View Full Version : Congress To The Rescue On Oil!
N4VGB
06-25-2008, 06:56 PM
Interesting Congressional hearings today on energy problems. It seems that 91% of known U.S. crude oil reserves that are on public land are also under moratorium on drilling. So forget that oil, Congress and Obama don't want to recover that oil. :rolleyes:
It appears that Congress has lined up themselves witnesses to blame the problem on commodities traders. That might be your pension fund managers but who cares about your pension fund. So we've got ourselves a scapegoat and Congress will no doubt act. Sounds like a great plan, or is it? ;)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121433047369100457.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/25/hk.commodities.ap/index.html?eref=rss_latest
:D:D Yep! Looks like the plan is to move oil trading to the Hong Kong exchange! :D:D
:eek: Wonder how China plans for your stupidity in advance, even before your Dombocrats in Congress inform you of your stupid change? :eek:
k9kxq
06-25-2008, 07:24 PM
From what I seen on the tube it's speculators that drive the price up, and the talk is oil prices could be cut by half in or around 30 days, it will take 90 days for congress to do anything maybe longer hey, I don't play the market I like keeping what savings I have safe and secure...
kxq
KB9YCO
06-25-2008, 07:33 PM
One thing people seem to be ignoring about the problem of oil prices in this country is the fact of the weak US dollar in the international market. That's a domestic economic problem and not just an oil supply/demand problem. Congress is partially right in the fact that there are speculators and other interested parties helping to drive up the price, but once again (as usual) there is much more in the middle of this story than the two extremes want to admit. It's easy to always blame the other side, something both parties both do quite well, but to actually find a solution, long-term or immediate is a bit more difficult. That's not to say that there isn't a fair amount of greed going on around the petroleum industry, but that isn't the only issue.
More domestic drilling certainly isn't an immediate solution, though one that should be considered to some degree. The problem has many more variables than lack of drilling and greedy oil companies and investors. Besides, it's already been shown that even if we opened up every area for drilling it won't change the overall issue of energy consumption, increasing population, and a weak economy. Besides, what will it buy us, a couple more decades? These sources won't last forever and until we start realizing that nothing will change, it'll just get pushed up a few years.
To some degree Congress is right to investigate these issues, but the fact that the overall government is WAY behind on developing and encouraging alternatives, and the fact that this country is obsessed with consumption regardless of impact (think of all the things you own that are largely derived from petroleum based products; computers, radios, product packaging, etc.) it won't change the immediate solution of the economic impact on the nation and the world market as a whole.
Face the facts, the days of cheap energy are OVER. Not just oil but energy consumption in general, unless someone comes up with a radically different way of producing energy there is no immediate solution.
k9kxq
06-25-2008, 07:42 PM
One thing people seem to be ignoring about the problem of oil prices in this country is the fact of the weak US dollar in the international market. That's a domestic economic problem and not just an oil supply/demand problem. Congress is partially right in the fact that there are speculators and other interested parties helping to drive up the price, but once again (as usual) there is much more in the middle of this story than the two extremes want to admit. It's easy to always blame the other side, something both parties both do quite well, but to actually find a solution, long-term or immediate is a bit more difficult. That's not to say that there isn't a fair amount of greed going on around the petroleum industry, but that isn't the only issue.
More domestic drilling certainly isn't an immediate solution, though one that should be considered to some degree. The problem has many more variables than lack of drilling and greedy oil companies and investors. Besides, it's already been shown that even if we opened up every area for drilling it won't change the overall issue of energy consumption, increasing population, and a weak economy. Besides, what will it buy us, a couple more decades? These sources won't last forever and until we start realizing that nothing will change, it'll just get pushed up a few years.
To some degree Congress is right to investigate these issues, but the fact that the overall government is WAY behind on developing and encouraging alternatives, and the fact that this country is obsessed with consumption regardless of impact (think of all the things you own that are largely derived from petroleum based products; computers, radios, product packaging, etc.) it won't change the immediate solution of the economic impact on the nation and the world market as a whole.
Face the facts, the days of cheap energy are OVER. Not just oil but energy consumption in general, unless someone comes up with a radically different way of producing energy there is no immediate solution.
The Saudi's want Euro not the American buck and Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...
kxq
Ah yes, the "speculators."
You know, the capitalists who make a living trading energy?
Don't you guys love capitalism?
Why do you hate America so much?
N7RJD
06-25-2008, 08:52 PM
The Saudi's want Euro not the American buck and Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...
kxq
Cheney on board with a blow 'em up plan, surely you jest.
N4VGB
06-25-2008, 09:42 PM
From what I seen on the tube it's speculators that drive the price up, and the talk is oil prices could be cut by half in or around 30 days, it will take 90 days for congress to do anything maybe longer hey, I don't play the market I like keeping what savings I have safe and secure...
kxq
Looks like speculators are going to be the scapegoats. Yes indeed, crack down on speculators. But they'll now do their business in Hong Kong with no U.S. oversight or control and no profits & taxes in America. :confused:
Yessir, we'll do a WalMart with the crude oil business in America and that will fix it for sure. :rolleyes:
N4VGB
06-25-2008, 09:43 PM
The Saudi's want Euro not the American buck and Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...
kxq
Notice in the links that the new Hong Kong commodities market will be based in U.S. dollars? ;)
KG4JYD
06-25-2008, 10:36 PM
Congress needs to remove all taxes and regulation on oil and the price will drop without a doubt!
The Saudi's want Euro not the American buck and Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...
kxq
At least they aren't asking for gold bullion like they almost did in WW 2. Came real close.
n2ize
06-25-2008, 11:42 PM
Congress needs to remove all taxes and regulation on oil and the price will drop without a doubt!
There's this thing called the "Brooklyn Bridge". I hear it's up for sale... :D :D
N4VGB
06-26-2008, 12:38 AM
Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...kxq
So you missed the big Israeli military air exercise over the Mediterranean Sea? It just happened to be about the same distance out as from Israel to Iran!? I'm sure it's just a coincidence. ;)
Me thinks the Israelis are getting ready to handle Iran's uranium enrichment facility, just like they did for Iraq and Syria. ;)
N7RJD
06-26-2008, 12:53 AM
Congress needs to remove all taxes and regulation on oil and the price will drop without a doubt!
That would be nice until we got tired of driving on roads in a worse state of repair than we do now. Of course we'll never find out, we all know how much Congress likes giving up their money.
I say remove all the gas taxes and toll all the roads!
I'm sure the folks in chattanooga, Tennessee would love to pay for their own roads for a change!
N4VGB
06-26-2008, 02:10 AM
I say remove all the gas taxes and toll all the roads!
I'm sure the folks in chattanooga, Tennessee would love to pay for their own roads for a change!
So who has been paying for our roads? We haven't seen any 'care packages' from NJ to my knowledge? :p
KB9YCO
06-26-2008, 02:17 AM
Ah yes, the "speculators."
You know, the capitalists who make a living trading energy?
Don't you guys love capitalism?
Why do you hate America so much?
There is a difference between capitalism and artificially inflating the price for the sake of greed. If you take an objective look at what seems to really be going on it looks awful suspicious. (Why do you love greed so much?) Not to mention the fact that at this point in time I have to really wonder if basic energy needs should be marketed purely for profit anyway. I'm sure someone will call me a 'socialist' for saying so, but it seems that the overall good of society outweighs the need for a few to make RECORD PROFITS. That's not to say that the people that invest their money shouldn't make a return, nor do I think it should be stolen away for them, but it seems to be going far beyond good old capitalism these days. Just my opinion, I could be wrong, I'm no expert on the industry but what I see these days certainly seems to be more about raking in as much cash as possible then it does about business.
Oh well, I don't foresee it changing any time soon, people had better get used to energy in general being more expensive.
KG4JYD
06-26-2008, 03:19 AM
That would be nice until we got tired of driving on roads in a worse state of repair than we do now. Of course we'll never find out, we all know how much Congress likes giving up their money.There would be more money to the State available because less of it would taken by the Feds.
k7van
06-26-2008, 04:42 AM
The Federal Highway Trust Fund is where the federal gas tax money goes.
It is then apportioned out to the states.
The data I've found for 2005 (FFY) indicates:
Tennessee payed in 2.443% of the total FHTF funds, but got 2.127 back.
New Jersey payed in 2.940% of the total FHTF funds, and got back 2.457%
So those two states were funding 'losers', they paid in more than they got back.
The biggest losers were, in order: Texas, Oklahoma, South Caroline, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio and Florida.
The biggest winners were, in order: Alaska (by far), DC, Hawaii, Montana, Rhode Island, South Dakota and North Dakota.
de K7VV
So you missed the big Israeli military air exercise over the Mediterranean Sea? It just happened to be about the same distance out as from Israel to Iran!? I'm sure it's just a coincidence. ;)
Me thinks the Israelis are getting ready to handle Iran's uranium enrichment facility, just like they did for Iraq and Syria. ;)
Israel will probally wait until after the November election, but will strike before Bush is out of office. Syria will probally join with Iran so they will be in play also . They know Bush is not in a position to hit Iran and Obama is a wimp.
kg6amw
06-26-2008, 01:41 PM
Action entails risks and consequences. Mere thinking doesn't. In our litigious society, as soon as someone finally does something, someone else can become wealthy by finding some fault in it. Meanwhile a less fussy, more confident world abroad drills, and builds nuclear plants, refineries, dams and canals to feed and fuel millions who want what we take for granted.
VE1IDX
06-27-2008, 12:35 AM
The Saudi's want Euro not the American buck and Israel is pressuring Bush to hit Iran, Cheney is aboard on this, so get ready folks...
kxq
Iran is pushing for oil to be traded in Euro's not US dollars. If that ever happens watch the US economy go down the toilet.The greenback will be almost worthless.Iran does not have to win a military war to defeat the USA. All it has to do is convince the power's-that-be to trade oil in Euros. It will be interesting to hear Bush's excuse for striking Iran. He came up with a real dandy for going into Iraq and staying so long. I wonder why he never invaded Saudi Arabia, after all that is where most of the 9/11 hijackers were from.
N4VGB
06-27-2008, 12:41 AM
It will be interesting to hear Bush's excuse for striking Iran.
I don't think the U.S. will be striking the blow, looks more like the Israelis are preparing for that one. Going to be a mess of a cleanup! This one will be the first strike of a nuclear facility that already contains nuclear material and probably will contain highly enriched uranium that is far beyond that used in nuclear plants for power generation. It could be much worse than Chernobyl.:(
Not to worry, DEMS will solve the oil problem.....
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/01/video-energy-independence-day-one-year-later/?print=1
KD6NIG
07-01-2008, 02:37 PM
I only have one thing to say about the speculators: Let them.
Let them speculate it to the hilt.
The reality is, consumption is already down because people cannot afford it. If they keep this up, there is going to be a nice "correction" pretty shortly.
Then, when those same speculators have lost their shirts and come crying for help like all the people who didn't know how to read a loan document in this country, we can just tell them "thanks for helping us a few months ago when you drove the price up to $150" and let them deal with it themselves.
The best cure for speculation like this is the market simply not supporting the numbers they drive it to. When a few thousand of them lose their shirts suddenly, it doesn't look so attractive anymore.
Thats why although I feel for people who have lost their homes, I don't think we should be bailing them out. If the answer to such a major error that could have been prevented by reading the terms on a loan document, and you didn't and signed anyway, its on you. Now, if the bank fudged your income and stuff thats different, but many of these people knew full well what they were getting into. Bailing them out just sends the message that there is no risk-we can mess up but we'll get help anyway.
I just love how there are announcements every day too about some guy predicting $175 oil in 3 months. $7 gasoline. Should ask them where they work. Oh, they are commodities brokers. Not a surprise. Thats where they WANT the price to be, of course.
The bottom line is the bottom line. Even China isn't going to be able to afford oil if this keeps up. They are going to find the magic number soon, or they already have and there is going to be a sudden drop. A lot of people are going to make money. But money doesn't just materialize, so for every dollar a guy makes on the oil market, some other guy is losing a dollar. The guys who are holding the bag when they own 10,000 futures and suddenly it takes a $10 dive are the ones who are going to learn the hard lesson.
Why do you think the producing countries are scared? This is doing what they DON'T want-there is more talk now more than ever about alternative fuels-or using stuff like solar and wind power when, once its deployed, means less oil is used. If people get ticked off enough, it won't matter if in 5 years we're back down to $90 a bbl and gas is $3 a gallon. If because the price went so high we all changed our habits, or changed to fuel efficent vehicles, we're really going to see the savings at that point and most people won't change back. The net result is consumption will go down, remain down, and it will eat the profits away, and the price will keep falling.
The last thing the oil producers want to do is tick everyone off. Its already happening now. They may be making money hand over fist now, but if the consumption figures keep dropping, they are going to be biting their nails.
Whats happening now was meant to happen in about 30-40 years. You know, when the supplies were so low that they were about out anyway, so they knew the end was coming. Now is not the time for it, they still have too much to sell. Another 10-15 years before this happened is what they wanted. They may have a 200 year supply sitting pretty quickly as ticked off as we're getting....
W4HAY
07-03-2008, 08:23 PM
What do the Democratic-led Congress and OPEC have in common? Both sit on vast amounts of oil, and are content to leave it in the ground and let prices soar. Fortunately, Americans are catching on...
...Democrats in Congress for nearly two decades have rejected drilling for more oil, building more refineries or developing more nuclear power. Since 1990, there have been 46 attempts to boost America's energy supplies. Only Democratic opposition keeps us from having more...
...Americans today face spiraling costs for food and gasoline thanks to the Democrats' ideological nearsightedness. Higher energy costs are feeding into higher prices for everything, especially food...
Congress = OPEC? (http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=299891086404614)
Speculation is part of it but the real fault lies with the oil companies themselves.
There is no shortage of oil, and OPEC is correct in saying increased outputs will do nothing.
The problem lies with refinery operators who decided to take profit throughout the last 25 years instead of reinvesting like they should have in more refining facilities and infrastructure. Not only have they not invested in the required infrastructure to keep up with demand growth, they let what they had go as well.
The shortage lies in refining capacity and all the drilling noise being made by right wing dupes is just that, noise. Opening up ANWAR or the coasts does nothing if you can't refine it. Oh, wait, it does do one thing: it makes oil exploration companies rich.
If you blame the Democrats on this you are a total tool and an idiot.
If you blame the Republicans on this the same goes for you as well.
The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the countries refining operations who did nothing to keep up with anticipated capacity increase and instead opted to take profit for their executives and shareholders.
Funny thing though, it looks like they are getting even more money by having been so short sighted.
Interesting how that's working out...
The other thing is a little thing called vertical integration.
When you own the exploration, production, refining and control the retail operations, you can set whatever price you want, because you are a de-facto monopoly, a vertical monopoly.
Oil prices are going up because the oil companies bought up the little guys and put them out of business.
You know, like walmart moving into town and running the local businesses out of business, then jacking up the price.
KG4JYD
07-04-2008, 07:38 PM
I say remove all the gas taxes and toll all the roads!
I'm sure the folks in chattanooga, Tennessee would love to pay for their own roads for a change!Probably if it meant no income tax.
AD5WY
07-04-2008, 10:26 PM
'Congress To The Rescue On Oil!'
VIKINGS to the rescue on the food crisis!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
You're in Greenwich!?
Wow.
Been out there several times with the RNARS group.
What's the latest on the Cutty Sark fire? Are they going to rebuild?
Next time ur in London proper with time to burn go down to HMS Belfast by Tower Bridge and check in with the RNARS ops in the Bridge Wireless Office. Callsign GB2RN. Great fun.
de K7VV
You're in Greenwich!?
Wow.
Been out there several times with the RNARS group.
What's the latest on the Cutty Sark fire? Are they going to rebuild?
Next time ur in London proper with time to burn go down to HMS Belfast by Tower Bridge and check in with the RNARS ops in the Bridge Wireless Office. Callsign GB2RN. Great fun.
de K7VV
Sure am, I live about 100 meters from the corner of the south east wall of the park. It's been awesome for my daughter, she has mass acreage to run around on and the neighborhood is one of the nicest I've lived in. I call it my 15 minute flat - 15 minutes to Blackheath, 15 minutes to Greenwich, 15 minutes to Blackheath Standard and when you get to the train in Blackheath it's 15 minutes to London Bridge Station.:D
The Cutty Sark is being rebuilt! Luckily the majority of her decking and timbers had already been removed and sent off for restoration when the fire broke out so it was just the hull timbers and lining that burned. The steel hull didn't warp and shes good to go for her refit. Should be finished in a couple of years they say.
I see the Belfast every day on my walk to work across London Bridge, I will have to stop in and check out the radio room, thanks for the heads up!
Let me know next time you're out here, we'll go knock back a few pints.:D
Well, if all goes well I should be at the RNARS meeting the week after Easter next year. But still want the beer cold!
de K7VV
That warm beer stuff is a myth, all my brews here are ice cold unless I'm ordering something that's cask conditioned.
Look forward to eyeballin ya!
kg6amw
07-05-2008, 10:17 PM
In a case that could affect oil refineries around the country, plans by ConocoPhillips to expand its refinery in Roxana, Illinois were sidelined on Friday when an appeal board of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency upheld a challenge to the air permit required for the project. The decision sends ConocoPhillips and the Illinois EPA, which had granted the permits for the Wood River refinery expansion, back to the drawing board.
The legal challenge mounted by environmental groups in August 2007 argued that harmful air pollution from the refinery’s flares, which relieve pressure in the refining process, was not being sufficiently controlled. The Natural Resources Defense Council led the challenge representing American Bottom Conservancy, a nonprofit organization based in the Metro East St. Louis area. The Sierra Club was represented by the Environmental Integrity Project. "This is a huge win for anyone living near a refinery, but especially the communities in the Metro East area and for St. Louis," said Ann Alexander, senior attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council and lead litigator on the challenge. "Excessive emissions from this expanded refinery would have harmed the health of everyone in the region," she said.
The Wood River Refinery is ConocoPhillips' largest in the United States. The company seeks to invest an estimated $1 billion to add a second coker, or crude oil processor. The refinery expansion is connected to ConocoPhillips' development with TransCanada Pipelines of a proposed 1,840 mile pipeline from Hardisty, Alberta. ConocoPhillips wants to expand the refinery to process crude oil extracted from Canadian tar sands, an energy source that the environmentalists point out generates three times more greenhouse gases than gasoline made from conventional oils.
At issue are the burning columns of waste gas known as flares that can be seen for miles, and which emit dangerous pollutants. NRDC attorneys contend that refineries elsewhere have reduced flaring through better design and improved management practices. The challengers claimed that state officials have hindered local community input on the ConocoPhillips Roxana project and ignored "readily available, proven safeguards used widely at similar facilities nationwide."
"At a time of record oil profits, this decision ensures ConocoPhillips will invest in protections for the surrounding communities, rather than pushing the cost of pollution onto taxpayers in the form of respiratory illness, hospital bills, and lost time at work," said Alexander. "We hope this will become the norm at all oil refineries in the United States.”
"Illinois EPA ignored the simple rules required by law," said Kathy Andria, president of American Bottom Conservancy and a member of the Illinois Sierra Club Clean Air Campaign. "Citizens should not have to file legal appeals to see that the Clean Air Act is enforced or that a state agency does the job it is supposed to do to protect their communities."
Alexander points out that California refineries have been held to a higher standard than those elsewhere in the United States when it comes to cutting pollution from their flares. "There is no reason that people in San Francisco or L.A. should have better protections than people elsewhere in the country. EPA is sending a message to oil refineries around the nation that it is time they clean up,” she said. "This expansion project would not do anything to bring down gas prices right now," said Alexander. "The ConocoPhillips refinery is expanding to process Canadian tar sands oil, which is profitable only if crude prices stay high."
"We are not asking for hugely complicated or costly measures," Alexander said. "Holding flare emissions down just requires sound engineering and responsible operating practices." Without the expansion, the Wood River Refinery refines approximately 306,000 barrels of oil per day to produce gasoline, jet fuel, diesel, asphalt, propane and other products, and supplies part of the St. Louis region, Chicago, Indiana and Ohio.
So obviously the technology is in use elsewhere and ConcoPhillips just decided to try and get away with not using it, right?
Where is that an environmentalist issue? Seems like a poor industrial design issue to me. Perhaps unlike the Conoco claims that it is back to the drawing board it is more like add the control equipment and continue the project as planned? Or is Conoco going to use this as a reason why it can't make the expenditures?
Thanks for all the great material San Fran Gran Nan.
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/07/08/nancy-pelosis-latest-gaseous-emission/?print=1