Obama Tax Policies Penalize, McCain's Reward

[KD5ZPG]

.........McCain calls for no changes to today’s low rates. Obama will revert to the pre-Bush tax cut regime. Bottom line: if you’re single, making $30,000, McCain will tax you $4,500. Obama will extract $8,400 from your wallet -- almost double the take! Single making $50,000: McCain’s tax is $12,500; Obama’s is $14,000. Single making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750. Obama will bite you for $23,250.

And it’s no better if you’re married. Married making $60,000: McCain’s tax is only $9,000. Obama will hit you for $16,000. Married making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750, Obama’s $21,000. Married making $125,000: McCain’s tax is $31,250. Obama’s hit -- $38,750. Ouch, Obama! ( http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27025)


.

[WB3JLA]

And no tax for the OBAMA supporters
they make less than $20,000

[K1VSK]

Another ex of distortion in politics.
You can choose to believe EVERYTHING you read or you can use due diligence in deciding for whom you should vote. Unfortunatley, this post appears to be indicative of the syndrome of many to be easily misled and base ther choice on ignorance.

[KB9BVN]

Obama as president would be a risk to our national security. His level of inexperience has never been seen in the Whitehouse before. He ought to stay in congress for a couple of terms and get an education.

[N4VGB]

And no tax for the OBAMA supporters
they make less than $20,000

WRONG! Look at the post from K1VSK and his QRZ callsign lookup showing him sailing around Bremuda on his 41 foot sloop. Both the wealthy and the poor support Obama and for the same reason. To shaft the middle class! ;)

[w2kg]

WRONG! Look at the post from K1VSK and his QRZ callsign lookup showing him sailing around Bremuda on his 41 foot sloop. Both the wealthy and the poor support Obama and for the same reason. To shaft the middle class! ;)

If you guys really believe that an Obama presidency would be negative for the middle class, I suggest that you take a critical look at what is happening ECONOMICALLY and has happened ECONOMICALLY for the last eight years under the Bush administration. Get over the testosterone BS and consider WHY we have such high gasoline prices and why the government has done nothing to dampen their ascent even in the face of what those costs are doing to the price of foodstuffs in particular and anything else that is transported by truck to market. These prices are the result of a completely UNREGULATED market, which is precisely what enriches that tiny percentage of the population at the pinnacle of America's wealth. The slickest part is that it will allow them (of whom Mr. Bush is a member) to demand that we desecrate even more of our environment to search for raw petroleum. As I am sure you know, Adm. McCain is all for that. If you think that's a good idea, you have probably chugalugged the Kool-Aid being dispensed by the Republican Party and FoxNews that finding oil in U.S. territory will cause gas prices to plummet over night. Of course, you say, "Look to the Arab states and look at how Norway prospers!" In Norway everybody really is getting a piece of the pie and also in many Arab states, but it positively AIN'T going to happen here, boys. Because, after we, the taxpayers, bankroll the oil companies efforts to locate and extract the oil, guess who's going to own it? Uncle Sam? The American Taxpayer? Nope, Exxon or Texaco or whoever (as in private entity) pumps it out of the earth and they will sell it wherever they want for as much as they can get for it. Think gas prices will come down? Nope! That's because there isn't enough refining capacity in the U.S. and we actually IMPORT refined gasoline. Therefore gas will find its OWN high price. You can add to that what the companies can gouge and, of course, will be encouraged to do by a Republican administration. By the way, don't forget the rising demand for gasoline and petroleum products in Asia (primarily a rapidly expanding Chinese economy) and India (another booming economy). You can proudly watch the GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD sink under the weight of uncontrolled capitalist greed. When it all comes apart, those rich folks will just move on to more fertile valleys...I think they call it GLOBALIZATION? We need to close our mouths for a change and open our eyes.

:eek:

[K1VSK]

Facts are clearly irrelevent to the folks who preach this crap about tax policies and how various economic levels are treated. My guess is there is a whole group of people who cannot see beyond simple minded gasoline price solutions to understand that U.S. and global economics, in a much broader context, is something about which they have a much more integral stake and ought to be more concerned.

Unfortunatley, no one ever lost an election under-estimating the intelligence of the American public. Hence, candidates have no choice except to appeal to the lowest level of understanding.

[K1VSK]

Obama as president would be a risk to our national security. His level of inexperience has never been seen in the Whitehouse before. He ought to stay in congress for a couple of terms and get an education.

No one can actually still believe this.

If you would consider a blatent obvious example of how silly this sounds, just consider the experience level of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et.al. and undertand where that got us?

So much for experience.

You might want to consider intelligence as a measure of ability...

[w2kg]

Facts are clearly irrelevent to the folks who preach this crap about tax policies and how various economic levels are treated. My guess is there is a whole group of people who cannot see beyond simple minded gasoline price solutions to understand that U.S. and global economics, in a much broader context, is something about which they have a much more integral stake and ought to be more concerned.

Unfortunatley, no one ever lost an election under-estimating the intelligence of the American public. Hence, candidates have no choice except to appeal to the lowest level of understanding.

You managed to say what I had in mind so much more elegantly than I did and with a whole lot less WIND! Good job!

:D

[K0RGR]

Obama served in the Illiois legislature for 8 years. He has served 4 years in the U.S. Senate.

Abraham Lincoln, the last Republican candidate worth voting for, served 8 years in the Illioinois legislature, and only 2 years in the U.S. Congress. Like Obama, he was a very skilled orator.

Obama is a graduate of Harvard Law, and a former professor of Constitutional Law at a prestigious university.

Lincoln never went to college, though he did joke about having to climb through a window onto the stage for one of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates at Knox College in Illinois that "I have just gone through Knox College".

[w2kg]

.........McCain calls for no changes to today’s low rates. Obama will revert to the pre-Bush tax cut regime. Bottom line: if you’re single, making $30,000, McCain will tax you $4,500. Obama will extract $8,400 from your wallet -- almost double the take! Single making $50,000: McCain’s tax is $12,500; Obama’s is $14,000. Single making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750. Obama will bite you for $23,250.

And it’s no better if you’re married. Married making $60,000: McCain’s tax is only $9,000. Obama will hit you for $16,000. Married making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750, Obama’s $21,000. Married making $125,000: McCain’s tax is $31,250. Obama’s hit -- $38,750. Ouch, Obama! ( http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27025)


.

For those of us who are "reckless" enough to CONSIDER sources before we formulate opinions, the source of the above quotation is a website called:

"HUMAN EVENTS.COM" which labels itself proudly as: "Leading the Conservative Movement. Since 1944" Now that should warm the cockles of the hearts of all those loyal "John Birch'ers" (not to speak of a few Skinheads) out there. Who could ever question the objectivity of such a source???????? ;)

[N7RJD]

Obama as president would be a risk to our national security. His level of inexperience has never been seen in the Whitehouse before. He ought to stay in congress for a couple of terms and get an education.

As long as he surrounds himself with quality advisers and has the good sense to listen to them I don't see a problem. On the other hand if he follows recent examples he will surround himself with family friends not worth listening to and a few patsies to take the fall when idiocy reigns supreme.

No I am not an Obama supporter but get tired of all the garbage about inexperience and false religious claims. It just doesn't make sense to me to say the guy is so bad yet have to use cooked up digs to prove the case. A few more obviously "out of left field" remarks and I might just be completely convinced there is no real dirt on the guy and end up voting for him myself.

[N4VGB]

For all you Obama supporters, I actually download print and read very carefully all available literature. That is how I made my decision to not vote for Obama. On top of that, Obama has let his true self show quite clearly in many respects. Claiming Christianity when he needed it for political use but resigning from Trinity Church as soon as it was exposed as a place where "Black Liberation Theology" was practiced in place of Christianity. Obama's handlers can't let the man stray from written text for a moment and even when following written text there seems to be a void in foreign affairs knowledge within his staff, proven by his disastrous AIPAC speech. Obama is a genius at making speeches that allow his followers to believe he has said one thing when in fact he has not. Obama has made far too many promises to far too diverse a group, nobody can be all things to all people.

McCain would not have been my choice for a candidate but I find him far preferable to Obama.

[w2kg]

For all you Obama supporters, I actually download print and read very carefully all available literature. That is how I made my decision to not vote for Obama. On top of that, Obama has let his true self show quite clearly in many respects. Claiming Christianity when he needed it for political use but resigning from Trinity Church as soon as it was exposed as a place where "Black Liberation Theology" was practiced in place of Christianity. Obama's handlers can't let the man stray from written text for a moment and even when following written text there seems to be a void in foreign affairs knowledge within his staff, proven by his disastrous AIPAC speech. Obama is a genius at making speeches that allow his followers to believe he has said one thing when in fact he has not. Obama has made far too many promises to far too diverse a group, nobody can be all things to all people.

McCain would not have been my choice for a candidate but I find him far preferable to Obama.

I don't agree with your take on these matters, but I most certainly respect the apparent clarity of your reasoning. However, I don't believe that reasoning is founded on valid premises. Nevertheless it's refreshing to meet an original thinker. :)

[kb2vxa]

I see you're catching on; 60s deja vu all over again and this trip's a bummer. You're about to learn what a Trojan Horse is.

[K0FK]

Facts are clearly irrelevent to the folks who preach this crap about...I agree, but don't think you went quite far enough. First of all, what any of us believe to be facts probably aren't (excuse my fun with grammar). Second of all, facts have very limited use in either politics or religion, and in fact generally just get in the way of the objectives of either.

I once met a woman on a business trip who engaged in a political conversation with the viewpoint that we should all make more of our political choices based on fact, rather than emotion. I certainly agree, and think this sounds wonderfully obvious. The problem is, and I'm not one to believe evil conspiracies abound, we have very little clue about what constitutes fact. But, the overarching point is, politicians (governmental or religious) like it that way, and in fact depend on it.

I have been truly inspired after listening to Obama, and fairly non-impressed when listening to McCain. I give them equal points for sincerity--a few more to Obama for passion--our present idiot has not earned one point from me on either. However, while sincerity counts for a LOT in my book, what I think you can actually accomplish in a brain-dead, self-centered political environment devoid of any real concern counts for an equal amount. I'm not sure Obama can actually get much done, because I feel he's not going to face a cooperative environment to work in...if he even lived to see a full term. As in the previous two elections, my only real concern is that the winning candidate not be George Bush, so I could flip a coin this time and be okay. :)

[N4VGB]

I don't agree with your take on these matters, but I most certainly respect the apparent clarity of your reasoning. However, I don't believe that reasoning is founded on valid premises. Nevertheless it's refreshing to meet an original thinker. :)

Oh GOD, now you've really scared me. I presumed that most investigated all information available before voting. There's also a very easily verified voting record in the Senate for both candidates, but that might confuse some that don't also lookup the S-???? legislation and review it's contents with all amendments. Sometimes a very good piece of legislation ends up with so much garbage attached as amendments that it's not worth passing.

[K1VSK]

the only certainty here is that some people have no clue when it comes to their basis for selecting the candidate for whom they vote. Then they go out of their way making posts like this one to prove it!

[KD7ZRT]

.........McCain calls for no changes to today’s low rates. Obama will revert to the pre-Bush tax cut regime. Bottom line: if you’re single, making $30,000, McCain will tax you $4,500. Obama will extract $8,400 from your wallet -- almost double the take! Single making $50,000: McCain’s tax is $12,500; Obama’s is $14,000. Single making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750. Obama will bite you for $23,250.

And it’s no better if you’re married. Married making $60,000: McCain’s tax is only $9,000. Obama will hit you for $16,000. Married making $75,000: McCain’s tax is $18,750, Obama’s $21,000. Married making $125,000: McCain’s tax is $31,250. Obama’s hit -- $38,750. Ouch, Obama! ( http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27025)


.

Simply not true. See page 25 of the Tax Policy Center's report titled "A Preliminary Analysis of the 2008 Presidential Candidates’ Tax Plans (http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/411693_CandidateTaxPlans.pdf)."

[kb2vxa]

"The only certainty here is that some people have no clue when it comes to their basis for selecting the candidate for whom they vote."

Uh uh, the only certainty here is that most of you don't realize the selection has been made for you and when it comes to your vote one leg is each the same on a duck. You're totally clueless when it comes to how democratic republicanism works having been brainwashed by your Social Studies teachers as a child. I'll bet you devaluated dollars to cop's donuts you think this is a democracy because they told you so, never studied on your own and never compared US Republicanism to any other, know nothing about them and can't even come up with the names for them.

And that's the way they taught you, that's the way they want you... DUMB and full of flag waving propaganda BS! God bless America, land of the useful idiots.... now shut up and feed the pig.

[K1VSK]

[QUOTE=kb2vxa;1262987
I'll bet you devaluated dollars to cop's donuts you think this is a democracy .[/QUOTE]

Another well-informed voter heard from -
Actually, it's a republic, not a democracy.

[G8ADD]

I can't believe this parochial tripe has gone on for three pages without being consigned to the "politics" dustbin that is its true home!

Happy hustings!

Brian G8ADD

[n6hle]

It doesn't matter who we vote for in this election. Or any presidential election for that matter. Foreign policy, experience, taxation and all the other political BS that comes up during every election don't matter one bit. I could give a flying fart in outer space about all of it! The middle class has always, and will always get the raw end of the deal no matter who is in office. I have only voted once in my life, back when California axed Gray Davis and elected Arnold. As unpatriotic as it may be, until I either find myself independently wealthy or finally get gouged by the oil companies into poverty there is nothing that any candidate (presidential or otherwise) can say to make me decide to vote again.

[NL7W]

If you guys really believe that an Obama presidency would be negative for the middle class, I suggest that you take a critical look at what is happening ECONOMICALLY and has happened ECONOMICALLY for the last eight years under the Bush administration. Get over the testosterone BS and consider WHY we have such high gasoline prices and why the government has done nothing to dampen their ascent even in the face of what those costs are doing to the price of foodstuffs in particular and anything else that is transported by truck to market. These prices are the result of a completely UNREGULATED market, which is precisely what enriches that tiny percentage of the population at the pinnacle of America's wealth. The slickest part is that it will allow them (of whom Mr. Bush is a member) to demand that we desecrate even more of our environment to search for raw petroleum. As I am sure you know, Adm. McCain is all for that. If you think that's a good idea, you have probably chugalugged the Kool-Aid being dispensed by the Republican Party and FoxNews that finding oil in U.S. territory will cause gas prices to plummet over night. Of course, you say, "Look to the Arab states and look at how Norway prospers!" In Norway everybody really is getting a piece of the pie and also in many Arab states, but it positively AIN'T going to happen here, boys. Because, after we, the taxpayers, bankroll the oil companies efforts to locate and extract the oil, guess who's going to own it? Uncle Sam? The American Taxpayer? Nope, Exxon or Texaco or whoever (as in private entity) pumps it out of the earth and they will sell it wherever they want for as much as they can get for it. Think gas prices will come down? Nope! That's because there isn't enough refining capacity in the U.S. and we actually IMPORT refined gasoline. Therefore gas will find its OWN high price. You can add to that what the companies can gouge and, of course, will be encouraged to do by a Republican administration. By the way, don't forget the rising demand for gasoline and petroleum products in Asia (primarily a rapidly expanding Chinese economy) and India (another booming economy). You can proudly watch the GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD sink under the weight of uncontrolled capitalist greed. When it all comes apart, those rich folks will just move on to more fertile valleys...I think they call it GLOBALIZATION? We need to close our mouths for a change and open our eyes.

:eek:

My family is very middle-class, and I'm far better off than I was when Bush entered office! You aren't? Just what are you doing wrong?

BTW, just passing actionable laws allowing drilling extraction of high volume oil and gas areas -- showing America is willing to DO SOMETHING -- will cause speculators to realize WE are willing to do what is necessary to solve our problems -- not just sit on our hands and remain unwilling to address the growing fossil fuel energy needs of the immediate next few decades.

Uncontrolled capitalistic greed, eh? Millions of pages of U.S. based code and regulations on every form of business in this nation -- federal, state, and local governments restricting, regulating, and taxing every private and corporate business in this Nation! Some industries are so restricted, like the health care industry with it's 10's of thousands of pages of federal regulation, they're BROKEN -- an unworkable federal socialistic, private, and corporate conglomeration that integrates poorly and remains unbelievably inefficient.

Oh, can you form and divide your thoughts into separate paragraphs? Good grief! Your rant is just plain hard to read!

Try reducing interference and let the market, capitalism, and unimpeded consumerism based on price, supply, and demand work things out. Keep inefficient, grubby, bureaucrats out of the picture!

You talk of change... like Big Government Socialism, won't work here.

Try again, Charlie.

[w2kg]

:My family is very middle-class, and I'm far better off than I was when Bush entered office! You aren't? Just what are you doing wrong?

BTW, just passing actionable laws allowing drilling extraction of high volume oil and gas areas -- showing America is willing to DO SOMETHING -- will cause speculators to realize WE are willing to do what is necessary to solve our problems -- not just sit on our hands and remain unwilling to address the growing fossil fuel energy needs of the immediate next few decades.

Uncontrolled capitalistic greed, eh? Millions of pages of U.S. based code and regulations on every form of business in this nation -- federal, state, and local governments restricting, regulating, and taxing every private and corporate business in this Nation! Some industries are so restricted, like the health care industry with it's 10's of thousands of pages of federal regulation, they're BROKEN -- an unworkable federal socialistic, private, and corporate conglomeration that integrates poorly and remains unbelievably inefficient.

Oh, can you form and divide your thoughts into separate paragraphs? Good grief! Your rant is just plain hard to read!

Try reducing interference and let the market, capitalism, and unimpeded consumerism based on price, supply, and demand work things out. Keep inefficient, grubby, bureaucrats out of the picture!

You talk of change... like Big Government Socialism, won't work here.

Try again, Charlie.

Yeah, Sunshine, I can paragraph but I'm not going to do it just to suit you. Talking about "rants", you displayed a dandy. It comes as no surprise that if you are earning your living by stripping forests that you're doing well under the current administration. So are the folks in the meat and produce packing industries who no longer have adequate supervision. Wonder why we have a food poisoning crisis and recalls every couple of months? That's what the removal of "interference" does for us. The unrestrained capitalism of which you seem so enamored will land us right back into the 1880's economically. That, of course, won't bother you because of the way you appear to earn your living, but it bothers me and others who live in the developed part of the U.S.

"Some industries are so restricted, like the health care industry with it's 10's of thousands of pages of federal regulation, they're BROKEN -- an unworkable federal socialistic, private, and corporate conglomeration that integrates poorly and remains unbelievably inefficient."

From the above it is apparent that you know little to NOTHING about what you are talking about with regard to the health industry. What is broken about the health industry in our country is that people are still dying in the richest most developed country in the world because care, services and medicines are unavailable to them BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THEM. This is documented in the professional literature. That is really sick.

Why not stick to commenting on what you know about, Sunshine?

Some suggested reading for you "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. Give it a read, you're going to hate it, but a bitter pill might open your mind a little and let in some truth. Whatever you do, DON'T DRINK ANYMORE OF THAT KOOL-AID! ;)

[K1VSK]

Isn't there a remedial section on QRZ forum list or should be assume this must be it?

[N4VGB]

:
From the above it is apparent that you know little to NOTHING about what you are talking about with regard to the health industry. What is broken about the health industry in our country is that people are still dying in the richest most developed country in the world because care, services and medicines are unavailable to them BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THEM. This is documented in the professional literature. That is really sick.


We've beat this healthcare horse to death here before, but why not again. I don't know what the scene is like all over the country, I do know what it's like here. We have both private and public hospitals. Even the private hospitals will accept those in need of immediate care, even those who can't pay and have no insurance, but they will only do what is necessary and then transfer that patient to the public hospital. No hospital that is accepting public funds is allowed to turn away anyone and most of these public hospitals also have a clinic for outpatients and a free pharmacy also.

With all the free programs for those who can't afford to pay for healthcare, I don't who all these folks that are claimed to be dying could possibly be? I don't even live in a major metro area with a ton of federal programs going on all around me and I don't know how we could possibly have a better healthcare setup here than elsewhere in America?

[K1VSK]

:

people are still dying in the richest most developed country in the world because care, services and medicines are unavailable to them BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THEM. This is documented in the professional literature.

Please cite specific references to which you refer in the above.

[NL7W]

:

Yeah, Sunshine, I can paragraph but I'm not going to do it just to suit you. Talking about "rants", you displayed a dandy. It comes as no surprise that if you are earning your living by stripping forests that you're doing well under the current administration. So are the folks in the meat and produce packing industries who no longer have adequate supervision. Wonder why we have a food poisoning crisis and recalls every couple of months? That's what the removal of "interference" does for us. The unrestrained capitalism of which you seem so enamored will land us right back into the 1880's economically. That, of course, won't bother you because of the way you appear to earn your living, but it bothers me and others who live in the developed part of the U.S.

"Some industries are so restricted, like the health care industry with it's 10's of thousands of pages of federal regulation, they're BROKEN -- an unworkable federal socialistic, private, and corporate conglomeration that integrates poorly and remains unbelievably inefficient."

From the above it is apparent that you know little to NOTHING about what you are talking about with regard to the health industry. What is broken about the health industry in our country is that people are still dying in the richest most developed country in the world because care, services and medicines are unavailable to them BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THEM. This is documented in the professional literature. That is really sick.

Why not stick to commenting on what you know about, Sunshine?

Some suggested reading for you "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. Give it a read, you're going to hate it, but a bitter pill might open your mind a little and let in some truth. Whatever you do, DON'T DRINK ANYMORE OF THAT KOOL-AID! ;)

My wife landed in the local emergency room a couple of days ago, the new Mat-Su Regional Medical Center, right around the corner in my house. As part of the release statement I signed, was a paragraph stating that treatment would not be denied to anyone, regardless of ability to pay, insurance status, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Not a bad deal, eh?

Please tell me, dear Sir, where in our Declaration of Independence, Constitution, Bill or Rights, or U.S. Code does the Government is obligated to fund individuals' health care costs? I know... it doesn't. The looney leftists on the Hill have been trying to incorporate a constitutional amendment to do this for quite awhile now. Their desire for a Big Government, socialistic, equally bad, health care system for everyone makes me "sick". Unearned health care entitlements for a nation of 300+ million will be our undoing.

Here's a fine example of the unsustainable "unearned entitlements" from Perot's new website:

http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges31-640.png
"The term tipping point can be applied to a process in which, beyond a certain point, the rate at which the process continues will increase dramatically. The budget of the United States has reached its tipping point. A recent event could have, in fact, marked the point in time. The first Baby Boomer—born January 1, 1946—has applied for early retirement at age 62 and received her first Social Security check. On the chart, an upturn in the Medicare growth rate can be detected in 2011 when the first Baby Boomers turn 65. Thereafter, the number of retirees continues to increase while the number of workers per retiree continues to decrease. The pyramid scheme has collapsed."

Ref: http://perotcharts.com/category/challenges/medicare-and-medicaid/

Now, shall I quote the dismal communist and socialist health care systems of the past -- quoting their history? I've been there and done that... and am willing to do it again.

Personally, I am thankful for the many choices all Americans have regarding health care. I am thankful my employer offers quality health care coverage choices -- I chose the most expensive, best coverage plan for my family. It is well worth every penny I dish out every month.

I am thankful for the myriad of choices I have regarding health care clinics, specialists, and hospitals available to my family and I, even here in Alaska. I am thankful for second and third opinions, if needed. You'll never have this ability once the feds control all aspects of health care. You'll be stuck in a dismal, rationed, and irrefutable federal nightmare.

I am thankful for my early realization of personal responsibility, and my obligation to my family for adequate services later in life. I earned my limited, yet mediocre, dental and health care rights by retiring from our Nation's Military -- 21 years of Active Duty and Air Guard service.

Other respectable civilian careers of service throughout our Nation offer similar retirement pay and earned benefits packages. These civilian retirement packages offer greater choices in the quality health care establishments -- more so than my little out-of-pocket, military (federal) health care entitlement come age sixty. A good example would be my mother's retirement package from the Davenport, Iowa Community School District, where she earned her excellent benefits.

I stand on this: Our Federal Government doesn't really owe you, or any other citizen for that matter, much of anything... other than the ability to pursue your life, your liberty, and happiness with as little interference as possible. Despite the many bloated and unearned government entitlements doled out to our citizens dazed and drunk on them, blanket health care coverage was never part of the 'deal'.

We are not socialists or communists. If you wish to rely on nanny-state, poor to mediocre health care, move to Canada, France, or Cuba. One final thought... grow some -- promote personal responsibility and self reliance. Government's 'nanny-state' reliance and utopia don't mix. :D

Try again... and toodles.

[n2ize]

:

Yeah, Sunshine, I can paragraph but I'm not going to do it just to suit you. Talking about "rants", you displayed a dandy. It comes as no surprise that if you are earning your living by stripping forests that you're doing well under the current administration. So are the folks in the meat and produce packing industries who no longer have adequate supervision. Wonder why we have a food poisoning crisis and recalls every couple of months? That's what the removal of "interference" does for us. The unrestrained capitalism of which you seem so enamored will land us right back into the 1880's economically. That, of course, won't bother you because of the way you appear to earn your living, but it bothers me and others who live in the developed part of the U.S.

"Some industries are so restricted, like the health care industry with it's 10's of thousands of pages of federal regulation, they're BROKEN -- an unworkable federal socialistic, private, and corporate conglomeration that integrates poorly and remains unbelievably inefficient."

From the above it is apparent that you know little to NOTHING about what you are talking about with regard to the health industry. What is broken about the health industry in our country is that people are still dying in the richest most developed country in the world because care, services and medicines are unavailable to them BECAUSE THEY CAN'T PAY FOR THEM. This is documented in the professional literature. That is really sick.

Why not stick to commenting on what you know about, Sunshine?

Some suggested reading for you "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. Give it a read, you're going to hate it, but a bitter pill might open your mind a little and let in some truth. Whatever you do, DON'T DRINK ANYMORE OF THAT KOOL-AID! ;)

I hope you're not expecting a sensible answer to anything you've said above ? :D

[KE4FES]

Obama served in the Illiois legislature for 8 years. He has served 4 years in the U.S. Senate.

Abraham Lincoln, the last Republican candidate worth voting for, served 8 years in the Illioinois legislature, and only 2 years in the U.S. Congress. Like Obama, he was a very skilled orator.

Obama is a graduate of Harvard Law, and a former professor of Constitutional Law at a prestigious university.

Lincoln never went to college, though he did joke about having to climb through a window onto the stage for one of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates at Knox College in Illinois that "I have just gone through Knox College".
DO I UNDERSTAND YOU ? OBAMA IS EQUAL TO LINCOLN ?
Incidentaly; NOT everyone considers Lincoln or other Republicans as having been "great". ALSO; THE VAST MAJORITY , doesn't know what our civil war was about,
was not slavery- freeing slaves was not the root cause .
SHAME; it should have been ! THIS world still has slavery . IS the USA FREEING ANY OF THEM ?? NO.

I do not like McCain,,, Obama MUCH LESS. Yes that's MY problem--a situation resulting by actions of OTHERS.
Maybe next election ??? DOUBT IT, same dumb voters plus their recuits....

Charlie

[AC0H]

http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/Obama.JPG

[w2kg]

This is really getting interesting and it's nice to see so much SENSIBLE argument! Let me try to answer some of these objections and questions. Forgive me if I miss anybody, because I undoubtedly will. First, however, let me address Steve up in AK.

"I am thankful for my early realization of personal responsibility, and my obligation to my family for adequate services later in life. I earned my limited, yet mediocre, dental and health care rights by retiring from our Nation's Military -- 21 years of Active Duty and Air Guard service."

I enjoy the same privilege after 26 years of Naval service including a stint in the Army. I also bought the appropriate annuity insurance to ensure my XYL continued support after my death. (Steve knows what I'm talking about here.)

Regarding those who die because of an inability to access care, specifically, I am talking of those people who cannot afford to purchase their prescriptions. I know this happens because of my ministry. This is a greater problem than folks actually receiving care from a medical professional, because as was pointed out by someone, you usually can get to an emergency room. Preventive and after care are probably the most critical areas. Some one asked for specific cases. That's none of anyone's business, which, of course, will imply to some that I'm full of s**t. Oh well! If you don't know any poor people then I guess such conditions will remain mythic for you.

(Let me inject here that I am both a heart and a cancer patient and I know that in my part of the world, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE for me to have received the level of surgery and care that I have received WITHOUT insurance.)

I think it was Steve who commented that the Constitution doesn't make it mandatory that the Government provide for anyone's health. That's true, but a far higher imperative than the Government calls us to care for the less fortunate and THAT'S the nub here. Many of us BLAME the poor for their condition. It's particularly easy to do that when we are flush and contented, but it is nevertheless illogical. Everyone who is poor is not a bum or an alcoholic or a drug addict. The reasons for most of our poverty would require too much wind to explain in this forum. Do a little research on your own or sit in the darkness...it's up to you. Read "Les Miserables" or "The Jungle".

This is getting too long, so let me shorten it up. Back to my friend Steve up north. He cited his service, etc. and the benefits he has truly and honorably earned as a result. Well, as I said, I enjoy all of the same. HOWEVER, if we hadn't been healthy and intelligent enough to qualify for the military service, we might very well NOT be enjoying anything near the PRIVILEGES we have. The health and native intelligence are GOD GIVEN, the education that permitted me to pass the entrance examinations were GOVERNMENT given. All I did was USE what was given to me freely. That, in my opinion, does not a hero make. On the other hand, it should and does in my case, elicit GRATITUDE.

My whole point here is that you have to stop with the statistics and testosterone bombast and place yourself in the position of the person who has not benefitted from the same history and health that you have. Get rid of the labels "Communist", "Socialist", "Liberal", and "Conservative" and THINK and reason INDEPENDENTLY as human beings. Contemplate the poor. When we stay locked into ideologies which BY DEFINITION stifle reason (regardless if they be "Capitalist" or "Socialist" or what have you), then we cause the weak to suffer. Let that suffering touch you once or twice and you're perspective will soften....I hope. That's it, fellas! Have a ball!! May God bless you all.

;)

[w2kg]

http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/Obama.JPG

Excellent point!! It's what I mean about "ideologies". They stink!

[K1VSK]

This thread started when someone quoted a frivilous account of each candidate's tax concept. Little did I realize that would be the intellictually high point of this conversation.

[N4VGB]

That's it, fellas! Have a ball!! May God bless you all.


Thanks for the blessing, we all need as many as GOD is willing to bestow upon us.

Perhaps your religious side sees something in "universal national healthcare" of any form that is in truth not there? Charity is charged upon the individual, not the nations.

No candidate has ever offered up a healthcare plan that would not be a tremendous financial burden upon the people of the U.S. It would in fact be the most expensive undertaking in U.S. history, eclipsing all SS costs and even the costs of war.

Mr. Obama's healthcare plan is not one of "socialized medicine" at all but is a "national healthcare insurance" plan administered by private insurance companies.

There is nothing free in this world, someone always has to pay. There's no righteous charity involved in such plans, just more forced taxation.