W4INF/B on 30m

[W4INF]

From time to time, I will be running a 30m PSK & CW beacon on 30m on 10.150.

If you can pick it up, Id be interested in knowing where you are, QSL via reply on this thread pse.

Andrew

Update:
I neglected to reference 97.221 prior to this post and have edited the frequency in lines with part 97 requirements.

[W4INF]

Need some help here, Im still new to HF and had not done a beacon before, so before I put this booger in service and be in violation of 97, heres the questions:

97.203 - According to this, you can only run a beacon on 10m for HF.

97.221 - Says I can run an automatic digital station on other bands.

So, I'm confused! I know propnet runs on other bands than 10m for HF- Who is right, who is wrong and what can I do (EG: What am I allowed to do & where)?

Thx..
Andrew

[KI4ITV]

I think the current mode of thought on 30M is that you must be in control of the station while running propnet. It cannot be used as a automatic beacon on that band.
There are those that will argue. But, just watch the station.

[W4INF]

Sounds like I cant go to work and let the beacon run in my absence.

Okay, not ideal... but sounds right.

Anyone else have insight and feedback pse?

Andrew

[KC7YPJ]

no clue on what the beacon rule is, do know propnet is usually at 10.139.50 psk

also you might revise that frequency as I can only hope it's a typo, 10.150 = band edge, given psk is USB

[W4INF]

I know it is USB, that doesn't change where you can hear the transmission. I could park it on 10.145 and you would still "hear it" at 10.151. I only care about band edges for my class.

I am trying to figure out if I can even run a beacon on anything other than 10m HF. If you have something productive to add YPJ, pse post more.

Andrew

[KC7YPJ]

I know it is USB, that doesn't change where you can hear the transmission. I could park it on 10.145 and you would still "hear it" at 10.151. I only care about band edges for my class.

I am trying to figure out if I can even run a beacon on anything other than 10m HF. If you have something productive to add YPJ, pse post more.

Andrew

wow, and I was trying to be nice by letting you know that transmitting a psk signal on the very edge of the band, more correctly 2k ish outside of the band would probably be a bad idea,
since the band is only available to e,a,g classes with identical priviledges I'm trying to figure out wth the band edges for your class comment came from.

since pointing out a clear violation of out of band transmission doesn't qualify as productive I'm guessing that pointing out that propnet beacons regularly and the frequency it does so on is useless snipeing as well.

productive, google propnet I'm sure you can find out all about how to beacon 30m at there site,
I could give a ratts ass about hearing yet another beacon,
I do however have a problem with people that apparently don't take the time to properly understand band edges then get pissed off when someone tries to let them know the chosen freq is in clear violation of the rules.
if your parking a psk signal at 10.145 unless you have the settings completely fubar or went goud budy getz more pounds with the levels you shouldn't hear it out of band 6k away...

productive enough?

[W4INF]

There is a CW beacon at 10.140, I guess that is out of "band" also. Likely not, its a VE station. I figure it would be out of band if I were the CW beacon, according ot 97. Im trying to figure this all out. The more I read, the more confused I am.

I guess closer to the "center" of the two allotted freqs would be a safer bet.

I think you misunderstood my previous post, or I worded it wrong. Please follow up with any more information you may have.

TU-
Andrew

[K0HWY]

There is a CW beacon at 10.140, I guess that is out of "band" also. Likely not, its a VE station. I figure it would be out of band if I were the CW beacon, according ot 97. Im trying to figure this all out. The more I read, the more confused I am.

I guess closer to the "center" of the two allotted freqs would be a safer bet.

I think you misunderstood my previous post, or I worded it wrong. Please follow up with any more information you may have.

TU-
Andrew

The 30 meter band runs from 10.1 - 10.15 MHz. Any signals you create that get out of that frequency range place you out of your operating privileges and in violation of FCC Rules. Operating on 10.15 in ANY MODE will place you outside the limits of the 30m amateur band. There's a HUGE difference between that beacon on 10.14 and your chosen frequency of 10.15. You are familiar with the bandwidth of various modes, right? Know the bandwidths associated with your chosen mode and allow a little extra tolerance, just to be on the safe side. And that just doesn't apply to beacons.

[W4INF]

HWY & YPJ-
I sat down with HRD on the laptop which has the bands on it after I read ur post, and I understand what you were saying... Yes 10.150 is the band edge and parking right on it will allow my emissions to be outside the band. I didn't realize this when I was posting, I normally use HRD as a guide when operating since I do rig control... as I change the VFO I can keep an eye on the display and markers to make sure I stay "legal". Sorry, the confusion was on my side.

Now back to the topic... Can I run a beacon on 30, or no??

Thx,
Andrew

[W4INF]

I thought he was saying out of band because my transmission would be at the edge of 10.150, and I was saying the one at 10.140 out of "band" because those two freqs are the upper and lower limit for automatic transmission.

At the time I thought he was referring to the limits as the "band limits", not realizing I was talking about 10.150 as two things... the upper limit for automatic transmissions AND it is the end of the band!

Very sorry for the confusion... Im working on 3 or 4 projects at one time and was totally unaware without the chart right in front of me.

Andrew

[kr2d]

A beacon is different than automated transmission. Automated transmission is for two way communication, such a passing email between two stations as in WinLink. A beacon is broadcasting, one way only. I don't buy Propnet's idea that attended beaconing is allowed - it's still a one way transmission.

Note that I am not a lawyer. This is just the way that I understand the rules. You should ask the FCC if what you propose is legal.

[W4INF]

Who at the FCC do I ask? (Link?)

Andrew

[K9STH]

INF:

You cannot operate a "normal" beacon station, that is an unattended station in the 30 meter band. 47 CFR Part 97 Section 97.203 is VERY specific in this matter:

§97.203 Beacon station.

(a) Any amateur station licensed to a holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be a beacon. A holder of a Technician, Technician Plus, General, Advanced or Amateur Extra Class operator license may be the control operator of a beacon, subject to the privileges of the class of operator license held.

(b) A beacon must not concurrently transmit on more than 1 channel in the same amateur service frequency band, from the same station location.

(c) The transmitter power of a beacon must not exceed 100 W.

(d) A beacon may be automatically controlled while it is transmitting on the 28.20-28.30 MHz, 50.06-50.08 MHz, 144.275-144.300 MHz, 222.05-222.06 MHz, or 432.300-432.400 MHz segments, or on the 33 cm and shorter wavelength bands.

(e) Before establishing an automatically controlled beacon in the National Radio Quiet Zone or before changing the transmitting frequency, transmitter power, antenna height or directivity, the station licensee must give written notification thereof to the Interference Office, National Radio Astronomy Observatory, P.O. Box 2, Green Bank, WV 24944.

(1) The notification must include the geographical coordinates of the antenna, antenna ground elevation above mean sea level (AMSL), antenna center of radiation above ground level (AGL), antenna directivity, proposed frequency, type of emission, and transmitter power.

(2) If an objection to the proposed operation is received by the FCC from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory at Green Bank, Pocahontas County, WV, for itself or on behalf of the Naval Research Laboratory at Sugar Grove, Pendleton County, WV, within 20 days from the date of notification, the FCC will consider all aspects of the problem and take whatever action is deemed appropriate.

(f) A beacon must cease transmissions upon notification by a District Director that the station is operating improperly or causing undue interference to other operations. The beacon may not resume transmitting without prior approval of the District Director.

(g) A beacon may transmit one-way communications.


That means if you operate a beacon station on frequencies below the 10 meter band you MUST be at the location in actual control of the transmissions. Now Canada has different regulations (and a "VE" station is a Canadian licensee). However, as a station under the regulations of the Federal Communications Commission you are required to comply with FCC regulations and therefore no beacon station is allowed to be automatically controlled at a frequency below the 28.200 MHz to 28.300 MHz band. Basically, that means that you can operate a beacon station in the 30 meter band when you are actually present at the transmitter. However, when you leave the location then the transmitter has to cease operation.

Glen, K9STH

[W4INF]

<snip> Basically, that means that you can operate a beacon station in the 30 meter band when you are actually present at the transmitter. However, when you leave the location then the transmitter has to cease operation.

Glen, K9STH

Glen,
TU sir, that was what I thought I was supposed to read into it, you clarified it nicely.

With all your help, I went from confused to clear in 24 hours. :D

Andrew

[N2RJ]

I have to ask though, how do W6WX and KH6WO do it?

[KI4ITV]

Glen does have a way of clearing the air on so much.
Thanks Glen (BTW)...

I have used PropNet software a whole lot in the past couple of years, much of it on 30M. There are many people who question PropNet and whether it is actually legal. I am of the opinion that it is, if properly attended.

It would be hard to find a more useful, real time, propagation indicator than the current implementation of this software. At one time, I knew the location and particulars of many transmitting PropNet stations just by their call. I found it very useful to have in the waterfall while operating PSK and knew almost immediately if the band was going long, or becoming unusually short.

I also understand Simon (of HRD) has started a new reporting feature with his latest release of digital goods. Using a reporting feature as an incidental product of communications software is really the holy grail of propagation study. Kudos to all of you who take the time to provide data!

[k8jd]

I know it is USB, that doesn't change where you can hear the transmission. I could park it on 10.145 and you would still "hear it" at 10.151. I only care about band edges for my class.

Andrew
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Being able to "hear it" and where the emissions actually are, are two far different things.:eek:
Sure you can hear a carrier (Bandwidth one hz ?) way off freq with a cheap ham rig and SSB filter , With a commercial grade monitor it is on only one frequency !

[K9STH]

RJ:

To be legal they have to either be at the location whenever the beacon is in operation or else have some sort of remote control (i.e. over a 222 MHz or 420 MHz radio link or some sort of hard-wire control line such as a telephone line). In any case, a control operator would have to be present unless the beacon is operating in one of the specified band segments.

Glen, K9STH

[N2RJ]

RJ:

To be legal they have to either be at the location whenever the beacon is in operation or else have some sort of remote control (i.e. over a 222 MHz or 420 MHz radio link or some sort of hard-wire control line such as a telephone line). In any case, a control operator would have to be present unless the beacon is operating in one of the specified band segments.

Glen, K9STH

Gotcha.

So that's probably why the east coast beacon is at 4U1UN!

[K9STH]

Ahh!

4U1UN is not under the jurisdiction of the FCC. So long as the beacon identifies as 4U1UN and is located on UN property FCC regulations would not apply. I believe that the same thing would be true if a U.S. station were on UN property and identifying as portable 4U1 then that station would also not be technically under FCC regulations.

Now if someone put in a beacon identifying as 4U1UN that was NOT operating from UN property but was operating from somewhere else that is under FCC jurisdiction then that beacon would not be legal, at least by my understanding of the law.

Glen, K9STH

[w5dwh]

I know it is USB, that doesn't change where you can hear the transmission. I could park it on 10.145 and you would still "hear it" at 10.151. I only care about band edges for my class.

I am trying to figure out if I can even run a beacon on anything other than 10m HF. If you have something productive to add YPJ, pse post more.

Andrew

With your attitude INF you are lucky that anyone posts to your topics.

Guess this one is going like the post you made on the software that you wanted beta testers for...:D:D:D

[KI4ITV]

With your attitude INF you are lucky that anyone posts to your topics.

Guess this one is going like the post you made on the software that you wanted beta testers for...:D:D:D

I guess that since you obviously hear the word "jerk" used in everyday conversation so often. You must think that is how everyone extols their love for one another among like minded individuals.
Don't be confused. You have really cemented your reputation as a total jerk here.

BTW-When was the last time you posted a pictoral "how to" on something useful to almost everyone here? I can tell you that INF just did it two days ago.
What are you doing for us? when I google your call...I come up with a lookup count of 25 and no other groups/ pages/associations. We all leave a paper trail when we are actually trying to help. My recent focus has been on increasing 30M low power operations and you will see that if you really take the time to look.
We should all do something...are you doing your part?

Or, are you just here to point out the flaws of others?

[kd5j]

I have to ask though, how do W6WX and KH6WO do it?


W6WX and KH6WO were granted waivers by the FCC several years ago so that these two stations may participate in the worldwide NCDXF cw beacon network found on 14.100, 21.100, and 28.100.

http://www.ncdxf.org/beacons.html

[n0ov]

Do we use upper side band or lower side band on 30m.










Just kidding........................................... .. :D

[KI4ITV]

Do we use upper side band or lower side band on 30m.










Just kidding........................................... .. :D

Is that a SEARS poncho or a real poncho? (and I am NOT kidding) :D

[W4INF]

ITV, that reminds me, I need to do something for the QRP crowd or wannabes.

And I do admit, sometimes I either come across like a jerk, or I am being a jerk at the time. Mostly I like to think Im not, but like most people from time to time, I have my moments.

Now, what software were you talking about? The portable logging software? More work to be done on that soon! Its not far from ready!

Andrew

[KI4ITV]

ITV, that reminds me, I need to do something for the QRP crowd or wannabes.

And I do admit, sometimes I either come across like a jerk, or I am being a jerk at the time. Mostly I like to think Im not, but like most people from time to time, I have my moments.

Now, what software were you talking about? The portable logging software? More work to be done on that soon! Its not far from ready!

Andrew

Andrew- I hope you don't think I was calling you a jerk. It was the KE5, that really got me going. Hey, I like how involved you are. I'm right there with ya'.

So many people sit around this site a rip others apart for what they do.
It is a crying shame at times. The people doing the most are the ones that get the most grief. Been there, and don't like it when I see it.

Sad times are these, when passing ruffians say NEAP to odd hammies! :D

[N2RJ]

Ahh!

4U1UN is not under the jurisdiction of the FCC. So long as the beacon identifies as 4U1UN and is located on UN property FCC regulations would not apply. I believe that the same thing would be true if a U.S. station were on UN property and identifying as portable 4U1 then that station would also not be technically under FCC regulations.

Now if someone put in a beacon identifying as 4U1UN that was NOT operating from UN property but was operating from somewhere else that is under FCC jurisdiction then that beacon would not be legal, at least by my understanding of the law.

Glen, K9STH


Yep, I know this (hint, I used to work at the UN)

[W4INF]

But, I can be a jerk.

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/071115/martin/jerk_l.jpg

:cool:

[KI4ITV]

I'll have the Sasparilla.
Neat.
:D

[W4INF]

Get away from the cans, there shooting at the cans!