Tom Ogle Vapor Fuel System

[KW4MW]

A friend of mine whose is a retired mechanical engineer with a masters degree and a background in finite element analysis (FEA) called me up yesterday and told me to check out the following site.

Tom OGLE Vapor Fuel System (http://www.rexresearch.com/ogle/1ogle.htm) "there were no hidden fuel tanks or other alternate fuel sources used to power a two-ton automobile for 205 miles Saturday on only two gallons of gasoline fumes."

I immediately asked him if it were possible to get that much energy out of gasoline, his response was that carbuerated engines are very inefficient in extracting the total available energy in auto fuel and that the numbers cited "were possible".

This happened back in the 70's and Ogle met an untimely death in 1981. Conspiracy theories abound.

I wonder if any of you OF's have heard these claims before - alternately, I wonder if there are any young turks out there that would be willing to give it a go?

Read the entire web site before declaring it a hoax. America needs the mileage.

[wb5ydk]

I won't say it's a hoax, but if it really worked as advertised, we would have those ultra-efficient cars today. Either the automakers would have bought/licensed rights to the invention or they would have figured out a cleaver way to achieve the same results by engineering around each of his patent claims.

[kq9j]

I won't say it's a hoax, but if it really worked as advertised, we would have those ultra-efficient cars today. Either the automakers would have bought/licensed rights to the invention or they would have figured out a cleaver way to achieve the same results by engineering around each of his patent claims.

And it would have made big oil hurt big time. Hence the conspiracy theories about his untimely demise.

But if it were viable I would think someone in some other country would have run with it.

[kf6rdn]

It may not have sold oil, but it sure would have sold cars, so I say hoax.

[ve2nsm]

And it would have made big oil hurt big time. Hence the conspiracy theories about his untimely demise.

But if it were viable I would think someone in some other country would have run with it.

There's a theory about increasing efficiency leading to a bigger demand overall.
Read about the Jevons Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox)

[ve6wtf]

THATS NOTHING!

Bet you I could drive to mexico and back in my ranger..
Shes gotten used to running off an empty tank ever since petrol hit $1.50 a litre lmao :p

[W5GA]

The reason it won't work comes right from the patent description:

"Due to the extremely lean fuel mixtures used by the present invention, gas mileage in excess of one hundred miles per gallon may be achieved. "

Extemely lean air/fuel mixtures mean a seriously overheated engine. There is no magic bullet that will get you away from a stoichiometric air/fuel mix. Very far to either side and bad things start to happen.

Can you say snake oil?

[kr2d]

Extemely lean air/fuel mixtures mean a seriously overheated engine. There is no magic bullet that will get you away from a stoichiometric air/fuel mix. Very far to either side and bad things start to happen.



Lean A/F mixtures also increase pollution in the form of oxides of nitrogen.

[W5GA]

Lean A/F mixtures also increase pollution in the form of oxides of nitrogen.

Absolutely correct, due to the addtional heat of combustion.

[N4VGB]

Smokey Yunick (should be a familiar name to racing fans) designed a Pontiac Fiero into a super gas mileage and power producer, many years ago. GM was very interested and they incorporated the design into an all ceramic engine program that was being run by Bill Jenkins (another old racing name) at the time.

The Smokey Yunick system turned the liquid gasoline into a gas before entering the engine and the ceramic engine handled the extreme heat from the lean burn very well.

One big problem! The whole idea generated so much heat that no practical way to incorporate it into a vehicle could be found. Ran great in a test lab at GM for years. :(

[K7JEM]

Physics says that this is impossible. The guy didn't modify the internal workings of the engine, or the workings of the car. He changed fuel delivery to a vapor form. But the amount of power is still the same regardless of how the fuel is delivered. Even if the car was wasting half of the gas, and you could improve that efficiency to 100%, you'd still only double the fuel economy.

His claim is over a 5 times increase in fuel economy. There just isn't that much room for improvement in fuel burning, versus a standard carb.

For decades, I have been involved with motor vehicles that run on propane. That fuel is delivered to the engine, bypassing the carb, and in a gaseous state. Much like the system that Ogle was touting.

But these propane systems didn't get any improved mileage, instead, they got much worse, due to the fact that a gallon of propane has considerably less BTUs than a gallon of gas.

There is only so much energy available from a gallon of fuel, regardless of the delivery mechanism, or even the type of fuel used.

Joe

[K8ERV]

THATS NOTHING!

Bet you I could drive to mexico and back in my ranger..
Shes gotten used to running off an empty tank ever since petrol hit $1.50 a litre lmao :p

Petrol must get better MPG than gas. Where can I buy it?

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[G0GQK]

I remember reading many many years ago that every time someone came up with a new idea to power road vehicles the Shell company bought the rights to the design and shoved it in a safe so that it could never see the light of day. Maybe it was true, who knows, but big poweful companies do this kind of thing, they don't like the competition.

G0GQK

[W3MIV]

Claims about miraculous carburetors and amazing technologies that yield hundred-or-more mpg from gasoline have been circulating since Henry pushed the first Model T off the line.

No one has ever proven a single one of the claims.

Wringing every mile out of every drop of gas used to be a regular, annual challenge: The Mobil Economy Run, and the drivers would reach astonishing levels of efficiency by careful engine management. Some drove barefoot simply to have a closer "feel" with the auto. I am sure that somewhere the archive of articles from Mechanix Illustrated and other topical rags from the fifties still exist. Read them if you can find any of them, and you will see that the techniques are nothing more mysterious than what anyone could do were he/she a fanatic (or paid driver).

I can close my eyes and still see Tom McCahill, his fat arm resting on the window ledge, with a Chrysler 300 convertible in a four-wheel drift toward the camera, a sardonic smile beneath the bald head -- the very image of nonchalance.

:cool:

[KD0BQM]

I am not stupid but I am not as smart as most lawyers and inventors, either. BUT...

If I were to invent a 200 mpg fuel delivery system and Shell, or any other entity bought it from me, and then stuck it in a safe, I would just go ahead and "invent" it again. What can happen? They buy it back again? They fight me in court and admit they have this process but refuse to use it? Ignore me and let me sell it to someone else?

Either I get rich from every oil company or auto company that I can sell it to, or Shell (or any one else who buys it from me) gets vilified for keeping it a secret.

Give me a break. If there was a 200 mpg system out there, we'd have heard about it from places other than the National Enquirer or QRZ!

[WN2SQC]

The concept of 200mpg is lovely. It reminds me of several amazing gas saving devices sold in the 60's. One guaranteed you could drive your car for a month on one tank of gas, what you received for your 25 dollar investment was $10 worth of subway tokens. At 15 cents per token you would likely have most of the gas left after 30 days. The second guaranteed 25% increased mpg with their add-on device. They even quoted several independent labs who verified the results. The scam involved driving in the US without the device and in Canada with the device installed. Since Canada's imperial gallon is 5 quarts you would in fact get 25% more mpg. Truth in advertising at it's best. Let's face it, even tiny engine motor scooters can't get 200mpg, let alone a car with any miracle carb or any other device. I remember one guy who installed a miracle carb that saved 25% on gas, a miracle ignition system that saved 35% on gas, and on and on. He filled the tank, drove 10 miles and the tank overflowed. 73 Ken

[ka0gkt]

Does anyone remember Cow Magnets on the gas line?

[N4VGB]

Physics says that this is impossible. The guy didn't modify the internal workings of the engine, or the workings of the car. He changed fuel delivery to a vapor form. But the amount of power is still the same regardless of how the fuel is delivered. Even if the car was wasting half of the gas, and you could improve that efficiency to 100%, you'd still only double the fuel economy.

His claim is over a 5 times increase in fuel economy. There just isn't that much room for improvement in fuel burning, versus a standard carb.

For decades, I have been involved with motor vehicles that run on propane. That fuel is delivered to the engine, bypassing the carb, and in a gaseous state. Much like the system that Ogle was touting.

But these propane systems didn't get any improved mileage, instead, they got much worse, due to the fact that a gallon of propane has considerably less BTUs than a gallon of gas.

There is only so much energy available from a gallon of fuel, regardless of the delivery mechanism, or even the type of fuel used.

Joe

Hmmmm, do say, then the catalytic converter should be cool to the touch after driving! Wonder why it's so hot and has all that heat shielding around it? :rolleyes:

There are thousands of ways to increase the efficiency of gasoline internal combustion engines, practical is another thing all together. :)

[W3MIV]

Hmmmm, do say, then the catalytic converter should be cool to the touch after driving! Wonder why it's so hot and has all that heat shielding around it?

Such a red herring!

Remember, the exhaust gases are quite hot before they reach the converter. Unburned fuel is only one of the contaminants that the catalysis converts to harmless products, and it may well be among the lesser contributors to the heat produced in the catalyst.

[K7JEM]

Hmmmm, do say, then the catalytic converter should be cool to the touch after driving! Wonder why it's so hot and has all that heat shielding around it? :rolleyes:

There are thousands of ways to increase the efficiency of gasoline internal combustion engines, practical is another thing all together. :)

You do realize that it only takes a very small amount of gasoline to generate a large amount of heat. A gallon of gasoline contains 120,000 BTU of energy. A KWH is equivalent to 3412 BTU. A KWH is equivalent to running a typical space heater for an hour. The amount of gasoline required to generate that same amount of heat would be .0284 gallon, or about 4 ounces of gas.

That means that even if the engine were burning 97% of the fuel, and 3% was being burned in the CC, for every gallon of fuel the heat generated would be equivalent to a KWH. Since most cars burn several gallons per hour, it is very easy to see that even with high efficiency of fuel burn, there will be significant heat potential wasted in unburned fuel.

EVEN IF 50% of the fuel was being wasted by not being burned (which it is not), you could only achieve a doubling of fuel economy BY INCREASING FUEL BURNING EFFICIENCY. You can't go from 15 miles to a gallon to 50, just by burning all the fuel. The numbers just aren't there.

Since that was Ogle's only claim, it is an impossibility. He claimed to NOT change the internal parts of the engine. He claimed to NOT change any of the drive train. His car actually weighed MUCH MORE than a stock car, with all of his stuff on board.

In short, the ONLY place that Ogle could have made progress was through improved fuel burn. But even if the original burn was 20% (which it wasn't), and the final burn was 100% (which it wasn't), you still would not get the results he claimed.

Joe

[KD6NIG]

How much of it was downhill?

I'm betting about 170 miles of it, roughly :)

[K7JEM]

How much of it was downhill?

I'm betting about 170 miles of it, roughly :)

No, relatively flat. Have made that trip dozens of times. But it was a complete loop, anyway. If it had been downhill one way, it would have been the same amount uphill on the way back.

Joe

[k8wpj]

Smokey Yunick (should be a familiar name to racing fans) designed a Pontiac Fiero into a super gas mileage and power producer, many years ago. GM was very interested and they incorporated the design into an all ceramic engine program that was being run by Bill Jenkins (another old racing name) at the time.

The Smokey Yunick system turned the liquid gasoline into a gas before entering the engine and the ceramic engine handled the extreme heat from the lean burn very well.

One big problem! The whole idea generated so much heat that no practical way to incorporate it into a vehicle could be found. Ran great in a test lab at GM for years. :(

That car made an appearance on Spike TV's 'musclecar' last season...

It was nice to see, but i would've been more impressed with it, if they had actually driven it, instead of just showing it on display in the garage...

It even caught fire briefly when they tried to start it up...:rolleyes:

[wd0ct]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.pdf

Some bogus crap here.

The honda cb750 forum I belong to has a guy pushing this and swears it works. Hey it improves octane and cetane! Must be a miracle as I believe they are inverse to one another. I mentioned placebo effect to him but he is on a quest...

His miracle: http://fitchcatalyst.com/

[N4VGB]

It even caught fire briefly when they tried to start it up...:rolleyes:


Of course, Smokey Yunick could have cared less about fuel mileage, it was just an accidental byproduct of him trying to ring every bit of power out of every engine he touched. :) My kind of guy! :)

[K0RGR]

This technology was marketed by "P.T.Barnum, Inc." no doubt?

Yes, I remember the magnets on the fuel line - ha! - along with a lot of other stuff. The only thing I can honestly say made a significant difference in the gas mileage on my cars was the oil that I used. I switched over to Arco Graphite oil years ago, and I did get a measurable improvement in the mileage on my old International Scout. But, my, what a mess that solid black oil was to work with! Anything it touched was forever after black. You'd have stains on your hands for days after changing oil, in spite of Boraxo. I remember pulling the filler plug one time, and having a stream of that black stuff hit me in the forehead.

But, it did raise my MPG a few MPG. On a vehicle that gets 8 MPG, that's pretty significant!

I haven't used any for years, but I've had other additives over time that seemed to help, but probably never paid for themselves. I've always used them more as a protectant for the engine. The Arco graphite was very effective this way. One time, a jerk cross-threaded the drain plug in my truck, and the oil leaked out. For some unknown reason, I didn't detect the 0 oil pressure on the gauge for quite a few miles. No harm done - fortunately.

[wd0ct]

This technology was marketed by "P.T.Barnum, Inc." no doubt?

Yes, I remember the magnets on the fuel line - ha! - along with a lot of other stuff. The only thing I can honestly say made a significant difference in the gas mileage on my cars was the oil that I used. I switched over to Arco Graphite oil years ago, and I did get a measurable improvement in the mileage on my old International Scout. But, my, what a mess that solid black oil was to work with! Anything it touched was forever after black. You'd have stains on your hands for days after changing oil, in spite of Boraxo. I remember pulling the filler plug one time, and having a stream of that black stuff hit me in the forehead.

But, it did raise my MPG a few MPG. On a vehicle that gets 8 MPG, that's pretty significant!

I haven't used any for years, but I've had other additives over time that seemed to help, but probably never paid for themselves. I've always used them more as a protectant for the engine. The Arco graphite was very effective this way. One time, a jerk cross-threaded the drain plug in my truck, and the oil leaked out. For some unknown reason, I didn't detect the 0 oil pressure on the gauge for quite a few miles. No harm done - fortunately.

Thinner viscosity oil definitely works too. Just ask nascar guys. I saw some 0W-20 for fords at wally world a while back.

[ka5s]

...

If I were to invent a 200 mpg fuel delivery system and Shell, or any other entity bought it from me, and then stuck it in a safe, I would just go ahead and "invent" it again. What can happen? They buy it back again? They fight me in court and admit they have this process but refuse to use it? Ignore me and let me sell it to someone else?


Tracy Hall (http://www.htracyhall.org/HTracyHall/History/bio.htm )worked on the GE artificial diamond project, and after departing GE was bound not to make use of his confidential knowledge. So he invented a tetrahedral press, and set himself up as a competitor.

Cortland
KA5S