View Full Version : Canada's Socialized Medicine
W4HAY
06-26-2008, 01:35 PM
As this presidential campaign continues, the candidates' comments about health care will continue to include stories of their own experiences and anecdotes of people across the country...
...But no one will mention Claude Castonguay...
... Back in the 1960s, Castonguay chaired a Canadian government committee studying health reform...
...The government followed his advice, leading to his modern-day moniker: "the father of Quebec medicare"...
...Four decades later, as the chairman of a government committee reviewing Quebec health care this year, Castonguay concluded that the system is in "crisis."
"We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it," says Castonguay. But now he prescribes a radical overhaul: "We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice."...
...However the candidates choose to proceed, Americans should know that one of the founding fathers of Canada's government-run health care system has turned against his own creation. If Claude Castonguay is abandoning ship, why should Americans bother climbing on board?
Canadian Health Care We So Envy Lies In Ruins, Its Architect Admits (http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=299282509335931)
n2ize
06-26-2008, 04:18 PM
Actually most Canadians I have talked to won't trade their health care system for ours.
But I like our system better. I like it when millions of people are uninsured. I like when they use the er and can't pay the bill. I like it when people have to select between their health or home. And I love it when people think they are covered and then find an important claim is rejected and it's gonna have to come out of their pocket. The look on their faces is priceless. And then they put the house up for sale to pay the bill. Priceless.
With respect to overall world health care we rank about 36th. Cool !! And our life expectancy is going down. Super Awesome !
N9MOQ
06-26-2008, 04:34 PM
Actually most Canadians I have talked to won't trade their health care system for ours.
My friends in Canada tell me the exact same thing. They are very happy with their health care system.
But I like our system better. I like it when millions of people are uninsured. I like when they use the er and can't pay the bill. I like it when people have to select between their health or home.
I like the Canadian system better. At the same time, I don't like either Obama, Hillary or McCain's ideas or plans for health care.
The best idea right now, would be the one Switzerland has, since they had a system like ours is now, and after 10 years have been very successfull with the drastic change they made to their health care system. Even those that were strongly apposed to the change, now a decade later, say they would never want to return to the way it was.
I know several surgeons who came here from Canada, and have read a lot of discussion about the subject. Americans would not like either the Canadian or British system of medicine. The main reason is access. Yes, it's there for everyone, but the wait for treatment is sometimes unbearable. If you need a total joint replacement it can be 6 months to a year or more before you can get it scheduled. That's after you wait 6 months to get a referral in the first place. Americans would have big trouble accepting this. If you have plenty of money you can get expedient care in both countries. There is more to this stuff than many realize.
My friends from Canada tell me they would never give up their Canadian citizenship because of the healthcare program.
That includes Canadians living here, and snow birds spending the winter in Florida as well.
My friends from Canada tell me they would never give up their Canadian citizenship because of the healthcare program.
That includes some of them living here, and snow birds spending the winter in Florida as well.
A few of them have said they are glad they're living in the USA now, but admitted that the Canadian system is good in some respects but not in others.
I've not had anyone who suffered serious illness tell me anything good about the American healthcare "system."
Well, except people from 3rd world countries where everything is subpar anyway.
n2ize
06-26-2008, 07:05 PM
I know several surgeons who came here from Canada, and have read a lot of discussion about the subject. Americans would not like either the Canadian or British system of medicine. The main reason is access. Yes, it's there for everyone, but the wait for treatment is sometimes unbearable. If you need a total joint replacement it can be 6 months to a year or more before you can get it scheduled. That's after you wait 6 months to get a referral in the first place. Americans would have big trouble accepting this. If you have plenty of money you can get expedient care in both countries. There is more to this stuff than many realize.
True, there have been problems with waiting periods however, critical or emergency surgeries are performed immediatly.
Here in the US we have a more abundant healthcare infrastructure and even if there are drawbacks to the Canadian system there is no reason why our health care system would have to inherit the same drawbacks.
AC4BB
06-26-2008, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=n2ize;1263947]Actually most Canadians I have talked to won't trade their health care system for ours.
Qustion: ? If Canadians prefer their health Care system to ours then why, do tens of Thousands of them flock across the border every year to seek medical care in America, and are willing to pay for it.?? Doesn't hold water.
[QUOTE=n2ize;1263947]Actually most Canadians I have talked to won't trade their health care system for ours.
Qustion: ? If Canadians prefer their health Care system to ours then why, do tens of Thousands of them flock across the border every year to seek medical care in America, and are willing to pay for it.?? Doesn't hold water.
Because the rich will usually pay a premium to jump ahead of the line.
KD5ZPG
06-26-2008, 07:35 PM
My former employer(Canadian citizen) lost his wife to cervical cancer two years ago.
Because of her family history she had been getting regular screenings.......then a new doctor was assigned and said the screenings were not necessary. My employer firmly believes they stopped so save money due to socialized medicine constraints.
The next test was done when she showed symptoms but it was too late......stage 3 or 4.
Being very wealthy he brought her to the US.........spent hundreds of thousands of dollars here in the States on the very best care that money could buy.......she hung on for 7 years but finally succumb to the diesese.
This man is soooo bitter now because it was preventable........I wonder how often this happens???.
Let's modify this to an American story.
My former employer(American citizen) lost his wife to cervical cancer two years ago.
Because of her family history she had been getting regular screenings.......then her employer changed insurers and a new doctor was assigned by the insurance company and said the screenings were not necessary. My employer firmly believes they stopped so save money due to the change in insurers.
The next test was done when she showed symptoms but it was too late......stage 3 or 4.
And let's modify it to the "Average" American versus just the wealthy.
Being not very wealthy he took out a second mortgage on his home....years of equity just gone down the drain.....ran up his credit cards on medical bills too......spent hundreds of thousands of dollars here in the States on the very best care that money could buy.......she hung on for 7 years but finally succumb to the disease. Ended up going into foreclosure too because he couldn't keep up with the mortgage payments. Lost his house AND lost his wife.
This man is soooo bitter now because it was preventable........I wonder how often this happens???.
Happens in the states too, with capitalist medicine. The difference is that many would have not gotten as far as she did, becuse they simply can't afford treatment, or are cheated by their insurance companies.
KD5ZPG
06-26-2008, 07:49 PM
Hummmm...............so for the good of the few.........all should be restricted to the mediocre.
No thank you............
n2ize
06-26-2008, 08:17 PM
Hummmm...............so for the good of the few.........all should be restricted to the mediocre.
No thank you............
And that is how our present system works. For the good of the few millions of Americans go without quality affordable health care.
Yes, indeed you can find horror stories when you analyse any health care system. Including multitudes of horror stories with regards to our own profit driven system.
Furthermore, even if Canada does have it's problems part and present it does not mean we would have to inherit their problems. Many countries have excellent national health care available with no waiting times, excellent care, a wide selection of physicians and hospitals, and best of all, everyone is covered, regardless of your economic status.
But breath easy. We won't be getting national health care in this country anytime soon because over here tyhe purpose of health care is to make a lot of money, not to make people healthy. Besides. a health care system that is designed from the ground upward to work for the people is communism. Better people get sick and die or have to sell their homes.
N4VGB
06-26-2008, 11:00 PM
[QUOTE=n2ize;1263947]Actually most Canadians I have talked to won't trade their health care system for ours.
Qustion: ? If Canadians prefer their health Care system to ours then why, do tens of Thousands of them flock across the border every year to seek medical care in America, and are willing to pay for it.?? Doesn't hold water.
The Canadian system is great for emergency room type situations only. During a period when my former employer opened the door for Canadian employees to transfer to the U.S., a huge number did so. The ones that took positions locally were stunned at Hillary Clinton holding their former healthcare system up as the model of socialized medicine that Americans should aspire to obtain. Those who had lived close to the U.S. border had crossed it regularly and at their own expense to obtain medical care in the U.S. There are no choices offered in Canada. Don't like the doctor you're assigned to see or the treatment he prescribes, tough luck.
But all the Canadian doctors also operate their own private facilities that you can go to on your own dollar!? How the hell could they operate successful private facilities if the free system was working so great!? :eek:
KD5ZPG
06-26-2008, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by KD5ZPG
Hummmm...............so for the good of the few.........all should be restricted to the mediocre.
No thank you............
And that is how our present system works.
Hummmm..............no.
All Americans are not limited to mediocre health care. Capitalism provides the majority of us with the finest health care in the world.
Furthermore, even if Canada does have it's problems part and present it does not mean we would have to inherit their problems.
Hummmmmm.........no again. Their is nothing good about socialism. We do not want to start down that slippery slope. 5000+ years of history, the rise and fall of nations, can show us its faults. We don't need to recreate the wheel.
Canada is struggling under the weight of socialism, so are the countries of Europe.
It is interesting to see other countries starting to climb out of socialism and trying various forms of capitalism. The former USSR states and to some degree India and China to name a few.
N4VGB
06-26-2008, 11:13 PM
Happens in the states too, with capitalist medicine. The difference is that many would have not gotten as far as she did, becuse they simply can't afford treatment, or are cheated by their insurance companies.
OK Ryan. Let me layout a story from my own personal experience. My mom died from cancer and not far from her residence was an old gent that also suffered the same cancer.
The old gent lived in a dump, had nothing but Social Security disability for income. He had an auto paint shop next to his hovel that had formerly provided him with a little income.
My mom had employment and health insurance at the time her cancer made her become disabled and some savings.
Both received the same treatments at the same facilities. My mom on her insurance and money, the old gent totally free on public assistance! Absolutely no difference in treatments received by either! Both died of their cancer.
The American taxpayer is already providing free healtcare to those that can't afford it, the only ones not receiving it are those that don't know how to obtain it. :rolleyes:
VE1IDX
06-26-2008, 11:30 PM
[quote=AC4BB;1264117]
The Canadian system is great for emergency room type situations only. During a period when my former employer opened the door for Canadian employees to transfer to the U.S., a huge number did so. The ones that took positions locally were stunned at Hillary Clinton holding their former healthcare system up as the model of socialized medicine that Americans should aspire to obtain. Those who had lived close to the U.S. border had crossed it regularly and at their own expense to obtain medical care in the U.S. There are no choices offered in Canada. Don't like the doctor you're assigned to see or the treatment he prescribes, tough luck.
But all the Canadian doctors also operate their own private facilities that you can go to on your own dollar!? How the hell could they operate successful private facilities if the free system was working so great!? :eek:
Note the areas in BOLD to which I refer. What do you mean "Don't like the doctor you're assigned to see or the treatment he prescribes, tough luck." Everyone is entitled to a second opinion and that second opinion is as cheap as the first one,FREE.Up here we can see ANY doctor we want to without any insurance company telling us what HMO we HAVE to see.
Also the statement"But all the Canadian doctors also operate their own private facilities that you can go to on your own dollar!? " All I can say is boy have you been misinformed. Most doctors have a private practice,which simply means they take appointments outside of the hospital. Nothing more than that. Those doctor's office visits are FREE as well for everyone. You may have to pay a couple dollars to have certain medical forms filled out for insurance claims etc but that is it. Nothing more is charged.
Trust me. I know this. My wife is a registered nurse at the local hospital and a few of her friends work as nurses in various doctor's offices.
The one thing I LOVE about our system is that I do not have to worry about being told I will not be covered for a serious procedure because my mother's cousins's sister's nephew had the same problem so it was deemed to be a pre-existing hereditary condition that renders my health insurance invalid. :eek:
Why is it that everytime there is an election in the USA people feel the need to discuss OUR health care system? If it was so bad it would not even be considered an option.
K0RGR
06-26-2008, 11:55 PM
Personally, I'd like to see them bring back the "poor farms" in America, so I didn't have to worry about my family starving if my job gets outsourced to India.
So, naturally, the Canadian, British, and most European systems appeal to me.
I also agree that I do not like the systems proposed by Clinton, Obama or McCain. Private insurance has got to get out of the picture, or it just becomes a layer of juicy pork and ongoing theft for the corporations.
N4VGB
06-26-2008, 11:58 PM
Why is it that everytime there is an election in the USA people feel the need to discuss OUR health care system?
Because OUR politicians bring it up! I only know what I've been told by migrant Canadians. :)
I'm sure availability and quality of care varies by location in Canada, just as it does in the U.S.
VE1IDX
06-27-2008, 12:17 AM
Because OUR politicians bring it up! I only know what I've been told by migrant Canadians. :)
I'm sure availability and quality of care varies by location in Canada, just as it does in the U.S.
Actually it probably depends on what wealthy and cantankerous old fart you hear your info from more than anything. ;)
N4VGB
06-27-2008, 12:22 AM
Actually it probably depends on what wealthy and cantankerous old fart you hear your info from more than anything. ;)
OH NO! You Canadians are just like Americans! :D
God Help Us...
Ref: http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges/medicare-and-medicaid/
The Spending Trend is Not Sustainable
Posted on May 21st, 2008 in Budget Deficit, Budget Deficit Charts, Challenges Charts, Gross Domestic Product, Gross Domestic Product Charts, Medicare and Medicaid, Medicare and Medicaid Charts, Social Security, Social Security Charts by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges31-640.png
The term tipping point can be applied to a process in which, beyond a certain point, the rate at which the process continues will increase dramatically. The budget of the United States has reached its tipping point. A recent event could have, in fact, marked the point in time. The first Baby Boomer—born January 1, 1946—has applied for early retirement at age 62 and received her first Social Security check. On the chart, an upturn in the Medicare growth rate can be detected in 2011 when the first Baby Boomers turn 65. Thereafter, the number of retirees continues to increase while the number of workers per retiree continues to decrease. The pyramid scheme has collapsed.
Social Security and Medicare Cash Surpluses and Deficits
Posted on May 21st, 2008 by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges30.png
This is the first, and only, chart in this presentation that is expressed in terms of constant dollars, with a base year of 2008 having been selected. This chart attempts to quantify the size of the commitment that lies ahead with Social Security and Medicare (leaving Medicaid aside for the moment). Using constant dollars removes the inflation factor from the projections thereby bringing some perspective to the numbers. Without this adjustment, the numbers would be far too large to make any sense. The total of the projected deficits—$83 trillion—through the year 2085 averages roughly $1 trillion per year in constant 2008 dollars. Contrast this with the fact that the surplus for the combined programs in 2008 was approximately $69 billion. If the message is not yet clear, it is this…The Spending Trend is not Sustainable.
*Note: Projections based on the intermediate assumptions of the 2008 Trustees’ Reports. The CPI is used to adjust from current to constant dollars.
Projected Growth of Entitlement Programs from 2007 to 2032
Posted on May 21st, 2008 by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges29-640.png
This chart simply selects the data for the year 2032 from the Entitlements as a Percentage of GDP chart and compares the estimated growth in the entitlement programs against the estimated growth of the economy at that point in time. These projections assume that no new programs are added to the existing forms of coverage. Even absent any additional coverage, it is evident that more has been promised than can be delivered under the existing levels of taxation.
The Aging U.S. Population
Posted on May 21st, 2008 by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges27.png
The fact that the population of the United States is aging is no secret. The magnitude of the increase may be surprising, however. The number of individuals over the age of 65 will double in 32 years—from 38 million to 77 million—an additional 39 million people over the age of 65. The total population of California today is 36.5 million. This demographic trend spells trouble for entitlement programs because the ratio of workers to dependents is declining.
Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid Will Consume Larger Percentage of GDP
Posted on May 21st, 2008 by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges26-640.png
The Government Accountability Office prepared the data for this chart using information from the Office of the Chief Actuary of the Social Security Administration, the Office of the Actuary of Medicare and Medicaid Services, and the Congressional Budget Office. The conclusion needs little explanation: Government spending for the big three entitlement programs, as a percentage of GDP, will triple in 70 years, primarily as a result of projected increases in healthcare costs.
Medicare and Medicaid Spending Could Exceed Current Taxation Levels
Posted on May 21st, 2008 by PerotCharts
http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges25-640.png
The problem with the CBO Baseline is that the projection is based upon an assumption that has no historical basis. The assumption is that the growth in health care spending will decline to a growth rate that is 1% greater than GDP growth. In fact, the historical increase in Medicare and Medicaid spending has averaged 2.5 percentage points greater than the growth of GDP over the past 40 years. Using the historical rate of increase, Medicare and Medicaid alone would consume all tax collections by 2044 if the tax rate remained at the 2007 level of GDP (18.8%).
Perot understands what I've been saying all along... God help us.
KP3FT
06-29-2008, 10:58 AM
And that is how our present system works. For the good of the few millions of Americans go without quality affordable health care.
Yes, indeed you can find horror stories when you analyse any health care system. Including multitudes of horror stories with regards to our own profit driven system.
Furthermore, even if Canada does have it's problems part and present it does not mean we would have to inherit their problems. Many countries have excellent national health care available with no waiting times, excellent care, a wide selection of physicians and hospitals, and best of all, everyone is covered, regardless of your economic status.
But breath easy. We won't be getting national health care in this country anytime soon because over here tyhe purpose of health care is to make a lot of money, not to make people healthy. Besides. a health care system that is designed from the ground upward to work for the people is communism. Better people get sick and die or have to sell their homes.
I'd like to add that the U.S. already has "socialist" healthcare. Medicare, Medicaid, veteran's healthcare, government employee healthcare, etc. It's not completely socialist, but quite a few people already benefit from it. We may as well have everyone covered. It's seems a bit strange for government leaders to condemn national healthcare as "socialist", while they receive socialized medicine already thanks to the taxpayers (many of whom have no healthcare). I've personally heard government employees rant on against national healthcare using the usual scary "socialism" excuse, all the while they and their family enjoy their existing socialized healthcare paid for by many Americans who are denied the same.
N4VGB
06-29-2008, 11:10 AM
We may as well have everyone covered.
Perhaps you should look at the charts immediately preceeding your post? I can't believe at this point in time that anyone could possibly believe that Americans can actually afford such a program! :rolleyes:
VK3ZL
06-29-2008, 11:57 AM
[quote=N4VGB;1264392]
Note the areas in BOLD to which I refer. What do you mean "Don't like the doctor you're assigned to see or the treatment he prescribes, tough luck." Everyone is entitled to a second opinion and that second opinion is as cheap as the first one,FREE.Up here we can see ANY doctor we want to without any insurance company telling us what HMO we HAVE to see.
Also the statement"But all the Canadian doctors also operate their own private facilities that you can go to on your own dollar!? " All I can say is boy have you been misinformed. Most doctors have a private practice,which simply means they take appointments outside of the hospital. Nothing more than that. Those doctor's office visits are FREE as well for everyone. You may have to pay a couple dollars to have certain medical forms filled out for insurance claims etc but that is it. Nothing more is charged.
Trust me. I know this. My wife is a registered nurse at the local hospital and a few of her friends work as nurses in various doctor's offices.
The one thing I LOVE about our system is that I do not have to worry about being told I will not be covered for a serious procedure because my mother's cousins's sister's nephew had the same problem so it was deemed to be a pre-existing hereditary condition that renders my health insurance invalid. :eek:
Why is it that everytime there is an election in the USA people feel the need to discuss OUR health care system? If it was so bad it would not even be considered an option.
Interesting read......
In Australia we have had Medicare for many years....As a general rule it operates fairly smoothly..There is a Medicare levy on all taxpayers to cover health care..This is inclusive in our overall income tax....We can pay for extra cover through private medical agencies...This allows for access to private rooms in hospitals etc but over all care is no different....The quality of the eating utensils is probably the biggest advantage..
In this country patients can visit any general practitioner they choose...They are not " assigned " a practitioner....
There can be waiting times for some non urgent treatments but generally the system runs fairly well..
One area which can be of concern is the bogging down of emergency rooms in larger city centers..This is probably a problem world wide..It seems that these centers are used for all complaints from little Johnny skinning his knee to drunks and people who expect attention for the most trivial reason..I have seen many examples of this in major hospitals in Melbourne...Not so here in the country centers..
Major illnesses like cancer,heart disease,hip replacement etc are all covered under the Medicare scheme..Medical prescriptions are generally available to all health care card holders for a $5 dispensing fee..There are some drugs not subsidized by the Government,however this is an exception in most cases..
This system works very well for the majority of Australians and has been supported by governments of both persuasions,conservative and socialist..
There will always be some individual horror story about the system but I guess you can't please some people..
I would guess that most of the opinions on this forum about social medicine in other countries are emotional and uninformed rather than properly researched...Nothing can be perfect but we can strive to " have a go "..
Bob ..VK3ZL....:rolleyes::rolleyes:
N4VGB
06-29-2008, 12:38 PM
This system works very well for the majority of Australians
Who covers the cost of all the malpractice lawsuits in Australia? What is the cost yearly of malpractice insurance in Australia?
If you lose a loved one because of a mistake by a doctor or hospital, who pays the millions of dollars that the family of the departed is so richly entitled to receive?
Or are civil lawsuits not the grand sport that they are in the U.S.?
VK3ZL
06-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Who covers the cost of all the malpractice lawsuits in Australia? What is the cost yearly of malpractice insurance in Australia?
If you lose a loved one because of a mistake by a doctor or hospital, who pays the millions of dollars that the family of the departed is so richly entitled to receive?
Or are civil lawsuits not the grand sport that they are in the U.S.?
Medical practitioners and hospitals are insured for this kind of thing...Premiums are very high too..
Yes civil lawsuits tend to be excessive just like the US....However, human nature with the encouragement of ambulance chaser lawyers seems to be rife all over the world these days..I wonder where that started ? :confused:
Take the good with the bad..You will always have this problem..Nothing's perfect.....:rolleyes:
N4VGB
06-29-2008, 01:48 PM
Medical practitioners and hospitals are insured for this kind of thing...Premiums are very high too..
Yes civil lawsuits tend to be excessive just like the US....However, human nature with the encouragement of ambulance chaser lawyers seems to be rife all over the world these days..I wonder where that started ? :confused:
Take the good with the bad..You will always have this problem..Nothing's perfect.....:rolleyes:
Unfortunately the truth is that we already have far in excess of the public healthcare that we can afford. America features a rather low percentage of true "working class" citizens today. When a nation only has a small percentage of persons paying into all these social programs and a much larger percentage of persons receiving benefits from these programs, the books cannot balance for very long. That is where we stand in America today and none seem willing to face that fact.
Nothing in this world is free, someone always has to pay.
I noticed that your estimated Medicare costs for this year in Australia is $18.3 billion total! That amount wouldn't cover New York City alone here!
I'd like to add that the U.S. already has "socialist" healthcare. Medicare, Medicaid, veteran's healthcare, government employee healthcare, etc. It's not completely socialist, but quite a few people already benefit from it. We may as well have everyone covered. It's seems a bit strange for government leaders to condemn national healthcare as "socialist", while they receive socialized medicine already thanks to the taxpayers (many of whom have no healthcare). I've personally heard government employees rant on against national healthcare using the usual scary "socialism" excuse, all the while they and their family enjoy their existing socialized healthcare paid for by many Americans who are denied the same.
Those government workers, Armed Forces men and women, and retirees EARNED their right to mediocre health care from the Government through SERVICE to our Nation. There are stark differences between a contributing and rightful 'earned' health care entitlement, and that of a 'do or done nothing', desirous, 'unearned' health care entitlement.
Choose your words carefully. :D
KD5ZPG
06-29-2008, 08:14 PM
Perhaps you should look at the charts immediately preceeding your post? I can't believe at this point in time that anyone could possibly believe that Americans can actually afford such a program! :rolleyes:
Yep...............
If you think healthcare is expensive now..........wait till you see how much it costs when it free. :eek::D
VK3ZL
06-29-2008, 09:30 PM
Unfortunately the truth is that we already have far in excess of the public healthcare that we can afford. America features a rather low percentage of true "working class" citizens today. When a nation only has a small percentage of persons paying into all these social programs and a much larger percentage of persons receiving benefits from these programs, the books cannot balance for very long. That is where we stand in America today and none seem willing to face that fact.
Nothing in this world is free, someone always has to pay.
I noticed that your estimated Medicare costs for this year in Australia is $18.3 billion total! That amount wouldn't cover New York City alone here!
Population 21 million......Medicare is still probably a burden on the overall budget..However we still manage to have a budget surplus each year..
As the population percentage ages I guess this will be something to consider in the future..
I know several surgeons who came here from Canada, and have read a lot of discussion about the subject. Americans would not like either the Canadian or British system of medicine. The main reason is access. Yes, it's there for everyone, but the wait for treatment is sometimes unbearable. If you need a total joint replacement it can be 6 months to a year or more before you can get it scheduled. That's after you wait 6 months to get a referral in the first place. Americans would have big trouble accepting this. If you have plenty of money you can get expedient care in both countries. There is more to this stuff than many realize.
More BS from those without a clue.
More BS from those without a clue.
More blather from the turncoat who ran off to the most expensive city in the world, London.
N4VGB
06-30-2008, 05:40 PM
More blather from the turncoat who ran off to the most expensive city in the world, London.
I think Moscow has replaced London now? Crude oil ya know.
I think Moscow has replaced London now? Crude oil ya know.
London, New York and Moscow are the world’s most expensive cities for residential apartment buyers.
Residential apartments or flats in Prime Central London are among the priciest in the world, at US$21,800 to US$36,200 (£10,960 - £18,214 or €16,305 - €27,095) per sq. m. Prime central London include Belgravia, Chelsea, Mayfair, Notting Hill, Knightsbridge, Regent's Park, South Kensington, St. John's Woods, and St. James.
Prices in other luxurious areas in London such as Wimbledon, Hampstead, Richmond, and Wandsworth range from US$14,142 to US$19,361 (£8,675 - £9,719 or €10,560 - €14,458) per sq. m., also among the highest in the world.
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/assets/img/IC-33-I01.gif
Ref: http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/investment-analysis/Most-expensive-cities-in-2008
N4VGB
06-30-2008, 05:56 PM
London, New York and Moscow are the world’s most expensive cities for residential apartment buyers.
Yeah but in overall cost of living I think London is down on the latest lists. Anyway, let the sardines live in their cans. I like to urinate in the yard at will and with no fear of being seen.
I like to urinate in the yard at will and with no fear of being seen.
Same here, and I can... :D:cool:
[quote=AC4BB;1264117]
But all the Canadian doctors also operate their own private facilities that you can go to on your own dollar!? How the hell could they operate successful private facilities if the free system was working so great!? :eek:
I see you have no understanding yet are willing to expound like you know something eh.
It's government health insurance. You know, health insurance?
The doctors submit their bills (private doctors in private practice) and get paid without the hassle and denials of claims that US doctors get.
Same as here in the UK.
Get it? Of course you don't.
More blather from the turncoat who ran off to the most expensive city in the world, London.
Yet I do know what you are pretending to know about.
Funny how that seems to be the way of it eh? Me knowing and you blathering?
BTW - I see the dollars tanked again, excellent news for me.
Keep up the good work!
Yeah but in overall cost of living I think London is down on the latest lists. Anyway, let the sardines live in their cans. I like to urinate in the yard at will and with no fear of being seen.
How soon you forget, I have a 2000 square foot can 6 miles from city center with a 100x50 foot back yard right next to 65 acres of perfectly manicured park land. And Stevie, I get it cheaper than here than I would have there.
Look up Greenwich Park/Blackheath sometime, that's just half a block away from my front door.
Try not to pee on yourselves there boys.
Same here, and I can... :D:cool:
Oh, same here but I'm not a pig. My toilet works fine.
kv1m, so you are going to tell me that 32 years in the medical field, helping do over 30,000 surgical procedures, working in about 5 clinics for Neurosurgeons, Orthopaedists (2 from Canada, Toronto to be exact), 20 years of billing experience and experience with ICD-9 and CPT codes, doesn't qualify my comments?
I am not one to argue with folks who disagree with me, in fact, I encourage it. I learn more from those with whom I disagree anyway. I don't mind the criticism at all, but anyone can call someone a boob. I love boobs, but am not one, not at all. The Surgeons I worked personally for were from programs like Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, the University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Baylor School of Medicine, LSU and Oschner Clinic, Oklahoma, Stanford, UCLA, etc. Many of these guys were chief senior residents (the best of the residents).
Well, maybe I am a boob, but at least I'm not a fool. What really gets me is that there is no rational reasoning for ANY of your comments. You don't wanna debate me, buddy...I'll chew you up and spit you out.
kv1m, so you are going to tell me that 32 years in the medical field, helping do over 30,000 surgical procedures, working in about 5 clinics for Neurosurgeons, Orthopaedists (2 from Canada, Toronto to be exact), 20 years of billing experience and experience with ICD-9 and CPT codes, doesn't qualify my comments?
I am not one to argue with folks who disagree with me, in fact, I encourage it. I learn more from those with whom I disagree anyway. I don't mind the criticism at all, but anyone can call someone a boob. I love boobs, but am not one, not at all. The Surgeons I worked personally for were from programs like Yale, Harvard, Columbia, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, the University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Tennessee, Baylor School of Medicine, LSU and Oschner Clinic, Oklahoma, Stanford, UCLA, etc. Many of these guys were chief senior residents (the best of the residents).
Well, maybe I am a boob, but at least I'm not a fool. What really gets me is that there is no rational reasoning for ANY of your comments. You don't wanna debate me, buddy...I'll chew you up and spit you out.
Yup, that's EXACTLY what I'm gonna tell ya.
Who cares what a US resident has to say about Canadian health care, like you'd even know.
A fool is just what you are if you believe any of what you're pushing.
Oh, same here but I'm not a pig. My toilet works fine.
So do mine... all three full baths in my 5 bedroom home. Yet, I have the ability to be the bear in the woods, even my backyard Alaskan woods -- in privacy. I have the legal right to ride off my acres with a horse, snow-machine, ATV, or dirt bike without having to worry about law coming down on me. I could get on a snow-machine and never leave trails till I reached the Mt. McKinley area 150 miles north.
We're far less anal retentive and restrictive up here... :D Though they're hungry for ever repressive control here, the disparate Libs here haven't taken all fun and rights away -- yet. ;) Long live motorized sports in Alaska! :)
W4DFW
06-30-2008, 10:37 PM
Yup, that's EXACTLY what I'm gonna tell ya.
Who cares what a US resident has to say about Canadian health care, like you'd even know.
A fool is just what you are if you believe any of what you're pushing.
Having treated a few Canadians down visiting here in the US a time or two, I can tell you that YOU sir, have no IDEA what you are talking about. Detroit does a FINE business for many medical procedures precisely 'cuz the Canadians can come across the border and get their procedures in a timely fashion, rather than waiting for eternity back home.
I cared for MANY Canadians who chose to have elective procedures and the such precisely because they could timely get them while they visited Florida for the winter, AND they were willing to pay for it!! Many couldn't even do that back home in Canada for some reason or another.
What is your experience in treating patients? Huh, Doc?? :confused:
n2ize
06-30-2008, 10:51 PM
The real acid test of national health care versus our health care system would be to take a poll in various countries which have national health care, which is pretty much everywhere outside of the USA, and ask those people if they would be willing to trade their health care system for ours. Then compare the numbers.
If my guess is correct most would opt to keep their health care system. Most Canadians, British and French who I have asked if they would like to switch to our system have said "DEFINATELY NOT".
Likewise, since our system is so superior and theirs is so terribly inferior I am surprised more people in foreign countries are not fighting to get their health care system switched to something like ours. It seems there are far more Americans who would prefer to switch to the European health care model than Europeans who would want to switch to the American health care model.
k4kyv
06-30-2008, 11:12 PM
Yeah but in overall cost of living I think London is down on the latest lists. Anyway, let the sardines live in their cans. I like to urinate in the yard at will and with no fear of being seen.
But if someone does happen to see you, you may still be arrested for pubic urination, and if convicted, you will have to register as a sex-offender, which means a lifetime probation. If someone decides to build a school or private day-care near your home (or in GA, even post a school-bus stop sign), you will be required to move out of your home at your own expense and move elsewhere, if you can find a habitable place that lies outside of the restricted zones.
N4VGB
06-30-2008, 11:51 PM
But if someone does happen to see you, you may still be arrested for pubic urination, and if convicted, you will have to register as a sex-offender, which means a lifetime probation. If someone decides to build a school or private day-care near your home (or in GA, even post a school-bus stop sign), you will be required to move out of your home at your own expense and move elsewhere, if you can find a habitable place that lies outside of the restricted zones.
Ah come on Don, we're in TN not one of the left wing loony states. If you've got enough land and have it properly posted with the required number of signs spaced properly and have it registered at your county courthouse as required to be legal, then someone would have to commit a criminal trespass to get close enough to testify about anything they've seen. So the evidence against you for urinating on your own property would be thrown out of court because it was illegally obtained. Case closed but the other party is still guilty of criminal trespass by their own sworn statement!
Remeber that anything you see looking via binoculars or a telescope won't hold water in TN court either, unless it involves a real felony like murder, etc.
W4DFW
07-01-2008, 01:11 AM
Likewise, since our system is so superior and theirs is so terribly inferior I am surprised more people in foreign countries are not fighting to get their health care system switched to something like ours. It seems there are far more Americans who would prefer to switch to the European health care model than Europeans who would want to switch to the American health care model.
I guess you missed the part about Sen. Kennedy getting his treatment here in the USA. Last time I looked, he wasn't off to Europe or anywhere else to get his treatment.
I know of MANY foreign folks who have come to American PRECISELY because they can get better care here.
If you don't remember, Hitlery's "health care" program failed miserably in part because Americans want the best care but have NO INTENTION of paying higher taxes so others can get it.
I bet you didn't volunteer to pay extra taxes this past year, did 'ya?? Indeed, I'm a little concerned that more Democrats don't volunteer to pay extra taxes every year. What's up with that, anyhoo??? :confused:
n2ize
07-01-2008, 02:47 AM
I guess you missed the part about Sen. Kennedy getting his treatment here in the USA. Last time I looked, he wasn't off to Europe or anywhere else to get his treatment.
I know of MANY foreign folks who have come to American PRECISELY because they can get better care here.
If you don't remember, Hitlery's "health care" program failed miserably in part because Americans want the best care but have NO INTENTION of paying higher taxes so others can get it.
I bet you didn't volunteer to pay extra taxes this past year, did 'ya?? Indeed, I'm a little concerned that more Democrats don't volunteer to pay extra taxes every year. What's up with that, anyhoo??? :confused:
Yeah, but you still have plenty of people who are not insured and plenty of patients and doctors who are screwed over by the insurance racket which essentially runs the medical care system over here.
And tyhere are plenty of Americans who leave the US to seek medical care elsewhere where they are not victimized by the insurange rackets.
But to heck wirth what I have to say. The proof is in the asking. Set up a worldwide poll and ask Europeans if the would like to give up their lousy health care system for our magnificent one. It would be interesting to see how it turns out. If it's anything like what I suspect most of them will say NO.
But to heck wirth what I have to say. The proof is in the asking. Set up a worldwide poll and ask Europeans if the would like to give up their lousy health care system for our magnificent one. It would be interesting to see how it turns out. If it's anything like what I suspect most of them will say NO.
If you are so big on the EU system catch a plane. Who cares what they think.
k4kyv
07-01-2008, 03:20 AM
Yep...............
If you think healthcare is expensive now..........wait till you see how much it costs when it free. :eek::D
Well, in the US, per capita medical care expenditures are already almost double what they are in Canada, France or UK.
In Canada, medical care is not socialised. Medical insurance is. Yes, the Medicare premium is added on top of your income tax bill. But that tax premium replaces that big hunk that is taken out of your pay every month in the US for private corporate insurance, if you are fortunate enough to even have employer-provided medical insurance.
W4DFW
07-01-2008, 03:42 AM
The proof is in the asking. Set up a worldwide poll and ask Europeans if the would like to give up their lousy health care system for our magnificent one. It would be interesting to see how it turns out. If it's anything like what I suspect most of them will say NO.
Why IZE, I never knew you were such a strong advocate for the free election process where every vote counts. You can imagine how reading your message has assuaged my discontent over Democrats wailing that the last two Presidential elections (where Bush beat the best the Dems could offer) were somehow stolen.
I tell you what.
Let's ask all Americans if they are willing to give up their country and move to Europe! I mean, since EVERYTHING is SOOOOOO much better over "there," I have to wonder why SOOOO many come to this country ILLEGALLY and there aren't too many boat people leaving Miami for Cuba, but the other way around.
Nevertheless, you go on pounding the desk about how much better those enlightened Europeans have it and we'll all sit back and wait to see how quick you are to move there. Mind you, I love Europe! Nice place to visit!! Been there many times!!
Are you planning on moving soon?? Can I have your HF rig before you go??
Hey . . . just askin' . . . . ;)
Why IZE, I never knew you were such a strong advocate for the free election process where every vote counts. You can imagine how reading your message has assuaged my discontent over Democrats wailing that the last two Presidential elections (where Bush beat the best the Dems could offer) were somehow stolen.
I tell you what.
Let's ask all Americans if they are willing to give up their country and move to Europe! I mean, since EVERYTHING is SOOOOOO much better over "there," I have to wonder why SOOOO many come to this country ILLEGALLY and there aren't too many boat people leaving Miami for Cuba, but the other way around.
Nevertheless, you go on pounding the desk about how much better those enlightened Europeans have it and we'll all sit back and wait to see how quick you are to move there. Mind you, I love Europe! Nice place to visit!! Been there many times!!
Are you planning on moving soon?? Can I have your HF rig before you go??
Hey . . . just askin' . . . . ;)
Supposedly, Johnny Boy has a French girlfriend who really likes it "over here". I've asked him many times when he'll decide to high tale it over there, in-tow, for good. Perhaps, he and kv1m can qso on 75M when he moves?
Time will tell... but I firmly believe cloistered Johnny will never leave NYC -- all else is too frightening. ;)
73.
W4DFW
07-01-2008, 03:49 AM
But that tax premium replaces that big hunk that is taken out of your pay every month in the US for private corporate insurance, if you are fortunate enough to even have employer-provided medical insurance.
So you'd rather give your money away to the Guv'ment!!???!!!???
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....................
Pay your buck for private insurance?? - or pay the Guv'ment??
Pretty much a no-brainer if you ask me. Unless, of course, you feel Medicare and the VA system, both run by the government, are TOP NOTCH programs providing the best health care money can buy! (just WHO reading this wants a 10 percent pay cut? THAT'S what Congress is doing to Docs treating Medicare patients, unless it's fixed quick!)
Guv'ment run medicine . . . you just gotta love it!! NOT!!!!
n2ize
07-01-2008, 03:53 AM
Why IZE, I never knew you were such a strong advocate for the free election process where every vote counts. You can imagine how reading your message has assuaged my discontent over Democrats wailing that the last two Presidential elections (where Bush beat the best the Dems could offer) were somehow stolen.
I tell you what.
Let's ask all Americans if they are willing to give up their country and move to Europe! I mean, since EVERYTHING is SOOOOOO much better over "there," I have to wonder why SOOOO many come to this country ILLEGALLY and there aren't too many boat people leaving Miami for Cuba, but the other way around.
Nevertheless, you go on pounding the desk about how much better those enlightened Europeans have it
The Europeans have it better ? All I said is put your money where your mouth is, either the upside or down side, and find out how many European's would like to shake their horrendously lousy health care system and adopt our wonderful health care system. When you're finished counting post the results.
and we'll all sit back and wait to see how quick you are to move there. Mind you, I love Europe! Nice place to visit!! Been there many times!!
Actually yes, I very well may if a job offering comes my way. And yes, in my profession they do come up.
Are you planning on moving soon?? Can I have your HF rig before you go??
Hey . . . just askin' . . . . ;)
If you don't mind 1000 pounds worth of vacuum tubes and heavy iron.
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 03:53 AM
Well, in the US, per capita medical care expenditures are already almost double what they are in Canada, France or UK.
In Canada, medical care is not socialised. Medical insurance is. Yes, the Medicare premium is added on top of your income tax bill. But that tax premium replaces that big hunk that is taken out of your pay every month in the US for private corporate insurance, if you are fortunate enough to even have employer-provided medical insurance.
In the U.S. doctors order far more scans and tests than are done in most other countries. Far more people in the U.S. visit facilities and doctors than in those other countries. The expenditures are higher because of more visits and more tests done.
One poster here from Australia posted about their healthcare system. 22 million people in Australia and only $18.3 billion AUD in Australian Medicare expenditures for the entire year!!! My personal yearly costs just from my normally scheduled visits and tests is far more than Australians spend per capita. My costs are paid by my former employer and my insurance is free for the rest of my life.
But if you people want to pay all my costs, that's fine with me! I can easily arrange for my income to show up as being very moderate and you can pay my healthcare bills! :)
Dead Meat is a 25 minute short film which shows the reality of health care under Canada's socialized medical system: Canadians wait ... and wait ... and wait. ... And sometimes they die while waiting for free government health care.
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/deadmeat.html
Shocking...
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 04:29 AM
Dead Meat is a 25 minute short film which shows the reality of health care under Canada's socialized medical system: Canadians wait ... and wait ... and wait. ... And sometimes they die while waiting for free government health care.
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/deadmeat.html
Shocking...
BUT, BUT, BUT this can't be!? Everything is so perfect in other countries! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D
BUT, BUT, BUT this can't be!? Everything is so perfect in other countries! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D
Yeah... just like they're so perfect here! :rolleyes: You cannot legislate better health care through inefficient, wasteful, abusive -- and rationed -- Big Giv'ment practices. Canadian health care programs, and their oh so special stories, tell us this... :eek:
VK3ZL
07-01-2008, 09:36 AM
In the U.S. doctors order far more scans and tests than are done in most other countries. Far more people in the U.S. visit facilities and doctors than in those other countries. The expenditures are higher because of more visits and more tests done.
One poster here from Australia posted about their healthcare system. 22 million people in Australia and only $18.3 billion AUD in Australian Medicare expenditures for the entire year!!! My personal yearly costs just from my normally scheduled visits and tests is far more than Australians spend per capita. My costs are paid by my former employer and my insurance is free for the rest of my life.
But if you people want to pay all my costs, that's fine with me! I can easily arrange for my income to show up as being very moderate and you can pay my healthcare bills! :)
Maybe Australians are more robust and healthy and have less need for running up needless medical costs... :D :D...Guess we aren't all hypochondriacs.........:)
That would be all the fresh air and sunshine down under......
If you don't remember, Hitlery's "health care" program failed miserably in part because Americans want the best care but have NO INTENTION of paying higher taxes so others can get it.
Nice try, her health scam was just a national rehash of a Republican scam run on the voters of MA by Mitt.
And to correct your misrepresentation of it it cost the tax payer zilch.
What it did do was make it a fine-able offense NOT to buy insurance, you would lose your tax return (as Romney did to MA).
She was pushing a Republican plan, funny eh?
Having treated a few Canadians down visiting here in the US a time or two, I can tell you that YOU sir, have no IDEA what you are talking about. Detroit does a FINE business for many medical procedures precisely 'cuz the Canadians can come across the border and get their procedures in a timely fashion, rather than waiting for eternity back home.
I cared for MANY Canadians who chose to have elective procedures and the such precisely because they could timely get them while they visited Florida for the winter, AND they were willing to pay for it!! Many couldn't even do that back home in Canada for some reason or another.
What is your experience in treating patients? Huh, Doc?? :confused:
I know plenty of Canadian doctors in MA who tell me they are appaled by the US system and are heading home.
That a few malcontents come down for what is more than likely specialized treatments is not indicitaive of the whole. Far more Canadians use their medical system than cross the border to be raped by yours. That is fact.
And I have yet to find even one Englishmen who would trade health care with you. Not even one. And I have asked pretty much everyone I've exchanged more than 3 words wioth that question. They also are not even remotely interested in moving there. Neither are the French, Belgians, Nederlanders, Italians, Germans, or Danes I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting. The Norwegian I spoke with looked at me like I was nuts and asked, qoute, "Why would I ever do something as silly as move to that place?". Why indeed.
But that's OK doc, you got your vested interest in making sure real reform never happens in the US. I understand that, really I do.
I think you are a scum bag for it (among other things) but I do understand your stake in making sure you can gouge top dollar from your clients in perpetuity.
I know plenty of Canadian doctors in MA who tell me they are appaled by the US system and are heading home.
That a few malcontents come down for what is more than likely specialized treatments is not indicitaive of the whole. Far more Canadians use their medical system than cross the border to be raped by yours. That is fact.
And I have yet to find even one Englishmen who would trade health care with you. Not even one. And I have asked pretty much everyone I've exchanged more than 3 words wioth that question. They also are not even remotely interested in moving there. Neither are the French, Belgians, Nederlanders, Italians, Germans, or Danes I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting. The Norwegian I spoke with looked at me like I was nuts and asked, qoute, "Why would I ever do something as silly as move to that place?". Why indeed.
But that's OK doc, you got your vested interest in making sure real reform never happens in the US. I understand that, really I do.
I think you are a scum bag for it (among other things) but I do understand your stake in making sure you can gouge top dollar from your clients in perpetuity.
You know, you know... We don't really care to hear your conjecture!
Present something tangible, Toddles!
I'll offer these:
- Dead Meat is a 25 minute short film which shows the reality of health care under Canada's socialized medical system: Canadians wait ... and wait ... and wait. ... And sometimes they die while waiting for free government health care.
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video.../deadmeat.html
- Post #22.
- U.K.'s Rotten Teeth: Many 'cannot get NHS dental care' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7041291.stm)
- What BS: Doctors' leader hits out at 'inhumane' NHS care rules (http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Doctors39-leader-hits-out-at.4237650.jp)
- Quality Problems... ya think? The NHS: World Class Care Costs
Lord Darzi has some good ideas, but the Government has no good ideas for how to pay for them (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4244725.ece)
Care to debate these, Toddles? Let's see what you've got... bring on ur 'facts'.
This is but just a start concerning such nationalized 'giv'mint run' and rationed health care -- lowering standards and availability for everyone.
Toodles.
ab1ga
07-01-2008, 07:36 PM
Nice try, her health scam was just a national rehash of a Republican scam run on the voters of MA by Mitt.
And to correct your misrepresentation of it it cost the tax payer zilch.
What it did do was make it a fine-able offense NOT to buy insurance, you would lose your tax return (as Romney did to MA).
She was pushing a Republican plan, funny eh?
It's inaccurate to call the Massachusetts experiment a Republican idea, and I believe Mr. Romney claims too much credit for it. It was Governor Celucci who, in the face of mounting health care costs, convened the Task Force which analyzed health care in the state and presented its recommendations. Romney was by then governor and was not enthusiastic about the plan, but after some horse trading and arm twisting, the bill was passed by a Democratic State House and signed into law by a Republican governor, and all sides proclaimed victory.
The idea of transferring emergency room costs to primary care also has clear liberal pedigree. Paul Krugman, the Princeton economist and NY Times columnist, is nobody's conservative, yet has on multiple occasions claimed that cost savings could be realized by providing health insurance to currently uninsured citizens. The major difference between Krugman's model and the Massachusetts model is that Krugman's model would create "Medicare for All", and the Massachusetts plan keeps the health insurance industry in place to continue providing its services as before.
n2ize
07-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Interesting. More and more Americans seek life saving health care abroad, in countries like India, Thailand, etc. Meanwhile, the myth that foregners are flocking to the USA for health care is just that...a myth.
Of course, since our health care system is so superb how can that be ?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/18/health/webmd/main2104425.shtml
ab1ga
07-01-2008, 07:59 PM
The real acid test of national health care versus our health care system would be to take a poll in various countries which have national health care, which is pretty much everywhere outside of the USA, and ask those people if they would be willing to trade their health care system for ours. Then compare the numbers.
I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with your approach here, 'IZE, because it doesn't adequately address the cost side of the decision. People will always grab the goods first and complain about the costs afterwards.
And, heartless as it may seem, it isn't axiomatically in the government's interest to concern itself with health care; as long as public health is good enough to provide soldiers for wars and to prevent riots and panics, what's to worry? And it's a lot easier to get folks worked up about secret terrorists smuggling in nuclear weapons and obliterating Topeka than it is to tell them to get a colonoscopy. Fact is, people don't worry about their health until they get sick. That's why Mitt Romney emphasized participation in the Massachusetts program as a matter of taking personal responsibility.
It won't be enough to ask which option people prefer. For a health care system to work, there has to be public confidence that the benefits received are worth the costs, and that's going to be hard to pull off unless there is widespread perception that health care is a public good worthy of funding like defense, farm support, highways, education, and a bunch of other stuff.
Interesting. More and more Americans seek life saving health care abroad, in countries like India, Thailand, etc. Meanwhile, the myth that foreigners are flocking to the USA for health care is just that...a myth.
Of course, since our health care system is so superb how can that be ?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/18/health/webmd/main2104425.shtml
Cost is always an issue. That's why I have wonderful health insurance... great insurance I pay a good amount for these days. Why do I pay for the best plan available to me? For without it, a medical calamity would break my family financially.
Case in point: my second son, Joey, endured a rough birth in 2001. A prolapsed cord caused hypoxia for upwards of thirty minutes. An emergency c-section brought him into the world -- dead. They had to revive him. Less than 48 hours later, his eyes were rolling back in his head -- not good -- signs of brain damage. He eventually ended up in one of the best neo-natal intensive care units in the country for upwards of two weeks -- where the unit ran all kinds of tests -- CAT scans, EKG's, MRI's, blood work, etc. Miraculously, he rebounded and escaped from the hospital unscathed -- a normal and healthy infant. This rough birth totaled around $100,000.00. My shared cost ended up being around 6,500.00! I thank God for our miracle child -- a normal and extremely healthy and smart boy today. I also thank God for the wonderful insurance and right choices I made, and make today. :)
Americans have choices not available to folks in other countries. If they wish to go overseas -- fine. It's their business. Meanwhile, a myriad of health care choices are available right here in the United States -- more than any other Nation on Earth. Given these choices and options, I really wonder how right-minded Americans feel they have to go abroad for treatment of any kind.
Wow, another sucker who thinks that insurance will save the day.
The real acid test of national health care versus our health care system would be to take a poll in various countries which have national health care, which is pretty much everywhere outside of the USA, and ask those people if they would be willing to trade their health care system for ours. Then compare the numbers.
Of course, it's hard to poll the seriously debilitated and the deceased.
I'm sure that on the whole, Canadian and British Docs are about as good as anywhere else. I used to be a member of a message board on Depression that had many people from both England and Canada. They ALL were very unhappy about how hard is was to access their Psychiatrists because even if you were an established patient, you still had to have a referral, which could literally be 3 to 6 months in the future. What good does that do if you'd taken a sharp downturn, as people sometimes do in Psychiatric diseases, and are suicidial NOW, or if you need therapy NOW. Many believe that psychiatric disease is not disease at all, but that's not what today's Medicine says. Unfortunately, many Docs are getting up there in age, and haven't kept up with anything much other than the continuing education of their specialty. General Practioners, or Family Docs, can often be way too slow in referring people to the Specialists above them, regardless of the disease. They want to treat them. As Docs often have extra-large Egos, they make mistakes like regular people, whether they want to admit it or not.
We have become the victims of the technological advances in medicine in the last 40 years. We have all this great stuff, and if we don't use them, some Lawyer comes in with malpractice on their mind because the Doc didn't do what we called a "Cadillac Workup" on patient x, y, or z. At that point the Insurance companies are getting pissed off, and the Docs are getting pissed off because non-medical people are trying to tell them how to treat their patients. Then you're looking at charges from the Radiologist, the Lab, the Internal Medicine Doc, the Anesthesiologist, the Pharmacy (You should see how much the Lipitor you take at a dollar a pill costs when it comes to you as an inpatient from the Hospital Pharmacy...not only will you be stunned, you'll be incredibly angry.)
CT, MRI, MRA, PET, arteriograms, multiple x-rays of all kinds, expensive lab tests, costly procedures (surgical and non-surgical), cardio exams. Knowing what your heart bypass cost might make you wish you'd have taken the OTHER route. It's said that more is spent in the last month of life than all previous months and years of life. There are lots of Devils in these details, and the logistics of making it work out are stupendous. I've gotta stop or I'll be here until sunset. More later.
Wow, another sucker who thinks that insurance will save the day.
For me, right choices did save the day. And, my story about my second son is PROOF of God's miracles. For based on what my son went through, given his long hypoxia, dead delivery, and unexplained brain damage reversal, all of the doctors involved at both the delivery and NICU hospitals, to include follow-up care pediatricians, say he should have suffered from numerous maladies -- the odds were so stacked against him.
I did not used to believe in modern day miracles. I do now -- God touched my newborn 7 years ago. God has plans for my second son... :D
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 08:32 PM
Maybe Australians are more robust and healthy and have less need for running up needless medical costs... :D :D...Guess we aren't all hypochondriacs.........:)
That would be all the fresh air and sunshine down under......
Well staying out in the fresh air and sunshine got me multiple skin cancers. Luckily they've all been basal cell carcinoma which only require a good surgeon to handle, but cause me to look a bit like a lump of Swiss Cheese. Heart, lung, liver and kidney problems also. :eek:
The cost of my normal round of 7 pills and 3 inhalers daily, plus carrying a nitro lingual spray for the angina and also oxygen that is needed for very much physical exertion, far exceed the costs covered in any of the nationalized healthcare plans that I've seen. ;)
Americans seem totally unaware of just how many of their fellow citizens are in just as bad physical condition as I and many much worse. The costs of SS medical and disability, Medicare, Medicaid and the totally free care offered via our public funded facilities is already staggering here. Already consuming a huge chunk of our GDP. ;)
Either Australian hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc. work for ditch digger pay and medical equipment and supplies are dirt cheap also, or you're just not receiving the same high level of medical care that Americans demand and enjoy. Ambulances and EMTs stationed very near most here locally and 2 air ambulance helicopters for my low population density area alone. :)
I just don't see Australians enjoying a great free healthcare program on a per capita Medicare spending of $850AUD which is currently $810USD!? While independent charts show Australian per capita cost at $2,886 in 2003 and the U.S. at $5,711 for the same year. So if Australian Medicare covers all costs totally, where did the extra $2,000 per capita of costs come from in 2003? :confused:
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Wow, another sucker who thinks that insurance will save the day.
It has for me and my annual healthcare costs would scare you to death Ryan. :)
It has for me and my annual healthcare costs would scare you to death Ryan. :)
Young Ryan and his wife deplore having to pay for health insurance at their point in life, late twenties/early thirties, when they think it's not needed. That's all it is. :D
Young Ryan and his wife deplore having to pay for health insurance at their point in life, late twenties/early thirties, when they think it's not needed. That's all it is. :D
And old stevie makes ASSumptions.
FYI, my wife is a NYC employee (meaning she works for the city gov) and because of that and the union contract we pay ZERO in health insurance premiums.
Zip, zilch, nada. Benefits are better than what my job in the private sector at a multinational corporation offers, so I just use hers.
Benefits also carry after retirement.
But nice try as always Toodles.
It has for me and my annual healthcare costs would scare you to death Ryan. :)
Just wait for the day your insurer deems you unprofitable. The choice between paying a claim and a wrongful death suit all boils down to dollars and cents, and when bean counters make the decision, you can be sure that it will NOT be in your favor.
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 09:54 PM
FYI, my wife is a NYC employee (meaning she works for the city gov) and because of that and the union contract we pay ZERO in health insurance premiums.
Zip, zilch, nada. Benefits are better than what my job in the private sector at a multinational corporation offers, so I just use hers.
Benefits also carry after retirement.
Are you aware that under previously presented Dumbocrat healthcare plans that the free coverage that many of us enjoy would be gone?
Yes Ryan, under the plan presented to Congress by Hillary Clinton my employer would have had the right to throw all employees into the national healthcare program and save themselves tons of dollars. Employees would have been forced to pay their own national healthcare costs.
If that appeals to you, vote for Obama. That is one of the reasons that most major corporations will be supporting Obama during this election.
N4VGB
07-01-2008, 10:01 PM
Just wait for the day your insurer deems you unprofitable. The choice between paying a claim and a wrongful death suit all boils down to dollars and cents, and when bean counters make the decision, you can be sure that it will NOT be in your favor.
All retiree healthcare costs are "unprofitable"!:confused:
Your statement is totally illogical.
I have enjoyed that free coverage for 5+ years now, but if you'd rather foot the bill for me, I have no problem. :)
My BC/BS coverage dictates to facilities and doctors what they will be payed for services via a PPO contract. Any charges in excess of the contract specified amount is a write off. I pay a copay for each visit and that is about all.
K0RGR
07-01-2008, 10:09 PM
Are you aware that under previously presented Dumbocrat healthcare plans that the free coverage that many of us enjoy would be gone?
Yes Ryan, under the plan presented to Congress by Hillary Clinton my employer would have had the right to throw all employees into the national healthcare program and save themselves tons of dollars. Employees would have been forced to pay their own national healthcare costs.
If that appeals to you, vote for Obama. That is one of the reasons that most major corporations will be supporting Obama during this election.
And that is somehow worse than what many corporations have done to their employees already? The corporations are under no obligation to offer health insurance of any kind. Many have eliminated the benefit or made it impossibly expensive. I dearly wish I had the option of a state-run alternative. Our state insurance commissioner says that I can't get private insurance here due to my diabetes. We had a medicaid program here for people like me, where you could buy state insurance if you couldn't otherwise obtain it, but our Republican governor gutted the program.
Well obviously Mack is living in a dream world, because health insurance by employers is now prohibitively expensive for many.
My first job in the US, I made $78,000 per year and health insurance premiums were $50 per month (blue cross blue shield). The paltry sum I was paid in salary wasn't all that much, but the health insurance was affordable. Gas was affordable too, around $1 per gallon.
In a couple of years, the company changed hands and that TRIPLED. It became $150 per month.
Then it became $150 per pay period.
Only spent 3 years there.
The COBRA letter said health insurance would be almost $600 per month! Mercy me!
Then I went into consulting, made well into six figures that way, but health insurance was expensive. Then I got married to my current wife and went under her health plan. I was also in school so I ended up taking their group health insurance to satisfy their requirements (they required all enrolled students to have health insurance.)
Now I still do some consulting, but also have my full time job. Still make a lot of money but I'm thankful for free health insurance.
My real worry is my sick mother. It's cheaper for her to fly to Trinidad and get treated there rather than stay here and pay the medical bills. So that she does. She's a US citizen and I don't believe she qualifies for medicare/medicaid just yet. Apparently she's not poor enough.
And old stevie makes ASSumptions.
FYI, my wife is a NYC employee (meaning she works for the city gov) and because of that and the union contract we pay ZERO in health insurance premiums.
Zip, zilch, nada. Benefits are better than what my job in the private sector at a multinational corporation offers, so I just use hers.
Benefits also carry after retirement.
But nice try as always Toodles.
Well, well... Mercy me. Good for you! :)
Sincerely,
Steven
Some of the insured are _supposed_ to be "unprofitable." That's the point of insurance.
Some of the insured are _supposed_ to be "unprofitable." That's the point of insurance.
Yeah... some years they rob me blind... ;) other years my family and I really take advantage of them. :)
So far, I believe, I've come out ahead -- health insurance has saved my bacon...
N4VGB
07-02-2008, 12:55 AM
My real worry is my sick mother. It's cheaper for her to fly to Trinidad and get treated there rather than stay here and pay the medical bills. So that she does. She's a US citizen and I don't believe she qualifies for medicare/medicaid just yet. Apparently she's not poor enough.
My Ryan, very revealing post. Son who claims large income but mom can't afford healthcare? :rolleyes:
Mom's a U.S. citizen but flies to Trinidad for apparently free healthcare? Gee, can we all do that?
"Stepping up to the plate" apparently isn't common in family matters among those from Trinidad. :(
Why use your own money to help the woman who bore you when the government -- everyone's permanent mommy -- should?
Why use your own money to help the woman who bore you when the government -- everyone's permanent mommy -- should?
Wait till he has kids and figures what their costs are! :eek:
On second thought... wait till all the baby-boomers retire, and he's stuck paying their bills! :eek::eek::eek:
N4VGB
07-02-2008, 01:26 AM
Why use your own money to help the woman who bore you when the government -- everyone's permanent mommy -- should?
So it would seem.
k4kyv
07-02-2008, 03:38 AM
Is this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/01/waiting.room.death/index.html?eref=rss_topstories) supposed to be an example of the "best health care system in the world"?
Tape shows [patient] collapse, convulse and lay still; workers ignore her
Group says hospital staff falsified records to cover up incident.
N4VGB
07-02-2008, 03:55 AM
Is this supposed to be an example of the "best health care system in the world"?
Thank you for presenting a perfect example of what a public health care facility is like. Since this was an involuntary admission, probably court ordered, and was most assuredly one of the public funded facilities.
I visit the local public hospital because one of my doctors maintains his office there. I have felt a twinge of guilt as I'm whisk by those on the public dole waiting for lab tests, it doesn't last long though.
I'm sure I'll feel better when I'm forced onto public health care and take my place at the end of that long line and wait for hours.
Apparently like treatment for you and your family will induce a sense of joy? :confused::rolleyes:
n2ize
07-02-2008, 03:57 AM
Why use your own money to help the woman who bore you when the government -- everyone's permanent mommy -- should?
I don't think that's the point at all. Lets say for arguments sake she had no son nor other children or relatives to chip in and pay her health costs. Why shouldn't she be able to get reasonable affordable health care. Besides, whatever the moral obligations between son and parent may be, there is no law that says a son or daughter must pay their parents health care costs. A son or daughter has the right not to pay for theior parents doctor bills. Furthermore, many children of parents are strapped with their own bills, and their kids doctor bills.
This nation prides itself on being so great and so advanced. Yet it's one of the few western industrialized nations without a decent health care plan. Where growing numbers of millions go without health insurance and where people go bankrupt in order to stay alive. But theres always plenty of money for another corrupt war. Or to bail out another corporation. Or to pay off Halliburton or KBR as they rip off the taxpayers. Keep on drinking to Kool Aid folks, you're sinking with the ship.
n2ize
07-02-2008, 04:01 AM
And that is somehow worse than what many corporations have done to their employees already? The corporations are under no obligation to offer health insurance of any kind. Many have eliminated the benefit or made it impossibly expensive. I dearly wish I had the option of a state-run alternative. Our state insurance commissioner says that I can't get private insurance here due to my diabetes. We had a medicaid program here for people like me, where you could buy state insurance if you couldn't otherwise obtain it, but our Republican governor gutted the program.
There's a classic example of how the American greed based system works. Lots of Americans find themselves in a similar situation because of diabetes or other chronic condition.
N4VGB
07-02-2008, 04:07 AM
This nation prides itself on being so great and so advanced. Yet it's one of the few western industrialized nations without a decent health care plan. Where growing numbers of millions go without health insurance and where people go bankrupt in order to stay alive.
Since NYC alone receives billions yearly for health care from the Fed and since you claim none is available there, could we get a refund from you guys! :eek:
W4DFW
07-02-2008, 04:08 AM
And I have yet to find even one Englishmen who would trade health care with you. Not even one. And I have asked pretty much everyone I've exchanged more than 3 words wioth that question.
Uhm . . . why am I not surprised? With such a limited vocabulary, it's not difficult to understand why ignorance for you is so blissful! I'm sure you make you mammy proud!! God bless you, son!
They also are not even remotely interested in moving there. Neither are the French, Belgians, Nederlanders, Italians, Germans, or Danes I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting.
Praise JESUS!! Thank you LORD!! That is MUSIC to my ears!!
I think you are a scum bag for it (among other things) but I do understand your stake in making sure you can gouge top dollar from your clients in perpetuity.
Please, do tell us how you feel!! Devoid of rational thought, you've succumbed to the typical lib'rul lunacy of leftwingnuts who when faced with issues beyond their comprehension, nevertheless succeed in revealing their utter ignorance while attempting to slime those whose superior intellect they so despise yet admire.
I sit here STUNNED by your personal insults . . . why if I was a lib'rul lune I'd report your transgression to my mammy so she could whip your bottom and send you to your room without dinner.
Were you born an arse or did it take years of study?? :confused:
And that is somehow worse than what many corporations have done to their employees already? The corporations are under no obligation to offer health insurance of any kind. Many have eliminated the benefit or made it impossibly expensive. I dearly wish I had the option of a state-run alternative. Our state insurance commissioner says that I can't get private insurance here due to my diabetes. We had a Medicaid program here for people like me, where you could buy state insurance if you couldn't otherwise obtain it, but our Republican governor gutted the program.
Nobody is forcing you to live in MN. If you can't get what you want there, move somewhere else, work for someone else -- make reasonable coverage happen for you.
Personal responsibility for my family and I is a top priority. Cradle to grave reliance on unearned government programs is not honorable -- if that's what you're after, I pity you. You don't want that... so what's to do?
Do the RIGHT thing... take action to solve your own issues -- which means stop being a poor liberal democrat so dazed and drunk on current and desired 'unearned entitlements'. Stop being the pawn to the rich fat-cat dems wanting to secure and control your every move, thought, and vote. Quit the woe-is-me story, and empower yourself.
73.
My Ryan, very revealing post. Son who claims large income but mom can't afford healthcare? :rolleyes:
Mom's a U.S. citizen but flies to Trinidad for apparently free healthcare? Gee, can we all do that?
"Stepping up to the plate" apparently isn't common in family matters among those from Trinidad. :(
Jethro,
Has it occurred to you that Ryan's mother may not be able to get health insurance at all?? Just to enlighten you, some states do allow health insurers to deny a person coverage if they are considered an undue risk. And, in those states that prohibit health insurers from denying coverage for any reason, the cost would be too prohibitive for an individual.
Next time, kindly engage brain before mouth/keyboard.
K7KWH
...knows how it is to have a sick mother...
Jethro,
Has it occurred to you that Ryan's mother may not be able to get health insurance at all?? Just to enlighten you, some states do allow health insurers to deny a person coverage if they are considered an undue risk. And, in those states that prohibit health insurers from denying coverage for any reason, the cost would be too prohibitive for an individual.
Next time, kindly engage brain before mouth/keyboard.
K7KWH
...knows how it is to have a sick mother...
Then she's obviously in the wrong state then, eh? As I told RGR above, empower yourself and do the right thing. If that means moving, so be it. Personal responsibility and responsibility of your loved ones and immediate family should rule over cop-out, and less than honorable, and poor, giv'ment solutions.
Then she's obviously in the wrong state then, eh? As I told RGR above, empower yourself and do the right thing. If that means moving, so be it. Personal responsibility and responsibility of your loved ones and immediate family should rule over cop-out, and less than honorable, and poor, giv'ment solutions.
So he should uproot his family and move to a questionable job market to get better health coverage?
Yet when I decided to move to a better country I am called a turncoat.
Interesting.
You truly are a very confused moron Stevie, flipping around like a fish out of water seems to be your style.
So he should uproot his family and move to a questionable job market to get better health coverage?
Yet when I decided to move to a better country I am called a turncoat.
Interesting.
You truly are a very confused moron Stevie, flipping around like a fish out of water seems to be your style.
That's right... you are a turncoat. Bub-bye...
That's right...
What, I was right that you're a moron?
Thanks for clearing that up Stevie, but it was obvious from the start.
Buhbye!:p
VK3ZL
07-02-2008, 10:21 AM
Well staying out in the fresh air and sunshine got me multiple skin cancers. Luckily they've all been basal cell carcinoma which only require a good surgeon to handle, but cause me to look a bit like a lump of Swiss Cheese. Heart, lung, liver and kidney problems also. :eek:
The cost of my normal round of 7 pills and 3 inhalers daily, plus carrying a nitro lingual spray for the angina and also oxygen that is needed for very much physical exertion, far exceed the costs covered in any of the nationalized healthcare plans that I've seen. ;)
Americans seem totally unaware of just how many of their fellow citizens are in just as bad physical condition as I and many much worse. The costs of SS medical and disability, Medicare, Medicaid and the totally free care offered via our public funded facilities is already staggering here. Already consuming a huge chunk of our GDP. ;)
Either Australian hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc. work for ditch digger pay and medical equipment and supplies are dirt cheap also, or you're just not receiving the same high level of medical care that Americans demand and enjoy. Ambulances and EMTs stationed very near most here locally and 2 air ambulance helicopters for my low population density area alone. :)
I just don't see Australians enjoying a great free healthcare program on a per capita Medicare spending of $850AUD which is currently $810USD!? While independent charts show Australian per capita cost at $2,886 in 2003 and the U.S. at $5,711 for the same year. So if Australian Medicare covers all costs totally, where did the extra $2,000 per capita of costs come from in 2003? :confused:
I am sorry to hear you have had skin cancers...That is the bane of Australia with the highest incidence of this in the world....Fortunately when we visit our GP it is routine procedure to check for this insidious problem..I have been very lucky having worked in the open air most of my life..I guess having a dark complexion helps..
I am a self funded retiree and pay for my own private health insurance..I am entitled to use the public system if I choose but I have no need..Nobody I know who uses the public health system here seems to have a problem with it, and as I still work as a volunteer in the regional hospital system daily handling and transporting patients, I would sure hear any complaints..
I guess there are good and bad in all health programs world wide.. Obviously there is room for improvements to all systems..Guess no size fits all..Slinging insults back and forth over this subject won't cure the problem..:D :D..
Bob....VK3ZL.....
Objections to socialized medicine seem IMO divided between those who object to the socialism, and those who object to the medicine. I agree somewhat with the first, and think the second a result of poor planning. But when private means cannot or will not deliver the care we need, government has a duty to make well the disparity between what they do and what government needs us to have.
Insofar as as government seeks no profit, the balance should be with government, but the US government is famously unable to run anything efficiently. It's only in nations whose citizens are careful about what they ask for that government-provided medical care has worked -- and that says less about socialism than society.
IMO!
Cortland
KA5S
I don't think that's the point at all. Lets say for arguments sake she had no son nor other children or relatives to chip in and pay her health costs. Why shouldn't she be able to get reasonable affordable health care. Besides, whatever the moral obligations between son and parent may be, there is no law that says a son or daughter must pay their parents health care costs. A son or daughter has the right not to pay for theior parents doctor bills. Furthermore, many children of parents are strapped with their own bills, and their kids doctor bills.
You're probably right that that wasn't the point - I was being uncharitable.
But is there a moral obligation that you and I pay for Ryan's mother's healthcare? Moreso than his obligation?
Why use your own money to help the woman who bore you when the government -- everyone's permanent mommy -- should?
Because I can't afford to pay all of her medical bills. I help where I can, often foregoing things for myself, but can't do it alone.
She can't get insurance due to a "pre-existing condition."
Medical bills quickly add up, when my ex wife had her medical problems she saw a cardiologist and the bills came up to over $10,000 easily. The insurance company tried to deny a whole lot of it, but after fighting with them for months I finally only had to pay about $800 of it.
Uhm . . . why am I not surprised? With such a limited vocabulary, it's not difficult to understand why ignorance for you is so blissful! I'm sure you make you mammy proud!! God bless you, son!
Praise JESUS!! Thank you LORD!! That is MUSIC to my ears!!
Please, do tell us how you feel!! Devoid of rational thought, you've succumbed to the typical lib'rul lunacy of leftwingnuts who when faced with issues beyond their comprehension, nevertheless succeed in revealing their utter ignorance while attempting to slime those whose superior intellect they so despise yet admire.
I sit here STUNNED by your personal insults . . . why if I was a lib'rul lune I'd report your transgression to my mammy so she could whip your bottom and send you to your room without dinner.
Were you born an arse or did it take years of study?? :confused:
Of course you would single out my grammatical/spelling errors, you are unable to refute the content.
Typing on blogs like this at work requires speed and not accuracy.
Mammy jokes, how sophisticated of you. :rolleyes:
So much for superior intellect.
Low grade morons like you taught me to be the arse that I am today, take a bow doc.
It takes a special kind of idiot to believe the lies the machine feeds you and spit them back out with such conviction, and you are just that kind of idiot.
If I have stunned you excellent, though I suspect that (like so much of what you post) is just so much lie.
Keep on gouging them out of their life savings doc, it's the American way!
Because I can't afford to pay all of her medical bills. I help where I can, often foregoing things for myself, but can't do it alone.
She can't get insurance due to a "pre-existing condition."
Medical bills quickly add up, when my ex wife had her medical problems she saw a cardiologist and the bills came up to over $10,000 easily. The insurance company tried to deny a whole lot of it, but after fighting with them for months I finally only had to pay about $800 of it.
Yeah, that seems to be the way it goes with insurance companies. I've "re-submitted" bills dozens of times, and each time they pay a little more. It's a huge PITA, and shouldn't be necessary, and I think they're really trying to ream people by automatically denying the first time.
I'm not sure how to fix that, though. Seems to me, if we have gov't insurance, the healthy taxpayers are going to gripe about inefficiency, moral hazard, spending too much, etc. and want the same thing to happen. Shareholders in a private insurance company versus whiny taxpayers - not sure that one's any better than the other. And with gov't plans, neglect, poor treatment, rationing, cost cutting, etc can be codified into law. At least with a private system, we theoretically (even though not so much in actuality right now) can choose another.
Healthcare is very expensive now. That's the biggest problem. It costs more to take care of people than pretty much anyone can afford. Some people will never earn or produce enough to cover their medical expenses.
n2ize
07-02-2008, 06:12 PM
You're probably right that that wasn't the point - I was being uncharitable.
But is there a moral obligation that you and I pay for Ryan's mother's healthcare? Moreso than his obligation?
In the sense of a health care system yes. I would be just as glad to know that you or Ryans mom, myself or anyone in America can have affordable health care when they need it and without going broke in the process or having to go without. Personally I think that is one of the most ethical uses of the tax dollar that I can think of.
I think it's a shame how many Americans are screwed over by the health insurance racket, how many more are uninsured and have no care plan whatsoever, and, that many cannot even get insurance due to pre0existing conditions like diabetes. Imagine, a person with diabetes who needs health insurance the most has the most trouble getting health care.
Such a nation which prides itself on being so advanced and so ethical turns it's back on sick people.
N4VGB
07-02-2008, 08:10 PM
I am a self funded retiree and pay for my own private health insurance..I am entitled to use the public system if I choose but I have no need..
What amazes and irritates me is Americans who claim there is no free health care here, they need to check on where their taxes are being spent yearly! I know of many who have received very expensive health care in the U.S. at no expense to themselves. If that's not public health care then I'm totally confused on the issue.
"Stepping up to the plate" apparently isn't common in family matters among those from Trinidad. :(
You just couldn't resist, could you?
Yeah, that seems to be the way it goes with insurance companies. I've "re-submitted" bills dozens of times, and each time they pay a little more. It's a huge PITA, and shouldn't be necessary, and I think they're really trying to ream people by automatically denying the first time.
Another insurance company did that with the alleged "home warranty" that we bought with our home.
Well pump failed during the warranty, I call them up, they give me the phone # of an authorized repair person. That person said flat out they're not doing any business where the warranty company would pay, because they don't.
So I called them back, and they said, OK, call a local plumber and they'd pay the claim.
I called the plumber, he came out, did the diagnosis, called the warranty company. They made some BS claim that the wiring may have caused the pump to fail, without even looking at the pump and wiring! To me the wiring looked perfectly fine, and there were no damages to the insulation, just some very small scuffs that in NO WAY compromised it.
In the end I was out $1300, and had I known the warranty (insurance) company would have denied my claim, I'd have just bought a pump myself from tractor supply or home depot and installed it myself and saved money on the plumber.
I have zero faith in insurance companies, because if they can do that to my home, they sure as hell can do that to my health.
k4kyv
07-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Here's a look at the National Health Service in UK.
http://news.uk.msn.com/nhs-at-60-special-report.aspx
-
Because I can't afford to pay all of her medical bills. I help where I can, often foregoing things for myself, but can't do it alone.
She can't get insurance due to a "pre-existing condition."
Medical bills quickly add up, when my ex wife had her medical problems she saw a cardiologist and the bills came up to over $10,000 easily. The insurance company tried to deny a whole lot of it, but after fighting with them for months I finally only had to pay about $800 of it.
Why is it my family of five has never had such problems described? I've had insurance most of the larger health insurance companies like Aetna, Cigna, etc. They've always paid there fair share. I've racked up bills totaling over a quarter million in the last 12 years. One child cost us $100,000.00 alone for his rough birth. No hassles to speak of.
Perhaps they identify suckers, or at least try to?
All I can say is, "Wow! Strokes of bad luck and woe-is-me stories abound!"
Another insurance company did that with the alleged "home warranty" that we bought with our home.
Well pump failed during the warranty, I call them up, they give me the phone # of an authorized repair person. That person said flat out they're not doing any business where the warranty company would pay, because they don't.
So I called them back, and they said, OK, call a local plumber and they'd pay the claim.
I called the plumber, he came out, did the diagnosis, called the warranty company. They made some BS claim that the wiring may have caused the pump to fail, without even looking at the pump and wiring! To me the wiring looked perfectly fine, and there were no damages to the insulation, just some very small scuffs that in NO WAY compromised it.
In the end I was out $1300, and had I known the warranty (insurance) company would have denied my claim, I'd have just bought a pump myself from tractor supply or home depot and installed it myself and saved money on the plumber.
I have zero faith in insurance companies, because if they can do that to my home, they sure as hell can do that to my health.
What we need to do is sue the snot out of them at all reasonable opportunities. Then they'll have to change. They don't have governmental immunity (which the gov't obviously has).
What we need to do is sue the snot out of them at all reasonable opportunities. Then they'll have to change. They don't have governmental immunity (which the gov't obviously has).
Suing costs money, money which I just spent on fixing a broken well pump because there was no water in my house!
As for lawsuits changing things - don't waste your time. Insurance companies have the best legal staff that money can buy.
What? You're wife totaled over $50,000 to $100,000 in cardiologist bills,
$10,000, not $100,000.
and you complained about paying your fair share of 10 to 20%?
I don't complain about paying for health insurance premiums. You just don't get it do you?
It's not paying the premiums.
It's paying the actual costs when your insurance company leaves you stranded in the name of profits.
It's paying for full coverage then having your insurer not hold up their side of the bargain.
Maybe you're naive enough to shrug it off when your insurer rips you off, but unlike you, I'm not!
You could have put off the tower, antennas, amplifier, etc. to meet your obligation.
This was years before I had a tower, amplifier or even antenna. I was basically a "shack on the hip" type of ham.
It does seem like you're a bit jealous, no?
But then, you had a divorce to pay for...
Toodles.
It was the best $215 I ever spent.
Anyone who pays anything beyond filing fees to get divorced is a fool. The type of fool that lawyers like.
What, I was right that you're a moron?
Thanks for clearing that up Stevie, but it was obvious from the start.
Buhbye!:p
Good riddance, Toddles! Once a turncoat, always a turncoat.
Cheerio, misguided one.
$10,000, not $100,000.
I don't complain about paying for health insurance premiums. You just don't get it do you?
It's not paying the premiums.
It's paying the actual costs when your insurance company leaves you stranded in the name of profits.
It's paying for full coverage then having your insurer not hold up their side of the bargain.
Maybe you're naive enough to shrug it off when your insurer rips you off, but unlike you, I'm not!
This was years before I had a tower, amplifier or even antenna. I was basically a "shack on the hip" type of ham.
It does seem like you're a bit jealous, no?
It was the best $215 I ever spent.
Anyone who pays anything beyond filing fees to get divorced is a fool. The type of fool that lawyers like.
I've never been stranded, Ryan. Perhaps they labeled you as a sucker, being so young? Keep up the good fight...
n2ize
07-02-2008, 09:29 PM
What we need to do is sue the snot out of them at all reasonable opportunities. Then they'll have to change. They don't have governmental immunity (which the gov't obviously has).
What we need is a decent national health care system like the majoruity of the civilized world already has. We can pretend that somehow the current system wsill change and start to work right. We can pretend that we're the greatest. But, it will never change until we do something to change it.
What we need is a decent national health care system like the majoruity of the civilized world already has. We can pretend that somehow the current system wsill change and start to work right. We can pretend that we're the greatest. But, it will never change until we do something to change it.
We can pretend to be able to pay for it, too! Good grief!
n2ize
07-02-2008, 09:41 PM
So he should uproot his family and move to a questionable job market to get better health coverage?
Yet when I decided to move to a better country I am called a turncoat.
Interesting.
And even if he moves to another state he may have to quit his job, lose his pension, perhaps have to take a lesser job, etc. And even if he moves he'll still have to face the same struggle with having a pre-existing condition and be denied healt care at an affordable rate by the same insurance companies.
Of course he could move to a country that has a national health care plan and that would solve the problem,.
And even if he moves to another state he may have to quit his job, lose his pension, perhaps have to take a lesser job, etc. And even if he moves he'll still have to face the same struggle with having a pre-existing condition and be denied healt care at an affordable rate by the same insurance companies.
Of course he could move to a country that has a national health care plan and that would solve the problem,.
Haven't the dems heard of the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA)???
There's plenty of info and orgs to help those needing insurance with preexisting conditions, such as:
http://www.ahrq.gov/consumer/insuranceqa/insuranceqa10.htm
http://www.insure.com/articles/healthinsurance/HIPAA.html
http://www.medhealthinsurance.com/lndng/health-insurance-old.php?source=google&gclid=CKyD0pSWopQCFQ4