Woman Buried Alive in California

[kg4kww]

who's at fault?

The niece of a homeless woman who died last week after being buried alive on California dunes said her aunt once described her fate as her greatest fear.

Patricia Ann Kalbskopf, 53, was killed on May 14 when a group of acquaintances allegedly buried her in the sand of the Oceano Dunes after she passed out from drinking, investigators told the San Luis Obispo Tribune

Kalbskopf's neice Lisa Cruz said this that her aunt's fear of burial was so acute that she made family members promise to cremate her after her death.

“Pat’s biggest fear was to be buried alive," Cruz told the paper. "She didn’t even want to be buried even if she died. That’s something she would say: ‘When I’m old, you better not bury me. You better cremate me.’ ”

James Lee Proffer, 52, David Wesley Cartwright, 59, and Kelly Marvin Johnson, 41, were being held at County Jail on involuntary manslaughter charges, according to jail officials, the Tribune reported.

Investigators say they don't believe that the men, who were also drinking, intended to kill Kalbskopf, but that their actions resulted in her death.

full story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356627,00.html)

[wv6z]

who's at fault?

Is this a serious question Greg? Well let me see if I can process this the way you would......

..... nope, can't be done so I will have to say it was the scum bags fault herself for being a worthless drunk and passing out in the first place.

[K0HWY]

Who's at fault? Looks like all parties involved were at fault. One paid with her life. The others will get off much lighter through a judicial system that has higher priorities.

[KC9IUX]

How on earth can you fault a sleeping woman for the crime commited against her?

[KC9IUX]

"Yeah yer Honor, the drunk bum was askin' for it." :(

[wv6z]

Save it for someone else pal, you will never convince me that the drunken bum who passed out and was buried as a prank by her posse was NOT responsible for her own demise.

[K0HWY]

How on earth can you fault a sleeping woman for the crime commited against her?

Through a far removed concept that most people in this country today fail to understand, called personal responsibility. If you drink to the point that you are no longer in control, you lay the ground work for anyone to take control for you, often leading to consequences just like this. Certainly the other drunks are to blame for this unfortunate incident but had the "victim" acted responsibly, she wouldn't have allowed herself to be placed in this position. It appears that she was not sleeping but was "passed out." A minor detail.

[KC9IUX]

So if she was simply exhausted, she would be blameless?

A drunkenly passed out woman would be at least partially responsible for her rape, according to this logic.

How is making oneself vulnerable a crime? It has to be, or she would be considered an innocent victim.

I'd hate to be unconscious around you guys.

[KC9IUX]

she wouldn't have allowed herself to be placed in this position.

So a person who unknowingly does this is somehow an accomplice?:mad:

[KC9IUX]

Ha, you guys remind me of a "Lil Abner" comic strip.

Pappy Yokum went to NYC and got mugged.

The judge let him off, becase it was his first offence.

[wv6z]

Well, just so long as you haven't lost your sense of humor Chris. ;)

[KC9IUX]

No way, I love humor.

It's the funniest thing I know of. :D

[kc9jwa]

:):)Well this unfortuntally was a lesson to them and her, yeah god lets you mess up and learn they all did i wish the dead woman was alive and learned by maybe almost or coulda died,things back fire , its to bad they dont think, before they do it, i am tired god knows what i am trying to say, 73s.:)

[wv6z]

I love your sig line Stephanie! :p

[KC9IUX]

Goerge Carlin said, "Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff".

I don't use it as a hard and fast rule, though.

[K0HWY]

A drunkenly passed out woman would be at least partially responsible for her rape, according to this logic.

How is making oneself vulnerable a crime? It has to be, or she would be considered an innocent victim.



Would you want to be the attorney in charge of prosecuting a rape case in which both parties were drunk? Which of the two do you believe? Which one of them is most likely to recall the facts?

Aside from that, no one said she committed a crime. To have a crime, you have to meet all of the elements of that particular crime. Making a stupid decision is stupid. It is not a crime. However, you do have responsibilities and decisions to make every day. Make a poor decision or act irresponsibly and you may find yourself in a lot of trouble. That trouble may or may not come in the form of jail or prison time. There's no law against being ignorant or stupid. There are consequences though.

[kf6rdn]

I'd hate to be unconscious around you guys.


I'd hate for you to be unconscious around us too.

Buryin' a man's alot of work!
:eek:

[K8ERV]

Look on the brite side-- that is one way to avoid all those high California taxes and fees---

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[kc9jwa]

I love your sig line Stephanie! :p
Thanks i love my signature to i got a few but one i defintaly wont post here.:D It just is my motto as well for my sig line here.:)

[w7fsq]

Wow I see no place where it said the woman was homeless, it said the Niece of a Homeless women.:confused:

[w7lpn]

If she wasn't drunk, she'd be alive! Doesn't that simple fact say anything? No, it doesn't mean it's not tragic, but it should be a lesson for anyone who repeatedly gets that drunk. That said, lets not go too far down the road toward the notion that "No-one is responsible for their actions". The "It's not my fault" crowd has already convinced society that their problems/mistakes/crimes are all someone else's fault. Drug rehab & counceling rarely "Cure" anyone. It takes internal acceptance of responsibility, direction of your life, outcomes of your choices, to turn any person away from an incorrect course of repeated behaviors. People who get passed out drunk, often have severe consequences, which, not so rarely, end in death. Lesson? Don't get that drunk. :rolleyes:

[KA8DKT]

Save it for someone else pal, you will never convince me that the drunken bum who passed out and was buried as a prank by her posse was NOT responsible for her own demise.
Ahhh, so anyone who drinks a little too much and passes out is a drunken bum. I know at least one person who will go to sleep after just a few beers. I suppose that make her a drunken bum, too.

You are very quick to judge, sir, especially since you have very little information at hand.

As to being to blame for what someone else does to you when you are asleep...Well, I'd advise you to not go to sleep in my presence, sir, or you might ultimately learn to retract that attitude.

-gary

[KA8DKT]

If she wasn't drunk, she'd be alive! Doesn't that simple fact say anything? No, it doesn't mean it's not tragic, but it should be a lesson for anyone who repeatedly gets that drunk. That said, lets not go too far down the road toward the notion that "No-one is responsible for their actions". The "It's not my fault" crowd has already convinced society that their problems/mistakes/crimes are all someone else's fault. Drug rehab & counceling rarely "Cure" anyone. It takes internal acceptance of responsibility, direction of your life, outcomes of your choices, to turn any person away from an incorrect course of repeated behaviors. People who get passed out drunk, often have severe consequences, which, not so rarely, end in death. Lesson? Don't get that drunk. :rolleyes:
Nowhere in that news story did I see that this was repeated behavior on her part. That is a conclusion of yours that is not supported by any of the presented evidence.

It could well have been her first drinks ever. She could have just been tired and had one or two drinks and just got sleepy. Any number of scenarios are possible, but you came right away to the conclusion that she repeatedly got drunk and thus was an irresponsible person and therefore responsible for her own death. You must be working for her companions' defense team.

So where is the difference between going to sleep after a drink or two (or three) because of fatigue, and "passing out" because of excessive alcohol?

I have some news for you. Many people go to sleep under the influence of alcohol and it is not always because of an excess. She is a victim here, and you are blaming her. Using your form of logic, if a person is broadsided by a car that runs a red light, they are responsible for the accident because they were driving their car and got in the way of the red light runner.

Unbelievable.

-gary

[w2amr]

who's at fault?

The niece of a homeless woman who died last week after being buried alive on California dunes said her aunt once described her fate as her greatest fear.

Patricia Ann Kalbskopf, 53, was killed on May 14 when a group of acquaintances allegedly buried her in the sand of the Oceano Dunes after she passed out from drinking, investigators told the San Luis Obispo Tribune

Kalbskopf's neice Lisa Cruz said this that her aunt's fear of burial was so acute that she made family members promise to cremate her after her death.

“Pat’s biggest fear was to be buried alive," Cruz told the paper. "She didn’t even want to be buried even if she died. That’s something she would say: ‘When I’m old, you better not bury me. You better cremate me.’ ”

James Lee Proffer, 52, David Wesley Cartwright, 59, and Kelly Marvin Johnson, 41, were being held at County Jail on involuntary manslaughter charges, according to jail officials, the Tribune reported.

Investigators say they don't believe that the men, who were also drinking, intended to kill Kalbskopf, but that their actions resulted in her death.

full story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356627,00.html)
Bartender, another round of formaldehyde for my friends!

[K0HWY]

Ahhh, so anyone who drinks a little too much and passes out is a drunken bum. I know at least one person who will go to sleep after just a few beers. I suppose that make her a drunken bum, too.






Nowhere in that news story did I see that this was repeated behavior on her part. That is a conclusion of yours that is not supported by any of the presented evidence.

It could well have been her first drinks ever. She could have just been tired and had one or two drinks and just got sleepy. Any number of scenarios are possible, but you came right away to the conclusion that she repeatedly got drunk and thus was an irresponsible person and therefore responsible for her own death. You must be working for her companions' defense team.

So where is the difference between going to sleep after a drink or two (or three) because of fatigue, and "passing out" because of excessive alcohol?

I have some news for you. Many people go to sleep under the influence of alcohol and it is not always because of an excess. She is a victim here, and you are blaming her. Using your form of logic, if a person is broadsided by a car that runs a red light, they are responsible for the accident because they were driving their car and got in the way of the red light runner.

Unbelievable.

-gary


The particulars of this story seem to be getting somewhat distorted. For clarification, this woman was not sleeping. If she were sleeping, she would have simply woke up and walked away and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. She was passed out due to the effects of alcohol. Big difference between going to sleep due to fatigue and having your level of consciousness reduced to the point that you can't control your body.

It really doesn't matter if this was her first drink ever or if it were her 1,000th beer celebration. The information on alcohol consumption and its possible side effects are taught very early in the public schools. Hopefully, responsible parenting will have had an impact long before that time but we all know that's living in a fantasy world. Nevertheless, we all have to be accountable for our own actions. If you're not sure, don't do it.

We don't have to be working for her companions' defense team to see her role in her own death. No one is saying her buddies are without guilt. Obviously, the state feels they have the elements needed to charge them with the appropriate crime, involuntary manslaughter.

As for the red light runner, you left out a key element in your comparison analysis. Let's make the two test subjects equal, if we're going to comapre logic. To make a fair comparison, the driver of these two vehicles need to have some sort of mechanism that places both of them out of control of their vehicles. In your comparision, one driver is simply at the wrong place when someone else make a mistake. Let's say both drivers have made a CHOICE. Their brake pads are worn and they CHOSE not to replace them. As a result, the driver of the second vehicle can't stop to avoid the collision. Clearly, the other guy ran the red light and in so doing, broke the law. Depending on state law, the driver of the other vehicle may or may not be guilty of an improper equipment law but there's no doubt that his decision not to repair his car was a factor in the accident, thereby making him responsible as well. No citation. Just responsibility.

[G0GQK]

Seems to me some of you people have a strange logic, or no logical thought at all. A woman consumes too much alcohol, it happens all the time all over the world. Her friends, also inebriated, decide in their drunkeness to bury her, while still alive and breathing, and some of you believe it was her own fault !

OK, if she was inebriated and she fell down a cliff into the sea, or off a balcony and crashed on to the ground, it would be entirely her fault and the cause of her demise. Would it be her fault if one of her drunken friends decided to push her off the balcony to see what happens to people who hit concrete quickly ?

However, she fell into a drunken stupor and they, also being drunk thought how comical it would be to bury her in the sand. They are guilty of manslaughter at the minimum, and most probably pre meditated murder.

G0GQK

[K1CJS]

Wow I see no place where it said the woman was homeless, it said the Niece of a Homeless women.:confused:

Yes, it did say the niece of a homeless woman--said the dead homeless woman's worst fear was of being buried alive.

It helps if the person who reads the story comprehends what is being said, don't you think?

[K1CJS]

In any event, we're told alcoholism is a sickness. Isn't it just possible that the woman told her story to her friends as well as her acquaintances, and those acquaintances thought it would be funny to see what would happen if that woman came to--buried? Then the problem is those people being drunk, and carrying things too far, and the woman being drunk, passing out--and allowing it to happen.

That is exactly why the friends being charged with involuntary manslaughter--causing death accidently.

[w2amr]

In any event, we're told alcoholism is a sickness. .
..... like endless posts about dead people.

[KA8DKT]

I stand by my remarks.

-gary

[K0HWY]

They are guilty of manslaughter at the minimum, and most probably pre meditated murder.

G0GQK

They have been charged with involuntary manslaughter. None of the criminal elements needed to bring a charge of murder, in any degree, are present. As JCS pointed out, it was a tragic accident, facilitated by persons who failed to drink responsibly.

[kb3laz]

You people are stupid!
1 Being drunk is not against the law.
2 Burying someone alive is.

Therefore the parties that killed her are responsible.

[NA4BH]

This has gone on for 4 pages and no one has figured it out. Greg is upset because he didn't get to do the services on the woman. :D

[N7RJD]

who's at fault?

I'd say you are at fault. You have spent so many years making the Undertaker/Funeral Director life look so glamorous it was bound to happen. These guys just had to try it out and see if it was all you said it was but couldn't wait for a stiff of their own. :D

[K0HWY]

You people are stupid!
1 Being drunk is not against the law.
2 Burying someone alive is.

Therefore the parties that killed her are responsible.

:rolleyes: Stupid seems to be keeping good company. No one is saying being drunk is against the law. In fact, I have repeated this several times. Burying someone alive is not against the law either. It's done all the time by kids at the beach.

Responsibility and criminal action are not the same. What's so hard to understand about that? Who's being stupid?

[kb3laz]

:rolleyes: Stupid seems to be keeping good company. No one is saying being drunk is against the law. In fact, I have repeated this several times. Burying someone alive is not against the law either. It's done all the time by kids at the beach.

Responsibility and criminal action are not the same. What's so hard to understand about that? Who's being stupid?

If burying them results in death its an illegal act.
Ah but we are talking about legal responsibility.
As for this womans personal respectabilities she slipped up.
Should this result in death no.

Some people act as if she deserved to die because she was drunk.
Not aiming this at you or anyone in particular.

[wv6z]

You guys are absolutely adorable...... it's hard, I know, but try to understand this, okay?
1) I don't think anyone said they didn't feel sorry for the drunken bum
2) I don't think anyone said they felt her act of being inebriated was a crime
3) I don't think anyone said that they did NOT feel that her friends had intentionally NOT acted responsibly

The point was quite simply this, if the scum bag had not been hammered, she would have not passed out and her friends wouldn't have killed her, understand? Sheesh guys, find a hobby or something….. I hear amateur radio is a fun pastime. ;)

[wv6z]

Some people act as if she deserved to die because she was drunk.
Not aiming this at you or anyone in particular.

She didn’t deserve to die because she was a drunk, she DID die because she cannot responsibly drink…. Or simply put, she is now a dead idiot. BTW, go to bed, you have to get up and go to school in the morning. :D

[kg4kww]

Dudes, beer drinking drunks dying to be buried alive, listen up.
These people violated the law many times over.

1. Buried a live person
2. did not have the proper paper work to dig a grave and bury someone
3. did not give this poor sole a bell to ring when she sobered up.

Could they be trying cover up rape or abuse?

Dunno.

Yes this is totaly wrong.

Show respect for the dead, even if they were S Faced.

[kc9jwa]

Alot of kids adults use the terms, i was pressured, i was tired, ect. I had many try to pressure me into drugs, drinkin, i didnt go for it, i didnt know if i could handle it, i advise most i know if you are going to drink and not sure what it will do to you or how you will act go home or dont do it simple as that, and for whatever else. People do things things happin , its life deal with it, no matter what it did to you or someone else, it was a risk and the results are not good at times. Its sad yes it was dumb yes and all got punished yes, well its a lesson, it wasnt the best lesson but it was a very hard lesson. As for the one who died if was alive and this almost woulda happend , she would probably thought twice no it aint her fault humans drink and results come out bad, as for her friends they know now stuf fhappins take responsibility, even if it is the worst, life aint fair im sure w eall know. I use to drink i found out what it did to me i was a jerk, i fell , i got sick once out of all times, i quit .

[kg4kww]

Remember in England they show respect for drunks as they have lots of them.

Dudes, beer drinking drunks dying to be buried alive, listen up.
These people violated the law many times over.

1. Buried a live person
2. did not have the proper paper work to dig a grave and bury someone
3. did not give this poor sole a bell to ring when she sobered up.

Could they be trying cover up rape or abuse?

Dunno.

Yes this is totaly wrong.

Show respect for the dead, even if they were S Faced.

[K1CJS]

Dudes, beer drinking drunks dying to be buried alive, listen up.
These people violated the law many times over.

1. Buried a live person
2. did not have the proper paper work to dig a grave and bury someone
3. did not give this poor sole a bell to ring when she sobered up.

Could they be trying cover up rape or abuse?

Dunno.

Yes this is totaly wrong.

Show respect for the dead, even if they were S Faced.

I think this post takes the Darwin award for this thread!! :rolleyes:

[w7lpn]

Nowhere in that news story did I see that this was repeated behavior on her part. That is a conclusion of yours that is not supported by any of the presented evidence.

It could well have been her first drinks ever. She could have just been tired and had one or two drinks and just got sleepy. Any number of scenarios are possible, but you came right away to the conclusion that she repeatedly got drunk and thus was an irresponsible person and therefore responsible for her own death. You must be working for her companions' defense team.

So where is the difference between going to sleep after a drink or two (or three) because of fatigue, and "passing out" because of excessive alcohol?

I have some news for you. Many people go to sleep under the influence of alcohol and it is not always because of an excess. She is a victim here, and you are blaming her. Using your form of logic, if a person is broadsided by a car that runs a red light, they are responsible for the accident because they were driving their car and got in the way of the red light runner.

Unbelievable.

-gary

You're making assumptions as well, Your red light runner example isn't anywhere close to similar. IF you can show anyone that this was an isolated incident & she didn't regularly abuse alcohol, I'll apologise. In reality you know how unlikely that is. Again, willfully placing yourself in a vulnerable position makes you at least patially responsible for your demise. Not Completely! I never said that.
Heavy smokers what their smoking related diseases to be everyone else's problem, Drinkers want a consequence free environment to get soused and have a magical body guard there to prevent the unforseen consequences. Just like it's not the fault of a young lady who passes out at a dorm party, that she got raped and contracted an STD from some low-life, It still would not have happened if she was drinking responsibly ie; a designated driver/sober chaperone would be a good start. It's not her fault some idiots burried her alive, but as I said, It wouldn't have happened if.....
If we're going to teach our young people to be safe, don't teach them that if something bad happenes, there's someone to blame, Instead teach them how to be safe...all the time. :(

[w2amr]

I think this post takes the Darwin award for this thread!! :rolleyes:
Got my vote.

[kb3laz]

She didn’t deserve to die because she was a drunk, she DID die because she cannot responsibly drink…. Or simply put, she is now a dead idiot. BTW, go to bed, you have to get up and go to school in the morning. :D

Actually schools out for the semester and i work afternoons.:eek:

[kg4kww]

K1CJS, I knew this thread was over your head. :D