Curious about DX spotter sites & propagation

[KC0MS]

I will oftentimes peruse through some of the better known DX spotter sites on the web, just to see what's going on propagation wise and find myself asking the same question over and over.

Which is, WHY does it seem that there is DX propagation all over the world on ALL the HF bands including 10m, EXCEPT here in the USA?

[N2RJ]

Because there is. You just need a good antenna.

Europe is a different case though. They are physically closer to a lot of DX entities that we aren't.

[A71AN]

I will oftentimes peruse through some of the better known DX spotter sites on the web, just to see what's going on propagation wise and find myself asking the same question over and over.

Which is, WHY does it seem that there is DX propagation all over the world on ALL the HF bands including 10m, EXCEPT here in the USA?

Hundrads of US stations heard here every day during our late evening, you have to pick the right time for the opening and be there my friend.

I contacted this week a us mobile station and been mobile wise myself contacted by a us station, either way, so these day no complain, I worked us on 20, 15,17,30 and 40 meters so far.

All of the best my friend

[KC0MS]

Because there is. You just need a good antenna.

You mean better than my TH7DX at 100'? Of course, I'll start looking for a replacement immediately.

Europe is a different case though. They are physically closer to a lot of DX entities that we aren't.

Well, at least that makes better sense.

[KC0MS]

Hundrads of US stations heard here every day during our late evening, you have to pick the right time for the opening and be there my friend.

I contacted this week a us mobile station and been mobile wise myself contacted by a us station, either way, so these day no complain, I worked us on 20, 15,17,30 and 40 meters so far.

All of the best my friend


Yes, I suppose being in the right place at the right time, makes all the difference.....let me ask you in all honesty, are these stations that you worked (so easily) only in states like New York and Florida, or all over the mainland USA?

As far as I am concerned, except on very rare occasions, DX is all but non-existent here in the upper Midwest (Iowa) and has been for many years.

[N2RJ]

You mean better than my TH7DX at 100'?

Yes. Your TH7 isn't as good an antenna as you think.

I hear a lot that a lot of others with Force 12 and HyGain antennas don't hear. Some of those guys have their antennas higher than mine.

3Y0E for example - bouvet island, 100 watts and a vertical - we heard him, worked him (twice, once for me, and once the XYL worked him) on the first call. Meanwhile my compatriots in NNJ or other places for that matter didn't hear a peep. They had to wait a couple weeks for a good opening, and that opening happened while I was at work, so I am thankful that my SteppIR brings in the DX that others don't.

[NN3W]

Yes. Your TH7 isn't as good an antenna as you think.

I hear a lot that a lot of others with Force 12 and HyGain antennas don't hear. Some of those guys have their antennas higher than mine.

3Y0E for example - bouvet island, 100 watts and a vertical - we heard him, worked him (twice, once for me, and once the XYL worked him) on the first call. Meanwhile my compatriots in NNJ or other places for that matter didn't hear a peep. They had to wait a couple weeks for a good opening, and that opening happened while I was at work, so I am thankful that my SteppIR brings in the DX that others don't.

Something folks need to remember is the expansiveness of the country and North America's overall makeup dictates what often gets spotted. You're in W3, you hear a W5 in Houston. 1200 miles. Its a W5, so many hams thing "so what"?

Now put yourself in Amsterdam and calculate 1200 miles - about 60 countries in reach of you. For DXers, thats a lot of countries.

[KC6ZLV]

Part of the reason for your oberservations is that the geomagnetic equator is further north in Europe, so the MUF is a little higher at the same latitudes.

I'm sure part of the reason is few Americans aren't really interested in anything other than what they can put on their mp3 players, or watching DVDs.

[ve2nsm]

Yes. Your TH7 isn't as good an antenna as you think.

I hear a lot that a lot of others with Force 12 and HyGain antennas don't hear. Some of those guys have their antennas higher than mine.

3Y0E for example - bouvet island, 100 watts and a vertical - we heard him, worked him (twice, once for me, and once the XYL worked him) on the first call. Meanwhile my compatriots in NNJ or other places for that matter didn't hear a peep. They had to wait a couple weeks for a good opening, and that opening happened while I was at work, so I am thankful that my SteppIR brings in the DX that others don't.

Aw c'mon Ryan, you see, this I don't buy.

There's no magical antenna, a beam at 100' is a beam at 100', give or take a couple of dBs, but a monster monoband yagi does not have more than 4, let's say 5dB gain over a standard 3 el. multiband.
Certainly not so that you can work a station with one and not hear a peep with the other.
It can certainly have better F/B, beamwidth, bandwidth but forward gain is really the least important figure whan comparing beams. Unfortunately that's the number most people give the most value to.

I believe your statement when you say your work people others don't, but you could take down your steppir and install a TH7 and I can guarantee your log book will be the same.
Probably your antenna has many _obvious_ advantages but the claim you make about working stations that others can't is related to your geographical situation and other factors directly related to your QTH (ground, HOAT, QRN and the like) not to the forward gain of your beam.

Forward gain is good, but the difference between an HF beam and another HF beam is very small. Especially between a 3el. monobander and a TH7.
We're not talking about a 17 elements on a 30' boom on VHF.

[NN3W]

Its not only a matter of gain, its a matter of the angle at which a signal arrives. In winter during cycle bottom, you can sometimes eek out a QSO using a ray gun yagi (i.e., 7+ elements at VERY HIGH heights) that even a stack of yagis at lower heights will not hear. I'm talking arrival angles of 3 to 5 degrees.

When I operate DX tests from N3HBX, I can hear stuff using the 7 element 10 meter yagi at 200 feet that I simply cannot hear using his stack of 8 over 8 over 8 - the tallest of which is at 120 feet.

And I would argue that 4 dB is not negligible when the signals are negligible to begin with.

[ve2nsm]

Its not only a matter of gain, its a matter of the angle at which a signal arrives. In winter during cycle bottom, you can sometimes eek out a QSO using a ray gun yagi (i.e., 7+ elements at VERY HIGH heights) that even a stack of yagis at lower heights will not hear. I'm talking arrival angles of 3 to 5 degrees.

When I operate DX tests from N3HBX, I can hear stuff using the 7 element 10 meter yagi at 200 feet that I simply cannot hear using his stack of 8 over 8 over 8 - the tallest of which is at 120 feet.

Absolutely agree, I was implying replacing a yagi with another yagi at the same spot in a given tower.

And 4 dB could make a difference... of 4 dB over a noise level.
About 99% of the time the QSB on any given signal is more, way more than 4dB so you can say that with one beam you may hear "slightly better" but I don't believe in the "one beam hears it and the other one doesn't" story.
Remember I'm talking about comparison of two antennas at the exact same place, at the exact same heigth, heading at the exact same direction.

I had so many arguments over the years with "antenna testers" and the placebo effect (don't laugh).
I stated realizing this the day where I removed a 10m 9' boom 3el monobander and replaced it with a 22' boom 5el on the same band, only to find that I was copying everybody the same way, except this guy that was 100mi away who was slightly stronger.... or was he?

I had a lot more F/B and beamwidth though :D

[AC0FP]

The first answer you will get is "your antenna sucks" with posts like this.

The second is why don't you put up a monster tower with monster antenna and get an amplifier while your at it! The spots right now are generally given by stations which fit one or more of the categorizes above.

Bands (higher frequencies) above 40 meters are not good for low power propagation in this part of the sunspot cycle. Your location doesn't help any either, so just wait until the Sun comes to life and be patient.

[N2RJ]

Aw c'mon Ryan, you see, this I don't buy.

There's no magical antenna, a beam at 100' is a beam at 100', give or take a couple of dBs, but a monster monoband yagi does not have more than 4, let's say 5dB gain over a standard 3 el. multiband.
Certainly not so that you can work a station with one and not hear a peep with the other.
It can certainly have better F/B, beamwidth, bandwidth but forward gain is really the least important figure whan comparing beams. Unfortunately that's the number most people give the most value to.

I never said anything about forward gain. You did.

I believe your statement when you say your work people others don't, but you could take down your steppir and install a TH7 and I can guarantee your log book will be the same.

Maybe, maybe not. What I will say (and this is purely anecdotal) is that others in better locations (modeled via HFTA) but with F12 and HyGain antennas can't hear stations I hear. So something else is at work. I can't exactly say what it is, but it sure sounds like the antenna.

Probably your antenna has many _obvious_ advantages but the claim you make about working stations that others can't is related to your geographical situation and other factors directly related to your QTH (ground, HOAT, QRN and the like) not to the forward gain of your beam.

I'll probably give you QRN, HAAT isn't all that good, it's about 45m or so.

Forward gain is good, but the difference between an HF beam and another HF beam is very small. Especially between a 3el. monobander and a TH7.
We're not talking about a 17 elements on a 30' boom on VHF.

Right, but I know that already. YOU are the one bringing up forward gain.

I don't play the gain game, and I really didn't think about gain when I bought my antenna. I was mostly concerned about front to back. In speaking with K7IR I learned quite a lot about SteppIR and yagi antennas in general. In speaking with other hams, I learned a lot about trapped and interlaced yagis. It is based on these varied opinions that I made my choice.

[ve2nsm]

I don't play the gain game, and I really didn't think about gain when I bought my antenna. I was mostly concerned about front to back. In speaking with K7IR I learned quite a lot about SteppIR and yagi antennas in general. In speaking with other hams, I learned a lot about trapped and interlaced yagis. It is based on these varied opinions that I made my choice.

And it seems to be a good choice, the antenna really has advantages, I only reacted to your first comment:
Yes. Your TH7 isn't as good an antenna as you think.

I hear a lot that a lot of others with Force 12 and HyGain antennas don't hear. Some of those guys have their antennas higher than mine.

It struck me as beeing oversimplified and arrogant. I mean, you know better.

[N2RJ]

And it seems to be a good choice, the antenna really has advantages, I only reacted to your first comment:
Yes. Your TH7 isn't as good an antenna as you think.

I hear a lot that a lot of others with Force 12 and HyGain antennas don't hear. Some of those guys have their antennas higher than mine.

It struck me as beeing oversimplified and arrogant. I mean, you know better.

Yeah, but I said nothing about gain.

My comment was correct. It may have sounded arrogant but it was correct based on my own experience - The TH7, while a great antenna, doesn't give you the ability to hear everything, and someone with a different and possibly better antenna would hear things that the person with the TH7 would.

[ve2nsm]

The TH7, while a great antenna, doesn't give you the ability to hear everything, and someone with a different and possibly better antenna would hear things that the person with the TH7 would..

But don't you think that between a station with a TH7 at 100' and you with a monobander at ??', to make or not the QSO is related to many factors, the antenna being one of the least important?

QTH, QRN, type of ground, HAAT, and the very fact that the propagation is not the same, only one mile away?

[wb3bel]

While the lack of sunspots certainly has put a bit of a damper on the amount of dx on the high bands, there is still quite a bit of DX on at various times of the day. Not all of it is spotted on the dxclusters. You have to spin the big knob and turn the rotator sometimes looking for alternate propagation paths.

I am on the east coast and I am sure that it is easier to work DX to EU and AF for me, but I hear guys in the midwest working EU and AF on 20 and 15 and Carib and SA all the way to 10 meters quite regularly. So if you really are not hearing ANY DX you might want to check your antenna, feedline, surge arrestor, RX etc. For example I heard KO0U in MO working a lot of DX during the CQWW CW last weekend.

As another example it is a lot harder to work into Asia and pacific from the east coast than the midwest, but there have been some pretty fair openings to Asiatic Russia, Mongolia, Japan, China, Malaysia, Singapore to the East coast over the last few weeks.

Anyway, If what you are saying is that it is a lot harder to work DX on the high bands than it was 5 years ago. I would agree. And with the onset of summer the low band QRN and absorption makes dxing the low bands more of a struggle. But look on the bright side, I think old Sol is starting to simmer and in a few more years the flux will be making the ionosphere hum again.

[N2RJ]

.

But don't you think that between a station with a TH7 at 100' and you with a monobander at ??', to make or not the QSO is related to many factors, the antenna being one of the least important?

QTH, QRN, type of ground, HAAT, and the very fact that the propagation is not the same, only one mile away?

Based on HFTA models of my location, yes, the antenna does play a huge part.

[N8MME]

You mean better than my TH7DX at 100'? Of course, I'll start looking for a replacement immediately.


I will be happy to take that piece of junk off your hands and dispose of it for you. I will put it where you will never have to worry about it again. :D