Wind Energy

[kb9xn]

Anyone in the Ham Radio community using wind energy to power their home, farm, ranch.
How do you like it.
Yes, I already know that it will take a while to recoup my investment, not worried about that, am more interested in saving $
Am currently considering a BERGEY 3.5 kw wind generator with additional solar panels to be added at a later time.
I would find your comments of interest.
thanks,
Howard
KB9XN

[kb9xn]

I'm sorry, the title is WIND ENERGY

kb9xn

[K8ERV]

I liked the first title better, thot maybe you had come up with something new!

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[KI6NNO]

I don't own a turbine, but did look into this previously. It didn't make financial sense to put one in because it took too long to recover the initial investment and I didn't expect to be able to go 30 years without some kind of major repair expense (which the cash flow model I was shown omitted). This was around 1995. Since then I've moved and it's no longer a concern for me.

Fwiw, I didn't know that Bergey makes a 3.5KW unit. I thought they're just 1KW and 10KW now. Also, I'd chose an AC model over a DC model any day - all other things being equal.

73, KI6NNO

[N5USR]

I've been doing a lot of reading on renewable / alternative energy sources lately, primarily solar but also wind as well as a few others. One of the very first things almost everyone on the RE forums tell first-timers is:

You will NOT save money by installing solar or wind power!

Even with the higher energy rates we pay right now, it is still very difficult to even recover your installation costs (on the order of decades, if ever) let alone actually save money.

There are still good reasons to do the install: some level of independence from the grid in event of power failures, or just too far away to get grid power in the first place, you want to be "green" (which is also debatable at some levels!), or maybe the best one to me - "because you can"! :D

I'm more focused on solar, but from what I've read the issues are similar for wind. Some of the manufacturers are now claiming 10- to 15-year paybacks, but those are based on "ideal" power output and also don't factor in maintenance or other issues. (You have other parts in the system, depending on how it is configured. Batteries, inverters, charge controllers, dump loads, so forth.)

That said, I'm in the "because I can" camp! :p Last week I picked up a set of solar panels from Harbor Freight (45W solar kit) for just under $200. The various forums indicated they are actually pretty good panels, just all the other stuff in the kit is junk! I picked up a higher quality charge controller online and can now run about 2 amps during the day off the panels. (I haven't even mounted them "properly", they're just laying on the north-facing side of my roof!) Before long I'll get them mounted on the south face and run the cables into the shack. Then maybe see about adding more higher-capacity panels and creating a proper PV system.

I briefly considered wind, but don't have the space to put up the tower I would need to clear the 40+ foot trees I have in the surrounding yards. I'm also not sure if my city got rid of the ordinance banning them! I saw it on the books 20 years ago, not sure if it's still there though.

Here's one site I have really enjoyed, they do a lot of wind power (even build their own) as well as some very interesting generators. At the bottom of the page you'll find a link to their forums.
http://www.otherpower.com/

And a forum on solar power:
http://www.solarpowerforum.net/forumVB/

[WB2WIK]

I've been doing a lot of reading on renewable / alternative energy sources lately, primarily solar but also wind as well as a few others. One of the very first things almost everyone on the RE forums tell first-timers is:

You will NOT save money by installing solar or wind power!



::Absolute rubbish. I have solar power here. We have panels enough to produce 7.2 kW of power and it runs the whole house, including central A/C, three refrigerators, pool pump, spa pump, pool heater, spa heater, and everything else. We put power back into the grid from April through November and get paid by the electric company at a rate averaging $120/month for the excess power we generate and don't use.

Installation cost was $30K. State of CA subsidized half that, so it was really $15K. The L.A. Dep't. of Water and Power's rebate for signing off on an approved installation was $5K, leaving the actual cost at $10K. With the dividends from DWP, it will be fully "paid off" in 36 months and then be free after that.

It's currently 6:25PM and when I look at the meter I see I'm generating about 9 kW right now, which is about 4 kW more than we need. The batteries cannot take that high a charge rate, so it's all going back into the grid at $.174 per kWh.

People who say it doesn't pay off either have never tried it or live someplace where it's cloudy a lot. Here in L.A., we have 330 days of sunshine and they payoff occurs within three years.

WB2WIK/6

[N5USR]

Well, perhaps there are some areas where you can achieve payoff. I merely stated what I read in quite a few different places. They even had numbers to back their claims up - numbers that didn't appear unreasonable.

I will grant that the people they said that to were NOT from southern CA or Arizona, those are certainly the best areas for solar. Many were from northern or northeast states. (And the OP shows to be in IL, which gets far less insolation than your location.)

Now, if they really are off-base, then cool bean. I'd love to be able to do that myself at some point. But at this point it's definitely still a new hobby and learning experience for me.

[M0DSZ]

I've seen a combination of horizontal wind turbines and solar panels used to charge batteries on microwave relay stations around the Mediterranean in Europe. Some owners of restaurants in remote places around there use a.c. output to run the deep-freezers. This is on the premise that deep-freezers are not opened very often so an intermittent power supply is not a problem. They must have access to budget-priced wind turbines out there and I'm referring mainly to Italy, Greece and Turkey.

My plan is to use the permanent-magnet 3-phase motor that I already have as an alternator and construct a vertical axis turbine. This will charge large batteries, which is all I expect of it. The variable a.c. output will be rectified and then, if necessary, chopped with an inverter to produce whatever voltage I like. Most of the equipment is from junk salvaged so there's little cost involved.

If you have to buy in ready-made wind generation, no matter what the size, and this includes megawatt giants, the cost will outweigh the saving in electricity bills.

[W4HAY]

...State of CA subsidized half that...
Don't you mean the TAXPAYERS subsidized half that?

[K7JEM]

::Absolute rubbish. I have solar power here. We have panels enough to produce 7.2 kW of power and it runs the whole house, including central A/C, three refrigerators, pool pump, spa pump, pool heater, spa heater, and everything else. We put power back into the grid from April through November and get paid by the electric company at a rate averaging $120/month for the excess power we generate and don't use.

Installation cost was $30K. State of CA subsidized half that, so it was really $15K. The L.A. Dep't. of Water and Power's rebate for signing off on an approved installation was $5K, leaving the actual cost at $10K. With the dividends from DWP, it will be fully "paid off" in 36 months and then be free after that.

It's currently 6:25PM and when I look at the meter I see I'm generating about 9 kW right now, which is about 4 kW more than we need. The batteries cannot take that high a charge rate, so it's all going back into the grid at $.174 per kWh.

People who say it doesn't pay off either have never tried it or live someplace where it's cloudy a lot. Here in L.A., we have 330 days of sunshine and they payoff occurs within three years.

WB2WIK/6

Normally, the payoff is a lot longer. Without the rebates, and the repurchasing of power at a premium rate, it would take many, many years.

If you could produce 7KW of power for 10 hours each day, or 300 hours a month, that would be 2100 KWh per month, or about $250 worth of electricity. That would take 10 years to recoup your $30K investment, assuming no interest.

The installation costs are a lot higher now, too. At least in our area. And the federal installation rebates are set to expire at the end of this year.

It's a good thing, it's just that a lot of the cost is being absorbed by the government. Without those incentives, not quite as good of deal, but still worth checking out.

Joe

[N2RJ]

Don't you mean the TAXPAYERS subsidized half that?

Taxpayers subsidize a lot of things, including roads, rural telephone service and even amateur radio.

I think that investing in renewable energy is a great thing.

A solar panel on every house would be a great use of tax dollars if it allows us to burn less coal, oil and natural gas.

[WB2WIK]

Taxpayers subsidize a lot of things, including roads, rural telephone service and even amateur radio.

I think that investing in renewable energy is a great thing.

A solar panel on every house would be a great use of tax dollars if it allows us to burn less coal, oil and natural gas.

::I agree. Taxpayers don't get to choose what their elected officials spend money on but this is one are where few would argue it's not a very good subsidy, an investment in future generations and the well being of the country and the planet.

Then again, I'm in favor of building more nuclear reactors also (to generate power). They're clean, efficient and pretty low-risk and can generate power more economically than fossil fuels. We don't have many in California due to earthquake risks and political issues (maybe more the politics) but the few we do have generate a lot of power while emitting water vapor and not choking the environment.

Anything to get away from coal and oil. Anything.

[K8MHZ]

Steve,

How did you get 9kW out of 7.2kWs worth of solar panels?

Did I miss something?

[WB2WIK]

Steve,

How did you get 9kW out of 7.2kWs worth of solar panels?

Did I miss something?

::The 7.2kW is an average rating for a typical day with average humidity and represents 48V at 150A. On a very clear day with humidity below 15% as we often have, the cells can produce over 180A. This is very common, especially around here where afternoon humidity is often close to zero.

WB2WIK/6

[N2RJ]

Normally, the payoff is a lot longer. Without the rebates, and the repurchasing of power at a premium rate, it would take many, many years.

If you could produce 7KW of power for 10 hours each day, or 300 hours a month, that would be 2100 KWh per month, or about $250 worth of electricity. That would take 10 years to recoup your $30K investment, assuming no interest.

The installation costs are a lot higher now, too. At least in our area. And the federal installation rebates are set to expire at the end of this year.

It's a good thing, it's just that a lot of the cost is being absorbed by the government. Without those incentives, not quite as good of deal, but still worth checking out.

Joe

I would imagine that in AZ solar would be quite viable.

I see the Hualapai tribe uses solar (with a diesel gen backup) to power their tourist sites.

I'd love to put solar here, but the cost is something I have to consider carefully. We get no local rebates from our utility but they do buy the power back.

Also, if we're getting solar I'd like a system with batteries as it means energy independence if the grid is unavailable for some reason. Some systems are strictly grid tie, no batteries.

[WB2WIK]

I would imagine that in AZ solar would be quite viable.

I see the Hualapai tribe uses solar (with a diesel gen backup) to power their tourist sites.

I'd love to put solar here, but the cost is something I have to consider carefully. We get no local rebates from our utility but they do buy the power back.

Also, if we're getting solar I'd like a system with batteries as it means energy independence if the grid is unavailable for some reason. Some systems are strictly grid tie, no batteries.

::I've never seen a "batteryless" solar energy system! Maybe they exist but not around here. If there are places where the local govt and utilities don't issue rebates, awards, credits etc. for solar installs they're really missing the boat. Our energy credit system is very liberal, and all forms of alternative energy installations and use are highly encouraged. Hell, we have entire counties that are wind-powered, exclusively...and the rates per kWh are much lower than elsewhere. I think nobody would want to live in Palm Springs, where you need A/C 24/7 most of the year, if not for the cheap electric power.

WB2WIK/6

[G0GQK]

Good grief ! That man must live in Texas, where everything is bigger. The letters and numbers on his computer really are very big.

G0GQK

[N2RJ]

::I've never seen a "batteryless" solar energy system!

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago94.html

If there are places where the local govt and utilities don't issue rebates, awards, credits etc. for solar installs they're really missing the boat.

We're Sussex REC (http://www.sussexrec.com) customers. They're a cooperative that co-owns a nuke plant and is contracted to two hydro plants. 70% of the energy comes from there. 30% is bought on the open market. I've only seen one solar array in town, and that was at a local Church. I'd imagine they had that donated.

Our electric bill isn't that high anyway. We pay around 10c/kWh, and our rates are lower than neighboring utilities like JCP&L and PSE&G.

[WB2WIK]

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/yago94.html



We're Sussex REC (http://www.sussexrec.com) customers. They're a cooperative that co-owns a nuke plant and is contracted to two hydro plants. 70% of the energy comes from there. 30% is bought on the open market. I've only seen one solar array in town, and that was at a local Church. I'd imagine they had that donated.

Our electric bill isn't that high anyway. We pay around 10c/kWh, and our rates are lower than neighboring utilities like JCP&L and PSE&G.

::That's a very competitive rate. I pay about $0.18/kWh but at least any power put back into the grid is purchased at the same rate.

[N2RJ]

My reason for wanting solar is grid independence. Heaven forbid something bad happens, solar is the most foolproof way to keep the lights on.

[WB2WIK]

My reason for wanting solar is grid independence. Heaven forbid something bad happens, solar is the most foolproof way to keep the lights on.

::I agree. A gas, propane or diesel generator is not nearly as reliable and unless it's very large won't power your whole house, anyway. Solar is the way to go.

Only bad part is, as technology evolves solar power will get cheaper and cheaper so we "early adopters" will feel stupid one day for paying so much.

But, that's life!

[kb9xn]

Thanks to one and all for their comments and thoughts about "Wind Energy"

My son and I will be headed off to secure solar panels, a free standing tubular tower and hardware for inverting DC to AC.

The batteries are on order and now all I have to do is garner the proper permit from the county and get the turbine generator ordered.

hopefully we will have everything up and running before the first frost.

Our aim is to be free of the grid and this move will be the first step in the right direction.

We are doing the install ourselves, saving about 17,000 bux. The county provides free inspections and I have an electrician friend that I can hire for the limited chores that we need a licensed electrician for.

Thanks everyone.

73, KB9XN :)

[k8jd]

When I read "wind generator" I always wonder why anyone, other than a movie studio or aerodynamic test facility, would want to generate wind >?
Seriously ( :D ) some SSB ops on 75 M must generate enough hot wind to, at least, power thier KW amps !

[WB2WIK]

When I read "wind generator" I always wonder why anyone, other than a movie studio or aerodynamic test facility, would want to generate wind >?


::Oh, I don't know. A couple bean burritos and I'm generating more than the family appreciates.

[N2RJ]

JEez, XN, we're not blind you know...

[WB2WIK]

Thanks to one and all for their comments and thoughts about "Wind Energy"

My son and I will be headed off to secure solar panels, a free standing tubular tower and hardware for inverting DC to AC.

The batteries are on order and now all I have to do is garner the proper permit from the county and get the turbine generator ordered.

hopefully we will have everything up and running before the first frost.

Our aim is to be free of the grid and this move will be the first step in the right direction.

We are doing the install ourselves, saving about 17,000 bux. The county provides free inspections and I have an electrician friend that I can hire for the limited chores that we need a licensed electrician for.

Thanks everyone.

73, KB9XN :)


::Regulations vary, but here in L.A. nobody has to inspect the DC side of these systems at all, and it can all be homebrewed if you wish. A City electrical inspector must sign off and approve (after inspection) the connection to the AC mains. Here, that doesn't cost anything at all, but you may have to wait a few weeks for the guy to show up.

WB2WIK/6

[N2RJ]

That's great to know. We don't require inspections (or even permits!) for anything < 48v.

Tractor supply even sells panels. Not just small ones either. I suppose you can build a system bit by bit.

The inverter, if it's grid tie, may have to be installed by a licensed electrician since you're dealing with the service. I don't mind doing that at all.

[WB2WIK]

That's great to know. We don't require inspections (or even permits!) for anything < 48v.

Tractor supply even sells panels. Not just small ones either. I suppose you can build a system bit by bit.

The inverter, if it's grid tie, may have to be installed by a licensed electrician since you're dealing with the service. I don't mind doing that at all.

::Here, even a "licensed electrician" is not good enough. The final tag must be signed by a City inspector. But again, since they charge "nothing" for the service, I don't mind...just they can have a backlog and in my case I waited about four weeks to get an appointment. Our local utility (electric) is owned by the City (Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power) and they're very picky. I'm sure this varies.