Serious QRO... what's the point?

[EI8DRB]

I was tuning across the 20m band earlier and at 14.240, came across a net having a bit of a banter. Seeing as how I was in the middle of testing a new antenna and these boys were coming in at S9+10 from the US (and I'm in Ireland) I figured that I could use them as a benchmark.
At one point, I had the doublet disconnected from the feedline, and then disconnected the feedline from the ATU and dropped it on the floor... meaning that the only coupling from the antenna to the ATU was via 2 air-gaps of 3 feet each... and these guys were not only still audible, they were loud. I'd be proud of that signal to a good antenna system, let alone one with large breaks in the feedline.
My query is this... if you're going to run kilowatt RF into gainy antennas, leading to a situation where armchair copy is guaranteed, and all just for a ragchew... why bother using a radio at all? Just conference call.
This may seem like flamebait, and if flames result, so be it, but if there's no challenge, then it's just a really expensive phonecall, no?

[KE6KA]

Some people have more money than brains.

[K8MHZ]

My query is this... if you're going to run kilowatt RF into gainy antennas, leading to a situation where armchair copy is guaranteed, and all just for a ragchew... why bother using a radio at all?For the same reason my predecessors left Ireland and came to Michigan.

"Because we can."

At least Michigan has the world's greatest ale.

http://www.bellsbeer.com/admin/Uploads/Products/1__Oberon_Label.png

[N2RJ]

I hear the 14.240 group on regularly. In fact one of the regular participants is 9Y4D.

I really have no idea WHY they're doing it, but you know what, it's their radios and their money, and it's just one frequency.

So why not just let them have their fun?

Some of those same guys may wonder what we get out of "ur 59, QRZ?" type of contacts.

[N4MXZ]

There are some very high power stations on 20m here in the states.
5 kw is not unusual, and 20kw is not unheard of. :eek:

[EI8DRB]

So why not just let them have their fun?

Don't get me wrong... I have no problem with it... to be honest, having listened to them, they seem like polite, technically aware folk, and those are two ingredients I would deem important in the radio ham. I just don't see what they get out of it.
But then again, many people would wonder what I get out of trying in vain to break a pileup with 50w and a rubbish antenna... but when I do... wow, what a buzz.

[EI8DRB]

At least Michigan has the world's greatest ale.


Ya know something... I'm going to let that pass... purely because I know you haven't tasted the nectar that is Galway Hooker (http://www.galwayhooker.ie/site/home/). Before you fall about laughing, it's named after a fishing boat rather than a working girl, but, IMO, has more in common with the latter, being a fine thirst quencher rather than just smelling of fish... oh, wait...

[W5HTW]

I like Tecate

The 20KW of beers.

[K0HWY]

I guess if you've got it, flaunt it. I don't have it so there's certainly no danger of me flaunting anything. Personally, I get my kicks trying to see what I can do with a simple transceiver and a wire. Perhaps someday I'll get a little better rig but with the results I had during the low point of the last cycle, I could never justify the cost of an amplifier. Perhaps I'd feel a bit different if I was more involved in the hobby (and less involved in other things) or simply had that much extra cash.

[w4nti]

I was tuning across the 20m band earlier and at 14.240, came across a net having a bit of a banter. Seeing as how I was in the middle of testing a new antenna and these boys were coming in at S9+10 from the US (and I'm in Ireland) I figured that I could use them as a benchmark.
At one point, I had the doublet disconnected from the feedline, and then disconnected the feedline from the ATU and dropped it on the floor... meaning that the only coupling from the antenna to the ATU was via 2 air-gaps of 3 feet each... and these guys were not only still audible, they were loud. I'd be proud of that signal to a good antenna system, let alone one with large breaks in the feedline.
My query is this... if you're going to run kilowatt RF into gainy antennas, leading to a situation where armchair copy is guaranteed, and all just for a ragchew... why bother using a radio at all? Just conference call.
This may seem like flamebait, and if flames result, so be it, but if there's no challenge, then it's just a really expensive phonecall, no?

You obviously are either a troll, or you have no clue at all of the magic behind Amateur Radio.

If you are a troll, well kiss off. And if you are serious, well you need another avocation. It can not be explained. As we say here stateside, you do not have a clue.

But I'll give it a go.....Doing it by radio is magic. Think about it. You are sitting there in Ireland, you have this box in front of you making noises and as you tune you heard something that you can understand. You determine it is DX, in this case USA. Now stop.....you were amazed at being able to hear these guys with nothing but a airgap from the feedline to the radio.

How about thinking about the 3000 miles or so air gap between the two stations. Now that's magic.

Lets look at trying to work say Heard Island, along with half or more of the rest of the world...AT THE SAME TIME. And you get through, now thats an accomplishment. Not everyone can claim they can do it..And you put the station together that did it....without the Internet. Thats magic.

Or,,,,your minding your own business and somecalls you with a plea for help...say he/she is on a small boat in the Atlantic, taking on water. You know the numbers to call, that results in their saving. You just saved lives because you were a good operator with a good station.

Are you getting my point?

And one more thing, if you do CW.....how many people do you know that can do that? Now thats something to crow about too.

73

Dan/W4NTI

[EI8DRB]

Now stop.....you were amazed at being able to hear these guys with nothing but a airgap from the feedline to the radio.

How about thinking about the 3000 miles or so air gap between the two stations. Now that's magic.

Not really, Dan... simply having an antenna either resonant on the relevant frequency or long enough to capture enough RF will do it.

My point, however, was that I had NO antenna... just a couple of terminals, about 3 feet from the feedline.


You obviously are either a troll, or you have no clue at all of the magic behind Amateur Radio.

If you are a troll, well kiss off. And if you are serious, well you need another avocation. It can not be explained. As we say here stateside, you do not have a clue.


Now, that's just rude. Or outspoken at best.


Lets look at trying to work say Heard Island, along with half or more of the rest of the world...AT THE SAME TIME. And you get through, now thats an accomplishment. Not everyone can claim they can do it..And you put the station together that did it....without the Internet. Thats magic.

Again, I refute the allegation that amateur radio is magical. It's combination of knowledge of physical properties of the world around us and the drive and know-how to harness these. As to breaking pileups, that's just luck + perseverance.


Or,,,,your minding your own business and somecalls you with a plea for help...say he/she is on a small boat in the Atlantic, taking on water. You know the numbers to call, that results in their saving. You just saved lives because you were a good operator with a good station.


I'm sorry... I'm totally at a loss as to where you're going here.


Are you getting my point?

In short, no. Even 'Because they can' bears some sort of meaning I can relate to.

I obviously touched a nerve somewhere in you... not entirely sure how or why... mine was a genuine question and not construed to incite anything more than discussion, and maybe a little friendly banter.

[WA9SVD]

I like Tecate

The 20KW of beers.

NAh. There are some German beers that are around 10%, and one Sam Adam's that's supposedly 17+%, (but I'm skeptical on that)
Guess those would be the "Megawatters? :confused::D

[w4nti]

Not really, Dan... simply having an antenna either resonant on the relevant frequency or long enough to capture enough RF will do it.

My point, however, was that I had NO antenna... just a couple of terminals, about 3 feet from the feedline.



Now, that's just rude. Or outspoken at best.



Again, I refute the allegation that amateur radio is magical. It's combination of knowledge of physical properties of the world around us and the drive and know-how to harness these. As to breaking pileups, that's just luck + perseverance.



I'm sorry... I'm totally at a loss as to where you're going here.



In short, no. Even 'Because they can' bears some sort of meaning I can relate to.

I obviously touched a nerve somewhere in you... not entirely sure how or why... mine was a genuine question and not construed to incite anything more than discussion, and maybe a little friendly banter.

I was correct, you don't have a clue. Thus you can not be convinced. Thus you need to turn in that license and go to CB.

Dan/W4NTI

[N4MXZ]

The "why use all that power when not needed" is a very old question in ham radio indeed.

Some answers are:
1. "Because I can"
2. "If I don't, the qrm will move in close"
3. "If one of my friends is listening, I want to make sure he/she hears me"
4. "If someone needs my country, state, county etc, then they will be able to hear me and contact me"
5. "I am tired of Bubba down/up the band and want to p*** him off"
6. "muhahaha"

Dan/W4NTI; your response made so little sense it bordered on being non sequitur.

[K8JD]

There are some very high power stations on 20m here in the states.
20kw is not unheard of. :eek:
Is that ERP 2 KW=10db antenna gain or are these guys the scofflaw freebanders moved down from 11M, dressed in ham clothing ?:eek:

[K8JD]

The "why use all that power when not needed" is a very old question in ham radio indeed.

Some answers are:
1. "Because I can"
2. "If I don't, the qrm will move in close"
3. "If one of my friends is listening, I want to make sure he/she hears me"
4. "If someone needs my country, state, county etc, then they will be able to hear me and contact me"
5. "I am tired of Bubba down/up the band and want to p*** him off"
6. "muhahaha"

.

It takes a lot of power to get from one side of the city to the other on 20 M, with all the power line noise and big buildings in the way. Besides, its not cool anymore to pick up a 2 watt handheld and talk to my buddy on 2M FM repeaters .:eek:

[N4MXZ]

Is that ERP 2 KW=10db antenna gain or are these guys the scofflaw freebanders moved down from 11M, dressed in ham clothing ?:eek:

Hehe.
There have been guys running the commercial transmitters on AM (Gates, Harris, CCA, Collins, RCA to name a few) since the '50s. Many still are...up to 10kw. In the '70s and '80s a huge number of contesters were running the Alpha 77DX and the Henry 5k, both capable of 5 kw out. Today many are still in use. There are also the assorted homebrew amps. Pairs of 8877s, 3x1s and 4x1 are commonplace. A select few are using as large as 3cx 15000 tubes. Most of these guys were never CBers and many are current or ex broadcast engineers.

[KC2TAU]

I just find it a little annoying with me being QRP and all trying to call a station and getting smashed by all the big kilowatt big guns. I understand I signed up for this when I decided on going QRP but damn do some of these people have way too much money and little to do.

[KA4DPO]

Good amateur practice is not to use more power than is necessary to establish communication. I hear a lot of stations running more power than is necessary quite often. These are the operators who don't have a clue.

In as much as I understand that it's easy to buy an amplifier it's much harder to study and understand propagation. The killowatt across town types are nothing more than CBers.

[NC5P]

Do they have three phase power brought to the house or do they use big diesel generators?

[K7MH]

Again, I refute the allegation that amateur radio is magical. It's combination of knowledge of physical properties of the world around us and the drive and know-how to harness these. As to breaking pileups, that's just luck + perseverance.

You can have a complete understanding of the physical properties and electronics behind it all and still feel that it is magical!
It has been magical to me since I first got a Hallicrafters S120 when I was 11 years old and it still seems magical. If it isn't to you then I am glad I am me and it is! :)
As to breaking pileups, sometimes it is just being QRO or using a monster beam.
I wouldn't trade skill and experience at figuring out what the DX is doing with a pile up and what I have learned about the different bands for all the luck in the world.
Perseverance does pay off. But while some persevere in calling endlessly on the same frequency in hopes of "getting lucky", I (as do many) persevere in figuring out what the DX is doing and when band condx are going to favor me, or if they will. Usually when I decide it is time to get into the foray, I am done in a few minutes. You make your own luck.
Luck is just an abstract concept by which we explain good and/or bad things that we cannot explain or quantify in any other way.

[AE1PT]

Many men seem consumed with measuring contests--trying to prove who has the biggest one. Doesn't matter what it is, bigger is better. This is an obnoxious American disorder--one Thorstein Veblen called "invidious comparison."

[W7MDC]

The "why use all that power when not needed" is a very old question in ham radio indeed.

Some answers are:
1. "Because I can"
2. "If I don't, the qrm will move in close"
3. "If one of my friends is listening, I want to make sure he/she hears me"
4. "If someone needs my country, state, county etc, then they will be able to hear me and contact me"
5. "I am tired of Bubba down/up the band and want to p*** him off"
6. "muhahaha"


You have a good list here, but you forgot what I think is the most likely answer:

It's a mistake.

Maybe they were all powered up because they were DXing and then got sidetracked? Is that not a reasonable scenario?

[M0DSZ]

Most of your replies are polite and convey some meaning but one respondent is obviously ignorant. I expect he carries a rack of guns in the back of a large, shiny pickup. It is a "man" thing as some women are inclined to tell us these days, all b***s and few brains.

[EI8DRB]

Most of your replies are polite and convey some meaning but one respondent is obviously ignorant. I expect he carries a rack of guns in the back of a large, shiny pickup. It is a "man" thing as some women are inclined to tell us these days, all b***s and few brains.

They are, and for the most part, the sort of replies I hoped to get. TBH, though, I would have liked a bit more argument from the QRO camp. Sure, there were a few abstract arguments as to why one may run power, but nobody chimed in to say that they were the sort of multi-kilowatt-station-with-stacked-beams that I was talking about.

Sure, there's often a little envy in hearing such power too... knowing that it's probably driven by an FT9000 or IC7800 or some such kilobuck rig and being radiated by an antenna array in the same price range, but this is tempered by a sort of smugness when I am aware that the same sort of S9+60 signals can be achieved for across-town, or even across-state communication by a G5RV at 15 feet as a 3 element beam for 20m.

[EI8DRB]

You can have a complete understanding of the physical properties and electronics behind it all and still feel that it is magical!


Don't get me wrong... I am completely enthralled by what is possible when RF and the subtleties of the ionosphere are combined... I always have been, ever since I saw ghosts of foreign TV stations superimposed on local stations during the summer when I was a child.

A few years ago, I had a discussion with a devout jew who thought that 'miracle' was something that could only be attributed to god and that my cold, scientific, atheist worldview must be so disheartening. I tried to explain that the opposite was the case, that the autonomous dance of DNA had given rise to such amazing creatures as sea anemones, orchids, bees and of course humans. That this had all arisen by chance, from the coming together of the dust of dead stars, and that to me, this was as miraculous as if there was a creator behind it all. Likewise, a solid understanding of how the physics of RF works enhances the 'magic' but I can also see the man behind the curtain.

[N4MXZ]

You have a good list here, but you forgot what I think is the most likely answer:

It's a mistake.

Maybe they were all powered up because they were DXing and then got sidetracked? Is that not a reasonable scenario?

I operate almost exclusively on 160m and 75m now. The high power on 160m is predominately out of (perceived?) necessity. The high power on 75 can be attributed to my aforementioned list, with a substantial "mine is bigger than yours" mentality.
I haven't really been active on 20m since the late 1980s. Those ops that I knew and knew of then could be catagorized into the 'list'. I am sure that many fit your scenario as well. Good point.

Btw I operate a pair of 3-500s :cool:

[WG7X]

EI8DBR sez:
knowing that it's probably driven by an FT9000 or IC7800 or some such kilobuck rig and being radiated by an antenna array in the same price range,

Well now, I was waiting to hear how you had determined that the Amateurs in question were running "serious QRO" and now I can see that it appears to be a guess on your part.

Whenever a comment/question of this nature comes up, I'm usually curious as to how the petitioner arrived at his/her conclusion.

Again it appears from the comment quoted above that your original post was simply a guess and that maybe there is a bit of envy there?

So, I ask you straight out: How did you determine that the amateurs in question were running "serious QRO"? (whatever that is...)

There are too many other factors that might account for the big signals to focus on only one aspect.

Is this a bit of reverse psychology?

Curious minds wish to know...

BTW, before you answer, you should know that my station is fairly modest, consisting of Rig, yes an amp, and a dipole fed with ladder line up about 30 meters. No big QRO, no multi stacked beams, etc... I still manage to get good signal reports with or without the amp. The amp is used mostly on forty meters these days.

I too, hear the "big stations" on nearly every day, but bear them no ill will or envy life is too short for that...

73 Gary

PS: Life istoo short for QRP!

[WA9SVD]

You have a good list here, but you forgot what I think is the most likely answer:

It's a mistake.

Maybe they were all powered up because they were DXing and then got sidetracked? Is that not a reasonable scenario?

Not when they already get a "5x9" report, and kick in the amp because they aren't "pinning the meter" on the radio at the other end... There are all too many amp owners that feel anything less than a "40 over" signal is a poor reflection on their "hamhood."

BTW, it's often easy to tell if an operator is using an amp when they talk about it on the air. All it takes in many cases is to listen for a minute or two. No "assumption" or guess need be made.

[KD6NIG]

Well, at least in a contest, the 599 report for them would be true.

I just wonder how many things they light up in their neighbors home when they get on the air.

[VO1GXG]

i prefer to pick the station out of the noise then have the station handed to my on a platter :P Sounds like a Applince operator type deal :)

[KB3LAZ]

I was tuning across the 20m band earlier and at 14.240, came across a net having a bit of a banter. Seeing as how I was in the middle of testing a new antenna and these boys were coming in at S9+10 from the US (and I'm in Ireland) I figured that I could use them as a benchmark.
At one point, I had the doublet disconnected from the feedline, and then disconnected the feedline from the ATU and dropped it on the floor... meaning that the only coupling from the antenna to the ATU was via 2 air-gaps of 3 feet each... and these guys were not only still audible, they were loud. I'd be proud of that signal to a good antenna system, let alone one with large breaks in the feedline.
My query is this... if you're going to run kilowatt RF into gainy antennas, leading to a situation where armchair copy is guaranteed, and all just for a ragchew... why bother using a radio at all? Just conference call.
This may seem like flamebait, and if flames result, so be it, but if there's no challenge, then it's just a really expensive phonecall, no?

Id have to say this is because not all amateurs want a challenge at all times.
Some times its just nice to sit back and talk to a group of people with similar interests, and not have to worry about this that and the other. However this is just my opinion to each their own.

[AG3Y]

"They are, and for the most part, the sort of replies I hoped to get. THB, though, I would have liked a bit more argument from the QRO camp. Sure, there were a few abstract arguments as to why one may run power, but nobody chimed in to say that they were the sort of multi-kilowatt-station-with-stacked-beams that I was talking about."

Oh, come now! You don't really think that someone with that sort of station is going to get on a public forum, admit to having that sort of setup, and brag about it, considering that representatives from the F.C.C. could just as easily read these words as the next guy !

But then again. . . . . NEVER MIND !

[WG7X]

WA9SVD adds:
BTW, it's often easy to tell if an operator is using an amp when they talk about it on the air. All it takes in many cases is to listen for a minute or two. No "assumption" or guess need be made.

Really?

I would have never have thought that.

Thanks for your answer, obviously if the folks in questions made mention of their power level that would be the easy conclusion; I'm interested in the thoughts of the original poster. He never mentioned how he arrived at the " BIG QRO" conclusion.

Did he in fact, hear a station description, or did he jump to a conclusion simply because the stations in question had big signals?

As before, I'm only asking for my own interest... Well maybe because whenever a station has a big signal, assumptions are always made about the power level.

Power level is only one of the many variables, is it not?

Food for thought...

Gary

[EI8DRB]

EI8DBR sez:

Well now, I was waiting to hear how you had determined that the Amateurs in question were running "serious QRO" and now I can see that it appears to be a guess on your part.
.
.
Again it appears from the comment quoted above that your original post was simply a guess and that maybe there is a bit of envy there?

So, I ask you straight out: How did you determine that the amateurs in question were running "serious QRO"? (whatever that is...)
.
.
I too, hear the "big stations" on nearly every day, but bear them no ill will or envy life is too short for that...

73 Gary

PS: Life istoo short for QRP!

Hi Gary... to quote from my original post...



At one point, I had the doublet disconnected from the feedline, and then disconnected the feedline from the ATU and dropped it on the floor... meaning that the only coupling from the antenna to the ATU was via 2 air-gaps of 3 feet each... and these guys were not only still audible, they were loud. I'd be proud of that signal to a good antenna system, let alone one with large breaks in the feedline.


I was hardly picking up any static, no local qrm (of which there is much) and yet I could hear at least 2 distinct stations. That, to my mind, is significant of a rather substantial signal.


I too, hear the "big stations" on nearly every day, but bear them no ill will or envy life is too short for that...


You misunderstand me. I bear no ill will myself, I'm just curious as to what drives the various flavour of amateur. As for envy... it's not an emotion I usually give much space to, but sometimes (and I believe we are all guilty of this) one can find themselves thinking 'wow... I wouldn't mind having this rig or that antenna', when in reality, it's not going to happen, because we simply can't afford them. Sure, I'd love a loaded K3 with a primo 160m full wave loop, but right now it's simply something I must dream about. I know one or two people who have such a setup, and yeah, I sometimes find myself envious of them... but not for long, as I know that superficialities are never the whole story of someone.

I'm curious to know why some people take this so personally... who misread my words to contain something more than curiosity and the desire for debate.



PS: Life istoo short for QRP!


I know this is just a throwaway catchphrase, but misread, there is more intolerance in these few words than my question, so I suppose is is possible that any question or statement can be misinterpreted.

Thanks for your input, Gary...

[KC2TAU]

EI8DBR sez:

Well now, I was waiting to hear how you had determined that the Amateurs in question were running "serious QRO" and now I can see that it appears to be a guess on your part.

Whenever a comment/question of this nature comes up, I'm usually curious as to how the petitioner arrived at his/her conclusion.

Again it appears from the comment quoted above that your original post was simply a guess and that maybe there is a bit of envy there?

So, I ask you straight out: How did you determine that the amateurs in question were running "serious QRO"? (whatever that is...)

There are too many other factors that might account for the big signals to focus on only one aspect.

Is this a bit of reverse psychology?

Curious minds wish to know...

BTW, before you answer, you should know that my station is fairly modest, consisting of Rig, yes an amp, and a dipole fed with ladder line up about 30 meters. No big QRO, no multi stacked beams, etc... I still manage to get good signal reports with or without the amp. The amp is used mostly on forty meters these days.

I too, hear the "big stations" on nearly every day, but bear them no ill will or envy life is too short for that...

73 Gary

PS: Life istoo short for QRP!


What the hell,dude? Life is too short for QRP? Personally I get a lot more satisfaction of working a guy in,say,Belgium(and I did indeed work OS8A yesterday on 20 SSB on 10 watts and a 40' dipole thrown into a tree)on atleast 1/10th of the power others are running than firing up some massive amp and letting it and the beam do the lifting.

[N4MXZ]

EI8DBR sez:

Well now, I was waiting to hear how you had determined that the Amateurs in question were running "serious QRO" and now I can see that it appears to be a guess on your part.

Whenever a comment/question of this nature comes up, I'm usually curious as to how the petitioner arrived at his/her conclusion.

Again it appears from the comment quoted above that your original post was simply a guess and that maybe there is a bit of envy there?

So, I ask you straight out: How did you determine that the amateurs in question were running "serious QRO"? (whatever that is...)

There are too many other factors that might account for the big signals to focus on only one aspect.

Is this a bit of reverse psychology?

Curious minds wish to know...

BTW, before you answer, you should know that my station is fairly modest, consisting of Rig, yes an amp, and a dipole fed with ladder line up about 30 meters. No big QRO, no multi stacked beams, etc... I still manage to get good signal reports with or without the amp. The amp is used mostly on forty meters these days.

I too, hear the "big stations" on nearly every day, but bear them no ill will or envy life is too short for that...

73 Gary

PS: Life istoo short for QRP!

I assumed (maybe wrongly so) that he wanted an answer as to why people ran qro, and just used the specific example because it reminded him to ask why. It didn't seem important to the discussion whether the stations in question were actually running high power or not :)

[w4nti]

The "why use all that power when not needed" is a very old question in ham radio indeed.

Some answers are:
1. "Because I can"
2. "If I don't, the qrm will move in close"
3. "If one of my friends is listening, I want to make sure he/she hears me"
4. "If someone needs my country, state, county etc, then they will be able to hear me and contact me"
5. "I am tired of Bubba down/up the band and want to p*** him off"
6. "muhahaha"

Dan/W4NTI; your response made so little sense it bordered on being non sequitur.


And your response did? This is a joke, right? I really don't want to get too insulting here, oh sure I do. Your response is _____________ Fill in the blanks.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

I just find it a little annoying with me being QRP and all trying to call a station and getting smashed by all the big kilowatt big guns. I understand I signed up for this when I decided on going QRP but damn do some of these people have way too much money and little to do.

Next time you hear a DX station you want. You fire up on his calling frequency and scream QRP QRP QRP Please everyone shutup while I call him...See it that works.

Dan/W4NTI

[KC2TAU]

Next time you hear a DX station you want. You fire up on his calling frequency and scream QRP QRP QRP Please everyone shutup while I call him...See it that works.

Dan/W4NTI

Hahaha,good one. Nah,I know I've got to dice with the big guns and thats what makes it fun and challenging. Cracking the pileup to work that Belgian yesterday was awesome,just have to find the gaps!

[w4nti]

You can have a complete understanding of the physical properties and electronics behind it all and still feel that it is magical!
It has been magical to me since I first got a Hallicrafters S120 when I was 11 years old and it still seems magical. If it isn't to you then I am glad I am me and it is! :)
As to breaking pileups, sometimes it is just being QRO or using a monster beam.
I wouldn't trade skill and experience at figuring out what the DX is doing with a pile up and what I have learned about the different bands for all the luck in the world.
Perseverance does pay off. But while some persevere in calling endlessly on the same frequency in hopes of "getting lucky", I (as do many) persevere in figuring out what the DX is doing and when band condx are going to favor me, or if they will. Usually when I decide it is time to get into the foray, I am done in a few minutes. You make your own luck.
Luck is just an abstract concept by which we explain good and/or bad things that we cannot explain or quantify in any other way.

Congratulations sir, you are indeed a real HAM. Thank you.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Most of your replies are polite and convey some meaning but one respondent is obviously ignorant. I expect he carries a rack of guns in the back of a large, shiny pickup. It is a "man" thing as some women are inclined to tell us these days, all b***s and few brains.

Still ain't over the war of 1812 yet, eh?

Dan/W4NTI

[N4MXZ]

And your response did? This is a joke, right? I really don't want to get too insulting here, oh sure I do. Your response is _____________ Fill in the blanks.

Dan/W4NTI

Hehe I told it like it really is...can't take the truth???
You were out of line attacking an innocent, albeit naive post.
Get over yourself :D

[KC2TAU]

Still ain't over the war of 1812 yet, eh?

Dan/W4NTI

Hello Dan calling Dan hello Dan,the village called and they're missing their idiot.

[KB3LAZ]

Next time you hear a DX station you want. You fire up on his calling frequency and scream QRP QRP QRP Please everyone shutup while I call him...See it that works.

Dan/W4NTI

Wow that had a painful effect on me, coffee just came out my nose, lol.
Man if he does that on the air i will have to clean coffee off my radio.:p

[w4nti]

Hahaha,good one. Nah,I know I've got to dice with the big guns and thats what makes it fun and challenging. Cracking the pileup to work that Belgian yesterday was awesome,just have to find the gaps!

Same here, busting the pileup is MOSTLY a case of GREAT SIGNAL and Luck.

I have an amplifier, it does a maximum of 800w. But guess what? With a decent beam you can make up for that amp. If you put up a simple Tri-bander for 20-15-10 and run 100 watts output you have already surpassed 70 percent of the stations in that Pileup. A minimum of a S-unit gained by the antenna. (now don't all you super tech's start a discussion on S units please..hi)....Then you listen, find the stations pattern, if split find the last caller, maybe you need to go up or down after you find it. LISTEN.

And if that don't work....Kick on the AMP.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Hehe I told it like it really is...can't take the truth???
You were out of line attacking an innocent, albeit naive post.
Get over yourself :D

Just saying it like it is and you can't stand it.

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

Hello Dan calling Dan hello Dan,the village called and they're missing their idiot.

Your looking for N4MXZ right?

Dan/W4NTI

[K3WRV]

I think the 14.240 guys are what is/was the INDXA (International DX Association) bunch. Theye've been chased around by the digitrixers (started out on 14.233. trhen 236) and are probably (?) running legal power in their various countries. But they DO mostly have good antennae and are former contesters, tho most of them don't do that anymore - they've got better sense.

But unlike the majority of hams these days, they also have receivers, and I've broken them at 5 W SSB. They hear as well as talk, which is porbably more than can be said for most of us.

[K8MHZ]

Ya know something... I'm going to let that pass... purely because I know you haven't tasted the nectar that is Galway Hooker (http://www.galwayhooker.ie/site/home/). Before you fall about laughing, it's named after a fishing boat rather than a working girl, but, IMO, has more in common with the latter, being a fine thirst quencher rather than just smelling of fish... oh, wait...

There is only one way to settle this debate. Man to man. Let's figure out a way to meet sometime in the summer (Oberon is only available then) face to face. I will bring a couple mini-kegs of Oberon, a suitable supply of frozen glass mugs, a few fresh oranges (you won't understand until you have a slice floating in the Oberon touch your nose) and you bring some Galway Hooker. I also suggest a bit of our local summer sausage and a few filets of smoked Lake Michigan salmon just in case we need something to do in between sips. If Galway is anything like Oberon, driving after we work out our differences is not going to be an option.

Let's say we set out on the deck with my portable station, get half way into our challenge and get on 14.275 and give the wacky canadian the once over while we go head to head with our personal challenge. It should be the best confrontation we have ever had. The summers here are by far the best anywhere and the view of the creek from our deck is second to none.

What say OM? I haven't ever met a fellow Irishman back away from a challenge like that!

Also, Dan is a friend of mine and me thinks he is jerking your chain. If you can make it here from Ireland I will try to get him to come up from Alabama and umpire. I doubt he would refuse the chance to hear a couple of half drunk Irishmen cut loose on the canadian wacko first hand.

:D

[EI8DRB]

What say OM? I haven't ever met a fellow Irishman back away from a challenge like that!


If I ever make it to Michigan, I say you have got yourself a challenge there, OM.

[WY6K]

All this fuss over a power limit (legal) that is less than a good hairdryer. I can't get too worked up over the issue of whether or not someone runs at a power level of 1 hairdryer, 2 hairdryers, or 1/2 hairdryer.

Having said all that, there does seem to be an issue of fairness here. In the interest of fairness, it would seem that hams should stick to the power limit, and hams who run QRP should not expect special treatement, and - in the interest of fairness - hams ought to refrain from criticizing those who operate differently than themselves and hams who have bigger rigs and hams who have more money.

Like one of the other posters, I question the assertion made that lots of hams are running from 5kw up to 20 kw. I would like to know how you know that. Do you run that kind of power yourself? Or have you seen their rigs? Or do you assume anyone with a great signal is running too much power? Sort of a sour grapes thing?

To wit: Hear big signal, assume illegal power, assume expensive transceiver, assume guy is rich, green monster emerges, make bitter post on QRZ about high power guys.

For the record, and before anybody asks, I don't have any amps that will run more than the legal limit. (However, now that I think about it - that would be kinda cool though, tube with handles - have to rewire shack for 3 phase 440 vac, etc! Whoops! Hold on! Stifle that evil urge, stick to the SB-221.).

[N4MXZ]

Like one of the other posters, I question the assertion made that lots of hams are running from 5kw up to 20 kw. I would like to know how you know that. Do you run that kind of power yourself? Or have you seen their rigs? Or do you assume anyone with a great signal is running too much power? Sort of a sour grapes thing?

To wit: Hear big signal, assume illegal power, assume expensive transceiver, assume guy is rich, green monster emerges, make bitter post on QRZ about high power guys.

For the record, and before anybody asks, I don't have any amps that will run more than the legal limit. (However, now that I think about it - that would be kinda cool though, tube with handles - have to rewire shack for 3 phase 440 vac, etc! Whoops! Hold on! Stifle that evil urge, stick to the SB-221.).

Alot of hams run 5 kw. The Alpha 77DX and the Henry 5k are still quite popular and make 5kw. 3cx3000s are numerous; as are pairs of 4-1000 and 3-1000s; all of which make close to 5kw (more or less :D) . I have seen them in person. A number of AM stations still run the Gates and Collins broadcast transmitters at 3 - 10 kw on 160 and 75m. I have seen them in person.
As for 20kw, I have known or known of, 2 in almost 30 years. 1 had a "pole pig" and 440 3 phase and operated mostly 20m in the 70s and 80s. I have seen pictures of one of them, owned by an sk; but very well known in certain circles.

[WY6K]

Alot of hams run 5 kw. The Alpha 77DX and the Henry 5k are still quite popular and make 5kw. 3cx3000s are numerous; as are pairs of 4-1000 and 3-1000s; all of which make close to 5kw. I have seen them in person. A number of AM stations still run the Gates and Collins broadcast transmitters at 3 - 10 kw on 160 and 75m. I have seen them in person.
As for 20kw, I have known or known of, 2 in almost 30 years. 1 had a "pole pig" and 440 3 phase and operated mostly 20m in the 70s and 80s. I have seen pictures of one of them, an sk, but very well known in certain circles.

I know there are a few. But 2 in 30 years isn't so many. There was one guy in the Bay Area who I used to chat with all the time (but can't remember his call now - must be getting old) on the 2 meter commute each day who got busted for running 25 kw. They took all his gear and fined him. He was a good boy after that. But that's the only one I've been close to in the flesh. I don't doubt some people run megapower, but is it 10 or 10,000 offenders? I wonder how many Alpha 77SXs were sold? (Not to be a nitpicker, but the DX is single tube and the SX is two tubes, but I know what you meant, the two tuber).

[N4MXZ]

I know there are a few. But 2 in 30 years isn't so many. There was one guy in the Bay Area who I used to chat with all the time (but can't remember his call now - must be getting old) on the 2 meter commute each day who got busted for running 25 kw. They took all his gear and fined him. He was a good boy after that. But that's the only one I've been close to in the flesh. I don't doubt some people run megapower, but is it 10 or 10,000 offenders?

Agreed....but what I said was:

There are some very high power stations on 20m here in the states.
5 kw is not unusual, and 20kw is not unheard of. :eek:
I did not mean to imply that 20kw stations were running rampant on the bands.
:cool:

[WG7X]

WY6K Said it short and to the point:


Or do you assume anyone with a great signal is running too much power? Sort of a sour grapes thing?

To wit: Hear big signal, assume illegal power, assume expensive transceiver, assume guy is rich, green monster emerges, make bitter post on QRZ about high power guys.

Notice that the EI8 still has not quantified his conclusion about the "Serious QRO".

Sure, some hams run over the legal limit. That's not the point. The point is that one cannot simply assume because someone else has a strong signal that he/she is somehow violating either:


Local regulations,which vary from country to country.

Amateur etiquette or tradition.


So... I'm not upset either, just amazed that someone would come on the 'Zed with such a blanket statement and expect a rational discussion...


Especially on the 'Zed!

I run as much power as seems necessary, from QRP to QRO, dictated mostly by band conditions or mode.

BTW: And this is inflammatory I know, but most of you QRP guys owe your success to those big stations and you know it. I can't tell you how many times I've struggled to pull your dishwater weak signals out of the mud. Bearing in mind that I don't have the big station but I've operated at a few...


Even at my poor 'Ol Radio WG7X I get called by QRP operators all the time.

Why?

Because they can hear me that's why!

I wish I could always same that the reverse was true...


SRI OM just funnin ya!

73 Gary

[KC2TAU]

Your looking for N4MXZ right?

Dan/W4NTI


Hahaha,nah I'm just joshing with you. No hard feelings,mate!

[N2RJ]

WY6K Said it short and to the point:



Notice that the EI8 still has not quantified his conclusion about the "Serious QRO".

Sure, some hams run over the legal limit. That's not the point. The point is that one cannot simply assume because someone else has a strong signal that he/she is somehow violating either:


Local regulations,which vary from country to country.

Amateur etiquette or tradition.


So... I'm not upset either, just amazed that someone would come on the 'Zed with such a blanket statement and expect a rational discussion...


Especially on the 'Zed!

I run as much power as seems necessary, from QRP to QRO, dictated mostly by band conditions or mode.

BTW: And this is inflammatory I know, but most of you QRP guys owe your success to those big stations and you know it. I can't tell you how many times I've struggled to pull your dishwater weak signals out of the mud. Bearing in mind that I don't have the big station but I've operated at a few...


Even at my poor 'Ol Radio WG7X I get called by QRP operators all the time.

Why?

Because they can hear me that's why!

I wish I could always same that the reverse was true...


SRI OM just funnin ya!

73 Gary


What you are saying is true.

I think ARRL should sponsor the "2x QRP DXCC challenge" and offer a special certificate for contacts with 100 countries (any band, any mode) with both stations being QRP.

Any station accomplishing that, especially at the bottom of the cycle, has my utmost respect.

[WA9SVD]

All this fuss over a power limit (legal) that is less than a good hairdryer. I can't get too worked up over the issue of whether or not someone runs at a power level of 1 hairdryer, 2 hairdryers, or 1/2 hairdryer.

Having said all that, there does seem to be an issue of fairness here. In the interest of fairness, it would seem that hams should stick to the power limit, and hams who run QRP should not expect special treatement, and - in the interest of fairness - hams ought to refrain from criticizing those who operate differently than themselves and hams who have bigger rigs and hams who have more money.

Like one of the other posters, I question the assertion made that lots of hams are running from 5kw up to 20 kw. I would like to know how you know that. Do you run that kind of power yourself? Or have you seen their rigs? Or do you assume anyone with a great signal is running too much power? Sort of a sour grapes thing?

To wit: Hear big signal, assume illegal power, assume expensive transceiver, assume guy is rich, green monster emerges, make bitter post on QRZ about high power guys.

For the record, and before anybody asks, I don't have any amps that will run more than the legal limit. (However, now that I think about it - that would be kinda cool though, tube with handles - have to rewire shack for 3 phase 440 vac, etc! Whoops! Hold on! Stifle that evil urge, stick to the SB-221.).

I believe you miss the point.

Anyone running more than legal limit is "CHEATING." They (at least in their own mind) feel they can't excel by sheer skill, and not having the loudest, most effective signal for DX is somehow a reflection on some inadequacy of their "hamhood." (If you get my drift.) But they resort to running more power than is legal, to compensate for the greater skill or techniques (and possibly better equipmnent) of other operators. (Higher than legal power is sort of a "Viagara" for some.)

[N5FOG]

What you are saying is true.

I think ARRL should sponsor the "2x QRP DXCC challenge" and offer a special certificate for contacts with 100 countries (any band, any mode) with both stations being QRP.

Any station accomplishing that, especially at the bottom of the cycle, has my utmost respect.


The problem with such an award is proving the award applicant was REALLY running QRP for those contacts.

What would the "QRP" standard be, PEP or ERP? After all running 10 watts into a set of stacked beams is going to have ALLOT more ERP than a station running 10 watts into a dipole or long wire.

Heck a 10 watt station on stacked beams is going have as much ERP as 100 watt station on a long wire.

So the only real fair standard for the award would be ERP.

But I agree if someone honestly got DXCC QRP they would have defiantly earned ALLOT of respect.



FOG

[K8MHZ]

If I ever make it to Michigan, I say you have got yourself a challenge there, OM.

I'll keep a light on for you. And if the ale doesn't quite cut it, I think we can get a bottle of Bushmill's from the party store within walking distance from my QTH.

And what a fine walk it would be, right past the Norton Shores Police Department and DPW.

In fact, let's make it two bottles. I don't think one is enough for the trek back home. We have to have something to wash the rest of the salmon down with. If there is any left, that is (who would care at that point!).

73 OM de K8MHZ

(An Irish Derby, not an English Derby)

[N2RJ]

The problem with such an award is proving the award applicant was REALLY running QRP for those contacts.


That's not a problem. A lot of DXCC rules are via the honor system anyway, including QRP DXCC.

I could very well cheat, use my amp, heck I could even run 5kW and make 100 contacts with 100 countries, apply for and get QRP DXCC and ARRL would be none the wiser.

But in the end all I've done is cheat myself.


What would the "QRP" standard be, PEP or ERP? After all running 10 watts into a set of stacked beams is going to have ALLOT more ERP than a station running 10 watts into a dipole or long wire.

Heck a 10 watt station on stacked beams is going have as much ERP as 100 watt station on a long wire.

So the only real fair standard for the award would be ERP.

Why?

All I am saying is apply the QRP criteria to both stations, not just the awardee.

No need to bring ERP into the picture and make it more complicated than it should be.

[K8MHZ]

But in the end all I've done is cheat myself.

Truer words have never been spoken. You summed it up quite well, my friend.

[N5FOG]

No need to bring ERP into the picture and make it more complicated than it should be.

I think there is a good reason to bring up the subject of ERP as I stated above.

Would you have the same respect for someone who got a QRP DXCC award running 5 watts into a huge stacked array as you would someone who did it with a 5 watts and a long wire or dipole.

I don't know about you but I would respect the guy with the dipole a hell of allot more.

Without ERP requirements you truly don't have the level playing field that QRP award claims to have.


FOG

[VK4AGK]

<snip>

Lets look at trying to work say Heard Island.

Dan/W4NTI

Aye , i heard the same island too :)

(could'nt help it)

[KB3LAZ]

That's not a problem. A lot of DXCC rules are via the honor system anyway, including QRP DXCC.

I could very well cheat, use my amp, heck I could even run 5kW and make 100 contacts with 100 countries, apply for and get QRP DXCC and ARRL would be none the wiser.

But in the end all I've done is cheat myself.


Bravo, that alone earns my respect. Cheating is pointless as all you have accomplished is nothing. What would it bring, only a hollow feeling deep within ones self. The immature know that cheating is wrong, however the mature refrain from cheating.

[KB3LAZ]

The problem with such an award is proving the award applicant was REALLY running QRP for those contacts.

What would the "QRP" standard be, PEP or ERP? After all running 10 watts into a set of stacked beams is going to have ALLOT more ERP than a station running 10 watts into a dipole or long wire.

Heck a 10 watt station on stacked beams is going have as much ERP as 100 watt station on a long wire.

So the only real fair standard for the award would be ERP.

But I agree if someone honestly got DXCC QRP they would have defiantly earned ALLOT of respect.



FOG

This may be true, however I would respect an operator running 5w into stacked beams more than an operator running 1.5kw into a dipole.
If only because they know what an antenna is. Any one can throw up a wire and put a kilowatt or more through it. But to actually put thought into your station takes effort. So the extra effort alone earns my respect.

[N4MXZ]

This may be true, however I would respect an operator running 5w into stacked beams more than an operator running 1.5kw into a dipole.
If only because they know what an antenna is. Any one can throw up a wire and put a kilowatt or more through it. But to actually put thought into your station takes effort. So the extra effort alone earns my respect.

Really?
I believe even most 11m operators can relate to "stacked beams". With this mentality, all you are doing is 'giving' the advantage to whomever has the most money. As an engineer I have more respect for the guy who homebrews his pair of 8877s and runs them into some sort of homebrew antenna system; be it wire beams, Sterba Curtains, Bruce Arrays, Rhombics, or whatever. Now THAT's effort.

[KB3LAZ]

Really?
I believe even most 11m operators can relate to "stacked beams". With this mentality, all you are doing is 'giving' the advantage to whomever has the most money. As an engineer I have more respect for the guy who homebrews his pair of 8877s and runs them into some sort of homebrew antenna system; be it wire beams, sturba curtains, Bruce Arrays or whatever. Now THAT's effort.

True but most operators will not do this. Only a fraction of hams home brew their amps. Most will just drop the 3k plus bucks on one. No effort there. In this case who is taking advantage of monetary value. Besides beams dont have to be expensive either, they also can be home brew.

[W6TMI]

Don't get me wrong... I have no problem with it... to be honest, having listened to them, they seem like polite, technically aware folk, and those are two ingredients I would deem important in the radio ham. I just don't see what they get out of it.
But then again, many people would wonder what I get out of trying in vain to break a pileup with 50w and a rubbish antenna... but when I do... wow, what a buzz.

Bub, you don't know rubbish until you run a magloop indoors. Or for yucks try an err... I forget the name, looks like a bird feeder..

That there is rubbish!

[WA9SVD]

Really?
I believe even most 11m operators can relate to "stacked beams". With this mentality, all you are doing is 'giving' the advantage to whomever has the most money. As an engineer I have more respect for the guy who homebrews his pair of 8877s and runs them into some sort of homebrew antenna system; be it wire beams, Sterba Curtains, Bruce Arrays, Rhombics, or whatever. Now THAT's effort.

A pair of 8877's? When a single tube is already capable of more than the (U.S.) legal limit? Strange sense of "respect," but obviously not for FCC rules and regulations...

[N4MXZ]

A pair of 8877's? When a single tube is already capable of more than the (U.S.) legal limit? Strange sense of "respect," but obviously not for FCC rules and regulations...

Oh please.
Spare me the altruistic rhetoric. That was just an example.

Even so;
Alpha and Henry sold amps like that for years. In fact the Alpha 77dx was THE STANDARD CONTEST AMP for almost 3 decades. "They" will tell you that the 2 8877s were for duty cycle and they never ran more than legal limit :D

[WG7X]

Yes,

It's just that attitude displayed here that rubs the wrong way.

Same old stuff, different day.

The idea that low power operation some how makes the operation more pure and dedicated to the Amateur radio ideal is just wrong.

Amateur operators have always tried to make their stations better and better. Sometimes this means better antennas, radios, amplifiers, etc...

If you really enjoy operating with half-a-watt into a dipole crammed into the closet, well OK for you. Just don't expect the rest of us to buy into your idea of fun.

If I can hear you, I'll gladly work/ have a chat/ whatever with you and no doubt enjoy the process. The important part is that we make the connection in the first place.

73 Gary

[WY6K]

Yes,

It's just that attitude displayed here that rubs the wrong way.

Same old stuff, different day.

The idea that low power operation some how makes the operation more pure and dedicated to the Amateur radio ideal is just wrong.

Amateur operators have always tried to make their stations better and better. Sometimes this means better antennas, radios, amplifiers, etc...

If you really enjoy operating with half-a-watt into a dipole crammed into the closet, well OK for you. Just don't expect the rest of us to buy into your idea of fun.

If I can hear you, I'll gladly work/ have a chat/ whatever with you and no doubt enjoy the process. The important part is that we make the connection in the first place.

73 Gary

Yeah, what he said!

It annoys me that the "small is beautiful" crowd has slipped into ham radio. I don't see anything noble about QRP - interesting for the builder of the gear, but that's it. It's actually a pain in the ass for the rest of us to pull your lousy signal out of the static. Another way of looking at it is that those of you who insist on running too little power are quite inconsiderate to those of us who have to listen to your weak signal. It would be polite to use enough power so the QSO with you is not painful.

I respect people who experiment, people who build their own gear. But that doesn't make QRP operation "noble", nor does it make those who run enough power to have good signals "less worthy" or "wasteful" or "pigs" or "somehow suspect".

[WY6K]

Really?
I believe even most 11m operators can relate to "stacked beams". With this mentality, all you are doing is 'giving' the advantage to whomever has the most money. As an engineer I have more respect for the guy who homebrews his pair of 8877s and runs them into some sort of homebrew antenna system; be it wire beams, Sterba Curtains, Bruce Arrays, Rhombics, or whatever. Now THAT's effort.

There is just so much wrong with this.

First of all: who is "giving the advantage" to anyone? Who is giving anything? If someone wants to build big antennas, why should anyone object?

Second: what's wrong with someone with more money having an advantage? When don't people with more money have an advantage? And don't get confused, this isn't a sport and big antennas are not a form of cheating like steroids. We all have the same ionosphere, and that is our "level playing field". What we do with it from there on is the "test", and that includes our ability to buy or build the best rigs possible.

Third: No amount of antennas is illegal but running two 8877s at their ratings is illegal. You seem to be, in this post at least, respecting illegal actions while condemning totally legal antenna systems.

I have no problem with you respecting someone's ability to build their own stuff. I do have a problem with you dissing people because they use their money to buy all or part of their station.

[N4MXZ]

:rolleyes:
There is just so much wrong with this.

First of all: who is "giving the advantage" to anyone? Who is giving anything? If someone wants to build big antennas, why should anyone object?

Second: what's wrong with someone with more money having an advantage? When don't people with more money have an advantage? And don't get confused, this isn't a sport and big antennas are not a form of cheating like steroids. We all have the same ionosphere, and that is our "level playing field". What we do with it from there on is the "test", and that includes our ability to buy or build the best rigs possible.

Third: No amount of antennas is illegal but running two 8877s at their ratings is illegal. You seem to be, in this post at least, respecting illegal actions while condemning totally legal antenna systems.

I have no problem with you respecting someone's ability to build their own stuff. I do have a problem with you dissing people because they use their money to buy all or part of their station.

Get your facts straight.
1. I never advocated illegal power. I made a factual statement as to the use of a particular type of amplifier, nothing more.
2. I didn't dis anyone. I made a general statement.

If my opinion that ham radio is more about building than buying; then I am allowed that opinion. If you have a problem with me, that is a personal issue you must deal with. Since your argument with me is based on fabrication; it seems that you have more than one issue. :eek:
I neither need nor want your approval :rolleyes:

Oh ..you were correct in one statement...you DO have a problem :D

[KD0DKI]

I'm just a Tech but but Samuel Smiths Imperial Stout will cause even the best of beer drinkers to think twice.
Comes in a clear bottle you can't see through and is about 7% I love the stuff but can't afford it to often.

[WA9SVD]

Yeah, what he said!

It annoys me that the "small is beautiful" crowd has slipped into ham radio. I don't see anything noble about QRP - interesting for the builder of the gear, but that's it. It's actually a pain in the ass for the rest of us to pull your lousy signal out of the static. Another way of looking at it is that those of you who insist on running too little power are quite inconsiderate to those of us who have to listen to your weak signal. It would be polite to use enough power so the QSO with you is not painful.

I respect people who experiment, people who build their own gear. But that doesn't make QRP operation "noble", nor does it make those who run enough power to have good signals "less worthy" or "wasteful" or "pigs" or "somehow suspect".

There's a place for the QRP operator, just as there's a time and place for full legal limit (if you have it.)
If you hear a weak signal that's not to your liking, it's easy to "spin the knob." There's no law (legal or moral, short of an emergency or distress call) that says you HAVE to answer a call that's not strong enough for your liking.
And yes, it is at least as much the effort of the operator on the receiving end that can make a QRP QSO successful... some operators (even QRO operators) actually welcome the challenge, as it also hones their skills for the times that even QRO doesn't produce "armchair" copy.

[KB3LAZ]

:rolleyes:

Get your facts straight.
1. I never advocated illegal power. I made a factual statement as to the use of a particular type of amplifier, nothing more.
2. I didn't dis anyone. I made a general statement.

If my opinion that ham radio is more about building than buying; then I am allowed that opinion. If you have a problem with me, that is a personal issue you must deal with. Since your argument with me is based on fabrication; it seems that you have more than one issue. :eek:
I neither need nor want your approval :rolleyes:

Oh ..you were correct in one statement...you DO have a problem :D

I understand what your saying, but as I stated only a hand full for people are going to do so now a days. If you build your own radio, amp, and antenna, then yes you have a lot to be proud of.

[WY6K]

There's a place for the QRP operator, just as there's a time and place for full legal limit (if you have it.)
If you hear a weak signal that's not to your liking, it's easy to "spin the knob." There's no law (legal or moral, short of an emergency or distress call) that says you HAVE to answer a call that's not strong enough for your liking.
And yes, it is at least as much the effort of the operator on the receiving end that can make a QRP QSO successful... some operators (even QRO operators) actually welcome the challenge, as it also hones their skills for the times that even QRO doesn't produce "armchair" copy.

What he said. For sure. However, why do so many QRPers adopt a holier than thou attitude? Why do they dis QRO? Whatever happened to live and let live?

[KA4DPO]

What he said. For sure. However, why do so many QRPers adopt a holier than thou attitude? Why do they dis QRO? Whatever happened to live and let live?


That's a good question.

I have operated QRO, QRP, and somwhere in between for years. QRP operation is fun and challenging but sometimes it's nice to crank up the fire a bit. I have never held any grudges one way or the other, I just do what interests me at the time and don't worry about what other hams are doing.