The question about oil I've never heard asked.

[W1GUH]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

I'd vote for any candidate, even the FM, who would push that question.

Of course, I'm pretty safe there...nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.

[W4DFW]

You realize, of course, that the current price of oil is mostly due to the devalued dollar.

Right??

[N4VGB]

I went over to my stock software and all I can say is sorry, the numbers don't support your assertion. Considering so many other corporations have much better numbers and profits there's nothing at all "obscene" involved. The dividends & earnings in oil company stocks are very unstable and not that high at their peak levels.

[K3XR]

Better question, why do the enviro-nazis get a pass on not allowing us to drill for oil in the US and off the coast?

[N5NPO]

Better question, why do the enviro-nazis get a pass on not allowing us to drill for oil in the US and off the coast?

Hey man, you must be for dirty water or something...
What a drag man!

[N5NPO]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

I'd vote for any candidate, even the FM, who would push that question.

Of course, I'm pretty safe there...nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.

You got a point there... If Hillary gets elected, she wants to take those obscene profits and use them to develope alternative energy sources.
YEAH HIL!!!!

[ab1ga]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

(Edited; response limited to one point)


We can start by calculating one worthless number: At $119/bbl, and about 42 gallons/bbl, the current price of gasoline, at perfect conversion, would be $2.83 per gallon, before profit, processing, and transportation cost.

This number is worthless for a couple of reasons:

a. Petroleum is a mixture of many compounds, only one fraction is used directly for gasoline, the next heavier fraction makes diesel, home heating oil, and is cracked to make more gasoline, and the heavier stuff becomes #6 oil and stuff used to pave roads. The actual cost of a gallon of gas thus depends to a large part on where the oil came from.

b. The big oil companies, i.e. Exxon/Mobil, Shell, BP, etc. do not buy oil at the prices you see in the paper. Those are for the spot market, which means relatively small quantities someone needs to buy in a hurry to make up anticipated shortfalls. They are poor indicators of global oil costs because they are not global prices; oil is sensitive to transport cost and the odds are the West Texas Intermediate Crude isn't leaving the US. The Brent North Sea crude is being consumed in Europe and perhaps the US but it doesn't go much further. The big companies strike deals with countries, not brokers. A common deal is for the major oil companies to develop and exploit the field, keeping the money from the sale of the oil, minus a cut for the host government. This is changing as countries take over a larger role in developing and exploiting their oil, but for now it's a good approximation. The upshot is that the spot market for crude is only a small part of crude oil costs for a major oil company.

So why such high revenues? Because that's what the market will bear. If Exxon/Mobil sees a smaller oil provider with higher costs raising his prices, they do too, and reap the extra earnings. They take those extra earnings and either pay dividends, hoard cash, or use the funds to develop new sources of oil, which is increasingly hard to do with increased competition from China and the increased role of host governments. Those costs not only reduce the reported profit, but can also receive beneficial tax treatment.

I firmly believe that the rise in oil prices is due to multiple factors, but that the only one Americans can really control is demand, and to first order that means driving less, starting now, period. Buyers will only break the habit of paying more and more for crude if they get burned doing that by having to sit on unsold inventory.

[KD6NIG]

Simple.

To maintain the 'profit margin' they are used to, they keep raising prices (and will continue to do so) to maintain said "large margin". Course, if the public starts really getting mad and demand goes down enough, then they may have to revisit this.

But, with demand in California only down 1% or 1.5% from last year (ok, its the first drop in many years, but still) they probably aren't too worried. When it hits the point that people only drive to work....and then maybe the numbers might cause enough fear for them to change. Maybe.

I notice too that this year there is a lot of talk about it, but people are still gassing up and doing what they have to do. There seemed to be a lot more outrage last year. Probably because this year with the economy looking the way it is, more people are worrying about their own situations and keeping quiet about it.

They will keep taking the profits as long as they can. Like the mortgage bubble that burst, people will ride the wave till it crashes and the surfboard goes flying. When it does, then you will hear them all cry about reduced profits too.

But they are going to take the money while they can :)

[K8ERV]

What I want to know is why the AAArabs need so much money, and what do they do with it? (Greed is an acceptable answer).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

[KD6NIG]

What I want to know is why the AAArabs need so much money, and what do they do with it? (Greed is an acceptable answer).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

Its not the need, its the fact they can get it.

The moment the consumers cannot afford (and thus support) the prices as stated now, they will fall and they will have to sell at those prices, lest they just want to sit on the pool of oil and make nothing.

Course, they will also manipulate the market (demand is down 1% or so, yet we're still "short" on oil) but they can only do it to an extent.

They will keep testing the waters though. Right now the major oil consumers (us included) don't seem to be balking much at $119 for oil, but that may soon change. Until the breaking point is reached though, they won't be complaining.

I think $4 around here will be the real crying stage. I stopped making extra trips at $3, honestly, and now I really look to combine stuff (or catch it on the way home from work) but there are some who make a bit more than me who are just reaching that stage. The higher it goes, the more that will do it.

I think its going to be quiet on the rivers and lakes this summer, and thats where you'll see more than 1% "less usage" than last year-in the summer months when people use more for recreation.

I'm gonna be recreating at home this summer, count on it :)

[W5GA]

You got a point there... If Hillary gets elected, she wants to take those obscene profits and use them to develope alternative energy sources.
YEAH HIL!!!!

That is an incredibly scary thought. What right does the Giverment have to that money? Talk about a negative incentive to be successful!

[N9XR]

What I want to know is why the AAArabs need so much money, and what do they do with it? (Greed is an acceptable answer).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo
http://www.waynebesen.com/uploaded_images/bush-mullah-737157.gif

I think the main reason is for personal grooming costs.

[K0RGR]

I posted a link elsewhere about this earlier.

In a nutshell, the oil companies have reduced the production of gasoline to compensate for the reduction in demand, keeping the prices high.

The oil companies have systematically eliminated their competition in the refining business by buying up independent refineries and shutting them down.

They've doubled the capacity of their own refineries to make up for it, but they also control how and when those refineries operate. They have gained monopoly power over the production of fuels.

In February, the Justice Department announced that they would (finally!) be monitoring the operation of these refineries due to the suspicious pattern of refinery shutdowns the last few years. So, this year, they're just openly shutting them down!

Drilling for more oil, as XR and the oil-besotted right wing demand, will not do much for us. We don't have any refineries to handle the oil from ANWR - instead, that oil would be sold to the Chinese, most likely.

The demand for fuel is "inelastic", which means that we suckers will buy a lot of it, no matter the price. A monopolist can maximize his profits with an "inelastic" product by maximizing his price. That is done by adjusting the price upward until demand falls substantially. How does $10 a gallon grab you?

Now, consider the effects of a big tax on gasoline, and taxes on gas company profits. Does it drive demand up or down? If demand goes down, what does the monopolist do?

[N5NPO]

That is an incredibly scary thought. What right does the Giverment have to that money? Talk about a negative incentive to be successful!

It would be for the common good, man. Get real! I am sick and tired of all those fat cat rich oil executive boosh buddies getting rich at the expense of the workers. Something must be done and taking those obscene profits from the rich oil companies would be a good start. Look at all the hungry children we could feed. All the houses that wouldn't have to be forclosed on and better yet, research funding for alternative energy sources and maybe even put some of those earth unfriendly oil companies out of bussiness for good.
Go Hillary 08!

[nz4cw]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

I'd vote for any candidate, even the FM, who would push that question.

Of course, I'm pretty safe there...nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.

In terms of gross margin, oil company profits are not out of line, in fact less as a percentage than some of the most notable companies... sorry.:o

[KB9BVN]

It would be for the common good, man. Get real! I am sick and tired of all those fat cat rich oil executive boosh buddies getting rich at the expense of the workers. Something must be done and taking those obscene profits from the rich oil companies would be a good start. Look at all the hungry children we could feed. All the houses that wouldn't have to be forclosed on and better yet, research funding for alternative energy sources and maybe even put some of those earth unfriendly oil companies out of bussiness for good.
Go Hillary 08!

Explain the connection to the mortgage foreclosure problem.

[N5NPO]

Explain the connection to the mortgage foreclosure problem.

The connection? Get real man! Them fat cat rich oil execs should give up some of the loot man. Spread the wealth. Hillary is gonna take some of that money and give it to research, but since she is such a warm compassionate caring person, she will probably help the working class by paying off the mortgages of those who have not been lucky enough to win life's lottery.
You a NEO-CON or sumthin?

[KB9BVN]

The connection? Get real man! Them fat cat rich oil execs should give up some of the loot man. Spread the wealth. Hillary is gonna take some of that money and give it to research, but since she is such a warm compassionate caring person, she will probably help the working class by paying off the mortgages of those who have not been lucky enough to win life's lottery.
You a NEO-CON or sumthin?

I get it now.

[N2RJ]

What I want to know is why the AAArabs need so much money, and what do they do with it? (Greed is an acceptable answer).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo

Because they are people too, who want to live a prosperous life, just like Americans with their McMansions and SUVs.

Now tell me why that isn't fair.

[N2RJ]

Explain the connection to the mortgage foreclosure problem.

Higher winter heating bills, thanks to the increased price of heating oil and other fuel is partially responsible for some homeowners falling behind in paying their bills. It's not like homeowners budgeted for heating oil to go up so much.

Even I've had to budget a bit more carefully to pay my heating costs last winter. Propane went up from a little over $2/gallon to almost $4/gallon. That's double the price.

My wife and I together make decent coin, so our bills are covered, but we've had to make a few changes to keep the budget balanced.

[n2ize]

It would be for the common good, man. Get real! I am sick and tired of all those fat cat rich oil executive boosh buddies getting rich at the expense of the workers. Something must be done and taking those obscene profits from the rich oil companies would be a good start. Look at all the hungry children we could feed. All the houses that wouldn't have to be forclosed on and better yet, research funding for alternative energy sources and maybe even put some of those earth unfriendly oil companies out of bussiness for good.
Go Hillary 08!

I'm with ya man. I want those oil prices to go higher. I think gas should be $10.00 or $20.00 per gallon. I want to see people starving in the gutters en mass while a handful of rich guys get richer. I think we need to lower wages and get everyone working for free. Nothing pleases me more than to see Poor, uneducated Americans with no jobs starving and living in the streets, losing their homes, dying from illnesses with no health care while a select few live like kings. Poverty and high gas prices is beautiful.

[N2RJ]

Nothing pleases me more than to see Poor, uneducated Americans with no jobs starving and living in the streets, losing their homes, dying from illnesses with no health care while a select few live like kings. Poverty and high gas prices is beautiful.

Coming from you this does not sound like sarcasm.

[KB9BVN]

Higher winter heating bills, thanks to the increased price of heating oil and other fuel is partially responsible for some homeowners falling behind in paying their bills. It's not like homeowners budgeted for heating oil to go up so much.

Even I've had to budget a bit more carefully to pay my heating costs last winter. Propane went up from a little over $2/gallon to almost $4/gallon. That's double the price.

My wife and I together make decent coin, so our bills are covered, but we've had to make a few changes to keep the budget balanced.

My natural gas and electric bills are the same every month, my phone is the same every month, my mortgage is the same every month, my water bill...now that's a different story....I use budget billing whenever possible. It makes keeping the household budget in line a whole lot easier. If you heat with propane though, I guess there isn't much you can about that though.

I drive 200 miles a day to and from my job. The gas prices have certainly cut into my family budget, but we are still buying food and going to the ocean for vacation this summer.

[NL7W]

We can start by calculating one worthless number: At $119/bbl, and about 42 gallons/bbl, the current price of gasoline, at perfect conversion, would be $2.83 per gallon, before profit, processing, and transportation cost.

This number is worthless for a couple of reasons:

a. Petroleum is a mixture of many compounds, only one fraction is used directly for gasoline, the next heavier fraction makes diesel, home heating oil, and is cracked to make more gasoline, and the heavier stuff becomes #6 oil and stuff used to pave roads. The actual cost of a gallon of gas thus depends to a large part on where the oil came from.

b. The big oil companies, i.e. Exxon/Mobil, Shell, BP, etc. do not buy oil at the prices you see in the paper. Those are for the spot market, which means relatively small quantities someone needs to buy in a hurry to make up anticipated shortfalls. They are poor indicators of global oil costs because they are not global prices; oil is sensitive to transport cost and the odds are the West Texas Intermediate Crude isn't leaving the US. The Brent North Sea crude is being consumed in Europe and perhaps the US but it doesn't go much further. The big companies strike deals with countries, not brokers. A common deal is for the major oil companies to develop and exploit the field, keeping the money from the sale of the oil, minus a cut for the host government. This is changing as countries take over a larger role in developing and exploiting their oil, but for now it's a good approximation. The upshot is that the spot market for crude is only a small part of crude oil costs for a major oil company.

So why such high revenues? Because that's what the market will bear. If Exxon/Mobil sees a smaller oil provider with higher costs raising his prices, they do too, and reap the extra earnings. They take those extra earnings and either pay dividends, hoard cash, or use the funds to develop new sources of oil, which is increasingly hard to do with increased competition from China and the increased role of host governments. Those costs not only reduce the reported profit, but can also receive beneficial tax treatment.

I firmly believe that the rise in oil prices is due to multiple factors, but that the only one Americans can really control is demand, and to first order that means driving less, starting now, period. Buyers will only break the habit of paying more and more for crude if they get burned doing that by having to sit on unsold inventory.

Wonderful post. Thank you.

Yes, it's all about supply and demand. If we reduce demand nationwide, supplies will climb and prices will fall -- to a point. The world's demand for crude has risen considerably these last years, exacerbating the current situation.

If we don't like it and want to protest -- drive less.

By the way, here is the breakdown on a 42-gal barrel of oil:

Product and gallons per barrel:

gasoline 19.5

distillate fuel oil 9.2
(Includes both home heating oil and diesel fuel)

kerosene-type jet fuel 4.1

residual fuel oil 2.3
(Heavy oils used as fuels in industry, marine transportation and for electric power generation)

liquefied refinery gasses 1.9

still gas 1.9

coke 1.8

asphalt and road oil 1.3

petrochemical feedstocks 1.2

lubricants 0.5

kerosene 0.2

other 0.3

*** Figures are based on 1995 average yields for U.S. refineries. One barrel contains 42 gallons of crude oil. The total volume of products made is 2.2 gallons greater than the original 42 gallons of crude oil. This represents "processing gain."

[N5NPO]

I'm with ya man. I want those oil prices to go higher. I think gas should be $10.00 or $20.00 per gallon. I want to see people starving in the gutters en mass while a handful of rich guys get richer. I think we need to lower wages and get everyone working for free. Nothing pleases me more than to see Poor, uneducated Americans with no jobs starving and living in the streets, losing their homes, dying from illnesses with no health care while a select few live like kings. Poverty and high gas prices is beautiful.

You are one sick dude. Hillary is gonna put a stop to dat deal. She is gonna take them profits from them fat cats and help out the little guy by developing alternative fuels so we won't need them fat cat oil execs anymore. We won't need gas any more. Can you imagine it? No more green house gas emmisions from them fat cats driving them big SUV's. As for American Workers working for free, get real! Hillary will raise the minimum wage to a level where the workers will have what they deserve. It is about time the little guy get theirs. Everyone who wants to work will have the opportunity. Inequallity and unfairness will come to an end. There will be no need for gas and there will be no poverty. Healthcare will be free for everyone who wants it, even if they are just visiting here. Homelessness will be a distant memory.
Hillary 08!!!

[N4VGB]

Hillary 08!!!


Wait a minute, those are Obama's promises! :eek:

I don't know how anybody could vote for that old fool McCain, he's not promising anything free! :rolleyes:

[n0ov]

Piss on Gore and this BS about the environment.

Time to do away with all the custom fuel and pollution requirements to bring prices at least partly back into reality.

Heck, environment is not going to suffer at least in my lifetime.

Besides those really concerned with the environment will still buy hybrids.....

[N4VGB]

Piss on Gore and this BS about the environment.
Time to do away with all the custom fuel and pollution requirements to bring prices at least partly back into reality.



Come on you neocon! There's only about $1 added per gallon to gas for additives that kill it's inherent power production capabilities and ruins mileage. Small price to pay to save the melting carbon dioxide polar cap of Mars. :)

[n0ov]

Neo what? I'm not a racist! (humor - just go with it, don't try to explain it)


Want to save power? Run your hamshack on Solar and ban them 1.5k foot warmers..... HAAAAA

[N2RJ]

My natural gas and electric bills are the same every month,

That's quite different from heating oil or propane.

Electric, at least here in NJ, comes from a variety of sources so for the most part, yes it is the same.

Natural gas doesn't seem to be affected all that much by oil prices as well. It may have gone up some, but natural gas is still cheap.

Heating oil and propane, since they are byproducts of the refining process, and come directly from petroleum (instead of just happening to be there in the ground) are affected very much by the price of oil. When we bought the house, we locked in propane at $2.61/gallon. Each month during winter we get about 200-250 gallons of it delivered, because that much is used for winter heating, hot water and cooking. That's approximately $650/month. Last month it went up to almost $4/gallon. So that's a jump of almost $400/month additional to heat your home.

But as you mentioned, electric is cheap, so I'm considering a heat pump (ground source) to heat and cool. But that doesn't come free. I have to buy it and get it installed and it will be a few years before I recoup my investment.

my phone is the same every month, my mortgage is the same every month, my water bill...now that's a different story....I use budget billing whenever possible. It makes keeping the household budget in line a whole lot easier. If you heat with propane though, I guess there isn't much you can about that though.

We don't have natural gas lines in this area. It's either heating oil, propane or electric.

I drive 200 miles a day to and from my job. The gas prices have certainly cut into my family budget, but we are still buying food and going to the ocean for vacation this summer.

Combined my wife and I do pretty good, a little over 200k/year so we're not really hurting all that much. But it has meant some changes, and as the dollar goes further and further down, and oil just gets higher and higher, our buying power is going to be considerably reduced.

And I can definitely see some homeowners, even those who carefully budgeted their expenses, losing their homes because of the higher heating bills. Not everyone makes as much money as we do, and frankly in NJ there aren't any really cheap houses like in new whiteland, Indiana. Ours was almost $500k.

[N4VGB]

We don't have natural gas lines in this area. It's either heating oil, propane or electric.

Combined my wife and I do pretty good, a little over 200k/year so we're not really hurting all that much. But it has meant some changes, and as the dollar goes further and further down, and oil just gets higher and higher, our buying power is going to be considerably reduced.

And I can definitely see some homeowners, even those who carefully budgeted their expenses, losing their homes because of the higher heating bills. Not everyone makes as much money as we do, and frankly in NJ there aren't any really cheap houses like in new whiteland, Indiana. Ours was almost $500k.


Wah, wah, wah. What a Democrat. $200k+ yearly and still wah, wah, wah. :p

Maybe Obama or Hillary will give you a heat pump on welfare. :D

Ever hear of LPG, that's natural gas in liquified form. :eek:

[w2amr]

I'm with ya man. I want those oil prices to go higher. I think gas should be $10.00 or $20.00 per gallon. I want to see people starving in the gutters en mass while a handful of rich guys get richer. I think we need to lower wages and get everyone working for free. Nothing pleases me more than to see Poor, uneducated Americans with no jobs starving and living in the streets, losing their homes, dying from illnesses with no health care while a select few live like kings. Poverty and high gas prices is beautiful.

And in 20 years when we see images on TV of people digging through dumpsters behind fast food joints for something to eat, Cons will be saying Screw em', let them go to college and then get good paying jobs.

[W8EJO]

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. Both are simply operating in the existing marketplace just as we all do every day as we either produce or consume various products.

The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST.

Imagine any other market where as demand soared the supply was kept stagnant. Take PC’s. We all own one or more & no one could argue that demand has not soared over the last 20 years. But unlike the energy industry the supply of PC’s has kept up to demand leading to lower market prices. It’s not that Intel stockholders are less greedy than Exxon stockholders. It’s that government has not artificially limited production of chips.

Our nation’s energy policies, bullied as they’ve been by enviro-radicals, are rapidly leading our nation and our way of life to an early and untimely death. If continued, these policies will mean a dark hard future for our children and grandchildren.

I love clean water & fresh air. I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t. In that sense we are all environmentalists but the supply of oil & gas & electricity is being kept artificially low buy the radical environmentalists in & out of government while the demand keeps increasing. The result is painfully predictable – higher & higher prices. The prices will continue to climb until we have the guts to stand up & put a stop to the insanity & stop groveling at the feet of the Sierra Club (et al).

With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast. (For reference we’ll import about 4 billion barrels in 2008 meaning these reserves alone would add 31 years to our supply). This is just the oil. There is also 650 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in these reserves. But the radical environmentalists in and out of our government have stymied the recovery of this oil forcing soaring fuel prices and extreme economic hardship on us all.

Other envirorad policies such as no new refineries, summer boutique fuels and no new nuke plants in decades are also limiting energy supply leading to higher prices.

The continuation of these suicidal policies will lead to the death of our way of life (you can see the ends begin to fray even now) and sentence our children and grandchildren to a life of unending hardship. Right thinking Americans must call their elected officials today & bitch loudly & angrily. Tell them to stop the insanity before it’s too late.

[N2RJ]

Wah, wah, wah. What a Democrat. $200k+ yearly and still wah, wah, wah. :p

Do you have any brain cells left, or are you just trolling for fun?

First of all, I'm a registered Republican and secondly, I'm not whining. I'm merely pointing out a situation that some homeowners may face.

I take it there's an F next to "Reading comprehension" on all of your school report cards, correct?

Maybe Obama or Hillary will give you a heat pump on welfare. :D

I'm not the one in need. I can afford it all on my own thanks. What they need to give you is a brain and half a clue.

Ever hear of LPG, that's natural gas in liquified form. :eek:

LPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas) is not natural gas. It's what is commonly sold as propane, stupid.

Furthermore, natural gas generally isn't delivered to homes in compressed form for storage in tanks.

Your signature really does speak the truth - you have no interest in listening to common sense.

[KB9BVN]

And I can definitely see some homeowners, even those who carefully budgeted their expenses, losing their homes because of the higher heating bills. Not everyone makes as much money as we do, and frankly in NJ there aren't any really cheap houses like in new whiteland, Indiana. Ours was almost $500k.

Housing around here runs from about $120K to about a million bucks, there are about two dozen homes within two miles of my front door that are in the 1.5 to 3 million dollar range. I know of two of them that are sitting empty but they have a great view of the golf course.

Most of the new additions have halted construction almost a year ago because the economy here is very very bad. As soon as I am finished with school we are out of here. Indiana is a wasteland of unemployment and low paying jobs. That's why I have to drive 100 miles one way to my job...that and my XYL won't move yet.

We're within 20 months of paying the house off and we have no other debts....so we get by on a lot less than most people. I think bad credit decisions will have more to do with the foreclosures than high gasoline prices. Lifestyle changes always suck.

[KG4JYD]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?Because oil is a commodity and the product that the oil companies sell just happens to now be worth more.

nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.It isn't the job of the federal government to regulate the price of oil:rolleyes:

[KD6NIG]

Man I wish my electric rates and natural gas rates stayed the same all the time. Electric goes up in the summer when you need it for A/C, gas goes up in the winter when you need it for heat.

"Budgeting" for it means using as little as possible, and hoping that when the next bill comes the price per kWh or therm didn't jump $2 or so.

We did a lot of 'wearing sweaters and leaving the heater off' this last year too because it took a pretty good therm jump suddenly.

[KD0DKI]

When the caldron at Yellowstone fills and explodes it wont matter. The gas and dust released will put the planet in an ice/stone age for 10,000 years.

Last on the list in this link.

http://volcano.wr.usgs.gov/vhpstatus.php

[N2RJ]

Housing around here runs from about $120K to about a million bucks, there are about two dozen homes within two miles of my front door that are in the 1.5 to 3 million dollar range. I know of two of them that are sitting empty but they have a great view of the golf course.

A $120k house there is a $400k house here.

Real estate is primarily about location.

We're within 20 months of paying the house off and we have no other debts....so we get by on a lot less than most people. I think bad credit decisions will have more to do with the foreclosures than high gasoline prices. Lifestyle changes always suck.

I think you're arrogant and blind to reality, and this just reinforces that.

You are within 20 months of paying off your house, and frankly, the only way you do that these days is have a huge downpayment and a very small mortgage, or simply have your house from a long time ago. I suspect your case is the latter since mortgages are usually 15 to 30 years, not 20 months.

Today's housing market is quite different than it was years ago when home ownership with plenty of money left over was a reality for pretty much everyone, not just those who make a lot of money.

[N4VGB]

Wah, wah, wah, real estate is more expensive where I live, wah, wah, wah. :p

And here I recently replaced my central heat/ac unit on my own coins and didn't even think to wah, wah, wah on here about it. Just thought it was a normal part of home ownership!? How silly of me. :rolleyes:

I've really got to get busy and make myself up a wah, wah, wah list. :)

[KV1M]

Wah, wah, wah, real estate is more expensive where I live, wah, wah, wah. :p

And here I recently replaced my central heat/ac unit on my own coins and didn't even think to wah, wah, wah on here about it. Just thought it was a normal part of home ownership!? How silly of me. :rolleyes:

I've really got to get busy and make myself up a wah, wah, wah list. :)

Compassionate conservatives in action I see.

[KB9BVN]

I think you're arrogant and blind to reality, and this just reinforces that.

You are within 20 months of paying off your house, and frankly, the only way you do that these days is have a huge downpayment and a very small mortgage, or simply have your house from a long time ago. I suspect your case is the latter since mortgages are usually 15 to 30 years, not 20 months.

Today's housing market is quite different than it was years ago when home ownership with plenty of money left over was a reality for pretty much everyone, not just those who make a lot of money.

I'm arrogant because my home is almost paid off? I detect a jealous rage there Mr. Moneybags. I bought this house about 10 years ago, with a 15 yr fixed rate mortgage. We have worked hard to get it this close to being paid off. I bought it from the FHA, it was a repo, I bought it for about 78% of the appraisal so I don't pay PMI....PMI is for suckers. We did a little work to it, it was in pretty good shape actually and only 3 years old. It's no McMansion but it suits us fine. I guess it'd go for about $130K give or take.

If you don't over buy, you don't overspend. Always try to pay cash. We're pretty disappointed that we didn't get this paid off in 10 years...that was the original goal but a couple years of employment problems slowed us down.

If you want to be a slave to your mortgage company, go right ahead. It's a free country.

The only way you pay off your debts quickly is with cash and lots of hard work. If you don't get in debt to begin with, and you do this by living BELOW your means, life is a lot smoother. External financial disasters don't seem to bother me as much.

You'll love this....I have a 2004 SUV and a 2006 Midsize car....both are totally paid for. Know how I did it? We used our savings. I guess that makes me almost unbearable.

[N2RJ]

I'm arrogant because my home is almost paid off? I detect a jealous rage there Mr. Moneybags. I bought this house about 10 years ago, with a 15 yr fixed rate mortgage. We have worked hard to get it this close to being paid off. I bought it from the FHA, it was a repo, I bought it for about 78% of the appraisal so I don't pay PMI....PMI is for suckers. We did a little work to it, it was in pretty good shape actually and only 3 years old. It's no McMansion but it suits us fine. I guess it'd go for about $130K give or take.

If you don't over buy, you don't overspend. Always try to pay cash. We're pretty disappointed that we didn't get this paid off in 10 years...that was the original goal but a couple years of employment problems slowed us down.

If you want to be a slave to your mortgage company, go right ahead. It's a free country.

The only way you pay off your debts quickly is with cash and lots of hard work. If you don't get in debt to begin with, and you do this by living BELOW your means, life is a lot smoother. External financial disasters don't seem to bother me as much.

You'll love this....I have a 2004 SUV and a 2006 Midsize car....both are totally paid for. Know how I did it? We used our savings. I guess that makes me almost unbearable.

Wrong. You did all of that because you live in flyover territory.

You can't do that out here, or in California, or even in some places in Texas or Florida now, and don't worry, it's coming even to your little slice of flyover land.

10 years ago is also radically different from today.

20% down on a house here in 2008 would be approximately $80,000 for a small house, and around $150,000 for a larger one. Not an extravagant McMansion, but an I'm sure that you, mr "I used my savings" couldn't save that amount over there.

I promise you that if I had to buy a house where you live, I could have bought it cash.

[N2RJ]

Wah, wah, wah, real estate is more expensive where I live, wah, wah, wah. :p

And here I recently replaced my central heat/ac unit on my own coins and didn't even think to wah, wah, wah on here about it. Just thought it was a normal part of home ownership!? How silly of me. :rolleyes:

I've really got to get busy and make myself up a wah, wah, wah list. :)

I'm thinking that the reason that homes are cheaper down there is because the water down there makes people stupid.

[N4VGB]

I'm thinking that the reason that homes are cheaper down there is because the water down there makes people stupid.

So go home, belly ache there. You could wah, wah, wah from any country, you didn't have to come here for that? :p:p:p

[KB9BVN]

Wrong. You did all of that because you live in flyover territory.

You can't do that out here, or in California, or even in some places in Texas or Florida now, and don't worry, it's coming even to your little slice of flyover land.

10 years ago is also radically different from today.

20% down on a house here in 2008 would be approximately $80,000 for a small house, and around $150,000 for a larger one. Not an extravagant McMansion, but an I'm sure that you, mr "I used my savings" couldn't save that amount over there.

I promise you that if I had to buy a house where you live, I could have bought it cash.


Hahhaha...dream on.

Talk is cheap....REALLY cheap around here. If you like where you live, stay there. I'll do the same.

[w2amr]

I'm thinking that the reason that homes are cheaper down there is because the water down there makes people stupid.
LMAO. :D:D

[w2amr]

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. Both are simply operating in the existing marketplace just as we all do every day as we either produce or consume various products.

The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST.

Imagine any other market where as demand soared the supply was kept stagnant. Take PC’s. We all own one or more & no one could argue that demand has not soared over the last 20 years. But unlike the energy industry the supply of PC’s has kept up to demand leading to lower market prices. It’s not that Intel stockholders are less greedy than Exxon stockholders. It’s that government has not artificially limited production of chips.

Our nation’s energy policies, bullied as they’ve been by enviro-radicals, are rapidly leading our nation and our way of life to an early and untimely death. If continued, these policies will mean a dark hard future for our children and grandchildren.

I love clean water & fresh air. I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t. In that sense we are all environmentalists but the supply of oil & gas & electricity is being kept artificially low buy the radical environmentalists in & out of government while the demand keeps increasing. The result is painfully predictable – higher & higher prices. The prices will continue to climb until we have the guts to stand up & put a stop to the insanity & stop groveling at the feet of the Sierra Club (et al).

With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast. (For reference we’ll import about 4 billion barrels in 2008 meaning these reserves alone would add 31 years to our supply). This is just the oil. There is also 650 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in these reserves. But the radical environmentalists in and out of our government have stymied the recovery of this oil forcing soaring fuel prices and extreme economic hardship on us all.

Other envirorad policies such as no new refineries, summer boutique fuels and no new nuke plants in decades are also limiting energy supply leading to higher prices.

The continuation of these suicidal policies will lead to the death of our way of life (you can see the ends begin to fray even now) and sentence our children and grandchildren to a life of unending hardship. Right thinking Americans must call their elected officials today & bitch loudly & angrily. Tell them to stop the insanity before it’s too late.
And what oil company do you own stock in?

[w2amr]

So go home, belly ache there. You could wah, wah, wah from any country, you didn't have to come here for that? :p:p:p
Goober, you seem to have the intellect of an 8 year old. Maybe you would feel more at home in the youth forum.

[N4VGB]

Goober, you seem to have the intellect of an 8 year old. Maybe you would feel more at home in the youth forum.

I might indeed, since the Political Junkie forum is full of whiners. :p:p:p

[N2RJ]

I might indeed, since the Political Junkie forum is full of whiners. :p:p:p

No, just you.

[W8EJO]

And what oil company do you own stock in?

You have no rebuttal so you change the subject. Sort of an intellectual run & hide. Very cute.

[w2amr]

You have no rebuttal so you change the subject. Sort of an intellectual run & hide. Very cute.
I resent that. I am not an intellectual. :)

"With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast."

And the oil companies would still be charging the same prices for it.

Would you care to explain how the oil companies record profits and the high pump prices are NOT related?

[W8EJO]

"With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast."
And the oil companies would still be charging the same prices for it.
Would you care to explain how the oil companies record profits and the high pump prices are NOT related?

There would be more oil in the market which would loosen supply considerably. Just as when there is a bumper crop of corn for example. More supply = greater availability = lower price. It's the reason we are always browbeating the Saudis into increasing their production.

At over $115/barrel & with 115 billion barrels off the coast of Florida, oil must look like liquid gold to potential drillers & investors. The question you have to ask yourself is: Why aren't they going after it in a big way? The answer is: government will not allow them. See Governor Crist's "Let Them Eat Cake" equivalent:

http://www.reuters.com/article/GlobalEnvironment07/idUSN0242499420071002

[AB8RU]

Between the dollar in the world market and political stuff like Chavez who is a total communist party himself here is some stuff..

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35766.htm

[N4VGB]

I resent that. I am not an intellectual. :)

"With today’s modern, clean drilling techniques we could successfully & cleanly recover the 10.5 billion barrels in ANWAR and the 115 billion barrels off the Florida coast."

And the oil companies would still be charging the same prices for it.

Would you care to explain how the oil companies record profits and the high pump prices are NOT related?

Oil must be a lousy business normally, since there stock numbers don't reflect that supposed "record profits"? AT&T is a better stock to own than any oil company stock.

Domestic crude is much more expensive than imported crude, the price of gas would go up if we were independent of imported crude oil. :(

[W8EJO]

Something must be done and taking those obscene profits from the rich oil companies would be a good start. Look at all the hungry children we could feed. All the houses that wouldn't have to be forclosed on Go Hillary 08!


From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx. "The phrase summarizes the idea that, under a communist system, every person shall produce to the best of one's ability in accordance with one's talent, and each person shall receive the fruits of this production in accordance with one's need, irrespective of what one has produced." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_accord ing_to_his_need

The only problem with this philosophy is that it robs everyone in the society of their incentive to produce resulting in a slothful, unproductive society where people must be forced at gunpoint to comply or die.

[n4cd]

You got a point there... If Hillary gets elected, she wants to take those obscene profits and use them to develope alternative energy sources.
YEAH HIL!!!!

Right....so you tax the profits of the oil companies more (They already pay 238 billion in taxes!...and 41%..)

So they have less incentive to invest for the future...and less incentive to proudce...meaning prices will rise big time...

And of course, you know who pays the tax. Tax them 50c a gallon, and they'lll raise the price $1/gallon so they have the money to pay the tax. Remember, they are at 41% tax rate now. If you raise it to 50%, they'll raise the price of oil 100% to have the money to pay the tax. Silly idea.

ANd if there was 'profit' in alternative fuels, you'd have 50 companies as big as MSFT making alternative fuels. You don't. It isn't profitable and the ethanol refineries are going bust left and right. Oh, of course, the price of corn goes up as you demand more and more of it.....from limited farm land...

You of course did not the rise in food prices? SO you pay twice as much for fuel from corn? And pay twice as much for food? Sounds like Hillary logic to me..at the same time gas goes up by dollars a gallon due to higher taxes and less produced!

[n4cd]

What I want to know is why the AAArabs need so much money, and what do they do with it? (Greed is an acceptable answer).

TOM K8ERV Montrose Colo


They have humongeous social programs ...subsidize food, fuel, cost of schools, cost of health care...everything is free...plus they have economies with little industry, and millons employed 'in the public sector' not doing much.

Gas is 40c/gal in Saudi and 15c/gal in Venezuela. Free health care, free schooling to PhD level in Saudi and Kuwait...bonus for marriage...bonus for first house...and of course, 10,000 princes and princesses in the royal family bought off for the sake of stability.

Plus, now they are investing in sovereign wealth funds, buying up assets around the world.

The US did the same for 8 decades. Now the tables are turned. We don't like it.

We are a country that has borrowed itself to the hilt....devalued the dollar....caused a massive worldwide credit crunch......and use 25% of the world's oil for 5% of the people.....

As some infamous person has said 'the chickens have come home to roost'...

[n4cd]

A $120k house there is a $400k house here.

Real estate is primarily about location.



I think you're arrogant and blind to reality, and this just reinforces that.

You are within 20 months of paying off your house, and frankly, the only way you do that these days is have a huge downpayment and a very small mortgage, or simply have your house from a long time ago. I suspect your case is the latter since mortgages are usually 15 to 30 years, not 20 months.

Today's housing market is quite different than it was years ago when home ownership with plenty of money left over was a reality for pretty much everyone, not just those who make a lot of money.

Almost half of all people own their houses outright - no mortgage.

Many people actually did put 20% down or more. I put 50% on my second house when I moved. Paid it off in 7 years. It was a priority to pay it off. You just buy less toys. It is in the Dallas suburbs.

One of the reasons for the buble in house prices was zero down, interest only loans with adjustable rates and 'teaser loans'. Many got teased into things, and of course, with zero down, interest only, house prices just took off to astronomical levels. House prices are directly tied to interest rates. When interest rates drop, people can 'afford' lots of house so prices naturally rise! ......when interest rates go up (and people have to put more down like now) real estate plummets. Happens time and time again.

Where were you in the housing drops of 1970s? In Denver in the 80s? In Houston in the 90s? Prices dropped 33% in less than six months.

Get over it...cheap loans are toast..interest only loans are toast...nothing down is toast.....so house prices MUST come down if they are to sell.

Oh, I forget to mention 'no doc' loans (no need to establish you actually have or make any money).

Lots of people got greedy..just like they got greedy in the dot.com boom. That took a lot of other folks with them. This will too......

I'm sorry, but too many people maxed out house purchase, credit card pruchases, just had to have a new car or two of 'the highest affordable style'....

NOw it is time for things to return to 'the normal curve'..with the associated consequences.

[n4cd]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx. "The phrase summarizes the idea that, under a communist system, every person shall produce to the best of one's ability in accordance with one's talent, and each person shall receive the fruits of this production in accordance with one's need, irrespective of what one has produced." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_accord ing_to_his_need

The only problem with this philosophy is that it robs everyone in the society of their incentive to produce resulting in a slothful, unproductive society where people must be forced at gunpoint to comply or die.

AS they found out in the soviet union - the result was 'We pretend to work for the pay they pretend to give us'...everyone at the lowest common denominator......poor...

They are doing that in Cuba now....can't even afford bandages in hospitals.....and you are lucky to have a black and white TV to watch the 1 or 2 TV stations with propaganda programming...... and you get to serve 6-8 weeks on a farm each year to 'help out'...manadatory....oh, but they have 'free healthcare'....just hardly any of it..other than for scrapes and cuts....

[N2RJ]

Almost half of all people own their houses outright - no mortgage.

Many people actually did put 20% down or more. I put 50% on my second house when I moved. Paid it off in 7 years. It was a priority to pay it off. You just buy less toys. It is in the Dallas suburbs.

Easy for you to say when a decent house costs less that $200k where you live.

In NYC/Queens/Brooklyn etc, you'd be lucky if you can find a horror movie set for less than $500,000.

In New Jersey, four bedroom houses on quarter acre are going for almost a million dollars.

Despite what has been happening in the rest of the country, the demand here is still high. It would take something drastic (nuclear war destroying NYC) to reduce the demand to the point where housing is actually affordable to the average working class person.

You simply don't understand, because you don't live in this market to experience it first hand. You're one of those armchair quarterbacks from 4 or 5 land who feels that because the situation is one way down there, it's the same everywhere.

One of the reasons for the buble in house prices was zero down, interest only loans with adjustable rates and 'teaser loans'. Many got teased into things, and of course, with zero down, interest only, house prices just took off to astronomical levels. House prices are directly tied to interest rates. When interest rates drop, people can 'afford' lots of house so prices naturally rise! ......when interest rates go up (and people have to put more down like now) real estate plummets. Happens time and time again.

Partially correct, but the bigger driving factor here is demand.

FYI, I had no problems getting a fixed 30 year loan. None at all.

Where were you in the housing drops of 1970s? In Denver in the 80s? In Houston in the 90s? Prices dropped 33% in less than six months.

Denver and Houston are not New Jersey and New York.

Get over it...cheap loans are toast..interest only loans are toast...nothing down is toast.....so house prices MUST come down if they are to sell.

Oh, I forget to mention 'no doc' loans (no need to establish you actually have or make any money).

Lots of people got greedy..just like they got greedy in the dot.com boom. That took a lot of other folks with them. This will too......

I'm sorry, but too many people maxed out house purchase, credit card pruchases, just had to have a new car or two of 'the highest affordable style'....

NOw it is time for things to return to 'the normal curve'..with the associated consequences.

Yeah whatever. You're ignorant and nothing is going to cure that.

I agree prices have to come down, but I don't see that happening in your lifetime, or even mine...

The problem, simply put is that demand outstrips supply by a great margin. You won't understand that because no one really wants to live down where you live, or in many other parts of the country. They want to come here, where they can have opportunity and get paid lots of money.

[n2ize]

Easy for you to say when a decent house costs less that $200k where you live.

In NYC/Queens/Brooklyn etc, you'd be lucky if you can find a horror movie set for less than $500,000.

In New Jersey, four bedroom houses on quarter acre are going for almost a million dollars.

Despite what has been happening in the rest of the country, the demand here is still high. It would take something drastic (nuclear war destroying NYC) to reduce the demand to the point where housing is actually affordable to the average working class person.

You simply don't understand, because you don't live in this market to experience it first hand. You're one of those armchair quarterbacks from 4 or 5 land who feels that because the situation is one way down there, it's the same everywhere.



Partially correct, but the bigger driving factor here is demand.

FYI, I had no problems getting a fixed 30 year loan. None at all.



Denver and Houston are not New Jersey and New York.



Yeah whatever. You're ignorant and nothing is going to cure that.

I agree prices have to come down, but I don't see that happening in your lifetime, or even mine...

The problem, simply put is that demand outstrips supply by a great margin. You won't understand that because no one really wants to live down where you live, or in many other parts of the country. They want to come here, where they can have opportunity and get paid lots of money.

Actually you may see a small slump in the housing market, even here in the NYC area and the outlying burbs. This will not be so much reflected in immediate demand or direct housing costs as much as slowed gentrification and development.

But I do agree with you on demand. It is still a driving force in these markets. There are some "affordable" and even subsidized housing to be found in NYC (particularly in parts of the outlying boroughs such as my favorite place, The Bronx... But the old days of buying a wreck in Harlem cheap, or buying an old fix-me-up brownstone in Manhattan are long gone. Sad but true.The days of finding a cheap renter in the Lower east Side are gone save for a few small tidbits here and there. And if you live in the burbs you're not going to sell maintain your price and your house as quickly as you could 10 years ago.

I think we'll be seeing a slowdown here in NYC, to an extent we are already. But a complete falklback to the way it once was ? Doubtful anytime soon.

Oh, as far as nobody wanting to live in the southern states and western states, not true. Many people are finding good opportuinities outside of the NYC area and are doing quite well.They don;t need the extra big money NYC offers because they cost of living is less there. I know several people who have moved from NYC to 4 and 5 land and are doing quite well. They don;t get paid as much as I but their cost of living is less than mine so they make out well. Plus they have good stability and their employers are not faces with the high costs of doing business in NYC. And in some cases it's easier to get jobs as new and old jobseekers are not facing the extreme fierce competitive market they are up against here. This is particularly true for older persons looking for a new job or, older persons who may have been out of work for an extended time frame. They often have better luck job hunting in 4 or 5 land than here in NYC.

This is not to say NYC is bad, heck I lived here all my life and I love it here. But we are not the only place on the globe anymore and not all our advantages are advantages for everyone.

[N4VGB]

They want to come here, where they can have opportunity and get paid lots of money.



Yeah and have most of it taken away from them!!!! Then they can make posts on here bragging about where they live one minute and whining about it the next!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! :rolleyes:

Go on back to Trinidad. :cool:

[W4HAY]

...how come oil company profits are so obscene?
You're being suckered in by political rhetoric. Actually, oil company profits (http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=294534501962503)are in line with, and often less than, the overall industrial average.

[k8wpj]

You're one of those armchair quarterbacks from 4 or 5 land who feels that because the situation is one way down there, it's the same everywhere.

That attitude seems to be quite common in the southeast actually... I've run into that living in NC/SC as well...

[N4VGB]

You simply don't understand, because you don't live in this market to experience it first hand. You're one of those armchair quarterbacks from 4 or 5 land who feels that because the situation is one way down there, it's the same everywhere.

Yeah whatever. You're ignorant and nothing is going to cure that.

The problem, simply put is that demand outstrips supply by a great margin. You won't understand that because no one really wants to live down where you live, or in many other parts of the country. They want to come here, where they can have opportunity and get paid lots of money.


Where would we be without the imported wisdom of Trinidad! LOL! Somebody is ignorant all right and doesn't know that Plano, TX is part of the Dallas-Ft. Worth metropolitan area, 4th largest in the U.S.! Somebody wants to live down there??? :p

[K3XR]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

I'd vote for any candidate, even the FM, who would push that question.

Of course, I'm pretty safe there...nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.

The answer about oil you don't want to hear....
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=26386

[N2RJ]

Go on back to Trinidad. :cool:

Can't do that, Jethro.

Haven't you heard? I'm not a citizen of that country anymore.

Yup, I'm stuck here, so you're just going to have to learn to tolerate me.

The good news is that it's probably not for much longer anyway, as you'll croak much sooner than I will. :)

[N2RJ]

That attitude seems to be quite common in the southeast actually... I've run into that living in NC/SC as well...

The best is when they tell us "yankees" that we're fools for paying so much for a house and generally having such a high cost of living, and tell us how good they have it down there, and anyone smart enough would simply move down there to get a lower cost of living.

Yet when the "yankees" move down there, they complain that too many "yankees" are moving down there and driving their cost of living up.

[n4cd]

Easy for you to say when a decent house costs less that $200k where you live.

In NYC/Queens/Brooklyn etc, you'd be lucky if you can find a horror movie set for less than $500,000.

In New Jersey, four bedroom houses on quarter acre are going for almost a million dollars.

You simply don't understand, because you don't live in this market to experience it first hand. You're one of those armchair quarterbacks from 4 or 5 land who feels that because the situation is one way down there, it's the same everywhere.


Denver and Houston are not New Jersey and New York.



I agree prices have to come down, but I don't see that happening in your lifetime, or even mine...

The problem, simply put is that demand outstrips supply by a great margin. You won't understand that because no one really wants to live down where you live, or in many other parts of the country. They want to come here, where they can have opportunity and get paid lots of money.

Golly, nice rant...

I grew up in NJ....in a small Cape Cod style house with two small bedrooms downstairs and an 'attic' that had one more bedroom. No 'rec room' or gigantic kitchen or other things. My parents owned it outright by the time they retired in 1977. My dad worked 44 years in NYC.

One of the reasons I did not choose to work and live in NYC area was cost. I moved to Chicago...then down to VA, and then up to Arlington VA...which is 'not cheap' either. Bought townhome ($$$) but paid it mostly off in 7 years. Had 15% interest rate loan (1983).

Yes, there are lots of smart people moving to TX from MD and NJ and CA where housing prices are a premium. YOu pay your money and make yoru choices. You choose to pay high taxes,have corrupt state and city gov'ts. I can't control that, but I can vote with my feet.

The fact is over 40% of all homes are owned outright. If you bought your house 20-30-40-50 years ago, it would be paid for. If you lived in CA before the bust, and sold out, and moved to TX, you could pay cash for a house with the profits..and many did.

The fact that you didn't, well, don't whine about it. You made the choice about where you live.

[KB9BVN]

Almost half of all people own their houses outright - no mortgage.

Many people actually did put 20% down or more. I put 50% on my second house when I moved. Paid it off in 7 years. It was a priority to pay it off. You just buy less toys. It is in the Dallas suburbs.

One of the reasons for the buble in house prices was zero down, interest only loans with adjustable rates and 'teaser loans'. Many got teased into things, and of course, with zero down, interest only, house prices just took off to astronomical levels. House prices are directly tied to interest rates. When interest rates drop, people can 'afford' lots of house so prices naturally rise! ......when interest rates go up (and people have to put more down like now) real estate plummets. Happens time and time again.

Where were you in the housing drops of 1970s? In Denver in the 80s? In Houston in the 90s? Prices dropped 33% in less than six months.

Get over it...cheap loans are toast..interest only loans are toast...nothing down is toast.....so house prices MUST come down if they are to sell.

Oh, I forget to mention 'no doc' loans (no need to establish you actually have or make any money).

Lots of people got greedy..just like they got greedy in the dot.com boom. That took a lot of other folks with them. This will too......

I'm sorry, but too many people maxed out house purchase, credit card pruchases, just had to have a new car or two of 'the highest affordable style'....

NOw it is time for things to return to 'the normal curve'..with the associated consequences.

Amen. But what about all those poor innocent people that won't survive this latest market reset...when you play with fire (interest only loans, combo loans, and buying with less than 20% down) you will get burnt.

My family is making it fine, we have no debt other than the mortgage and in about 2 years it'll be paid off. The best thing about having a paid for home, is you are pretty much guaranteed to not end up homeless.

These younger (I'm not yet 50) couples I see that have to have it all right now, are financially dooming themselves. I told my kids that every time they borrow money they are just trading future life options for slavery. It seems like no one is saving money too. I wonder how much credit has increased with the sky rocketing gasoline prices.

"The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender"
Proverbs 22:7

[N2RJ]

Golly, nice rant...

I grew up in NJ....in a small Cape Cod style house with two small bedrooms downstairs and an 'attic' that had one more bedroom. No 'rec room' or gigantic kitchen or other things. My parents owned it outright by the time they retired in 1977. My dad worked 44 years in NYC.

One of the reasons I did not choose to work and live in NYC area was cost. I moved to Chicago...then down to VA, and then up to Arlington VA...which is 'not cheap' either. Bought townhome ($$$) but paid it mostly off in 7 years. Had 15% interest rate loan (1983).

Yes, there are lots of smart people moving to TX from MD and NJ and CA where housing prices are a premium. YOu pay your money and make yoru choices. You choose to pay high taxes,have corrupt state and city gov'ts. I can't control that, but I can vote with my feet.

The fact is over 40% of all homes are owned outright. If you bought your house 20-30-40-50 years ago, it would be paid for. If you lived in CA before the bust, and sold out, and moved to TX, you could pay cash for a house with the profits..and many did.

So now you're saying that 30 years ago applies today?

The fact that you didn't, well, don't whine about it. You made the choice about where you live.

Don't assume that. I had little choice in the general area in which to live. In fact before we bought this house I was offered a move to DFW at my last job but had to turn it down. If I were single, yes I could in fact live anywhere I wanted to. But in a marriage you can't make a decision by yourself and quite possibly put your wife out of work and eliminate her eligibility for some very useful benefits.

[N4VGB]

In fact before we bought this house I was offered a move to DFW at my last job but had to turn it down.


Lucky DFW! :D

[k9kxq]

Lucky DFW! :D

So we loaded up the truck and moved to Tennessee, hills that is... :cool:

kxq

[N4VGB]

So we loaded up the truck and moved to Tennessee, hills that is... :cool:

kxq

Born here, didn't move here. Spent 8 weeks in DFW once. If I ever needed to move, DFW would be my first choice on a place to relocate. Felt like home the whole time I was there.

A local gun club extended free privileges while I was there, Texas Instruments extended free use of their employee facilities, which included an archery range.

Very nice cities with great citizens that make every effort to make visitors feel welcome. :)

N2RJ wouldn't have liked it at all. :D

[N2RJ]

Born here, didn't move here. Spent 8 weeks in DFW once. If I ever needed to move, DFW would be my first choice on a place to relocate. Felt like home the whole time I was there.

A local gun club extended free privileges while I was there, Texas Instruments extended free use of their employee facilities, which included an archery range.

Very nice cities with great citizens that make every effort to make visitors feel welcome. :)

N2RJ wouldn't have liked it at all. :D

When I traveled there on business, it seemed very much like a place I'd like to live.

[w8pm]

Housing around here runs from about $120K to about a million bucks, there are about two dozen homes within two miles of my front door that are in the 1.5 to 3 million dollar range. I know of two of them that are sitting empty but they have a great view of the golf course.

Most of the new additions have halted construction almost a year ago because the economy here is very very bad. As soon as I am finished with school we are out of here. Indiana is a wasteland of unemployment and low paying jobs. That's why I have to drive 100 miles one way to my job...that and my XYL won't move yet.

We're within 20 months of paying the house off and we have no other debts....so we get by on a lot less than most people. I think bad credit decisions will have more to do with the foreclosures than high gasoline prices. Lifestyle changes always suck.

I admire your discipline, but you must also confess that you live in an area with pretty low real estate costs. In my area (suburban Portland, OR) you couldn't get a chicken coop for $120K! The median home value is $290K with the average somewhat higher at $345K. 20% of that would be more than a year's wages for me. Wages are also a little higher here than in some areas, but not enough to cover the difference.

[ka5s]

I firmly believe that the rise in oil prices is due to multiple factors, but that the only one Americans can really control is demand, and to first order that means driving less, starting now, period. Buyers will only break the habit of paying more and more for crude if they get burned doing that by having to sit on unsold inventory.

55 really does save gas, at least in a rented Aveo; the difference between 28 and 24 mpg. But just try driving 55 in LA. Sheesh! The gas price protesters are doing 80 driving to the next demonstration.

Cortland
KA5S(/6)

[kb2vxa]

It matters little which state you live in because most of you live in a state of confusion. We owe a nearly $10 TRILLION national debt most of which to foreign banks. Where do you think your "economic stimulus" check came from?

"The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave of the lender"
Proverbs 22:7

"Who owns ya baby?"
Tellme Sloballass

[KB9BVN]

I admire your discipline, but you must also confess that you live in an area with pretty low real estate costs. In my area (suburban Portland, OR) you couldn't get a chicken coop for $120K! The median home value is $290K with the average somewhat higher at $345K. 20% of that would be more than a year's wages for me. Wages are also a little higher here than in some areas, but not enough to cover the difference.

I hear what you are saying. The rule of thumb that we always tried to stick to was no more than 25% of our bring home should be spent on housing. There are a couple, or more, schools of thought on buying real estate. I never looked at buying my home as an investment, it's something we had to have and the sooner it was paid for the better, we have a couple of rental homes that I do consider to be investments but I'd dump them in a skinny minute if I couldn't keep them rented as they are no where near being paid for.

[N2RJ]

I hear what you are saying. The rule of thumb that we always tried to stick to was no more than 25% of our bring home should be spent on housing. There are a couple, or more, schools of thought on buying real estate. I never looked at buying my home as an investment, it's something we had to have and the sooner it was paid for the better, we have a couple of rental homes that I do consider to be investments but I'd dump them in a skinny minute if I couldn't keep them rented as they are no where near being paid for.

In New Jersey to rent a decent apartment in most places it's a minimum of $1000. Same in New York City and Long Island. In fact I haven't seen any apartments for less than $1200 (without roommates) in years.

So by your formula, someone would have to make a minimum of $52,000 per year take home just to pay the rent. Buying a house? Forget it. Not going to happen for most people. College grads here start out around $50k per year before tax. NYS/NYC/NJ Income tax takes out a good bit. Then there's health insurance, which isn't cheap unless you're in a union and have your union negotiate low rates through collective bargaining.

Your formula would work great for many less populated areas, but for places near large cities, where many people are forced to live because of the lack of jobs in their particular field in other areas, it won't.

[KB9BVN]

In New Jersey to rent a decent apartment in most places it's a minimum of $1000. Same in New York City and Long Island. In fact I haven't seen any apartments for less than $1200 (without roommates) in years.

So by your formula, someone would have to make a minimum of $52,000 per year take home just to pay the rent. Buying a house? Forget it. Not going to happen for most people. College grads here start out around $50k per year before tax. NYS/NYC/NJ Income tax takes out a good bit. Then there's health insurance, which isn't cheap unless you're in a union and have your union negotiate low rates through collective bargaining.

Your formula would work great for many less populated areas, but for places near large cities, where many people are forced to live because of the lack of jobs in their particular field in other areas, it won't.

I'd move.

Life is to short to be a slave to the landlord.

[N2RJ]

I'd move.

Life is to short to be a slave to the landlord.

Move and take a pay cut, or not find a job, or put your spouse out of work. Yeah, I'm sure that would work REAL well.

The reality is that with interest deductions and property tax deductions, we still come out better living here than somewhere else, even when using more than 25% of our income to pay for housing.

[n2ize]

I'd move.

Life is to short to be a slave to the landlord.

The thing is that the high paying professional jobs are out here. Lots of people , including myself, are making salaries well over $150,000/year. A young bright eager person can still make a killing here and live the good life.

[VE2ITZ]

If the exorbitant prices of gasolene and heating oil are simply because of the price of crude, how come oil company profits are so obscene?

I'd vote for any candidate, even the FM, who would push that question.

Of course, I'm pretty safe there...nobody who aspires to the Oval Office would ever dare raise the question these days.

Just use Olive oil.:p

[n2ize]

Move and take a pay cut, or not find a job, or put your spouse out of work. Yeah, I'm sure that would work REAL well.

The reality is that with interest deductions and property tax deductions, we still come out better living here than somewhere else, even when using more than 25% of our income to pay for housing.

Very true. Most of the jobs found here in the Manhattan area simply cannot be found elsewhere and certainly not at the top pay we find here. I pay a good chunk of my salary for housing expenses and still have plenty left over for enjoyment and pleasure.

[K3XR]

The answer you never heard about oil.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MGI5NDYyNDNlMjI3NWZkMWNlY2UyODU2YTgxMDI4YmQ=