Grandfather Advanced to Extra

[w4nti]

Maybe this has been done and I missed it but......lets get a petition going to FCC to Grandfather Advanced to Extra.

ALL the current holders of Advanced are CW Qualified at 13wpm.

I think we ALL agree that the Advanced test was indeed the hardest we all
took before the current license structure came about.

Most of the Advanced are seasoned hams, and have been on the air for years.

What say folks ? Anyone good at petition writting?

Dan/W4NTI

[KC0BUF]

No thanks, I need someplace I can hide from the jerks grousing about how I'm worthless because I got my Extra without the code.

[WA9SVD]

Maybe this has been done and I missed it but......lets get a petition going to FCC to Grandfather Advanced to Extra.

ALL the current holders of Advanced are CW Qualified at 13wpm.

I think we ALL agree that the Advanced test was indeed the hardest we all
took before the current license structure came about.

Most of the Advanced are seasoned hams, and have been on the air for years.

What say folks ? Anyone good at petition writting?

Dan/W4NTI

If it's so easy any you already know all the material, then just take the Extra exam. Whether you take the exam oir get "grandfathered" you would still have to go through the VE system, fill out the paperwork, and pay the VE fee.
The Extra exam DOES cover material NOT on the original Advanced exam, so the FCC has stated that they will NOT "upgrade" anyone. It soulds as if you are looking for a "handout." but the FCC has denied that same request in the past.

[KI4RVH]

I agree with SVD!

73

Chris

[K9STH]

Over the years there have been quite a number of petitions to the FCC to grandfather the Advanced to Extra. Also, from time to time there have been petitions to grandfather those holding General Class or Advanced Class licenses that held them prior to 22 November 1967 (the date that incentive licensing became effective) and those persons lost privileges. Unfortunately, every one of those petitions has been denied by the FCC.

Frankly, the present examination for the Amateur Extra Class license is so easy that there is no reason not to take the examination. The examination for the Amateur Extra was second to only the Novice Class examination that I took in February 1959 in being easy (now the Novice Class examination was definitely harder than the Technician Class examination today). You can completely ignore all of those questions involving any calculations because there are going to be a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 4 questions on your examination that involve any calculations. Therefore, it is possible to get a grade of either 92 or 94 ignoring those questions (passing is 74 percent).

Spend some time looking at the ARRL license manual for the Amateur Extra Class and then take a number of the practice examinations here on QRZ.com. You will find that within a week, or two, you will be passing with "flying colors" and all that remains is to take the examination.

Now I agree that there is no reason not to automatically upgrade all Advanced Class licensees to Amateur Extra Class. However, at least at the present time, the FCC is not going to do this.

Glen, K9STH

[K5RCD]

There are a number of reasons that Advanced class license holders can rightfully advance (pun intended) to retain their distinct license class. They have good reason to be proud of that designation.

The FCC probably won't seriously consider any change that would give themselves any more paperwork to do.

SO:

I suggest that the best thing would be to keep everything as it is, including renewing Advance class licenses in perpetuity for those who already hold them, BUT to just go ahead and grant the same frequency privileges to Advanced class as the current Extra class licensees enjoy.

Such a petition would have a good chance of success.

That should make everyone happy, and the only privilege the Advanced class licensee would not have is the ability to administer Extra class license exams as a VE.

I don't have a dog in this fight however, so it is up to someone else to advance (sorry, I couldn't help it) the cause. :cool:

[W7WV]

If I were an Advanced I would not want to lose that title.
It shows that you have experience for the most part.
Too many Extras know very little as is.

[w3dub]

I think a smarter petition along the lines of what you are suggesting here is a streamlining of the band plans. T/G/E.

Those who want to keep the "distinction" of their advanced class license can do so, whatever that may be, while the band plan in general becomes a lot more simpler.

I've heard a few advanced class hams say they don't see the point in upgrading for so little extra bandwidth.

Food for thought.

[K8YZK]

Not another something for nothing post.

Man (or woman) Up, study and take the test. At least it will show you have a little pride for the hobby.

[K0RGR]

The Evil Empire, otherwise known as ARRL, petitioned for exactly this in the last license restructuring. Many of us wrote comments supporting the idea. FCC said no, anyway, probably because they also proposed grandfathering Techs to General.

We can argue the difficulty of the Advanced all night long, but it was certainly not as hard as the Extra test I took back in the 70's. I did fail the Advanced the first time I took it - because I just happened to be at 555 Battery Street on a Friday morning and decided to give it a shot. As best I can tell, I missed it by one or two questions. This may be because the General test I took a couple years earlier was still fresh in my mind, I don't know. I didn't think SSB and SWR theory were as tough as many of the General questions on impedance matching, etc.. My dad was licensed in the mid-30's and he told me that my General was much tougher than the Class A he took back then.

What I would really like to see FCC do is grandfather all hams who once held the original "Class A" license. Not because they are all wizards or radio Gods, but because it's time we honored these folks and gave them back their CW privileges!

[w4nti]

I liked the suggestion of keeping advanced and just give them the Extra privileges. That would indeed solve the dilemma.

Also the individual that indicated I would get anything out of this.,I suggest you check my QRZ listing.

I was just trying to show a inequity that I see in the present licensing structure.

You see in 1967 I was busy ducking bullets and rockets. I came home in 68 for a short stay and got a FCC notice for being out of my band on 7010 cw with my only working Rock for my Novice rig that I put on the air.

So I know how it feels to get things ripped from ya..

I didn't bother to upgrade till mid 70s when I was stateside again and passed my Advanced in Atlanta and my Extra in Ramstein AB Germany.

Why did I wait so long?

A. I was ticked off at the whole deal (incentive licensing)
B. I didn't need but a General to operate in a foreign land.

With the exception of DUB I see positive input here. Thanks.

Dan/W4NTI

[N8GAV]

The Evil Empire, otherwise known as ARRL, petitioned for exactly this in the last license restructuring. Many of us wrote comments supporting the idea. FCC said no, anyway, probably because they also proposed grandfathering Techs to General

A lot of Techs WERE grandfathered to General when the code was droped to 5 WPM for all classes. That is if you were an Tech prior to 1984 or 85 before they had the two part test for Techs

[N9MOQ]

Maybe this has been done and I missed it but......lets get a petition going to FCC to Grandfather Advanced to Extra. ALL the current holders of Advanced are CW Qualified at 13wpm.

I don't see why the old standard speeches and slogans wouldn't work here...

People who can't seem to learn the Extra written exam and want a license just "handed to them for free" are just "lazy".

Anyone can learn the Extra written material if they spend "only 15 minutes a day" studying it.

The idea that all advanced Hams should just be given a free ticket to Extra shows the further "dumbing down" of Ham Radio.

And besides, once you learn the Extra written, you will find that it is FUN!

Most of the Advanced are seasoned hams, and have been on the air for years.

And that wouldn't apply to seasoned General Hams that have been on the air for years?

What about a Technician or Novice that have been on the air and seasoned for decades?

[K0RGR]

A lot of Techs WERE grandfathered to General when the code was droped to 5 WPM for all classes. That is if you were an Tech prior to 1984 or 85 before they had the two part test for Techs

This happened before the last round of changes. The Tech Exam prior to some such date was the same as the General written, but they had to pass a 5 WPM code test. So, once the General code requirement dropped to 5WPM, those old Techs had already passed a General written exam. You could call that Grandfathering, if you want to.

We used to grandfather anybody licensed before the Federal Radio Commission was started, back before dirt, to Extra Class. But, I suspect there are very few still living who qualify for that one.

[w6ire]

I say leave the advanced class alone. When enough time passes there will come a day when one man holds the distinction of being the last remaining advanced class ham. Everybody will want to work him. He'll be a celebrity.

[WA9SVD]

I liked the suggestion of keeping advanced and just give them the Extra privileges. That would indeed solve the dilemma.

Als

Dan/W4NTI

Beg your pardon?

WHAT dilemma? Other than a few ops that don't want to take the Extra exam, which they themselves claim is "too easy?" What's the dilemma?

The "dilemma" is contrived and imaginary. There's no problem with keeping the the Advanced as a renewable license, even if no new licenses of that class are issued. Same with the Novice license. Or would those so interested in grandfathering want Novices to be grandfathered to General?

[w4nti]

No, this discussion is not about "seasoned General of old Techs".

Pay attention and quit changing the subject.

Your acting like Dubby

HO HO

Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

One more thing...

The General, the Technician and the Novice most certainly never had a test equivilant to the Extra of present day.

Dan/W4NTI

[N8GAV]

No, this discussion is not about "seasoned General of old Techs".

Pay attention and quit changing the subject.

Your acting like Dubby

HO HO

Dan/W4NTI

Hey Dan good Idea but won't fly,and BTW Dubby is a Hero to some of us :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[ai4ep]

just leave things alone.

If you mingle the advanced into being an extra, next thing you know, some one will want to eliminate the cw requirement.

always someone out there for a freebie...what happened to working for your privileges ?

We tend to hold too cheaply things which are given to us.

now some words from my sponsor ......

[WA9SVD]

A lot of Techs WERE grandfathered to General when the code was droped to 5 WPM for all classes. That is if you were an Tech prior to 1984 or 85 before they had the two part test for Techs

THAT is true. They were "grandfathered," because thay had passed the same written exam as the Generals, and with the reduced code speed requirement, had the same qualifications as newly licensed Generals.

THAT is the difference between the two ideas. While some "OLD" Techs were "grandfathered," what the proplsal to grant Amateur Extra licenses to "Advanced" license holders amounts to an UPGRADE, not a grandfathering. It IS a step up in license grade, without the effort of qualifying for a higher license by taking an additional test, and the FCC has adamantly stated they do NOT grant automatic "upgrades."

A similar situation occurred with the Tech license; once the HF code requirement was removed from all licenses, the Tech Pluis had no bearing, and they were "grandfathered" to the Novice /Tech Plus HF privileges. There was NO additional written exam (or technical qualification) involved in that.

[k3wrv]

Why not also grandfather anybody who held a Know Code Novice license to extra? While we're at it, let's grandfather the early CBers too, and of course all Public Safety personnel?. We could also include anybody who ever paid income or social security taxes and anyone who knows which end of a cell fone goes into the charger.

Let's get real - privileges are earned. There are better ways to upgrade the hobby (like requiring a waiting period between Tech and General and Extra). But I'm sure that won't fly on ZED.

[kf6rdn]

Grandfather Advanced to Extra


Congrats to your grandfather!

None of mines was hams..

Oh, err.. THAT grandfather..

Sorry.

[N8GAV]

THAT is true. They were "grandfathered," because thay had passed the same written exam as the Generals, and with the reduced code speed requirement, had the same qualifications as newly licensed Generals.

THAT is the difference between the two ideas. While some "OLD" Techs were "grandfathered," what the proplsal to grant Amateur Extra licenses to "Advanced" license holders amounts to an UPGRADE, not a grandfathering. It IS a step up in license grade, without the effort of qualifying for a higher license by taking an additional test, and the FCC has adamantly stated they do NOT grant automatic "upgrades."

A similar situation occurred with the Tech license; once the HF code requirement was removed from all licenses, the Tech Pluis had no bearing, and they were "grandfathered" to the Novice /Tech Plus HF privileges. There was NO additional written exam (or technical qualification) involved in that.

True, and looking at todays Extra test question pool I see a lot of the questions that were on the old Advanced test. maybe 60-70% of them that I took 20 years ago. Even the New 2008 pool that been out there for a while I see little change as far as theory go's most questions are old Advanced test stuff. Having said that some may ask,"Then why haven't you up graded" I don't know its something I have put on the "Back Burner". :)

[wb5ydk]

In addition to the Advanced-to-Extra upgrade, I'd also like a coupon for some free ham gear which covers those new frequency allocations I would receive!!!

[N8GAV]

In addition to the Advanced-to-Extra upgrade, I'd also like a coupon for some free ham gear which covers those new frequency allocations I would receive!!!

Use the same you have now:D:eek::rolleyes:;)

[ai4ep]

just leave things alone.

so far I am getting my wish....including today.

[KD6NIG]

I think that Generals as well as Advanced have the same method of Grandfathering to Extra:

Take the test.

I'm glad to see everyone is disagreeing with this. If you had agreed with it, I'd be questioning all the "bring the code back" threads we've been seeing for over a year now :)

[KA4DPO]

:)I'm good with things as they are. If I decide I want to upgrade I'll go pay the 14 bucks and take the test. I don't see a problem here.

[K0HWY]

If I were an Advanced I would not want to lose that title.
It shows that you have experience for the most part.
Too many Extras know very little as is.

I agree.

Advanced Class licensees find themselves in the weird but modern day norm of being penalized by bureaucratic red tape. Most of them have far more knowledge of subjects pertaining to this hobby than today's Extra Class ops.

Personally, if I had worked as hard as many of them did to achieve the Advanced Class status as compared to how easy it is to become an Extra Class op these days, I'd just say to hell with it and keep my title and accept the limitations.

If you really want to become an Extra, go take the test. You probably know more than you think. And, even if you don't there are two other options. Study like you did to get your Advanced Class license or do what hundreds of hams are doing these days; memorize the published question pool.

I do agree though, Advanced Class should have been automatically upgraded. But petition all you want, they don't give a rat's arse.

[N2RJ]

Leave it as is.

If the "Advanced" licensees want to upgrade to Extra they will. Don't force them.

The suggestion about just giving them the privileges but keeping the "status" is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[WW3QB]

If I were an Advanced I would not want to lose that title.
It shows that you have experience for the most part.
Too many Extras know very little as is.

I was Advanced from 1974-2008. I recently upgraded because I really wanted to use the bottom 25 kHz of the bands. That is where the exciting CW action is. I find it ironic that some want to keep the 13 WPM badge while it is clear that they don't use CW anyway.

It's about actually operating on the air, not an artificial honor that only exists on QRZ.

Edit: Yes, a lot of the Extra test was from the Advanced. But it really does not matter.

[W5HTW]

Grandfather everybody, everywhere. That's what we do in every other endeavor humans can dream up. There are no red ribbons. Only varying shades of blue. No "B" varsity sports teams. Only A, AA, AAA, and AAAA, and probably AAAAAAAAAAAA. Everyone everywhere is Class A-1 top notch, no bottom rung on the ladder. Only the top step, maing a one-rung ladder.

Grandfather everyone you can find. Immediately.

[w3dub]

Leave it as is.

If the "Advanced" licensees want to upgrade to Extra they will. Don't force them.

The suggestion about just giving them the privileges but keeping the "status" is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I was talking about streamlining. Which is what happens to a lot of antiquated systems. We have band plans for two licenses that don't even exist. I'm sure we're going to have another change soon (read not now, but in the future -- it always happens) as well. What happens there when those license classes cease to exist? Just add another band plan for a license class or classes that don't exist? Sooner or later it just becomes a mess.

I'm sure this is going to be addressed. And yes, there are advanced people who don't want to upgrade, and "take the test". What are they gaining? Not a whole heck of a lot anymore. It's pretty much pointless. I don't blame people for not wanting to sit down and take another test for generally 25khz of space on some bands.

I don't understand why people want to keep their advanced licenses either. But since essentially they had to take four tests to get where they were, why shouldn't they have the same privledges that others who only needed to take three to get more have?

Look at it from that perspective. As to why they want to wear the Advanced tag as a badge of courage, you'll need to ask them.

[wb6mmj]

Maybe this has been done and I missed it but......lets get a petition going to FCC to Grandfather Advanced to Extra.

ALL the current holders of Advanced are CW Qualified at 13wpm.

I think we ALL agree that the Advanced test was indeed the hardest we all
took before the current license structure came about.

Most of the Advanced are seasoned hams, and have been on the air for years.

What say folks ? Anyone good at petition writting?

Dan/W4NTI

I think anyone who took the General and Advanced tests of the 1970`s should be Grandfathered to extra. Those tests were so much harder than anything today.
They give away the licenses now.

[KA3JLW]

I say leave the advanced class alone. When enough time passes there will come a day when one man holds the distinction of being the last remaining advanced class ham. Everybody will want to work him. He'll be a celebrity.
I just renewed my Adv Ticket through 2018; I'm 40 years old now. I'll be 60 in 2028 - and that'll be my goal, reachable with only one more renewal.

Planning is already underway to deal with the expected pileups in 2028. By then, I expect that messy "transmissions" will be a thing of the past and the band plans will describe internet chat rooms and forums. I'll virtually stand in the middle of one and toss out QSLs for only $23 each, not even worrying about exchanging a signal report. I expect I'll become a DXCC entity, and that others will mount my back and set up scaffolding as part of their DXpedition to "Advanced Island."

ire, You are dead on!

[N8CPA]

I cannot think of a single Advanced I knew wanted an upgrade, who did not upgrade. All the ones I know who are still Advanced, like the distinction of the class of having passed the hardest test in the battery. Some might even feel put out, having the current Extra license foisted on them. To them, the "upgrade" would be a downgrade.

[N8MME]

There are a number of reasons that Advanced class license holders can rightfully advance (pun intended) to retain their distinct license class. They have good reason to be proud of that designation.

The FCC probably won't seriously consider any change that would give themselves any more paperwork to do.

SO:

I suggest that the best thing would be to keep everything as it is, including renewing Advance class licenses in perpetuity for those who already hold them, BUT to just go ahead and grant the same frequency privileges to Advanced class as the current Extra class licensees enjoy.



Such a petition would have a good chance of success.

That should make everyone happy, and the only privilege the Advanced class licensee would not have is the ability to administer Extra class license exams as a VE.

I don't have a dog in this fight however, so it is up to someone else to advance (sorry, I couldn't help it) the cause. :cool:

I totally agree with you. :)

[WD4CHP]

As the old saying goes "when you are up to your chin in it, don't make waves."

We Advanced Class operators would have upgraded a long time ago if we had wanted to.

Question???
How many of you old timers can pass the exam now that you took for the class license you hold now?

BTW, we need another icon to express Question, :confused: doesn't express it.

[N2RJ]

I was talking about streamlining. Which is what happens to a lot of antiquated systems. We have band plans for two licenses that don't even exist. I'm sure we're going to have another change soon (read not now, but in the future -- it always happens) as well. What happens there when those license classes cease to exist? Just add another band plan for a license class or classes that don't exist? Sooner or later it just becomes a mess.

I'm sure this is going to be addressed. And yes, there are advanced people who don't want to upgrade, and "take the test". What are they gaining? Not a whole heck of a lot anymore. It's pretty much pointless. I don't blame people for not wanting to sit down and take another test for generally 25khz of space on some bands.

I don't understand why people want to keep their advanced licenses either. But since essentially they had to take four tests to get where they were, why shouldn't they have the same privledges that others who only needed to take three to get more have?

Look at it from that perspective. As to why they want to wear the Advanced tag as a badge of courage, you'll need to ask them.

Why streamline a system that doesn't need streamlining?

I just can't see WHY we need to change a system that isn't really broken.

If it aint broken, don't try to fix it!

[N9MOQ]

I think anyone who took the General and Advanced tests of the 1970`s should be Grandfathered to extra. Those tests were so much harder than anything today.

If the Extra is so easy today, then what prevents those that took much harder tests from taking and passing this allegedly easier test?

Why would there still exist General and Advanced Hams if the Extra test is so easy?

Because they can't pass the Extra test, that is the only logical reason that makes any sense.

Instead of arguing this fact, you all can go ahead and prove us wrong by taking and passing the test. After all, it is so easy, most of you shouldn't even have to study for it, right? So what's the delay?

They give away the licenses now.

No, that is what you and some others are suggesting that they do, just give it away, because taking the Extra test is apparently too hard to pass.

[N9MOQ]

From Monitoring Times magazine - April 2008 issue - page 11

Bell holds an advanced license and goes by the call sign W6OBB. He hasn't upgraded intentionally. "If you have an advanced-class license, that means you had to take a code test at one point. It's a challenge that one day was part of the hobby. It isn't now," says Bell. "I'm not bemoaning the fact that we have the no-code extra or the no-code license now. I think it's time in the hobby. I'm not one of those people who goes around moaning and complaining about the no coders out there."

Interesting to note...

W6OBB finally did upgrade from Advanced to Extra effective 07/18/2007.

He did this months before the article claims he intentionally does not want to upgrade.

[N2RJ]

There are a number of reasons that Advanced class license holders can rightfully advance (pun intended) to retain their distinct license class. They have good reason to be proud of that designation.

The FCC probably won't seriously consider any change that would give themselves any more paperwork to do.

SO:

I suggest that the best thing would be to keep everything as it is, including renewing Advance class licenses in perpetuity for those who already hold them, BUT to just go ahead and grant the same frequency privileges to Advanced class as the current Extra class licensees enjoy.

Such a petition would have a good chance of success.

That should make everyone happy, and the only privilege the Advanced class licensee would not have is the ability to administer Extra class license exams as a VE.

I don't have a dog in this fight however, so it is up to someone else to advance (sorry, I couldn't help it) the cause. :cool:

I'm sure some of the "advanced" licensees would just love that.

They would get to be snobs while having the full privileges that Extras have.

I say let them choose "status" or the lower 25kC of the band.

I also don't think the FCC will honor giving more privileges to "Advanced" class licensees. It will serve no regulatory purpose. If you notice, they've been taking away privileges from "advanced" licensees and aligning them with General.

What was so hard about getting an "advanced" license anyway? It's only 13WPM code (been there, done that) and the material is pretty easy.

So I say let them upgrade or hang on to their status, while I enjoy a less crowded lower 25kC.

[AC0H]

Maybe this has been done and I missed it but......lets get a petition going to FCC to Grandfather Advanced to Extra.

ALL the current holders of Advanced are CW Qualified at 13wpm.

I think we ALL agree that the Advanced test was indeed the hardest we all
took before the current license structure came about.

Most of the Advanced are seasoned hams, and have been on the air for years.

What say folks ? Anyone good at petition writting?

Dan/W4NTI

How about just going and taking the test?

If you passed the old Advanced class theory test the current Extra class test will be a walk in the park.

Or is it that some don't want to have to pony up the $14 test fee? More something for nothing?

[w4nti]

I agree.

Advanced Class licensees find themselves in the weird but modern day norm of being penalized by bureaucratic red tape. Most of them have far more knowledge of subjects pertaining to this hobby than today's Extra Class ops.

Personally, if I had worked as hard as many of them did to achieve the Advanced Class status as compared to how easy it is to become an Extra Class op these days, I'd just say to hell with it and keep my title and accept the limitations.

If you really want to become an Extra, go take the test. You probably know more than you think. And, even if you don't there are two other options. Study like you did to get your Advanced Class license or do what hundreds of hams are doing these days; memorize the published question pool.

I do agree though, Advanced Class should have been automatically upgraded. But petition all you want, they don't give a rat's arse.


Now wait a minute here. Are you not ignoring the fact that every single Extra Class licensee, coded, or not, newer ticketed or been around since Marconi have taken and passed the Advanced?

Now your saying they are inferior ?

I am seriously confused.


Dan/W4NTI

[w4nti]

As the old saying goes "when you are up to your chin in it, don't make waves."

We Advanced Class operators would have upgraded a long time ago if we had wanted to.

Question???
How many of you old timers can pass the exam now that you took for the class license you hold now?

BTW, we need another icon to express Question, :confused: doesn't express it.


Man's got a point here. I think I could pass the exact same Extra test I took in 1977 or maybe 78. (Are youse guys sitting down?) It WAS ALL TUBE QUESTIONS. That's right. After I studied my rump off to bring myself up to date on "solid state"....I get a test full of tubes. What a deal.

But your probably correct, I would have to study to get up dated. It is no piece of cake to pass any Federal test.

Dan/W4NTI

[WA9SVD]

With the license restructuring, the Advanced licens holders did indeed have an almost two year "window of opportunity" where they merely had to take an "Extra" exam that included ONLY Extra material, not the combined Advanced AND Extra material now on the Extra exam. If they wanted the upgrade so badly, THAT was their chance.

Or maybe "Old" Generals should be upgraded to Extra privileges, because before disincentive licensing, they had full HF privileges, too.

[N8UZE]

I think anyone who took the General and Advanced tests of the 1970`s should be Grandfathered to extra. Those tests were so much harder than anything today.
They give away the licenses now.

How do you know that they were so much harder than today? Some of those who actually took the tests then say that they were NOT harder.

[kr2c]

From Monitoring Times magazine - April 2008 issue - page 11



Interesting to note...

W6OBB finally did upgrade from Advanced to Extra effective 07/18/2007.

He did this months before the article claims he intentionally does not want to upgrade.

Does this mean he doesn't know the code anymore?

[K7JEM]

Now wait a minute here. Are you not ignoring the fact that every single Extra Class licensee, coded, or not, newer ticketed or been around since Marconi have taken and passed the Advanced?

Now your saying they are inferior ?

I am seriously confused.


Dan/W4NTI

I'm an extra, I never took the Advanced test.

Joe

[wb6mmj]

If the Extra is so easy today, then what prevents those that took much harder tests from taking and passing this allegedly easier test?

Why would there still exist General and Advanced Hams if the Extra test is so easy?

Because they can't pass the Extra test, that is the only logical reason that makes any sense.

Instead of arguing this fact, you all can go ahead and prove us wrong by taking and passing the test. After all, it is so easy, most of you shouldn't even have to study for it, right? So what's the delay?



No, that is what you and some others are suggesting that they do, just give it away, because taking the Extra test is apparently too hard to pass.

I know I could pass the test with little or no effort. I choose not to because I do not like the incentive licensing program.
I also grew up in the 1960`s and do not like to be manipulated by others.
Try to have a open mind to what others might be thinking. Just because someone doesn`t do something doesn`t mean they can`t do it. Check out my web page.
I`m not a stupid person. I love to learn.

[wb6mmj]

How do you know that they were so much harder than today? Some of those who actually took the tests then say that they were NOT harder.

The people I have talked with say they were harder then than now. There was also 20 wpm as part of the extra exam.
The Advanced test, from people I have talked with, say that it was harder than the Extra written.
Just going by what people have told me. I would have to agree after seeing the tests from then and now.

[KB2QU]

If I were an Advanced I would not want to lose that title.
It shows that you have experience for the most part.
Too many Extras know very little as is.
Having held the Advanced Class for almost 30 years and getting back into the hobby after 10 year absence and seeing how things have changed is the reason I won't upgrade. With the Extra how much more will I gain?

[N9MOQ]

Try to have a open mind to what others might be thinking. Just because someone doesn`t do something doesn`t mean they can`t do it.

I understood that fact very well when Hams who didn't want to learn Morse Code said it.

Back when they were called "lazy" and not real Hams.

I think many are just shocked to hear now how we should all be tolerant of Hams that don't want to upgrade, and that it doesn't mean they are lazy or want things handed to them for free. The only difference being learning the Extra written, as opposed to learning Morse Code.

My how everything changes when the shoe is on the other foot.

[kr2c]

I understood that fact very well when Hams who didn't want to learn Morse Code said it.

Back when they were called "lazy" and not real Hams.

I think many are just shocked to hear now how we should all be tolerant of Hams that don't want to upgrade, and that it doesn't mean they are lazy or want things handed to them for free. The only difference being learning the Extra written, as opposed to learning Morse Code.

My how everything changes when the shoe is on the other foot.

The connection has been made. Bravo

[K3VR]

I held an Advanced ticket and took and passed the 20 wpm Extra for the additional band privileges.

I remember the Advanced test as being heavy on math, heavier than the other exams anyway, with several longish formulas.

Are you all saying people actually remain in the Advanced class because it shows they passed a code test at one point??

[WW3QB]

Having held the Advanced Class for almost 30 years and getting back into the hobby after 10 year absence and seeing how things have changed is the reason I won't upgrade. With the Extra how much more will I gain?

Same here. I was Advanced from 1974-2008. I passed the Advanced at age 15. Not a big deal back then. I upgraded to Extra last month, I found the bottom 25 kHz of the HF bands very valuable. If you use CW, there is more DX there than the rest of the band and no interference from digital modes. If you use 75m SSB, that extra 100 kHz is very roomy. On the other bands on SSB, there is more DX.

If you really operate, you would want the Extra.

I prepared more for the Extra than I did the Advanced. But at 15, I did not take much seriously.

[N8GAV]

I held an Advanced ticket and took and passed the 20 wpm Extra for the additional band privileges.

I remember the Advanced test as being heavy on math, heavier than the other exams anyway, with several longish formulas.

Are you all saying people actually remain in the Advanced class because it shows they passed a code test at one point??

That not what I am saying Brain, I am asking why I should take the same theory test that I have already passed? Most questions they are asking now,were on my Advanced test 20 years ago or more. The VEC's just re-worded some of them but they have the same answer.Come to think of it I took my Advanced test with a FCC team at the old Hoiliday House over in Monroville, so it may be longer then 20 years ago.

[N2RJ]

Are you all saying people actually remain in the Advanced class because it shows they passed a code test at one point??

Yep.

.................

[N2RJ]

That not what I am saying Brain, I am asking why I should take the same theory test that I have already passed?

Because that is the requirement now to get an Extra class license.

You can either suck it up and pass the test (because since you passed it years ago, it should be a piece of cake to pass it again) or keep your old license and privileges.

When I came to this country I had to pass a driving test to get a driver license here. I also had to pass the four tests (three written plus code) to get my full amateur privileges here in the USA. I did it because those are the rules, and it certainly wasn't difficult at all.

[N2RJ]

I know I could pass the test with little or no effort. I choose not to because I do not like the incentive licensing program.
I also grew up in the 1960`s and do not like to be manipulated by others.


Well then, I guess you can sacrifice the bottom 25kHz because of what you believe.

I've done without a few things on principle.

[KA4DPO]

This entire thread is a lot of hot air over nothing. Like I said before, if I decide to upgrade I'll pay the 14 bucks and take the test. If I thought I couldn't pass the current exam for extra I'd commit suicide.

Right now I'm very happy with things as they are thank you very much.:)

[K0HWY]

The people I have talked with say they were harder then than now. There was also 20 wpm as part of the extra exam.
The Advanced test, from people I have talked with, say that it was harder than the Extra written.
Just going by what people have told me. I would have to agree after seeing the tests from then and now.

In addition, they were all harder because candidates didn't have the modern luxury of being able to go online and memorize the entire question pool.

[K8MHZ]

Now wait a minute here. Are you not ignoring the fact that every single Extra Class licensee, coded, or not, newer ticketed or been around since Marconi have taken and passed the Advanced?

Now your saying they are inferior ?

I am seriously confused.


Dan/W4NTI

I didn't take an Advanced test. Maybe I didn't quite comprehend what you were saying, Dan.

I would like to take one just to see what it was like. If I had to learn more in order to pass an Advanced test I would do just that and consider it to be self improvement.

If you ever get the urge to use the Extra class portions and don't feel like it is one of life's priorities to take and pass the Extra test, I say we figure out some way to get together, I'll buy the beer and keep one hand on the power switch and you can use my call sign. It would be an honor. If you do decide, for some reason to take the Extra exam and there are some parts of the Extra test that are a bit hard to grasp, let me know, I would be more than willing to help as it would also be an honor to have helped you pass, which, BTW, I don't think would be much of a problem for you.

Probably the only changes that would be pertinent are those related to the rules, as the theory has pretty much remained the same since the days of Tesla.

Thanks for your service and being a friend.

[N8GAV]

Because that is the requirement now to get an Extra class license.

You can either suck it up and pass the test (because since you passed it years ago, it should be a piece of cake to pass it again) or keep your old license and privileges.

When I came to this country I had to pass a driving test to get a driver license here. I also had to pass the four tests (three written plus code) to get my full amateur privileges here in the USA. I did it because those are the rules, and it certainly wasn't difficult at all.

OK Ryan I see your point,and what you say is true I should just do it. I may not have been clear on what I want to say. The VEC program has used the same questions over and over.I don't know if you have ever looked over the question pools but it seem to me no changes have been made for a good while.Once in a while some new questions are added but the bulk of them are the same old same old just re-worded and repackaged with the same answers. Case in point page 119 in the 1984 ARRL Advanced study guide,
"What is the [I]time factor for an initial charge of 20 V DC to decrease to 0.37 V DC in a 0.01 microfarad capacitor when a 2-megohm resistor is connected across it?

In the extra class Gordon West book good untill this June page 111:
How long dose it take for an initial charge of 20 V DC to decrease to 0.37 V DC in a 0.01 microfarad capacitor when a 2-megohm resistor is connected across it?

The answer if you math is right 0.08 seconds
Same old same old

[AF9J]

I don't get it. What's with the demands over the past couple of years or so, by some hams, to get grandfathered from Advanced to Extra? Back when I got my Extra in '94, almost every Advanced I knew, could have cared less about getting an Extra. If you didn't want it then, why now?

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[K8YZK]

Why not put a Extra Class license application in a box of Wheaties(breakfast of champions), and with proof of 20 purchases of Wheaties, you will get your Extra.

With the dumming down of Ham Radio it makes sense, and would help out the economy, as it keeps farmer growing wheat, suppliers buying it and selling it to the ceral makers, who sell it to the stores, who sell it to those who want it. Besides it is full of fiber and help keep the bowels clean. Which is better then some of the post here.

Kurt

[WW3QB]

Why not put a Extra Class license application in a box of Wheaties(breakfast of champions), and with proof of 20 purchases of Wheaties, you will get your Extra.

With the dumming down of Ham Radio it makes sense, and would help out the economy, as it keeps farmer growing wheat, suppliers buying it and selling it to the ceral makers, who sell it to the stores, who sell it to those who want it. Besides it is full of fiber and help keep the bowels clean. Which is better then some of the post here.

Kurt

You are overestimating the demand for Extra or any ham radio license.

[N8UZE]

The people I have talked with say they were harder then than now. There was also 20 wpm as part of the extra exam.
The Advanced test, from people I have talked with, say that it was harder than the Extra written.
Just going by what people have told me. I would have to agree after seeing the tests from then and now.

We were talking the written tests not the code test. Also when material is new to you it seems harder than it does later after you are familiar with it and have experience with it.

At that time the Advanced written was harder than the Extra written but the Extra did cover material that was not on the Advanced. That has changed. Today's Extra exam incorporates all the material from both the Advanced and Extra exams. The question pool is now 800 questions instead of being two separate pools of roughly 400 and 500 each.

I took the Advanced and Extra exams in 1992. I teach classes for Extra today. Today's Extra is every bit as hard as the combined Advanced and Extra was in 1992.

To prove that exams before the VE system went into effect were harder, you cannot go by what people say. Since the material was new to them at the time, it will have seemed very hard no matter what the difficulty level. You need to get copies of the test and compare them.

[N8UZE]

I'm an extra, I never took the Advanced test.

Joe

Based on the ULS data, you are one of the few who fell into that "window of opportunity" between April of 2000 (reducing the number of classes) and July 2002 (expanded the Extra question pool to include all the Advanced material).

So you are correct in that you did not take the Advanced test or the Advanced material incorporated in the updated Extra question pool.

[WA9SVD]

Dee is right. The current Amateur Extra written exam COMBINES the material originally in the Advanced exam with the material originally on the Extra written exam.
The material is NOT easier; the question pool and scope of the material IS expanded; the only real difference is the number of questions on the actual written exam. not difficulty or "easiness."

[wb6mmj]

We were talking the written tests not the code test. Also when material is new to you it seems harder than it does later after you are familiar with it and have experience with it.

At that time the Advanced written was harder than the Extra written but the Extra did cover material that was not on the Advanced. That has changed. Today's Extra exam incorporates all the material from both the Advanced and Extra exams. The question pool is now 800 questions instead of being two separate pools of roughly 400 and 500 each.

I took the Advanced and Extra exams in 1992. I teach classes for Extra today. Today's Extra is every bit as hard as the combined Advanced and Extra was in 1992.

To prove that exams before the VE system went into effect were harder, you cannot go by what people say. Since the material was new to them at the time, it will have seemed very hard no matter what the difficulty level. You need to get copies of the test and compare them.

Please read what I wrote. I was comparing the Advanced test to the Extra "written". Yes the Extra had the 20 wpm code test. I thought it was worth saying for all of you NO CODERS.
Also, look at the tests back in the 1970`s and 1980`s. That is what I`m really talking about. Were you around then?

[wb6mmj]

Well then, I guess you can sacrifice the bottom 25kHz because of what you believe.

I've done without a few things on principle.

Wouldn`t bother me.

[K7JEM]

Please read what I wrote. I was comparing the Advanced test to the Extra "written". Yes the Extra had the 20 wpm code test. I thought it was worth saying for all of you NO CODERS.
Also, look at the tests back in the 1970`s and 1980`s. That is what I`m really talking about. Were you around then?

I was around then, and I have a copy of a 1977 study manual that covers material for advanced and extra, along with sample questions. And the material was no more difficult back then than it is today. There were more questions, since to get an extra a person had to take both advanced and extra, but the material itself was on par with what it is today.

It is a fallacy that is promoted and believed by many hams that the test material was somehow more "difficult" back then. Certainly, not having available question pools and being required to take the test at the FCC facility made it seem harder, but reality tells us differently.

Joe

[kk7ue]

Just go take the test if you are so inclined. I went from to Advanced to Extra out of sheer lazyness if anything. I was too lazy to remember to stay off the lowest 25kc of any particular band, and by doing so when I did the FCC did not require the 20wpm code. So I lost my 'prestige' for a small sliver of spectrum? Bragging rights dont make contacts and I can have more fun with the spectrum! :D your mileage may vary

I think 'ire was spot on as well :cool: A great idea for an organization, award, or something. Ya know, work 100 Advanced Club stations and get a nifty award, DXCC Element 4 or whatever.



advanced WAS element 4, right?

[wb6mmj]

I was around then, and I have a copy of a 1977 study manual that covers material for advanced and extra, along with sample questions. And the material was no more difficult back then than it is today. There were more questions, since to get an extra a person had to take both advanced and extra, but the material itself was on par with what it is today.

It is a fallacy that is promoted and believed by many hams that the test material was somehow more "difficult" back then. Certainly, not having available question pools and being required to take the test at the FCC facility made it seem harder, but reality tells us differently.

Joe

Like I said, I have talked with many Hams who say that it was much harder back then than it is now. I believe that also. I was there.
It is ok that you believe different. If we all believed the same things, this would be a boring world.

[K7JEM]

Like I said, I have talked with many Hams who say that it was much harder back then than it is now. I believe that also. I was there.
It is ok that you believe different. If we all believed the same things, this would be a boring world.

The difference is that I actually have a study manual from that era, so I can back up more than "memory".

I've talked to people that had to walk 10 miles through the snow to school each day, uphill both ways. But when you see what they actually had to do, the reality is sometimes different.

It WAS harder to get a license back then, but not because the material was any more difficult. The way the exams were administered made them "harder" that the way it is done today.

Joe

[wv6z]

If I were an Advanced I would not want to lose that title.
It shows that you have experience for the most part.
Too many Extras know very little as is.

I agree and held out on upgrading for a while for that very reason, however, it is quite easy to do a search via ULS and other databases that are even better for checking one's proficiency. I thought eHam was one that showed CW proficiency, for example, but it doesn't. Does anyone remember which site shows that?

[N8UZE]

I agree and held out on upgrading for a while for that very reason, however, it is quite easy to do a search via ULS and other databases that are even better for checking one's proficiency. I thought eHam was one that showed CW proficiency, for example, but it doesn't. Does anyone remember which site shows that?

http://www.ae7q.com/

This site shows code proficiency as deduced from license and date of license. However, since waivers have been available for higher code speeds for a couple of decades or so, it may not be accurate (i.e. Generals, Advanced and Extras might have only passed the 5wpm and then got waivers for the higher speeds). Also if you have had a name change, the system calculates it incorrectly as it doesn't tie your new name to your old one. That one happened to me so I wrote the site administrator about the bug. He fixed my listing manually but don't know if he has changed the system. There may be other possible administrative changes regarding the CORES/ULS that might cause the same problem.

[N8UZE]

The difference is that I actually have a study manual from that era, so I can back up more than "memory".

I've talked to people that had to walk 10 miles through the snow to school each day, uphill both ways. But when you see what they actually had to do, the reality is sometimes different.

It WAS harder to get a license back then, but not because the material was any more difficult. The way the exams were administered made them "harder" that the way it is done today.

Joe

Precisely. Memory is a very poor measuring stick. Back when I test on 5wpm code, I felt like it was nearly impossible. Now it puts me to sleep as it's too easy to hold my attention. If I relied on memory, I would say 5wpm was very hard but that would not be true.

"Eye witness" testimony has been proved wrong in many a court case. But people don't want to admit they are wrong. I was watching one of the true crime type shows about a fellow who was convicted of rape based on eye witness testimony. Later DNA evidence testing on the stored evidence, once that technique became available, showed it was not him but the witnesses would not/could not admit they made a mistake.

[N8UZE]

Like I said, I have talked with many Hams who say that it was much harder back then than it is now. I believe that also. I was there.
It is ok that you believe different. If we all believed the same things, this would be a boring world.

K7JEM has posted in this and other threads about documentary evidence that he has in his hands. Ed Hare, of the ARRL, has discussed the documents available in the ARRL archives as well in other threads. Ed once was one who believed that they were harder than they are now. Per his postings, he found out differently when he checked the archives to "prove" to another that they were harder. He was surprised to find that he was wrong.

[NN3W]

Like I said, I have talked with many Hams who say that it was much harder back then than it is now. I believe that also. I was there.
It is ok that you believe different. If we all believed the same things, this would be a boring world.

I think you need to step back a couple decades to discern a quantum level of difference in terms of difficulty.

Step back to the 1950s and 1960s where you didnt look up the VE schedule and get ready for the test at the local Moose Lodge. Instead you had to go to the FCC regional office, sit in front of a government examiner and take the test. You had to look at schematics, draw schematics, explain why a particular component was placed in line, and explain theory much more so than in the 80s.

There is no doubt in my mind that the exams from the 50s and 60s were much more difficult than the 80s or even today.

Now as to the exam in the 1980s, I proffer the following...I took the Novice in Sept. 1986, the General the following March, the Advanced that October, and the Extra in February of 1988. It wasn't rocket science then. I was all of 15 at that point. Looking at my Extra class study guides from 1988 and the sample pool from then, most all the questions then appear in nearly identical form in the 2007/8 series of questions.

[WA9SVD]

I think you need to step back a couple decades to discern a quantum level of difference in terms of difficulty.

Step back to the 1950s and 1960s where you didnt look up the VE schedule and get ready for the test at the local Moose Lodge. Instead you had to go to the FCC regional office, sit in front of a government examiner and take the test. You had to look at schematics, draw schematics, explain why a particular component was placed in line, and explain theory much more so than in the 80s.

There is no doubt in my mind that the exams from the 50s and 60s were much more difficult than the 80s or even today.

Now as to the exam in the 1980s, I proffer the following...I took the Novice in Sept. 1986, the General the following March, the Advanced that October, and the Extra in February of 1988. It wasn't rocket science then. I was all of 15 at that point. Looking at my Extra class study guides from 1988 and the sample pool from then, most all the questions then appear in nearly identical form in the 2007/8 series of questions.


While many of us "disagree" whether or not the exams are actually more "difficult," there are different measures of difficulty, and the electronic and radio technologies have changed immensely in the past 40-50 years. When some of us were first licensed, solid-state devices (save for a few diodes and selenium rectifier stacks) were either a twinkle in the eye of Bell Labs, or still experimental curiosities, and vacuum tubes reigned king.
Now, solid state technology is all but universal, with vacuum tubes reserved (in almost all cases) for high power applications, and even in that niche, solid state devices are becoming even more common and (relatively) affordable. Other technologies have also developed that weren't even dreamed of in the 50's, 60's, or even 70's. ATV, SSTV, PSK31, satellite communications, even Packet radio is now included in the material covered by the present Amateur written exams. That's all knowledge not required in the past.

To be sure, the exams are no longer as "technical" from the "Nuts and Bolts" electronoic design/component standpoint, but the new concepts now required may compensate for that difference.
So while the emphasis of the exams may well have changed from practical and technical to conceptual, the actual difficulty level may indeed remain the same.

[k8pg]

I Think the Old Novice ticket from 1972 is much more difficult than todays
"Extra" exam Id bet a lot of so called New No Code Extras would fail !


Paul - K8PG CW IS- DX IS

[WA9SVD]

I Think the Old Novice ticket from 1972 is much more difficult than todays
"Extra" exam Id bet a lot of so called New No Code Extras would fail !


Paul - K8PG CW IS- DX IS

Then again, if what you say is true, how many 1972 Novices could have passed today's Extra Exam?:rolleyes:

I doubt the debate over the difficulty of exams now vs. "then" will never end, and probably 50 years from now, there will be (hopefully) OT's and OF's who say "The test back in '08 was a LOT harder than it is today." With the test in 50 years covering technology we haven't even dreamt of yet.

ADDED:

In all honesty, the debate is becoming tedious, and may be more a matter of semantics and viewpoint, rather than a measurable quantity. What should be MORE important is that rather than arguing, we find ways to deal with the current situation as mandated by the FCC, and work toward improving Amateur Radio. That means the OT's and OF's should help the newbies, both in "old technology," such as circuit analysis and understanding, and the newbies should accept (at least constructive) criticism, and be open to learning from OT's. And all need to remember that the "generation gap" means we all have different skills, strengths and weaknesses, and should work to complement each other's abilities.

[N9MOQ]

Just think. One day, when there is no more chance to get an Extra license at all, Extras will be bragging about how hard the Extra test was back in 2008, and how terrible it is that only one class exists that is even easier than the Technician Class exam was back in 2008.

Will today's Extras be just as stubborn and refuse to accept the automatic transfer to the new one class license, because the process to get one is not as hard?

A better way to look at it, is thinking about when the oportunity to get an Extra is no longer an option at all, and will you wish you would have gotten it back years ago when you had the chance?

You can keep your Advanced license (even a wallet copy on you at all times) to prove to anyone that you had it, while at the same time going ahead and getting your Extra class.

Since you can always prove (with your old license copy) that you had the Advanced, there is no excuse not to get the Extra upgrade, unless you really can't pass the test because it is much harder, or you forgot everything over the years.

[WW3QB]

I Think the Old Novice ticket from 1972 is much more difficult than todays
"Extra" exam Id bet a lot of so called New No Code Extras would fail !


Paul - K8PG CW IS- DX IS


I took took the Novice test in 1973 (age 14) and the Extra in 2008 (age 48). The Novice was simple, very basic. Just a formality needing a couple of hours of review. The Extra, though not extraordinarily difficult, needed many hours of review.

BTW, as I stated before, The General and Advanced I took in 1974 were not that difficult either. But I had more brain cells back then.

[K4GUN]

Beg your pardon?

WHAT dilemma? Other than a few ops that don't want to take the Extra exam, which they themselves claim is "too easy?" What's the dilemma?

The "dilemma" is contrived and imaginary. There's no problem with keeping the the Advanced as a renewable license, even if no new licenses of that class are issued. Same with the Novice license. Or would those so interested in grandfathering want Novices to be grandfathered to General?

I think the "dilemma" is not so much that Advanced hams don't want to take the test to upgrade to Extra. At least I don't think that is the case. I think its more that those who hold the Advanced class know that they hold what is actually a more respected class of license yet have less band access. I have read quite a few comments here at the Zed and in person from Advanced hams that like their distinction. Its a more prestigious class than the current Extra ticket.

I don't really have an opinion on changing things. I hold an Extra ticket, but I do so quite humbly. I know full well that I got mine the easy way and have nothing but respect and admiration for those who didn't. It wouldn't bother me a bit to share that extra 25 KHz with the Advanced class.

[w3dub]

^^ possibly the most cogent post I've seen on this argument. The fact is.. lets look at the current setup

T->G->E

Now lets look at the old one:

N->Code->T->G->Code->A->E->Code

So, while current hams had to take only three tests to get the full amount of spectrum available to them, Advanced class licensees took twice that to get to where they were, with less privileges.

Meanwhile, we have a band plan with two license classes that havent existed for close to a decade. When we change things again, will we keep those as well?

I don't know how my argument could not be considered positive, as the OP suggested several pages back. Frankly, Adv class licenses deserve to have the full slate of privileges, whether their ticket says Extra or not.

[w4nti]

Yep.

.................

You know how I show it? (passed a code test) I USE THE CODE.

And you know what else....I CAN do it at 50wpm plus.

Dan/W4NTI

[KB2QU]

Since you can always prove (with your old license copy) that you had the Advanced, there is no excuse not to get the Extra upgrade
Yes there is I just don't care too.

[w4nti]

Uh....thanks for the compliment. I don't understand....how is it you didn't ever take the Advanced test? Your listed as Extra on QRZ. I always though to get to Extra you needed to pass Advanced first.

Now on to this....why do I need to have you hold my hand? So I can operate in the Extra sub bands???

Last time I had to worry about that was in about 1976 or so. I passed Extra a LONG time back.

Dan/W4NTI

[NN3W]

^^ possibly the most cogent post I've seen on this argument. The fact is.. lets look at the current setup

T->G->E

Now lets look at the old one:

N->Code->T->G->Code->A->E->Code

So, while current hams had to take only three tests to get the full amount of spectrum available to them, Advanced class licensees took twice that to get to where they were, with less privileges.

Meanwhile, we have a band plan with two license classes that havent existed for close to a decade. When we change things again, will we keep those as well?

I don't know how my argument could not be considered positive, as the OP suggested several pages back. Frankly, Adv class licenses deserve to have the full slate of privileges, whether their ticket says Extra or not.

Well its not quite the way you did it....It was bifurcated.

N->G->A->E or N->T->G->A->E.

In the 80s when I did the upgrade game, we had a license prep class for Techs/Generals given by the local radio club. The theory was the same for both classes as the question pool was identical. Half of the class was spent on theory; the other half on CW practice.

When it came to exam time about 9 weeks later, you had the choice of taking only the theory part (i.e., get your tech license), or you could take the CW test and the theory part (i.e., get your General). Since I took both the same day, and took the CW test first, technically I was never a tech - I went from Novice direct to General.

[N9MOQ]

Yes there is I just don't care too.

So long as that excuse is considered just as good for those that say they don't want to learn Morse Code, then fine.

[WA9SVD]

Uh....thanks for the compliment. I don't understand....how is it you didn't ever take the Advanced test? Your listed as Extra on QRZ. I always though to get to Extra you needed to pass Advanced first.

Now on to this....why do I need to have you hold my hand? So I can operate in the Extra sub bands???

Last time I had to worry about that was in about 1976 or so. I passed Extra a LONG time back.

Dan/W4NTI

Actually, it's NOT hard to understand.

Current Extras obviously can't take an Advanced exam, as it's no longer given.
The current Amateur Extra written exam now covers the material from the original "Extra" written exam combined with the material on the "Advanced exam."

So there are thousands of Extras that never took an "Advanced" written exam; that does NOT mean they were not tested on the material, however.

[WA9SVD]

^^ possibly the most cogent post I've seen on this argument. The fact is.. lets look at the current setup

T->G->E

Now lets look at the old one:

N->Code->T->G->Code->A->E->Code

So, while current hams had to take only three tests to get the full amount of spectrum available to them, Advanced class licensees took twice that to get to where they were, with less privileges.

Meanwhile, we have a band plan with two license classes that havent existed for close to a decade. When we change things again, will we keep those as well?

I don't know how my argument could not be considered positive, as the OP suggested several pages back. Frankly, Adv class licenses deserve to have the full slate of privileges, whether their ticket says Extra or not.


But then, shouldn't pre-incentive licensing Generals ALSO get full privileges? THEY also lost, not just Advanced licensees.
Of course, they you would have to create a "General Plus" license class to differentiate between the Generals with full privileges, and those restricted. And obviously, the FCC isn't going to do THAT. There were plenty of TEch+ licensees that got "out of privileges" hassles for operation on 10 Meters (or CW on 80, 40 and 15) when the FCC dropped the "Plus" designation from the database.

[w4nti]

Sorry....ur right....I was thinking of the old testing ways.

Dan/W4NTI

[K3VR]

I always though to get to Extra you needed to pass Advanced first. I passed Extra a LONG time back.

Dan/W4NTI

Yes. Of course, at some point the Advanced test went away. I forget which year it was.

I took the Novice test in 1975. The test required 5 wpm code. Then I took the Technician test, then the General test, which required additional code proficiency, to 13 wpm.

Then I took the Advanced theory test which did not require any more code. Lots of ops stopped at the Advanced level because they couldn't pass 20 wpm code or they were simply satisfied with the Advanced privileges.

The Extra license required more theory and additional code proficienty to 20 wpm.

You had to copy the code perfectly for a solid minute, or answer the majority of the questions correctly about what was sent by the examiner.

The sender's call was ______?

The sender's transmitter was _____?

The weather at the sender's location was ____ and ____?

The sender's antenna was a ____?

The name of the sender's dog was ____?

(remember those!?)

Anyway, all Advanced class ops lack the 20 wpm code proficiency certificate. They also lack the Extra theory, unless someone can prove that at some point Advanced class licensees were administered exactly the same questions that were on the Extra theory test?

[N8GAV]

Yes. Of course, at some point the Advanced test went away. I forget which year it was.

I took the Novice test in 1975. The test required 5 wpm code. Then I took the Technician test, then the General test, which required additional code proficiency, to 13 wpm.

Then I took the Advanced theory test which did not require any more code. Lots of ops stopped at the Advanced level because they couldn't pass 20 wpm code or they were simply satisfied with the Advanced privileges.

The Extra license required more theory and additional code proficienty to 20 wpm.

You had to copy the code perfectly for a solid minute, or answer the majority of the questions correctly about what was sent by the examiner.

The sender's call was ______?

The sender's transmitter was _____?

The weather at the sender's location was ____ and ____?

The sender's antenna was a ____?

The name of the sender's dog was ____?

(remember those!?)

Anyway, all Advanced class ops lack the 20 wpm code proficiency certificate. They also lack the Extra theory, unless someone can prove that at some point Advanced class licensees were administered exactly the same questions that were on the Extra theory test?



My CW test was not an fill in the blanks I had a 10 question a,b,c,d, thing. Like the sender name was:
a. Tom
b. John
c.Fred
d. Allan
If you copied a F --D then the answer was Fred,c that was before fill the blanks

[w4nti]

Yes. Of course, at some point the Advanced test went away. I forget which year it was.

I took the Novice test in 1975. The test required 5 wpm code. Then I took the Technician test, then the General test, which required additional code proficiency, to 13 wpm.

Then I took the Advanced theory test which did not require any more code. Lots of ops stopped at the Advanced level because they couldn't pass 20 wpm code or they were simply satisfied with the Advanced privileges.

The Extra license required more theory and additional code proficienty to 20 wpm.

You had to copy the code perfectly for a solid minute, or answer the majority of the questions correctly about what was sent by the examiner.

The sender's call was ______?

The sender's transmitter was _____?

The weather at the sender's location was ____ and ____?

The sender's antenna was a ____?

The name of the sender's dog was ____?

(remember those!?)

Anyway, all Advanced class ops lack the 20 wpm code proficiency certificate. They also lack the Extra theory, unless someone can prove that at some point Advanced class licensees were administered exactly the same questions that were on the Extra theory test?



Yeah I remember those...from when I was a VE and giving the test. That is just one reason I stopped being a VE.

When I took ALL of my CW tests it consisted of a LONG trip to some testing point, with the exception of the Novice. That was only a few miles away. I took my Schwinn Bike as I remember.

I had to Send at the required speed and Receive at the required speed and transcribe by hand the same to paper. This for a FULL ONE OUT OF FIVE MINUTES. You could bring your own key if you wanted.

The CW test was given first. After it was checked they notified you to take a seat for the written, or take a hike.

Maybe thats why a lot of us think the tests were harder back then. The intimidation level was intense.

Dan/W4NTI

[WA9SVD]

My CW test was not an fill in the blanks I had a 10 question a,b,c,d, thing. Like the sender name was:
a. Tom
b. John
c.Fred
d. Allan
If you copied a F --D then the answer was Fred,c that was before fill the blanks

For that matter, AT ONE TIME, the Morse test was one minute PERFECT copy out of 5 minutes, AND sending at least one minute of perfect code at the required speed (5, 13, or 20 WPM) or higher.
NO fill in the blank, no multiple guess, and no assumption that receive ability was a guarantee of sending ability.
And if you failed either part of the Morse test, you didn't even get a chance to SEE the written exam; you just had to reapply after 30 days. there WERE no CSCE's issued.

[K3VR]

For that matter, AT ONE TIME, the Morse test was one minute PERFECT copy out of 5 minutes, AND sending at least one minute of perfect code at the required speed (5, 13, or 20 WPM) or higher.

Yep, I passed my code tests with a minute of perfect copy, but if you didn't get it all, you had the option of taking a 10 question fill-in-the-blanks test on what you copied.

I think you had to have 70% or better to pass. Most people could send a lot faster than they could receive and I believe that's why they dropped the sending requirement from the exam.

[K7JEM]

I Think the Old Novice ticket from 1972 is much more difficult than todays
"Extra" exam Id bet a lot of so called New No Code Extras would fail !


Paul - K8PG CW IS- DX IS

I hope you're just trying to be funny.

I took the novice in 1974, and it was quite simplistic, not difficult at all. Certainly not as hard as today's technician exam, let alone the extra.

The problem is, when people say such foolish things, others believe them, no matter how outlandish the original statement. Anyone who would make such a statement either doesn't know the truth, or they're trying to deceive.

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement, or are you just wanting to be one of the "Four Yorkshiremen"?

Joe

[AC0GT]

Why exactly should we give Advanced license holders a free upgrade? What is wrong with the status quo?

If the goal is to sunset an end-of-life license quickly then I can offer an equally valid solution. Have all Advanced be granted a General license upon renewal. That would be similar to where all Technician Plus licenses are renewed as Technician.

I figure at the current rate the Advanced license will disappear in thirty years. If my plan of renewing Advanced as General goes into effect then it'd take only ten.

The way I see it there are three kinds of Advanced license holders. The inactive, the active, and the ones that have something to prove. The inactive hold on to their license as a just-in-case measure and probably only dust off the radio and turn it on once or twice a year. The majority of the active Advanced license holders have already upgraded to Extra since, as was pointed out many times now, any active Advanced license holder should easily pass the Extra written exam. Those active Advanced license holders that haven't upgraded yet are probably just waiting for the renewal period to come up so they can get the upgrade and renewal done in the same trip.

The ones that have something to prove wouldn't take the upgrade even if it was offered. They have no desire to be associated with such a lesser license as the (no-code) Extra.

(To be fair all Amateurs fall into the active, inactive, or something to prove buckets. It's just that the Advanced license holders stick out the most due to it's diminishing numbers.)

Propose the free upgrade for Advanced license holders to the FCC if you like, I don't think it will go anywhere. The active Amateur will upgrade on their own time if they haven't already (they've had eight years so far to do so). The inactive don't care either way. The I'm-better-than-you-young-wipper-snappers Advanced are likely to protest.

As people have pointed out the FCC is unlikely to comply since they have already shut it down once or twice by saying all an Advanced has to do to upgrade is pass the written test.

If anyone formally proposes a free upgrade for Advanced to Extra then I will file a petition to renew Advanced as General. That should put the "incentive" back into "incentive licensing".

[WA9SVD]

Why exactly should we give Advanced license holders a free upgrade? What is wrong with the status quo?

If the goal is to sunset an end-of-life license quickly then I can offer an equally valid solution. Have all Advanced be granted a General license upon renewal. That would be similar to where all Technician Plus licenses are renewed as Technician.

I figure at the current rate the Advanced license will disappear in thirty years. If my plan of renewing Advanced as General goes into effect then it'd take only ten.

The way I see it there are three kinds of Advanced license holders. The inactive, the active, and the ones that have something to prove. The inactive hold on to their license as a just-in-case measure and probably only dust off the radio and turn it on once or twice a year. The majority of the active Advanced license holders have already upgraded to Extra since, as was pointed out many times now, any active Advanced license holder should easily pass the Extra written exam. Those active Advanced license holders that haven't upgraded yet are probably just waiting for the renewal period to come up so they can get the upgrade and renewal done in the same trip.

The ones that have something to prove wouldn't take the upgrade even if it was offered. They have no desire to be associated with such a lesser license as the (no-code) Extra.

(To be fair all Amateurs fall into the active, inactive, or something to prove buckets. It's just that the Advanced license holders stick out the most due to it's diminishing numbers.)

Propose the free upgrade for Advanced license holders to the FCC if you like, I don't think it will go anywhere. The active Amateur will upgrade on their own time if they haven't already (they've had eight years so far to do so). The inactive don't care either way. The I'm-better-than-you-young-wipper-snappers Advanced are likely to protest.

As people have pointed out the FCC is unlikely to comply since they have already shut it down once or twice by saying all an Advanced has to do to upgrade is pass the written test.

If anyone formally proposes a free upgrade for Advanced to Extra then I will file a petition to renew Advanced as General. That should put the "incentive" back into "incentive licensing".


I'm afraid I have to disagree. there are plenty of Avanced license holders that are completely satisfied with the privileges they now have, and just don't feel it's worth the effort to upgrade. And THAT is their perogative, and it's not fair to label them all as having something to "prove."

And BTW, there's no "get it all done at once" renewing and upgrading; they are TWO totally different processes. You can renew on-line, via the ULS for free, sans VE or VEC assistance. To upgrade, you MUST use the VE system and pay whatever fee is requested, up to the legal maximum. (Currently, $14.00)

[N2RJ]

For that matter, AT ONE TIME, the Morse test was one minute PERFECT copy out of 5 minutes, AND sending at least one minute of perfect code at the required speed (5, 13, or 20 WPM) or higher.
NO fill in the blank, no multiple guess, and no assumption that receive ability was a guarantee of sending ability.
And if you failed either part of the Morse test, you didn't even get a chance to SEE the written exam; you just had to reapply after 30 days. there WERE no CSCE's issued.

I always thought the whole "we'll give you a chance to guess after you failed to demonstrate perfect copy" was a joke, and was the de-facto end of the morse test.

In Trinidad when I did the morse test, it was up to the examiner to show that I could send and receive morse. He sent a whole article from a newspaper as well as some prosigns. I had 100% perfect copy at 13WPM.

When I came to the US and did the 5WPM (joke of a) morse test, I also had perfect copy. But it was really easy, especially since the spacing was 5WPM, not the letters themselves.

[w3dub]

1 minute of perfect copy or 7 out of 10 for the code tests.

I remember that from the novice test in 1994. Changed the right answer to a wrong one or I would have been a ham a full 10 years before i was. Oh well, they say things happen for a reason.

[WA9SVD]

1 minute of perfect copy or 7 out of 10 for the code tests.

I remember that from the novice test in 1994. Changed the right answer to a wrong one or I would have been a ham a full 10 years before i was. Oh well, they say things happen for a reason.

NO, at one time it WAS one minute of perfect copy... no options. If you didn't get it, you were told to come back to the FCC office in a month...

But when you first tested, you shouldn't have given up. You should have just kept practicing and taken the exam again. Look at all the fun you missed out on in those 10 years. Heck, that's almost a full Solar Sunspot Cycle!

[KA4DPO]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. there are plenty of Avanced license holders that are completely satisfied with the privileges they now have, and just don't feel it's worth the effort to upgrade. And THAT is their perogative, and it's not fair to label them all as having something to "prove."

And BTW, there's no "get it all done at once" renewing and upgrading; they are TWO totally different processes. You can renew on-line, via the ULS for free, sans VE or VEC assistance. To upgrade, you MUST use the VE system and pay whatever fee is requested, up to the legal maximum. (Currently, $14.00)


It's OK, only no coders say things like that. It probably makes him feel better..:D

[w3dub]

NO, at one time it WAS one minute of perfect copy... no options. If you didn't get it, you were told to come back to the FCC office in a month...

But when you first tested, you shouldn't have given up. You should have just kept practicing and taken the exam again. Look at all the fun you missed out on in those 10 years. Heck, that's almost a full Solar Sunspot Cycle!

Eh i look at it this way. At the time.. I was what.. 14 or so? I had no money, neither did my parents. So in all likelihood.. I wouldn't have even probably ever used the ticket since I wouldn't have been able to afford the equipment, and probably would have lost interest.

When I came back in at 2003, it was a much better time. No big deal. :)

[N2RJ]

Eh i look at it this way. At the time.. I was what.. 14 or so? I had no money, neither did my parents. So in all likelihood.. I wouldn't have even probably ever used the ticket since I wouldn't have been able to afford the equipment, and probably would have lost interest.

When I came back in at 2003, it was a much better time. No big deal. :)

Money is no excuse if hams have technical knowledge.

I got licensed at 19 but was involved in the hobby for about 7 years prior. I used the school station, plus I was given a kit transceiver to build, plus broken transceivers to fix.

I had a lot of fun and learned a lot in the process. Made some money too, fixing broken TV's and radios.

[w3dub]

Good for you Ryan, sorry we can't all be as great as you.

[N2RJ]

Good for you Ryan, sorry we can't all be as great as you.

It's not about being great. It's about simple technical knowledge that every ham should know.

[WA9SVD]

It's not about being great. It's about simple technical knowledge that every ham should know.

Or at least can learn. IF the desire to learn is present.

[AC0GT]

I'm afraid I have to disagree. there are plenty of Avanced license holders that are completely satisfied with the privileges they now have, and just don't feel it's worth the effort to upgrade. And THAT is their perogative, and it's not fair to label them all as having something to "prove."

You are certainly free to disagree. I'm just going on what I have seen in FTF and online discussions. Also, thinking about this further the three types of Advanced license holders are:

- Inactive, if they do renew it's out of a just-in-case mentality.
- The holier-than-thou, they tend to brag about how they took the 13 WPM test in front of an FCC examiner.
- The ones that cannot pass the Element Four.

If there are those Advanced that have kept their license class because they are truly happy where they are then they are a rare breed. I have yet to meet one online or FTF. I have seen people remark that it would be quite novel to be one of the few that hold an Advanced license but I've seen plenty of Amateurs that would rather be operating the entire spectrum than limit themselves out of the novelty.

Advanced license holder may not admit to being in one of the above groups but a short conversation with them usually reveals that they do in fact fall into one of the groups I've defined.

Like I've said before these groups are not necessarily unique to Advanced license holder, just about any Amateur will fall into equivalent "buckets" for their class. The Advanced license class is merely unique in that they tend to stick out more than, for example, an elitist 20 WPM Extra.

And BTW, there's no "get it all done at once" renewing and upgrading; they are TWO totally different processes. You can renew on-line, via the ULS for free, sans VE or VEC assistance. To upgrade, you MUST use the VE system and pay whatever fee is requested, up to the legal maximum. (Currently, $14.00)

Well my inexperience is showing. I stand corrected.

Getting back to the topic at hand...
Why stop with upgrading Advanced to Extra? Let's upgrade General as well. As far as I am concerned if you can pass Elements Two and Three then you know all you need to know for full privileges. I think there should only be one license class. That should put an end to some of this condescending attitude I see online. Every Amateur should have the same privileges as any other Amateur.

[N9MOQ]

I think there should only be one license class. That should put an end to some of this condescending attitude I see online. Every Amateur should have the same privileges as any other Amateur.

I agree 100%!

[wb5ydk]

The Tech-Plus is a rarer breed than the Advanced: http://www.arrl.org/fcc/stats.html

I only have Tech-Plus left to earn my "Worked All License Classes" Award!!!!! :rolleyes:

[ni3b]

A friend of mine holds and Advanced amateur radio license and he does not want to upgrade to Extra because he's proud of his Advanced class license status.

Best,
Brian

[ni3b]

I think there should only be one license class. That should put an end to some of this condescending attitude I see online. Every Amateur should have the same privileges as any other Amateur.

If everyone starts with the Extra test that would eliminate 90% of today's new licensees, which means that there would be less hams who would argue or have attitudes.

Best,
Brian

[N4AUD]

A friend of mine holds and Advanced amateur radio license and he does not want to upgrade to Extra because he's proud of his Advanced class license status.

Best,
Brian

Maybe he can't pass it and that's just the excuse he uses. :)

[K8YZK]

Maybe he can't pass it and that's just the excuse he uses. :)

I disagree with you. I held a General Class license from 1967 to 1993, why,graduating from HS(girls) and cars were more important, starting a family, hard to find testing in Vietnam,Germany or Korea at the times, went QRT for awhile ,money went to bill instead of radio, and many other things..

It wasn't because I could not pass the test as code/theory were never a problem, I upgraded when I felt I wanted to upgrade.

I don't think that Advance class should be just given a free pass to Extra,but maybe a General from the 60's should as if I remember right the test was the same the difference was the code requirement, but if a ham who has a Advance is happy with it, then no problem. I knew a Novice who held it for 25yrs and she was happy with it. She had no desire or need to upgrade as the class she was at allowed her to do what she wanted.

This is not a hobby where it says you better upgrade or else.

Kurt

[N5MOA]

Other than a 1x2 or 2x1 for an Extra class, or a 2x2 for an Advanced/Extra class, I don't know what class a 2x3 or a 1x3 is. Unless they tell me "Hi, I'm ____ I'm an Advanced", I don't know, nor do I care.

I guess I've been out of the loop too long, because I'm confused.
What "status" or "prestige" comes with an Advanced class license? They passed the 13wpm code? When I got my ticket, that just meant you stopped, for whatever reason, at level 4 of 5 classes.

If Advanced class operators, or Generals or Techs, are happy with what they have, great, nobody said they had to upgrade. If they aren't happy, take the written and upgrade. I don't see the need to give someone something for nothing, it's easy enough to upgrade as it is.

[ni3b]

Maybe he can't pass it and that's just the excuse he uses. :)

I highly doubt that. He's been an Advanced class op since the 1980's.

The General test in 1993 (when I upgraded to General) was much harder than today's Extra test (I upgraded to Extra in 2007). Today's Extra test is equivalent to the Technician test of years past. With today's Extra test you should score at least 50 - 60% without even studying as most of the questions are a matter of elimination using nothing more than common sense.

Best,
Brian

[N4AUD]

I disagree with you.

Kurt

I didn't make a statement, nothing to disagree with. I was kidding in fact.

[N8UZE]

The General test in 1993 (when I upgraded to General) was much harder than today's Extra test (I upgraded to Extra in 2007). Today's Extra test is equivalent to the Technician test of years past. With today's Extra test you should score at least 50 - 60% without even studying as most of the questions are a matter of elimination using nothing more than common sense.

Best,
Brian

Hocky puck. I took all five written tests in 1992. Today's Tech test is on the same level as the combined 1992 Novice written plus 1992 Tech written. Today's General is comparable to the 1992 General written. Today's Extra is comparable to the combined 1992 Advanced and 1992 Extra. I teach classes for these licenses.

If you think the 1993 General test was hard, it was simply because you were inexperienced.

[WA9SVD]

The Tech-Plus is a rarer breed than the Advanced: http://www.arrl.org/fcc/stats.html

I only have Tech-Plus left to earn my "Worked All License Classes" Award!!!!! :rolleyes:

You are out of luck; The FCC dropped the "Tech Plus" designation on licenses several years ago, and considers all Techs as Techs now. (Or is that all Techs as Tech Plusses? ) No matter. There's no difference in privileges, and code qualification is no longer even considered.

[AC0GT]

If everyone starts with the Extra test that would eliminate 90% of today's new licensees, which means that there would be less hams who would argue or have attitudes.

Best,
Brian

That's not what I'm proposing but, for the moment, let's assume that is the case. First off Extras account for about two of ten Amateurs. Second, if we make the assumption that all Advanced license holder took what is essentially the same tests as the Extras, which is the assumption that started this thread, then that brings us to three of ten Amateurs would qualify as Extra. Third, we can throw in those that could pass the Extra exam because of experience on air or their education but didn't take the test because they are "happy where they are" which would probably bring us to about four or five out of ten Amateurs.

So, by my estimate if we were to propose that all Amateurs must be up to the level of understanding and knowledge of Extra before getting licensed then it'd be about half of the current Amateurs would not qualify.

However, I am NOT proposing that everyone be up to the level of Extra before getting a license. I was thinking that the level of testing difficulty should be more in line with General. Already half of the current Amateurs have got to or exceeded the testing necessary for General class licensing. Throw in those Technicians and Novices that could pass the test but did not because they are content where they are or have yet to find the time to upgrade then I would think that the number of current Amateurs that could pass a single license test would be very high, if not 100% it should be very close to it.

[AC0GT]

You are out of luck; The FCC dropped the "Tech Plus" designation on licenses several years ago, and considers all Techs as Techs now. (Or is that all Techs as Tech Plusses? ) No matter. There's no difference in privileges, and code qualification is no longer even considered.

The FCC didn't drop Technician Plus but grandfathered them, people still have them until they renew, expire, or upgrade. There are currently over 25000 Technician Plus Amateurs out there. Theoretically at least, there will be Technician Plus license holders to work until 2010.

[ni3b]

If you think the 1993 General test was hard, it was simply because you were inexperienced.

I never said it was hard. I was comparing it to the difficulty level of today's Extra test.

I didn't plan on taking the General test in 1993. A friend of mine woke me up early one Saturday morning and said, "Lets go, you're gonna take your General test". I probably could have passed the Advanced test at the same time but was more interested in going out for breakfast. I knew my code speed wasn't up to the 20WPM at that time so I didn't have much to shoot for.

Best,
Brian

[K8MHZ]

Uh....thanks for the compliment. I don't understand....how is it you didn't ever take the Advanced test? Your listed as Extra on QRZ. I always though to get to Extra you needed to pass Advanced first.

Now on to this....why do I need to have you hold my hand? So I can operate in the Extra sub bands???

Last time I had to worry about that was in about 1976 or so. I passed Extra a LONG time back.

Dan/W4NTI

I think this is targeted at me, if not, second 'oops'.

My first 'oops' was making an incorrect assumption (based upon your opening statements) that you held an Advanced ticket and not the Extra. My bad....sorry. I have no excuse for the error.

As for 'holding your hand' I think you misunderstood me. I have been teaching ham classes for over 4 years now. Each time one of my students have passed their tests it is a victory for me. I now have students that have went from no license all the way through Extra. So far, I have had no one fail a test they were going after. I tremendously enjoy teaching the craft and I consider it an honor to be considered an Elmer. I was just trying to offer assistance based upon my past experience. The best gift I have is being able to teach people with different types of learning capabilities. So far, so good. I didn't mean for my offer to be taken as any form of a suggestion of inferiority. Sorry if I came off in that manner.

The tests I took were Tech w/o code, General written, 5 wpm code and Extra written.

When my daughter and I were both no code Techs I heard about the plan for the FCC to drop code testing. I told her that she had the choice to sit it out, or take the code test before they dropped it. I also told her that once the code tests were gone she would never have the opportunity to take one, she could be the last of a dying breed. She said she wanted to take the test. She did, and at age 11 passed along with me in Hudsonville, Michigan. That was one of the proudest days of my life. She did better than me on the test and not only passed the 'solid copy' requirement but answered the questions with a passing grade as well. I was given the chance to take my General for free. I did not study for it other than glancing through a study guide for a few minutes and passed with no problem. The General written was the easiest ham test I ever took. About two years ago I took and passed my Extra exam. There may have been questions from the Advanced test in the Extra exam, but I never took the Advanced test, per se.

I found that 90 percent of the questions on the Extra test would never contribute to 90 percent of the people passing their tests. How many hams of any class do you know that not only knows how to use a Smith chart, but actually does so? I think 10 percent would be an estimate on the high side.

I don't think the Extra exam should be made any easier, but should be updated to include questions that would make for better operators. I was also in favor of keeping the Morse test for Extra, but that did not happen. I would have gladly sought a higher WPM cert for my Extra but that was not possible. I took the tests required and have never failed one.

Again, thanks OM for your service and friendship.

Very best of 73

Mark K8MHZ

[K8YZK]

"That's not what I'm proposing but, for the moment, let's assume that is the case. First off Extras account for about two of ten Amateurs. Second, if we make the assumption that all Advanced license holder took what is essentially the same tests as the Extras, which is the assumption that started this thread, then that brings us to three of ten Amateurs would qualify as Extra"

Problem is that the assumption is wrong. The Advance did not/do not take the same test as Extras. That is like saying a person who can fly a Cessna can also fly a 747. Both had to take a fly test.

The FCC in their wisdom decided that there is a difference and made a test for each to take. Therefore they must think that one is more knowledgeable then the other(not necessarily true). Not to get off the track but there was also a reason for the 20wpm at one time to be an Extra, let alone way back when you had to be a General for at least a year to even test for Extra.

Now look at the band charts is there much difference btwn what is available now to an Advance and what an Extra has? Bring back incentive licensing, it's good for ham radio.....

[N8UZE]

I never said it was hard. I was comparing it to the difficulty level of today's Extra test.

I didn't plan on taking the General test in 1993. A friend of mine woke me up early one Saturday morning and said, "Lets go, you're gonna take your General test". I probably could have passed the Advanced test at the same time but was more interested in going out for breakfast. I knew my code speed wasn't up to the 20WPM at that time so I didn't have much to shoot for.

Best,
Brian

Your comparison is still invalid. The 1992/1993 General test did not have Smith charts, complex impedences, phased arrays and a host of other subjects covered in the Extra.

[WA9SVD]

Your comparison is still invalid. The 1992/1993 General test did not have Smith charts, complex impedences, phased arrays and a host of other subjects covered in the Extra.

Neither did the General exam back in the mid 1960's. (Of course, us "poor" Techs at the time had to suffer through the same written exam as the Generals.)

[n4bfd]

Why not offer them up a free test on a extra upgrade? From what I hear, the Extra test is just a cake walk anyway, so I am sure any advanced class op could just waltz in and take the test double blind folded with a pencil behind their back.

[WA9SVD]

Why not offer them up a free test on a extra upgrade? From what I hear, the Extra test is just a cake walk anyway, so I am sure any advanced class op could just waltz in and take the test double blind folded with a pencil behind their back.

As stated before, they HAD that chance. If they didn't take advantage of upgrading then, when it was only a matter of taking a written exam that covered ONLY the Extra material (rather than Advanced and Extra combined) they they have no one to blame but themselves.

Except for a few sour grapes, it sounds like it's actually a non-issue. Most of the Advanced license holders are satisfied with the privileges they have, or they WOULD have upgraded liong ago. Same with a lot of died-in-the-wool Generals. they don't feel the benefit is worth the effort, and that is their perogative, and it's not fair or correct to label them as either "snobbish" or incapable of passing the exam.

[kn8k]

I held an Advance class license for 20 years. After the kids were grown I decided to take the Extra test when I found my present Vanity Call was available. By the way it wasn't that hard, I aced it.

Yes, I am a 13wpm Extra but, after raising a family and passing Extra at 54 I think working towards 20wpm won't be far off. Can't wait for my grandson to get the BUG!:rolleyes:

[K4KWH]

Why not offer them up a free test on a extra upgrade? From what I hear, the Extra test is just a cake walk anyway, so I am sure any advanced class op could just waltz in and take the test double blind folded with a pencil behind their back.

Whatever:p For the last time, *I* (and many other Advanced's) do not WANT it, and IMHO, much of it has to do with the now defunct Code test!
If some of us truly admit it, it's because we took the 13 WPM code test on our journey to Extra and 20 WPM. Call it "snobbish", call it "elitist"-----whatever....................it is the ONLY license class that carries any differential from the 13 WPM test, to the 5 WPM, to the 0 WPM Element. No, it's not THAT important, but so long as we remain Advanced, we "carry" credit fo