McCain sidesteps answer about his faith

[KG4JYD]

While McCain was in Nashville on Monday at the town hall meeting someone asked him "what or who is the supreme authority in your life, and how will it be evident in your presidency"?


McCain told a nice story, BUT NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION. Not only that he never even used the words "God" or "Jesus" or even anything remotely within the ball park.

The sad thing was the story was so touching and moving that most of the crowd DIDN'T REALIZE HE AVOIDED THE QUESTION!!!!


This guy is worse than Slick Willy. Does someone like this deserve your vote? I know he won't be getting my vote.

You can listen to the audio clip of this here:
http://www.7616millbridge.com/temp/McCain_sidesteps_answer_on_faith.mp3

[KU0DM]

I personally could care less.

I don't care if we have an atheist or Catholic in the White house. As long as they make policies and run the country fairly, great! I feel when you introduce Religion that you begin to encounter problems with partisan policies based on your faith, and begin to deny rights or maybe not include other religious groups in decisions that will effect them.

[KG4JYD]

I honestly don't care what his answer is either.

I'm torqued that he avoided the question! He manipulated the crowd and intentionally confused his answer leading people down the path of some story about his time in HH.

I wouldn't be upset even if he said "that's a personal matter, I prefer not to answer it".

But avoiding the issue and misleading people is just the sort of tactics that Clinton (both of them) use. I will not vote for someone who's character is that flawed. If we can't trust him to answer a simple and run of the mill question like that, then how can we trust him with other issues?

[K3XR]

Oh well....What else can you do when you run out of Ron Paul material??

[KP3FT]

I personally could care less.

I don't care if we have an atheist or Catholic in the White house. As long as they make policies and run the country fairly, great! I feel when you introduce Religion that you begin to encounter problems with partisan policies based on your faith, and begin to deny rights or maybe not include other religious groups in decisions that will effect them.

I feel we need more "religion" in government, at least leaders who have a genuine fear and respect for the Christian God and who appeal to Him as the original law-giver, not the pseudo-Christians that keep getting in power. Since the very beginning the United States leaders appealed to a higher power than themselves for guidance. The Declaration of Independence mentions our "Creator" giving us certain rights, and for over two centuries Congress has been opened with a prayer to God, starting with their very first session. For what purpose would they pray to a higher being other than looking for guidance? The U.S. "introduced religion" from the very start. We began sliding downhill when we distanced ourselves from God and looked only to ourselves as the supreme authority. Over one million babies killed every year, 3900 every day, 162 every hour, roughly three every minute, because the majority of the Supreme Court at the time of Roe vs. Wade forgot about a higher authority.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Declaration of Independence, 1776, with 56 signatures.

[KU0DM]

What about greater respect for other supreme beings in religion? How can we maintain a truly independent, and free country when our government is highly involved in religion that often insists on interjecting and instructing on how to live one's life?

I'm fine with religion, but I'm not when we combine religion with politics. I feel that if it is evident of your religion in your administration, that you are running a partisan administration. If people can look at your administration, and based on policies see that religion is a big factor, I think that then you begin to have problems with the true fairness, true equality that our leaders are representing. Especially when the Churches and different religions take very decisive and vocal stances on major political subjects, then I feel it can be easy to resort to injecting your religion's views into your policies.

That isn't true and equal. That is a puppet show! With the manipulator being your religious beliefs.

Why? No one has the same religious beliefs. If we tried running our nation based on Christianity, what do we say to Islam, Judaism, and other religious groups and movements? "All men are created equal", in many religious beliefs that isn't so. For instance, gay marriage. There is NO reason to object to that except our religions tells us too. It is apparent that religion is running the Bush administration and many other conservatives based on the fact they say "God says it's wrong". But which God? Which religion? Aren't all men created equal? Well, the Church doesn't seem to think so.

[n7wr]

I agree with KP3FT. This nation did just fine when for well over the first 150 years of its existence by being ONE NATION UNDER GOD and by asking our Creator to bestow his blessings upon us as a Nation. We did just fine when the pledge of allegiance was recited daily, with ONE NATION UNDER GOD included, in our public school classrooms. We did just fine as a nation when our laws and judicial interpretations of those laws conformed to the 10 Commandments. It was when we kicked the Supreme Being out, and began legislating away from God's Law (Roe v Wade, gay marriage, embyonic stem cell research etc) and when we as humans began to think we were gods ourselves that things began to head into the toilet quickly. Today's politicians, almost all of them, promise that they can make anything happen. When a disaster (that no human could predict or prevent) happens we now blame those humans holding elected office. We think we are in total control when in fact some things are ordered by God. A look at history (ancient Rome, etc.) tells us that a society which puts God second (or worse) is one doomed to collapse. A shame that we haven't learned from the mistakes of others.

[KP3FT]

What about greater respect for other supreme beings in religion? How can we maintain a truly independent, and free country when our government is highly involved in religion that often insists on interjecting and instructing on how to live one's life?

I'm fine with religion, but I'm not when we combine religion with politics. I feel that if it is evident of your religion in your administration, that you are running a partisan administration. If people can look at your administration, and based on policies see that religion is a big factor, I think that then you begin to have problems with the true fairness, true equality that our leaders are representing. Especially when the Churches and different religions take very decisive and vocal stances on major political subjects, then I feel it can be easy to resort to injecting your religion's views into your policies.

That isn't true and equal. That is a puppet show! With the manipulator being your religious beliefs.

Why? No one has the same religious beliefs. If we tried running our nation based on Christianity, what do we say to Islam, Judaism, and other religious groups and movements? "All men are created equal", in many religious beliefs that isn't so. For instance, gay marriage. There is NO reason to object to that except our religions tells us too. It is apparent that religion is running the Bush administration and many other conservatives based on the fact they say "God says it's wrong". But which God? Which religion? Aren't all men created equal? Well, the Church doesn't seem to think so.

I understand exactly your point of view. First, every government in existence has rules and laws such that not everyone will be happy. The old saying goes something like "you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of people all of the time." There's no way around that. Also, every person alive is "religious" to some degree, in that they have their own private world-view, but we cannot practice everything we wish. It's simply not possible. Again, the U.S. in the beginning was, without a doubt, recognizing a higher authority than man himself. The God that the original founders recognized was the God of the Bible, along with some of the moral rules that God laid down. They did not mandate the Bible as the rule book however. Sure, we can respect other religion's gods, but then by doing that we are not respecting the Christian God. By respecting only secular humanist beliefs we make or change laws which are in direct conflict with different religions. To get to the point you are suggesting, we would be a nation in chaos, everyone free to do what they wish. I use the abortion issue again as an example of how far we can take the idea of Man as the highest authority. When we do this, everything is open to change and relativism. Regarding the gay-marriage issue... gay marriage was not an issue in the beginning of our country, and it was (and is) considered immoral. Now the line between immorality and morality is being moved from it's original place by those not satisfied with the original.

[N4VGB]

You can listen to the audio clip of this here:
http://www.7616millbridge.com/temp/McCain_sidesteps_answer_on_faith.mp3


Yes indeed, please listen to the audio. It says so much more than your ridiculous post. ;)

[kq9j]

How about this for a change:

I alone am responsible for my actions. I do not expect anyone or anything to reveal the proper course of action to me. Likewise, I cannot blame anyone or anything for the consequences of my actions. I do not act with expectation of reward, or under fear of punishment. I will do what I believe is right for the people of the United States and uphold those principles and goals I have campaigned on. I will base my administration on the principles of the Constitution of the United States and will always remember that I am responsible to the people and will be judged by them.

This question was designed to trap him. It's time we junk superstition as a qualification for office.

[KU0DM]

Yes indeed, please listen to the audio. It says so much more than your ridiculous post. ;)

Not really.
He didn't say who he recognized as his supreme being, as well as didn't state in any way it would be evident in his administration except for the fact he thought about this one guy.

Interesting story though, I have to admit,

[KG6JTB]

I feel we need more "religion" in government, at least leaders who have a genuine fear and respect for the Christian God and who appeal to Him as the original law-giver, not the pseudo-Christians that keep getting in power. Since the very beginning the United States leaders appealed to a higher power than themselves for guidance. The Declaration of Independence mentions our "Creator" giving us certain rights, and for over two centuries Congress has been opened with a prayer to God, starting with their very first session. For what purpose would they pray to a higher being other than looking for guidance? The U.S. "introduced religion" from the very start. We began sliding downhill when we distanced ourselves from God and looked only to ourselves as the supreme authority. Over one million babies killed every year, 3900 every day, 162 every hour, roughly three every minute, because the majority of the Supreme Court at the time of Roe vs. Wade forgot about a higher authority.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Declaration of Independence, 1776, with 56 signatures.

Hold on there…

We hold these truths to be "self-evident" speaks to secular reasoning. Christian doctrine doesn't support this kind of thinking. It's not by god's right that we have liberty, but by reason and enlightened intellect. The "Creator" can be anything up to interpretation, like nature, not just a Christian god.

You better get your history right. Men like Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were enlightened men, not religious or modern day Evangelicals. Many other framers of the constitution were Deists, not Christians. Some were agnostic and atheist.

Also, the Declaration of Independence has no bearing on our current laws or those of the time. It's a notice of separation from England. Please cite something from the Constitution that is more religiously profound; I bet you will not find anything supporting a religious state.

[KG4JYD]

It's time we junk superstition as a qualification for office.That's not the point at hand. The point at hand is that we have a weasel who squirmed out of answering a question and was so slick about it few people in the audience noticed.


That's the real problem here....

[KP3FT]

Hold on there…

We hold these truths to be "self-evident" speaks to secular reasoning. Christian doctrine doesn't support this kind of thinking. It's not by god's right that we have liberty, but by reason and enlightened intellect. The "Creator" can be anything up to interpretation, like nature, not just a Christian god.

Hi Dave,
I don't advocate a state-mandated religion, and I'm not saying that the U.S. does. Not even God did that; he gave all people free will and a choice.
It's stretching interpretation to the limits to suggest "Creator" was meant to mean anything including nature. First, it makes no sense to even include the word if it can mean anything, and second, why the capital "C"? Also, there's so many quotes from the original founders showing their belief in the specific God of the Bible, there's no question who they meant. One of the greatest proofs of this is the simple fact that Congress, from their very first session, started their sessions with a prayer to God. They still do this today. If this had never been practiced, do you think it would be successfully introduced today? It's extremely unlikely, given all the hysteria over things like having the Ten Commandments displayed in public buildings, Nativity scenes, "religious" music being played at public events, etc. This tells me that the U.S. statesmen of "then" had a much different view of a higher authority than they do "now".
Christian doctrine does indeed support "this kind of thinking" regarding the quote in the Declaration of Independence:

Ecclesiastes 3:12 "I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life."
Ecclesiastes 3:13 "And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God."
Acts 17:26 "And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

You better get your history right. Men like Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were enlightened men, not religious or modern day Evangelicals. Many other framers of the constitution were Deists, not Christians. Some were agnostic and atheist.
I'm aware of the controversy regarding their particular beliefs, and we could trade back and forth with proof-text quotes all day long, but I'd rather not because it won't get us anywhere. One quote shows a supposed agnostic mentioning his belief in God, then another quote shows a supposed Christian sounding more like a deist. Again, "Creator" is mentioned, and prayer in Congress. These two very public and well-known facts should lay to rest the notion that the U.S. was, and should be, void of any religious influence. Here's the text of the first prayer in Congress, at Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia, September 7th, 1774. There's no question which God they are praying to, and they asked for God to direct their meeting. Imagine this practice being introduced today! Highly doubtful.

"Be Thou present; O God of Wisdom, and direct the councils of this Honorable Assembly: enable them to settle all things on the best and surest foundations: that the scene of blood may be speedily closed: that Order, Harmony and Peace may be effectually restored, and Truth, and Justice, Religion, and Piety prevail and flourish among the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and the vigor of their minds, shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal Blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting Glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ Thy Son and Our Savior. Amen"

Also, the Declaration of Independence has no bearing on our current laws or those of the time. It's a notice of separation from England. Please cite something from the Constitution that is more religiously profound; I bet you will not find anything supporting a religious state.
You are reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm making a single point; the U.S., from the beginning, appealed to a higher power than Man. The U.S. did not mandate a state-religion, otherwise it would be in the Constitution, and again, I personally do not advocate a state-religion.

[N9MOQ]

. .

[KG4JYD]

Former Presidential candidate Harry Browne was often asked the same question, and also the question of what he thought about abortion. He correctly responded that his personal beleifs on those issues had nothing to do with considering him for president.And even though I may or may not have agreed with Harry on those issues, the fact that he answered the question in that fashion gives him credibility and respect. Contrast that to the slippery snake McCain.

In fact I'm calling McCain out as a COWARD on this for avoiding the question!

[N4VGB]

You better get your history right. Men like Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin were enlightened men, not religious or modern day Evangelicals. Many other framers of the constitution were Deists, not Christians. Some were agnostic and atheist.


You are aware that Deists also believe in GOD? ;)

[KG4JYD]

You are aware that Deists also believe in GOD? ;)Deism is a very logical enlightenment era concept.

[N4VGB]

Deism is a very logical enlightenment era concept.

I see you side stepped the question, apparently the rules for you are somewhat different than those you apply to John McCain? :rolleyes:

[KG4JYD]

I see you side stepped the question, apparently the rules for you are somewhat different than those you apply to John McCain? :rolleyes:What question are you talking about? I must've missed it

[AE6IP]

hese two very public and well-known facts should lay to rest the notion that the U.S. was, and should be, void of any religious influence.

The founders got a lot right, but they also got a lot wrong. Slavery and the franchise come to minds as areas in which they were improved upon.

While superstition still abounds in the world it will remain difficult to free us of its influences, but just because the founders included among them the traditions of superstition does not mean that we should any more continue those traditions than that we should continue to uphold slavery or deny the franchise to women.

[N4VGB]

Amazing how our "freedom of religion" can be turned upon us as being "freedom from religion". :eek:

I can see the separatist movement of Christianity gaining strength by the day. More and more remote communities/cities, isolated from the rest of America are sure to come. :eek:

[KP3FT]

The founders got a lot right, but they also got a lot wrong. Slavery and the franchise come to minds as areas in which they were improved upon.

While superstition still abounds in the world it will remain difficult to free us of its influences, but just because the founders included among them the traditions of superstition does not mean that we should any more continue those traditions than that we should continue to uphold slavery or deny the franchise to women.

Comparing their Christian faith to such evils as slavery and denying women's rights is a bit odd, but it may surprise you that I agree that their Christian tradition does not mandate that our government do the same. One of the great things about our country is our liberty. The U.S. is free to utterly reject God in every conceivable way, and we are doing just that as the years go by. Just watch out, because the world will be an ugly, ugly place without God.
I am making the point that government and religion have been connected since the very beginning. It's only recently that secularism has been more and more acceptable and preferable to replace any and all religious influence in our government. I personally wouldn't trust a politician whose arrogance and naivety leads him to believe that Man is the highest authority and has enough power, self-control, and desire to simply do what's right. History has shown otherwise. And yes, there are many religious leaders who have done and are doing terrible things, but what they do is contrary to their alleged faith. In other words, their true faith is in themselves, not in their "religion".

[KG4JYD]

I can see the separatist movement of Christianity gaining strength by the day. More and more remote communities/cities, isolated from the rest of America are sure to come. :eek:Don't worry.. the feds will rush in and invade them, take their children, and burn the place down. It happened under Clinton, and Bush II.

[N4VGB]

I personally wouldn't trust a politician whose arrogance and naivety leads him to believe that Man is the highest authority and has enough power, self-control, and desire to simply do what's right.


Ouch, bet that stung about 75% of QRZ posters! ;)

[KP3FT]

Amazing how our "freedom of religion" can be turned upon us as being "freedom from religion". :eek:

I can see the separatist movement of Christianity gaining strength by the day. More and more remote communities/cities, isolated from the rest of America are sure to come. :eek:

Amen...
It's interesting to see more and more how Christians are seen to be the "bad guys". It reminds me of the following:

Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Isaiah 5:21 "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!"

[N4VGB]

Amen...


So you ain't buying the "we are masters of the universe" line either? :D

Congratulations. :D