday the 'Zed will too.

Take care,

Matt

[K7JEM]

There are several persons on this site who have owned and/or maintained amateur radio repeaters and virtually every one (actually probably every one) of those persons are going to say the same thing. Yes, I have owned both amateur radio repeaters and commercial two-way radio repeaters. Frankly, the commercial users almost never complain about anything. But, those who use your amateur radio repeater are going to be a constant source of headaches.


I will disagree. I have been a repeater owner for over 30 years, and have never experienced such bad problems as many here allude to. There are times when they can be a headache, but overall are fun to build and maintain. It's like any other part of HR, it takes some time and effort, yet has it's rewards and disappointments. I have maintained stand alone repeaters and large linked systems, and they all have challenges.

If you don't want challenges and learning experiences, don't get a repeater. Building and maintaining a repeater is a lot like learning code or learning to climb a tower. It's not for everyone, and some will enjoy it more than others.

Don't let the naysayers talk you out of anything you want to do in ham radio. Their experience will not necessarily be the same as yours.

Joe

[ab0wr]

In my opinion coordination should only be granted to open repeaters. Any closed repeater should have to use uncoordinated frequencies.

Not a bad idea. Any bets on whether such a guideline will ever be adopted?

tim ab0wr

[ai4ep]

...bad idea. Not complicated enough.

[W0UZR]

When I got started in the hobby, the OF type kinda got on my nerves too, here on the Zed.

Then I realized how little a man I was in this hobby, they had far more knowledge and experience than I.

Have patience grasshopper, you too will either realize this soon, or continue to incorrectly evaluate your elders/superiors.

The internal conflict you feel comes from pride. Put the pride on a shelf, humble yourself a bit, and you will have a good ride here with lots of help!

Andrew

Even though I can get radios tuned up, and running again, I don't know all the technical terms for everything and that, and that doesn't mean I'm real smart or know it all when it comes to the "Nuts and Bolts" of electronics.

There are people that can run circles around me on the technical aspect of electronics. I mean "Run Circles!!" And there are a few right here on this site. They have more knowledge in their little finger than I have in my whole body.

So, I learned that it is best that I keep my mouth shut, open some books and my ears. And that is what a Wise Old Fart will do. BTW, I'm an Old Fart, and I don't know it all. And I don't belong to a clique. Just ignore people that are the smart-T-elics, and just enjoy learning what you can. That's all a guy can do. Some people are born gifted with wonderful knowledge, and others just know enough to be dangerous.......

[ab8ro]

Not a bad idea. Any bets on whether such a guideline will ever be adopted?

tim ab0wr

Never, but it seems to me to be more in the spirit of ham radio. Without it a pair of frequencies essentially belongs to someone. There is nothing preventing the coordinated repeater from not allowing anyone other than friends and family on a particular frequency. I think that it's a real problem and I also think that repeaters have lost much of their usefulness and should, in a sense, be demoted in importance.

[KB9YCO]

I'm not sure what the specific question was, or if it was posted in this forum. If it was posted in this forum then my advice would be to use the "Questions & Answers" forum which is more directly that as opposed to "Talk & Opinions" which is a lot of that. I didn't read through the whole thread here, and honestly didn't even check "Questions & Answers", but every time I've read that forum it seemed pretty direct. Just a thought, my apologies if you posted it there or this has already been addressed. Best of luck, repeaters are a lot of fun, but also a lot of work.

[ka0gkt]

Dear Maniac Marsupial,

A repeater is a wonderous device. It can simultaneously be a huge money-pit and a tremendous pain in the tail...It'll bite you in the pouch and the posterior at the same time.

In general, repeaters should be a collective investment between as many invsetors as can peacably assemble. In this way, the divided pain is much less than the pleasure derived through ownership.

In many areas of the country, there are lirterally hundreds (if not thousands) of repeaters which go under or unutilized. I can count on one hand the number of repeaters accessable from my QTH upon which I can have a reasonable expectation of having someone answer my call at any given time of the day.

If you have a group of friends with whom you would like to get together, but you are too far apart for reliable simplex communications and for whatever reason you either can't or won't join a club and use the club machine, I suppose that a repeater might be a good bet, but it might be more affordable to put up an antenna with some gain and still work each other on a simplex frequency. Back in the '80s, I had a regular schedule with thre or four other amateurs in a city about 55-miles away airline. I had a pair of Cushcraft 13B2 yagis which gave me around 17 dBi gain and an Icom 25A. The Yagis were about twenty feet over the top of the second highest hill in a 20-mile area. My friends each had either the same cushcraft antenna or the nearest HyGain equiv.

My suggsestion is that you get some operating experience before you build a repeater. Talk to some people who own one and you may find that owning a repeater is like owning a 1956 Austin Healey 100-6. They can be really neat to own and fun to use, but you may end up spending all of your free time and spare cash keeping the sucker up!

OBTW, I've never owned a repeater, but have known many who have...the Austin Healey??? Lets just say that a torque wrench is part of the standard tool kit you carry in the trunk...the little sports car was a chick magnet, but part of the sports is the sport of keeping the beastie running. That little BRG roadster was faster than the '66 Shelby Mustang I owned a few years later, but the Shelby didn't require the valve lash adjusted at each oil change! (And was just as big of a chick magnet!)

[kb3laz]

Building a repeater may be complex but buying one is simple.:p

I have done neither because we have many at our disposal in my area.
Owning a repeater is a lot of responsibility and work of course.
I mainly use an open repeater with no club affiliations, we have a rather large group and just being part of the group comes with responsibility. Helping out by antenna installations, maintenance, financial investments, and things like running the net. A lot of work (and I mean a lot) went into the local systems. We have a 2m, 2m backup, 6m, 70cm, 220mhz, and multiple receive sites.

If I ever decide to put up a repeater it would be 10m, we have one in the area but its not been used an about a decade and is really off frequency.

Good luck OM.

73 de kb3laz

[ai4ep]

(yawn ) good morning.

Any earth shaking posts been made in my absense ?

Any one actually DO any thing substancial ?

[nm5tf]

HI Steve...

when I got out of the Air Force in '66 I purchased an Austin Healy 3000 MKII roadster...
teh BJ7 version with the roll-up windows instead of side curtains....it had 3 SU carbs & was fast enuff to race teh boyz with their 'vettes...and beat them until they hit 4th gear....

chick magnet for sure!!!

paid something like $3K for it....now they go for 30-40 Kilobucks....wish I still had mine....

oh well...live & learn.....

[K9STH]

GKT and OML:

Obviously, you know how to tell if someone owns a British automobile. You look for oil spots in the driveway!

Over the years my family has owned 3 different British automobiles. In college I had a Triumph 10 "estate wagon" and when my eldest daughter was in high school and college she first had an MGB and then a Triumph TR-6. We had an insurance agent who gave my daughter a "place mat" designed for British car owners that had "tips" and instructions. One of the instructions went as follows:

Place mat under automobile at night. Remove in morning. If the mat is covered with oil it is safe to drive the vehicle. If the mat is clean do NOT start the vehicle because the oil "sump" is empty!

One has not "lived" until they have tried to adjust those SU carbs.

Glen, K9STH

[n8yx]

One has not "lived" until they have tried to adjust those SU carbs.

...or to get the darned things off their flanged manifolds come rebuild time... :mad:

[ab9lz]

So, what I'm trying to say to the OF with issues, be friendly and helpful.

So, I read through the entire thread and didn't see any hint of what you are complaining about. A few warnings of "are you sure you know what you are getting into", which is typical. Perhaps you are being a bit sensitive.

73 m/4

[ai4ep]

troll bait, just like the MIAMI repeater thread.

[wr5aw]

troll bait, just like the MIAMI repeater thread.
There's yer troll bate right there. ^^^

[N0WVA]

You guys are nuts. Roo wants to put up a repeater, big deal. Like its some kind of a crime to be having such thoughts.

Newcomers shouldnt have to worry about what they ask and be walking on tippy-toes around these old farts. Screw that. If you dont want to discuss politely, then shut the heck up switch on the rig and talk about your last hospital visit or something just as useless.

[WA6MHZ]

".......Yessssum Jack! Last month Ethel went in to get her Gall Bladder changed and they put in a liver instead, so now she needs to back in for Rework! Then Aunt Mabel thought she had the Gout but it was just Gangrene from the time she kicked the Ally Gator and it bit back. She thought it would get better but after 3 months it didn't. So they are going to replace her foot with one of them there mechanical ones. So next time she kicks that Gator all he will get is some WOOD to chew on. OH my gosh, look at the time!!! Yeppers, Jeb and the boys down at the Pub are waiting for me to get down there to the Pee Knuckle game, but they won't wait for me cause I owe them $13 from yesterday and they know I spent my last $5 on a glass of Milwaukees Best Pabst Blue Ribbon.
OH yes, Now I remember, When Ethel and me were over at Patsy and Jerrimiahs house last week, we won the Bridge game with 2 hearts and a Trump.
SO we will see ya down the old log, Jack. Until tommooooorow, Seventy Turds!"

[ai3v]

Asking about how to build a repeater before you have even a tech license, is like trying to build your own airplane before you take a flying lesson.

Rege

[wr5aw]

Unless you're an A&P of course. :cool:

[WA6MHZ]

Asking about how to build a repeater before you have even a tech license, is like trying to build your own airplane before you take a flying lesson.

Rege

Its also like building a boat in your basement when you live near no water at all. Another thing overlooked is how to get it OUT of your basement. But you have a boat!

[k0cmh]

I built a 10 meter QRP transmitter while I was waiting for my first license to show up. Man, am I glad I didn't ask any questions about that here.:eek:

[N0WVA]

Asking about how to build a repeater before you have even a tech license, is like trying to build your own airplane before you take a flying lesson.

Rege I ordered a Heathkit HW99 before I had my license. They were sold out at the time, so mom got her check back.

I even studied up and read about building qrp rigs, even built one, transmitter and all.

I had no trouble with the theory on the exams, because I already knew most all of the novice thru general material before I even bought a study manual.

I had more fun early on just learning all about radios and how they work, especially hands on experience.

I was even dreaming about building an all homebrew SSB station long before I had my license! Such a crime!

[ab8ro]

I ordered a Heathkit HW99 before I had my license. They were sold out at the time, so mom got her check back.

I even studied up and read about building qrp rigs, even built one, transmitter and all.

I had no trouble with the theory on the exams, because I already knew most all of the novice thru general material before I even bought a study manual.

I had more fun early on just learning all about radios and how they work, especially hands on experience.

I was even dreaming about building an all homebrew SSB station long before I had my license! Such a crime!


Yeah, I think a lot of us were in a similar boat. Heck I was given an HW-7 before my license came (the first time) and a local ham helped me put together a 35 watt novice transmitter. I think that's quite a bit different from "I've already modified my transmitter." I understand youthful curiosity but that doesn't mean that I'm not irritated when it is obviously not accompanied by some reading on one's own time.

More to the point, this guy's a troll. I suggest that the QRZ moderators simply delete any thread that doesn't belong in questions that isn't posted by a ham. In a way, moving it is giving the troll -or- noob, whichever they happen to be, more power than they should have. If they are a troll then the moderators are helping them to troll. If they aren't then they can just wait until they obtain a license to render their opinion.

It's so easy to get a license today that there's just no excuse unless you are broke and live in the boonies. You should be able to get your license in a week.

[W5HTW]

HI Steve...

when I got out of the Air Force in '66 I purchased an Austin Healy 3000 MKII roadster...
teh BJ7 version with the roll-up windows instead of side curtains....it had 3 SU carbs & was fast enuff to race teh boyz with their 'vettes...and beat them until they hit 4th gear....

chick magnet for sure!!!

paid something like $3K for it....now they go for 30-40 Kilobucks....wish I still had mine....

oh well...live & learn.....

I had two of them. Not the 3000, though, but the precedessor, the A-H 100-6. One of them was the dual carb, one of them the tri-carb. Yes, very fast, but you had to carry carb adjusting tools with you everywhere.

I got out of A_Hs, because the wheels kept falling off. Those splined hubs. If they were a bit worn (as both mine were) when you applied brakes, the hub stopped - the wheel did not. Front wheel that is. That meant it unscrewed the spinner cap after a few hard stops. I found that out when I had drive at 115 miles an hour on US301, and had heard strange noises when I tapped the brakes. I pulled into a shopping center, slowed to a careful stop, and the right front wheel kept going. I thought back to the 115 mph brake applications Decided I could not depend upon a charged life any more.

Both of mine were 1958 models, one of them pretty rough on the body but ran quite nicely. The other was in much better condition, but a long ways from collector quality. Both were red and white. Either one would pin the speedometer against the peg at 120 mph. And I loved the electric overdrive.

Alas, wheels falling off wasn't fun. I bought a Ford station wagon and a 1957 MGA coupe! Traded the dirty 100-6 for a Triumph TR4. Let someone else replace wheels.

Always wanted a 3000MKIII but even back then there were out of my funds class. Never got one. After the TR4 I gave up on sports cars. Never had another one. That was in 1976.

Good lady friend had a Bugeye. I couldn't fit into it! Well, maybe with a shoe horn and a can opener.

Ed

[W5HTW]

The sad thing about ham radio is people come here, to QRZ, for questions, when they should be in a club, being social, asking those questions in person.

To me, that is one of the major downfalls of amateur radio.

Ed

[kb3laz]

The sad thing about ham radio is people come here, to QRZ, for questions, when they should be in a club, being social, asking those questions in person.

To me, that is one of the major downfalls of amateur radio.

Ed

A club, whats that?
Why would I want to be a socialist?:p
If your amateur radio falls down it will sadly be broken!:(

[wa9cwx]

Asking about how to build a repeater before you have even a tech license, is like trying to build your own airplane before you take a flying lesson.

Rege

Again, this addresses the issue of entry into the hobby with a minimum of effort. The whole thing IS seen as simple, and so these questions don't even SEEM out of place to them.

The individual wanting to build the system MAY be an electronic genius, but clearly the only 'negative' comments (in the original thread) were from EXPERIENCED hams passing on a simple warning, that it MAY BE a bit more of a task than you first expect.......A simple, yet highly appropriate response.

And, what happens, people get UPSET, sarcastic about how the 'newcomer' is being discouraged (!) ( He ISN'T a 'Newcomer", HE ISN'T EVEN LICENSED at the lowest level yet.....) ...Well, that IS the proper role of an experienced person, not JUST to encourage, but to pass on EXPERIENCES AND OPINIONS.

AND, the role of a 'newbe', at least one who wishes to be respected and eventually actually LEARN something, is to take in ALL the opinions, sort them out, and try to grow.

Shutting up until you actually KNOW SOMETHING is pretty basic, and USED to be taught in school.

ONE of the causes of the perceived "OF' attitude IS questions like this.

It IS difficult to comprehend an advanced system like a repeater being a serious concern to someone who doesn't even hold the lowest license yet, in an era where that license has basicly minimal requirements, and to be actually UPSET when experienced hams give some responses that are not exactly IN LINE with a pre-determined point of view.

The whole thing seems silly, but it IS REAL, just like the 'Novice' type questions we see here, that we all remember asking when we WERE Novices, and that would, seriously, have had us calling an ambulance for anyone who held an Extra if THEY asked them.

I have read all the responses to Mr Kangaroo, I find NONE of them off the mark, some encourage him, several pass on the warning it may be like buying a boat, some outright think it is silly, some think it is a sign of budding genius.
There were NO, NO personal attacks, against him or even his topic, or, (God bless these times), his NAME, Mr Kangaroo.......

Frank

[AG3Y]

Thanks, Frank, well said ! ! !

[AC0H]

It IS difficult to comprehend an advanced system like a repeater being a serious concern to someone who doesn't even hold the lowest license yet, in an era where that license has basicly minimal requirements, and to be actually UPSET when experienced hams give some responses that are not exactly IN LINE with a pre-determined point of view.

Aye, and there's the rub.

"Agree with me, no matter how ill conceived the notion, and your a wise old fart, disagree or offer constructive criticism and your a jack booted thug intent on keeping me down."

The one thing amateur radio doesn't NEED anywhere is more repeaters. My home town of 25K and about 95 Hams has no less than 8 VHF/UHF repeaters. One wide coverage and one short range 2 meter machine, one wide coverage 70cm machine. The rest are running on ringo rangers up 20 feet and are for all intents and purposes private.

The three club owned and operated machines go unused unless there's a Skywarn net.

[ab9lz]

Thanks, Frank, well said ! ! !

No, not well said. Folks coming into this hobby may come from disciplines that may indeed make them more qualified to be modern hams than the traditional tube wrigglers from days past. Kudos to Steve (WIK) for helping the guy out, with both technical answers, and questions of practicality. Who knows, Homer Ak might end up with a much needed new repeater, certainly that fellow (if successful) will have contributed more to the hobby than the average OF.

73 m/4

[K7JEM]

No, not well said. Folks coming into this hobby may come from disciplines that may indeed make them more qualified to be modern hams than the traditional tube wrigglers from days past. Kudos to Steve (WIK) for helping the guy out, with both technical answers, and questions of practicality. Who knows, Homer Ak might end up with a much needed new repeater, certainly that fellow (if successful) will have contributed more to the hobby than the average OF.

73 m/4

Thank you.

This thread tells me that there are a lot of people out there who have no idea about a repeater. They think it is some sort of black magic or rocket science.

In reality, a repeater is a very simple device that is easy to explain and understand. The only really difficult part of a repeater is understanding "duplex" and what needs to be done to make it work. That can be anything from relatively easy to very difficult, just like many things in HR, like getting an HF station to work properly, or putting up an effective antenna.

Getting a repeater to work may consist of pulling things from a box, hooking them together, putting up an antenna, and watching it work. Not much different than putting up any other HR station.

It amazes me that people are going to tell someone that they don't need a repeater, yet those people may live thousands of miles away and have no concept of the local situation. How can anyone recommend against a repeater, if it is something that the ham is willing to do, and invest in?

Joe

[KE5TND]

It amazes me that people are going to tell someone that they don't need a repeater, yet those people may live thousands of miles away and have no concept of the local situation. How can anyone recommend against a repeater, if it is something that the ham is willing to do, and invest in?

Joe

or how can someone bash someone else for simply asking for advice before diving heads first into the project? I have no clue but that's exactly what is going on here, I'm one of the people that has recently considered such a project and asked for advice on here. Now I see multiple threads bashing people who have done nothing but ask for advice. I'm sick of it, those people looking down their noses at others while hiding behind a keyboard make me sick and I doubt they would act that way in person.

[K5FH]

Obviously, you know how to tell if someone owns a British automobile. You look for oil spots in the driveway!

<snip>

Place mat under automobile at night. Remove in morning. If the mat is covered with oil it is safe to drive the vehicle. If the mat is clean do NOT start the vehicle because the oil "sump" is empty!

One has not "lived" until they have tried to adjust those SU carbs.

Yep...been there, done that, etc. I had a 1969 Austin American (a Morris Minor with left-hand drive).

Too much to tell here, so I'll suffice it to say that owning this thing was an experience I'll never forget. Kind of like how one never forgets their first root canal.

Q: Why did British Leyland abandon plans to get into the computer business?

A: They couldn't figure out how to make the prototypes leak oil.

SU carburetors were part of the international communist conspiracy :p.

[N4AUD]

Why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refridgerators. :)

[wa9cwx]

Joe, go to it, git 'em all set up with that simple 'repeater install kit'...:D

And as for those of you that take serious offense at others opinions, opinions that add up to hundreds of collective years of practical operating, maybe you all need to do the obvious, DON'T ASK.

AS for others, people who have minds that still seem to work with a balanced combination of self worth / practical appraisal of self ability / desire to listen to ALL inputs and then ADD your own unique take on things, to do your OWN ACTIVITIES, I applaude you.

People who do that seldom take offense at ANYTHING except a direct insult, seldom get discouraged at anything except overwhelming odds, and even THEN draw on personal strength for their OWN abilities and often OVERCOME those odds....

The idea that every 'idea' needs some kind of encouragment by everyone or people are headed for failure is a joke.
The whole 'No kid left behind' scene is just not even sane, let alone adults needing encouragment for every whim, and being discouraged by every dissenting opinion.

Someone who doesn't have a ticket yet wants to build a repeater, GO FOR IT !
You will find people to HELP you, people to encourage you, people to do ANY variation on any theme you want.

But....ASK for opinions on a site populated by widely experienced people, and you will get OPINIONS from all angles.

TAKE each and every opinion deadly serious, get worked up over it, stop your life out of discouragement because someone thinks your ideas are stupid, and you will never get anywhere.

ATTACK people on the site, after ASKING for opinions, and you simply show that you have not gotten passed the school kid mentality of 'No kid left behind' yet.


Bottom line, IF someone does not have the wisdom yet to USE various opinions in a self-judgment call system, save yourself the embarrasment and don't ask.

Otherwise, the VARIOUS opinions from experienced people are a GREAT source of information, new ideas, insperation, insight and a whole variety of options.

[KA4DPO]

Joe, go to it, git 'em all set up with that simple 'repeater install kit'...:D




Bottom line, IF someone does not have the wisdom yet to USE various opinions in a self-judgment call system, save yourself the embarrasment and don't ask.
Otherwise, the VARIOUS opinions from experienced people are a GREAT source of information, new ideas, insperation, insight and a whole variety of options.

Unless you happen to be mental in which case you view constructive though and advice as personal attacks. We sure get our share of nut cases on here..:rolleyes:

[wa9cwx]

Unless you happen to be mental in which case you view constructive though and advice as personal attacks. We sure get our share of nut cases on here..:rolleyes:

My comments to 'Joe' were that one line ribbing! (in FUN) NOT the WHOLE POST !!! :)

[w6vps]

You made a posting and got answers you didn't want to read because they didn't make you feel wanted, warm and fuzzy, or whatever.
Get over it.

If you're gonna whine and cry every time folks on an open forum disagree with what you say and are blunt in the way they present their views you have a lot of miserable times ahead of you and you will be bringing them on yourself.

By the way, your use of OF for Old Fart in a pejorative sense is insulting.

You want to insult people and then expect a friendly response?
Not where I come from pal!
Paul / W6VPS

[wa9cwx]

You made a posting and got answers you didn't want to read because they didn't make you feel wanted, warm and fuzzy, or whatever.
Get over it.

If you're gonna whine and cry every time folks on an open forum disagree with what you say and are blunt in the way they present their views you have a lot of miserable times ahead of you and you will be bringing them on yourself.

By the way, your use of OF for Old Fart in a pejorative sense is insulting.

You want to insult people and then expect a friendly response?
Not where I come from pal!
Paul / W6VPS


Uh, Paul, I bow to you, you said what I did, but did a better job, with fewer words....:D

[k8jd]

[QUOTE=K9STH;1277955]"

There are several persons on this site who have owned and/or maintained amateur radio repeaters and virtually every one (actually probably every one) of those persons are going to say the same thing. Yes, I have owned both amateur radio repeaters and commercial two-way radio repeaters. Frankly, the commercial users almost never complain about anything. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I can't count how many times My boss sent me to a trunked system site because a whiney customer complained he got a busy signal on the system, usually NTF and I swept up old cigarette butts other techs dropped on the floor and left.:(

[WA9SVD]

Uh, Paul, I bow to you, you said what I did, but did a better job, with fewer words....:D

I'd add it's not a matter rof "Inferiority Complex."

It's just that SOME of the NF's (New F's) and YF's (Young F's) have a "Stupidiority" Complex, with preconceived notions, and refuse to accpet answers to the contrary, even when presented by OT's and yes, even OF's, who may have "done there, been that" before, or perhaps even had the intelligence of not having had to do that. (Most OT's will tell you even a low power burn will hurt, even if they haven't experienced the same from a 1.5 kW Amateur radio... And they know better than not having to test that to believe the reality.)

[K9STH]

JD:

I never had a problem with complaints on my commercial repeaters. However, they all were conventional community repeater systems and therefore no "busy signals". Maybe being able to hear the other stations conducting business made the users a "bit" more tolerant.

Glen, K9STH

[ki4twb]

Reminds me of a fellow I met on a different forum on an unrelated topic. It seemed like every reply he made to anyone had an unspoken but very loud "stupid" at the end. I met him face to face about a year later and found he's not like that at all. He just didn't type well.

That's not to defend bad manners and grumpy OFs. But it does explain a few of us!

Take any group of people, and you'll find some who find it easier to look good by putting others down instead of working to build themselves up. Such is life.

[AG3Y]

There is an old truth that I learned years ago, regarding attempting something new. The best way to go about this is to learn how it is done currently. Then after a period of training, perhaps years worth, and only then, you may wish to try YOUR new ideas and concepts. Your chances of success are bound to be greater than if you just jump into the deep end of the pool with both feet, and start racing with the olympic champions.

The whole idea of starting a repeater without even having enough knowledge and experience to have a license, is absurd ! There, I have said it, and I will stand by that statement! I AM an OF, but I do NOT have an inferiority complex. When I make a statement on this public forum, you can believe that I truly believe it with all my heart, and not trying to bluff anyone because I am so unsure of myself that I will say anything that SOUNDS authoritive!

Anyone who has read any of my posts on this forum will remember that I have been known to make mistakes, and when I do make those mistakes, I will openly apologize for the mistake and try to clear up the mis-information.

In this case, the other OF's and I have NOT made a mistake. Attempting to put together a repeater that is worth the effort requires a LOT of planning, assembling of parts, building of cables, erection of antennas and perhaps towers, etc. etc. , all of which are a LOT more of a job than the un-initiated can or should be willing to undertake.

None of us are saying that the original poster is STUPID, but we ARE saying that he has a lot to learn, in both theory AND PRACTICE before jumping into the pool of Olympic Champions!

73, Jim

[K7JEM]

There is an old truth that I learned years ago, regarding attempting something new. The best way to go about this is to learn how it is done currently. Then after a period of training, perhaps years worth, and only then, you may wish to try YOUR new ideas and concepts. Your chances of success are bound to be greater than if you just jump into the deep end of the pool with both feet, and start racing with the olympic champions.

The whole idea of starting a repeater without even having enough knowledge and experience to have a license, is absurd ! There, I have said it, and I will stand by that statement! I AM an OF, but I do NOT have an inferiority complex. When I make a statement on this public forum, you can believe that I truly believe it with all my heart, and not trying to bluff anyone because I am so unsure of myself that I will say anything that SOUNDS authoritive!

Anyone who has read any of my posts on this forum will remember that I have been known to make mistakes, and when I do make those mistakes, I will openly apologize for the mistake and try to clear up the mis-information.

In this case, the other OF's and I have NOT made a mistake. Attempting to put together a repeater that is worth the effort requires a LOT of planning, assembling of parts, building of cables, erection of antennas and perhaps towers, etc. etc. , all of which are a LOT more of a job than the un-initiated can or should be willing to undertake.

None of us are saying that the original poster is STUPID, but we ARE saying that he has a lot to learn, in both theory AND PRACTICE before jumping into the pool of Olympic Champions!

73, Jim

Again, we see people pretending that setting up a repeater is some sort of rocket science, or voodoo. It is not. It is, or could be, a relatively simple process. Most hams turn it into some sort of mystical thing because they have either not done it, or have used crappy parts, or tried to make things work that they have heard would work.

A HR license is not needed and conveys no special knowledge of building or installing a repeater, or any other radio station for that matter. A person could have no HR license, and be quite capable of the task, or he might have been an extra class for 30 years and not have a clue.

In today's world, it is easy to get a repeater going if you want one. It could be no more difficult than setting up an hf station.

For $1500 you can buy a brand new repeater, and for that price it will be tuned, programmed to your specs, and ready to go. For 2M, add a $1200 duplexer that comes pre-aligned from the factory. Now add a $200 antenna and $150 worth of feedline and jumpers. You would have to place the repeater at a site, and mount the antenna and run the feedline. That is no different that any other HR setup.

So, for around $3000, you could have an almost turnkey repeater setup. That is less money than most HF radios with an amp and an antenna, so it's not out of the reach of a ham who really wants to do it, and certainly within the range for even a small club.

Many problems come from hams who want to save money, but don't know what they are doing. They heard that a $20 Micor mobile can be made into a repeater, and they spend dozens of man-hours trying to make it work. That is where the expertise really comes in, making things like that work well. But if you don't have the expertise, there are easier ways that will work better, but cost more money.

Joe

[AG3Y]

OK, Joe, how about telling us a little about YOUR credentials. How many radio stations have you set up in your lifetime? How many Television stations? How many REPEATERS?

Who do you go to, to get a repeater pair co-oridinated? Who makes really good repeaters? Who makes really good antennas? Towers? Duplexers? Who knows how to tune them that will do it for you, on site? Do you know if a factory alignment job is going to be good enough after that duplexer is carried perhaps halfway across the country on the back of a truck ?

Man, I sure wish I had the knowledge you seem to possess so that I could get a "Turnkey" repeater for $3000 ! I'm betting that you have a connection with "the mob" or that whatever you get wouldn't be worth trying to put on the air!

But I could be wrong. After all, I AM a "certified Old Fart!"

Jim

[K5FH]

After all, I AM a "certified Old Fart!"

And proud of it, too...as well you should be. Ain't all that many of us left (I say "us" in the general sense, since I have only been a ham for 38 years and am just now approaching that coveted status...) :cool:

K7JEM:

A HR license is not needed and conveys no special knowledge of building or installing a repeater, or any other radio station for that matter. A person could have no HR license, and be quite capable of the task, or he might have been an extra class for 30 years and not have a clue.

True, but irrelevant. A ham ticket is not necessary to build anything. What it is necessary for is TRANSMITTING. After you build it, how are you going to test it? How are you going to legally use it? Unless you want to go the pirate route, you can't transmit without the required license. You can build and listen all you want but transmitting requires a license.

[K7JEM]

OK, Joe, how about telling us a little about YOUR credentials. How many radio stations have you set up in your lifetime? How many Television stations? How many REPEATERS?

Who do you go to, to get a repeater pair co-oridinated? Who makes really good repeaters? Who makes really good antennas? Towers? Duplexers? Who knows how to tune them that will do it for you, on site? Do you know if a factory alignment job is going to be good enough after that duplexer is carried perhaps halfway across the country on the back of a truck ?

Man, I sure wish I had the knowledge you seem to possess so that I could get a "Turnkey" repeater for $3000 ! I'm betting that you have a connection with "the mob" or that whatever you get wouldn't be worth trying to put on the air!

But I could be wrong. After all, I AM a "certified Old Fart!"

Jim

I have put up probably close to 100 repeaters over 30+ years in the business. Most of those were commercial units, but close to half were ham.

Kenwood TKR-750 $1500
Telewave duplexer $1200
Comet antenna $200
100 ft LMR400 $100

If a duplexer is properly shipped, it will remain in tune. One of the biggest problems with ham repeaters is someone fooling around with the duplexer, either trying to solve a desense issue, or trying to get another watt out of it.

A lot of people probably wish they had the knowledge that I have, but that's why they pay me the big bucks.

Joe

[K7JEM]

:

K7JEM:



True, but irrelevant. A ham ticket is not necessary to build anything. What it is necessary for is TRANSMITTING. After you build it, how are you going to test it? How are you going to legally use it? Unless you want to go the pirate route, you can't transmit without the required license. You can build and listen all you want but transmitting requires a license.

The licensee doesn't have to be the person that put it together. Anyone with a technician or better license can be trustee for a 2M repeater.

Many ham repeaters are put together and serviced by people that have no HR license. Radio shops across the country routinely maintain these machines. They are the people with the test equipment, and usually know what they're doing.

Joe

[ai4ep]

...another one of I K Troll threads... ( I K = insane kangaroo ) ..

[ab9lz]

There is an old truth that I learned years ago, regarding attempting something new. The best way to go about this is to learn how it is done currently. Then after a period of training, perhaps years worth, and only then, you may wish to try YOUR new ideas and concepts. Your chances of success are bound to be greater than if you just jump into the deep end of the pool with both feet, and start racing with the olympic champions.


I'll call B.S. on that one, innovation is quite different than physical training, more often than not, it's the smart feller with the unencumbered view (perhaps from not having to put up with years of mindless "training") that pushes the domain to the next level.

That "old truth" is nothing more than an old wives tale.

73 m/4

[k2gsp]

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l187/dillsrotary/witness-this-epic-thread.gif

[AG3Y]

Joe, are you trying to tell us that you knew as much about putting up repeaters when you started 30+ years and 0ver 100 repeaters ago, as you do now ? ? ? :eek:


I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. It took me YEARS to learn what I know today, and I would be the FIRST to admit that I certainly don't know as much as YOU MUST about electronics. After all, I only worked in Broadcast Engineering, and then Satellite transmitter research and development since the late 60s. :rolleyes:

I still am learning, every day! ;)

[ab8ro]

Joe, are you trying to tell us that you knew as much about putting up repeaters when you started 30+ years and 0ver 100 repeaters ago, as you do now ? ? ? :eek:



I can't speak for Joe but that's not what I'm getting from his posts. What I hear is that as an experienced repeater installer it's his belief that the difficulty in setting up a repeater is overblown by many hams.

This is common among hams, it seems, as they want ham radio to be perceived as a difficult activity which demands their consultation on the simplest of activities.

What I'm also hearing from Joe, and I agree, is that just because someone doesn't have a license doesn't mean that they are new to electronics, radio, or other technical matters.

[AG3Y]

What I am suspecting as I read his posts, is that he has forgotten how difficult a task it might be for a brand-new repeater builder. Certainly if someone has done something 100 times, it is going to be easier for him to do the 101st time than it was the first, or even the tenth time !

That is what I have been trying to say in my last couple of posts. The whole idea of apprenticeship ( which is a PROVEN METHOD, NOT AN OLD WIVES TALE ! ! ! ) is to study how the artisian or master of his craft, does things, and then after learning how it has been done for a good while, and only then, try something new. To jump in to the new thing without learning the old method can and often does result in a lot of wasted time, effort, and mistakes being made. Argue that fact all you want, but it is still a FACT!

It may not be the intention of the original poster of this thread, but all too often us O.F.s see the newcomer enter a post, ask a question, receive answers based on YEARS of collective experience, and turn around and argue with the O.F.s that "they don't know what they are talking about" and " they are just showing their inferiority complexes " .

The O.F.s often get enough of this kind of B.S. that they just walk away from it, sometimes never to return. An awful lot of good advice and knowledge is lost to the newcomer as a result!

[K7JEM]

Joe, are you trying to tell us that you knew as much about putting up repeaters when you started 30+ years and 0ver 100 repeaters ago, as you do now ? ? ? :eek:


No, I was pretty stupid about repeaters back then, and commercial ones were overly high priced to be buying for ham service. I learned on such dubious things as pre-prog strips, Motrac H receivers, and VHF Engineering kit type repeaters. There was no really easy way to do things back then.

Today is a different story. If a ham doesn't want to fool around with converting old commercial equipment, there are lots of options available at reasonable cost. And those alternatives will work fine without a lot of user intervention. We don't live in the 70's any more. It is entirely possible for a complete newbie to set up a perfectly fine working repeater, with very little technical expertise.

I bow to your superior knowledge and experience. It took me YEARS to learn what I know today, and I would be the FIRST to admit that I certainly don't know as much as YOU MUST about electronics. After all, I only worked in Broadcast Engineering, and then Satellite transmitter research and development since the late 60s. :rolleyes:

I still am learning, every day! ;)

That's fine. I don't know anything about your technical prowess, I only know of my own. I don't learn new things every day, haven't for a long time. The point I'm making is that regardless of your technical ability, it just doesn't take that much ability to set up a store bought repeater.

My advice to newbies that want to put up a repeater is this: Get a Yaesu, Icom, or Kenwood repeater, purchase a duplexer that is already tuned, get a decent antenna and feedline, and hook it all together. Chances are pretty good that it will work fine. Then LEAVE IT ALONE.

This is not rocket science, it is a receiver and a transmitter. Don't make it more than it really is, but don't cut a lot of corners either.

Joe

[K7JEM]

What I am suspecting as I read his posts, is that he has forgotten how difficult a task it might be for a brand-new repeater builder. Certainly if someone has done something 100 times, it is going to be easier for him to do the 101st time than it was the first, or even the tenth time !

What I have learned is that most people have no business building a repeater, they are better off buying something that will work for them. THAT is what I have learned from years of building repeaters.

Many hams have no business building an HF transmitter, if what they want to do is get on and operate. As they gain knowledge, then they will be able to build their own things. But we don't tell newbies that they shouldn't be on HF because the equipment is to complex for them to build from scratch.

That is what I have been trying to say in my last couple of posts. The whole idea of apprenticeship ( which is a PROVEN METHOD, NOT AN OLD WIVES TALE ! ! ! ) is to study how the artisian or master of his craft, does things, and then after learning how it has been done for a good while, and only then, try something new. To jump in to the new thing without learning the old method can and often does result in a lot of wasted time, effort, and mistakes being made. Argue that fact all you want, but it is still a FACT!
No, that is not a fact, it's not even necessarily true.
It may not be the intention of the original poster of this thread, but all too often us O.F.s see the newcomer enter a post, ask a question, receive answers based on YEARS of collective experience, and turn around and argue with the O.F.s that "they don't know what they are talking about" and " they are just showing their inferiority complexes " .
I see the point of the original poster. Hams want to think that what they do is oh so complex, so difficult that NO newcomer should attempt it. Most of the people giving bum advice here probably don't currently own a repeater, or know much about current technology and products. That is quite apparent.
The O.F.s often get enough of this kind of B.S. that they just walk away from it, sometimes never to return. An awful lot of good advice and knowledge is lost to the newcomer as a result!

As in most things in life, the newbie will have to wade through tons of BS to get the real deal. What some interpret as good advice may actually be tripe, or someone spouting about something they know nothing about. I see it here all the time. When I do see it, I try to correct it.

Joe

[wr5aw]

Most people don't have any business working on their own cars. Much less building one. There was a time when they made their own transportation. They carved stones, then hewed timber and learned to make wooden wheels. They raised mules and oxen and horses. But even in those days, most bought or traded for their transportation. Most didn't have the skills to create their own. But a skilled horseman was no less skilled at breaking and riding horses just because he didn't breed and raise his own horse. And today a skilled Indy car driver is no less a skilled driver because he hasn't the skills to build his own Indy car.

And so it is with radio. The communications age. There are those who started out tinkering and soldering. They had four things going for them. Someone taught them how to do it. The theory was fairly basic. Components were easy to come by. And the physical skills amounted to mechanical assembly and solder smoke.

Enter the information age. Add to that the throw-away mentality. Circuits on a stick. It breaks, you throw it away, and plug in another. Oh, I'd love to build my own rig old-school style. But I'd be hard pressed to find the raw components. Heck, I was thinking about building a tuner. Not that complicated a device it seems. But try to find the raw materials these days. Yea, there out there. For a price.

We just lost a valuable asset in our area with the passing of a long-time electronics junk store owner. We affectionately called it the candy store. Nortex Electronics for those familiar with the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Just about anything you needed in the way of electronics components and various surplus gadgets and machines. One of those places you wear your old jeans to and carry a flashlight for the darker corners.

For those of us in the here and now, we're pretty much stuck right here where we're at. Where instead of chassis and wire and tubes and components you draw a block diagram on a computer, source the various chips, and mail order the minor components. Draw up a mask. Send it out to some one-off company because it's cheaper than etching it yourself. Maybe wind a few coils, chokes, and torroids while you're waiting for the board. Then sit down under some frigging thousand dollar microscope hands shaking so bad you hope you don't hose that chip you only bought one of because it was back-ordered to begin with.

Look, I write software for a hobby after having done it for a living. I've used high-level languages. I don't write compilers. And I don't write assembly language. I rather let the guys in the trenches do that stuff. They give me the tools to work with. That doesn't make me any less skilled just because I don't build my own tools. I rather look at it as resourceful.

We have far more resources today than in the golden age. They're just different. And make no mistake about it. We've lost some resources. Mainly a lot of the OFs whose wealth of knowledge seems to get more lost with each generation. I cringe at the thought of loosing any more of you guys. I just hope I can manage to learn enough to pass some of that stuff on to the next generation. It doesn't have to be wire and solder smoke. Maybe just the basics. I fear we'll never get back to the basics with all this chip on a stick stuff. But I'll do everything I can to pass something on. And in the mean time maybe I can learn something from the young pups. They have a lot more skills than we give them credit for.

All I want to do right now is enjoy the hobby. I'll learn what I can as I go. I'll keep adding to my skills. And hopefully, one day, I'll homebrew something, become somebody's elmer, and leave it to them in my will. Of course, being built in the 21st century, it'll be just so much old-school junk by then. But maybe they'll enjoy the nostalgia of it all.

Do I have an inferiority complex? You bet I do. I can't engineer a rig from front to back. That makes me feel inferior to all these RF engineers we affectionately call OFs. Am I an OF myself? Depends. I prefer to call myself a non-traditional (meaning OLD) new guy on the block.

And for the record, I may not agree with everything folks say. And I may not hold some things in as high a regard as some folks. But I DO respect the knowledge, skills and experience you guys bring to ham radio. I respect you. And I thank you for your contributions. Even if I do think some of you are rude crude and crotchety. You still rock.

[KA4DPO]

I have to bow to AG3Y, I could not have said it better. I have never installed an amateur repeater but there was a time when I did install 10 GHZ commercial repeaters. I was the smartest kid on the block with my brand new EE degree and the first time I did a ten gig setup I found out just how much I didn't know. The next time I knew more and like Jim said, I learned a lot from the old guys I worked with. Books are great but they are no match for experience.

What I read from Joe is the equivalent of asking the person next to you at the bus stop what time the bus arrives and when they tell you 9:00 you tell them their full of $#*& even though you have no idea when the bus is due. What do you think would happen?

[N8CPA]

In the late 80's/early 90's, when so many rigs came out of the box with crossband capability, I finally understood why so many of the OT's at the time called repeaters "ego boxes." The local technets were full of newbies asking how to set the extra rig up as a repeater for ham community access, where coordinators were already pulling out their hair. I think echolionk nodes today are more or less in the same circumstance.

[K7JEM]

What I read from Joe is the equivalent of asking the person next to you at the bus stop what time the bus arrives and when they tell you 9:00 you tell them their full of $#*& even though you have no idea when the bus is due. What do you think would happen?

No, it's more like you ask a guy down the street that may not even ride the bus, and he tells you that the bus is crap, that you need to buy a car or call a taxi. He'll tell you that based on what he heard from some guy that rode the bus, that it is no good. Or he will base his opinion on his experience in riding the bus 25 years ago.

He will try to convince you NOT to ride the bus. I am giving pointers on how to best do it, if that is what you want to do.

Joe

[k0cmh]

There is no cat fight like the OF/Noob cat fight.

"And in this corner, in the red trunks, for the OFs is . . ."

[AG3Y]

Not a "cat fight" as far as I'm concerned! If you want my advice, read what I write. If not, just skip to the next post! It's as simple as that. I am NOT forcing my knowledge, opinion, experience, etc. for whatever they are worth, down ANYBODY'S throat !

Whether you want to heed it, or not, is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU !

[w2vw]

No, it's more like you ask a guy down the street that may not even ride the bus, and he tells you that the bus is crap, that you need to buy a car or call a taxi. He'll tell you that based on what he heard from some guy that rode the bus, that it is no good. Or he will base his opinion on his experience in riding the bus 25 years ago.

He will try to convince you NOT to ride the bus. I am giving pointers on how to best do it, if that is what you want to do.

Joe

You forgot to add the part where the guy makes it known that he once worked at a motorcycle factory. Everyone knows that folks who used to work at motorcycle factories are authorities on buses. You have to be pretty sharp to work at a motorcycle factory. Then the guy tells you that he knows another guy who designs mopeds. Moped designers outrank retired motorcycle factory workers when it comes to raw knowledge. The moped guy even has a webpage with stuff that supports the motorcycle guy's nuggets of knowledge. If it's on a webpage the argument is over because only facts are allowed on webpages.


Watch for the blanket statements. Those take care of any leftover doubt:rolleyes:

[ab9lz]

No, it's more like you ask a guy down the street that may not even ride the bus, and he tells you that the bus is crap, that you need to buy a car or call a taxi. He'll tell you that based on what he heard from some guy that rode the bus, that it is no good. Or he will base his opinion on his experience in riding the bus 25 years ago.

He will try to convince you NOT to ride the bus. I am giving pointers on how to best do it, if that is what you want to do.

Joe

How true, this pandemic of utter nonsense always rears it's ugly head when a new guy asks about wanting to try QRP... a few OF's here (that I suspect have never really tried it) always dogpile on and tell him that's it's a bad thing for a new guy to try.

73 m/4

[n5ipt]

so much belittleing happens here, no wonder our hobby is dying, how do you expect to attract new comers when you put many of us down for not knowing the answers you do?

In real life, I've never seen the attitude I've seen here.

You could say this site is dieing, or the people who go to this site or dieing, but the most likely explanation is amateur radio is already dead for many of those who post here.

If it's dead to them, that's their business. Unfortunately they share it with everyone on this forum too often, and that's where you may get this idea. It's probably a small few who are the actual culprits of such negativity.

To me, amateur radio is new and neat. The people involved are old, but usually they have something they can teach.

[KE5TND]

In real life, I've never seen the attitude I've seen here.


90% of the people with the snide remarks and the I'm better than you I know all attitude would never act that way in person. Take a look at the Tony Snow thread and read the comments on people saying things like "he got what he deserved". I've spent some time on other forums but I've never seen anything quite like what goes on here.

[AG3Y]

Oh, come on, have you ever been to Youtube and looked at some of the remarks that are found in the comments sections of the videos on display. As "The Jazz Singer" Al Jolson said, "You ain't seen NUTTIN' Yet !"

[k8wpj]

What I have learned is that most people have no business building a repeater, they are better off buying something that will work for them. THAT is what I have learned from years of building repeaters.

Many hams have no business building an HF transmitter, if what they want to do is get on and operate. As they gain knowledge, then they will be able to build their own things. But we don't tell newbies that they shouldn't be on HF because the equipment is to complex for them to build from scratch.
No, that is not a fact, it's not even necessarily true.I see the point of the original poster. Hams want to think that what they do is oh so complex, so difficult that NO newcomer should attempt it. Most of the people giving bum advice here probably don't currently own a repeater, or know much about current technology and products. That is quite apparent.

As in most things in life, the newbie will have to wade through tons of BS to get the real deal. What some interpret as good advice may actually be tripe, or someone spouting about something they know nothing about. I see it here all the time. When I do see it, I try to correct it.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I enjoy chatting on repeaters, and it was one of the first things I got active in, once I got licensed...

But, one thing I've never wanted to do, was built a repeater and get it on the air...

I mean, I've been a licenced driver since 1980, but in all that time, I never got the urge to build a car, either...

On the other hand, I have been a beer drinker for decades too, but, I've only recently started brewing my own... To each his own, eh?

71's*

Matt
K8WPJ

*budget cutbacks have hit us all hard... Cutbacks will continue in all areas till sanity resumes.

[KE5TND]

Oh, come on, have you ever been to Youtube and looked at some of the remarks that are found in the comments sections of the videos on display. As "The Jazz Singer" Al Jolson said, "You ain't seen NUTTIN' Yet !"

I sure have but that is completely different. On this forum your callsign easily identifies who you are and I'm saying that there is no way a lot of people here would act the way they do on this forum in person. An anonymous troll on youtube has nothing to do with what is going on here.

[AG3Y]

Ya gotta point ! :o Ya know somethin' though ? I have heard a few "defending" the SSTV "calling frequency" ( 14.230 on 20 meters ) and NOT being AT ALL genteel about it ! So maybe it isn't as confined to this forum as one might think. Huh ? :(

[KE5TND]

Ya gotta point ! :o Ya know somethin' though ? I have heard a few "defending" the SSTV "calling frequency" ( 14.230 on 20 meters ) and NOT being AT ALL genteel about it ! So maybe it isn't as confined to this forum as one might think. Huh ? :(

You are probably correct on that, perhaps it is just human nature. I doubt those you are talking about would deal with the situation the same way in person as they chose to on the air either.

[N8CPA]

Inferiority complex?
Balderdash!
Stop talking out of your posterior!
It's to save the feelings of your simple mind
And to hide that we're superior.

[ab9lz]

Not a "cat fight" as far as I'm concerned! If you want my advice, read what I write. If not, just skip to the next post! It's as simple as that. I am NOT forcing my knowledge, opinion, experience, etc. for whatever they are worth, down ANYBODY'S throat !

Whether you want to heed it, or not, is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU !

Some of the "ahh you can't do that 'cause you can't possibly know enuff" types" are quick to be the first responders to any and all questions, the newbies probably think "ooh, he must know what he is talking about"... and either figure out with time that those guys are full of it, or they get discouraged and mouth off to the group. It appears our fuzzy friend did the latter.

73 m/4

[wa9cwx]

One of the 'truths' of teaching and learning is that it takes MORE effort to learn, than to teach.

Another is that no one can learn ANYTHING in a field they think they already know everything worth knowing in the FIRST place.

The age-old tradition of gaining experience, passing it on, having it re-worked and added to by the next generation after enough TIME and experienced has passed, has evidently lost any percieved value among several who post here.

Most interesting, is the WAY in which they discount the passing on of experience.
Personal attacks ( I see the original call sign has been Xed out by a QRZ moderator), insults, and a reference to how experienced hams are some combination of 'stupid', or suffering from some 'complex', etc., etc.

Actual 'learning' is an art.

It involves an open approach to information, opinions, and new inputs. It reflects the learners ability to tolerate his own state of 'lack', while holding on to a vision of his future skill.

The end result of that 'self tolerance' during the learning process is the accumilation of OTHER's wisdom, his OWN new information, and the eventual evolution of a new, improved, evolved, bit of information in the field.
Again, a simple, time honored method.

For MOST of us, it is in small steps, little 'tricks', 'wisdoms', sometimes 'short cuts', that are the result of US listening to OUR 'Elmers', trying things ourselves with that background, then adding TO that information.

That is the evolution of any field, formal, as in education, training programs, apprenticships, and little fields, like HOBBIES.

Again, the LEARNING is more difficult than the teaching, but NO learning can take place at all, when someone just knows they are beyond all that sillyness.

[K8MHZ]

Why do Brits drink warm beer? They have Lucas refridgerators. :)

Not *that's* funny!!!

[ab9lz]

The age-old tradition of gaining experience, passing it on, having it re-worked and added to by the next generation after enough TIME and experienced has passed, has evidently lost any percieved value among several who post here.


Good lord, how could I even think of tacking down that H bridge mixer without sound knowledge of TRF's and Autodynes! I should know better :)

Now where did I put that 1206 SMT grid leak?

73 m/4

[AG3Y]

1206, how about 0402 ? ? ?

Yes, in my last job, I excelled at soldering devices as small as that, by hand, into prototype satellite units. And if I hadn't learned how to put together KnightKit(tm) and Heathkit(tm) test gear while I was still in High School, I would NEVER had been willing or able to tackle that job! You should have seen some of the hack jobs that some of those green behind the ears, fresh out of College Engineers tried to do on those parts. After my skills became known, all that work was handed over to me.

Go ahead and try to "tack down that H bridge mixer" if you wish, but after you have messed it up, get hold of someone with some EXPERIENCE ! ( assuming that you don't, of course ! ) :confused: ;) :rolleyes:

[wa9cwx]

1206, how about 0402 ? ? ?

Yes, in my last job, I excelled at soldering devices as small as that, by hand, into prototype satellite units. And if I hadn't learned how to put together KnightKit(tm) and Heathkit(tm) test gear while I was still in High School, I would NEVER had been willing or able to tackle that job! You should have seen some of the hack jobs that some of those green behind the ears, fresh out of College Engineers tried to do on those parts. After my skills became known, all that work was handed over to me.

Go ahead and try to "tack down that H bridge mixer" if you wish, but after you have messed it up, get hold of someone with some EXPERIENCE ! ( assuming that you don't, of course ! ) :confused: ;) :rolleyes:

The TIME between TRF and SMD is FILLED with experiences, changes, and passed on knowlege...Thank goodness the line wasn't dependent on someone with the aformentioned attitudes !!!! :D

[WA9SVD]

Good lord, how could I even think of tacking down that H bridge mixer without sound knowledge of TRF's and Autodynes! I should know better :)

Now where did I put that 1206 SMT grid leak?

73 m/4

Grid leak?

You mean... never mind. Just get some extra newspaper...